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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Pre-Christmas voodoo surveys might have had a big move against BREXIT but that’s not been picked in proper polls

Express & Star Dec 24 2016

Read the full story here

tlg86

First like Leave.

williamglenn

While these polls aren't reliable gauges of opinion, they do provide a measure of enthusiasm so perhaps the significant thing is that even in an area that was strongly Leave, it's the Remainers who are the ones who still care about the issue and believe Brexit to be the wrong choice.

IanB2

Third like Boris

tlg86

williamglenn said:

While these polls aren't reliable gauges of opinion, they do provide a measure of enthusiasm so perhaps the significant thing is that even in an area that was strongly Leave, it's the Remainers who are the ones who still care about the issue and believe Brexit to be the wrong choice.

Hardly a surprise.

SouthamObserver

All these polls tell us is that there is now a pro-EU sub-set of the electorate that is as motivated and engaged as the anti-EU sub-set used to be. But it's a small minority.

Andrew

Not only multi-voting, but all it takes is this to be posted to some active forum or facebook group, and suddenly one side can swamp the other. Or if someone's really keen, they can buy access to a zombie network and suddenly they have 100k votes.

williamglenn

tlg86 said:

williamglenn said:

While these polls aren't reliable gauges of opinion, they do provide a measure of enthusiasm so perhaps the significant thing is that even in an area that was strongly Leave, it's the Remainers who are the ones who still care about the issue and believe Brexit to be the wrong choice.

Hardly a surprise.

But it does show that Labour entering a crowded market to become the Red Brexit party in an attempt to hold on to their constituencies may be the wrong move.

TCPoliticalBetting

Oh look another anti-Brexit article. Just like February to June 23rd.

In case any one missed real good news post Brexit. "UK third quarter GDP growth revised up to 0.6%"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38413787
"Ruth Gregory, UK economist at Capital Economics, said the figures suggested that June's Brexit vote had had little impact on the economy and that growth in the final quarter of the year would be positive."

foxinsoxuk

Brexit is happening. Red Brexit is about keeping the workers protection aspects of the EU, even enhancing them, not signing suckers deals with Trump but coming to an amicable agreement with the Single Market.

Malmesbury

Polling question - what is the biggest "miss" recorded for a national level poll, by a modern, real pollster?

i.e. Yougov says 40%, result is 45%...

edmundintokyo

SouthamObserver said:

All these polls tell us is that there is now a pro-EU sub-set of the electorate that is as motivated and engaged as the anti-EU sub-set used to be. But it's a small minority.

It could be like 1 guy

foxinsoxuk

SouthamObserver said:

All these polls tell us is that there is now a pro-EU sub-set of the electorate that is as motivated and engaged as the anti-EU sub-set used to be. But it's a small minority.

It also shown no honeymoon effect for Brexit, something that happens post most new governments, or plebiscites.

TCPoliticalBetting

Iain Martin ✔ @iainmartin1
Mervyn "Brown boom, narrow inflation targeting, ignoring banks" King predicts Brexit success. Now even I find that worrying...

TCPoliticalBetting

No mention of John Lewis cutting benefits to help fund this.

John Lewis boss: "higher minimum wage should boost productivity
Sir Charlie Mayfield says national living wage may encourage more automation, spurring economic growth"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/25/john-lewis-minimum-wage-productivity-sir-charlie-mayfield

TCPoliticalBetting

A pro Brexit article and a real news story!

http://order-order.com/2016/12/26/source-told-laura-k-queen-did-back-brexit-at-private-lunch/
"Queen told people at a private lunch that she thinks that we should leave the EU."

HurstLlama

Oh, for goodness sake! For years anyone trying to attach any importance to such voodoo polls have been hooted off this site, not least by Mike Smithson. Now, for some reason, they are deemed worthy of serious attention and are even held by some to actually tell us something of worth.

TCPoliticalBetting

HurstLlama said:

Oh, for goodness sake! For years anyone trying to attach any importance to such voodoo polls have been hooted off this site, not least by Mike Smithson. Now, for some reason, they are deemed worthy of serious attention and are even held by some to actually tell us something of worth.

Yes but it is anti-Brexit so it is allowed.

DecrepitJohnL

TCPoliticalBetting said:

No mention of John Lewis cutting benefits to help fund this.

John Lewis boss: "higher minimum wage should boost productivity
Sir Charlie Mayfield says national living wage may encourage more automation, spurring economic growth"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/25/john-lewis-minimum-wage-productivity-sir-charlie-mayfield

More automation, fewer jobs. That is the danger. There was a piece from a Nobel Prize-winning economist in the FT about it the other day (automation not globalisation is the big threat). It is paywalled but linked from here.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/nobel-economist-angus-deaton-on-how-robotics-threatens-jobs-2016-12

There seems to be a growing academic consensus around this analysis. The City boys may know more.

nunu

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Oh look another anti-Brexit article. Just like February to June 23rd.

In case any one missed real good news post Brexit. "UK third quarter GDP growth revised up to 0.6%"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38413787
"Ruth Gregory, UK economist at Capital Economics, said the figures suggested that June's Brexit vote had had little impact on the economy and that growth in the final quarter of the year would be positive."

0.6% you say.........so I hit nail on head.

TheScreamingEagles

HurstLlama said:

Oh, for goodness sake! For years anyone trying to attach any importance to such voodoo polls have been hooted off this site, not least by Mike Smithson. Now, for some reason, they are deemed worthy of serious attention and are even held by some to actually tell us something of worth.

I wish people would read the piece. Mike's saying they are rubbish and we should ignore them and focus on real polling. What do you think Mike meant when he writes

But the problem with these surveys is that they are not and do not seek to be representative of opinion. Anybody can participate online and it does not take a computer genius to find ways of multi-voting.

MaxPB

TheScreamingEagles said:

HurstLlama said:

Oh, for goodness sake! For years anyone trying to attach any importance to such voodoo polls have been hooted off this site, not least by Mike Smithson. Now, for some reason, they are deemed worthy of serious attention and are even held by some to actually tell us something of worth.

I wish people would read the piece. Mike's saying they are rubbish and we should ignore them and focus on real polling. What do you think Mike meant when he writes

But the problem with these surveys is that they are not and do not seek to be representative of opinion. Anybody can participate online and it does not take a computer genius to find ways of multi-voting.

Why have the header in the first place? Seems to just be griefing for the sake of it.

TCPoliticalBetting

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

All these polls tell us is that there is now a pro-EU sub-set of the electorate that is as motivated and engaged as the anti-EU sub-set used to be. But it's a small minority.

It also shown no honeymoon effect for Brexit, something that happens post most new governments, or plebiscites.

Only if you ignore the increase in the Conservative party's poll ratings....

TCPoliticalBetting

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HurstLlama said:

Oh, for goodness sake! For years anyone trying to attach any importance to such voodoo polls have been hooted off this site, not least by Mike Smithson. Now, for some reason, they are deemed worthy of serious attention and are even held by some to actually tell us something of worth.

I wish people would read the piece. Mike's saying they are rubbish and we should ignore them and focus on real polling. What do you think Mike meant when he writes

But the problem with these surveys is that they are not and do not seek to be representative of opinion. Anybody can participate online and it does not take a computer genius to find ways of multi-voting.

Why have the header in the first place? Seems to just be griefing for the sake of it.

Why not run with:-
1. Mervyn King views.
2. GDP revised up.
3. Queen wanted Brexit
etc

Just because OGH and TSE voted for REMAIN?

TheScreamingEagles

Because Mike regularly does threads on the uselessness of Voodoo polls

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/11/23/daily-express-reporting-new-poll-with-ukip-in-second-place/

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/02/09/polly-toynbee-pa-the-guardian-and-a-voodoo-poll/

isam

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

isam

TheScreamingEagles said:

Because Mike regularly does threads on the uselessness of Voodoo polls

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/11/23/daily-express-reporting-new-poll-with-ukip-in-second-place/

http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2012/02/09/polly-toynbee-pa-the-guardian-and-a-voodoo-poll/

I thought you said Mike could speak for himself the other day when people asked why a worse result for Remain in Richmond was evidence of Remain voters being more likely to vote in By Elections?

brokenwheel

williamglenn said:

While these polls aren't reliable gauges of opinion, they do provide a measure of enthusiasm so perhaps the significant thing is that even in an area that was strongly Leave, it's the Remainers who are the ones who still care about the issue and believe Brexit to be the wrong choice.

It is an internet voodoo poll; I'm pretty sure most of the respondents had never heard of Wolverhampton, let alone the Express and Star, before being redirected there by a post on a remoaner social media page.

PlatoSaid

brokenwheel said:

williamglenn said:

While these polls aren't reliable gauges of opinion, they do provide a measure of enthusiasm so perhaps the significant thing is that even in an area that was strongly Leave, it's the Remainers who are the ones who still care about the issue and believe Brexit to be the wrong choice.

It is an internet voodoo poll, I'm pretty sure most of the respondents had never heard of Wolverhampton let alone the Express and Star before being redirected there by a post on a remoaner social media page.

Like many others here - I've seen dozens of examples of poll pile ons by fans, the ideologue or axe grinder.

I'd no idea it was so prevalent until seeing TV show fan sites where readers spend hours a day multiple voting for popular wins.

TOPPING

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

isam

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

AlastairMeeks

Why did the Express and Star use flags that way round?

SandyRentool

'The Engineer' run voodoo polls all the time, usually offering a non-comprehensive list of options, and then wondering why 'none of the above' wins. While the results are of course meaningless, the comments are usually more entertaining - whatever the question someone normally says that Thorium reactor technology offers the answer, while others bang on about the 'myth' of man-made climate change. I suppose it is a bit like PB for men in short sleeved shirts.

ThreeQuidder

foxinsoxuk said:

SouthamObserver said:

All these polls tell us is that there is now a pro-EU sub-set of the electorate that is as motivated and engaged as the anti-EU sub-set used to be. But it's a small minority.

It also shown no honeymoon effect for Brexit, something that happens post most new governments, or plebiscites.

That's because nothing has actually happened yet and because a few rich anti-democrats are trying their best to overturn the result. Assuming they fail, expect a switch after A50 is triggered.

williamglenn

TCPoliticalBetting said:

3. Queen wanted Brexit

There's no evidence for this. At most the second hand reports of the dinner show that she was playing devil's advocate and question whether leaving was really so hard to do.

williamglenn

AlastairMeeks said:

Why did the Express and Star use flags that way round?

Because Remain is the patriotic choice.

Charles

MaxPB said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HurstLlama said:

Oh, for goodness sake! For years anyone trying to attach any importance to such voodoo polls have been hooted off this site, not least by Mike Smithson. Now, for some reason, they are deemed worthy of serious attention and are even held by some to actually tell us something of worth.

I wish people would read the piece. Mike's saying they are rubbish and we should ignore them and focus on real polling. What do you think Mike meant when he writes

But the problem with these surveys is that they are not and do not seek to be representative of opinion. Anybody can participate online and it does not take a computer genius to find ways of multi-voting.

Why have the header in the first place? Seems to just be griefing for the sake of it.

Title of the piece is all a lot of people will read which gets Mike's view over

PlatoSaid

SandyRentool said:

'The Engineer' run voodoo polls all the time, usually offering a non-comprehensive list of options, and then wondering why 'none of the above' wins. While the results are of course meaningless, the comments are usually more entertaining - whatever the question someone normally says that Thorium reactor technology offers the answer, while others bang on about the 'myth' of man-made climate change. I suppose it is a bit like PB for men in short sleeved shirts.

Theuniondivvie

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

Cyclefree

DecrepitJohnL said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

No mention of John Lewis cutting benefits to help fund this.

John Lewis boss: "higher minimum wage should boost productivity
Sir Charlie Mayfield says national living wage may encourage more automation, spurring economic growth"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/25/john-lewis-minimum-wage-productivity-sir-charlie-mayfield

More automation, fewer jobs. That is the danger. There was a piece from a Nobel Prize-winning economist in the FT about it the other day (automation not globalisation is the big threat). It is paywalled but linked from here.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/nobel-economist-angus-deaton-on-how-robotics-threatens-jobs-2016-12

There seems to be a growing academic consensus around this analysis. The City boys may know more.

You don't need Nobel prize winning economists to tell you this. I wrote about it in my last thread header -
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/11/15/the-robots-are-coming/

**buffs nails**

And now I'm off for a walk. It is a glorious day here in North London. Too glorious to waste loafing around inside, though my brood are seemingly intent on doing just that.

isam

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

CD13

Mr Glenn,

"the significant thing is that even in an area that was strongly Leave, it's the Remainers who are the ones who still care about the issue."

Poor deluded fools. They think that sqweaming and sqweaming until they're sick will make a difference. Aww ... I hope they all have a merry Christmas and a happy new, very new Brexit year.

isam

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

williamglenn

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

isam

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

Surely its worth leaving first to see? That's what the vote was for. If its so shit we can always rejoin when the Lib Dems get back in government

People that wanted to remain saying leaving is a disaster before its happened is hardly reason to rerun the whole thing.

TwistedFireStopper

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

In your opinion.

ThreeQuidder

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

You lost that argument six months ago.

CD13

Mr Isam,

Why condemn the toddlers who complain that their toy has been taken away? When they grow up, they'll understand that it was all for the best. Into our lives, some rain must fall but it's the first time they've got drenched. They'll learn and mature from it (hopefully).

isam

TwistedFireStopper said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

In your opinion.

People who don't believe in the law of Supply and Demand are obvious fans of Big State deciding things rather than the masses

williamglenn

isam said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

Surely its worth leaving first to see?

If only we had a plan...

ThreeQuidder

isam said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

Surely its worth leaving first to see? That's what the vote was for. If its so shit we can always rejoin when the Lib Dems get back in government

People that wanted to remain saying leaving is a disaster before its happened is hardly reason to rerun the whole thing.

He knows that the federal single European government that he so desires is massively unpopular with the British people as a whole, and knows that there's no chance of a Rejoin vote when that means the euro and Schengen. So he anti-democratically wants to get there by stealth.

williamglenn

ThreeQuidder said:

isam said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

Surely its worth leaving first to see? That's what the vote was for. If its so shit we can always rejoin when the Lib Dems get back in government

People that wanted to remain saying leaving is a disaster before its happened is hardly reason to rerun the whole thing.

He knows that the federal single European government that he so desires is massively unpopular with the British people as a whole, and knows that there's no chance of a Rejoin vote when that means the euro and Schengen. So he anti-democratically wants to get there by stealth.

Says the poster whose moniker is an homage to the subversion of a democratic election...

ThreeQuidder

CD13 said:

Mr Isam,

Why condemn the toddlers who complain that their toy has been taken away? When they grow up, they'll understand that it was all for the best. Into our lives, some rain must fall but it's the first time they've got drenched. They'll learn and mature from it (hopefully).

That's the key point, isn't it? Some of these people haven't yet grasped that the fundamental quality of democracy is that sometimes you lose.

ThreeQuidder

williamglenn said:

ThreeQuidder said:

isam said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

Surely its worth leaving first to see? That's what the vote was for. If its so shit we can always rejoin when the Lib Dems get back in government

People that wanted to remain saying leaving is a disaster before its happened is hardly reason to rerun the whole thing.

He knows that the federal single European government that he so desires is massively unpopular with the British people as a whole, and knows that there's no chance of a Rejoin vote when that means the euro and Schengen. So he anti-democratically wants to get there by stealth.

Says the poster whose moniker is an homage to the subversion of a democratic election...

Not at all. I voted against Corbyn because him winning would have been bad for the Labour Party and therefore bad for the country.

isam

williamglenn said:

isam said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

Surely its worth leaving first to see?

If only we had a plan...

Irrelevant

TCPoliticalBetting

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

3. Queen wanted Brexit

There's no evidence for this. At most the second hand reports of the dinner show that she was playing devil's advocate and question whether leaving was really so hard to do.

"Well, BBC political editor Laura Kuennsberg has revealed a source came to her with the same story before she was scooped by the Sun:
“In a casual chat with one of my contacts, they said: Do you know what? At some point this is going to come out, and I’m telling you now and I don’t know if the BBC would touch it, but the Queen told people at a private lunch that she thinks that we should leave the EU. Apparently at this lunch she said ‘I don’t see why we can’t just get out. What’s the problem?’ My jaw hit the floor. Very sadly, I only had one source. I spent the next few days trying to prove it. I couldn’t find the evidence. Lo and behold, a couple of months later, someone else did. Of course then ensued a huge row between that newspaper and the Palace over what had really been said or not said.”"
http://order-order.com/2016/12/26/source-told-laura-k-queen-did-back-brexit-at-private-lunch/

TCPoliticalBetting

isam said:

TwistedFireStopper said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

TOPPING said:

isam said:

It is horribly saddening the undignified way so many of the people who lost the referendum are fighting yesterdays battle.

Weasel words, false pretence, just all so fake.. why don't they just campaign for a second referendum? The idea of a referendum on the terms is so ridiculous I cant believe they are suggesting it! Why don't we have a referendum on every trade deal with a foreign country in that case? That's all the EU is now

You should be thrilled that everyone is taking such an interest in the UK's geopolitical place in the world.

Or do you believe there is anything more important facing the country right now?

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

In your opinion.

People who don't believe in the law of Supply and Demand are obvious fans of Big State deciding things rather than the masses

isam

My Manor.. interesting

http://order-order.com/2016/12/19/tory-battle-hornchurch-upminster/

williamglenn

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

3. Queen wanted Brexit

There's no evidence for this. At most the second hand reports of the dinner show that she was playing devil's advocate and question whether leaving was really so hard to do.

"Well, BBC political editor Laura Kuennsberg has revealed a source came to her with the same story before she was scooped by the Sun:
“In a casual chat with one of my contacts, they said: Do you know what? At some point this is going to come out, and I’m telling you now and I don’t know if the BBC would touch it, but the Queen told people at a private lunch that she thinks that we should leave the EU. Apparently at this lunch she said ‘I don’t see why we can’t just get out. What’s the problem?’ My jaw hit the floor. Very sadly, I only had one source. I spent the next few days trying to prove it. I couldn’t find the evidence. Lo and behold, a couple of months later, someone else did. Of course then ensued a huge row between that newspaper and the Palace over what had really been said or not said.”"
http://order-order.com/2016/12/26/source-told-laura-k-queen-did-back-brexit-at-private-lunch/

Don't you think the source from the lunch would have offered a stronger quote than that if the Queen had divulged her personal opinion in favour of leaving the EU? It's clearly been spun by the person who spoke to Kuennsberg.

Clegg was also at the lunch and denies that the Queen backed Brexit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/michael-gove-leaked-queens-private-eu-remarks-to-the-press-nick/

TCPoliticalBetting

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

3. Queen wanted Brexit

There's no evidence for this. At most the second hand reports of the dinner show that she was playing devil's advocate and question whether leaving was really so hard to do.

"Well, BBC political editor Laura Kuennsberg has revealed a source came to her with the same story before she was scooped by the Sun:
“In a casual chat with one of my contacts, they said: Do you know what? At some point this is going to come out, and I’m telling you now and I don’t know if the BBC would touch it, but the Queen told people at a private lunch that she thinks that we should leave the EU. Apparently at this lunch she said ‘I don’t see why we can’t just get out. What’s the problem?’ My jaw hit the floor. Very sadly, I only had one source. I spent the next few days trying to prove it. I couldn’t find the evidence. Lo and behold, a couple of months later, someone else did. Of course then ensued a huge row between that newspaper and the Palace over what had really been said or not said.”"
http://order-order.com/2016/12/26/source-told-laura-k-queen-did-back-brexit-at-private-lunch/

Don't you think the source from the lunch would have offered a stronger quote than that if the Queen had divulged her personal opinion in favour of leaving the EU? It's clearly been spun by the person who spoke to Kuennsberg.
Clegg was also at the lunch and denies that the Queen backed Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/michael-gove-leaked-queens-private-eu-remarks-to-the-press-nick/

and you put Clegg's view as correct... Just plain silly to deny this happened. Desperate stuff. The referendum has spoken. We are leaving the EU. Get over it and move on.

Ally_B

ThreeQuidder said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

You lost that argument six months ago.

I think you'll find the majority now realise they were lied to those putting forward the exit views. Perhaps its time you woke up and smelt the coffee rather than throwing insults at people who rightly can see the "Emperor's New Clothes" are not worth wearing?

Theuniondivvie

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

williamglenn

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

3. Queen wanted Brexit

There's no evidence for this. At most the second hand reports of the dinner show that she was playing devil's advocate and question whether leaving was really so hard to do.

"Well, BBC political editor Laura Kuennsberg has revealed a source came to her with the same story before she was scooped by the Sun:
“In a casual chat with one of my contacts, they said: Do you know what? At some point this is going to come out, and I’m telling you now and I don’t know if the BBC would touch it, but the Queen told people at a private lunch that she thinks that we should leave the EU. Apparently at this lunch she said ‘I don’t see why we can’t just get out. What’s the problem?’ My jaw hit the floor. Very sadly, I only had one source. I spent the next few days trying to prove it. I couldn’t find the evidence. Lo and behold, a couple of months later, someone else did. Of course then ensued a huge row between that newspaper and the Palace over what had really been said or not said.”"
http://order-order.com/2016/12/26/source-told-laura-k-queen-did-back-brexit-at-private-lunch/

Don't you think the source from the lunch would have offered a stronger quote than that if the Queen had divulged her personal opinion in favour of leaving the EU? It's clearly been spun by the person who spoke to Kuennsberg.
Clegg was also at the lunch and denies that the Queen backed Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/michael-gove-leaked-queens-private-eu-remarks-to-the-press-nick/

and you put Clegg's view as correct... Just plain silly to deny this happened. Desperate stuff. The referendum has spoken. We are leaving the EU. Get over it and move on.

Nobody has offered even a second hand quote from the Queen which stands up the story. The palace has denied it and Clegg who was there is on the record as saying it didn't happen.

The referendum has spoken. We are trying to leave the EU. We will not succeed.

Theuniondivvie

I know how PB loves a bit of Faisaling..

https://twitter.com/RogueCoder250/status/813371171945218049

isam

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

TCPoliticalBetting

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

3. Queen wanted Brexit

There's no evidence for this. At most the second hand reports of the dinner show that she was playing devil's advocate and question whether leaving was really so hard to do.

"Well, BBC political editor Laura Kuennsberg has revealed a source came to her with the same story before she was scooped by the Sun:
“In a casual chat with one of my contacts, they said: Do you know what? At some point this is going to come out, and I’m telling you now and I don’t know if the BBC would touch it, but the Queen told people at a private lunch that she thinks that we should leave the EU. Apparently at this lunch she said ‘I don’t see why we can’t just get out. What’s the problem?’ My jaw hit the floor. Very sadly, I only had one source. I spent the next few days trying to prove it. I couldn’t find the evidence. Lo and behold, a couple of months later, someone else did. Of course then ensued a huge row between that newspaper and the Palace over what had really been said or not said.”"
http://order-order.com/2016/12/26/source-told-laura-k-queen-did-back-brexit-at-private-lunch/

Don't you think the source from the lunch would have offered a stronger quote than that if the Queen had divulged her personal opinion in favour of leaving the EU? It's clearly been spun by the person who spoke to Kuennsberg.
Clegg was also at the lunch and denies that the Queen backed Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/michael-gove-leaked-queens-private-eu-remarks-to-the-press-nick/

and you put Clegg's view as correct... Just plain silly to deny this happened. Desperate stuff. The referendum has spoken. We are leaving the EU. Get over it and move on.

Nobody has offered even a second hand quote from the Queen which stands up the story. The palace has denied it and Clegg who was there is on the record as saying it didn't happen.

The referendum has spoken. We are trying to leave the EU. We will not succeed.

Now that is really very silly. You predict that we will not succeed in leaving the EU.

MarkHopkins

Andrew said:

Not only multi-voting, but all it takes is this to be posted to some active forum or facebook group, and suddenly one side can swamp the other. Or if someone's really keen, they can buy access to a zombie network and suddenly they have 100k votes.

Zombies?

And I thought 2016 couldn't get any worse.

isam

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

williamglenn said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

3. Queen wanted Brexit

There's no evidence for this. At most the second hand reports of the dinner show that she was playing devil's advocate and question whether leaving was really so hard to do.

"Well, BBC political editor Laura Kuennsberg has revealed a source came to her with the same story before she was scooped by the Sun:
“In a casual chat with one of my contacts, they said: Do you know what? At some point this is going to come out, and I’m telling you now and I don’t know if the BBC would touch it, but the Queen told people at a private lunch that she thinks that we should leave the EU. Apparently at this lunch she said ‘I don’t see why we can’t just get out. What’s the problem?’ My jaw hit the floor. Very sadly, I only had one source. I spent the next few days trying to prove it. I couldn’t find the evidence. Lo and behold, a couple of months later, someone else did. Of course then ensued a huge row between that newspaper and the Palace over what had really been said or not said.”"
http://order-order.com/2016/12/26/source-told-laura-k-queen-did-back-brexit-at-private-lunch/

Don't you think the source from the lunch would have offered a stronger quote than that if the Queen had divulged her personal opinion in favour of leaving the EU? It's clearly been spun by the person who spoke to Kuennsberg.
Clegg was also at the lunch and denies that the Queen backed Brexit.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/06/michael-gove-leaked-queens-private-eu-remarks-to-the-press-nick/

and you put Clegg's view as correct... Just plain silly to deny this happened. Desperate stuff. The referendum has spoken. We are leaving the EU. Get over it and move on.

Nobody has offered even a second hand quote from the Queen which stands up the story. The palace has denied it and Clegg who was there is on the record as saying it didn't happen.

The referendum has spoken. We are trying to leave the EU. We will not succeed.

" We are trying to leave the EU. We will not succeed"

That could be true, and was predicted by the Leave campaign from the start. Big Statists don't give power to the proles easily

Theuniondivvie

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

Perfectly ok.

PlatoSaid

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

I really like Brexiteers - it's like privateers in racing or buccaneers in trade. It's all about get up and go.

The Deplorables took up the same attitudes - and embraced the insult as a byword for standing up against the liberal establishment.

Those who don't like Remoaners would perhaps do better to follow the same logic.

isam

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

Perfectly ok.

So whats the difference w Brexiteer? It is obviously used in a derogatory way (a play on Mutineer I suppose), yet Traitor etc are snowflake tears words

Morris_Dancer

Miss Plato, made me think of pioneers.

As a pejorative, Brexiteers is about as rubbish as Supermac.

Anyway, I'm off for a bit.

williamglenn

PlatoSaid said:

Those who don't like Remoaners would perhaps do better to follow the same logic.

My own version would be Remainsheviks.

CD13

Mr Isam,

"That could be true, and was predicted by the Leave campaign from the start. Big Statists don't give power to the proles easily."

Worry not. If we don't leave those 'Big Statists' know that their credibility will be in tatters. Like the Liberals, whose word is no longer their bond.

And I'm talking about the referendum, their tuition fees pledge was based on being able to implement it in Government. To betray a referendum result of the British Public on the basis they didn't think they the public were bright enough to understand their vote is a different matter. They'd have thought the public were political geniuses if it had gone the other way.

The Liberals had nothing to lose though; the Establishment do.

tyson

I've posted on numerous occasions that I dislike the term Brexiter...for the reasons Plato provides; it provides some nobility or chivalry to what is ultimately a narrow minded, racist, ideological, populist right wing cult

Theuniondivvie

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

Perfectly ok.

So whats the difference w Brexiteer? It is obviously used in a derogatory way (a play on Mutineer I suppose), yet Traitor etc are snowflake tears words

Fckn hell.

Because the 'n' word (to which I assume you're referring) has centuries of violence, oppression and, yes, racism attached to it, while brexiteer is shorthand for a vague political inclination. If a motley bunch of victimhood seekers want to get a feather up their arse about it, knock yourselves out.

williamglenn

CD13 said:

And I'm talking about the referendum, their tuition fees pledge was based on being able to implement it in Government. To betray a referendum result of the British Public on the basis they didn't think they the public were bright enough to understand their vote is a different matter.

That's not the basis on which it will be betrayed. You're correct though about how the British public will view the people who campaigned for Leave and then couldn't deliver.

MikeK

More bullshit polls and they keep coming.......

Meanwhile

Of the 1.2 million migrants who arrived in Germany in 2014 and 2015, only 34,000 found work.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9645/germany-suicide

TheScreamingEagles

This is from the official/verified Sony Music twitter account.

I hope it is a hack

https://twitter.com/SonyMusicGlobal/status/813372268416036865
https://twitter.com/SonyMusicGlobal/status/813374003062669313

williamglenn

TheScreamingEagles said:

This is from the official/verified Sony Music twitter account.

I hope it is a hack

It's got to be a hack. The news was also announced by Bob Dylan's account!

https://twitter.com/bobdylan/status/813372352918683649

isam

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

Perfectly ok.

So whats the difference w Brexiteer? It is obviously used in a derogatory way (a play on Mutineer I suppose), yet Traitor etc are snowflake tears words

Fckn hell.

Because the 'n' word (to which I assume you're referring) has centuries of violence, oppression and, yes, racism attached to it, while brexiteer is shorthand for a vague political inclination. If a motley bunch of victimhood seekers want to get a feather up their arse about it, knock yourselves out.

Yes that is what I am referring to , and only a complete cretin would think I am comparing it with "Brexiteer" in terms of the levels of hurt etc it can cause. But the principle is the same. You said earlier that we shouldn't presume what people meant by "Brexiteer", but it is obvious what those who lost the referendum mean by it.

They are just hiding behind weasel words and trying to be clever... comes across as very phoney, transparent and annoying, which they generally are, and is one of the reasons they lost

rcs1000

TCPoliticalBetting said:

Oh look another anti-Brexit article. Just like February to June 23rd.

In case any one missed real good news post Brexit. "UK third quarter GDP growth revised up to 0.6%"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38413787
"Ruth Gregory, UK economist at Capital Economics, said the figures suggested that June's Brexit vote had had little impact on the economy and that growth in the final quarter of the year would be positive."

The underlying data was pretty awful in the GDP report: income was down while spending was up.

My big concern has always been that when the inevitable shit hits the fan, and we are forced to bring spending in line with incomes, that this is blamed on Brexit.

SouthamObserver

I have genuinely never thought of Brexiteer as anything other than shorthand for someone who supports Brexit. To save writing out someone who supports Brexit each time is there a politically correct term we can use?

ThreeQuidder

Ally_B said:

ThreeQuidder said:

williamglenn said:

isam said:

I am talking about the unedifying way people in the UK who lost the referendum are trying to twist and turn until they find some way of undermining the result.. what are you talking about?

It's unedifying in a democratic society to believe that any vote closes down the argument and compels everyone to subscribe to a 'correct' view. Brexit is a mistake and the people who are cheering for it should be held to account.

You lost that argument six months ago.

I think you'll find the majority now realise they were lied to those putting forward the exit views. Perhaps its time you woke up and smelt the coffee rather than throwing insults at people who rightly can see the "Emperor's New Clothes" are not worth wearing?

I think you'll find that the majority knew that all along, and also knew that they were lied to at least as badly by those promoting Remain.

TheScreamingEagles

Phew

https://twitter.com/AnneClaireCNN/status/813381017897758720

MarkHopkins

SouthamObserver said:

I have genuinely never thought of Brexiteer as anything other than shorthand for someone who supports Brexit. To save writing out someone who supports Brexit each time is there a politically correct term we can use?

Leaver/Remainer

Although personally I'm happy with Brexiteer / Remoaner.

isam

SouthamObserver said:

I have genuinely never thought of Brexiteer as anything other than shorthand for someone who supports Brexit. To save writing out someone who supports Brexit each time is there a politically correct term we can use?

Nice try! Use what you like, I like the connotations of "Brexiteer", but it is obvious that some who use it mean "Mutineer". I don't use "Remoaner" but it is quite funny, and am surprised it is on the naughty step

isam

MarkHopkins said:

SouthamObserver said:

I have genuinely never thought of Brexiteer as anything other than shorthand for someone who supports Brexit. To save writing out someone who supports Brexit each time is there a politically correct term we can use?

Leaver/Remainer

Although personally I'm happy with Brexiteer / Remoaner.

Winners / Losers is most accurate in the context of the referendum.

ThreeQuidder

tyson said:

I've posted on numerous occasions that I dislike the term Brexiter...for the reasons Plato provides; it provides some nobility or chivalry to what is ultimately a narrow minded, racist, ideological, populist right wing cult

52%.

Charles

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

Perfectly ok.

So whats the difference w Brexiteer? It is obviously used in a derogatory way (a play on Mutineer I suppose), yet Traitor etc are snowflake tears words

Interesting.

You think "Mutineers" (rebels against legitimate authority) Plato for "privateers"(licensed pirates)

Both pretty negative!

I assumed it was a play on "Musketeers": plucky heroes standing up against the corrupt state in the interests of the people...

ThreeQuidder

SouthamObserver said:

I have genuinely never thought of Brexiteer as anything other than shorthand for someone who supports Brexit. To save writing out someone who supports Brexit each time is there a politically correct term we can use?

Democrat.

SouthamObserver

@MarkHopkins - Remoaner is harmless, but clearly pejorative. I just can't see even the tamest of insults in Brexiteer. I am clearly missing something, but can't for the life of me see what it is.

ThreeQuidder

isam said:

SouthamObserver said:

I have genuinely never thought of Brexiteer as anything other than shorthand for someone who supports Brexit. To save writing out someone who supports Brexit each time is there a politically correct term we can use?

Nice try! Use what you like, I like the connotations of "Brexiteer", but it is obvious that some who use it mean "Mutineer". I don't use "Remoaner" but it is quite funny, and am surprised it is on the naughty step

It's on the naughty step because it rings too true with Smithson.

isam

Charles said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

Perfectly ok.

So whats the difference w Brexiteer? It is obviously used in a derogatory way (a play on Mutineer I suppose), yet Traitor etc are snowflake tears words

Interesting.

You think "Mutineers" (rebels against legitimate authority) Plato for "privateers"(licensed pirates)

Both pretty negative!

I assumed it was a play on "Musketeers": plucky heroes standing up against the corrupt state in the interests of the people...

I think of it as "Buccaneers", but I think the referendum losers use it while thinking "Mutineers"

edmundintokyo

Can we all agree the appropriate term for a supporter of Brexit is "Brexit Womble"?

PlatoSaid

Charles said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Theuniondivvie said:

isam said:

Mike asked for "remoaners" not to be used, along with other derogatory names re Leave and Remain.

"Brexiteers" is used disparagingly by those who lost the referendum, and appears in thread headers all the time.. isn't that the same?

No, unless (oddly) you think any reference to Brexit is automatically negative?

I don't care what people call each other, and quite like "Brexiteer" ,but it is definitely used in a negative way by referendum losers

Ah, so instead of actually going with the meaning of words, we're going to presume what folk using them 'really' mean?

Quick, call the semiotics police.

Yes I suppose so. A bit like black people being able to use some words to describe themselves while others shouldn't. Are you ok with that?

Perfectly ok.

So whats the difference w Brexiteer? It is obviously used in a derogatory way (a play on Mutineer I suppose), yet Traitor etc are snowflake tears words

Interesting.

You think "Mutineers" (rebels against legitimate authority) Plato for "privateers"(licensed pirates)

Both pretty negative!

I assumed it was a play on "Musketeers": plucky heroes standing up against the corrupt state in the interests of the people...

The Remainers really ought to be Brussels Sprouts.

williamglenn

edmundintokyo said:

Can we all agree the appropriate term for a supporter of Brexit is "Brexit Womble"?

The burghers of Wimbledon are surely for Remain?

SouthamObserver

@isam - not trying anything. Genuinely never saw the insult. Mutineer is not a word you see or hear very often. And mutinies do not have to be negative, of course.

malcolmg

DecrepitJohnL said:

TCPoliticalBetting said:

No mention of John Lewis cutting benefits to help fund this.

John Lewis boss: "higher minimum wage should boost productivity
Sir Charlie Mayfield says national living wage may encourage more automation, spurring economic growth"
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/dec/25/john-lewis-minimum-wage-productivity-sir-charlie-mayfield

More automation, fewer jobs. That is the danger. There was a piece from a Nobel Prize-winning economist in the FT about it the other day (automation not globalisation is the big threat). It is paywalled but linked from here.
http://uk.businessinsider.com/nobel-economist-angus-deaton-on-how-robotics-threatens-jobs-2016-12

There seems to be a growing academic consensus around this analysis. The City boys may know more.

They will be the easiest to automate for sure

AnneJGP

Morris_Dancer said:

Miss Plato, made me think of pioneers.

As a pejorative, Brexiteers is about as rubbish as Supermac.

Anyway, I'm off for a bit.

There is an objective difference of style in the two terms: *Brexiteers* is a newly-coined word which is open to interpretation. *Remoaners* is not a simple play on words but incorporates an existing negative word.

And, IMHO, the negative feeling of *moaner* would be hard for a group to embrace in the way *deplorable* was. (E.g. How many patients like it when they read a report stating "This person arrived complaining of ..."?)

IMHO, it's reasonable to bar the one word from general use and not the other.

And good afternoon, everyone.

MarkHopkins

SouthamObserver said:

@isam - not trying anything. Genuinely never saw the insult. Mutineer is not a word you see or hear very often. And mutinies do not have to be negative, of course.

Actually a mutiny (as a rebellion against authority) is a good analogy of what happened.