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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Analysing the best Prime Minister polling

SystemSystem Posts: 11,014
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Analysing the best Prime Minister polling

Graphic: The most recent YouGov polling on who would make the best PM

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  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Glorious first :)
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Second again!
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited January 2017
    On the topic of the DKs. A forced choice between Corbyn and May probably wouldn't put too many more in the former's camp.
  • Options
    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Looks like she is using her political capital for Brexit rather than a fake one.
  • Options
    Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185

    Looks like she is using her political capital for Brexit rather than a fake one.

    Yep, she'll be toast by the time the next election comes round.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    She is doing remarkably well with her aporoval ratings in the circumstances. Her job is 90% holding the tories together.
    Quite amusing the idea of labour taking solace in IDS approval ratings. It really is quite simple, corbyn repels about 70% of voters and labour are finished with him as leader.
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    On the topic of the DKs. A forced choice between Corbyn and May probably wouldn't put too many more in the former's camp.

    It could put a fair number in the LD camp though.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Corbinism sweeps the nation as Jezza smashes through to double figures.

    Lab HOLD Bolsover .... :smile:
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Totally bemused by the early reaction to the May speech - it's virtually identical to what she said on Sky. I sense a lot of fake shock and outrage which in this era of fake news is maybe unsurprising.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack

  • Options
    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack

    I agree. Trump's retort was mild given the insult thrown at him.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack

    This is part of the liberal left holy grail which Trump stumbled I suspect unwittingly against. While mos ordinary folk have moved swiftly on metropolitan remains bereft and grief stricken, unable to see the irony in a party called the DEMOCRATS sic! denying the legitimacy of their own democratic process. Time will heal the wounds ... probably :)
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Outrageous and inflammatory indeed. I've not heard the like of it since Donald Trump said that Barack Obama was not a legitimate president.
  • Options
    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    Ally_B said:

    Looks like she is using her political capital for Brexit rather than a fake one.

    Yep, she'll be toast by the time the next election comes round.
    I agree. The economic catastrophe that is likely to occur in the UK in the 12 months post Brexit in April 2019 means that May and the Tories are likely to be fairly unpopular by the time of the next GE in May 2020. However, it isn't possible to predict yet who the electorate will turn to as their saviour - the opposition is divided (in England & Wales) and Labour may not be the beneficiary in many seats.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited January 2017
    felix said:

    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack

    This is part of the liberal left holy grail which Trump stumbled I suspect unwittingly against. While mos ordinary folk have moved swiftly on metropolitan remains bereft and grief stricken, unable to see the irony in a party called the DEMOCRATS sic! denying the legitimacy of their own democratic process. Time will heal the wounds ... probably :)
    I'm not convinced that the sense of self-entitlement will disappear quickly, if ever.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Outrageous and inflammatory indeed. I've not heard the like of it since Donald Trump said that Barack Obama was not a legitimate president.
    Birtherism was idiotic and not mainstream. At the time, Trump was a fringe figure.

    Lewis is different.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    daodao said:

    Ally_B said:

    Looks like she is using her political capital for Brexit rather than a fake one.

    Yep, she'll be toast by the time the next election comes round.
    I agree. The economic catastrophe that is likely to occur in the UK in the 12 months post Brexit in April 2019
    Just like the economic catastrophe that happened in the 12 months post the vote?

    As ever, Mr Meeks' glass is half empty. But I guess we should be grateful its only half.....
  • Options
    Charles said:

    felix said:

    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Trump's criticism is that "he should spend more time fixing his crime ridden district" - standard political knockabout, not some kind of savage attack

    This is part of the liberal left holy grail which Trump stumbled I suspect unwittingly against. While mos ordinary folk have moved swiftly on metropolitan remains bereft and grief stricken, unable to see the irony in a party called the DEMOCRATS sic! denying the legitimacy of their own democratic process. Time will heal the wounds ... probably :)
    I'm not convinced that the sense of self-entitlement will disappear quickly, if ever.
    Self-entitlement is probably a sine qua non of political activism of all shades and types.

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Outrageous and inflammatory indeed. I've not heard the like of it since Donald Trump said that Barack Obama was not a legitimate president.
    Trump is reaping what he has sown. Division and scapegoating.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Off-topic: Sainsbury's yesterday had shelves full of American confections like Twinkies and Tootsie Rolls, as well as an implausibly large number of peanut butter sweets.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Charles said:

    Blue_rog said:

    O/T and apologies for going off piste so soon

    Just watched a piece on BBC about Trump. Don't know if the Beeb could have found a more partisan 'expert'. He could have been the spokesman for HRC!

    The reporting of the Rep. John Lewis tweets has been extraordinary.

    I've not followed the detail, but if Lewis really said that he doesn't regard Trump as the "legitimate President" that's an outrageous and inflammatory thing for a leading politician to say.

    Outrageous and inflammatory indeed. I've not heard the like of it since Donald Trump said that Barack Obama was not a legitimate president.
    And Lewis going into the gutter is classy in what way exactly?
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    "Self-entitlement is probably a sine qua non of political activism of all shades and types."

    Unfortunately so, but people need to learn how to lose. That comes with practice. The young's usual reaction is righteous indignation. I'm right, why can't the others see that?

    Ah, bless.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    edited January 2017
    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
  • Options
    CD13 said:

    "Self-entitlement is probably a sine qua non of political activism of all shades and types."

    Unfortunately so, but people need to learn how to lose. That comes with practice. The young's usual reaction is righteous indignation. I'm right, why can't the others see that?

    Ah, bless.

    :)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Vance, thanks for highlighting those interesting comments. I wonder if May and Hammond are trying for a good cop, bad cop approach.

    On-topic: I'd argue the thread above is essentially correct. May's very lucky to have Corbyn as an opponent. If Cameron hadn't buggered himself twice by pre-announcing his departure then running the worst campaign since Pharnaces II had a fight with Caesar he could be cruising towards the largest victory since the Second World War.

    May's not as talented, certainly at PR, but against a Hamas-befriending, nuke-hating, Russia-loving, economically innumerate socialist she should be gaining seats rather than losing them.

    On that note, am I right in thinking that since 1997 Labour has only lost seats and the Conservatives only gained them (at General Elections)? If so, and it continues in 2020, that's a pretty long term trend.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited January 2017

    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....

    It directly contradicts what May is reported to be saying yesterday.

    May - Hard Brexit is our default position. We would be happy with that.

    Hammond - Hard Brexit would be really, really bad. How far are you willing to go to avoid it?

    EDIT: MD describes it as good cop, bad cop. Which only works if they say different things...
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    An article from Liam Young at the Staggers for everyone to ponder who is saying Labour will be destroyed under Corbyn:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2017/01/dont-write-jeremy-corbyn-20-his-relaunch-has-potential-win

    There are out there some people who are so blinded by tribal loyalty and a refusal to admit error that even the last week won't turn them off the total and abject failure that is his leadership.

    Labour will hold both seats. They will survive Corbyn in some way, because it will take 10 years of disasters like this to kill them (as we saw in Scotland). The question is how long it takes them to recover and what form this will take.

    And the other question is, what deal did May make with a certain figure that she has so much luck in her opponents - Boris, Leadsom and now Corbyn and later Juncker?
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    daodao said:

    Ally_B said:

    Looks like she is using her political capital for Brexit rather than a fake one.

    Yep, she'll be toast by the time the next election comes round.
    I agree. The economic catastrophe that is likely to occur in the UK in the 12 months post Brexit in April 2019
    Just like the economic catastrophe that happened in the 12 months post the vote?

    As ever, Mr Meeks' glass is half empty. But I guess we should be grateful its only half.....
    In the longer term, England may be better off as an independent state outside the EU. However, the short-term pain after actual Brexit (it hasn't happened yet) is likely to be significant. NZ took more than 20 years to recover after Commonwealth trade links were disrupted post the UK joining the (then) EEC.

    I am less convinced about the benefits of leaving the EU for the Celtic fringe. The whole of Ireland would probably be better economically as a united 32-county republic within the EU; a hard border across Ulster (isolating 6 of its 9 counties) is likely to cause major problems. Wales is likely to suffer marked loss of funding post withdrawal from the EU. Scotland won't stay indefinitely within the UK given the level of support for the nationalists there - it will be gone if another 5% of its population change their view to favour independence .
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Scott_P said:

    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....

    It directly contradicts what May is reported to be saying yesterday.

    May - Hard Brexit is our default position. We would be happy with that.

    Hammond - Hard Brexit would be really, really bad. How far are you willing to go to avoid it?
    Since she has never said that your point is what?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
    It only reads that way to an illiterate.
  • Options
    What a disappointment Theresa has been! Her government has no clear plan for Brexit and she is a control freak going for a hard exit. She refuses to tell the nation what she is planning and makes shocking statements that derail the £. And now these poor leadership poll figures.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Vance, thanks for highlighting those interesting comments. I wonder if May and Hammond are trying for a good cop, bad cop approach.

    On-topic: I'd argue the thread above is essentially correct. May's very lucky to have Corbyn as an opponent. If Cameron hadn't buggered himself twice by pre-announcing his departure then running the worst campaign since Pharnaces II had a fight with Caesar he could be cruising towards the largest victory since the Second World War.

    May's not as talented, certainly at PR, but against a Hamas-befriending, nuke-hating, Russia-loving, economically innumerate socialist she should be gaining seats rather than losing them.

    On that note, am I right in thinking that since 1997 Labour has only lost seats and the Conservatives only gained them (at General Elections)? If so, and it continues in 2020, that's a pretty long term trend.

    On topic, the alternative to the hegemony of May at the next election is probably NOC. In those circumstances it is quite possible that even a majority of Labour MPs might favour having someone other than Jezza as PM (possibly including Jezza himself). Farron is the obvious alternative as a coalition PM, or Angus Robertson.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,973
    Dr. Foxinsox, absolutely not.

    Robertson is leader (in Westminster) of a party committed to the destruction of the UK as a political entity. A country being governed by a party that believes it shouldn't exist is farcical.

    Farron would only work if the numbers fit. Not sure I can see that, even with some nice strategic changes to the landscape for the Lib Dems.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960

    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Vance, thanks for highlighting those interesting comments. I wonder if May and Hammond are trying for a good cop, bad cop approach.

    On-topic: I'd argue the thread above is essentially correct. May's very lucky to have Corbyn as an opponent. If Cameron hadn't buggered himself twice by pre-announcing his departure then running the worst campaign since Pharnaces II had a fight with Caesar he could be cruising towards the largest victory since the Second World War.

    May's not as talented, certainly at PR, but against a Hamas-befriending, nuke-hating, Russia-loving, economically innumerate socialist she should be gaining seats rather than losing them.

    On that note, am I right in thinking that since 1997 Labour has only lost seats and the Conservatives only gained them (at General Elections)? If so, and it continues in 2020, that's a pretty long term trend.

    On the last poinyt, when was Crewe & Nantwich?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    edited January 2017
    Scott_P said:

    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....

    It directly contradicts what May is reported to be saying yesterday.

    There is a difference between 'has said in the past' and 'is reported to be saying'.

    Lets wait to see, shall we?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
    Or that a 'punishment BREXIT' would not be without cost to the EU.

    When setting out for revenge, first dig two graves....
  • Options
    Ally_BAlly_B Posts: 185

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    But it's not much of a "threat" is it? The only way we would leave and not be able to get reasonable access to the European market would be with a "Hard Brexit" but that isn't going to happen. We are watching the players round the table laying out their opening positions prior to the start of negotiations. Quite reasonably May/Hammond are saying we want access but on our terms. Within two years they will be saying we negotiated hard/through the night(s), etc and Europe has graciously given ground and have agreed to a "Soft Brexit" (with all that entails but we are not going to bore you with the details). Immigration from Europe will be "controlled" and only the fruit pickers and doctors (plus anyone else we have forgotten we need) will be coming here from Eastern Europe (or anywhere else as our currency has already crashed and it isn't worth while coming here for jobs).
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dr. Foxinsox, absolutely not.

    Robertson is leader (in Westminster) of a party committed to the destruction of the UK as a political entity. A country being governed by a party that believes it shouldn't exist is farcical.

    Farron would only work if the numbers fit. Not sure I can see that, even with some nice strategic changes to the landscape for the Lib Dems.

    My point is that in a NOC Parliament (surely more likely than a Labour majority) it is not inevitable that the leader of the largest party would become the PM. There would be lots of wrangling.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Vance, thanks for highlighting those interesting comments. I wonder if May and Hammond are trying for a good cop, bad cop approach.

    On-topic: I'd argue the thread above is essentially correct. May's very lucky to have Corbyn as an opponent. If Cameron hadn't buggered himself twice by pre-announcing his departure then running the worst campaign since Pharnaces II had a fight with Caesar he could be cruising towards the largest victory since the Second World War.

    May's not as talented, certainly at PR, but against a Hamas-befriending, nuke-hating, Russia-loving, economically innumerate socialist she should be gaining seats rather than losing them.

    On that note, am I right in thinking that since 1997 Labour has only lost seats and the Conservatives only gained them (at General Elections)? If so, and it continues in 2020, that's a pretty long term trend.

    On the last poinyt, when was Crewe & Nantwich?
    May 2008, nine long years ago.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
    Or that a 'punishment BREXIT' would not be without cost to the EU.

    When setting out for revenge, first dig two graves....
    If that is the level of delusion rattling around in HMG then we are stuffed.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
    Or that a 'punishment BREXIT' would not be without cost to the EU.

    When setting out for revenge, first dig two graves....
    It is not punishment Brexit if the outcome is what May wants, ie out of the customs union.

    Agreeing what we ask for is hardly "punishment".
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    ConHome - who have been paying attention, (and not getting an attack of the vapours each time May (effectively) repeats something she said last October) on 'what happens next':

    The speech is unlikely to suggest what May’s response will be if our interlocutors reject her demands outright – or, more likely, seek to drag the talks out to put pressure on her. She does not have to say so directly this week. But she will need to at some point before Article 50 is moved. She will need to make it clear that a good deal – that’s say, a deal which meets her requirements – is better than the Most Favoured Nation status alternative, but that no deal, and MFN, is a lot better than a bad deal.

    The biggest strategic weakness of David Cameron’s renegotiation is that he was never prepared to walk – that’s to say, that he would be prepared to lead Britain out of the EU were his demands not met. His head ended up on a spike. His successor will want to avoid the same fate.


    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/01/no-no-no-mays-maggies-moment-no-ecj-no-single-market-no-customs-union-what-her-speech-this-week-will-say.html
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    Is the Pound likely to continue to fall next week then?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    JonathanD said:

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
    Or that a 'punishment BREXIT' would not be without cost to the EU.

    When setting out for revenge, first dig two graves....
    If that is the level of delusion rattling around in HMG then we are stuffed.
    Brexit may hold risks for Britain - the economy and the supremacy of London as Europe's financial capital being two of them.

    But the rest of the European Union also faces risks.

    And, according to the governor, those risks are greater for the continent.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38582690

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The biggest strategic weakness of David Cameron’s renegotiation is that he was never prepared to walk – that’s to say, that he would be prepared to lead Britain out of the EU were his demands not met. His head ended up on a spike. His successor will want to avoid the same fate.

    Depends what she told Nissan (and other business). If she told them we would not walk, she may end up with her head on a drive shaft anyway
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181
    Ally_B said:

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    But it's not much of a "threat" is it? The only way we would leave and not be able to get reasonable access to the European market would be with a "Hard Brexit" but that isn't going to happen. We are watching the players round the table laying out their opening positions prior to the start of negotiations. Quite reasonably May/Hammond are saying we want access but on our terms. Within two years they will be saying we negotiated hard/through the night(s), etc and Europe has graciously given ground and have agreed to a "Soft Brexit" (with all that entails but we are not going to bore you with the details). Immigration from Europe will be "controlled" and only the fruit pickers and doctors (plus anyone else we have forgotten we need) will be coming here from Eastern Europe (or anywhere else as our currency has already crashed and it isn't worth while coming here for jobs).
    The pound is down roughly 10% against the zloty from last May.

    However, that only takes it from 5.60 to 5.02. I would say it would need to hit around 3 before it is not worth coming to Britain for a minimum wage job.

    Remember, as a Year 9 astutely noted on a trip to Kraków, everything in the shops in Poland is the same price as it is in Birmingham - but in zlotys at 5 to the pound, suddenly that UK minimum wage looks much better.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Is the Pound likely to continue to fall next week then?

    "Downing Street expect her speech to cause a market correction..."
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598

    Is the Pound likely to continue to fall next week then?

    Given how the market gets an attack of the vapours every time May repeats something she said last October, I wouldn't be surprised.....
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Re Hard Brexit.

    1. This outcome was always inevitable, as I noted on another channel:

    https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-hard-brexit-only-option-theresa-may

    2. Who's talking about the NHS now? Dead cats and all that.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,706

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    I don't read it as a threat, but more as something Philip Hammond would deeply regret. It's an interesting interview, not least because it exposes the inconsistencies of soft Brexit. Mr Hammond makes a false distinction between trade and politics, where politics is inferior. Theresa May doesn't speak in these terms, so I think there's at least a difference of emphasis between the two.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I note there was an out of line Opinium poll yesterday, Did You gov have any VI figs?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Re Hard Brexit.

    1. This outcome was always inevitable, as I noted on another channel:

    https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-hard-brexit-only-option-theresa-may

    2. Who's talking about the NHS now? Dead cats and all that.

    So May would sell her country out to avoid a bad press on the NHS?
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD said:

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
    Or that a 'punishment BREXIT' would not be without cost to the EU.

    When setting out for revenge, first dig two graves....
    If that is the level of delusion rattling around in HMG then we are stuffed.
    Brexit may hold risks for Britain - the economy and the supremacy of London as Europe's financial capital being two of them.

    But the rest of the European Union also faces risks.

    And, according to the governor, those risks are greater for the continent.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38582690

    Risks are not the same as actual losses. A risk can be managed in a way that mitigates it without any harm ever happening.

    I don't think carney's statement is as strong a card as you think it is.  As long as the ECB is awake to the risk they will be fine.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598

    Re Hard Brexit.

    1. This outcome was always inevitable, as I noted on another channel:

    https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-hard-brexit-only-option-theresa-may

    2. Who's talking about the NHS now? Dead cats and all that.

    As such, the battle for membership of the Single Market is nothing more than gesture politics and posturing. The decision has been made, not just by the government but by the public. It will be implemented.

    Yep.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Jack is back! Bravo. Since you were last posting the site has become a Sodom and Gomorrah of Trump worshippers
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Ally_B said:

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    But it's not much of a "threat" is it? The only way we would leave and not be able to get reasonable access to the European market would be with a "Hard Brexit" but that isn't going to happen. We are watching the players round the table laying out their opening positions prior to the start of negotiations. Quite reasonably May/Hammond are saying we want access but on our terms. Within two years they will be saying we negotiated hard/through the night(s), etc and Europe has graciously given ground and have agreed to a "Soft Brexit" (with all that entails but we are not going to bore you with the details). Immigration from Europe will be "controlled" and only the fruit pickers and doctors (plus anyone else we have forgotten we need) will be coming here from Eastern Europe (or anywhere else as our currency has already crashed and it isn't worth while coming here for jobs).
    Sounds pretty reasonable and a quite likely outcome. It's odd that all the faux outrage from Farron, etc. is unable to see through any of this.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078
    I must admit that even as a 'europhile' and all the trimmings that involves, I can't help feel a little bit excited about Brexit. It's something new. Who knows how it will turn out!
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Anyone dismayed by the prospect of seeing Nige on Sky this morning can switch over to ITV and see Piers Morgan instead.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,279

    John_M said:

    Morning all. I think (if accurate) Hammond's remarks in Welt am Sonntag are more interesting than May's leaked speech (after a night's reflection).

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-hammond-idUSKBN14Z065

    Agree:

    https://www.welt.de/english-news/article161182946/Philip-Hammond-issues-threat-to-EU-partners.html

    A not too veiled threat:

    Hammond I personally hope we will be able to remain in the mainstream of European economic and social thinking. But if we are forced to be something different, then we will have to become something different.

    Welt am Sonntag: We don’t understand: Who or what would force you?

    Hammond: Economic circumstances. If we have no access to the European market, if we are closed off, if Britain were to leave the European Union without an agreement on market access, then we could suffer from economic damage at least in the short-term. In this case, we could be forced to change our economic model and we will have to change our model to regain competitiveness.


    Edit - but nothing Hammond says is inconsistent with what May has said in the past....
    A not too veiled threat, but to whom?

    It reads as if there is no single market access that he is saying Britain's European style welfare state is under threat.
    And saying we would become a low tax economy would surely give Lab the excuse to oppose everything.
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    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Roger said:

    Jack is back! Bravo. Since you were last posting the site has become a Sodom and Gomorrah of Trump worshippers

    Presumably you can quote some examples, then, of posters here worshipping Trump? (Plato correctly pointing out that he's more intelligent than generally perceived really doesn't count as worship btw)

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,598
    Nick Robinson's take on the Hammond interview: Must read on Brexit. @PHammondMP tells Germany - give us free trade deal or we'll become Europe's Singapore
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326
    I think there are quite a lot of voters like Southam who don't like Corbyn but reject the suggestion that means they have to endorse May. That said, she still has credit left with voters who an't really following politics and aren't aware of the unease that she doesn't know what she's doing about Brexit or the NHS, and just feel she seems quietly competent. That will dissipate quickly if serious problems arise. Conversely if Brexit is perceived to go well, she'll be fine. We're still in a holding pattern and likely to stay that way for a while.,
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Nick Robinson's take on the Hammond interview: Must read on Brexit. @PHammondMP tells Germany - give us free trade deal or we'll become Europe's Singapore

    They must be laughing. The idea that Britain could be Singapore is silly.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Her government has no clear plan for Brexit and she is a control freak going for a hard exit. She refuses to tell the nation what she is planning

    is it really too much to ask you to wait 72 hours?
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    A couple of thoughts on topic:
    1. Leadership scores are relative. May is miles ahead because Corbyn is made of cyanide. It will stay this may - right through to a GE result - until Corbyn goes. But then the relative scores might move. (Unless his replacement is another hard lefty).
    2. Part of May's score is driven by her lack, thus far, of Brexit clarity. Seems we are going to get a bunch of that this week.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.



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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Jonathan said:

    Re Hard Brexit.

    1. This outcome was always inevitable, as I noted on another channel:

    https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-hard-brexit-only-option-theresa-may

    2. Who's talking about the NHS now? Dead cats and all that.

    So May would sell her country out to avoid a bad press on the NHS?
    I think more likely May will sell the country out because she doesn't want to appear weak in negotiating the Brexit outcome; instead of trying to hard boil the EU into the best possible outcome, she is throwing in the towel at the start to avoid any kind of humiliation later down the line.
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,078

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.

    Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,960

    Nick Robinson's take on the Hammond interview: Must read on Brexit. @PHammondMP tells Germany - give us free trade deal or we'll become Europe's Singapore

    Singapore doesn’t have real elections ie with a chance of a change of government though ..... I know, I know ...... Nor does it have a litter problem because of the way the administration operates.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.



    Jezza on Marr hinting Red Brexit as an alternative to Hammonds free trade low tax, minimal welfare Blue Brexit
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    CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840
    edited January 2017
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?

    What's wrong with a trade war (which is hyperbole - we're talking about ordinary tax/tariff/currency policy)? It's competition. It's healthy. How do you think the world outside the EU works? Indeed the EU itself conducts a 'trade war' with the rest of the planet. Ask the African farmers.
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    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    edited January 2017
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?

    When your fact base for a complaint is Corbyn, you're struggling.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.

    Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?
    As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.

    See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    maaarsh said:

    When your fact base for a complaint is Corbyn, you're struggling.

    The "fact base" is Hammond's comments
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?

    Corbyn missing the point as usual.
    Difficult to know who is more contemptible: Corbyn or Trump?

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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tyson said:

    Jonathan said:

    Re Hard Brexit.

    1. This outcome was always inevitable, as I noted on another channel:

    https://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/opinion/david-herdson-hard-brexit-only-option-theresa-may

    2. Who's talking about the NHS now? Dead cats and all that.

    So May would sell her country out to avoid a bad press on the NHS?
    I think more likely May will sell the country out because she doesn't want to appear weak in negotiating the Brexit outcome; instead of trying to hard boil the EU into the best possible outcome, she is throwing in the towel at the start to avoid any kind of humiliation later down the line.
    Sounds about right to me, But hard Brexit was always on the cards.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.

    Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?
    As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.

    See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
    That would trash our competitiveness. Nothing competitive about having people sick or on the street. Anyway people voted to leave the EU to provide more resources to health etc.
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    I must admit that even as a 'europhile' and all the trimmings that involves, I can't help feel a little bit excited about Brexit. It's something new. Who knows how it will turn out!

    It's going to be awesome. Both for us and our fellow European countries. Just be patient. :)
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?

    What's wrong with a trade war (which is hyperbole - we're talking about ordinary tax/tariff/currency policy)? It's competition. It's healthy. How do you think the world outside the EU works? Indeed the EU itself conducts a 'trade war' with the rest of the planet. Ask the African farmers.
    It's not hyperbole, it's garbage.
    By this logic the whole world is already in a "trade war".
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806
    The Dutch Socialist Deputy PM has been insisting on no deal with Britain unless it guarantees that it won't become a tax haven.
    If we are denied a fair deal ministers (Hammond/Fox?) have said that Britain would drastically cut its taxes in order to compete.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?

    Hammond's rather bland interview as interpreted by Corbyn's room-temperature IQ.

    I do agree with Corbyn on one thing; the media, (and people interested in politics!) get ahead of events. The tone, overall content and clarifying remarks in May's speech are, as yet, unknown.

    It's been pointed out umpteen times that the UK doesn't get to decide whether it stays in the Single Market. It's not our decision. Staying in the customs union would be bizarre. That said, there doesn't have to be one customs union- Turkey and the EU have a customs union. Qualifying that remark, it only exists as part of the polite fiction that Turkey will eventually join as a full member.
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    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?

    What's wrong with a trade war (which is hyperbole - we're talking about ordinary tax/tariff/currency policy)? It's competition. It's healthy. How do you think the world outside the EU works? Indeed the EU itself conducts a 'trade war' with the rest of the planet. Ask the African farmers.
    It's not hyperbole, it's garbage.
    By this logic the whole world is already in a "trade war".
    Exactly. It is. It's the normal way of doing things. The alternative is a One World Government and stagnation.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Theresa May " I want a hard Brexit " = " I am shit at negotiating and we'll get nothing"
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Jonathan said:

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.

    Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?
    As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.

    See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
    That would trash our competitiveness. Nothing competitive about having people sick or on the street. Anyway people voted to leave the EU to provide more resources to health etc.
    What they voted for, and the economic logic of the vote, are two different things.

    Anyway, I agree with you - just spelling out the implication of Hammond's very fair appraisal of where we are.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,842
    daodao said:

    Ally_B said:

    Looks like she is using her political capital for Brexit rather than a fake one.

    Yep, she'll be toast by the time the next election comes round.
    I agree. The economic catastrophe that is likely to occur in the UK in the 12 months post Brexit in April 2019 means that May and the Tories are likely to be fairly unpopular by the time of the next GE in May 2020. However, it isn't possible to predict yet who the electorate will turn to as their saviour - the opposition is divided (in England & Wales) and Labour may not be the beneficiary in many seats.
    Hard to imagine what the Tories could do that would make Labour electable as they are now.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.

    Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?
    As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.

    See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
    Yep, the next step in the process of globalisation is Brexit and Trump demolishing the welfare state.

    Possibly a good thing, and for Tories not an issue, but it may well be for the Red, Purple and Tartan CDE's.
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    What a disappointment Theresa has been! Her government has no clear plan for Brexit and she is a control freak going for a hard exit. She refuses to tell the nation what she is planning and makes shocking statements that derail the £. And now these poor leadership poll figures.

    Let's see what the situation is in 2019 after the 2 years of Article 50 negotiations.

    And then let's see the general election outcome in 2020. Methinks a healthy Tory majority.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,911
    If Cameroons are so horrified by the PMs take on Brexit, all they have to do is vote Lib Dem at the next GE.

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    tysontyson Posts: 6,050

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.



    There was a great what if scenario if the channel winds had not prevailed against the Amada. Britain would be an insignificant, poor Catholic outpost where the locals enjoy getting drunk.

    May's Brexit vision is truly dystopic for the UK. A dislocated part of Europe, desperately trying to curry favour with the tyrants of the world, cap in hand, and getting poorer.......
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    Is it me or does Marr come over a bit agitated about Theresa May's plans and trying to lead Corbyn into saying it will be a disaster. Good on Corbyn for pulling him up
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.

    Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?
    As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.

    See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
    Yep, the next step in the process of globalisation is Brexit and Trump demolishing the welfare state.

    Possibly a good thing, and for Tories not an issue, but it may well be for the Red, Purple and Tartan CDE's.
    In what sense a good thing?
    (Do you mean in terms of a wake up call for a complacent electorate)?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    It's a fair and clear appraisal from Hammond.

    He continues to impress, or perhaps is flattered by comparison with his cabinet colleagues.

    If we do indeed have a hard Brexit, with the economic dislocation Hammond implies, what is going to give? The country did not vote Brexit in order to dismantle the social welfare system, but logic says it must follow.

    Why must our welfare system change if we have 'hard' Brexit?
    As Hammond says, we will need to regain competitiveness. The only way to do that is to reduce taxation. In turn this implies further cuts in government spending.

    See also, Trump's emerging economic policy.
    But we don't have to reduce taxation. We can increase the number of businesses and wealthy individuals basing themselves in the UK.

    Want the best health service in the world? Then get another 100,000 oligarchs to live here - and tax them. Get the Fortune 500 companies lured here by world beating corporation tax rates. Set up enterprise zones for world-beating new technologies, with slashed tax rates for the first 10 years.

    Do all the stuff where we'll no longer need to go to Brussels to ask for permission.
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    Just new to the thread but it seems the comments by those in the remain camp are entirely predictable
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Corbyn says Chancellor is threatening 'some kind of trade war' with the EU if we don't get the access to single market we want, with low tax

    Can the Brexiteers sustain the myth that we voted for "trade war" ?

    Yet another silly comment - since when did 'Corbyn says' equal what Hammond meant!
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Is it me or does Marr come over a bit agitated about Theresa May's plans and trying to lead Corbyn into saying it will be a disaster. Good on Corbyn for pulling him up

    It's you. Andrew Marr has previously written about what might be the upsides of Brexit with a heroically Pollyannaish take:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/optimists-guide-brexit
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    Is it me or does Marr come over a bit agitated about Theresa May's plans and trying to lead Corbyn into saying it will be a disaster. Good on Corbyn for pulling him up

    It's you. Andrew Marr has previously written about what might be the upsides of Brexit with a heroically Pollyannaish take:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/12/optimists-guide-brexit
    Did you watch him this morning
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