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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Macron at 6/1 looks the value bet for next French president

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Macron at 6/1 looks the value bet for next French president

By far the biggest political betting market at the moment is on the French presidential election the first round of which takes place in April. On the Betfair exchange alone £2m has been matched which suggests that this will be a huge market when we get to polling day.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    First...
  • Options
    I'm spending five days in Paris this month, I shall be PB's man on the spot.
  • Options
    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Mike Smithson endorsing the libdems man in France... Quelle Surprise.

    You don't get more centrist than Macron, and France needs shock Thatcherite treatment. If Fillon fumbles it I don't think France will ever be fixed.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
    Erhhh not my lecturer. Colleague.

    Again AlphaGo isn't "AI"...
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817

    I'm spending five days in Paris this month, I shall be PB's man on the spot.

    We'll always have Paris...
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    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    The much vaunted snowmageddon came and went.

    Monday it was 65F, last night it got down to 13F and next weekend will be 70F.

    2 days of sun, even though the temp never got above freezing, means the small snowfall is gone.

    No wonder we all get sniffles all winter.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    GIN1138 said:

    I'm spending five days in Paris this month, I shall be PB's man on the spot.

    We'll always have Paris...
    Paris is cold at this time of year...

    http://www.downtownparis.ca/
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
    Erhhh not my lecturer. Colleague.

    Again AlphaGo isn't "AI"...
    The person giving an academic talk is generally referred to in that context as a lecturer, "lecture" being another word for "academic talk". I note he is still anonymous. I know AlphaGo isn't AI; I also know that no one knows what AI is, because if we did we'd know how to make it.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited January 2017
    Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) has announced a $1bn (£816m) investment to produce three Jeep models in the US.

    Under the plan it will also move the production of a Ram pickup truck from Mexico to the US.
    The location of car production has become a sensitive issue, as President-elect Donald Trump is critical of firms that have moved production to Mexico and has threatened to impose tariffs.

    However, BMW has told the BBC it would go ahead with a new plant in Mexico.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38550492
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Pauly said:

    Mike Smithson endorsing the libdems man in France... Quelle Surprise.

    You don't get more centrist than Macron, and France needs shock Thatcherite treatment. If Fillon fumbles it I don't think France will ever be fixed.

    Clearly you don't understand the ethos of the site. I'm making a assessment of betting value not an endorsement.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
    Erhhh not my lecturer. Colleague.

    Again AlphaGo isn't "AI"...
    The person giving an academic talk is generally referred to in that context as a lecturer, "lecture" being another word for "academic talk". I note he is still anonymous. I know AlphaGo isn't AI; I also know that no one knows what AI is, because if we did we'd know how to make it.
    I don't think that that is a good working definition of knowledge. We know what a brain is but we certainly don't know how to make a functional brain.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    I always take a quick look at the BBC news website before going to bed, and tonight they have a report about the ending of a siege in a Jarrow bookmakers.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38550889

    Good night, everyone.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited January 2017
    Tim_B said:

    The much vaunted snowmageddon came and went.

    Monday it was 65F, last night it got down to 13F and next weekend will be 70F.

    2 days of sun, even though the temp never got above freezing, means the small snowfall is gone.

    No wonder we all get sniffles all winter.


    When I took the doggies out this morning it was 17F, but with about 40mph winds gusting higher (I was knocked back mid stride). Felt brass monkeys.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    MTimT said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
    Erhhh not my lecturer. Colleague.

    Again AlphaGo isn't "AI"...
    The person giving an academic talk is generally referred to in that context as a lecturer, "lecture" being another word for "academic talk". I note he is still anonymous. I know AlphaGo isn't AI; I also know that no one knows what AI is, because if we did we'd know how to make it.
    I don't think that that is a good working definition of knowledge. We know what a brain is but we certainly don't know how to make a functional brain.
    Hmm. We know what a brain is in the sense that it's the grey spongy stuff in your head. Until we can explain consciousness we don't (arguably) know the essence of what it is.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    edited January 2017
    I loved Macron at 20-24 (which I broadcast loud and clear on this board).

    But at 6s?

    That's a really hard call. He has to pass Le Pen or Fillon and make it to the last two.

    How might that happen? There are three scenarios of varying probability.

    Now, almost all of these are predicated on Bayrou stepping down, which is probably a 50-60% probability, but by no means a certainty.

    1. Fillon blows up
    Quite possible, of course. But some terrible secret might come out about Fillon: perhaps he was involved in one of DSK's parties, or worse. Likely? Not really, but possible, I guess. (5% chance).

    2. Le Pen blows up
    Much less likely than Fillon blowing up. If 'pussy grabbing' didn't, dent Trump, I can't see what would affect Le Pen. (1% chance).

    3. The Left and Centre Left votes tactically for Macron
    Now, this is the possible one. There are a lot of Left Wing candidates. Faced with the possibility of Fillon vs Le Pen, might a few of them choose to put their First Round 'x' next to Macron? I suspect it's possible (although, of course, by no means certain). And it might be Valls that benefits from tactical voting. Still: I reckon there's a 20% chance that enough Green, Left Front, and Socialist voters decide to make Macron their call, pushing him past Le Pen.

    One sixth chance?

    That seems like a tough one, especially given Macron can't be better than 50/50 (and probably worse) against Fillon.

    I'd make him an 8-12% chance.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    edited January 2017
    Pauly said:

    Mike Smithson endorsing the libdems man in France... Quelle Surprise.

    You don't get more centrist than Macron, and France needs shock Thatcherite treatment. If Fillon fumbles it I don't think France will ever be fixed.

    I think Macron is much more New Labour than LibDem. Bayrou is the LibDem in this race.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Pauly said:

    Mike Smithson endorsing the libdems man in France... Quelle Surprise.

    You don't get more centrist than Macron, and France needs shock Thatcherite treatment. If Fillon fumbles it I don't think France will ever be fixed.

    Whats that got to do with the price of fish ?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    I loved Macron at 20-24 (which I broadcast loud and clear on this board).

    But at 6s?

    That's a really hard call. He has to pass Le Pen or Fillon and make it to the last two.

    How might that happen? There are three scenarios of varying probability.

    Now, almost all of these are predicated on Bayrou stepping down, which is probably a 50-60% probability, but by no means a certainty.

    1. Fillon blows up
    Quite possible, of course. But some terrible secret might come out about Fillon: perhaps he was involved in one of DSK's parties, or worse. Likely? Not really, but possible, I guess. (5% chance).

    2. Le Pen blows up
    Much less likely than Fillon blowing up. If 'pussy grabbing' didn't, dent Trump, I can't see what would affect Le Pen. (1% chance).

    3. The Left and Centre Left votes tactically for Macron
    Now, this is the possible one. There are a lot of Left Wing candidates. Faced with the possibility of Fillon vs Le Pen, might a few of them choose to put their First Round 'x' next to Macron? I suspect it's possible (although, of course, by no means certain). And it might be Valls that benefits from tactical voting. Still: I reckon there's a 20% chance that enough Green, Left Front, and Socialist voters decide to make Macron their call, pushing him past Le Pen.

    One sixth chance?

    That seems like a tough one, especially given Macron can't be better than 50/50 (and probably worse) against Fillon.

    I'd make him an 8-12% chance.

    6/1 with Shadsy on a Fillon/Macron second round is surely better value.

    just checked. Is now 5/1.
  • Options
    Ishmael_Z said:

    MTimT said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
    Erhhh not my lecturer. Colleague.

    Again AlphaGo isn't "AI"...
    The person giving an academic talk is generally referred to in that context as a lecturer, "lecture" being another word for "academic talk". I note he is still anonymous. I know AlphaGo isn't AI; I also know that no one knows what AI is, because if we did we'd know how to make it.
    I don't think that that is a good working definition of knowledge. We know what a brain is but we certainly don't know how to make a functional brain.
    Hmm. We know what a brain is in the sense that it's the grey spongy stuff in your head. Until we can explain consciousness we don't (arguably) know the essence of what it is.
    “If our brains were simple enough for us to understand them, we'd be so simple that we couldn't.” - Ian Stewart


  • Options
    Macron has not got the opposition he wanted.

    Valls, if he gets the nod, will hold enough of the left - and Fillon enough of the centre-right, to depress Macron's score in the first round IMO.

    There is a behavioural issue in the first round for French socialists, which does give a certain unpredictability.However I have spoken to a few (data is not the plural of anecdote, etc.) and they still see this as Fillon v Le Pen. And they are in no doubt about that.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    I loved Macron at 20-24 (which I broadcast loud and clear on this board).

    But at 6s?

    That's a really hard call. He has to pass Le Pen or Fillon and make it to the last two.

    How might that happen? There are three scenarios of varying probability.

    Now, almost all of these are predicated on Bayrou stepping down, which is probably a 50-60% probability, but by no means a certainty.

    1. Fillon blows up
    Quite possible, of course. But some terrible secret might come out about Fillon: perhaps he was involved in one of DSK's parties, or worse. Likely? Not really, but possible, I guess. (5% chance).

    2. Le Pen blows up
    Much less likely than Fillon blowing up. If 'pussy grabbing' didn't, dent Trump, I can't see what would affect Le Pen. (1% chance).

    3. The Left and Centre Left votes tactically for Macron
    Now, this is the possible one. There are a lot of Left Wing candidates. Faced with the possibility of Fillon vs Le Pen, might a few of them choose to put their First Round 'x' next to Macron? I suspect it's possible (although, of course, by no means certain). And it might be Valls that benefits from tactical voting. Still: I reckon there's a 20% chance that enough Green, Left Front, and Socialist voters decide to make Macron their call, pushing him past Le Pen.

    One sixth chance?

    That seems like a tough one, especially given Macron can't be better than 50/50 (and probably worse) against Fillon.

    I'd make him an 8-12% chance.

    6/1 with Shadsy on a Fillon/Macron second round is surely better value.

    just checked. Is now 5/1.
    I think that's far worse value. Macron isn't an overwhelming favourite to defeat Fillon in the second round by any means. I would consider laying at 5/1. (The Betfair market is too sparse)
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    edited January 2017
    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    I loved Macron at 20-24 (which I broadcast loud and clear on this board).

    But at 6s?

    That's a really hard call. He has to pass Le Pen or Fillon and make it to the last two.

    How might that happen? There are three scenarios of varying probability.

    Now, almost all of these are predicated on Bayrou stepping down, which is probably a 50-60% probability, but by no means a certainty.

    1. Fillon blows up
    Quite possible, of course. But some terrible secret might come out about Fillon: perhaps he was involved in one of DSK's parties, or worse. Likely? Not really, but possible, I guess. (5% chance).

    2. Le Pen blows up
    Much less likely than Fillon blowing up. If 'pussy grabbing' didn't, dent Trump, I can't see what would affect Le Pen. (1% chance).

    3. The Left and Centre Left votes tactically for Macron
    Now, this is the possible one. There are a lot of Left Wing candidates. Faced with the possibility of Fillon vs Le Pen, might a few of them choose to put their First Round 'x' next to Macron? I suspect it's possible (although, of course, by no means certain). And it might be Valls that benefits from tactical voting. Still: I reckon there's a 20% chance that enough Green, Left Front, and Socialist voters decide to make Macron their call, pushing him past Le Pen.

    One sixth chance?

    That seems like a tough one, especially given Macron can't be better than 50/50 (and probably worse) against Fillon.

    I'd make him an 8-12% chance.


    I think it's a combination of (1) and (3) - Fillon looks beatable, the left take him on.

    BUT there is little evidence of this sort of first round tactical voting at regional or national level in France.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited January 2017
    I'm Fillon +320, Le Pen -840 and Macron -10 which I think gives my book a value of something like negative £50.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    I'm Fillon +330, Le Pen -800 and Macron -100 which I think gives my book a value of something like negative £50.

    What are you on anyone else, I've got you valued at -£4 here.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.

    You mean some people on PB just see the thread writer's name and talk nonsense.

    Absolutely astonished by that revelation.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    MTimT said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
    Erhhh not my lecturer. Colleague.

    Again AlphaGo isn't "AI"...
    The person giving an academic talk is generally referred to in that context as a lecturer, "lecture" being another word for "academic talk". I note he is still anonymous. I know AlphaGo isn't AI; I also know that no one knows what AI is, because if we did we'd know how to make it.
    I don't think that that is a good working definition of knowledge. We know what a brain is but we certainly don't know how to make a functional brain.
    I remember an MP saying many years ago that an integrated transport policy was like pornography - difficult to describe but he'd know it if he saw it.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    edited January 2017
    @Pulpstar

    I'm -600 the field give or take.

    I've tweaked the numbers as the others were off the top of my head.
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.

    You mean some people on PB just see the thread writer's name and talk nonsense.

    Absolutely astonished by that revelation.
    Macron is he big gainer from the system, Le Pen is the loser.

    She is 4.5 and I woudn't bet on her at those odds even if she were guaranteed a place in the second round.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    edited January 2017

    Macron has not got the opposition he wanted.

    Valls, if he gets the nod, will hold enough of the left - and Fillon enough of the centre-right, to depress Macron's score in the first round IMO.

    There is a behavioural issue in the first round for French socialists, which does give a certain unpredictability.However I have spoken to a few (data is not the plural of anecdote, etc.) and they still see this as Fillon v Le Pen. And they are in no doubt about that.

    I spend a lot of time in France, albeit with the kind of people who live in big cities and are part of the 'elite' in one way or another.

    They split into four groups: those that are sick to the teeth of politicians generally; those who think France needs a Mrs Thatcher; those who think France needs a Tony Blair; and those who are just scared of Marine Le Pen.

    The first and second groups are the largest. The fourth group might well vote for Macron to 'stop Le Pen'.

    My 8-12% chance for Macron sounds right. He can do it. He might do it.

    But Fillon is far and away the favourite here, and Le Pan is far, far too short.
  • Options

    Pulpstar said:

    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.

    You mean some people on PB just see the thread writer's name and talk nonsense.

    Absolutely astonished by that revelation.
    Macron is he big gainer from the system, Le Pen is the loser.

    She is 4.5 and I woudn't bet on her at those odds even if she were guaranteed a place in the second round.
    I've been laying Le Pen for a while, but all I can think of is the Spanish election of 2004.

    I hope we don't have a repeat.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    Pulpstar said:

    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.

    You mean some people on PB just see the thread writer's name and talk nonsense.

    Absolutely astonished by that revelation.
    Macron is he big gainer from the system, Le Pen is the loser.

    She is 4.5 and I woudn't bet on her at those odds even if she were guaranteed a place in the second round.
    Agreed. She trails Fillon between 65:35 and 72:28. And she isn't even guaranteed to make the second round. If Macron is a 10% probability, Le Pen can't be more than 15%, and is more likely sub 10%.

    In a US state election where the polls were 65:35 in favour of one candidate. And the 35% candidate had a history of underperforming her poll scores, would anyone here bet at 4 or 5 to 1? No, because it would be incredibly stupid.
  • Options
    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017

    rcs1000 said:

    I loved Macron at 20-24 (which I broadcast loud and clear on this board).

    But at 6s?

    That's a really hard call. He has to pass Le Pen or Fillon and make it to the last two.

    How might that happen? There are three scenarios of varying probability.

    Now, almost all of these are predicated on Bayrou stepping down, which is probably a 50-60% probability, but by no means a certainty.

    1. Fillon blows up
    Quite possible, of course. But some terrible secret might come out about Fillon: perhaps he was involved in one of DSK's parties, or worse. Likely? Not really, but possible, I guess. (5% chance).

    2. Le Pen blows up
    Much less likely than Fillon blowing up. If 'pussy grabbing' didn't, dent Trump, I can't see what would affect Le Pen. (1% chance).

    3. The Left and Centre Left votes tactically for Macron
    Now, this is the possible one. There are a lot of Left Wing candidates. Faced with the possibility of Fillon vs Le Pen, might a few of them choose to put their First Round 'x' next to Macron? I suspect it's possible (although, of course, by no means certain). And it might be Valls that benefits from tactical voting. Still: I reckon there's a 20% chance that enough Green, Left Front, and Socialist voters decide to make Macron their call, pushing him past Le Pen.

    One sixth chance?

    That seems like a tough one, especially given Macron can't be better than 50/50 (and probably worse) against Fillon.

    I'd make him an 8-12% chance.

    6/1 with Shadsy on a Fillon/Macron second round is surely better value.

    just checked. Is now 5/1.
    I think that's far worse value. Macron isn't an overwhelming favourite to defeat Fillon in the second round by any means. I would consider laying at 5/1. (The Betfair market is too sparse)
    Perhaps we are at cross purposes. For my bet to pay off Macron can come either 1st or second. In effect it is an eachway.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Mrs May is working on the assumption that there will be a Free Trade Agreement at least for physical goods, which - while not a certainty - is a very high probability. If not, presumably she has guaranteed grants that will make up for any losses associated with Brexit.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Let's give £350m a week to Nissan...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,999

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    She said she was aiming for the best possible trade deal which remains the case, she has never said she was committed to full single market membership which is incompatible with border control
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Mrs May is working on the assumption that there will be a Free Trade Agreement at least for physical goods, which - while not a certainty - is a very high probability. If not, presumably she has guaranteed grants that will make up for any losses associated with Brexit.
    Cheers
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,999
    edited January 2017
    Personally I think Le Pen will win round 1 but Fillon round 2, if Valls is confirmed as PS candidate he will split the centrist vote with Macron, though Macron should take third. This is an election too early for Macron, 2022 may be more his time, France is not going to elect a leftist this year, even a Blairite one like him (though ironically Le Pen would prefer to face him in a run-off than Fillon as she would then have the right all to herself)
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    HYUFD said:

    Personally I think Le Pen will win round 1 but Fillon round 2, if Valls is confirmed as PS candidate he will split the centrist vote with Macron, though Macron should take third. This is an election too early for Macron, 2022 may be more his time, France is not going to elect a leftist this year, even a Blairite one like him (though ironically Le Pen would prefer to face him in a run-off than Fillon as she would then have the right all to herself)

    I think that is a likely scenario, although I'd give the edge to Fillon in the first round. Perhaps the two of them close to 26% each, with Macron likely on about 19% (assuming Bayrou drops out).
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    rcs1000 said:

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Mrs May is working on the assumption that there will be a Free Trade Agreement at least for physical goods, which - while not a certainty - is a very high probability. If not, presumably she has guaranteed grants that will make up for any losses associated with Brexit.
    How's the 'sane Leaver' rcs1000 barometer doing? Would you still vote for Brexit if you had the chance to go back to June?
  • Options
    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38550889

    Is it TSE, having come to his senses, trying to get his money back!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Mrs May is working on the assumption that there will be a Free Trade Agreement at least for physical goods, which - while not a certainty - is a very high probability. If not, presumably she has guaranteed grants that will make up for any losses associated with Brexit.
    A tarrif free trade is not the same as a customs union, it is the non-tarrif stuff that will be the restriction.

    May sounded like a Hard Brexiteer today.

    Tis peculier how so many eurosceptics have spent the last 25 asking for opt outs and now want opt ins.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,999
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Personally I think Le Pen will win round 1 but Fillon round 2, if Valls is confirmed as PS candidate he will split the centrist vote with Macron, though Macron should take third. This is an election too early for Macron, 2022 may be more his time, France is not going to elect a leftist this year, even a Blairite one like him (though ironically Le Pen would prefer to face him in a run-off than Fillon as she would then have the right all to herself)

    I think that is a likely scenario, although I'd give the edge to Fillon in the first round. Perhaps the two of them close to 26% each, with Macron likely on about 19% (assuming Bayrou drops out).
    Would not disagree much with that but Fillon has dropped back a bit from his bounce after he won the primary and I think Le Pen will squeeze some of his vote in round 1 to edge in front but we will see
  • Options
    Chris_A said:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-38550889

    Is it TSE, having come to his senses, trying to get his money back!

    Yeah, that was me arguing that my bets on Diane Abbott for next Labour leader were a palpable error on my part.
  • Options
    Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    rcs1000 said:

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Mrs May is working on the assumption that there will be a Free Trade Agreement at least for physical goods, which - while not a certainty - is a very high probability. If not, presumably she has guaranteed grants that will make up for any losses associated with Brexit.
    Guaranteed grants or bribes? Any how many other industries will require bribing? This will make the EU budget seem wildly transparent and open.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    I very rarely read the thread headers, as I'm more interested in the discussion below, but what happened to nighthawks? That seemed like an easy way to move the discussion on without having to think too much
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) has announced a $1bn (£816m) investment to produce three Jeep models in the US.

    Under the plan it will also move the production of a Ram pickup truck from Mexico to the US.
    The location of car production has become a sensitive issue, as President-elect Donald Trump is critical of firms that have moved production to Mexico and has threatened to impose tariffs.

    However, BMW has told the BBC it would go ahead with a new plant in Mexico.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38550492

    While I don't mean to piss on Trump's parade, the truth is that the US is one of only two G7 nations to increase car production in the 23 years since NAFTA came into force.

    The issue is that Fort Dearborn used to employ 110,000 people, mostly skilled blue collar workers. Now it employs 4,000, and by the end of the decade it'll be more like 2,000.
  • Options
    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    HYUFD said:

    Personally I think Le Pen will win round 1 but Fillon round 2, if ... (etc.)...

    If Le Pen wins round 1, then Fillon will not win round 2 because there will not be a round 2. There is only a round 2 if nobody wins round 1.

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,999
    JohnLoony said:

    HYUFD said:

    Personally I think Le Pen will win round 1 but Fillon round 2, if ... (etc.)...

    If Le Pen wins round 1, then Fillon will not win round 2 because there will not be a round 2. There is only a round 2 if nobody wins round 1.

    You can still presumably win round 1 but with less than 50% of the vote thus forcing a round 2, if France had FPTP Le Pen would have a serious chance but as it is a two ballot system she has very little chance of winning overall
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    It's fairly probable that the most influential EU nations will want trade in motor vehicles to be tariff free, and Canada already provides a baseline for what the EU will agree to without free movement.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) has announced a $1bn (£816m) investment to produce three Jeep models in the US.

    Under the plan it will also move the production of a Ram pickup truck from Mexico to the US.
    The location of car production has become a sensitive issue, as President-elect Donald Trump is critical of firms that have moved production to Mexico and has threatened to impose tariffs.

    However, BMW has told the BBC it would go ahead with a new plant in Mexico.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38550492

    While I don't mean to piss on Trump's parade, the truth is that the US is one of only two G7 nations to increase car production in the 23 years since NAFTA came into force.

    The issue is that Fort Dearborn used to employ 110,000 people, mostly skilled blue collar workers. Now it employs 4,000, and by the end of the decade it'll be more like 2,000.
    Build a wall around the robot factory. Simples.

  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,761
    isam said:

    I very rarely read the thread headers, as I'm more interested in the discussion below, but what happened to nighthawks? That seemed like an easy way to move the discussion on without having to think too much

    At last, we agree on something... :)
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,761
    Mike, you've called the candidate "Marie LePen" in the header. Er...isn't it "Marine" with a "N"?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    chestnut said:

    It's fairly probable that the most influential EU nations will want trade in motor vehicles to be tariff free, and Canada already provides a baseline for what the EU will agree to without free movement.

    I would expect no tarrifs on manufactured goods, and possibly agricultural products.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    edited January 2017
    chestnut said:

    It's fairly probable that the most influential EU nations will want trade in motor vehicles to be tariff free, and Canada already provides a baseline for what the EU will agree to without free movement.

    It's fairly probable they will want many things, but this one issue is unlikely to subvert the entire negotiation on their side.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,060
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/phil-hogan-urges-ireland-to-keep-distance-from-uk-on-brexit-1.2929333

    Irish EU Commissioner urges Ireland to keep its political distance from the UK.

    Once the prime minister, Theresa May, triggered article 50, “a process would commence that will move the centre of power and influence on Brexit away from London and firmly plant it in Brussels,”
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    isam said:

    I very rarely read the thread headers, as I'm more interested in the discussion below, but what happened to nighthawks? That seemed like an easy way to move the discussion on without having to think too much

    The threads are better with headers, they have more thinking.
  • Options
    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited January 2017
    isam said:

    I very rarely read the thread headers, as I'm more interested in the discussion below, but what happened to nighthawks? That seemed like an easy way to move the discussion on without having to think too much

    Nighthawks from TSE was an excellent concept, but it must have taken a tremendous effort on his part to come up with 20 or more different topics for possible discussion every night.
    I can well understand why he felt unable to continue with this ..... I'm just grateful that he made the effort for so long during what was probably PB.com's finest and most successful period to date.
    Compare and contrast, say, with yesterday's somewhat ludicrous thread in my view, setting forth the possibility, if it can be described as such, of Ms. Diane Abbott becoming the next leader of the Labour Party.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market

    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them

    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Surely it matters if Nissan are bothered. Your struggles not relevant.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Ishmael_Z said:

    MTimT said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    fpt

    I see SeanT doesn't understand the difference between the progress made in Machine Learning via Deep Learning (which is actually based on work that is 20+ years old, but we now have the computation ability to go beyond toys games) and proper Artificial Intelligence.

    I was at an academic talk before Christmas given by one of the world leading machine learning experts and he said despite great progress being made in Deep Learning via Neural Networks, it isn't THE solution and still miles off. DL via NN provide a good framework to certain types of pattern recognition but have fundamental flaws (which are above the level of this site).

    Could you reword that to make it slightly more pompous and patronising, do you think? Did your (puzzlingly anonymous) lecturer predict with any accuracy AlphaGo, or Watson winning Jeopardy, before those things actually happened?
    Erhhh not my lecturer. Colleague.

    Again AlphaGo isn't "AI"...
    The person giving an academic talk is generally referred to in that context as a lecturer, "lecture" being another word for "academic talk". I note he is still anonymous. I know AlphaGo isn't AI; I also know that no one knows what AI is, because if we did we'd know how to make it.
    I don't think that that is a good working definition of knowledge. We know what a brain is but we certainly don't know how to make a functional brain.
    Hmm. We know what a brain is in the sense that it's the grey spongy stuff in your head. Until we can explain consciousness we don't (arguably) know the essence of what it is.
    Consciousness is an emergent property of the brain. Just like taste is. It is not a component in its own right. It is not something that can ever be explained by a reductionist approach to science or knowledge.
  • Options
    Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185

    Off topic,

    1) Mrs May has confirmed we're leaving the single market
    2) Mrs May gave Nissan assurances that Brexit wouldn't impact them
    Am I the only one struggling to reconcile those two positions?

    Isn't May saying "Brexit means Brexit" means so-so-soft exit that Nissan won't be impacted by it?

  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    Hopefully all the public posturing from in advance of the talks is just that, and once they actually sit down they will all be adults about it.

    Hopefully.
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    Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185
    Sandpit said:

    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"
    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    Hopefully all the public posturing from in advance of the talks is just that, and once they actually sit down they will all be adults about it. Hopefully.
    No it's not diktat, it's realpolitik. You threaten the existence of the EU and expect them to negotiate in good faith? There is zero chance of that. We will be offered a "Norwegian" solution, nothing more or less. May knows that and will "capitulate/agree" (delete whichever suits you) after a few months of talks.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    Sandpit said:

    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    Hopefully all the public posturing from in advance of the talks is just that, and once they actually sit down they will all be adults about it.

    Hopefully.
    It's a tricky one. In Indyref despite the rhetoric we knew (!) that if it had come down to it there would have been a sensible negotiation and outcome.

    With the EU27 there are a lot more balls in the air, but one can only hope people will be grown up about it.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    I think free trade in goods is likely.

    On services it's of course far trickier. NTBs form a far greater element than in goods and we might find ourselves outside the bodies that determine what those NTBs will be.

    The black swan is a cave by the EU27 on free movement.

    If by ceding that (calling it something suitably fudge-y) then we will get a least bad Brexit because I think May knows free movement has to be the headline. Few will then go on to read the detail.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited January 2017
    Pauly said:

    Mike Smithson endorsing the libdems man in France... Quelle Surprise.

    You don't get more centrist than Macron, and France needs shock Thatcherite treatment. If Fillon fumbles it I don't think France will ever be fixed.

    Where does that leave May's Great Britain then?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/france-britain-uk-world-s-fifth-largest-economy-brexit-eu-referendum-a7123761.html


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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,996
    rcs1000 said:

    Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) has announced a $1bn (£816m) investment to produce three Jeep models in the US.

    Under the plan it will also move the production of a Ram pickup truck from Mexico to the US.
    The location of car production has become a sensitive issue, as President-elect Donald Trump is critical of firms that have moved production to Mexico and has threatened to impose tariffs.

    However, BMW has told the BBC it would go ahead with a new plant in Mexico.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38550492

    While I don't mean to piss on Trump's parade, the truth is that the US is one of only two G7 nations to increase car production in the 23 years since NAFTA came into force.

    The issue is that Fort Dearborn used to employ 110,000 people, mostly skilled blue collar workers. Now it employs 4,000, and by the end of the decade it'll be more like 2,000.
    The trend isn't all one way: in some car factories people are replacing robots:
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/feb/26/mercedes-benz-robots-people-assembly-lines

    The reasoning of Merc and Toyota shows the problems inherent in the current generation of robots, and why the doom and gloom might be overplayed.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Expect more of this when it becomes legal. No reason to feel sorry for second home owners but yet another example of how things can be made difficult following an acrimonious divorce

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11468615/French-tax-on-Britons-second-homes-illegal.html
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,997
    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    What would be the motivation for the EU to do anything other than thoroughly beast the UK? The survival of The Project is far more important than selling a few VW Tiguans. They've got to make Brexit an ordeal of fire, blood and pus to dissaude anyone else from forming any more closed form compound lexemes based on the names of their countries and verbs of motion.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    Dura_Ace said:

    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    What would be the motivation for the EU to do anything other than thoroughly beast the UK? The survival of The Project is far more important than selling a few VW Tiguans. They've got to make Brexit an ordeal of fire, blood and pus to dissaude anyone else from forming any more closed form compound lexemes based on the names of their countries and verbs of motion.
    Maybe maybe not. Look at it as though the EU were an employer. If an employee leaves sure there is stuff they can do to make things difficult.

    But the other side of that coin is they don't want to be so vexatious such that no one wants to join the company in the first place.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    Pauly said:

    Mike Smithson endorsing the libdems man in France... Quelle Surprise.

    You don't get more centrist than Macron, and France needs shock Thatcherite treatment. If Fillon fumbles it I don't think France will ever be fixed.

    Clearly you don't understand the ethos of the site. I'm making a assessment of betting value not an endorsement.
    I merely jest Mike, love you really. It's my running gag, without all the AV nonsense or resignation threats from Lord Falconer.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,996
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    What would be the motivation for the EU to do anything other than thoroughly beast the UK? The survival of The Project is far more important than selling a few VW Tiguans. They've got to make Brexit an ordeal of fire, blood and pus to dissaude anyone else from forming any more closed form compound lexemes based on the names of their countries and verbs of motion.
    Maybe maybe not. Look at it as though the EU were an employer. If an employee leaves sure there is stuff they can do to make things difficult.

    But the other side of that coin is they don't want to be so vexatious such that no one wants to join the company in the first place.
    That's a really poor analogy IMO.

    Besides, the EU will be far more concerned about countries leaving than joining, especially if they are the large countries.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,668

    Pulpstar said:

    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.

    You mean some people on PB just see the thread writer's name and talk nonsense.

    Absolutely astonished by that revelation.
    Macron is he big gainer from the system, Le Pen is the loser.

    She is 4.5 and I woudn't bet on her at those odds even if she were guaranteed a place in the second round.
    I've been laying Le Pen for a while.
    Now that would be quite a story.......
  • Options
    TOPPING said:

    It's a tricky one. In Indyref despite the rhetoric we knew (!) that if it had come down to it there would have been a sensible negotiation and outcome.

    'We' were bloody reluctant to admit at the time!
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    What would be the motivation for the EU to do anything other than thoroughly beast the UK? The survival of The Project is far more important than selling a few VW Tiguans. They've got to make Brexit an ordeal of fire, blood and pus to dissaude anyone else from forming any more closed form compound lexemes based on the names of their countries and verbs of motion.
    Maybe maybe not. Look at it as though the EU were an employer. If an employee leaves sure there is stuff they can do to make things difficult.

    But the other side of that coin is they don't want to be so vexatious such that no one wants to join the company in the first place.
    That's a really poor analogy IMO.

    Besides, the EU will be far more concerned about countries leaving than joining, especially if they are the large countries.
    You don't get to judge analogies on here, that's @kle4.

    The EU is after all nothing if not an ideal. It is right, everyone else is wrong. If we choose to leave more fool us. It ill behoves such a starry organisation to behave like a petulant child. Or like Goldman Sachs.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Now might be a suitable moment for those Leavers who were adamant that Brexit negotiations would prove fairly straightforward to accept that they might have been overconfident.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    And I see that that Nicola Sturgeon has very nicely teed up SindyRef2 by apparently graciously conceding that one would not be required if Britain left the EU with a soft Brexit that wasn't going to happen.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    Now might be a suitable moment for those Leavers who were adamant that Brexit negotiations would prove fairly straightforward to accept that they might have been overconfident.

    Why would now be a suitable moment, have the negotiations already gone badly?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    RobD said:

    Now might be a suitable moment for those Leavers who were adamant that Brexit negotiations would prove fairly straightforward to accept that they might have been overconfident.

    Why would now be a suitable moment, have the negotiations already gone badly?
    Just interested to see if I can boil a frog.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    RobD said:

    Now might be a suitable moment for those Leavers who were adamant that Brexit negotiations would prove fairly straightforward to accept that they might have been overconfident.

    Why would now be a suitable moment, have the negotiations already gone badly?
    Just interested to see if I can boil a frog.
    Naughty!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,282

    And I see that that Nicola Sturgeon has very nicely teed up SindyRef2 by apparently graciously conceding that one would not be required if Britain left the EU with a soft Brexit that wasn't going to happen.

    She is basically saying that if we end up leaving a single market to which Scotland exports roughly 10% of its exports then we should leave the single market to which we sell 70% of our exports. Its a completely ridiculous position. Personally, I think she is looking for a way out which maintains some sort of credibility and will ultimately determine that the free trade agreement in goods the UK will achieve is an insufficient trigger for a second referendum which she knows she would lose.
  • Options
    In a second round with Marine Le Pen v. Fillon then the centrists and leftists will vote for Fillon or stay at home. That is self-evident.

    I am not convinced that the converse will happen in Le Pen v. anyone on the left. Some conservatives will see Le Pen as closer to their ideal than a hard left or even centre left candidate.

    Also they have all had five years of Gordon Brown. Whilst Hollande has made a better fist of the Presidency than his predecessor that is not the way the typical passenger on Le Tramway in Besancon sees it.

    So if Fillon is in the second round he will win. Certainly the left need a candidate who reaches out and M Macron might be that candidate. But, he will have a much tougher second round that Fillon would have had. Le Pen needs Fillon to fail to make the second round - then it will be very close.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,996
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    What would be the motivation for the EU to do anything other than thoroughly beast the UK? The survival of The Project is far more important than selling a few VW Tiguans. They've got to make Brexit an ordeal of fire, blood and pus to dissaude anyone else from forming any more closed form compound lexemes based on the names of their countries and verbs of motion.
    Maybe maybe not. Look at it as though the EU were an employer. If an employee leaves sure there is stuff they can do to make things difficult.

    But the other side of that coin is they don't want to be so vexatious such that no one wants to join the company in the first place.
    That's a really poor analogy IMO.

    Besides, the EU will be far more concerned about countries leaving than joining, especially if they are the large countries.
    You don't get to judge analogies on here, that's @kle4.

    The EU is after all nothing if not an ideal. It is right, everyone else is wrong. If we choose to leave more fool us. It ill behoves such a starry organisation to behave like a petulant child. Or like Goldman Sachs.
    Most organisations want to survive. The EU wants to survive. Having a major player leave damages it, and makes it less likely to survive. Two or three major players leaving might prove fatal to it.

    For that reason, they will be looking at what needs to be done to dissuade others from leaving, and making it difficult for the UK to leave is an obvious one.

    A better one would be for them to look at *why* we voted to leave and try addressing the issues, which are also issues in some other players. Sadly, that's not the road they've gone down.

    Given that, expect many in the EU to play a very tough game with us. Some leavers are looking at things from narrow economic viewpoints. Many in the EU wil be willing to take a minor hit on their own economies if it means punishing what they will see as a deserter.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,711
    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    It was a point Michel Marnier was making. The UK practically speaking cannot leave the EU without an agreement. He was saying it wasn't in the EU's interest to screw the UK simply because it can. Which sort of implied that and were tempted.
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    DavidL said:

    And I see that that Nicola Sturgeon has very nicely teed up SindyRef2 by apparently graciously conceding that one would not be required if Britain left the EU with a soft Brexit that wasn't going to happen.

    She is basically saying that if we end up leaving a single market to which Scotland exports roughly 10% of its exports then we should leave the single market to which we sell 70% of our exports. Its a completely ridiculous position. Personally, I think she is looking for a way out which maintains some sort of credibility and will ultimately determine that the free trade agreement in goods the UK will achieve is an insufficient trigger for a second referendum which she knows she would lose.
    Odd that those who are most (publicly) sure that a second Indy referendum would be lost are also keenest on finding reasons for it not to be held.

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MTimT said:

    "While it was the UK that was leaving, Mr Hogan said, the key point was that it was the EU 27 who would decide the exit conditions"

    If that is indeed the thinking in the EU, then the prospect of an amicable split is remote indeed. What Hogan is describing is not exit negotiations, but diktat.

    Isn't it simply a matter of fact. After A50 is invoked, the countdown to leaving starts. Any deal for post Brexit UK is functionally like any external treaty for the EU27, starting from sctratch. They cannot be compelled to agree anything by us as an external party.

    From the EU perspective the exit negotiations are about the division of assets and liabilities, not about a post Brexit deal.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    Pulpstar said:

    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.

    You mean some people on PB just see the thread writer's name and talk nonsense.

    Absolutely astonished by that revelation.
    Macron is he big gainer from the system, Le Pen is the loser.

    She is 4.5 and I woudn't bet on her at those odds even if she were guaranteed a place in the second round.
    I've been laying Le Pen for a while.
    Now that would be quite a story.......
    I'm happy to lay Le Pen but not Merkel.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,996
    And so the tube strike has started. Misery for millions of commuters over ... what ?

    How well is London's new mayor handling it?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    Pulpstar said:

    I agree with this assesment, personally I've kept Fillon onside - but that might say more about me than anything. The one I'm laying is Le Pen

    My book right now on this is

    -498 Le Pen
    +208 Macron
    +118 Fillon
    -222 Other

    Which has a value of -£26 - due mainly to a £75 bet on Juppe.

    The key thing is that Macron does not have to win the first round, if he comes second then Mike's tip is in great shape

    @Pauly criticism of the tip is a complete nonsense.

    You mean some people on PB just see the thread writer's name and talk nonsense.

    Absolutely astonished by that revelation.
    Macron is he big gainer from the system, Le Pen is the loser.

    She is 4.5 and I woudn't bet on her at those odds even if she were guaranteed a place in the second round.
    I've been laying Le Pen for a while.
    Now that would be quite a story.......
    I'm happy to lay Le Pen but not Merkel.
    I think that's very wise. I can think of lots of scenarios where Merkel fails, against very few where Le Pen prevails.

    Of course, you could just have been making a crude joke.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    And so the tube strike has started. Misery for millions of commuters over ... what ?

    How well is London's new mayor handling it?

    He's taken to driving an Uber
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited January 2017
    I think Remainers now have to accept that we're leaving. It's taken a while for the more recalcitrant but the bridges have been burnt.

    It could have been stopped at the Cameron renegotiation stage, but that became a farce instead. With a relatively narrow win for Leave, there still remained a faint chance that the EU would give way on some issues. With good will on both sides, and genuine relaxation of some rules, the EU could have shown it was keen to compromise.

    That time has gone. The EU is keener to come over as frightened and vindictive, worrying more about an implosion than negotiation. We're well rid of them.

    Only the Liberals remain as a bastion of irresponsibility, hoping to claw back a few votes from the stupid and the lickspittles. "Please kick me in the balls again, I'm a whipped cur."

    Article 50 will go ahead. The rest of the world awaits while the EU looks inwards.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    CD13 said:

    I think Remainers now have to accept that we're leaving. It's taken a while for the more recalcitrant but the bridges have been burnt.

    It could have been stopped at the Cameron renegotiation stage, but that became a farce instead. With a relatively narrow win for Leave, there still remained a faint chance that the EU would give way on some issues. With good will on both sides, and genuine relaxation of some rules, the EU could have shown it was keen to compromise.

    That time has gone. The EU is keener to come over as frightened and vindictive, worrying more about an implosion that negotiation. We're well rid of them.

    Only the Liberals remain as a bastion of irresponsibility, hoping to claw back a few votes from the stupid and the lickspittles. "Please kick me in the balls again, I'm a whipped cur."

    Article 50 will go ahead. The rest of the world awaits while the EU looks inwards.

    The EU, and its member states, are acting in their own interests. I don't think that's a surprise.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    rcs1000 said:

    And so the tube strike has started. Misery for millions of commuters over ... what ?

    How well is London's new mayor handling it?

    He's taken to driving an Uber
    whats the strike about. Underground staff get good money iirc
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    Allez, Macron!

    Mr. Meeks, nicely teed up is generous. She's making obvious and transparent pronouncements to keep banging on about independence.
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
This discussion has been closed.