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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Signs are that 2017 could be a big Westminster by-election yea

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Signs are that 2017 could be a big Westminster by-election year topping even 2016

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  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    First? Joyeux Noel!
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    Second! Like REMAIN.....
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    Steve Rotherham in Liverpool is also likely to trigger a by election in another Lab held seat that voted Leave.

    Should be fun.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    ONS
    GDP per head grew 0.4% in Q3, while real household spending per head grew 0.6% https://t.co/XSNUu9RUp9

    That is the unfortunate fly in the ointment of our GDP numbers; they continue to be driven by too much consumer spending.
    How can everyone afford it :) ?
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    A Thanet South by election seems nailed on if the rumour I heard that the Tories spent over £200,000 winning that seat.

    Thanet South spending limit - £15,016.38

    Total declared by Craig Mackinlay and his agent - £14,837.77
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914

    Steve Rotherham in Liverpool is also likely to trigger a by election in another Lab held seat that voted Leave.

    Should be fun.

    Could be tricky, only a 72% majority there.
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    TSE

    Breach yes - by election though? I think it's unlikely they will overturn the result.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Steve Rotherham in Liverpool is also likely to trigger a by election in another Lab held seat that voted Leave.

    Should be fun.

    Could be tricky, only a 72% majority there.
    Personal vote.

    Kippers will be very disappointed not to take the seat :lol:
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,370
    edited December 2016

    TSE

    Breach yes - by election though? I think it's unlikely they will overturn the result.

    It'll all come down to the word 'knowingly'

    Can you unknowingly overspend £185,000 plus?
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    No result from Aylesham yet?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    A Thanet South by election seems nailed on if the rumour I heard that the Tories spent over £200,000 winning that seat.

    Thanet South spending limit - £15,016.38

    Total declared by Craig Mackinlay and his agent - £14,837.77

    How soon is it likely to happen? Farage losing again would be delicious.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited December 2016

    TSE

    Breach yes - by election though? I think it's unlikely they will overturn the result.

    It'll all come down to the word 'knowingly'

    Can you unknowingly overspend £185,000 plus?
    If CCHQ was providing manpower and resources then yes, as long as he never asked where the money was coming from.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    edited December 2016

    TSE

    Breach yes - by election though? I think it's unlikely they will overturn the result.

    It'll all come down to the word 'knowingly'

    Can you unknowingly overspend £185,000 plus?
    No.
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    A Thanet South by election seems nailed on if the rumour I heard that the Tories spent over £200,000 winning that seat.

    Thanet South spending limit - £15,016.38

    Total declared by Craig Mackinlay and his agent - £14,837.77

    How soon is it likely to happen? Farage losing again would be delicious.
    Let us assume charges in January, I'd assume a trial around April/May time, trial shouldn't take that long, assuming a conviction, a by-election writ moved in June, by election in September?
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    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Is Thanet South the only seat with such an egregious overspend ?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    Both, embarrassing for the Germans that the Italians got him in the end.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    He reportedly sighted in Denmark earlier - its a security mess when he could be anywhere amongst 450m.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    TSE

    Breach yes - by election though? I think it's unlikely they will overturn the result.

    It'll all come down to the word 'knowingly'

    Can you unknowingly overspend £185,000 plus?
    You can claim to, unconvincingly.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,190
    FPT: "To many in the EU, the British public’s apparent desire to retain free trade while no longer granting freedom of movement will seem like a wish to have their cake and eat it. An alternative view, however, is that many people in the UK – including some who voted ‘Remain’ – reject the EU’s recipe for baking the cake in the first place. For them, freedom of movement as currently implemented in the EU is not a necessary concomitant to free trade.

    Ahem - has John Curtice been reading PB. Because I made this precise point back in mid-October - 11. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/14/cyclefree-with-a-mischievous-suggestion/.

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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    He ought to be posthumously executed and not given the dignity of a burial.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    No result from Aylesham yet?

    Easy Labour hold
    Lab 460 Con 283
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    PlatoSaid said:

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    He reportedly sighted in Denmark earlier - its a security mess when he could be anywhere amongst 450m.
    Well Europe is trending towards a USA type arrangement, and for freedom of movement (Schengen) is practically there already. Police cooperation between countries is essential to catch wrong'uns like this.
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    THanks Mark

    TSE are you taking odds on a 2017 by-election in South Thanet
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    edited December 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    Both, embarrassing for the Germans that the Italians got him in the end.
    Neither by the sound of it. According to Sky News it was by chance that he was stopped.

    "Italian reports say a man was killed in the shootout near the train station in Milan after he was stopped by police on a routine check in the early hours of Friday."

    And he had apparently travelled from France.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Pulpstar said:

    He ought to be posthumously executed and not given the dignity of a burial.

    Posthumously executing people really just harms the dignity of the people ordering it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    @TheWhiteRabbit Its a seat where everyone for various reasons looks like they can't win it yet someone must.

    I think UKIP would have a very decent chance tbh.
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    Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    PlatoSaid said:

    ONS
    GDP per head grew 0.4% in Q3, while real household spending per head grew 0.6% https://t.co/XSNUu9RUp9

    That is the unfortunate fly in the ointment of our GDP numbers; they continue to be driven by too much consumer spending.
    How can everyone afford it :) ?
    Itth a mythtery, as Toyah might say.

    http://tinyurl.com/zpaxetb
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    glw said:

    MaxPB said:

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    Both, embarrassing for the Germans that the Italians got him in the end.
    Neither by the sound of it. According to Sky News it was by chance that he was stopped.

    "Italian reports say a man was killed in the shootout near the train station in Milan after he was stopped by police on a routine check in the early hours of Friday."

    And he had apparently travelled from France.
    Dumb luck in that case!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    @TheUnionDivvie Ah cars ! I assumed that anyone who owned a new car had a good amount of money in the bank 8)
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    MaxPB said:

    Dumb luck in that case!

    Yeah sounds like he came from France, and Italian police believe he may have been heading to Southern Italy. He was stopped by two regular police, pulled a gun and shot one of them, the other shot him dead. Fingerprints were taken and a match made, although I suppose they had some suspicion almost immediately.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597
    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.
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    THanks Mark

    TSE are you taking odds on a 2017 by-election in South Thanet

    On there being a by election ? Or the result of a by election?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited December 2016

    BBC
    Two men arrested in Germany on suspicion of planning attack in shopping centre in Oberhausen, police say https://t.co/teBKYJlMRH
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953
    edited December 2016

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    On the other hand, if police officers were equipped with guns in the UK, there would likely be a number of innocent people killed every year by accident. And there would - from time to time - be occasions when police shot unarmed fleeing suspects in the back.

    Like all things in life, it's a question of trade offs.
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    TSE

    On there being one.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    On the other hand, if police officers were equipped with guns in the UK, there would likely be a number of innocent people killed every year by accident. And there would - from time to time - be occasions when police shot unarmed fleeing suspects in the back.

    Like all things in life, it's a question of trade offs.
    It would also be difficult for the terrorist to smuggle the weapon into the UK in the first place.
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    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    I'd wager that if our police were routinely armed, most years would see more people killed by police- rightly or wrongly- than by terrorists. It's a tough call.
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    Mr. Stopper, probably why the increasing use of the taser seems popular with both the public and police.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    On the other hand, if police officers were equipped with guns in the UK, there would likely be a number of innocent people killed every year by accident. And there would - from time to time - be occasions when police shot unarmed fleeing suspects in the back.

    Like all things in life, it's a question of trade offs.
    It would also be difficult for the terrorist to smuggle the weapon into the UK in the first place.
    The more guns there are the more guns there are.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    So it looks like the Germans didn't even know he had left the country as they were still searching for him within Germany. The Italians have really bailed Merkel out of a tough situation here.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    On the other hand, if police officers were equipped with guns in the UK, there would likely be a number of innocent people killed every year by accident. And there would - from time to time - be occasions when police shot unarmed fleeing suspects in the back.

    Like all things in life, it's a question of trade offs.
    It would also be difficult for the terrorist to smuggle the weapon into the UK in the first place.
    The more guns there are the more guns there are.
    Absolutely, I don't support arming police with guns one bit. Raising the stakes hasn't worked in the US at all.
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    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    Good riddance.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    I'd wager that if our police were routinely armed, most years would see more people killed by police- rightly or wrongly- than by terrorists. It's a tough call.
    I don't believe that would necessarily be the case, there are plenty of countries that routinely arm their police and yet have very few incidents where firearms are actually used. If we are moving towards a police service made up of graduates we ought to be able to properly train them about the use of force.

    I wouldn't favour routinely armed police, but training most police to use firearms and having the firearms in reserve might be a good idea. We currently have no ability to carry out the protective duties that the French police and military are doing during the state of emergency. I think we need to be able to match that.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    glw said:

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    I'd wager that if our police were routinely armed, most years would see more people killed by police- rightly or wrongly- than by terrorists. It's a tough call.
    I don't believe that would necessarily be the case, there are plenty of countries that routinely arm their police and yet have very few incidents where firearms are actually used. If we are moving towards a police service made up of graduates we ought to be able to properly train them about the use of force.

    I wouldn't favour routinely armed police, but training most police to use firearms and having the firearms in reserve might be a good idea. We currently have no ability to carry out the protective duties that the French police and military are doing during the state of emergency. I think we need to be able to match that.
    I think regular infantry would serve during a state of emergency, we don't have a Gendarmerie.
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    @glw

    4 people have been shot dead by police this year so far.

    Are we really saying that that number wouldn't increase substantially?
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    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    Blind luck (unlucky for the shot police officer, but he's on the mend) - not intelligence led....
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    Max PB. Yes, it's an benign and unforeseen consequence of the post-Hungerford and post-Dunblane legislation that we've had far fewer terrorist attacks in this country than I think would have been the case otherwise.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597
    You can't compare the UK to the US when considering whether to arm the police. Better comparisons are with our european neighbours with armed police forces.

    Are there a higher proportion of gun-related deaths in those countries (by both criminals and police officers) than in the UK?

    (P.S. Spotted a good typo just before posting: "gin-related deaths"!)
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    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    On current evidence, neither. You can't realistically expect to be able to individually screen everyone moving from one part of a free economy to another so the border control thing isn't relevant, and since this guy's face is on everybody's tellies it shouldn't take a lot of police cooperation for police to try to arrest the guy when they run into him.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    Re. Thanet. Surprised no-one has observed that it would also give Al Murray another opportunity to get elected.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    edited December 2016

    @glw

    4 people have been shot dead by police this year so far.

    Are we really saying that that number wouldn't increase substantially?

    My uncle was shot on duty (PC Peter Guthrie), he was investigating a burglary at a gun shop. So perhaps if gun laws had been tighter back in 1972 (No gun shop) maybe he'd be around today. Certainly the police should not be routinely armed, it creates more danger than it solves.
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    Mr. Max, indeed. The French must be a bit worried about why he was there (meeting allies?).
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    edited December 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    Both, embarrassing for the Germans that the Italians got him in the end.
    Every xenophobic cliche has just been upended. The brave, clever and efficient Italians have bailed out the timid, indolent and stupid Germans.

    Every Hollywood film for 77 years was clearly talking rubbish!

    Edit: and in today's other news for Merkel, that may be about to apply to banking as well;

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38412816?client=safari
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    You can't compare the UK to the US when considering whether to arm the police. Better comparisons are with our european neighbours with armed police forces.

    That's basically my view, our police would be as good or better than the best elsewhere in Europe. Firearm use should remain extremely rare, there would be no relaxation of the rules or consequences for breaking them.

    Besides that I don't want routine arming, but if in an emergency we do need an armed guard at every train station or whatever, it would be good if we could do that without having to rely on the army.
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    TwistedFireStopperTwistedFireStopper Posts: 2,538
    edited December 2016

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    On current evidence, neither. You can't realistically expect to be able to individually screen everyone moving from one part of a free economy to another so the border control thing isn't relevant, and since this guy's face is on everybody's tellies it shouldn't take a lot of police cooperation for police to try to arrest the guy when they run into him.
    That's a fair point, but this case is manna from heaven for EUphobes. It ticks all the boxes. Arab looking fella who is clearly a wrong 'un, allowed to roam around the EU, the Germans know about him, felt his collar a few times, but couldn't get rid of him, the stupid wanted poster with his eyes blocked out, how easy it was for him to give the Germans the slip, and how easy it was for him to travel around the EU as a Most Wanted fella, before finally shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and getting slotted by the Italians in Milan.

    It's obviously not that simple, but it makes the EU look weak, naive, and unable to protect it's own citizens.
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Tomorrow's @theheraldsun front page tonight #springst #auspol https://t.co/ckqUVAgCdC
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    Worth noting that if the terrorist had been stopped by two regular police officers in the UK he could have killed them both and escaped.

    I'd wager that if our police were routinely armed, most years would see more people killed by police- rightly or wrongly- than by terrorists. It's a tough call.
    I don't believe that would necessarily be the case, there are plenty of countries that routinely arm their police and yet have very few incidents where firearms are actually used. If we are moving towards a police service made up of graduates we ought to be able to properly train them about the use of force.

    I wouldn't favour routinely armed police, but training most police to use firearms and having the firearms in reserve might be a good idea. We currently have no ability to carry out the protective duties that the French police and military are doing during the state of emergency. I think we need to be able to match that.
    I think regular infantry would serve during a state of emergency, we don't have a Gendarmerie.
    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    edited December 2016
    GLW. Doesn't that happen already? On 8 July 2005 I happened to get off a train at Exeter St David's - and was a little disconcerted to see the station entrance being patrolled by armed police
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    On current evidence, neither. You can't realistically expect to be able to individually screen everyone moving from one part of a free economy to another so the border control thing isn't relevant, and since this guy's face is on everybody's tellies it shouldn't take a lot of police cooperation for police to try to arrest the guy when they run into him.
    That's a fair point, but this case is manna from heaven for EUphobes. It ticks all the boxes. Arab looking fella who is clearly a wrong 'un, allowed to roam around the EU, the Germans know about him, felt his collar a few times, but couldn't get rid of him, the stupid wanted poster with his eyes blocked out, how easy it was for him to give the Germans the slip, and how easy it was for him to travel around the EU as a Most Wanted fella, before finally shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and getting slotted by the Italians in Milan.

    iI's obviously not that simple, but it makes the EU look weak, naive, and unable to protect it's own citizens.
    The EU looks that way because it's true. It is weak, naive and unable to look after its own. The Polish driver should get a post-humous medal of recognition in Germany for diverting the lorry and forcing it to crash.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953
    edited December 2016
    @Morris_Dancer

    Or perhaps simply because getting from Germany to Italy involves going via either Switzerland, France or Austria.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    TOPPING said:

    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk

    The army would likely do a good job, but there is a fundamental difference between a police constable upholding the law and maintaining public order, and a soldier who is trained to fight our enemies being drafted in to fill a gap. If we have no other option, then use the army, but it would probably be better if we didn't have to do so.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    edited December 2016
    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    edited December 2016
    Mr. 1000, hello!

    Edited extra bit: longer to go via France, though. And I'm sure the French must be rather on edge given how bad the last year or two has been for them.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    Treason!

    (Literally)
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549

    GLW. Doesn't that happen already? On 8 July 2005 I happened to get off a train at Exeter St David's - and was a little disconcerted to see the station entrance being patrolled by armed police

    You do see armed police quite often at railway stations now, but from what I've read we simply do not have the numbers to match what France has been doing. God forbid we ever need to do it, but I doubt we would cope as well as France has.
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    Looks like the Berlin mass murdering terrorist has been shot and killed in Milan. Good inter EU cooperation, or poor border control?

    On current evidence, neither. You can't realistically expect to be able to individually screen everyone moving from one part of a free economy to another so the border control thing isn't relevant, and since this guy's face is on everybody's tellies it shouldn't take a lot of police cooperation for police to try to arrest the guy when they run into him.
    That's a fair point, but this case is manna from heaven for EUphobes. It ticks all the boxes. Arab looking fella who is clearly a wrong 'un, allowed to roam around the EU, the Germans know about him, felt his collar a few times, but couldn't get rid of him, the stupid wanted poster with his eyes blocked out, how easy it was for him to give the Germans the slip, and how easy it was for him to travel around the EU as a Most Wanted fella, before finally shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and getting slotted by the Italians in Milan.

    It's obviously not that simple, but it makes the EU look weak, naive, and unable to protect it's own citizens.
    Not so much "makes it look" but "shows that it is".
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk

    The army would likely do a good job, but there is a fundamental difference between a police constable upholding the law and maintaining public order, and a soldier who is trained to fight our enemies being drafted in to fill a gap. If we have no other option, then use the army, but it would probably be better if we didn't have to do so.
    But the likelihood of the government declaring a state of emergency is very low and the cost of training a Gendarmerie is very high.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    edited December 2016
    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk

    The army would likely do a good job, but there is a fundamental difference between a police constable upholding the law and maintaining public order, and a soldier who is trained to fight our enemies being drafted in to fill a gap. If we have no other option, then use the army, but it would probably be better if we didn't have to do so.
    Yes but we wouldn't be talking about a police constable, we would be talking about a robocop-type black-clad operative. No pointy hats and ello ello ellos.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited December 2016
    RTE
    BREAKING: Maltese prime minister tweets that he has been informed of potential hijack situation of internal Libyan flight diverted to Malta

    I hope this isn't like 1985

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/24/newsid_4356000/4356024.stm
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    Treason!

    (Literally)
    :D

    I'm just looking out for the long term health of the Monarchy! Republicans everywhere need to be squashed and with the passing of the Queen they will take their opportunity. Maybe they see it and the plan is for the Queen to abdicate to Charles and when she does Charles will abdicate for William who will hold it for the long term.
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    rcs1000 said:

    @Morris_Dancer

    Or perhaps simply because getting from Germany to Italy involves going via either Switzerland, France or Austria.

    Yes, but there are direct trains from Germany to Italy. {I'm inferring, perhaps without justification, that he travelled by train.)
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    rcs1000 said:

    @Morris_Dancer

    Or perhaps simply because getting from Germany to Italy involves going via either Switzerland, France or Austria.

    Yes, but there are direct trains from Germany to Italy. {I'm inferring, perhaps without justification, that he travelled by train.)
    It would be easier to get to France and travel from there. Trains out of Germany would all surely be getting checked.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    @MaxPB I doubt Charles will abdicate, the monarchy isn't a popularity contest :)
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    TOPPING said:

    Yes but we wouldn't be talking about a police constable, we would be talking about a robocop-type black-clad operative. No pointy hats and ello ello ellos.

    That's because that's essentially all we have, about 5,000 authorised firearms officers out of 120,000 police, or in that ballpark. I think we could do with a lot more, and including "regular" police for emergency situations where we potentially need to guard many, many locations simultaneously.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Pulpstar said:

    @MaxPB I doubt Charles will abdicate, the monarchy isn't a popularity contest :)

    Unfortunately it is, and if they want to keep the realm in tact then they will have realised that Wills and Kate are the key to keeping everything going. The UK will never dump the Monarchy, but Canada and Australia might.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    I disagree. Charles may have some odd ideas and a messy love life but he is conscientious. Remember Edward VII was widely written off before he became King, but he worked hard, became if anything more popular than his mother and was very effective in some fields, especially in foreign affairs.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Daily Mail
    Hijacked Libyan plane 'with 118 people on board' lands in Malta https://t.co/44CD6cR2D9 https://t.co/LSOn880zg7
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953

    That's a fair point, but this case is manna from heaven for EUphobes. It ticks all the boxes. Arab looking fella who is clearly a wrong 'un, allowed to roam around the EU, the Germans know about him, felt his collar a few times, but couldn't get rid of him, the stupid wanted poster with his eyes blocked out, how easy it was for him to give the Germans the slip, and how easy it was for him to travel around the EU as a Most Wanted fella, before finally shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and getting slotted by the Italians in Milan.

    It's obviously not that simple, but it makes the EU look weak, naive, and unable to protect it's own citizens.

    I look at it like this, and you are free to disagree:

    The cost of securing long land borders is non-negligible, either in terms of the amount of manpower required, and in terms of the frictional costs on people in getting from a-to-b. Not only that, but long land borders are inherently porous. You can ski from Italy into Switzerland, for example, and no fence or wall is going to stop that.

    So, as a country you have a choice: do you want to take the significant economic costs, inconvenience law abiding citizens, and which may still have only a limited effect on terrorists' ability to cross borders.

    It's like this: we could cut road deaths 40% over night by dramatically reducing speed limits in the UK. But as a society there's been a tacit acceptance that the current limits have an acceptable casualty vs economics vs convenience trade off. The same is true of terrorism and crime.

    In the early 1980s, with a major terrorist problem in Northern Ireland, and with IRA members flitting over the (Schengen-like) border without difficulty, Mrs Thatcher faced the same choice. Impose border controls and build a wall - with serious economic consequences on an already economically depressed region - or allow the terrorists to easily cross the border. They decided that the border could not be efficiently sealed, and therefore the costs were not worth it.

    Now, you are free to say the countries of the Schengen zone (which, of course, includes Switzerland, who voted in a referendum to join), should prioritise prevention of terrorism. But I suspect they'll make the same calculation Mrs Thatcher made, and - except where there are obvious choke points that can be easily policed - leave the borders open.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    I disagree. Charles may have some odd ideas and a messy love life but he is conscientious. Remember Edward VII was widely written off before he became King, but he worked hard, became if anything more popular than his mother and was very effective in some fields, especially in foreign affairs.
    Well Charles has a lot to prove, I hope he is up to it as well.
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk

    The army would likely do a good job, but there is a fundamental difference between a police constable upholding the law and maintaining public order, and a soldier who is trained to fight our enemies being drafted in to fill a gap. If we have no other option, then use the army, but it would probably be better if we didn't have to do so.
    Yes but we wouldn't be talking about a police constable, we would be talking about a robocop-type black-clad operative. No pointy hats and ello ello ellos.
    My mate used to be an Armed response copper about 10 years ago. Then, he had a glock pistol, a taser, some pepper spray, and a HK machine pistol with a clear magazine and, I think, 9 bullets in the magazine. He always said that he wasn't trained to be in a gunfight, that wasn't what he was trained for. It was a double tap to the centre mass to stop an armed baddie, usually wielding a knife. He still talks to his old buddies. He wouldn't recognise they're training now.
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes but we wouldn't be talking about a police constable, we would be talking about a robocop-type black-clad operative. No pointy hats and ello ello ellos.

    That's because that's essentially all we have, about 5,000 authorised firearms officers out of 120,000 police, or in that ballpark. I think we could do with a lot more, and including "regular" police for emergency situations where we potentially need to guard many, many locations simultaneously.
    And a great many officers won't do firearms training because of the post event witch-hunt against them.

    It's so out of balance.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,190

    On current evidence, neither. You can't realistically expect to be able to individually screen everyone moving from one part of a free economy to another so the border control thing isn't relevant, and since this guy's face is on everybody's tellies it shouldn't take a lot of police cooperation for police to try to arrest the guy when they run into him.
    That's a fair point, but this case is manna from heaven for EUphobes. It ticks all the boxes. Arab looking fella who is clearly a wrong 'un, allowed to roam around the EU, the Germans know about him, felt his collar a few times, but couldn't get rid of him, the stupid wanted poster with his eyes blocked out, how easy it was for him to give the Germans the slip, and how easy it was for him to travel around the EU as a Most Wanted fella, before finally shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and getting slotted by the Italians in Milan.

    It's obviously not that simple, but it makes the EU look weak, naive, and unable to protect it's own citizens.
    Not so much "makes it look" but "shows that it is".
    Exactly so. It is all very well talking about the advantages of FoM - and there are plenty - but it also allows freedom of movement of terrorists. Now we cannot stop all such movement. But one thing we can do - and should be doing - is not letting such people into Europe in the first place.

    Tunisia is not a country from which people need to claim asylum.

    Someone who comes to Europe, commits arson and goes to prison should have been sent back to Tunisia not allowed to roam freely around Europe.

    Someone who was on the watch list of the German security services and was heard announcing that he wanted to be a suicide bomber should have been picked up.

    Someone who lost his claim for asylum (why was such a claim even entertained?) should not have been given "leave to remain". Why, in God's name, would you give leave to remain to a convicted criminal who has no claim to asylum? What possible advantage to Europe - or any country within it - is there in having such a person within its borders?

    At all stages the authorities have been weak, have turned a blind eye to the risks posed and have passed the problem onto others.

    I have some sympathy for the German intelligence services. Their chancellor allows into the country a mass of people from areas of great instability, at a time when terrorism and extremism is rife and when terror organisations have said they will try to smuggle operatives in, in a short space of time and with little ability to do any sort of vetting and they are then expected to protect the German people from the consequences of a hurried and ill-thought out decision.

  • Options
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    ydoethur said:

    Somebody was asking about Prince Charles being more visible on the last thread.

    One way and another, the last few weeks has looked suspiciously like the start of a handing over process.

    Which makes me wonder about this reported cold the Queen had. She was feeing unwell so decided not to make a medium length journey by train. OK, fair enough. But she was fit the following day to travel by helicopter? That really doesn't make sense to me. I can imagine no circumstances where somebody would be too ill to travel in comfort at a moderate speed on a luxury train, then immediately after well enough to travel in a rough, noisy and probably cramped helicopter. The advantage however is that it is very quick - so somebody with a long term condition is not away from treatment for long,

    Perhaps we're having the ground prepared for an announcement about either her or Prince Philip.

    Hopefully Charles had the good sense to abdicate to William quickly. He is a republican's best friend. I wouldn't be surprised to see Canada and Australia leave the realm under Charlie's watch. William would be unbelievably popular though, even more than the Queen.
    I disagree. Charles may have some odd ideas and a messy love life but he is conscientious. Remember Edward VII was widely written off before he became King, but he worked hard, became if anything more popular than his mother and was very effective in some fields, especially in foreign affairs.
    Well Charles has a lot to prove, I hope he is up to it as well.
    The biggest problem Charles will face is that he's not his mother. It's going to be a major culture shock - 90% of the population don't remember a monarch other than Liz.

    Even the national anthem is going to change!
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited December 2016
    Plato (50,000 posts)

    "Tomorrow's @theheraldsun front page tonight #springst #auspol https://t.co/ckqUVAgCdC"

    Do you belong to some fascist or islamaphobic website so you can distribute this sort of shit before anyone else?
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    That's a fair point, but this case is manna from heaven for EUphobes. It ticks all the boxes. Arab looking fella who is clearly a wrong 'un, allowed to roam around the EU, the Germans know about him, felt his collar a few times, but couldn't get rid of him, the stupid wanted poster with his eyes blocked out, how easy it was for him to give the Germans the slip, and how easy it was for him to travel around the EU as a Most Wanted fella, before finally shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and getting slotted by the Italians in Milan.

    It's obviously not that simple, but it makes the EU look weak, naive, and unable to protect it's own citizens.

    I look at it like this, and you are free to disagree:

    The cost of securing long land borders is non-negligible, either in terms of the amount of manpower required, and in terms of the frictional costs on people in getting from a-to-b. Not only that, but long land borders are inherently porous. You can ski from Italy into Switzerland, for example, and no fence or wall is going to stop that.

    So, as a country you have a choice: do you want to take the significant economic costs, inconvenience law abiding citizens, and which may still have only a limited effect on terrorists' ability to cross borders.

    It's like this: we could cut road deaths 40% over night by dramatically reducing speed limits in the UK. But as a society there's been a tacit acceptance that the current limits have an acceptable casualty vs economics vs convenience trade off. The same is true of terrorism and crime.

    In the early 1980s, with a major terrorist problem in Northern Ireland, and with IRA members flitting over the (Schengen-like) border without difficulty, Mrs Thatcher faced the same choice. Impose border controls and build a wall - with serious economic consequences on an already economically depressed region - or allow the terrorists to easily cross the border. They decided that the border could not be efficiently sealed, and therefore the costs were not worth it.

    Now, you are free to say the countries of the Schengen zone (which, of course, includes Switzerland, who voted in a referendum to join), should prioritise prevention of terrorism. But I suspect they'll make the same calculation Mrs Thatcher made, and - except where there are obvious choke points that can be easily policed - leave the borders open.
    That's perfectly reasonable. I don't disagree at all. I feel my point still stands, though. As I said upthread, I think more people would be killed by routinely armed coppers than by terrorists in most years, so I understand all about cost/benefit. The EU still looks weak, naive and unable to protect it's citizens today, though-even if it's not that simple.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    glw said:

    TOPPING said:

    Yes. There is a hierarchy of aid by the military under the categorisation of Military Aid to the Civil Authorities. Military Aid to the Civil Power (MACP) would be the appropriate deployment in such a situation.

    https://gov.uk/government/publications/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk/2010-to-2015-government-policy-armed-forces-support-for-activities-in-the-uk

    The army would likely do a good job, but there is a fundamental difference between a police constable upholding the law and maintaining public order, and a soldier who is trained to fight our enemies being drafted in to fill a gap. If we have no other option, then use the army, but it would probably be better if we didn't have to do so.
    Yep. The army don't have an illustrious history in acting as policemen; the roles are fundamentally different.

    If they are called to perform such duty, you have to acknowledge that there is a high chance of mistakes. Hence, they should only be used when you can be fairly sure (not certain) that the risk they are on the streets to prevent is greater than the risks from mistakes.

    Much of the above depends on the type of emergency as well: if it is one where the population is in favour of them being there, the risks are much reduced over a NI-style situation.

    As an aside, this morning's news is one of the reasons I'm nervous about stop and search being weakened. Police should be able to stop anyone on a hunch, without having to have perfectly good cause. On the other hand, individual policemen doing it too frequently, or for reasons other than public safety, should be weeded out.

    It's a difficult call.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Uber are suffering a PR nightmare at the moment. The amount they are subsidising rides is staggering.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    I always considered the German police to be efficient robots and the Italian plod to be the Keystone cops, more interested in drinking wine and chatting up women. Perhaps the stereotypes were totally wrong.

    Not good news for Merkel despite her doing and saying the right things now.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Cyclefree said:

    On current evidence, neither. You can't realistically expect to be able to individually screen everyone moving from one part of a free economy to another so the border control thing isn't relevant, and since this guy's face is on everybody's tellies it shouldn't take a lot of police cooperation for police to try to arrest the guy when they run into him.
    That's a fair point, but this case is manna from heaven for EUphobes. It

    It's obviously not that simple, but it makes the EU look weak, naive, and unable to protect it's own citizens.
    Not so much "makes it look" but "shows that it is".
    Exactly so. It is all very well talking about the advantages of FoM - and there are plenty - but it also allows freedom of movement of terrorists. Now we cannot stop all such movement. But one thing we can do - and should be doing - is not letting such people into Europe in the first place.

    Tunisia is not a country from which people need to claim asylum.

    Someone who comes to Europe, commits arson and goes to prison should have been sent back to Tunisia not allowed to roam freely around Europe.

    Someone who was on the watch list of the German security services and was heard announcing that he wanted to be a suicide bomber should have been picked up.

    Someone who lost his claim for asylum (why was such a claim even entertained?) should not have been given "leave to remain". Why, in God's name, would you give leave to remain to a convicted criminal who has no claim to asylum? What possible advantage to Europe - or any country within it - is there in having such a person within its borders?

    At all stages the authorities have been weak, have turned a blind eye to the risks posed and have passed the problem onto others.

    I have some sympathy for the German intelligence services. Their chancellor allows into the country a mass of people from areas of great instability, at a time when terrorism and extremism is rife and when terror organisations have said they will try to smuggle operatives in, in a short space of time and with little ability to do any sort of vetting and they are then expected to protect the German people from the consequences of a hurried and ill-thought out decision.

    The problem was that the Tunisians refused to accept him ashe had no papers, a fairly common spanner in the works for deportations. Deporting to MENA countries is famously difficult.

    It is not entirely surprising that he went on the run to Italy, having lived there for 4 years before moving to Germany.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    CD13 said:

    I always considered the German police to be efficient robots and the Italian plod to be the Keystone cops, more interested in drinking wine and chatting up women. Perhaps the stereotypes were totally wrong.

    Not good news for Merkel despite her doing and saying the right things now.

    On the other hand, "Europe" caught him.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,190
    rcs1000 said:


    I look at it like this, and you are free to disagree:

    The cost of securing long land borders is non-negligible, either in terms of the amount of manpower required, and in terms of the frictional costs on people in getting from a-to-b. Not only that, but long land borders are inherently porous. You can ski from Italy into Switzerland, for example, and no fence or wall is going to stop that.

    So, as a country you have a choice: do you want to take the significant economic costs, inconvenience law abiding citizens, and which may still have only a limited effect on terrorists' ability to cross borders.

    It's like this: we could cut road deaths 40% over night by dramatically reducing speed limits in the UK. But as a society there's been a tacit acceptance that the current limits have an acceptable casualty vs economics vs convenience trade off. The same is true of terrorism and crime.

    In the early 1980s, with a major terrorist problem in Northern Ireland, and with IRA members flitting over the (Schengen-like) border without difficulty, Mrs Thatcher faced the same choice. Impose border controls and build a wall - with serious economic consequences on an already economically depressed region - or allow the terrorists to easily cross the border. They decided that the border could not be efficiently sealed, and therefore the costs were not worth it.

    Now, you are free to say the countries of the Schengen zone (which, of course, includes Switzerland, who voted in a referendum to join), should prioritise prevention of terrorism. But I suspect they'll make the same calculation Mrs Thatcher made, and - except where there are obvious choke points that can be easily policed - leave the borders open.
    That all makes sense. But it makes it imperative to have far more effective controls at your external borders and an effective system of removing those who get in but you don't want. Europe has abandoned the last two and that will, increasingly, call into question the desirability of having open borders within it when attacks such as this happen. What, after all, was the first thing France did when the Bataclan attacks happened? It sought to seal its borders.

    That is what will increasingly happen if we don't control who comes into Europe.

    Re NI, the borders weren't closed for all the reasons you describe. But the security services embarked on a pretty serious and, ultimately, successful campaign to make it difficult for the terrorists to operate. It's not at all clear that the same is being done by all the relevant European authorities in relation to the threat the whole of Europe faces from Islamist terrorism.

  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    The problem was that the Tunisians refused to accept him ashe had no papers, a fairly common spanner in the works for deportations. Deporting to MENA countries is famously difficult.

    It is not entirely surprising that he went on the run to Italy, having lived there for 4 years before moving to Germany.

    Handcuffs and stick him on a boat. Fuck what the Tunisians say and what any human rights bullshit lawyers say.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    TOPPING said:

    CD13 said:

    I always considered the German police to be efficient robots and the Italian plod to be the Keystone cops, more interested in drinking wine and chatting up women. Perhaps the stereotypes were totally wrong.

    Not good news for Merkel despite her doing and saying the right things now.

    On the other hand, "Europe" caught him.
    Haha that's brilliant.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,985
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:

    @MaxPB I doubt Charles will abdicate, the monarchy isn't a popularity contest :)

    Unfortunately it is, and if they want to keep the realm in tact then they will have realised that Wills and Kate are the key to keeping everything going. The UK will never dump the Monarchy, but Canada and Australia might.
    Australia will be a republic within 5 years of QE2 going under the sod.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    Once again the Germans avoid having to do anything "nasty" like shooting their most wanted criminal suspect.
  • Options
    Hedge End Wildern (Eastleigh) result:
    LDEM: 64.5% (+22.5)
    CON: 25.2% (-2.4)
    LAB: 10.3% (-1.7)
    LDem HOLD

    Cranleigh West (Waverley) result:
    CON: 58.7% (+2.9)
    LDEM: 29.1% (-1.0)
    UKIP: 12.1% (+12.1)
    Con HOLD.

    Aylesham ward of Dover Council
    Lab HOLD
  • Options
    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    AndyJS said:

    Once again the Germans avoid having to do anything "nasty" like shooting their most wanted criminal suspect.

    I saw a Google map graphic on Twitter that showed the top ten worst reported crimes committed by migrants - it was appalling. We'd never tolerate it here.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Topping,

    "On the other hand, "Europe" caught him."

    Hmm ... Came to Italy from Tunisia, served a long jail sentence, moved over to Germany and applied for asylum (who from?), watched by security forces until they got bored with him, commits atrocity, wanders back to Italy despite Germany's best efforts, and is shot dead in a "fortunate" meeting with Police. It seems that the EU was his playground.

    If this were a black and white film by Mack Sennet, we could all applaud.

    Yes, I know you were joking.
This discussion has been closed.