Categories
Options
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What’s missing this Christmas is any sign of peace and goodwil
politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What’s missing this Christmas is any sign of peace and goodwill between LEAVE and REMAIN
It’s coming up to six months since the referendum and there doesn’t seem to be much sign of peace or goodwill in the Christmas period between Remain and Leave. Remain-supporting newspaper op-ed writers vituperate the behaviour of Leavers. Leave-supporting newspaper op-ed writers screech at the perfidy of Remainers. On Twitter, the Brexit debate has become egg-bound.
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I don't think this is true. Brexit means the resumption of hundreds of wealth-sucking barriers to study and work, and it's is a huge destroyer of value for everyone. If the British decided they wanted to stay the rest of the EU would breathe an exasperated sigh of relief and everyone would go back to making money. But they won't.
Of the large US cities, I know NY, Boston, Philly, DC, Chicago, Atlanta, San Fran/Bay Area, San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Miami, Charlotte, Denver, Baltimore and LA (most of the top 25 metropolitan areas). Only 3 come close to London in terms of being the centre of all things - NY, DC and LA in that order (although LA would certainly dispute being placed lower than DC)
New York comes the closest. It has the vibe, the finance, the wealth, the restaurant scene and Broadway and the Met, plus the museums. But it is not really the centre for popular culture (music and film, although it has some TV) and it really is not a, let alone the, centre of national politics.
DC is unparalleled even by London for political importance, and has a very decent cultural and restaurant scene, but it has virtually no buzz, and business is dominated by government, military, healthcare and anything large enough to need to lobby the government. There is very little entrepreneurial happening in DC.
LA has Hollywood and TV, music but, to me, is entirely soul-less. If forced, I'd chose San Fran (not San Jose) over LA anytime. Great location, food, vibe and entrepreneurialism (both IT and synbio), with a modicum of culture.
For out and out fun, Miami is the place.
Of the EU itself.
Just wondering....seem to remember the original photo used by the Government have the hand and pencil on the ballot paper fully over remain or was this the photo used at the time?
This is psychological projection - "let's give the Leave side what we Remainers think they want". Why not instead concede what the Leavers say they want, which is national democratic self-determination (if we believe Ashcroft's poll). That self-determination includes deciding for ourselves what immigration we want - that is all that taking back control means here.
Remainers are so locked into this racism/xenophobia projection that they still can't bear to attend to the range of arguments that Leave actually put forward.
MAIN Reason for voting: 'Misinformed + stupidity/ignorance + lack of Knowledge'
Remain Voters on Leave Voters: 25
Leave Voters on Remain voters: 9
Not that you'd know that from posters on here......
The BES study suggests that Leave voters were relatively evenly split between sovereignty and immigration in their June vote (a Lord Ashcroft poll also suggested sovereignty was the top motivation). Likewise Remain voters suggested in the BES study that they voted to stay on the basis of economic considerations.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/12/16/why-other-half-vote/
In the YouGov study only 1% of Leave voters thought 'Freedom of Movement' was the main reason for Remain voters
Immigration was not on the ballot. It's a mistake to look at things in terms of 'what leavers or remainers want' and try to appease or satisfy either group.
Instead we should be looking at what the country wants...
The original driver of the truck, who has not survived, was Polish, and the inference being drawn in some quarters is that the attacker hijacked his vehicle to use as a weapon.
From the brief visits I did I preferred DC... I felt like the special things about New York I could largely get in London. DC felt much greener than New York too... Although all of these impressions are based on very limited research.
http://order-order.com/2016/12/19/telegraph-politics-team-launches-public-attack-editor/
Note these views are always attributed to "the English" or "little Englanders" of course while ignoring entirely Wales also voted to leave. Doesn't fit the meme see.....
It's Just the final and desperate tail flips of a landed fish.
Welcome by the way.
"German politicians have avoided branding the bloodshed a suspected terror attack at this stage"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38375555
Won't even "suspect a terror attack" Even the German people cannot now be so utterly blind and stupid to continue to put up with this bullshit from their own politicians?
One of Nicola Sturgeon’s handpicked Brexit advisers has poured cold water on her proposals to keep Scotland in the EU single market even if the UK leaves, only hours before she unveils them on Tuesday morning.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/19/nicola-sturgeon-brexit-adviser-pours-cold-water-single-market/amp/
There are nutters about on the leave side and similarly people on the Remain side who want to overturn the result by any means possible, but amongst the population as a whole I think they are a minority, they all need either to be sidelined from the debate, or otherwise they need to see sense.
If they were serious about their social democratic utopia, they would actually be making more use of the powers they already have. Such as proposing a good soaking of the wealthy with sumptuary levels of income tax, in order to deal with - to pick a random example out of the air - the manifold failures of the education system, of which they have been making a hash for nearly a decade now (with no discernible electoral consequences.)
Fortunately, May seems - so far - to be resisting the urge to give in to all this special pleading in order to try to shut them up. All previous experience suggests that such appeasement doesn't work.
@RupertMyers: If that were the case, the 2016 referendum would itself have been 'an attempt to thwart democracy.'
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/747000584226607104/photo/1
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/811102228190785537?s=09
Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers.
"Don't worry, I'm coming back to what Leavers, including sovereigntist Leavers, should do next in my next thread header. I wouldn't get too comfortable in your chair, it's going to be no more palatable for those Leavers than this thread is for Remainers. "
or you could just not bother and try to add a bit of seasonal goodwill to the site
If remainers thought that the vote was won because people want a fascist state and want all immigrants deported... Does that mean we have to support those things? Clearly not.
All we have to do is accept that UK will leave EU. if we can put together a new coalition ofremainers and some leavers who want to stay in or close to single market... Thats perfectly legitimate.
Eh? TMay and Hammond are many things, but are you really saying they are psycho nutjobs?
On a cheerful note - today is my birthday!
Happy Returns to any others celebrating theirs today.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/dec/20/brexit-could-make-nhs-shortage-of-nurses-worse-says-report?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Though in Leaverstan surely this is seen as a feature rather than a bug. Britain's sturdy yeoman nurses no longer have their wage rates suppressed by cheaper workers from the EU.
. Didn't seen to deter the multitude of comments on here in the few days after the ref vote saying project fear was correct.....except it wasn't
Oh yes we haven't left yet of course
Yawn!
it's also associated with miracles.
maybe you could write a thread on why you now support Leave :-)
Obviously, he's got plenty of time to prepare a uncontroversial response to that question. Think he will?
I doubt anyone is under the illusion that I like either the decision or the way in which it was won. I'm not going to be quiet about my disgust but I also need to find a way of applying my continuing principles in the new political boundaries.
The room has been trashed. It's too late to argue about why. Someone has to start tidying up the mess and if the adults don't get stuck in, the children are only going to make it worse.
Bah Humbug
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=pencil+over+referendum+ballot&rlz=1C9BKJA_enGB624GB624&oq=pencil+over+referendum+ballot&aqs=chrome..69i57.12107j0j7&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgdii=xS-ao4_mE1LCOM:;tTjSRH3du3ag1M:;tTjSRH3du3ag1M:&imgrc=tTjSRH3du3ag1M:
We would be even more semi detached and dragged along behind with rancorous exemptions.
The ultimate destination of ever closer Union is the destruction of the EU. Nation States will not shed individuality, national traits and identity to a super national body ruling them. All artificially created 'super' States implode in time.
Out in the real world there is plenty of ‘peace and goodwill between LEAVE and REMAIN’ or at least an air of optimism and general acceptance of the democratic result IMHO - PB.Com appears to be very much the exception to the rule and where half a dozen miseries squat 18 hours a day goading and gnashing their teeth. - Carry on.
But I don't see why you get to determine what the spirit of the decision was with regard to immigration.
As has been pointed out already - many didnt feel immigration was a key part of their decision.
I also don't think calling the other side children is likely to help the Christmas spirit!
Many happy returns of the day Ms Plato, hope it’s a boozy & boxset cracker of a day for you.
Have a cake themed tweet :-)
https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/811111052561776640?s=09
"Disgusting" to coin a word from the thread header.
http://tinyurl.com/ztmxlev
Edit: I think this is the one you mean - http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/574c9800130000fb073830be.jpeg
Any snowflakes complaining about this photo today? https://t.co/g6fr3R0VzX
Schools are central to building communities and it makes no sense whatsoever to reduce their ability to create social bonds between children and between adults of different faiths and no faith.
Clinton will of course be invited to Inauguration Day as the wife of a living former President.
Given what has happened, will she go? Or will she register a last feeble protest against the indignity Trump and the electorate - including the EC - have heaped on her by staying away?
If she goes, she will (a) presumably look as if she is sucking lemons all the way through the ceremony and (b) appear to be accepting a result that is exceptionally traumatic for her personally.
If she stays away, she looks like a three year old having a tantrum.
Any markets on this?
BREAKING: German SEK special police are reportedly storming a hanger at Tempelhof Airport used as a refugee shelter.
https://t.co/lrovg3rH0V
For Brexiteers there is only one result, that must stand for all time, regardless of any change in circumstance or evidence, despite that fact they worked for 40 years to overturn "the result"
The answer to your question is Rupert Myers accepts "the result" of all referenda. Why are Brexiteers so scared of democracy?
"they all need either to be sidelined from the debate"
Prof Anthony Glees says police should have acted following a US warning about potential terrorist attacks at festive events."
http://news.sky.com/story/security-expert-christmas-markets-should-have-been-shut-10702802
He's a good democrat European!
But there was no referendum on immigration; and no referendum on hard or soft brexit. So I will continue to push for my preferred brexit and i resent the idea that doing so is somehow anti-democratic.
As an aside... I don't want more referendums... Prefer our parliamentary system for the most part.
Mr rkrkrk
It's precisely that attitude as to why they lost. They simply are unable to see or contemplate any other alternative view to their own, they always know best and we should all just shut up like we have for 40 years and do as we are told. We have finally refused to shut up so we are all bulk labed as racists, placed on the remain political naughty step and scolded for our indolence to our betters simply for venturing an opinion.
This is not allowed in the glorious EU to which we should always of course just doff our caps and go on our way. We should cast aside the Union flag ( mentioned yesterday) and wrap ourselves in a tacky irrelevant blue flag safe in the knowledge the grown ups have it under control and the children need not worry.
Considering the toy throwing dummy spitter in chief is now referring to others as "children" is though highly amusing though not unexpected.
Whatever one thinks of Alastair's views, he does write exceedingly good thread headers!
However, we do urgently need new schools, a lot of them to cater for Catholic children (e.g. Poles) and they don't come cheap or easy. Speaking purely for myself from experience I would also a long sight sooner work in a school with a mild religious bent (which most of them are) than a for-profit academy chain and possibly than an LEA school. The atmosphere is better, discipline tends to be better managed (yes, really, and that's not necessarily a difference in intake either, more a question of quality of pastoral provision) and you are much less subject to passing political whims.
I haven't found either that there is any particular discrimination regarding religion in them either - indeed one CofE school I worked in for a time had a Dawkinsian atheist as head of RS, and there was almost no religious background among the children. Partly this may be a function of the area it was in - a very run-down part of Malvern - but I think it was also because the church saw it as a Christian duty to go out and provide education to that area.
Whether the Catholics see it that way I don't know, and I suspect they are the ones this policy is aimed at for the reasons I outline above. I will finish by saying I think it would be absurd to turn away a child on the grounds of religion, but if the school is at its quota that could in theory happen.
In a way, it's similar to the US. If you think that "The Coalition of the Ascendant" will permanently and inevitably shift America leftwards, it must be distressing to find out that you were wrong.
Having all by given up hope on my India to win bet by lunch... They are right back in it.
I don't think a tweet for a Tory about the Daily Torygraph undermines anything.
I saw this Timkins charactor on the Scottish politics show on television at the weekend. He was so bad that he makes David Mundell look good.
More to the point I would make a fair bet that they have the detail of Sturgeons proposal wrong. I suspect she will argue that Scotland should stay in a UK customs union (whether or not the UK stays in the EU one!) but also stay within the European single market.
That would mean all the advantages of the big market and no border with England or as David Davies said recently Ireland shouldn't have to chose between Britain or Europe. They can trade with both.
I would not feel any responsibility that it was my job to help encourage folk to jump.
That's pretty much how I feel about Brexit.
My hope is that at some point soon enough people will get fed up of rising prices that the penny will drop that they have been sold a crock and public opinion will shift.
In the meantime I will stuck with what I know to be right.
('penny will drop', see what I did there?)
And Merry Christmas Alastair. Your article and comments on the thread do show the way forward. There is a vast amount for those who believe in co-operation and the need for international action to play for. I voted Leave but I still believe it makes sense for us to continue to work very closely with our near neighbours on a wide variety of things.
The question at the end is key. What are the most important factors in the negotiations for those that voted Remain? Being in the Single Market? The Currency Union? Our security co-operation (especially after yesterday)? The ability of our economy to still bring in the skilled immigrants it needs to succeed and grow in sufficient numbers? All of these are in varying degrees still up for grabs. Remainers who engage with the process will have a bigger say and effect on the choices made than those who carp on the sidelines.
As for Ireland, they are a sovereign state and may chose their own path, Almost certainly, that will mean separate markets although it will probably mean free movement for them at least.
If indeed a lorry was hijacked in Poland and driven across to Germany, schengen can't last any further surely.
A sad end to a sad year.
That is a vacuum. The sort of thing Nicola Murray would be ashamed off.
Interesting authories are closing in quickly on other possible suspects
BBC news 8am reports.
Maybe they did 'get it wrong'. But their right to 'get it wrong' is much more important than whether the economy is 3 or 4% smaller by 2030 or not.
It is the gift that keeps giving....
Mr. Moses, I was just going to ask about that. Identity of the driver wasn't known at all last night when I went to bed.
Mr. Max, surely it's Dave?
Speaking of fake news, BBC news at ten had a piece on that. It was about as one-sided as could be. Old news = journalistic integrity, varied opinions, shared space for debate. Internet news = fake, opinions but not facts.
Reminded me a bit of their reports on the Miller case in court. On the one side, independent and objective subjects wanting to give representatives of the people the say. On the other, a relic of past times (royal prerogative) from when kings could do whatever they wanted.
Have we forgotten that the state also has the wherewithal to open new schools?
There is no getting away from the fact that encouraging more and bigger faith schools is diametrically opposed to the new-found policy of promoting a less divided society - one which I wholeheartedly support, just not by the laughable means so far proposed.
Please do carry on though, feel free and fill your boots. So long as Labour continues to disappear up its own fundament with an unelectable fool as a leader that is perfectly fine by me.
We needed a referendum because the current EU was "not on the original ballot paper"
Now that neither "hard as fuck Brexit" or "soft as shite Brexit" were on the ballot paper, to have another vote would be "undemocratic"
Brexit will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions and factional infighting as the battalions who rallied behind "Farage's Little Englander" banner to win the battle, skirmish over who gets the blame for the salted Earth left behind.
BTW if they need a new figurehead, Dan Hannon is leading that charge...
The weak state of the opposition is a problem, but another conversation.