Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » 2017 opens for Corbyn with top union boss raising doubts about

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » 2017 opens for Corbyn with top union boss raising doubts about his performance and future

Interesting remarks from McCluskey. The dreaded vote of confidence in Corbyns leadership. Why make the remarks now? https://t.co/wBfpwXDUh1

Read the full story here


«1

Comments

  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    First like MVG
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2017
    Distant second like all the other darters...
  • Options
    I still think it'll be 2018.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Outrageous way to finish the game. Almost as outrageous as the goal I saw at the Emirates today.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2017
    What do you say about that...D18 D18 finish...crush puny human....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    And MvG wins with 90, taken out as 18, D18 and D18. That's exhibition play.
    Barney averaged 110 and didn't know what the hell hit him!

    Was it really four years ago that this happened?
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=pGNZ3GqYrVY
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    So the new year is the same as the old year then? Where has the magic gone?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    On topic, surely a back at evens, given the chance of an early election?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    SeanT said:

    Has this been on the news?!

    1000 migrants try to storm the Spanish border at Ceuta.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-1-000-migrants-storm-border-spains-ceuta-161029585.html

    This is beginning to resemble a war. The early stages thereof. 2017 starts ominously.

    why on earth do the Spanish still have enclaves in North Africa?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    SeanT said:

    Has this been on the news?!

    1000 migrants try to storm the Spanish border at Ceuta.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-1-000-migrants-storm-border-spains-ceuta-161029585.html

    This is beginning to resemble a war. The early stages thereof. 2017 starts ominously.

    Have you read Christopher Caldwells book??? It's all in there
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    nunu said:

    SeanT said:

    Has this been on the news?!

    1000 migrants try to storm the Spanish border at Ceuta.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-1-000-migrants-storm-border-spains-ceuta-161029585.html

    This is beginning to resemble a war. The early stages thereof. 2017 starts ominously.

    why on earth do the Spanish still have enclaves in North Africa?
    The Spanish people there want to remain Spanish? Or does geographical proximity override such concerns?
  • Options
    Ceuta and Melilla are governed as integral parts of Spain, not as "Overseas Territories".
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Ceuta and Melilla are governed as integral parts of Spain, not as "Overseas Territories".

    I've always wondered why overseas territories don't have MPs.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,149

    Ceuta and Melilla are governed as integral parts of Spain, not as "Overseas Territories".

    So the EU has a foothold in Africa. Does Schengen apply there?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    geoffw said:

    Ceuta and Melilla are governed as integral parts of Spain, not as "Overseas Territories".

    So the EU has a foothold in Africa. Does Schengen apply there?
    I believe they are part of Schengen.
  • Options
    Yep, Ceuta and Melilla are conversation stoppers when chatting to Spanish folk about Gibraltar.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    Has this been on the news?!

    1000 migrants try to storm the Spanish border at Ceuta.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-1-000-migrants-storm-border-spains-ceuta-161029585.html

    This is beginning to resemble a war. The early stages thereof. 2017 starts ominously.

    Its going to get worse.

    In Nigeria alone there are about 80 million under 14s.

    How many of them might decide that Europe is their promised land.

    The world's most backward countries seem capable of producing nothing but children:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_fertility_rate
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    Yep, Ceuta and Melilla are conversation stoppers when chatting to Spanish folk about Gibraltar.

    La misma, pero diferente. :)
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847
    Had the British played a better hand historically, we might have finished up with the Balearics and the Canaries as well as Gibraltar.
  • Options
    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?
  • Options
    @stodge

    Don't forget Tangier!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    stodge said:

    Had the British played a better hand historically, we might have finished up with the Balearics and the Canaries as well as Gibraltar.

    We held Minorca for quite a while.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    SeanT said:

    isam said:

    SeanT said:

    Has this been on the news?!

    1000 migrants try to storm the Spanish border at Ceuta.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-1-000-migrants-storm-border-spains-ceuta-161029585.html

    This is beginning to resemble a war. The early stages thereof. 2017 starts ominously.

    Have you read Christopher Caldwells book??? It's all in there
    I ordered it today on your advice.
    Oh cool, hope you 'enjoy' it... it's a great book but the truth really hurts.
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Spain was meant to hand Olivenza back to Portugal after the Napoleonic Wars. Something else to mention if Gibraltar comes up in conversation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivenza#Claims_of_sovereignty
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    SeanT said:

    stodge said:

    Had the British played a better hand historically, we might have finished up with the Balearics and the Canaries as well as Gibraltar.

    We were bollocks at holding on to nice places.

    Malta and the Seychelles WANTED to stay British. We should have agreed, and incorporated them into the UK as the French did.

    The Seychelles. We lost the Seychelles! - they are literally paradise. Tsk.
    Interestingly present day France controls more ocean (as an exclusive economic zone) than any other country, above the US, thanks to having so many islands spread around the world.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless

    I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)

    It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
    I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.

    I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    SeanT said:

    stodge said:

    Had the British played a better hand historically, we might have finished up with the Balearics and the Canaries as well as Gibraltar.

    We were bollocks at holding on to nice places.

    Malta and the Seychelles WANTED to stay British. We should have agreed, and incorporated them into the UK as the French did.

    The Seychelles. We lost the Seychelles! - they are literally paradise. Tsk.
    We kinda naused it up with Malta by forgetting to invite them to the coronation.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,710
    RobD said:

    Ceuta and Melilla are governed as integral parts of Spain, not as "Overseas Territories".

    I've always wondered why overseas territories don't have MPs.
    Its a bit of a lecture but I can tell you if you like.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,393
    SeanT said:

    stodge said:

    Had the British played a better hand historically, we might have finished up with the Balearics and the Canaries as well as Gibraltar.

    We were bollocks at holding on to nice places.

    Malta and the Seychelles WANTED to stay British. We should have agreed, and incorporated them into the UK as the French did.

    The Seychelles. We lost the Seychelles! - they are literally paradise. Tsk.
    The British establishment has been on a suicide mission as far as Britain's actual interests are concerned for years.
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    RobD said:

    nunu said:

    SeanT said:

    Has this been on the news?!

    1000 migrants try to storm the Spanish border at Ceuta.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-1-000-migrants-storm-border-spains-ceuta-161029585.html

    This is beginning to resemble a war. The early stages thereof. 2017 starts ominously.

    why on earth do the Spanish still have enclaves in North Africa?
    The Spanish people there want to remain Spanish? Or does geographical proximity override such concerns?
    Of course geographic proximity overrides it if you worry about a takeover of the mainland by poor people of a foreign culture.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    nunu said:

    RobD said:

    nunu said:

    SeanT said:

    Has this been on the news?!

    1000 migrants try to storm the Spanish border at Ceuta.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/more-1-000-migrants-storm-border-spains-ceuta-161029585.html

    This is beginning to resemble a war. The early stages thereof. 2017 starts ominously.

    why on earth do the Spanish still have enclaves in North Africa?
    The Spanish people there want to remain Spanish? Or does geographical proximity override such concerns?
    Of course geographic proximity overrides it if you worry about a takeover of the mainland by poor people of a foreign culture.
    They seem to have it under control, the article stated that the only people to get over the border were two who were taken to hospital.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    I think McCluskey's comments are just an indirect response to Coyne's attempt to portray him as a mindless Corbyn supporter.
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless

    I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)

    It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
    I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.

    I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
    I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.

    I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
    I'm fortunate - Chilean and Australian at £5 to £7 is my optimum range.

    Having a good wine palate is a financial curse.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,330

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless

    I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)

    It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
    I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.

    I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
    I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.

    I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
    I'm fortunate - Chilean and Australian at £5 to £7 is my optimum range.

    Having a good wine palate is a financial curse.
    Cristal - you are paying 50% for the name. Pol Roger is simply less of a "name" - not too many footballers and their imitators have heard of it.

    As with much wine, the joy is in trying the minor producers and finding the hidden gems.

    A vast array of minor Champagne producers are now importing to the UK. Try them, look at the tasting notes on line.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    This is hardly big news, mcclusky is just giving Corbyn three years to Improve labours dire poll ratings. It shouldn't be that difficult as the tories get in to a muddle over brexit.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Also I predict mcclusky will win this election on a low turnout.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/01/01/here-are-the-8-trump-cabinet-picks-democrats-plan-to-target/?utm_term=.ddbc21c3e003#comments

    Democrats' top targets are Tillrson, De Vos, Sessions and Mulvaney (who!?)
    Not sure how far this is posturing but I think we will see some pretty nasty fights over this.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Corbyn will be able to prove himself.

    You know where ?

    Copeland xD
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Pulpstar said:

    Corbyn will be able to prove himself.

    You know where ?

    Copeland xD

    Well quite. Labour have a 6.5% lead in the seat, they are in opposition to a Conservative government, who are the main challengers in the seat. Sounds like an easy win, so why are Labour 2.6 and the Tories an odds-on 1.9?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Corbyn will be able to prove himself.

    You know where ?

    Copeland xD

    Well quite. Labour have a 6.5% lead in the seat, they are in opposition to a Conservative government, who are the main challengers in the seat. Sounds like an easy win, so why are Labour 2.6 and the Tories an odds-on 1.9?
    It is a modern day mystery:

    Tories -11.19
    Labour +194.84
    Green -132.78
    Lib Dem -351.44
    UKIP -478.94

    is my view at the moment anyway.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    I'm behind the game (100 to win 50) in this market at the moment, but not particularly worried.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Someone described corbyn as the tortoise of British politics. Even if lab get smashed in Copeland he will survive as he is backed by a) the organised far left who are active in the trade unions and many CLPs and b) armchair clictivists happy to support the cause. They don't even care about electability just want lab to be a platform for their views. Plus the 'bunker' mentality has set in with moderates blairites and the media being blamed for every setback.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,972

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless

    I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)

    It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
    I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.

    I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
    I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.

    I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
    I'm fortunate - Chilean and Australian at £5 to £7 is my optimum range.

    Having a good wine palate is a financial curse.
    Cristal - you are paying 50% for the name. Pol Roger is simply less of a "name" - not too many footballers and their imitators have heard of it.

    As with much wine, the joy is in trying the minor producers and finding the hidden gems.

    A vast array of minor Champagne producers are now importing to the UK. Try them, look at the tasting notes on line.
    Had some very good Argentine ‘sparkling Chardonnay/Pinot Noir” at a tasting recently. Moët & Chandon bought, some time ago, a vineyard in the Uco Valley area and have been working on the production of better quality champagne type wines. I’m not a great champagne drinker, but those who were there and are said it was excellent.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited January 2017
    nielh said:

    Someone described corbyn as the tortoise of British politics. Even if lab get smashed in Copeland he will survive as he is backed by a) the organised far left who are active in the trade unions and many CLPs and b) armchair clictivists happy to support the cause. They don't even care about electability just want lab to be a platform for their views. Plus the 'bunker' mentality has set in with moderates blairites and the media being blamed for every setback.

    A tortoise or a cockroach, able to survive a nuclear winter?

    The supporters don't care about winning the election, they seem to be happy to lose another 100 seats next time out as long as the manifesto reads exactly as they wish it to. Even when Corbyn eventually chooses to go, he will be replaced by another handpicked relic from the 1970s.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    @sandpit I think it is a bit more nuanced than that and labour party activists will not take defeat in by elections, council elections well. However at present there is no alternative Owen smith was seen as a fraud / blairite placeholder there is no option of a return to normal eg with a Burnham type figure.
    Whilst activists will turn against corbyn eventually the clicktivist/ far left will wait the troubles out and back their man. They will eventually turn on each other as they always do. Question is by that point will it be too late.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    As for the betfair odds, 50/50 is about right. No value in tying up money in this
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    1) It was probably hedged by being ordered well in advance.

    2) Certainly champers has gone downmarket, along with prosecco, partly through affordability, and partly as adding bubbles makes thin tasteless wine more drinkable.

    3) It is a loss leader, people come by to buy their special offers, but Tesco makes their money on the rest of the shop.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    nielh said:

    @sandpit I think it is a bit more nuanced than that and labour party activists will not take defeat in by elections, council elections well. However at present there is no alternative Owen smith was seen as a fraud / blairite placeholder there is no option of a return to normal eg with a Burnham type figure.
    Whilst activists will turn against corbyn eventually the clicktivist/ far left will wait the troubles out and back their man. They will eventually turn on each other as they always do. Question is by that point will it be too late.

    Of course, it is a little more nuanced in practice, but the.party does have a couple of hundred thousand 'supporters' who really don't care about being elected, only that they stand on a particular policy platform.

    It would be good to see a respectable centre-left leader (Kier Starmer springs to mind, although @Charles of this parish is vehemently opposed to him for personal experience reasons he can't write down, so maybe he has a skeleton or two in the closet), but that's not going to happen until the membership realise that winning elections is how their policy gets implemented.

    Meanwhile the government are not being opposed and held to account during a period of significant change, and the working classes don't have a natural party to support.

    And to think this all started with Eric Joyce and the Falkirk by-election. ;) Happy New Year!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I am coming round to Jezza. It's not that I think that he has the right policies, or any realistic chance (or even desire) to be PM, but rather what is going on underneath.

    Labour is safely in opposition so does not need to have a coherent position to counter the incoherent and undeliverable government Brexit agenda. It can reinvent itself. Jezza has added substantially to the membership, and a percentage of these new activists will become frustrated by opposition, so becoming self moderating.

    Jezza does seem to genuinely keep hands off local parties, and while this does mean in some seats that we will see Momentum types being "Looney Left", in other parts we will see a regeneration of grass roots local candidates for local people. Jezza is not one to parachute in, and of all tbe byelections so far there has been no interference with local parties picking local candidates. No SPADS or Momentum types chosen in either winnable or unwinnable seats.

    It will not be a quick regeneration, but it will be the end of New Labour, and quite likely to give Mays tired and fratricidal government aclose battle. Probably more like 92 than 97, but setting up for a serious return to government.

    I am on NoC for post the next election. Red Brexit will be popular.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    May could face the most foreseeable uncertainty of any PM that I can remember. Not sure how the EU will go, not sure who she'll face in the next election, and thanks to the PCP's wolfish tendencies, can't even be sure she'll make it that far.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    For those who read French, this December poll is interesting:

    http://www.ipsos.fr/sites/default/files/doc_associe/rapport_cevipof_-_eef2017_vague_9_decembre_2016_ipsos_le_monde.pdf

    Like most people I'd just seen the Presidential poll results, which are easily summarised: Fillon (conservative) is in a position to win, because the centre-left is divided and Le Pen falls short. Other polls show that Macron (centrist) is actually more popular than Fillon, but it doesn't look as though he'll make the last two. If Bayrou (also centrist) doesn't run the gap is not that enormous, so a long-odds punt on Macron might be worth considering, but Fillon is clearly hot favourite. It doesn't make much difference who the socialists put up.

    But there are other findings too. An interesting one is what people expect of someone who wants to be considered French. Almost everyone wants them to respect other people's opinions and (more unexpectedly) to vote in elections (can't imagine that being seen as crucial in Britain). Whether they live in France or embrace French values is not seen as quite so important - still majority support, but the latter is significantly correlated with political sympathy - Front Nationale and conservative supporters care a lot, centre-left supporters aren't quite so bothered.
  • Options
    nielh said:

    Someone described corbyn as the tortoise of British politics. Even if lab get smashed in Copeland he will survive as he is backed by a) the organised far left who are active in the trade unions and many CLPs and b) armchair clictivists happy to support the cause. They don't even care about electability just want lab to be a platform for their views. Plus the 'bunker' mentality has set in with moderates blairites and the media being blamed for every setback.

    Has JC ever said he wants to be Prime Minister?

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    Sandpit said:

    nielh said:

    @sandpit I think it is a bit more nuanced than that and labour party activists will not take defeat in by elections, council elections well. However at present there is no alternative Owen smith was seen as a fraud / blairite placeholder there is no option of a return to normal eg with a Burnham type figure.
    Whilst activists will turn against corbyn eventually the clicktivist/ far left will wait the troubles out and back their man. They will eventually turn on each other as they always do. Question is by that point will it be too late.

    Of course, it is a little more nuanced in practice, but the.party does have a couple of hundred thousand 'supporters' who really don't care about being elected, only that they stand on a particular policy platform.

    It would be good to see a respectable centre-left leader (Kier Starmer springs to mind, although @Charles of this parish is vehemently opposed to him for personal experience reasons he can't write down, so maybe he has a skeleton or two in the closet), but that's not going to happen until the membership realise that winning elections is how their policy gets implemented.

    Meanwhile the government are not being opposed and held to account during a period of significant change, and the working classes don't have a natural party to support.

    And to think this all started with Eric Joyce and the Falkirk by-election. ;) Happy New Year!
    The government have an internal opposition, and one that contains the seeds of its destruction.

    Labour thinkers are ahead of my own party, where Farron is carving out the continuity Remain vote. There certainly are Labour figures doing the same, but also a distinct shift to a Red Brexit philosophy of immigration control, and protectionism of both industries and workers rights. It is a move that will prove popular, and one that Jezza can claim to have supported all along.

    I would like to see the LDs take a more realistic line too, but something like feather-mattress Brexit so soft that it is Brexit in name only. In practice this is undeliverable, but for an opposition that is not a problem.

    May having to oppose both feather soft Yellow Brexit and Red in tooth and claw Brexit, while having to deliver well beyond her fairly modest skill set will set up a fairly competitive 2020 election. She is at risk from cut and run prior to that too, as a 2017-9 GE could only occur via a massive internal feud in her own party.

    May and the Tories are nowhere near as secure as they first appear.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    1) It was probably hedged by being ordered well in advance.

    2) Certainly champers has gone downmarket, along with prosecco, partly through affordability, and partly as adding bubbles makes thin tasteless wine more drinkable.

    3) It is a loss leader, people come by to buy their special offers, but Tesco makes their money on the rest of the shop.
    And some reductions will be to clear stock left over from Christmas.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    1) It was probably hedged by being ordered well in advance.

    2) Certainly champers has gone downmarket, along with prosecco, partly through affordability, and partly as adding bubbles makes thin tasteless wine more drinkable.

    3) It is a loss leader, people come by to buy their special offers, but Tesco makes their money on the rest of the shop.
    Loss leader. In addition, most people during it sufficiently infrequently so not to realise that they're drinking, at then end of the market, thin, acidic alcohol.
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    O/T

    Does anyone know what's happening in Mosul? I can't seem to find any Western based news reports more recent than the end of October
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    nielh said:

    Someone described corbyn as the tortoise of British politics. Even if lab get smashed in Copeland he will survive as he is backed by a) the organised far left who are active in the trade unions and many CLPs and b) armchair clictivists happy to support the cause. They don't even care about electability just want lab to be a platform for their views. Plus the 'bunker' mentality has set in with moderates blairites and the media being blamed for every setback.

    Has JC ever said he wants to be Prime Minister?

    Jon Snow came close to getting him to say it a few months ago. From 2'45"
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=RS4FDX_uYrk
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Rog, there was a little a couple of weeks ago. Nothing too exciting, just that fighting was intensifying again after a lull.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    nielh said:

    Someone described corbyn as the tortoise of British politics. Even if lab get smashed in Copeland he will survive as he is backed by a) the organised far left who are active in the trade unions and many CLPs and b) armchair clictivists happy to support the cause. They don't even care about electability just want lab to be a platform for their views. Plus the 'bunker' mentality has set in with moderates blairites and the media being blamed for every setback.

    Has JC ever said he wants to be Prime Minister?

    https://www.google.com.et/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=#&ved=0ahUKEwj51KLPh6PRAhVHO1AKHT87C2UQwqsBCCcwAg&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA

    He has said it. What confuses people I think is Corbyn wants to be PM on his own terms and to an unusual extent does not want to sacrifice his principles.

    There is probably very little someone like Andy Burnham wouldn't do to become PM. Corbyn won't even lie and says he believes in nuclear weapons to win.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    For those who read French, this December poll is interesting:

    http://www.ipsos.fr/sites/default/files/doc_associe/rapport_cevipof_-_eef2017_vague_9_decembre_2016_ipsos_le_monde.pdf

    Like most people I'd just seen the Presidential poll results, which are easily summarised: Fillon (conservative) is in a position to win, because the centre-left is divided and Le Pen falls short. Other polls show that Macron (centrist) is actually more popular than Fillon, but it doesn't look as though he'll make the last two. If Bayrou (also centrist) doesn't run the gap is not that enormous, so a long-odds punt on Macron might be worth considering, but Fillon is clearly hot favourite. It doesn't make much difference who the socialists put up.

    But there are other findings too. An interesting one is what people expect of someone who wants to be considered French. Almost everyone wants them to respect other people's opinions and (more unexpectedly) to vote in elections (can't imagine that being seen as crucial in Britain). Whether they live in France or embrace French values is not seen as quite so important - still majority support, but the latter is significantly correlated with political sympathy - Front Nationale and conservative supporters care a lot, centre-left supporters aren't quite so bothered.

    I amsure "French values" are as contentious as "British values".

    Catholicism and Monarchism? De Gaulle or Vichy? Bourbonism or Jacobite? Zola or Sartre or Proust?

    While we have to decide who is more British. Wellington or William Cobbett? Ned Ludd or IK Brunel? HM or Rabbi Lionel Blue? Maggie Thatcher or Tony Benn?

    All nationalities are multistranded, as much in France as here. Defining these values is largely a matter of fencing them in.

  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    Mr. Rog, there was a little a couple of weeks ago. Nothing too exciting, just that fighting was intensifying again after a lull.

    Thanks MD, I think there may be a bit of a news blackout over this especially after the blanket coverage of the preamble
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    Blue_rog said:

    Mr. Rog, there was a little a couple of weeks ago. Nothing too exciting, just that fighting was intensifying again after a lull.

    Thanks MD, I think there may be a bit of a news blackout over this especially after the blanket coverage of the preamble
    The Economist had a good article not so far ago. Consolidation and attrition was my impression, and tempting IS into ineffective and costly counter attacks.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Blue_rog said:

    Mr. Rog, there was a little a couple of weeks ago. Nothing too exciting, just that fighting was intensifying again after a lull.

    Thanks MD, I think there may be a bit of a news blackout over this especially after the blanket coverage of the preamble
    That's a good point, there does seem to be less and less written about it. I had assumed that the Hereford branch of the Diplomatic Service were doing the job as they usually do, and we'd find out about it later.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless

    I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)

    It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
    I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.

    I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
    I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.

    I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
    It has been suggested that the best champagnes at reasonable prices are the supermarkets' own labels because these have been expertly blended in the last few years.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Sandpit said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Mr. Rog, there was a little a couple of weeks ago. Nothing too exciting, just that fighting was intensifying again after a lull.

    Thanks MD, I think there may be a bit of a news blackout over this especially after the blanket coverage of the preamble
    That's a good point, there does seem to be less and less written about it. I had assumed that the Hereford branch of the Diplomatic Service were doing the job as they usually do, and we'd find out about it later.
    I think the Moscow's finest are probably closer to the action.
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless

    I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)

    It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
    I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.

    I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
    I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.

    I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
    It has been suggested that the best champagnes at reasonable prices are the supermarkets' own labels because these have been expertly blended in the last few years.
    Denbies make a more interesting sparkling wine than champagne and it comes out well in many wine tastings.

    http://www.visitsurrey.com/things-to-do/denbies-wine-estate-p68293
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    On Mosul: coverage will also be lower due to the eclipse of Aleppo reporting.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,972
    edited January 2017
    On Mosul, there were a few reports recently, as others have said, but suggested

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    On a different topic Tesco have been selling champagne for £8.

    Various thoughts:

    1) They don't seem concerned about currency movements

    2) I remember when champagne was regarded as a posh, expensive drink for the likes of James Hunt - its now only double the price of the cheapest wine or a pint of beer in London

    3) Why do supermarkets reduced the price of champagne at the times (Christmas and New Year, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day) when people are likely to buy it in any case ?

    That will be some shit champagne. But a fair point nonetheless

    I'm always amazed by the glut of smoked salmon post-Xmas. You can buy tons of it for pennies (and I love it, so I indulge)

    It's like the supermarkets ALWAYS over-estimate how much they will sell. Which seems odd.
    I'm not sure Tesco sell any shit wine these days unless they're still stocking Blue Nun, Le Piat d'Or and other branded rubbish from the 1980s.

    I doubt much supermarket champagne is bought for the taste in any case but for more social reasons.
    I think champagne is like all wines. You do get noticeably nicer bubbles as you climb the ladder to about £50 a bottle - beyond that snobbery, branding and rarity kick in and the gains in flavour are tiny and incremental, if they exist at all, and the pricing is insane.

    I had my first bottle of Cristal (bought by a mate) the other day. £150. Couldn't distinguish it from a vintage Pol Roger costing, say, £60. But I CAN distinguish the £60 bottle from a £10 Sainsburys own brand champers
    It has been suggested that the best champagnes at reasonable prices are the supermarkets' own labels because these have been expertly blended in the last few years.
    Denbies make a more interesting sparkling wine than champagne and it comes out well in many wine tastings.

    http://www.visitsurrey.com/things-to-do/denbies-wine-estate-p68293
    English sparkling is doing very well generally in tastings. There’s a good Cornish one. https://www.camelvalley.com
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,972
    Sorry; started to post about Mosul, then realised I would be duplicating others. Thjought I’d erased it but vanilla apparently saved it!
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    From what I hear the NHS is one epidemic short of meltdown. Through all the media chatter over Christmas about Brexit the only line that regularly cut through was the £350,000,000 for the NHS. (That's what effective advertising slogans do!)

    If Article 50 moves centre stage at the same moment the NHS goes into meltdown this could be Corbyn's big chance.

    May and her government now own the '£350,000,000' whether they like it or not and though Corbyn's famous for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity (Eban) this could be too big an open goal to miss.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Roger, could you provide a quote for May supporting the £350m line?
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Nonsense Roger. The Conservative Party manifesto makes no mention of £350 million a week, That was Farage and other far right brexiters picking numbers out of the air.
  • Options
    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    Nonsense Roger. The Conservative Party manifesto makes no mention of £350 million a week, That was Farage and other far right brexiters picking numbers out of the air.

    Like the Foreign Secretary, for example.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited January 2017
    Indeed Bromptonaut.. He's been slapped down enough by Mrs May.. He will be sacked soon if he doesn't button it.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    MD

    Of course not. But as soon as she said 'Brexit Means Brexit' she not only bought into the concept but she also took ownership of all their previous marketing. That's how it works. She now owns the Brexit brand of which £350,000,000 for the NHS is an integral part.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    The police in Cologne are catching a whole load of liberal ire today after it has been revealed that they used racial profiling to stop a repeat of last year. You can't win, it seems. These liberals seem to prefer for women to get assaulted than for the police to use necessary measures to stop it from happening. The European liberal left has a lot to answer for.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,915

    Nonsense Roger. The Conservative Party manifesto makes no mention of £350 million a week, That was Farage and other far right brexiters picking numbers out of the air.

    It sure as hell wasn't Farage, he was one of the few prominent Leavers who said it was a mistake to use that figure
  • Options
    Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185
    edited January 2017
    I think your answer MD comes from May saying "Brexit means Brexit" which to 52% of the population means after we leave we will have £350m more each week to spend on the NHS. I agree with Roger that the Conservatives should be held to account to deliver on this Brexit promise.
  • Options
    It might just be the company I keep, but I recall hardly anyone really getting hung up on the "350million for the NHS" quote in the conversations I've had with friends, relatives, colleagues or random strangers about the referendum.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited January 2017
    TFS

    Radio 4 Radio 5 BBC1 and 2.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    Roger said:

    From what I hear the NHS is one epidemic short of meltdown. Through all the media chatter over Christmas about Brexit the only line that regularly cut through was the £350,000,000 for the NHS. (That's what effective advertising slogans do!)

    If Article 50 moves centre stage at the same moment the NHS goes into meltdown this could be Corbyn's big chance.

    May and her government now own the '£350,000,000' whether they like it or not and though Corbyn's famous for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity (Eban) this could be too big an open goal to miss.

    The NHS has probably been one epidemic short of a meltdown for decades.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Miss B/Mr. Roger, as someone who voted Leave, that's not what it means to me.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited January 2017
    SquareRoot

    "Nonsense Roger. The Conservative Party manifesto makes no mention of £350 million a week, That was Farage and other far right brexiters picking numbers out of the air."

    I think we're due a vsitation from Scott P!
  • Options
    Roger said:

    TFS

    Radio 4 Radio 5 BBC1 and 2.

    That's people who can be arsed to phone/text/tweet or email the BBC, an organisation that isn't renowned for being pro Brexit.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    edited January 2017
    Roger said:

    From what I hear the NHS is one epidemic short of meltdown. Through all the media chatter over Christmas about Brexit the only line that regularly cut through was the £350,000,000 for the NHS. (That's what effective advertising slogans do!)

    If Article 50 moves centre stage at the same moment the NHS goes into meltdown this could be Corbyn's big chance.

    May and her government now own the '£350,000,000' whether they like it or not and though Corbyn's famous for never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity (Eban) this could be too big an open goal to miss.

    May doesn't own anything regarding Brexit, she was a Remainer. To try and pin the £350m thing on her is utterly ridiculous, it would be like pinning it on Cameron had he not run off.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597
    On topic - I'll repeat a couple of past comments.

    Firstly, the Corbynites I have spoken to say that they believe that Jezza can win a GE.

    Secondly, Corbyn will step down if the PLP guarantee that his preferred candidate is on the ballot. Otherwise I would expect him to hold out to 2020 however bad the polls.

    On the off-topic, beer is superior to wine, fizzy or otherwise. Also part of our cultural heritage.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited January 2017
    "Asked whether the government could guarantee a “really substantial” extra amount of money per week for the NHS by 2020, Johnson said: “Well, yes, in the sense that clearly once we leave, and that isn’t possible until the final moment that of the change in our arrangements, and we take back control of the budgets we contribute to the EU.

    “Once that happens, clearly it will be possible for the UK government to spend people’s money on our priorities. And the number one priority for most people is the NHS. It sounds to me Andrew Lansley has got it right.”"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/boris-johnson-nhs-extra-funds-after-brexit-andrew-marr-lansley

    Not an issue till winter 20-21, anyway.

    I do slightly wonder why "the number one priority for most people is the NHS", though. Except when I am ill I never really think about it. Most people are not ill most of the time, and when not ill they don't seem to worry much about prospective medical issues - that is, many of them are happy to drink and get fat and so on. Other nations don't seem to worry much about their equivalent either, except in the States where they genuinely have got something to beef about. Is the NHS actually just a random political football which everyone has agreed to kick?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    I struggle to remember a winter when the NHS wasnt on the verge of meltdown.

  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    Indeed Bromptonaut.. He's been slapped down enough by Mrs May.. He will be sacked soon if he doesn't button it.

    She took the prize on the back of it - her inaction throughout the referendum stood out. I note that today's Times highlights her favourite activity of avoiding, evading responsibility. Like Gordon Brown but with less charm or sense of humour.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,915
    Ishmael_Z said:

    "Asked whether the government could guarantee a “really substantial” extra amount of money per week for the NHS by 2020, Johnson said: “Well, yes, in the sense that clearly once we leave, and that isn’t possible until the final moment that of the change in our arrangements, and we take back control of the budgets we contribute to the EU.

    “Once that happens, clearly it will be possible for the UK government to spend people’s money on our priorities. And the number one priority for most people is the NHS. It sounds to me Andrew Lansley has got it right.”"

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/25/boris-johnson-nhs-extra-funds-after-brexit-andrew-marr-lansley

    Not an issue till winter 20-21, anyway.

    I do slightly wonder why "the number one priority for most people is the NHS", though. Except when I am ill I never really think about it. Most people are not ill most of the time, and when not ill they don't seem to worry much about prospective medical issues - that is, many of them are happy to drink and get fat and so on. Other nations don't seem to worry much about their equivalent either, except in the States where they genuinely have got something to beef about. Is the NHS actually just a random political football which everyone has agreed to kick?

    It is just used by politicians to virtue signal and scare poorer people into thinking that they might die on the streets. NHS staff I spoke to recently ( only 3 so small sample) voted Leave, thought A&E should be charged for, and that the NHS should be privatised.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,972

    I struggle to remember a winter when the NHS wasnt on the verge of meltdown.

    And the staff will ‘manage’ as they always do; unpaid overtime, no breaks etc etc.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    https://twitter.com/gsoh31/status/815852082985058304

    https://twitter.com/gsoh31/status/815857908428763136

    Latest YouGov survey for The Times. Tables not yet up on YouGov website when I last checked, but essential details as follows:

    * Declining economic confidence
    * Tory numbers for economic competence have declined - but so have Labour's (more DKs, no other party benefiting)
    * More than half of 2015 Labour voters say Corbyn doing a bad job
    * Support for an early election is rising

    Report: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8bed19a2-d06c-11e6-962c-fe439ed038d1
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Sitting on the fence re the referendum was eminently sensible if you want to be PM. Not clever to find yourself on the losing side.

    In any case what others call out as inaction and evading responsibility is political bullshit. If you see a big hole in front of you its best to walk round it rather than fall straight into it (as Maggie did with the miners first time round).
    May is getting it in the neck because Labour isn't providing an opposition. Simples.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847
    When was the last time the combined UKIP and LD numbers were higher than the Labour number ?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,953

    For those who read French, this December poll is interesting:

    http://www.ipsos.fr/sites/default/files/doc_associe/rapport_cevipof_-_eef2017_vague_9_decembre_2016_ipsos_le_monde.pdf

    Like most people I'd just seen the Presidential poll results, which are easily summarised: Fillon (conservative) is in a position to win, because the centre-left is divided and Le Pen falls short. Other polls show that Macron (centrist) is actually more popular than Fillon, but it doesn't look as though he'll make the last two. If Bayrou (also centrist) doesn't run the gap is not that enormous, so a long-odds punt on Macron might be worth considering, but Fillon is clearly hot favourite. It doesn't make much difference who the socialists put up.

    But there are other findings too. An interesting one is what people expect of someone who wants to be considered French. Almost everyone wants them to respect other people's opinions and (more unexpectedly) to vote in elections (can't imagine that being seen as crucial in Britain). Whether they live in France or embrace French values is not seen as quite so important - still majority support, but the latter is significantly correlated with political sympathy - Front Nationale and conservative supporters care a lot, centre-left supporters aren't quite so bothered.

    That poll shows - again - how difficult it is for Marine Le Pen to win the French Presidency. She remains extremely transfer unfriendly, and with Fillon as the LR candidate, she's not even making to the high 20s in the first round. (she's 6-8% behind where she was 18 month ago) And, unlike the 'nationalist right' in other countries, the Front National has repeatedly underperformed its opinion poll scores in actual elections.

    I think it is entirely possible Bayrou does not stand and backs Macron. In that case, he could be on the low 20s, running Le Pen very close. If she underperforms, as happened in both sets on local elections in France in 2015, then it's possible (albeit not likely) that she isn't even in the final two.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    It might just be the company I keep, but I recall hardly anyone really getting hung up on the "350million for the NHS" quote in the conversations I've had with friends, relatives, colleagues or random strangers about the referendum.

    I overheard quite a few conversations about the £350 million in the campaign, but in the context of my waiting room.

    It cut through not just because older WWC are parrticularly reliant on the NHS, but also as a form of social conservatism. This is not the USA, and social conservatism here is nostalgia for the post war welfare state, from council housing to grammar schools, but the NHS centrestage.

    Hope that your family are being well treated by my LRI colleagues.
  • Options
    The likes of Roger would welcome an NHS meltdown. He would dance a jig of delight if Brexit turns into a crock of shit, and wet his pants with glee if Trump turns out to be as barmy as he appears to be. It reinforces his belief that his way is right, and anyone who voted Out, or Tory, or Trump deserves all they get. Roger drapes himself in the title "progressive". He's the type who nods sagely whenever he reads articles in the Guardian that reflect his view about the racist xenophobic "so called people". He can't understand that his belief that he and is ilk are right and good and his view of how the world should be isnt shared by everyone. That's the mindset that bought us Brexit. That's why Hillary Clinton didn't get her turn as POTUS. Thats why we're heading into chaos.
    Happy New Year!
  • Options
    Jeremy's relaunch as a populist, anti-establishment renegade has begun well then :-D
This discussion has been closed.