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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big BREXIT news – the resignation of Britain’s Ambassador

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The big BREXIT news – the resignation of Britain’s Ambassador to the EU only weeks before Article 50 due to be invoked

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  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    That headline is simply wrong: Brexit talks haven't started yet.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    Why are talks in 'chaos' because a man who opposed Brexit is no longer helping lead Brexit negotiations? Not to mention those negotiations have not even yet begun
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,285
    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/816408083043942401
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    What talks?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    RobD said:

    What talks?

    What Brexit? ;)
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,285
    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,896
    Political nerds getting excited because they think they've scored a cheap point in an argument they lost 6 months ago while normal people wonder why we haven't left yet
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    There is something a bit 1984 about Brexit Britain.

    Let the ideological purges commence. Only pure supporters of the party are able to fully understand the plan.

    Brexit is pure newspeak.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    Britain is going to be wholly exposed to the winds of global competition, and it will hurt, at first.

    Except it won't. What will happen is that Britain will be wholly exposed to the realities of its economic and geopolitical position in the world, and it will be humiliating. The people who imagine that a great alternative national strategy is there for us are delusional. We won't even get to square one of your Brexit vision.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited January 2017
    Sir Ivan Rogers, a man who was probably incapable of leading talks aimed at achieving the opposite of his beliefs.

    After years of EU intergration, cooperation and searching for harmony a 180 degree turn to dismantle years of work seemed incoherent and unattainable to him.

    Not really a shock in any way. Should allow for a more integrated and cohesive negotiation.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    williamglenn said:

    RobD said:

    What talks?

    What Brexit? ;)
    Cheeky!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,285
    Anyhoo, we're a little over two months from Mrs May explaining exactly what Brexit means.

    I suspect Sir Ivan's mum has to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, we're a little over two months from Mrs May explaining exactly what Brexit means.

    I suspect Sir Ivan's mum has to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is.

    Or at least the government's opening bid.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,285
    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    philiph said:

    Sir Ivan Rogers, a man who was probably incapable of leading talks aimed at achieving the opposite of his beliefs.

    After years of EU intergration, cooperation and searching for harmony a 180 degree turn to dismantle years of work seemed incoherent and unattainable to him.

    Not really a shock in any way. Should allow for a more integrated and cohesive negotiation.

    He already has his knighthood. Surely the ermine awaits.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,285
    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, we're a little over two months from Mrs May explaining exactly what Brexit means.

    I suspect Sir Ivan's mum has to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is.

    Or at least the government's opening bid.
    Opening bid will be a 10 year transitional deal for shits'n'giggles.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited January 2017
    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, we're a little over two months from Mrs May explaining exactly what Brexit means.

    I suspect Sir Ivan's mum has to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is.

    Or at least the government's opening bid.
    Govt. 1C
    EU ?


    Not sure the govt has 12-14HCP
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    Farage is still salty after not getting a gong in the honours list. :D
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,135
    Lord Hill lead the way.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited January 2017
    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    When the ball comes loose from the back of the scrum (again)...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    Her approval ratings appear to be about par, and level with Cameron's at the equivalent time in his premiership.

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-november-2016-charts.pdf
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    edited January 2017
    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    Her approval ratings appear to be about par, and level with Cameron's at the equivalent time in his premiership.

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-november-2016-charts.pdf
    Do you need me to get out the John Major 1991-1997 charts again?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    williamglenn said:

    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    Her approval ratings appear to be about par, and level with Cameron's at the equivalent time in his premiership.

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-november-2016-charts.pdf
    Do you need me to get out the John Major 1991-1997 charts again?
    That's also in there, the dotted blue line.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    All political leaders have popularity that goes south at some point.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Jonathan said:

    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    When the ball comes loose from the back of the scrum (again)...
    "Look chaps, we've got to be realistic. Brexit was a bold and noble gesture - we proved that Britain would not be cowed by the great and the good - but we've looked at all the alternatives now and we keep coming back to Dave's deal. It really was jolly good..."
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    philiph said:

    All political leaders have popularity that goes south at some point.

    Corbyn?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    williamglenn said:

    Jonathan said:

    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    When the ball comes loose from the back of the scrum (again)...
    "Look chaps, we've got to be realistic. Brexit was a bold and noble gesture - we proved that Britain would not be cowed by the great and the good - but we've looked at all the alternatives now and we keep coming back to Dave's deal. It really was jolly good..."
    "Dave's deal" and "jolly good" probably shouldn't be uttered in the same sentence!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    WG Switzerland and Norway both do rather better outside the EU than in it and neither are in the top 10 world economies unlike the UK
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    Her approval ratings appear to be about par, and level with Cameron's at the equivalent time in his premiership.

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-november-2016-charts.pdf
    Do you need me to get out the John Major 1991-1997 charts again?
    That's also in there, the dotted blue line.
    Oh yes, she's already doing worse than he did. :)
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    williamglenn said:

    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    RobD said:

    williamglenn said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    MaxPB said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Even the arch Leaver Tim Montgomerie is having a go at Mrs May over this.

    Clearly he sees an opportunity for IDS to ascend to the throne!
    Today (well yesterday, looking at the clock) Mrs May has been critcised by both Tim Montgomerie and Nigel Farage, by my reckoning she must be doing the right thing if she's getting criticised by those two.
    A leader with no viable alternative but who nobody really supports... It's going to go south rapidly at some point.
    Her approval ratings appear to be about par, and level with Cameron's at the equivalent time in his premiership.

    https://www.ipsos-mori.com/Assets/Docs/Polls/pm-november-2016-charts.pdf
    Do you need me to get out the John Major 1991-1997 charts again?
    That's also in there, the dotted blue line.
    Oh yes, she's already doing worse than he did. :)
    So was Cameron at the same point in his premiership.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    May is Major had he taken over in 1988 rather than 1990 which means she could be PM for most of the next decade. Goodnight
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    HYUFD said:

    WG Switzerland and Norway both do rather better outside the EU than in it and neither are in the top 10 world economies unlike the UK

    They do better than in it? They've never been in it so that hasn't been tested, and as both are in the single market they are effectively economic satellites of the EU.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    Switzerland is not fully in the single market but does deals on a sector by sector basis and has recently introduced migration controls giving preference to locals, not a million miles from what May wants to achieve
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Britain can no more be Switzerland than George Galloway can be the cat.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    edited January 2017
    Britain can eventually be a combination of Switzerland and Canada in its relationship with the EU which is what the public wants and what it most likely will ultimately be
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Leavers remind me of closet cases, whose nature repulses them so they suppress it and loudly proclaim an alternate identity.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,940
    edited January 2017
    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Laughable. And sad.

    That makes no sense as an analogy. Or as anything else.
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,619
    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Laughable. And sad.

    When you resort to abuse, you have lost the argument.


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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    "Sir Ivan was due to play key role in Brussels negotiations" for a whole 6 months......as he wisely observes, better get someone in from the beginning to see it all the way through.....

    Oh well, I suppose the i, Guardian et al could have led on yesterday's Manufacturing PMI......or not.....
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,619
    RobD said:

    Farage is still salty...

    Ew.

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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,619
    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Laughable. And sad.

    When you resort to abuse, you have lost the argument.


    Are you new here?
    It's late. I had a sudden attack of logic.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Trump is now mocking his own intelligence agency on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/816452807024840704
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    Sub Editor position opening at Mail soon:

    Sir Ivan Rogers was principal private secretary to Eurosceptic Ken Clarke

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4085982/Arrogant-merchant-gloom-Mrs-glad-ANDREW-PIERCE-writing-wall-Sir-Ivan-Rogers-months.html
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2017
    What a stupid headline....No A50 yet, so talks haven't started and ambassador who has quit was leaving in a few month anyway.

    If we were 12 months in and the lead guy quit, then yes, otherwise headline should be Pro-EU ambassador quits early before Brexit talks commence.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,981
    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Laughable. And sad.

    This reads like Garth Marenghi wrote it.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited January 2017
    Grim might be back up and running after a short New Year holibob....

    BREAKING NEWS: Serial killer Charles Manson is 'seriously ill' in hospital after being escorted from California prison
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    Let's not give too much weight to French regional election results when considering the presidential market.

    2015 regional election turnout: 50%

    Presidential election turnouts:
    2012: 80% (each round);
    2007: 84% (each round)
    2002: 72% R1, 80% R2
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    DromedaryDromedary Posts: 1,194
    williamglenn said:

    Trump is now mocking his own intelligence agency on Twitter.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/816452807024840704

    Vacancy for "patsy"?
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    It is curious why he is resigning now as there is little time for a replacement to get up to speed in the role. But otherwise this seems like a non story.
    Redwoods reaction was interesting
    "We need to appoint someone who thinks leaving the eu will be easy".
    Many leavers are still completely deluded about the scale of the task we are embarking on. Only david davis seems to be living in the real world. (Of the front bench leavers)
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    reading the Mail piece, seems like Si Ivan Rogers is a perfect match for our very own Mr Meeks.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited January 2017
    @MrTimT

    So emotionally invested in the EU that he is unable to accept and adhere to the thought process and implement the arguments required for Brexit during negotiations.

    His view of muddled thinking could be no more than thinking that disagrees with his more pro EU view. You come away with the impression that he knows he is right therefore contrary views are wrong, muddled and unacceptable to his core beliefs.

    Obviously he was never going to be a successful Brexit negotiator, assuming there is a scintilla of truth in the Mail article.
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    stellafrancisstellafrancis Posts: 0
    edited January 2017
    Nice Post. I liked the way of presenting the main idea and points. Described it in a simple way and that helped me to catch it very easily. Top rated essay writing service want to know more about it.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    Better that he go now than once talks have started.
    But it's a helluva job for his replacement.

    Concerning that he suggests ministers don't want to hear what other EU countries are telling him.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    The talks are yet to begin, Sir Ivan Rogers was not an Ambassador, tis better for him to go now than mid negotiations as planned and activating A50 is at least two months away.

    Apart from that…
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    philiph said:

    @MrTimT

    So emotionally invested in the EU that he is unable to accept and adhere to the thought process and implement the arguments required for Brexit during negotiations.

    His view of muddled thinking could be no more than thinking that disagrees with his more pro EU view. You come away with the impression that he knows he is right therefore contrary views are wrong, muddled and unacceptable to his core beliefs.

    Obviously he was never going to be a successful Brexit negotiator, assuming there is a scintilla of truth in the Mail article.

    It's a mail article so there's a very good chance there's no truth to it at all. It's just a hatchet job of anonymous people who didn't like him.

    If Theresa May never wanted him in the first place, if he was such a nightmare to work with, if she expected him to go with Cameron...

    Why on earth didn't she fire or move him and get a replacement? Why end up in a situation where he resigns so soon to talks starting?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    stellafrancis said:

    Nice Post. I liked the way of presenting the main idea and points. Described it in a simple way and that helped me to catch it very easily. Top rated essay writing service want to know more about it.

    What an entrance :D
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    SimonStClare said:

    Morning all.

    The talks are yet to begin, Sir Ivan Rogers was not an Ambassador, tis better for him to go now than mid negotiations as planned and activating A50 is at least two months away.

    Apart from that…

    Imagine the Remoaner Press headlines if he'd gone - as initially planned - in October; Major Blow to British Government as our Man in Brussels Quits After 6 Months of Negotiations
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, we're a little over two months from Mrs May explaining exactly what Brexit means.

    I suspect Sir Ivan's mum has to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is.

    Interesting though that Osborne has come out and praised Rogers?
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    @RobD

    A stellar entrance?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    edited January 2017
    Taking the Sir Ivan Rogers headlines -

    the i: Brexit talks in chaos There are no Brexit talks

    the Guardian: Brexit Row as top EU Envoy stands down When 'isn't' there a 'Brexit row'? - otherwise accurate

    The Times: Envoy quits over Brexit 'muddle' Not what his email says - in fact he says he's quitting to let his successor see through the whole process

    The Telegraph: May to Pick Brexiteer as our Man in Brussels How quickly the ripples have closed over Sir Ivan's head.....

    The Express: New Hope For Faster EU Exit Hope Springs Eternal....either that or Star Wars geek, which seems unlikely...

    The Independent: 'Hounded out by Hostile Brexiteers' In quotes as I suppose as it doesn't remotely reflect what Sir Ivan writes....

    The FT: London's 'frustrated' EU envoy resigns weeks before deadline on Brexit clause Note use of quotation marks over statement Sir Ivan didn't make himself

    I'd say the Guardian easily wins for 'Just the facts, Ma'am'......with a little bit of spin on top...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,889
    Goodness, if the views of leavers in this thread are typical of those who are actually going to have to do the negotiations, then God help us.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    philiph said:

    Sir Ivan Rogers, a man who was probably incapable of leading talks aimed at achieving the opposite of his beliefs.

    After years of EU intergration, cooperation and searching for harmony a 180 degree turn to dismantle years of work seemed incoherent and unattainable to him.

    Not really a shock in any way. Should allow for a more integrated and cohesive negotiation.

    I am sure that he didn't want the poisoned chalice, but it is telling that his deputy went first and also needs replacing. His other remarks do suggest that the government has not used the last six months wisely, has not prepared a position and does not have a team. The 3 Brexiteers are better known as mavericks than organisers of a new consensus. Their understanding of the objectives of the other side is non-existent.

    Our government is shambolically trying to determine what it wants as an outcome, while the EU27 is planning talks on mechanisms of exit.

    It would be popcorn time were we not passengers in the slowmotion car crash.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Spineless Oxford pantywaist flunks off when hard work appears.

    Really why do we employ these people - remove his knighthood and make him work for his pension. He has failed, he didnt prepare for a possible leave vote and he made no impact on the EU in telling them the danger of a leave vote was real and they should accommodate UK concerns.

    Now he's legged it and wants to cover his arse by blaming everyone else. Useless.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,889
    I'm very unsure if this is a wise move:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38502339

    We need to make sure no suspicious Chinese people are hanging around the dinosaur during its tour, just in case they're trying to retrieve the microfilm forty years later. The recipe for Wonton Soup must be retrieved ...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_of_Our_Dinosaurs_Is_Missing
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    Alanbrooke said:

    Spineless Oxford pantywaist flunks off when hard work appears.

    Really why do we employ these people - remove his knighthood and make him work for his pension. He has failed, he didnt prepare for a possible leave vote and he made no impact on the EU in telling them the danger of a leave vote was real and they should accommodate UK concerns.

    Now he's legged it and wants to cover his arse by blaming everyone else. Useless.

    Tim Shipman - who has written a widely praised account of the Brexit negotiation & vote observes: The mandarinate rallies. It IS a big loss of knowledge. But much of his advice was poor

    In business when we got into trouble you kept the team involved (unless they'd caused the mess in the first place - which arguably Rogers contributed to) in place until they'd fixed it, none of this 'looks like a bit hard, can I have a cushier number please, I'm a Knight you know....?'
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    Alanbrooke said:

    Spineless Oxford pantywaist flunks off when hard work appears.

    Really why do we employ these people - remove his knighthood and make him work for his pension. He has failed, he didnt prepare for a possible leave vote and he made no impact on the EU in telling them the danger of a leave vote was real and they should accommodate UK concerns.

    Now he's legged it and wants to cover his arse by blaming everyone else. Useless.

    He was ordered not to prepare for a leave vote by David Cameron. He was instructed on what to negotiate for by David Cameron. Cameron's aims were widely decried as unambitious - and the fault for that rests with Cameron since he made that decision.

    The EU chose not to accommodate leave concerns... Now that we have voted to leave they are still not accommodating those concerns.

    So if Rogers had been clearer that we will leave unless you do xyz... i don't see that it would have made any difference.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Alanbrooke said:

    Spineless Oxford pantywaist flunks off when hard work appears.

    Really why do we employ these people - remove his knighthood and make him work for his pension. He has failed, he didnt prepare for a possible leave vote and he made no impact on the EU in telling them the danger of a leave vote was real and they should accommodate UK concerns.

    Now he's legged it and wants to cover his arse by blaming everyone else. Useless.

    What he said...
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    rkrkrk said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Anyhoo, we're a little over two months from Mrs May explaining exactly what Brexit means.

    I suspect Sir Ivan's mum has to go on Wikipedia to find out who he is.

    Interesting though that Osborne has come out and praised Rogers?
    Is their Clusterfuck Club the new Bullingdon?
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Sean T is stuck over his next novel.

    At least Oxford wouldn't let MarqueeMark or Alanbrooke in...
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Well, this Brexit thing isn't going terribly well at the moment. What worrying is that most of he problems are self inflicted. We've not got close to the hard stuff yet.

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    View_From_CumbriaView_From_Cumbria Posts: 241
    It is a telling fact that the government is in a better place now than it was the day before Sir Ivan resigned. I don't think I would want that on my CV
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rkrkrk said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    Spineless Oxford pantywaist flunks off when hard work appears.

    Really why do we employ these people - remove his knighthood and make him work for his pension. He has failed, he didnt prepare for a possible leave vote and he made no impact on the EU in telling them the danger of a leave vote was real and they should accommodate UK concerns.

    Now he's legged it and wants to cover his arse by blaming everyone else. Useless.


    The EU chose not to accommodate leave concerns... Now that we have voted to leave they are still not accommodating those concerns.
    The EU27 no longer have to listen to those concerns. Brexit means Brexit.

    The whinging pub bore has announced that he is leaving the pub. Why listen any more?

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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,889
    View_From_Cumbria said:

    It is a telling fact that the government is in a better place now than it was the day before Sir Ivan resigned. I don't think I would want that on my CV

    How is that a fact?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    View_From_Cumbria said:

    It is a telling fact that the government is in a better place now than it was the day before Sir Ivan resigned. I don't think I would want that on my CV

    A 'telling fact' must be one of those post-truth facts we keep hearing about. The more I hear about it, the Brexit plan increasingly resembles the emperor's new clothes. There is nothing there.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    It is no surprise that this utterly mediocre government, led by a prime minister whose sole interest is in being prime minister (see also Gordon Brown), has no clue about what it is doing. Obviously, willy-waving Leavers will blame civil servants for this, but at some point elected ministers are going to have to take some responsibility for their abject uselessness. If you put people like Liam Fox, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Angela Leadsom, Priti Patel, Jeremy Hunt etc etc in positions of power do not be surprised when things go wrong.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    rkrkrk said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    Spineless Oxford pantywaist flunks off when hard work appears.

    Really why do we employ these people - remove his knighthood and make him work for his pension. He has failed, he didnt prepare for a possible leave vote and he made no impact on the EU in telling them the danger of a leave vote was real and they should accommodate UK concerns.

    Now he's legged it and wants to cover his arse by blaming everyone else. Useless.

    He was ordered not to prepare for a leave vote by David Cameron. He was instructed on what to negotiate for by David Cameron. Cameron's aims were widely decried as unambitious - and the fault for that rests with Cameron since he made that decision.

    The EU chose not to accommodate leave concerns... Now that we have voted to leave they are still not accommodating those concerns.

    So if Rogers had been clearer that we will leave unless you do xyz... i don't see that it would have made any difference.
    chortle

    the man who tells the CS to speak truth to power singularly failed to do so himself.

    his boss that other spineless Oxford flunker noticeably didnt receive any advice from Ivan of the " youre off your head if you dont have a plan B" variety. Ivy's silence on the matter juxtaposes with his sudden discovery of principles.

    so now theyve both charged off to benefit from highly paid consultancies and and can lecture us all on commitment to the Big Society and making the UK a better place,

    my arse,

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    SouthamObserver said:

    It is no surprise that this utterly mediocre government, led by a prime minister whose sole interest is in being prime minister (see also Gordon Brown), has no clue about what it is doing. Obviously, willy-waving Leavers will blame civil servants for this, but at some point elected ministers are going to have to take some responsibility for their abject uselessness. If you put people like Liam Fox, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Angela Leadsom, Priti Patel, Jeremy Hunt etc etc in positions of power do not be surprised when things go wrong.

    It's not mediocre. Mediocre would be better.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    SeanT said:

    williamglenn said:

    SeanT said:

    Britain is going to be wholly exposed to the winds of global competition, and it will hurt, at first.

    Except it won't. What will happen is that Britain will be wholly exposed to the realities of its economic and geopolitical position in the world, and it will be humiliating. The people who imagine that a great alternative national strategy is there for us are delusional. We won't even get to square one of your Brexit vision.
    There is no Brexit vision. There does not need to be. We will leave and adapt to reality. We are a great trading nation with a magnificent history and a resourceful people

    We will survive. We won't reconquer the world. No one wants to

    Grow the fuck up, you spineless halfwit. Have some self respect.

    Or, put another way: it's great not having to worry about this because my income and lifestyle are totally unaffected by whether we get a good Brexit deal or not.

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Jonathan said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    It is no surprise that this utterly mediocre government, led by a prime minister whose sole interest is in being prime minister (see also Gordon Brown), has no clue about what it is doing. Obviously, willy-waving Leavers will blame civil servants for this, but at some point elected ministers are going to have to take some responsibility for their abject uselessness. If you put people like Liam Fox, Boris Johnson, David Davis, Angela Leadsom, Priti Patel, Jeremy Hunt etc etc in positions of power do not be surprised when things go wrong.

    It's not mediocre. Mediocre would be better.

    I am being charitable. The presence of Hammond means that the cabinet is not fully staffed by morons :-)

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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Jonathan said:

    Well, this Brexit thing isn't going terribly well at the moment. What worrying is that most of he problems are self inflicted. We've not got close to the hard stuff yet.

    The reality is that the politics are a nightmare for a PM who puts her career before all else. She is holding on for something to turn up. It won't. She needs to get cracking. But as soon as she does the weakness of the UK's position becomes exposed.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,351
    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Laughable. And sad.

    When you resort to abuse, you have lost the argument.

    Resort is the wrong word in Sean's case; abuse is just his natural rhetorical mode. Though he is starting to remind me of Clarkson, which suggests he's a bit off form.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,889
    Nigelb said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Laughable. And sad.

    When you resort to abuse, you have lost the argument.

    Resort is the wrong word in Sean's case; abuse is just his natural rhetorical mode. Though he is starting to remind me of Clarkson, which suggests he's a bit off form.
    Like Clarkson, Sean's problem is that he flip-flops. He takes whatever position comes into his head at the time and rants against the opposite. His rants are eloquent and funny, but there is no real belief behind them. They are a strong gust of wind that soon dies down rather than a hurricane.

    That's why Tim's barbs were better: he lacked Sean's literary verve, but he was at least internally consistent. He believed what he was writing.

    Then again, what else can be expected from a Devonian cream-tea boy? ;)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    Newsnight was quite good last night, except that it would have saved time had Evan Davis just tattooed "I hate Donald Trump on the back of his head" to avoid putting his own views across.

    Also the "Will the euro survive the year, or next few?" question would've been better phrased as a decade or two.

    Kudos to the BBC for managing to find a Corbyn supporter.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    Considering that for a couple of decades Britain's negotiating at the EU has been an even bigger failure than the England football team's performances at the European Championships I'd say it was long overdue that there was a clear out of these 'experienced diplomats'.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Prior to yesterdays news, the time we last heard of sir Ivan was Dec 15th.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/15/post-brexit-trade-deal-could-take-10-years-still-fail-warns/

    It sounds like the Brown/May forces of hell were unleashed on him at that point, making his position untenable. I don't think May is very forgiving for being left looking like Theresa No-mates at the Dec EU leaders meeting.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GMBClodagh: Fighting talk. @johnredwood told @piersmorgan and @susannareid100 Sir Ivan Rogers "could not negotiate his way out of a paper bag" @GMB

    I would be curious to know what sort of severance package Sir Ivan negotiated before making such a claim. But it is Redwood...
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited January 2017
    The doom gloom and despondency of some on here is quite unbelievable. We may be in for tougher times, we may have made the wrong choice, but the world isn't about to end and we aren't headed for the middle ages. It may even be a decent future.

    Having that all pervading depressive fear of Brexit must make life miserable. Far better to accept where we are and work to make it acceptable.

    Maybe one reason a plan wasn't forming could have been an unreconcilable difference between our ex EU negotiator and the political masters. Maybe both were intransigent so one had to go. It may allow for a more detailed and cohesive plan. It may not be bad news, certainly no need for despair or angst.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The chief damage being caused by Brexit is social. As the Leavers get steadily madder and more paranoid in response to developing problems, the social damage gets worse. No surprise that the public believes Britain to be unhappier, more divided and more racist than a year ago.

    Instead of wasting time sniffing out and then flaying Remainers for lacking conviction in Brexit, their priority should be a Brexit plan. But not only is there no plan, the government gives no indication of having any ability to draw up and implement a workable plan.
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    Innocent_AbroadInnocent_Abroad Posts: 3,294
    Sean T is forgetting that all his examples of "British" resourcefulness are (a) English and (b) relate to the time before the working-class organised itself into the Labour movement. This is so unlike him that I fear for his health...
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    another_richard said:

    Considering that for a couple of decades Britain's negotiating at the EU has been an even bigger failure than the England football team's performances at the European Championships I'd say it was long overdue that there was a clear out of these 'experienced diplomats'.

    Purge the wreckers, cosmopolitans and counter revolutionary kulaks. We must show no mercy in defending the workers revolution. All power to the Brexit Soviets!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Innocent_Abroad said:

    Sean T is forgetting that all his examples of "British" resourcefulness are (a) English and (b) relate to the time before the working-class organised itself into the Labour movement. This is so unlike him that I fear for his health...

    They also relate to a time when Britain had an abundance of natural resources to fuel its industrial boom.

    Now, not so much...
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    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    The bleating of the Liberal Elite. Sod Ivan! Good riddance.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    I've never been a fan of May but to read the wailing on here you'd think Britain was led by political titans before instead of the pair of liars and incompetents who wrote this:

    ' Today, we are setting out our assessment of what would happen in the weeks and months after a vote to Leave on June 23.

    It is clear that there would be an immediate and profound shock to our economy.

    The analysis produced by the Treasury today shows that a vote to leave will push our economy into a recession that would knock 3.6 per cent off GDP and, over two years, put hundreds of thousands of people out of work right across the country, compared to the forecast for continued growth if we vote to remain in the EU.

    In a more severe shock scenario, Treasury economists estimate that our economy could be hit by 6 per cent, there would be a deeper recession and unemployment would rise by even more. '

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/david-cameron-and-george-osborne-brexit-would-put-our-economy-in/

    It might also be remembered that whoever May has in her government she at least got shot of Olly Letwin and Nicky Morgan.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @peterwalker99: Jonathan Powell openly laughing at Iain Duncan Smith's description of the Brexit plan on Today. It's not a debate getting any more polite
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Dixie, I was amused to see "The BBC has acquired the resignation letter..."

    How very fortuitous for them.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,306
    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    viewcode said:

    SeanT said:

    Remainers remind me of Adult Babies. It's a sexual kink. They would rather remain in the nappies of EU membership than do the toilet training of independence.

    Laughable. And sad.

    When you resort to abuse, you have lost the argument.


    Are you new here?
    It's late. I had a sudden attack of logic.
    First time for everything.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    @Southam Observer. I note your abuse of Mrs May continues unabated. You have no unchallengeable evidence whatsoever for your claim that she puts her career above all else. Frankly I thought you were better than that, but since your party has sunk into the mire, abuse seems your only weapon.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,889
    Remember the one rule about Brexit: everything is awesome.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cQgQIMlwWw
This discussion has been closed.