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SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A cartoon to start this historic week

Copyright Helen Cochrane & Nicholas Leonard 2017

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Comments

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    First like Trump?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Needs a big TRUMP sign on the front.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,081
    Third like Corbyn
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    It's important Trump heals the wounds. Because I backed that at 4 in the speech market.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,429
    Michael Gove as our ambassador to the US?
  • Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Michael Gove as our ambassador to the US?

    Whose interests would Gove be serving?

    He'd come across as not-very-convincing triple-agent.

    Trump doesn't respect gove, farage and the brexiteers - he sees them as pawns who can be played.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    Hi Roger, I hope you didn't bet on either of Manchester clubs for the PL :)
  • Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    President Truman gutted the Whitehouse interior and had it rebuilt, while Nixon installed a bowling alley. No doubt Trump will add something tasteful, like a gold plated Jacuzzi, time will tell.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Good morning, everyone.

    It's important Trump heals the wounds. Because I backed that at 4 in the speech market.

    String of three words, never like those on Buzzword bingo.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited January 2017
    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    Hi Roger, I hope you didn't bet on either of Manchester clubs for the PL :)
    I was just burnishing my credentials as worst tipster on PB. One or two were getting close.

    United far from going down to 8/1 have gone up to 20/1!
  • glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

  • Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited January 2017
    Pong said:

    Michael Gove as our ambassador to the US?

    Whose interests would Gove be serving?

    He'd come across as not-very-convincing triple-agent.

    Trump doesn't respect gove, farage and the brexiteers - he sees them as pawns who can be played.

    He certainly has a soft spot for Farage, it was Farage who helped lift his campaign at that rally in Mississippi when it was at a low ebb
  • Pong said:

    Michael Gove as our ambassador to the US?

    Whose interests would Gove be serving?

    He'd come across as not-very-convincing triple-agent.

    Trump doesn't respect gove, farage and the brexiteers - he sees them as pawns who can be played.

    He is certainly astute, you have to give him that.

  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Pong said:

    Trump doesn't respect gove, farage and the brexiteers anyone - he sees them as pawns who can be played.

    Fixed it for you.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770

    rcs1000 said:

    Yep - it could well be that Trump ends up doing the very opposite of what he wants. If that did happen, where it leaves us is very open to question.

    Can't see it. To replace the US commitment EU countries would not be talking about 2% defense spending, more like 10% defense spending. Last year the US defense budget was just shy of 600 billion dollars. The next nearest is China on barely a quarter of that, while we languish on 56bn, still almost doubt the Germans and close to triple the Italians.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/02/09/this-remarkable-chart-shows-how-u-s-defense-spending-dwarfs-the-rest-of-the-world/?utm_term=.d7afa5ee6802
    True, but the US also needs to have presence in the Atlantic and the Pacific. The EU really only requires a credible land and air force.
    The vast majority of cutting edge military research happens in the USA, and they are not happy about sharing it with anyone, so losing that as component in the EU defense is bigger than it seems. For example one component of defending a russian advance is dropping the major bridges on the way, which requires stealth fighters and bombers to do with certainly, and the US doesn't sell those to anyone else. Hell, they wont even LAND the stealth bomber outside the continental USA.

    The loss of US defense satellite and intercept intelligence would be a devastating loss as well.
    But the EU doesn't have to be better than Russia, it just has to be good enough to deter military action. Right now, it's not. If they spent 2% of GDP, in all probability they would be good enough. After all, the French have nukes, there's a large total population and plenty of money.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Pulpstar, more words does make things trickier, but he said it at his victory speech, and he's very fond of repetition.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
    If you thought Blair was Bush's 'poodle' and were embarrassed by the UK's humiliation.

    You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    Hi Roger, I hope you didn't bet on either of Manchester clubs for the PL :)
    I was just burnishing my credentials as worst tipster on PB. One or two were getting close.

    United far from going down to 8/1 have gone up to 20/1!
    As much as it pains me to say it, I think if anyone is going to catch Chelsea it will be Spurs.

    I do hope we get another Oscars thread from you, that was very impressive last year.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    *Cough* pre-referendum these forums were full of EU fanbois telling us how the EU had kept the peace for years, Mr Jessop springs immediately to mind.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
    Sadly, I think this will have the opposite effect. There's nothing like an external threat (Putin, Trump) to get people with disparate interests to work together. I think Trump and Putin are pushing the EU countries closer together.

    Don't forget that in places like France less than a fifth of people have a positive view of Trump.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alan-grant-2/eu-referendum_b_8326028.html
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
    If you thought Blair was Bush's 'poodle' and were embarrassed by the UK's humiliation.

    You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet!
    May made clear she would not be Trump's poodle, the relationship will be businesslike but certainly less close than Blair Clinton or Blair Bush or Cameron Obama. Farage is Trump's poodle
  • glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.

    I have never seen anyone anywhere (except, perhaps, Jeremy Corbyn) claim that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping the peace in Europe for the last 70 years. Surely you should be able to provide a few examples of Remain supporters saying it.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Bloody grim morning in London.
  • glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alan-grant-2/eu-referendum_b_8326028.html

    That article says explicitly that NATO has played a significant role in keeping peace in Europe.

  • HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

  • glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    *Cough* pre-referendum these forums were full of EU fanbois telling us how the EU had kept the peace for years, Mr Jessop springs immediately to mind.

    It is pretty self-evident that countries which trade together and co-operate politically are less likely to fight each other. But that does not mean that NATO has not played a significant role - especially with regards to Russia.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    Hi Roger, I hope you didn't bet on either of Manchester clubs for the PL :)
    I was just burnishing my credentials as worst tipster on PB. One or two were getting close.

    United far from going down to 8/1 have gone up to 20/1!
    As much as it pains me to say it, I think if anyone is going to catch Chelsea it will be Spurs.

    I do hope we get another Oscars thread from you, that was very impressive last year.
    No it won't. Years of experience as a Spurs fan tells me otherwise.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective
    On that basis, the rise of nationalist parties in Europe in the 1930s was in our interest as it threatened the stability of Germany, etc.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    It's funny, BMW's car plant in South Carolina is the biggest exporting car plant in the world.
  • HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
    If you thought Blair was Bush's 'poodle' and were embarrassed by the UK's humiliation.

    You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet!
    May made clear she would not be Trump's poodle, the relationship will be businesslike but certainly less close than Blair Clinton or Blair Bush or Cameron Obama. Farage is Trump's poodle

    Farage is not alone - he is symptomatic of the anti-EU right's embrace of Trump; as thumbs up Michael Gove is currently demonstrating.

  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    *Cough* pre-referendum these forums were full of EU fanbois telling us how the EU had kept the peace for years, Mr Jessop springs immediately to mind.

    It is pretty self-evident that countries which trade together and co-operate politically are less likely to fight each other. But that does not mean that NATO has not played a significant role - especially with regards to Russia.

    Like the US and China you mean ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015
    rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
    Sadly, I think this will have the opposite effect. There's nothing like an external threat (Putin, Trump) to get people with disparate interests to work together. I think Trump and Putin are pushing the EU countries closer together.

    Don't forget that in places like France less than a fifth of people have a positive view of Trump.
    Betting perspective: that doesn't help Le Pen.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

    It weakens the EU, sowing division among the EU nations is probably a net benefit at the moment. If it were to cause other nations to leave it would definitely suit our agenda. Whether or not you like the idea or agree with it, weakening the EU is absolutely in our favour.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited January 2017

    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.

    I have never seen anyone anywhere (except, perhaps, Jeremy Corbyn) claim that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping the peace in Europe for the last 70 years. Surely you should be able to provide a few examples of Remain supporters saying it.

    Just from the first page of searching Google for "NATO EU peace".

    http://veteransforbritain.uk/wordpress/?p=119

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/the-eu-does-not-preserve-peace-in-europe--instead-it-has-brought/

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/05/eu-not-nato-has-brought-peace-our-continent

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/david-cameron-eu-nato-war-in-europe-letters-a7022806.html

    http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Truth-Beyond-Price/Was-Europes-Peace-due-to-NATO-or-the-European-Community-Letters-to-the-Telegraph-442235

    http://europe.newsweek.com/brexit-boris-johnson-david-cameron-security-nato-eu-457370?rm=eu
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    MaxPB said:

    Bloody grim morning in London.

    Nice and sunny in the Middle East. Bit cold today though, only 23C at midday. Brrr. ;)
  • On topic: I find the thread header cartoon is a lazy lefty arrogant wankfest. The liberal consensus has been failing for a long time. Failing to deal with the realities of globalisation and the impact on ordinary people's lives. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, 5 Star, AfD, etc are all reactions to a 'settled' political coziness that hasn't worked for many , many voters. Voters who have frankly had enough.
    Portraying Trump and the whole political phenomemon across the developed world as 'childish' is itself profoundly childish. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity. It's time we tried something different. Something that ordinary voters can feel connected to.
    So FUCK YOU helen Cochrane and Nicholas Leonard.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    Patrick said:

    On topic: I find the thread header cartoon is a lazy lefty arrogant wankfest. The liberal consensus has been failing for a long time. Failing to deal with the realities of globalisation and the impact on ordinary people's lives. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, 5 Star, AfD, etc are all reactions to a 'settled' political coziness that hasn't worked for many , many voters. Voters who have frankly had enough.
    Portraying Trump and the whole political phenomemon across the developed world as 'childish' is itself profoundly childish. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity. It's time we tried something different. Something that ordinary voters can feel connected to.
    So FUCK YOU helen Cochrane and Nicholas Leonard.

    What an extreme reaction to an amusing cartoon. Trump does tweet a lot, that's a defining attribute of the way he has so far done business.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.
  • glw said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.

    I have never seen anyone anywhere (except, perhaps, Jeremy Corbyn) claim that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping the peace in Europe for the last 70 years. Surely you should be able to provide a few examples of Remain supporters saying it.

    Just from the first page of searching Google for "NATO EU peace".

    http://veteransforbritain.uk/wordpress/?p=119

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/the-eu-does-not-preserve-peace-in-europe--instead-it-has-brought/

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/05/eu-not-nato-has-brought-peace-our-continent

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/david-cameron-eu-nato-war-in-europe-letters-a7022806.html

    http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Truth-Beyond-Price/Was-Europes-Peace-due-to-NATO-or-the-European-Community-Letters-to-the-Telegraph-442235

    http://europe.newsweek.com/brexit-boris-johnson-david-cameron-security-nato-eu-457370?rm=eu

    Not one of those states that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    TOPPING said:

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Which leavers ? People are voting leave for many different and nuanced reasons. Yes, I know its easier to throw rocks at labels, but even so...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
  • MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

    It weakens the EU, sowing division among the EU nations is probably a net benefit at the moment. If it were to cause other nations to leave it would definitely suit our agenda. Whether or not you like the idea or agree with it, weakening the EU is absolutely in our favour.

    In what way? Instability in Europe and the break-up of the EU would cause huge short and medium term economic harm to our single biggest export market.

  • rcs1000 said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
    Sadly, I think this will have the opposite effect. There's nothing like an external threat (Putin, Trump) to get people with disparate interests to work together. I think Trump and Putin are pushing the EU countries closer together.

    Don't forget that in places like France less than a fifth of people have a positive view of Trump.
    Betting perspective: that doesn't help Le Pen.

    Yep - being seen as close to Trump is not going to be helpful to politicians that are seeking power in Europe. May has a very difficult tightrope to walk - especially given Trump's innate untrustworthiness.

  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    glw said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.

    I have never seen anyone anywhere (except, perhaps, Jeremy Corbyn) claim that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping the peace in Europe for the last 70 years. Surely you should be able to provide a few examples of Remain supporters saying it.

    Just from the first page of searching Google for "NATO EU peace".

    http://veteransforbritain.uk/wordpress/?p=119

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/the-eu-does-not-preserve-peace-in-europe--instead-it-has-brought/

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/05/eu-not-nato-has-brought-peace-our-continent

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/david-cameron-eu-nato-war-in-europe-letters-a7022806.html

    http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Truth-Beyond-Price/Was-Europes-Peace-due-to-NATO-or-the-European-Community-Letters-to-the-Telegraph-442235

    http://europe.newsweek.com/brexit-boris-johnson-david-cameron-security-nato-eu-457370?rm=eu

    Not one of those states that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

    I am not sure anyone's original position was that NATO had done nothing. You appear to be defending a proposition no one made. There was plenty of claims in those article and on these forums that the lions share of the peace making and keeping in Europe was due to the EU not NATO.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

    It weakens the EU, sowing division among the EU nations is probably a net benefit at the moment. If it were to cause other nations to leave it would definitely suit our agenda. Whether or not you like the idea or agree with it, weakening the EU is absolutely in our favour.

    In what way? Instability in Europe and the break-up of the EU would cause huge short and medium term economic harm to our single biggest export market.

    And in the long term it would allow us to trade with each individual nation without having to agree to egregious terms.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I've just heard an interview with michael Gove. Even as someone with his head three quarters of the way up Trump's backside he more or less conceded that Trump hasn't the faintest idea what he's talking about or doing. That he didn't ask for clarification on the garbage that Trump was spouting was because 'he was there as a journalist'

    If ever there was a time in recent history where we NEED our EU allies this is it

    We could be facing disaster
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    Not one of those states that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

    I never said "nothing" that was you. I said dismissive.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    edited January 2017
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    Not quite sure how you can get any harder ball than "piss off" which we seem to be pretty close to right now. Ultimately the EU wants beneficial geopolitical relations as well, and access to the City of London is one such, as is access to the fifth largest army on the planet, and the second biggest contributor in the dominant intelligence gathering player.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.
    The counter-argument from leavers is that the EU had *nothing* to do with the peace in western Europe (deliberately excluding the Balkans) that has now lasted seventy years, and that it was all down to NATO.

    This argument was seen on here all the time, and directly goes against Prez Trump's apparent direction.

    What I argued was that it was both; it is self-evident that countries with strong mutual interests will find war a less attractive proposition, and stronger countries working together to protect the interests of smaller countries deters aggression.

    Many large wars have started in the past when larger countries start to pick militarily on smaller ones. The EU gives those smaller countries economic and political strength; NATO gives them potential military strength.

    And protecting those small countries is to the advantage of us all, as small, local wars can have an annoying tendency to spread.
  • glw said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.

    I have never seen anyone anywhere (except, perhaps, Jeremy Corbyn) claim that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping the peace in Europe for the last 70 years. Surely you should be able to provide a few examples of Remain supporters saying it.

    Just from the first page of searching Google for "NATO EU peace".

    http://veteransforbritain.uk/wordpress/?p=119

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/the-eu-does-not-preserve-peace-in-europe--instead-it-has-brought/

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/05/eu-not-nato-has-brought-peace-our-continent

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/david-cameron-eu-nato-war-in-europe-letters-a7022806.html

    http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Truth-Beyond-Price/Was-Europes-Peace-due-to-NATO-or-the-European-Community-Letters-to-the-Telegraph-442235

    http://europe.newsweek.com/brexit-boris-johnson-david-cameron-security-nato-eu-457370?rm=eu

    Not one of those states that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

    I am not sure anyone's original position was that NATO had done nothing. You appear to be defending a proposition no one made. There was plenty of claims in those article and on these forums that the lions share of the peace making and keeping in Europe was due to the EU not NATO.

    Where? The original assertion was that the Remain side dismissed NATO as a force for peace in Europe and said it was all about the EU. I have seen plenty of claims that the EU was a force for peace - and clearly countries that trade and cooperate with each other are less likely to fight than those that do not - but that saying that does not in any way diminish the role that NATO has played, especially with regards to Russia.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alan-grant-2/eu-referendum_b_8326028.html

    That article says explicitly that NATO has played a significant role in keeping peace in Europe.

    No.

    NATO has done sterling work in enforcing peace in Europe

    The author's point is that Nato has enforced peace while the EU has kept it.....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015
    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.
    You can count the number of Brexiteers opposed to NATO on the fingers of one hand.

    The equivalence is often made between supporting withdrawal from the EU and the UN/NATO/WTO, and other international organisations, but there isn't one and we don't.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    Roger said:

    I've just heard an interview with michael Gove. Even as someone with his head three quarters of the way up Trump's backside he more or less conceded that Trump hasn't the faintest idea what he's talking about or doing. That he didn't ask for clarification on the garbage that Trump was spouting was because 'he was there as a journalist'

    If ever there was a time in recent history where we NEED our EU allies this is it

    We could be facing disaster

    If Trump is even half as bad as you hopefear, being in the EU will make no difference what so ever.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    I imagine that the brexiteers have realised with horror that the EU is now just Greater Germany and the UK has been reduced to a small island off it's coast. As Donald Trump said in Goves interview, Merkel is the most powerful person in Europe. 
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    Not quite sure how you can get any harder ball than "piss off" which we seem to be pretty close to right now. Ultimately the EU wants beneficial geopolitical relations as well, and access to the City of London is one such, as is access to the fifth largest army on the planet, and the second biggest contributor in the dominant intelligence gathering player.
    I would be interested to see the wording of the document which gave them "access to the fifth largest army on the planet."

    And as for who is telling whom to piss off, yes of course there is some tactical positioning before negotiations. But they are the club which we have just left and hence I see their "piss off" as more: "these are the rules if you want entry".
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    glw said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.

    I have never seen anyone anywhere (except, perhaps, Jeremy Corbyn) claim that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping the peace in Europe for the last 70 years. Surely you should be able to provide a few examples of Remain supporters saying it.

    Just from the first page of searching Google for "NATO EU peace".

    http://veteransforbritain.uk/wordpress/?p=119

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/09/the-eu-does-not-preserve-peace-in-europe--instead-it-has-brought/

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/economy/2016/05/eu-not-nato-has-brought-peace-our-continent

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/david-cameron-eu-nato-war-in-europe-letters-a7022806.html

    http://www.jpost.com/Blogs/Truth-Beyond-Price/Was-Europes-Peace-due-to-NATO-or-the-European-Community-Letters-to-the-Telegraph-442235

    http://europe.newsweek.com/brexit-boris-johnson-david-cameron-security-nato-eu-457370?rm=eu

    Not one of those states that NATO has had nothing to do with keeping peace in Europe for the last 70 years.

    Good morning all. The New Statesman article explicitly makes that very claim.

    However, given the bullshit that has been spouted by both sides, we must be charitable. A cursory reading of any of Guido's comments threads, or anything from the Express will provide ample proof that there are plenty of utterly deluded Brexiteers.

    So far this year, it's been comforting to see that the EU is showing signs of recovery. There's every likelihood that they will be finally starting to prosper just as we enter our next recession. Assuming both sides don't actually pull up the trade drawbridge, that could be useful cushion and promote a quicker UK recovery than would otherwise be the case.

    We probably need to create a taxonomy of Leavers. I do agree that there's a tranche that actively want the EU to fall apart, for what reason, I cannot fathom.
  • Roger said:

    I've just heard an interview with michael Gove. Even as someone with his head three quarters of the way up Trump's backside he more or less conceded that Trump hasn't the faintest idea what he's talking about or doing. That he didn't ask for clarification on the garbage that Trump was spouting was because 'he was there as a journalist'

    If ever there was a time in recent history where we NEED our EU allies this is it

    We could be facing disaster

    We should all be comforted that Govey thinks everyone is doing a great job, specifically May, Boris and Darroch. The fact that his opinions are entirely disinterested and agenda free can only add reassurance.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    JonathanD said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    I imagine that the brexiteers have realised with horror that the EU is now just Greater Germany and the UK has been reduced to a small island off it's coast. As Donald Trump said in Goves interview, Merkel is the most powerful person in Europe. 
    Or possibly that will be her coalition partner in a few months :smirk:
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

    It weakens the EU, sowing division among the EU nations is probably a net benefit at the moment. If it were to cause other nations to leave it would definitely suit our agenda. Whether or not you like the idea or agree with it, weakening the EU is absolutely in our favour.

    In what way? Instability in Europe and the break-up of the EU would cause huge short and medium term economic harm to our single biggest export market.

    And in the long term it would allow us to trade with each individual nation without having to agree to egregious terms.

    Your claim was "sowing division among the EU nations is probably a net benefit at the moment". Clearly, it isn't - division and instability in the EU will harm us financially and economically. In any case, trading with individual countries is inevitably more expensive and time consuming than doing it with one bloc. What we should be doing now is seeking the best possible deal with the EU and wishing it the very best.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    Russian MPs try to decriminalise domestic abuse. You can abuse your spouse and kids, but only once, and only a little bit:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-duma-parliament-decriminialise-domestic-violence-tradition-parental-authority-battery-abuse-a7523461.html

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38595993

    Interestingly, this appears to be against Putin's wishes.
  • glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alan-grant-2/eu-referendum_b_8326028.html

    That article says explicitly that NATO has played a significant role in keeping peace in Europe.

    No.

    NATO has done sterling work in enforcing peace in Europe

    The author's point is that Nato has enforced peace while the EU has kept it.....

    And I am sometimes accused of dancing on the head of a pin :-D

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
    Fair enough as a viewpoint. I would also point out that the break up of the EU would not be without consequences and I guess many of those would impact negatively on us but, as I realise that plenty of Leavers aren't just Leavers, but are redraw, via sturm and drang, the geopolitical map of Europe over the next 20-50 years-ers, then I suppose this is all part of the master plan.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.
    You can count the number of Brexiteers opposed to NATO on the fingers of one hand.

    The equivalence is often made between supporting withdrawal from the EU and the UN/NATO/WTO, and other international organisations, but there isn't one and we don't.
    People fail to make the distinction between leaving a political union which has not been favourable to our nation over the last 10 years and a military alliance that has helped keep relations with the USSR and latterly Russia in relative peace. I wonder what they could gain out of doing that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015
    On defence, given the role, responsibilities and aspirations of the UK as an independent power, we should be spending something like 2.8-3% GDP on defence, not barely scraping 2%.

    Boy oh boy is there waste in the MoD, but we're something like short of: RN (5-6 escort capital ships, and about 8-10k sailors), RAF (3-4 squadrons, and about 5k personnel, and maritime surveillance aircraft) and the army about 25k men short. Plus a chunk on R&D.

    I'd have thought we'd need c.25 escort ships, 2 carriers, 8 subs, 4 strategic subs and 100+ F35s for our fleet. 6 strike squadrons and 8 for home defence. And about 105,000-110,000 men in the army to have fully flexible strategic options, plus meet our existing standing commitments.

    Our logistics and supply arm is probably ok.

    If we're not willing to do that, we may as well give up and just have a minimum home defence force because at the moment we are trying (and failing) to do everything on the thinnest of shoe strings, and doing little of it well.
  • Patrick said:

    On topic: I find the thread header cartoon is a lazy lefty arrogant wankfest. The liberal consensus has been failing for a long time. Failing to deal with the realities of globalisation and the impact on ordinary people's lives. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, 5 Star, AfD, etc are all reactions to a 'settled' political coziness that hasn't worked for many , many voters. Voters who have frankly had enough.
    Portraying Trump and the whole political phenomemon across the developed world as 'childish' is itself profoundly childish. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity. It's time we tried something different. Something that ordinary voters can feel connected to.
    So FUCK YOU helen Cochrane and Nicholas Leonard.

    The first snowflake of the day.
    It is January I suppose.
  • Roger said:

    I've just heard an interview with michael Gove. Even as someone with his head three quarters of the way up Trump's backside he more or less conceded that Trump hasn't the faintest idea what he's talking about or doing. That he didn't ask for clarification on the garbage that Trump was spouting was because 'he was there as a journalist'

    If ever there was a time in recent history where we NEED our EU allies this is it

    We could be facing disaster

    And so they need to negotiate a sensible deal.

    I like most have no idea where all this is going and Trump does not provide confidence or re-assurance. However, I would imagine the EU and in particular the Commission know they are waking up to one of their worse nightmares. The President of the US is anti the Commission and pro the Nation states in a big way.

    How is he going to influence the French, Dutch and German elections this year. It is not too much to imagine chaos will reign in Europe which, though I now want to leave, is not a very good place to be
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    ICYI - Gove on Sky at 0945 re Trump intv
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
    Fair enough as a viewpoint. I would also point out that the break up of the EU would not be without consequences and I guess many of those would impact negatively on us but, as I realise that plenty of Leavers aren't just Leavers, but are redraw, via sturm and drang, the geopolitical map of Europe over the next 20-50 years-ers, then I suppose this is all part of the master plan.
    "plenty of leavers".. can you name five ?
  • TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
    Fair enough as a viewpoint. I would also point out that the break up of the EU would not be without consequences and I guess many of those would impact negatively on us but, as I realise that plenty of Leavers aren't just Leavers, but are redraw, via sturm and drang, the geopolitical map of Europe over the next 20-50 years-ers, then I suppose this is all part of the master plan.
    Ireland must come into the equation of re-alligning her position re Europe
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

    A strong, united EU will look to punish the UK
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    JonathanD said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    I imagine that the brexiteers have realised with horror that the EU is now just Greater Germany and the UK has been reduced to a small island off it's coast. As Donald Trump said in Goves interview, Merkel is the most powerful person in Europe. 
    That was true whether or not we left. The fact dawned on most leavers a long time ago which is why many voted to leave. The remainer idea that we could change the EU from the inside was and is bullshit. We had failed to do so for 40 years, I don't see what another 40 years would have changed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Patrick said:

    On topic: I find the thread header cartoon is a lazy lefty arrogant wankfest. The liberal consensus has been failing for a long time. Failing to deal with the realities of globalisation and the impact on ordinary people's lives. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, 5 Star, AfD, etc are all reactions to a 'settled' political coziness that hasn't worked for many , many voters. Voters who have frankly had enough.
    Portraying Trump and the whole political phenomemon across the developed world as 'childish' is itself profoundly childish. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity. It's time we tried something different. Something that ordinary voters can feel connected to.
    So FUCK YOU helen Cochrane and Nicholas Leonard.

    What an extreme reaction to an amusing cartoon. Trump does tweet a lot, that's a defining attribute of the way he has so far done business.
    I think @Patrick got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning!

    I'm willing to give Trump the benefit of the doubt, but it's clear that his major early agenda will be domestic, looking to shore up jobs in the US. He's also got every right to be upset with those in NATO who don't meet the commitment they signed up for. My one concern is for the F35 program which is providing the planes for the new UK carriers.

    Oh, and the media will always take the piss out of politicians, that's their job and it's a good sign of healthy democracy. Trump's going to have to get used to Alec Baldwin's mug every Saturday night for the next four years. Satirists will double down if they get a reaction.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=2V8TO6y0IR4
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
    Fair enough as a viewpoint. I would also point out that the break up of the EU would not be without consequences and I guess many of those would impact negatively on us but, as I realise that plenty of Leavers aren't just Leavers, but are redraw, via sturm and drang, the geopolitical map of Europe over the next 20-50 years-ers, then I suppose this is all part of the master plan.
    Ireland must come into the equation of re-alligning her position re Europe
    Although as the Irish support Euro membership something like 4-1, I wouldn't expect anything to happen rapidly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective
    On that basis, the rise of nationalist parties in Europe in the 1930s was in our interest as it threatened the stability of Germany, etc.
    Hitler wanted a united Europe, just under his leadership
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    MaxPB said:

    JonathanD said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    I imagine that the brexiteers have realised with horror that the EU is now just Greater Germany and the UK has been reduced to a small island off it's coast. As Donald Trump said in Goves interview, Merkel is the most powerful person in Europe. 
    That was true whether or not we left. The fact dawned on most leavers a long time ago which is why many voted to leave. The remainer idea that we could change the EU from the inside was and is bullshit. We had failed to do so for 40 years, I don't see what another 40 years would have changed.
    Perhaps Remainers are just content to have their countries affairs run from the Bundestag ?
  • Patrick said:

    On topic: I find the thread header cartoon is a lazy lefty arrogant wankfest. The liberal consensus has been failing for a long time. Failing to deal with the realities of globalisation and the impact on ordinary people's lives. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, 5 Star, AfD, etc are all reactions to a 'settled' political coziness that hasn't worked for many , many voters. Voters who have frankly had enough.
    Portraying Trump and the whole political phenomemon across the developed world as 'childish' is itself profoundly childish. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity. It's time we tried something different. Something that ordinary voters can feel connected to.
    So FUCK YOU helen Cochrane and Nicholas Leonard.

    The first snowflake of the day.
    It is January I suppose.
    I always imagined a snowflake as being someone who can't take a challenge. Who won't stick two fingers in the air when confronted with something they find distasteful but instead asks for 'safe spaces' or seeks to close down a conversation. Maybe you confuse dislike with a desire to avoid. I'm entirely happy to be vocal in my beliefs and to defend them.

  • rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
    Fair enough as a viewpoint. I would also point out that the break up of the EU would not be without consequences and I guess many of those would impact negatively on us but, as I realise that plenty of Leavers aren't just Leavers, but are redraw, via sturm and drang, the geopolitical map of Europe over the next 20-50 years-ers, then I suppose this is all part of the master plan.
    Ireland must come into the equation of re-alligning her position re Europe
    Although as the Irish support Euro membership something like 4-1, I wouldn't expect anything to happen rapidly.
    Absolutely - I do think the EU will be a very different place, even if it exists, in 10 - 15 years
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.
    If you thought Blair was Bush's 'poodle' and were embarrassed by the UK's humiliation.

    You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet!
    May made clear she would not be Trump's poodle, the relationship will be businesslike but certainly less close than Blair Clinton or Blair Bush or Cameron Obama. Farage is Trump's poodle

    Farage is not alone - he is symptomatic of the anti-EU right's embrace of Trump; as thumbs up Michael Gove is currently demonstrating.

    Gove also went to Hillary rallies, unlike Farage
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

    A strong, united EU will look to punish the UK
    A strong, united EU would have nothing to fear from the UK. It's a weak, scared EU that would seek to punish us.

    The question, taking a longer term view, is what is the best situation for the UK, and what policies are likely to achieve that.

    I would argue that a peaceful, prosperous Europe would benefit us. It would be a market for our products and would be a natural ally to us. That may or may not involve the EU, but I think the idea that the collapse of the EU would have no negative consequences for the UK (even if just a dramatic increase in the influence of Russia) is naive.
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
    Fair enough as a viewpoint. I would also point out that the break up of the EU would not be without consequences and I guess many of those would impact negatively on us but, as I realise that plenty of Leavers aren't just Leavers, but are redraw, via sturm and drang, the geopolitical map of Europe over the next 20-50 years-ers, then I suppose this is all part of the master plan.
    Ireland must come into the equation of re-alligning her position re Europe
    Although as the Irish support Euro membership something like 4-1, I wouldn't expect anything to happen rapidly.
    Absolutely - I do think the EU will be a very different place, even if it exists, in 10 - 15 years
    There is every reason to believe that might be the case whether we stay or go. The main tipping points are not materially affected by our membership (Italy, Greece, lack of transfer union, immigration, terrorism, open borders etc)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015
    MaxPB said:

    glw said:

    glw said:

    I have to say that it's quite amusing to see Remainers so in favour of NATO now, when in the past they have been so dismissive of it and claimed that it was the EU that kept the peace.

    Any examples, or are you just making that up?

    Why would I make it up? It's come up many times on here both before and after the referendum, that it was the EU and not NATO that kept the peace in Europe since WW II. Now that Trump is seen to have criticised NATO everyone is now all in favour of NATO.
    You can count the number of Brexiteers opposed to NATO on the fingers of one hand.

    The equivalence is often made between supporting withdrawal from the EU and the UN/NATO/WTO, and other international organisations, but there isn't one and we don't.
    People fail to make the distinction between leaving a political union which has not been favourable to our nation over the last 10 years and a military alliance that has helped keep relations with the USSR and latterly Russia in relative peace. I wonder what they could gain out of doing that.
    The difference is that the EU presumes to legislate for us.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Patrick said:

    On topic: I find the thread header cartoon is a lazy lefty arrogant wankfest. The liberal consensus has been failing for a long time. Failing to deal with the realities of globalisation and the impact on ordinary people's lives. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, 5 Star, AfD, etc are all reactions to a 'settled' political coziness that hasn't worked for many , many voters. Voters who have frankly had enough.
    Portraying Trump and the whole political phenomemon across the developed world as 'childish' is itself profoundly childish. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity. It's time we tried something different. Something that ordinary voters can feel connected to.
    So FUCK YOU helen Cochrane and Nicholas Leonard.

    The first snowflake of the day.
    It is January I suppose.
    As an aside, an acquaintance of mine works for a company called Snowflake, and I was amused to see a newspaper headline that was something like: "MP meets snowflake"
  • rcs1000 said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    1. I hope @SeanT took out his five year fixed mortgage.

    2. I wish I was a psychologist because I could then identify more formally the phenomenon whereby Leavers, who after all have told us all they want "is a common market" a la 1975, now wish harm and failure on the EU.

    Because the EU isn't a common market, it is a political organisation which, to be quite frank, is not friendly towards us.
    We don't want friends, we want beneficial geopolitical relations. The EU was onesuch.

    But I am also struggling to follow the logic whereby a weak, divided EU somehow, in its weakness, decides to further disadvantage itself (and of course "the EU" is, rather, 27 individual countries) by rolling over on behalf of the UK. Much more likely is that they will play harder ball.
    If the EU we're to lose another major nation would we not ally ourselves with them and seek a common resolution? If the EU broke up would we not seek trading and other partnerships with Germany, France or the rest of Northern Europe?

    My point is that dealing with 4 or 5 similarly sized individual nations in Europe is favourable to the UK. That would require a break up of the EU, something that would not bother me in the slightest.
    Fair enough as a viewpoint. I would also point out that the break up of the EU would not be without consequences and I guess many of those would impact negatively on us but, as I realise that plenty of Leavers aren't just Leavers, but are redraw, via sturm and drang, the geopolitical map of Europe over the next 20-50 years-ers, then I suppose this is all part of the master plan.
    Ireland must come into the equation of re-alligning her position re Europe
    Although as the Irish support Euro membership something like 4-1, I wouldn't expect anything to happen rapidly.
    Absolutely - I do think the EU will be a very different place, even if it exists, in 10 - 15 years
    There is every reason to believe that might be the case whether we stay or go. The main tipping points are not materially affected by our membership (Italy, Greece, lack of transfer union, immigration, terrorism, open borders etc)
    Agreed - we would not have had the influence to shape outcomes which is why now is the time to leave completely and wish them well
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2017
    I think @Patrick got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning!

    Maybe. Maybe I'm just feeling emboldened by the excellent run of recent political events. Those of us with an instinctive distrust of authoritarian controlling political elites and their contempt for Joe Average have experienced a spiritual liberation. The fear and horror liberal lefties are feeling these days is what the rest of us have been feeling for 40 years. Maybe I'll a thousand 'Deplorable Me' t-shirts printed up. They'd sell well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Patrick said:

    Roger said:

    Patrick said:

    Seems the new POTUS is going to be a Brexit supporter:
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-15/

    God help us! That man's going to be poison
    If you are a left liberal establishment crony - then yes.
    If you think the EU is an undemocratic superstate wannabe and that it's apparent desire to damage a member state that has democratically voted to do its own thing is a malign act - then no. It looks like in future we'll be a bit closer to the USA and a bit further from the EU. Good.

    Yep, the anti-EU right's new strategy for the UK is to prostrate itself at the feet of a man who has proved himself to be entirely untrustworthy time and again, and whose first instinct is towards protectionism at a time when the UK desperately needs free trade and stability in Europe. The look in Gove's eyes in that photo of him with the President-elect is priceless.

    The UK does not need stability in Europe ideally it wants division in Europe and the rise of anti EU nationalism from a purely selfish, short term perspective

    Can you explain how instability and division in our single biggest export market benefits the UK?

    A strong, united EU will look to punish the UK
    A strong, united EU would have nothing to fear from the UK. It's a weak, scared EU that would seek to punish us.

    The question, taking a longer term view, is what is the best situation for the UK, and what policies are likely to achieve that.

    I would argue that a peaceful, prosperous Europe would benefit us. It would be a market for our products and would be a natural ally to us. That may or may not involve the EU, but I think the idea that the collapse of the EU would have no negative consequences for the UK (even if just a dramatic increase in the influence of Russia) is naive.
    If France elected Le Pen and Germany the Afd Europe would take a pro BREXIT line and the era of EU federalism would end
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited January 2017
    We're no longer an impediment to further integration, particularly within the EZ. I can't believe the arch-federalists are anything but delighted that the UK is no longer going to be a fully paid-up member of the awkward squad.

    In terms of Ireland, you'd have to work hard to find a country that's benefited more from EU membership. They've almost weaned themselves of the UK's economic tit.

    Their risks are really around the content of any future treaty (we talked about corporate tax harmonisation a couple of days ago). Post Lisbon and all the ensuing shenanigans there has been little appetite for a new treaty - I wonder if that will change post-Brexit?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited January 2017
    Patrick said:

    Patrick said:

    On topic: I find the thread header cartoon is a lazy lefty arrogant wankfest. The liberal consensus has been failing for a long time. Failing to deal with the realities of globalisation and the impact on ordinary people's lives. Brexit, Trump, Le Pen, 5 Star, AfD, etc are all reactions to a 'settled' political coziness that hasn't worked for many , many voters. Voters who have frankly had enough.
    Portraying Trump and the whole political phenomemon across the developed world as 'childish' is itself profoundly childish. Remember Einstein's definition of insanity. It's time we tried something different. Something that ordinary voters can feel connected to.
    So FUCK YOU helen Cochrane and Nicholas Leonard.

    The first snowflake of the day.
    It is January I suppose.
    I always imagined a snowflake as being someone who can't take a challenge. Who won't stick two fingers in the air when confronted with something they find distasteful but instead asks for 'safe spaces' or seeks to close down a conversation. Maybe you confuse dislike with a desire to avoid. I'm entirely happy to be vocal in my beliefs and to defend them.

    Opinions about a definition will differ.
    Someone whining about a mild cartoon does it for me.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Patrick said:

    I think @Patrick got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning!

    Maybe. Maybe I'm just feeling emboldened by the excellent run of recent political events. Those of us with an instinctive distrust of authoritarian controlling political elites and their contempt for Joe Average have experienced a spiritual liberation. The fear and horror liberal lefties are feeling these days is what the rest of us have been feeling for 40 years. Maybe I'll a thousand 'Deplorable Me' t-shirts printed up. They'd sell well.

    Ha, the Trump supporters were wearing "We Are The Deporables" t- shirts in the last few weeks of the campaign.

    You and I agree on most things, and I'm looking forward to the next few years as you are - but a sweary 9am rant at those who choose to contribute a piece to this site was probably the wrong side of the line.
This discussion has been closed.