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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big one: Cyclefree announces her awards for 2016

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited December 2016 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big one: Cyclefree announces her awards for 2016

A difficult one, this, with so many contenders, not least Ms Morgan herself. But in the end this was jointly shared by the EU and Britain. Both displayed monumental self-regard and a total inability to understand that, perhaps, just perhaps, their own behaviour had a teensy bit to do with why they could not get on.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • I don't normally like to criticize people who take the time to do thread headers but let's not have any more like these. Leave the bitter people slagging off politicians they dislike for below the line.
  • I disagree with the previous poster. A thread such as this promises to generate a whole lot of fun and laughs .....but then I understand that laughs don't feature very highly on the agenda in Tokyo.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    Let's have more threads like these. The bitterer the better.
  • Agree with all of these......(particularly Shabby for greatest self-immolation of the year) if only there was a 'Creative Accounting Award'........close run thing between Sir Phillip Green and the SNP government......

    On the 'Off to a Good Start' front I'd nominate Keir Starmer who seems to be navigating the tricky shoals of politics more adroitly than many who start later in life......
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Great thread Cyeclefree tbank you.

    OT
    Littlejohn Daily mail

    14 A one-legged Albanian gangster, convicted of two murders, fled to Britain posing as a Kosovan refugee. Once he arrived here, he started selling drugs and his wife says he always carried a gun or knife. How did British authorities react?

    a) He was arrested immediately by armed officers.
    b) He was deported back to Albania to stand trial.
    c) He was granted British citizenship, given a four-bedroom council house, £2,000 a month in welfare benefits, a new prosthetic leg on the NHS and legal aid to appeal against deportation

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-4067392/Donkey-ride-bans-chicken-dancing-councillors-Army-barracks-orgies-DNA-tests-doggie-s-RICHARD-LITTLEJOHN-S-Makes-Proud-British-quiz-2016.html#ixzz4U0Q9WTVt


    ** note that as voodoo polls are now apparently accepted on PB and even make thread headers this is also worthy of inclusion........or not??
  • Moses: "** note that as voodoo polls are now apparently accepted on PB and even make thread headers this is also worthy of inclusion........or not??"

    Yes indeed, 'tis a sad day - but then again at least OGH describes these polls for what they are .... voodoo. Going back to PB.com's purer than the driven snow days, I recall the time when it was a hanging offence to so much as contemplate the very idea of averaging polls.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Ms Cyclefree. I wonder if you are selling Corbyn short with the Nuclear Cockroach Award. Surely he is eligible for the Deep Space Tardigrade Award:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Moses: "** note that as voodoo polls are now apparently accepted on PB and even make thread headers this is also worthy of inclusion........or not??"

    Yes indeed, 'tis a sad day - but then again at least OGH describes these polls for what they are .... voodoo. Going back to PB.com's purer than the driven snow days, I recall the time when it was a hanging offence to so much as contemplate the very idea of averaging polls.

    Indeed.

    *looks around sadly thinking *

    I remember when this was just green fields..............
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited December 2016
    Morning all, and thanks to Ms @Cyclefree for her review of the year.

    In contrast to the Times front page yesterday, the Telegraph leader today could have been written by Dan Hannan:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/12/26/voting-leave-eu-act-national-self-confidence-politicians-should/
    Voters are largely positive about the future, believing in this country’s ability to thrive. Sadly, that belief is often lacking in some ministers and especially in the Civil Service. Too many still regard the Brexit vote as an error and the exit that must follow as a problem to be managed and mitigated, not an opportunity to be seized.

    Outside the EU, Britain will be able once again to decide its own laws on everything from immigration to industrial strategy. We must surely also get more scope to build closer trading relationships with dynamic economies around the world. These are the freedoms that the British people chose for themselves and their country in the biggest vote in our history: the referendum vote to leave the EU was a huge collective act of optimism and belief that this country’s best days are yet to come. Brexit is a good news story, and our leaders should do more to tell it that way.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    I am happy this is the end of the year. It would have been a tragedy if the new year started with a thread like this one. Pointless ! That's the best I can say.
  • Sandpit said:


    In contrast to the Times front page yesterday

    The Guardian has this on its front page today.....I expect a thread along shortly......

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/26/queen-did-back-brexit-run-up-to-referendum-laura-kuenssberg
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:


    In contrast to the Times front page yesterday

    The Guardian has this on its front page today.....I expect a thread along shortly......

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/26/queen-did-back-brexit-run-up-to-referendum-laura-kuenssberg
    I wonder what would have happened if Laura Kuenssberg had managed to double-source the story - surely the BBC wouldn't have run something so politically sensitive before the referendum?
  • surbiton said:

    I am happy this is the end of the year. It would have been a tragedy if the new year started with a thread like this one. Pointless ! That's the best I can say.

    Loosen up surbiton (and EiT), this is simply supposed to be a bit of fun at a time when there is generally a void in terms of any meaningful political news.
    I think most would consider for instance that Shabby is full deserving of her award.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    In contrast to the Times front page yesterday

    The Guardian has this on its front page today.....I expect a thread along shortly......

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/26/queen-did-back-brexit-run-up-to-referendum-laura-kuenssberg
    I wonder what would have happened if Laura Kuenssberg had managed to double-source the story - surely the BBC wouldn't have run something so politically sensitive before the referendum?
    I think they would have to had to run it - they would face a colossal row either way - but it should hardly be surprising what the views of a 90 year old are....
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The award for talking the biggest load of bollocks about the EU in the referendum campaign: David Cameron
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    In contrast to the Times front page yesterday

    The Guardian has this on its front page today.....I expect a thread along shortly......

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/26/queen-did-back-brexit-run-up-to-referendum-laura-kuenssberg
    I wonder what would have happened if Laura Kuenssberg had managed to double-source the story - surely the BBC wouldn't have run something so politically sensitive before the referendum?
    I think they would have to had to run it - they would face a colossal row either way - but it should hardly be surprising what the views of a 90 year old are....
    Yes, they'd have been damned if they ran with it, and damned if they didn't.

    On reflection, they'd have probably run the story on an early morning R4 bulletin, then spent several days talking to each other about their coverage of it across all their channels.
  • Morning all.

    Many thanks for the early morning laughs Ms Cyclefree, would love to see this round-up of alternate political awards become an annual PB event – with you as sole arbiter, natch.
  • Thanks for the thread CF.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    The Vanguard TV3 award for career exploding before launch goes to Andrea Leadsom. Like the TV3, she rose four feet in a shower of flames before (thankfully) self-combusting during a soft-soap interview.

    Considered Boris for the TV3 award, but decided he better deserves the Banquo award: his aspirations killed by Macbeth (Gove) and his wife (Vine). Though Boris's position as a minister indicates he must now be Banquo's ghost.

    Oh, and thanks for the chuckles CF.
  • I agree about the PM's taste in jewellery...
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Nice article, Miss Cyclefree.

    Contemplating making a new space cannon list for next year.

    F1: hopefully Bottas' will be announced as Mercedes' new driver in a week or so. Then, in February (I think) testing kicks off, with the first race around 26 March.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited December 2016
    Very good cyclefree though I have to say I liked the first half more than the second. Having said that the ingenuity of finding an award for the dismally bland Theresa May was a masterstroke. Who would have thouht to look to her decolletage for inspration?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Moses_ said:

    Moses: "** note that as voodoo polls are now apparently accepted on PB and even make thread headers this is also worthy of inclusion........or not??"

    Yes indeed, 'tis a sad day - but then again at least OGH describes these polls for what they are .... voodoo. Going back to PB.com's purer than the driven snow days, I recall the time when it was a hanging offence to so much as contemplate the very idea of averaging polls.

    Indeed.

    *looks around sadly thinking *

    I remember when this was just green fields..............
    My favourite Private Eye cartoom has a man standing on a hilltop looking out over fields "I remember son, when all this used to be factories..."
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    In contrast to the Times front page yesterday

    The Guardian has this on its front page today.....I expect a thread along shortly......

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/26/queen-did-back-brexit-run-up-to-referendum-laura-kuenssberg
    I wonder what would have happened if Laura Kuenssberg had managed to double-source the story - surely the BBC wouldn't have run something so politically sensitive before the referendum?
    I think they would have to had to run it - they would face a colossal row either way - but it should hardly be surprising what the views of a 90 year old are....
    Yep I think they would have run it...
    And certainly they would have been right to do so if they'd had the evidence.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    There's a reference upthread to a David Cameron. Who he?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    A pleasant early morning entertainment. I can't entirely agree with the Clinton donor award - after all, a few of the donors might have been genuinely motivated by charitable urges, and a surprising amount of the money gets spent on genuine good causes.
    And someone's going to have quite a lot of time on her hands to run it...
  • Nigelb said:

    A pleasant early morning entertainment. I can't entirely agree with the Clinton donor award - after all, a few of the donors might have been genuinely motivated by charitable urges, and a surprising amount of the money gets spent on genuine good causes.
    And someone's going to have quite a lot of time on her hands to run it...

    He is scathing about the Clintons, and Hillary Clinton in particular, for their links to a broken establishment. “One of the great benefits of the election to me is that I don’t have to pretend that I like her,” he tells me at one point, even as he confesses he reluctantly voted for her.

    But his bigger frustration is with what he sees as the detached and technocratic backgrounds of so many people in centrist politics nowadays.

    “If you think about the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party, they were singing hymns on the train platform as they went off to work. And they were of ‘those people’,” he says. “If you think of someone like Gordon Brown, who I have immense admiration for, and Obama — and the high point of my year this year was my meeting with Obama — he’s not one of ‘those people’ any more. He’s an intellectual with progressive views who is making policy in a way that he judges is good for those people.”


    Nobel Economist Angus Deaton

    https://www.ft.com/content/bbf54b3e-c5f3-11e6-9043-7e34c07b46ef
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited December 2016

    his bigger frustration is with what he sees as the detached and technocratic backgrounds of so many people in centrist politics nowadays.

    “If you think about the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party, they were singing hymns on the train platform as they went off to work. And they were of ‘those people’,” he says. “If you think of someone like Gordon Brown, who I have immense admiration for, and Obama — and the high point of my year this year was my meeting with Obama — he’s not one of ‘those people’ any more. He’s an intellectual with progressive views who is making policy in a way that he judges is good for those people

    So different from dear FDR & dear Clem.
  • Nigelb said:

    A pleasant early morning entertainment. I can't entirely agree with the Clinton donor award - after all, a few of the donors might have been genuinely motivated by charitable urges, and a surprising amount of the money gets spent on genuine good causes.
    And someone's going to have quite a lot of time on her hands to run it...

    He is scathing about the Clintons, and Hillary Clinton in particular, for their links to a broken establishment. “One of the great benefits of the election to me is that I don’t have to pretend that I like her,” he tells me at one point, even as he confesses he reluctantly voted for her.

    But his bigger frustration is with what he sees as the detached and technocratic backgrounds of so many people in centrist politics nowadays.

    “If you think about the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party, they were singing hymns on the train platform as they went off to work. And they were of ‘those people’,” he says. “If you think of someone like Gordon Brown, who I have immense admiration for, and Obama — and the high point of my year this year was my meeting with Obama — he’s not one of ‘those people’ any more. He’s an intellectual with progressive views who is making policy in a way that he judges is good for those people.”


    Nobel Economist Angus Deaton

    https://www.ft.com/content/bbf54b3e-c5f3-11e6-9043-7e34c07b46ef
    Yes but in a sense that was always true of the Labour Party which even in its early years was mainly run by intellectuals. Arguably a larger change in this direction has come on the Conservative benches where the SpAd generation has supplanted the Bufton Tuftons who were farmers or family solicitors or small businessmen (and MPs were generally male in those days).
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Excellent thread header, Ms Cyclefree, but I have to disagree with one of your awards. Surely the best cleavage is within the Labour Party?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Have to agree with EiT's first comment, sorry - more catty than funny, and unworthy of Cyclefree, who remins one of our most interesting posters.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Thanks for the entertainment Cyclefree - my PC is now peppered with coffee and cornflakes!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    I am getting some wry amusement from the media coverage of George Michael's death. No connection is too loose to be exploited: Yesterday Radio 4 gave a long interview to a woman who had been an extra in a couple of Wham videos (and who is now a media darling).

    Then there's this story about how the residents of Goring-on-Thames are reacting to the death of 'their most famous resident'. By a journalist who, by the lack of anecdotes, had never met him despite living in the same village.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38436875
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Slightly surprised this news hasn't got more coverage: "Electoral fraud: Voters will have to show ID in pilot scheme"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38440934

    Generally seems like a good idea.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    "She ought to have at least held out for Wales."

    Brilliant.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2016
    I sort of agree with EIT & Nick P on this.
    I see where Cyclefree is coming from and I guess many people simply like public attention. Fortunately some do appear to be willing to brave notoriety and digitally delivered anonymous insults and threats over real or imaginary mistakes. And maybe some actually revel in that, but others of us rejoice in the obscurity of our projects.
  • Slightly surprised this news hasn't got more coverage: "Electoral fraud: Voters will have to show ID in pilot scheme"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38440934

    Generally seems like a good idea.

    Sounds more like the slippery slope to compulsory ID cards, neatly combined with measures more likely to hurt Labour, as Ken Livingstone points out in the link. Is there any evidence of personation at polling stations? Surely most of the abuses by all parties have involved postal votes.
  • Mr. JohnL, must agree.

    Postal voting is what needs sorting out.
  • Yes and no. The party leaders are surely fair game and the header is in the grand tradition of light-hearted "end of year" awards. What it perhaps lacks is any balance by any positive awards.
  • Hilarious! Cracking article, Cyclefree ;-)
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Dr P,

    "Have to agree with EiT's first comment, sorry - more catty than funny, and unworthy of Cyclefree, who remins one of our most interesting posters."

    What use are politicians if you can't insult them?

    We're about the same age. Haven't you yet developed an appropriate level of cynicism?

    As Mrs Dale nearly used to say ... "I'm getting worried about Nick."

    Ms Cyclefree - a good header but I think you were too kind.
  • I don't normally like to criticize people who take the time to do thread headers but let's not have any more like these. Leave the bitter people slagging off politicians they dislike for below the line.

    Pompous leftwinger in sense of humour failure - shock.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    The utilities bill suggestion seems targeted at restricting the voting rights of people who live with their parents/live in shared accommodation.

    Similarly... If we end up with a system whereby different pieces of ID are needed for different councils or areas... Thats very unhelpful.

    The postal votes harvesting ban seems sensible though. Surprised labour aren't making more of a fuss tbh.
  • It seems that the "remain" and the "sanctimonious" genes lie very closely together in our dna.
  • Mr. rkrkrk, must agree with that.

    The postal voting is the problem. That's what needs addressing.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    I don't normally like to criticize people who take the time to do thread headers but let's not have any more like these. Leave the bitter people slagging off politicians they dislike for below the line.

    Pompous leftwinger in sense of humour failure - shock.
    Is EiT a leftwinger ? He's one of these posters that I've found slightly difficult to categorise on the classic left-right spectrum.
  • Passports don't have addresses; utility bills don't have photos and are not addressed to every member of a household. The only ID that works is a driving licence - so that's my wife, my mother-in-law, my Mum, my daughter and middle son all denied a vote. Only the mother-in-law's a Tory, so it's a net win for the Blues - which I guess is the point.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Nigelb said:

    A pleasant early morning entertainment. I can't entirely agree with the Clinton donor award - after all, a few of the donors might have been genuinely motivated by charitable urges, and a surprising amount of the money gets spent on genuine good causes.
    And someone's going to have quite a lot of time on her hands to run it...

    He is scathing about the Clintons, and Hillary Clinton in particular, for their links to a broken establishment. “One of the great benefits of the election to me is that I don’t have to pretend that I like her,” he tells me at one point, even as he confesses he reluctantly voted for her.

    But his bigger frustration is with what he sees as the detached and technocratic backgrounds of so many people in centrist politics nowadays.

    “If you think about the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party, they were singing hymns on the train platform as they went off to work. And they were of ‘those people’,” he says. “If you think of someone like Gordon Brown, who I have immense admiration for, and Obama — and the high point of my year this year was my meeting with Obama — he’s not one of ‘those people’ any more. He’s an intellectual with progressive views who is making policy in a way that he judges is good for those people.”


    Nobel Economist Angus Deaton

    https://www.ft.com/content/bbf54b3e-c5f3-11e6-9043-7e34c07b46ef
    Can't disagree with much of that, but rather a non sequitur.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    rkrkrk said:

    The utilities bill suggestion seems targeted at restricting the voting rights of people who live with their parents/live in shared accommodation.

    Similarly... If we end up with a system whereby different pieces of ID are needed for different councils or areas... Thats very unhelpful.

    The postal votes harvesting ban seems sensible though. Surprised labour aren't making more of a fuss tbh.

    I've been calling for something like this for a while. It will be interesting to see what the pilot projects - and pilots are all that is being proposed at the moment - throw up.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Hilarious, and all the more so for the po faced reaction of those below the line who cannot see the funny.

    Thanks cycelefree - for making us smile and reminding us that we're human, not moralisers.
  • It seems that the "remain" and the "sanctimonious" genes lie very closely together in our dna.

    ..he says sanctimoniously.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Am I alone in enjoying the fact that Southam's mother-in-law is a Tory? :-)
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited December 2016
    Mortimer said:

    Hilarious, and all the more so for the po faced reaction of those below the line who cannot see the funny.

    Thanks cycelefree - for making us smile and reminding us that we're human, not moralisers.

    No. Some of us are just introverts. And anyway I find criticism kinda passive.
  • Mr. Observer, indeed.

    It's the postal voting system that needs improvement (personally I'd just restrict it massively).
  • @Gadfly - aren't all mothers-in-law Tories? ;-)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Passports don't have addresses; utility bills don't have photos and are not addressed to every member of a household. The only ID that works is a driving licence - so that's my wife, my mother-in-law, my Mum, my daughter and middle son all denied a vote. Only the mother-in-law's a Tory, so it's a net win for the Blues - which I guess is the point.

    That's exactly the sort of thing a well-designed pilot should detect: how the new systems have altered results from the existing ones. In this case 'results' is not who wins the election: but who has been encouraged to vote, and who has not; how well the polling stations have coped with the new process, what other problems there have been, etc, etc.

    There are problems with pilots however: they are often trialled in areas where a certain result can be expected (i.e. favourable or unfavourable to the new scheme), and the results are often overplayed or just ignored as the scheme gets rolled out in full. I'd expect these pilots to be backed up with some fairly rigorous academic study.

    Too many of us see the electoral system as an esoteric game: instead, it is a vital part of democracy. If people lose faith in the electoral system because of real or perceived biases, then democracy is the loser.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    @SouthamObserver Good point - mine certainly was! :-)
  • Really funny thread header. More please at the end of next year.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    And with a cartoon by the lovely Marf. I am blessed!

    Just an attempt to lighten the mood, after quite a year and - lately - some rather tetchy threads.

    Had I extended it I would have given an award to the retired judge Lord Judge for elegantly skewering Ms Truss and reminding all of us about the importance of judicial independence and the rule of law, one of the glories of British life and something we should be trumpeting before the world as we embark on our post-EU future not attacking because the law comes up with an answer we don't like.

    There would also have been a special Hypocrisy Award for those politicians apparently very keen on freedom of the press when it comes to saying rude things about judges but far less so when it comes to defending sportsmen from poking fun at religion.

    There would have been a boo card for Ms Truss herself for the inept way she is approaching the question of prison reform. Much as people who commit serious crimes deserve to be in prison, we should not forget - at a time when some of us celebrate the birth of Jesus - that prisoners were one of the categories of people in his mind. Very few people are incapable of redemption.

    A big black mark too to the National Grid for proposing to put up electricity pylons through the Duddon Valley in the Lake District on the edge of the Lake District National Park rather than extending their proposed underground tunnel. How can people see such beauty and wilfully destroy it?

    On a similar note, if you are interested in architecture, especially in the world outside our borders, do try and catch Dan Cruickshank's series - Adventures in Architecture. He is knowledgeable and enthusuastic and an infectious communicator. And the films of remote, bizarre and beautiful places is stunning.

    And I am giving my personal award to Diocese of Breda in Germany which is providing practical help to Iraqi and Syrian Christian refugees who, sadly, are being forced out of refugee shelters because of hostility from others. Christianity was born in the Middle East and is being squeezed out of the land of its birth. It is shameful. We can at least help the human victims.

    Anyway, I saw Sully: Miracle on the Hudson yesterday. Well worth it. Genuinely exciting and quite moving.

    And nowI have to find some straw to protect my tree ferns from frost.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Toms said:

    Mortimer said:

    Hilarious, and all the more so for the po faced reaction of those below the line who cannot see the funny.

    Thanks cycelefree - for making us smile and reminding us that we're human, not moralisers.

    No. Some of us are just introverts. And anyway I find criticism kinda passive.
    Introverts are still human.

  • Surely donors to the Trump charity were the biggest chumps as they merely helped a billionaire avoid paying tax. At least some of the Clinton Foundation money found its way to good causes.

    Chakrabati richly deserves her award.

    Philip Hammond also merits one - only member of the cabinet to rise above mediocre.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Surely donors to the Trump charity were the biggest chumps as they merely helped a billionaire avoid paying tax. At least some of the Clinton Foundation money found its way to good causes.

    Chakrabati richly deserves her award.

    Philip Hammond also merits one - only member of the cabinet to rise above mediocre.

    Apparently not total chumps, unless they were all disinterested charity enthusiasts...
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/12/09/the-six-donors-trump-appointed-to-his-administration-gave-almost-12-million-with-their-families-to-his-campaign-and-the-party/
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:


    In contrast to the Times front page yesterday

    The Guardian has this on its front page today.....I expect a thread along shortly......

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/26/queen-did-back-brexit-run-up-to-referendum-laura-kuenssberg
    I wonder what would have happened if Laura Kuenssberg had managed to double-source the story - surely the BBC wouldn't have run something so politically sensitive before the referendum?
    I think they would have to had to run it - they would face a colossal row either way - but it should hardly be surprising what the views of a 90 year old are....
    Yes, they'd have been damned if they ran with it, and damned if they didn't.

    On reflection, they'd have probably run the story on an early morning R4 bulletin, then spent several days talking to each other about their coverage of it across all their channels.
    You mean a 90 year old guaranteed to get a job for life on the public purse ?
  • Nigelb said:

    A pleasant early morning entertainment. I can't entirely agree with the Clinton donor award - after all, a few of the donors might have been genuinely motivated by charitable urges, and a surprising amount of the money gets spent on genuine good causes.
    And someone's going to have quite a lot of time on her hands to run it...

    He is scathing about the Clintons, and Hillary Clinton in particular, for their links to a broken establishment. “One of the great benefits of the election to me is that I don’t have to pretend that I like her,” he tells me at one point, even as he confesses he reluctantly voted for her.

    But his bigger frustration is with what he sees as the detached and technocratic backgrounds of so many people in centrist politics nowadays.

    “If you think about the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party, they were singing hymns on the train platform as they went off to work. And they were of ‘those people’,” he says. “If you think of someone like Gordon Brown, who I have immense admiration for, and Obama — and the high point of my year this year was my meeting with Obama — he’s not one of ‘those people’ any more. He’s an intellectual with progressive views who is making policy in a way that he judges is good for those people.”


    Nobel Economist Angus Deaton

    https://www.ft.com/content/bbf54b3e-c5f3-11e6-9043-7e34c07b46ef
    Yes but in a sense that was always true of the Labour Party which even in its early years was mainly run by intellectuals.
    Leaders of the Labour Party & their first jobs

    Keir Hardie: - age 7, messenger boy
    Arthur Henderson: age 12, locomotive factory
    George Barnes: age 7, jute mill
    Ramsay McDonald: age 15, farm labourer
    William Adamson: miner
    J R Clynes age 10, cotton mill
    George Lansbury: Coal wagons
    Clement Attlee - Oxford, Barrister
    Hugh Gaitskill -Oxford, Fabian Research Bureau
    George Brown - Junior Clerk
    Harold Wilson: - Oxford, Oxford Don
    James Callaghan: - Inland Revenue Clerk
    Michael Foot: - Oxford, Shipping Clerk
    Neil Kinnock: - Tutor
    John Smith: - Glasgow, Solicitor
    Tony Blair: - Oxford, Barrister
    Gordon Bown: - Edinburgh, Lecturer
    Ed Miliband - Oxford, Media Researcher
    Jeremy Corbyn - Union Official

    So, I think the Nobel Laureate's contention that "the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party....... were of ‘those people’ stands, and Corbyn, arguably is much nearer Labour Party roots than the Oxford Mafia that's run the Party since Clem Attlee's days...


  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Passports don't have addresses; utility bills don't have photos and are not addressed to every member of a household. The only ID that works is a driving licence - so that's my wife, my mother-in-law, my Mum, my daughter and middle son all denied a vote. Only the mother-in-law's a Tory, so it's a net win for the Blues - which I guess is the point.

    It is "gerrymandering" the voters. A bit like going back to the days when only the rich voted.

  • That's exactly the sort of thing a well-designed pilot should detect: how the new systems have altered results from the existing ones. In this case 'results' is not who wins the election: but who has been encouraged to vote, and who has not; how well the polling stations have coped with the new process, what other problems there have been, etc, etc.

    There are problems with pilots however: they are often trialled in areas where a certain result can be expected (i.e. favourable or unfavourable to the new scheme), and the results are often overplayed or just ignored as the scheme gets rolled out in full. I'd expect these pilots to be backed up with some fairly rigorous academic study.

    Too many of us see the electoral system as an esoteric game: instead, it is a vital part of democracy. If people lose faith in the electoral system because of real or perceived biases, then democracy is the loser.

    Feels like to make this kind of thing properly useful you'd need a Red Team out there trying to beat it...
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    @Gadfly - aren't all mothers-in-law Tories? ;-)

    Some are more right-wing !
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Mortimer said:

    Toms said:

    Mortimer said:

    Hilarious, and all the more so for the po faced reaction of those below the line who cannot see the funny.

    Thanks cycelefree - for making us smile and reminding us that we're human, not moralisers.

    No. Some of us are just introverts. And anyway I find criticism kinda passive.
    Introverts are still human.

    It's nice to know that!
    I have admiration for people doing stuff for the public under constant watch. We introverts tend to release things when they are, hopefully, sorted. I'd be hopeless in a baking/cooking competition.
  • I don't normally like to criticize people who take the time to do thread headers but let's not have any more like these. Leave the bitter people slagging off politicians they dislike for below the line.

    Pompous leftwinger in sense of humour failure - shock.
    Is EiT a leftwinger ? He's one of these posters that I've found slightly difficult to categorise on the classic left-right spectrum.
    Very much so.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    @Gadfly - aren't all mothers-in-law Tories? ;-)

    Mine certainly isn't. Card carrying member of the Labour party since she left school. Pretty disenchanted though, no time for Corbyn or Islington socialites. For her it is all about the poor, the less able and the needy. I would say that she doesn't know where her church ends and her politics start but she wouldn't get what I was talking about. For her they are indivisible. She is a genuinely good person and after 31 years of marriage she seems to have come around to the view her daughter could have made a worse choice after all.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Essexit said:

    Excellent thread header, Ms Cyclefree, but I have to disagree with one of your awards. Surely the best cleavage is within the Labour Party?

    Definitely and they are socialist too ! TM's are pathetic. CF needs an eye test.
  • Mr. Toms, it's sometimes amusing and sometimes irksome the way extroversion is portrayed in media as being either normal or better than introversion. Introverts are half the population...
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    "And the winner is English politics where the three party leaders consist of a woman being petulant over leather trousers, a malign tramp and a man with all the charisma of a cloakroom attendant."

    It seems a little unfair to characterise Nicola Sturgeon as a "malign tramp".
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,959
    Cyclefree said:

    And with a cartoon by the lovely Marf. I am blessed!

    Just an attempt to lighten the mood, after quite a year and - lately - some rather tetchy threads.

    Anyway, I saw Sully: Miracle on the Hudson yesterday. Well worth it. Genuinely exciting and quite moving.

    And now I have to find some straw to protect my tree ferns from frost.

    An enjoyable thread, especially as it has shown just how po-faced the miserable gits of the Left are. Frankly guys, humour is all you have left.

    Thought there might be an award for Fridge Salesman of the Year?

    You are slightly more generous about Sully than I was. Enjoyed Gold, with Hair and Make-up deserving of an award for making Matt McConaughey look like a balding slob. Jackie is also well worth a watch. I defy you to watch A Monster Calls without blubbing. Award for the Film That Most Stays With You. Birth of a Nation was provocatively titled - but did little to justify that provocation. It told us little we didn't already know about brutality of slave owners, especially with regard to dentistry.

    But the film I have enjoyed the most this BAFTA season, and that by a country mile, was Hidden Figures, about the coloured women working - segregated - in the NASA programme to beat the Russians into space and then the moon. Flawless. Delightful. Uplifting. Says everything wonderful about their contribution without being perpetually right-on or cloying. Beautifully written, acted and put on the screen. *****
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    oh dear the thread is reduced to tory or labour tits.. its not been the best Xmas on Pb with the recent morbid chat.

  • That's exactly the sort of thing a well-designed pilot should detect: how the new systems have altered results from the existing ones. In this case 'results' is not who wins the election: but who has been encouraged to vote, and who has not; how well the polling stations have coped with the new process, what other problems there have been, etc, etc.

    There are problems with pilots however: they are often trialled in areas where a certain result can be expected (i.e. favourable or unfavourable to the new scheme), and the results are often overplayed or just ignored as the scheme gets rolled out in full. I'd expect these pilots to be backed up with some fairly rigorous academic study.

    Too many of us see the electoral system as an esoteric game: instead, it is a vital part of democracy. If people lose faith in the electoral system because of real or perceived biases, then democracy is the loser.

    Feels like to make this kind of thing properly useful you'd need a Red Team out there trying to beat it...
    A red team with a laser printer to knock up fake utility bills? No, what is needed first is any evidence that personation is a real problem, otherwise we just have vote-suppression and another argument for compulsory ID cards.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited December 2016

    Nigelb said:

    A pleasant early morning entertainment. I can't entirely agree with the Clinton donor award - after all, a few of the donors might have been genuinely motivated by charitable urges, and a surprising amount of the money gets spent on genuine good causes.
    And someone's going to have quite a lot of time on her hands to run it...

    He is scathing about the Clintons, and Hillary Clinton in particular, for their links to a broken establishment. “One of the great benefits of the election to me is that I don’t have to pretend that I like her,” he tells me at one point, even as he confesses he reluctantly voted for her.

    But his bigger frustration is with what he sees as the detached and technocratic backgrounds of so many people in centrist politics nowadays.

    “If you think about the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party, they were singing hymns on the train platform as they went off to work. And they were of ‘those people’,” he says. “If you think of someone like Gordon Brown, who I have immense admiration for, and Obama — and the high point of my year this year was my meeting with Obama — he’s not one of ‘those people’ any more. He’s an intellectual with progressive views who is making policy in a way that he judges is good for those people.”


    Nobel Economist Angus Deaton

    https://www.ft.com/content/bbf54b3e-c5f3-11e6-9043-7e34c07b46ef
    Yes but in a sense that was always true of the Labour Party which even in its early years was mainly run by intellectuals.
    Leaders of the Labour Party & their first jobs

    Keir Hardie: - age 7, messenger boy
    Arthur Henderson: age 12, locomotive factory
    George Barnes: age 7, jute mill
    Ramsay McDonald: age 15, farm labourer
    William Adamson: miner
    J R Clynes age 10, cotton mill
    George Lansbury: Coal wagons
    Clement Attlee - Oxford, Barrister
    Hugh Gaitskill -Oxford, Fabian Research Bureau
    George Brown - Junior Clerk
    Harold Wilson: - Oxford, Oxford Don
    James Callaghan: - Inland Revenue Clerk
    Michael Foot: - Oxford, Shipping Clerk
    Neil Kinnock: - Tutor
    John Smith: - Glasgow, Solicitor
    Tony Blair: - Oxford, Barrister
    Gordon Bown: - Edinburgh, Lecturer
    Ed Miliband - Oxford, Media Researcher
    Jeremy Corbyn - Union Official

    So, I think the Nobel Laureate's contention that "the first leaders of the UK’s Labour party....... were of ‘those people’ stands, and Corbyn, arguably is much nearer Labour Party roots than the Oxford Mafia that's run the Party since Clem Attlee's days...


    Corbyn is an enigma. I know some Tories who quite like him [ "because he talks as it is" ]. One [ though not his wife ] will actually vote Labour because of him. We will to see about that.
  • Chris said:

    "And the winner is English politics where the three party leaders consist of a woman being petulant over leather trousers, a malign tramp and a man with all the charisma of a cloakroom attendant."

    It seems a little unfair to characterise Nicola Sturgeon as a "malign tramp".

    Ha ha, hee hee.

    If only Sturgeon was in 'English politics', that would've been a REAL ZINGER!
  • Incidentally, if anyone got gift certificates etc, do give Kingdom Asunder a look:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingdom-Asunder-Bloody-Crown-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B01N8UF799/

    It's a deliciously bloody medieval war of treachery and bastardry.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Mr. rkrkrk, must agree with that.

    The postal voting is the problem. That's what needs addressing.

    My issue with postal votng is we just don't know and it's hard to see how we could know if there is intimidation or something else... Potentially within a household. At the same time... I can see that having to go to a polling station is inconvenient and sometimes impossible for people. If restricted... I would like to see extended polling station opening (perhaps over one or more days) to compensate.

    By the way... Found the free time over Christmas to purchase Kingdom Asunder. Initially a bit confused about who was who as I was reading but I have got the hang of it now.

    Apologies if it is there and I missed it... But I would have liked a family tree as a reference. Enjoying the book though which is good value for twists and betrayals. About 20% so far only as sadly back at work.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Cyclefree said:

    And with a cartoon by the lovely Marf. I am blessed!

    Just an attempt to lighten the mood, after quite a year and - lately - some rather tetchy threads.

    Anyway, I saw Sully: Miracle on the Hudson yesterday. Well worth it. Genuinely exciting and quite moving.

    And now I have to find some straw to protect my tree ferns from frost.

    An enjoyable thread, especially as it has shown just how po-faced the miserable gits of the Left are. Frankly guys, humour is all you have left.

    Thought there might be an award for Fridge Salesman of the Year?

    You are slightly more generous about Sully than I was. Enjoyed Gold, with Hair and Make-up deserving of an award for making Matt McConaughey look like a balding slob. Jackie is also well worth a watch. I defy you to watch A Monster Calls without blubbing. Award for the Film That Most Stays With You. Birth of a Nation was provocatively titled - but did little to justify that provocation. It told us little we didn't already know about brutality of slave owners, especially with regard to dentistry.

    But the film I have enjoyed the most this BAFTA season, and that by a country mile, was Hidden Figures, about the coloured women working - segregated - in the NASA programme to beat the Russians into space and then the moon. Flawless. Delightful. Uplifting. Says everything wonderful about their contribution without being perpetually right-on or cloying. Beautifully written, acted and put on the screen. *****
    Thanks for the recommendation. It's strange. My daughter was saying just yesterday that the thing she most admired about NASA was its sense of common purpose. She said she someone who was basically a janitor being interviewed in the early 60s and being asked what he did. He said, "I send men to the moon". And at the same time they had segregated workers? Sounds interesting.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited December 2016

    Passports don't have addresses; utility bills don't have photos and are not addressed to every member of a household. The only ID that works is a driving licence - so that's my wife, my mother-in-law, my Mum, my daughter and middle son all denied a vote. Only the mother-in-law's a Tory, so it's a net win for the Blues - which I guess is the point.

    Singing from the same hymn sheet

    "“And the real problem is, the people most likely not to have a a passport, or a driving licence, are going to be the poorest, and that, I suspect - once again, like the decision last year to knock a lot of people off the electoral register - will basically hit the Labour Party."

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ken-livingstone-attacks-voter-id-scheme-to-combat-election-fraud-as-antilabour-a3428501.html
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Slightly surprised this news hasn't got more coverage: "Electoral fraud: Voters will have to show ID in pilot scheme"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38440934

    Generally seems like a good idea.

    Sounds more like the slippery slope to compulsory ID cards, neatly combined with measures more likely to hurt Labour, as Ken Livingstone points out in the link. Is there any evidence of personation at polling stations? Surely most of the abuses by all parties have involved postal votes.
    "...slippery slope to compulsory ID cards..."

    And, we can't even blame the EU !
  • rkrkrk said:

    My issue with postal votng is we just don't know and it's hard to see how we could know if there is intimidation or something else... Potentially within a household.

    You don't really know that with in-person voting any more either. The little booths used to work as a security measure, but they've been defeated by camera phones.
  • Mr. rkrkrk, interesting comment on the family trees. That's possible as an addition (I'm planning on doing a print version so I can add it there).

    I'm glad you're enjoying the tale of a brave lesbian's battle against the patriarchy. Ahem.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    There's a reference upthread to a David Cameron. Who he?

    A rich arsehole who fucked up the country while trying to solve a party problem.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    On electoral fraud, I would have thought we could all agree - regardless of our politics - that the sort of practices so forensically dissected in the judgment which led to Lutfur Rahman's election in Tower Hamlets being overturned should be stamped down on hard.

    As for postal voting, I think this should be restricted to those who have a genuine need i.e. those who can prove they will be out of the country or away from their normal residence or who cannot get to the polling station.

    As for ID I am open to suggestions but we need to allow alternative forms of ID for those who don't have driving licences, for instance. This should not prove that difficult. The same issues arise when opening bank accounts. The integrity of the electoral system must be maintained.
  • @isam - it's just a matter of fact that a lot of people do not have photo ID which carries an address, while utility bills do not have photos and are not addressed to every member of a household. I was being flippant about Tories benefitting from the plans. In the end because so many people will be adversely affected it will mean us all paying to have ID cards.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    surbiton said:

    Essexit said:

    Excellent thread header, Ms Cyclefree, but I have to disagree with one of your awards. Surely the best cleavage is within the Labour Party?

    Definitely and they are socialist too ! TM's are pathetic. CF needs an eye test.
    Theresa May is the Mother of the Nation, from whose breasts we should suckle.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545
    Thanks for a fun thread Cyclefree.

    On the Voter ID thing, I agree with you that postal voting is a much bigger issue. But if ID is required, why not just use polling cards? They are posted to every household anyway with name and address on. At the moment you don't need your polling card to vote (and the Labour Party send round some dodgy imitation poll cards looking official and telling you to vote for them) but most people do bring them to the polling stations. As it has the ID number for the voter, it would speed up the voting process as well, and to intercept it you'd have to get hold of someone's mail.

    Wouldn't hit the photo element but I'm not sure that's workable given the number of people who'll struggle to provide photo and address ID. Just strikes me that mandatory polling cards would solve 90% of the problem for 10% of the hassle.
  • Mr. tpfkar, a sensible suggestion.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    rkrkrk said:

    My issue with postal votng is we just don't know and it's hard to see how we could know if there is intimidation or something else... Potentially within a household.

    You don't really know that with in-person voting any more either. The little booths used to work as a security measure, but they've been defeated by camera phones.
    Can't we just tell people they aren't allowed to bring their phones into voting booths?
  • Cyclefree said:

    And with a cartoon by the lovely Marf. I am blessed!

    Just an attempt to lighten the mood, after quite a year and - lately - some rather tetchy threads.

    Anyway, I saw Sully: Miracle on the Hudson yesterday. Well worth it. Genuinely exciting and quite moving.

    And now I have to find some straw to protect my tree ferns from frost.

    An enjoyable thread, especially as it has shown just how po-faced the miserable gits of the Left are. Frankly guys, humour is all you have left.

    Thought there might be an award for Fridge Salesman of the Year?

    You are slightly more generous about Sully than I was. Enjoyed Gold, with Hair and Make-up deserving of an award for making Matt McConaughey look like a balding slob. Jackie is also well worth a watch. I defy you to watch A Monster Calls without blubbing. Award for the Film That Most Stays With You. Birth of a Nation was provocatively titled - but did little to justify that provocation. It told us little we didn't already know about brutality of slave owners, especially with regard to dentistry.

    But the film I have enjoyed the most this BAFTA season, and that by a country mile, was Hidden Figures, about the coloured women working - segregated - in the NASA programme to beat the Russians into space and then the moon. Flawless. Delightful. Uplifting. Says everything wonderful about their contribution without being perpetually right-on or cloying. Beautifully written, acted and put on the screen. *****
    FWIW, Hidden Figures is best-priced to win the 2017 Best Picture Oscar, at 66/1 with Bet365 and SkyBet, where it appears about 14th down Oddschecker's very long list of candidates.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    @isam - it's just a matter of fact that a lot of people do not have photo ID which carries an address, while utility bills do not have photos and are not addressed to every member of a household. I was being flippant about Tories benefitting from the plans. In the end because so many people will be adversely affected it will mean us all paying to have ID cards.

    Don't think I do as it happens.. what would have that I wonder? I don't really mind ID cards, although haven't given the pros and cons much thought.


  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    Cyclefree said:

    On electoral fraud, I would have thought we could all agree - regardless of our politics - that the sort of practices so forensically dissected in the judgment which led to Lutfur Rahman's election in Tower Hamlets being overturned should be stamped down on hard.

    As for postal voting, I think this should be restricted to those who have a genuine need i.e. those who can prove they will be out of the country or away from their normal residence or who cannot get to the polling station.

    As for ID I am open to suggestions but we need to allow alternative forms of ID for those who don't have driving licences, for instance. This should not prove that difficult. The same issues arise when opening bank accounts. The integrity of the electoral system must be maintained.

    I really don't want it made more difficult to vote. At 65% for GE and even less for locals those that do vote are already materially different from the community as a whole. It also distorts our politicians' priorities resulting in absurd generosity to pensioners for example.

    Harvesting of postal votes is simply wrong and anything even close to this needs to be banned. On personation I would want evidence that it genuinely is an issue. Has anyone ever heard of anyone turning up to vote and finding they already have?
  • rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    My issue with postal votng is we just don't know and it's hard to see how we could know if there is intimidation or something else... Potentially within a household.

    You don't really know that with in-person voting any more either. The little booths used to work as a security measure, but they've been defeated by camera phones.
    Can't we just tell people they aren't allowed to bring their phones into voting booths?
    You can tell them if you like but that won't stop them. And cameras get smaller, more portable and more omnipresent every cycle.
  • Cyclefree, a great funny article to start the day.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "Can't we just tell people they aren't allowed to bring their phones into voting booths?"

    It is already illegal to use a camera within a polling station.

    In fact there seem to have been quick a few illegal practices that were tolerated in the Tower Hamlets case. So much so that one has to wonder about the person in charge.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited December 2016
    @SouthamObserver

    You have mentioned a few times that you wespent time in the Midlands (Brum?) years ago, and wondered why the Muslim population there has become less westernised with time. Here, from 14:50 to 17:50 Enoch Powell talks precisely about why that will happen, using Birmingham as the example.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sfovPxT3Fg
This discussion has been closed.