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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Angels and Fools. Cyclefree on Trump’s latest Executive Order

“Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.”  Well, to judge by the commentary over the last 48 hours Trump is a fool – and a chaotic and illiberal one to boot.  Whatever the many issues with his latest Executive Order, it could just as easily be said that only a fool would rush in to opine.  But at the risk of looking foolish, one criticism of the Trump approach is that it looks at the issue from the wrong end.  The risk of terrorism is not the primary problem and, paradoxically, a policy which appears rather crudely to discriminate on the basis of religion / birth place lacks effective discrimination, if its stated purpose really were to minimise the risk of terror (why no ban on Saudi nationals, for instance?  Saudis were, after all, rather more prominent in the most deadly act of terror in the US than Syrians.)

Read the full story here

Stark_Dawning

What's happened to the theory that the campaign was just an affectation and Donald will govern as New York liberal?

Gallowgate

2nd like Newcastle United.

MattW

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

edmundintokyo

"Critically, a policy such as Trump’s latest provides so much basis for criticism – that it may be unconstitutional, that it may well be ineffective, that it is illiberal, that it is immoral, that it will dismay America’s friends and embolden her enemies, that it could be counter-productive by providing another reason for the young to be recruited to violence, that it stands in sharp contrast to the best of American values – that what risks being lost is any chance to have a thoughtful and intelligent discussion about this most sensitive of topics. The challenges which the growth of Islamic communities in the West pose to Western societies, particularly a time when Islam is and has been since at least 1979 subject to extreme and fundamentalist winds of change, will still be there long after Trump’s Executive Order has been modified or overturned. "

Feature not bug. The idea is that everybody critcises him so that when there's an Islam-related war or terrorist attack he can appear vindicated and they are temporarily cowed, clearing the way for a power grab.

The charge his critics have to make stick is incompetence.

isam

SeanT said:

Fine piece. The only solution is an end to Muslim immigration and a gradual restriction of Islamic practises in the West, so the fundamentalists leave.

That's the optimum solution (barring the Black Swan of Islamic Enlightenment). The baseline solution is race war and deportations. Let's try and avoid that.

Have you read that book yet???

ydoethur

Is this by Cyclefree or TSE?

I'm assuming Cyclefree from the style and the header but the signature seems wrong.

TheScreamingEagles

ydoethur said:

Is this by Cyclefree or TSE?

I'm assuming Cyclefree from the style and the header but the signature seems wrong.

Cyclefree wrote this.

I used the wrong template when publishing this piece, you can tell I published this thread on my mobile.

isam

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

ydoethur said:

Is this by Cyclefree or TSE?

I'm assuming Cyclefree from the style and the header but the signature seems wrong.

Cyclefree wrote this.

I used the wrong template when publishing this piece, you can tell I published this thread on my mobile.

Fair enough, that's a reasonable excuse.

I assumed it wasn't yours from the lack of Star Trek puns

FrancisUrquhart

England bowled very well here.

another_richard

To highlight Labour's problems within London itself.

The highest 21 constituencies for signatories are Labour

Hornsey
Tottenham
Walthamstow
Hackney N
Hackney S
Islington S
Islington N
Poplar
Holborn
Hampstead
Ealing C
Tooting
Streatham
Dulwich
Vauxhall
Bermondsey
Peckham
Deptford
Lewisham W
Greenwich
Hammersmith

as is the lowest, Dagenham, and five others (Barking, Edmonton, Feltham, Erith and Hayes) in the bottom ten.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/davieclegg/status/825721688004427776

dixiedean

Gallowgate said:

2nd like Newcastle United.

Just behind Oxford

felix

another_richard said:

To highlight Labour's problems within London itself.

The highest 21 constituencies for signatories are Labour

Hornsey
Tottenham
Walthamstow
Hackney N
Hackney S
Islington S
Islington N
Poplar
Holborn
Hampstead
Ealing C
Tooting
Streatham
Dulwich
Vauxhall
Bermondsey
Peckham
Deptford
Lewisham W
Greenwich
Hammersmith

as is the lowest, Dagenham, and five others (Barking, Edmonton, Feltham, Erith and Hayes) in the bottom ten.

I guess it's all down to the quality of the broadband and the luvvies are mostly from areas where it's very good

Jobabob

another_richard said:

To highlight Labour's problems within London itself.

The highest 21 constituencies for signatories are Labour

Hornsey
Tottenham
Walthamstow
Hackney N
Hackney S
Islington S
Islington N
Poplar
Holborn
Hampstead
Ealing C
Tooting
Streatham
Dulwich
Vauxhall
Bermondsey
Peckham
Deptford
Lewisham W
Greenwich
Hammersmith

as is the lowest, Dagenham, and five others (Barking, Edmonton, Feltham, Erith and Hayes) in the bottom ten.

So what? The seats you cite may very well exhibit among the highest levels of education in the country too. Most likely (I have not checked) there is a correlation between being bright and being deeply uncomfortable with the idea of Trumpton waving his small hands around The Mall.

felix

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/davieclegg/status/825721688004427776

Disagree. The need to engage is more important than the desire to make a point in this case.

ydoethur

FrancisUrquhart said:

England bowled very well here.

What an over from Jordan - but also Ali 1-20, very good figures against the world's best players of spin.

Scott_P

felix said:

Disagree. The need to engage is more important than the desire to make a point in this case.

That's the problem

"Engage" at this point means beg on our knees for trade scraps because we walked away from the biggest market in the World

SandyRentool

Gallowgate said:

2nd like Newcastle United.

We were definitely second yesterday!

John_M

Good Afternoon all. Hail Cyclefree, God-Empress of PB for another fine and eloquent piece.

Slightly apropos, I've been watching 'A Man for All Seasons', and reading along with the screenplay, which is just wonderful.

More died for his beliefs, when a more morally flexible man might have lived (though that flexibility didn't do Cromwell much good). Of course, More was also a fierce persecutor of Lutheranism, which the film elides, doubtless for brevity and to avoid obscuring the point.

More's death is likely incomprehensible to his descendants, some 500-odd years later.

Also slightly apropos, NATO's post-Kennedy doctrine was based on 'flexible response'. This assumed that a Soviet invasion of NATO countries would be met by gradually escalating countermeasures, including battlefield and (later) tactical nukes, with the idea that the USSR would also escalate in a similar way.

Post Cold War, it was chilling to realise that Soviet doctrine actually envisaged a full-on strategic launch, immediately after the first recourse to nuclear weapons.

We're in a very dangerous period where we in the West are similarly unable to grasp or comprehend that Salafism is likely (at least in part, I temporise) a reaction to Western culture which appears to value nothing but self-indulgence, individualism and accruing ever more consumer crap.

Ramble over .

Jobabob

Stark_Dawning said:

What's happened to the theory that the campaign was just an affectation and Donald will govern as New York liberal?

Stark_Dawning said:

What's happened to the theory that the campaign was just an affectation and Donald will govern as New York liberal?

The PB Loons have forgotten that one. The collective amnesia is similar to that exhibited by the PB Globalising Brexiteers who assured there was no way we'd leave the Single Market.

HYUFD

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

surbiton

"The challenges which the growth of Islamic communities in the West pose to Western societies, particularly a time when Islam is and has been since at least 1979 subject to extreme and fundamentalist winds of change, will still be there long after Trump’s Executive Order has been modified or overturned"

Cyclefree got the year wrong. 1932 was when the Wahabis got in, thanks to the British short-sightedness as usual. Since that date using the Hajj , the Saudis started to export Wahabism. The oil price increase greatly helped later.

I don't understand what the West has about Iran that 1979 is used. Here is a "liberal" state [ in Islamic terms ] where theological discussion is permitted unlike in Saudi Arabia. Artists are not killed or their hands cut off , if they draw pictures of Mohammad or Ali, for example.

I think just because the Saudis kept Western industry lubricated that they have been given a pass.

A non-Muslim can at least visit Qom. He cannot visit Makkah.

rkrkrk

"Fundamentalist Islam does pose a threat to Western liberal democracies. Pretending that this is not so is foolish."

What is the threat? That the UK or USA will become fundamentalist Islamic countries?
That seems absurd. We are never going to vote to become an Islamic theocracy.

That we will be attacked by fundamentalist terrorists?
This is undoubtedly true - but I think we have to rely on our security services, with the collaboration of the Muslim community, to do their jobs.

The UK's system of laws, democracy, free speech, habeus corpus etc. are not going to be destroyed by some pathetic terrorist groups from the Middle East who think the world is going to become an Islamic caliphate.

The risk is that we will dismantle our protections and rights because we are scared. We shouldn't be so scared. Democracy is better and we will win.

SandyRentool

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

You start 'em, I'll sign 'em.

Jobabob

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

While I agree with you that the world would be a better and easier place to live in if people stopped believing in fairy stories about blokes who can turn water into a nice Barolo and orgies with 17 virgins in heaven, your central contention that all liberals are atheists is demonstrably false (alas).

ydoethur

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

surbiton

Shouldn't Trump use his thumb for his signature. Lot easier than drawing those spikes.

MarkHopkins

Scott_P said:

felix said:

Disagree. The need to engage is more important than the desire to make a point in this case.

That's the problem

"Engage" at this point means beg on our knees for trade scraps because we walked away from the biggest market in the World

Biggest "market"? The one which we buy more from, than we sell to? That one?

isam

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Well yes, skin colour is obv not an issue, as I tried to point out by referencing the mixed marriage statistics. The evidence that black and white people get on is there every time you see someone of mixed heritage/mixed race whatever the right term for it is. Religion is the key, the fact that most muslims are not white doesn't really make any difference except to white supremacists

FrancisUrquhart

ydoethur said:

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

No. Ali already has more than enough on his plate batting and bowling ...and for test cricket he needs to improve his bowling.

williamglenn

MattW said:

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

This is the full link in that tweet:

https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/30681883/verify?token=4oH4SDLpbXeV52I1UPUp

If you click on the bare petition link it's fine:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928

surbiton

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Why don't you start one. You are allowed to, you know.

glw

HYUFD said:

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Personally I disliked May meeting Erdogan far more than her meeting Trump. Trump will be held in check by the law and Congress, Erdogan not so much.

nunu

another_richard said:

To highlight Labour's problems within London itself.

The highest 21 constituencies for signatories are Labour

Hornsey
Tottenham
Walthamstow
Hackney N
Hackney S
Islington S
Islington N
Poplar
Holborn
Hampstead
Ealing C
Tooting
Streatham
Dulwich
Vauxhall
Bermondsey
Peckham
Deptford
Lewisham W
Greenwich
Hammersmith

as is the lowest, Dagenham, and five others (Barking, Edmonton, Feltham, Erith and Hayes) in the bottom ten.

Most of those seats have huge working class populations.

FrancisUrquhart

glw said:

HYUFD said:

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Personally I disliked May meeting Erdogan far more than her meeting Trump. Trump will be held in check by the law and Congress, Erdogan not so much.

While trump calls journalists fake, erdogan locks them up. While people in US tweet their disapproval of trump, erdogan shuts off access to social media...

glw

surbiton said:

I don't understand what the West has about Iran that 1979 is used. Here is a "liberal" state [ in Islamic terms ] where theological discussion is permitted unlike in Saudi Arabia. Artists are not killed or their hands cut off , if they draw pictures of Mohammad or Ali, for example.

Liberal in Islamic terms means they hang gay men by their neck from cranes. If that's what liberal Islam is like you can keep it.

another_richard

Jobabob said:

another_richard said:

To highlight Labour's problems within London itself.

The highest 21 constituencies for signatories are Labour

Hornsey
Tottenham
Walthamstow
Hackney N
Hackney S
Islington S
Islington N
Poplar
Holborn
Hampstead
Ealing C
Tooting
Streatham
Dulwich
Vauxhall
Bermondsey
Peckham
Deptford
Lewisham W
Greenwich
Hammersmith

as is the lowest, Dagenham, and five others (Barking, Edmonton, Feltham, Erith and Hayes) in the bottom ten.

So what? The seats you cite may very well exhibit among the highest levels of education in the country too. Most likely (I have not checked) there is a correlation between being bright and being deeply uncomfortable with the idea of Trumpton waving his small hands around The Mall.

The seats least opposed to Trump are Labour as well.

David_Evershed

Trump says that he is most concerned about people from states where the Sharia religion is dominant rather than the Sunni religion.

This means Saudi Arabia citizens are exempt from the extra vetting procedures whilst Iranian and Iraqi visitors are not exempt as they have Sharia majorities.

MarkHopkins

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

This is the full link in that tweet:

https://petition.parliament.uk/signatures/30681883/verify?token=4oH4SDLpbXeV52I1UPUp

If you click on the bare petition link it's fine:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928

And people clicking on the "session" link will keep refreshing it, so that it does not expire.

Ishmael_Z

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

I only have to look at, say, Paris, Paris, Rotherham, Nice or New York to have a very strong understanding of the power of religion. It's very GK Chesterton to ascribe atheism to ennui and anomie rather than - correctly - to common sense.

At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world, where sophisticated clerics describe the faith as a metaphor, and nobody has been judicially burned alive for ages. We must just hope this happens sooner rather than later.

MattW

dr_spyn said:

The petition appears to have a widespread of signatures - South Africa, South Sandwich Islands.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928.json

Do these get filtered when Parliament do their assessment?

I think we have been here before...

surbiton

ydoethur said:

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

Is Moeen Ali or Adil Rashid an immigrant ? If yes, then 99% of the US, Australia, NZ etc. are immigrants ?

felix

Jobabob said:

another_richard said:

To highlight Labour's problems within London itself.

The highest 21 constituencies for signatories are Labour

Hornsey
Tottenham
Walthamstow
Hackney N
Hackney S
Islington S
Islington N
Poplar
Holborn
Hampstead
Ealing C
Tooting
Streatham
Dulwich
Vauxhall
Bermondsey
Peckham
Deptford
Lewisham W
Greenwich
Hammersmith

as is the lowest, Dagenham, and five others (Barking, Edmonton, Feltham, Erith and Hayes) in the bottom ten.

So what? The seats you cite may very well exhibit among the highest levels of education in the country too. Most likely (I have not checked) there is a correlation between being bright and being deeply uncomfortable with the idea of Trumpton waving his small hands around The Mall.

Oh dear - what is it with left-wingers and their hostility to the lower orders.

ydoethur

FrancisUrquhart said:

ydoethur said:

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

No. Ali already has more than enough on his plate batting and bowling ...and for test cricket he needs to improve his bowling.

Disagree, he should justify his place as a batsman.

But you could say that of any player. Cook is out. Anderson and Broad are too old. Bairstow, Stokes and Ali all have multiple roles. Whoever bats at 2 and 4 will be inexperienced as will the 3rd seamer (presumably Woakes, also an all rounder) and possibly Rashid. Root has limited captaincy experience and seem so to be struggling already as vc batting at three.

Make Ali captain, bat him at five and make Rashid the main spinner so he only bowls in a holding role for a few overs? It could work.

It should have been James Taylor. Now that was a sad loss, mellowed only by the fact that it wasn't a tragic one.

tlg86

David_Evershed said:

Trump says that he is most concerned about people from states where the Sharia religion is dominant rather than the Sunni religion.

This means Saudi Arabia citizens are exempt from the extra vetting procedures whilst Iranian and Iraqi visitors are not exempt as they have Sharia majorities.

Aren't ISIS Sunnis?

williamglenn

Has Farage spooked two Prime Ministers in a row into making colossal misjudgements?

Jobabob

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

As there are only children there (unless you are talking about the teachers?) there are no children of any religion there. Children are too young to be determined religious: unless an adult has indoctrinated them with fairy stories of lasses who have babies without having sex and kings who find a cot in the desert by following a star, they would never hold those views. What kid would believe someone could walk on water unless an irresponsible adult had brainwashed them into thinking so?

felix

Scott_P said:

felix said:

Disagree. The need to engage is more important than the desire to make a point in this case.

That's the problem

"Engage" at this point means beg on our knees for trade scraps because we walked away from the biggest market in the World

Oh grow up - you live in the world of twitter - in the real world hyperbole gets you nowhere.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/pa/status/825726976535166977

AlsoIndigo

rkrkrk said:

What is the threat? That the UK or USA will become fundamentalist Islamic countries?
That seems absurd. We are never going to vote to become an Islamic theocracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submission_(novel)

surbiton

Ishmael_Z said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

I only have to look at, say, Paris, Paris, Rotherham, Nice or New York to have a very strong understanding of the power of religion. It's very GK Chesterton to ascribe atheism to ennui and anomie rather than - correctly - to common sense.

At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world, where sophisticated clerics describe the faith as a metaphor, and nobody has been judicially burned alive for ages. We must just hope this happens sooner rather than later.

"At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world"

Correct.

Pulpstar

David_Evershed said:

Trump says that he is most concerned about people from states where the Sharia religion is dominant rather than the Sunni religion.

This means Saudi Arabia citizens are exempt from the extra vetting procedures whilst Iranian and Iraqi visitors are not exempt as they have Sharia majorities.

I have never heard of Sharia Islam.

surbiton

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/pa/status/825726976535166977

And ? What are we going to do if they say F O ?

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/cnn/status/825727451577872384

FrancisUrquhart

Oh england ....

felix

MarkHopkins said:

Scott_P said:

felix said:

Disagree. The need to engage is more important than the desire to make a point in this case.

That's the problem

"Engage" at this point means beg on our knees for trade scraps because we walked away from the biggest market in the World

Biggest "market"? The one which we buy more from, than we sell to? That one?

Try tweeting him - he might cutnpaste it - he certainly won't understand it.

Pulpstar

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/pa/status/825726976535166977

I thought it was a matter for the USA.

ydoethur

surbiton said:

ydoethur said:

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

Is Moeen Ali or Adil Rashid an immigrant ? If yes, then 99% of the US, Australia, NZ etc. are immigrants ?

Both were born in this country. Arguably though your point is correct in terms of the irony of Trump's policy (and you missed Israel off the list). There would be plenty of Native Americans who would agree.

Canada I believe is also now strongly encouraging immigration as they have lots of space to fill. Apparently anyone on a student visa gets the automatic right to remain for 7 years after matriculation. I'm told peopl from the Far East are flocking there to university.

FrancisUrquhart

ydoethur said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

ydoethur said:

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

No. Ali already has more than enough on his plate batting and bowling ...and for test cricket he needs to improve his bowling.

Disagree, he should justify his place as a batsman.

But you could say that of any player. Cook is out. Anderson and Broad are too old. Bairstow, Stokes and Ali all have multiple roles. Whoever bats at 2 and 4 will be inexperienced as will the 3rd seamer (presumably Woakes, also an all rounder) and possibly Rashid. Root has limited captaincy experience and seem so to be struggling already as vc batting at three.

Make Ali captain, bat him at five and make Rashid the main spinner so he only bowls in a holding role for a few overs? It could work.

It should have been James Taylor. Now that was a sad loss, mellowed only by the fact that it wasn't a tragic one.

Ali doesn't really have any captaincy experience either.

I am not convinced Ali can justify his place in the team as a primary batsman.

Scott_P

felix said:

in the real world hyperbole gets you nowhere.

There was no need for May to rush to Washington. She could have waited until she had a clearer, better, appreciation of how Trump intends to behave. Verify then trust. Instead the prime minister gambled and by doing so chumped herself. She didn’t have to seem quite so needy; she didn’t have to embrace a president as venal as he is absurd, as malignant as he is ignorant.

All of this was predictable and, indeed, predicted. Who could have guessed Trump would behave like this? Only people who spent any time at all paying any attention to what he said. America First? Up to a point. America disgraced? Undoubtedly. And, as Mrs May may now have reason to reflect, the lesson to be drawn from Trump’s business career is a simple one: caveat emptor. That’s doubly true of his political career. He is in the business of shaming America; May risks humiliating Britain.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-mays-embrace-donald-trump-humiliates-britain/

The_Taxman

I don't think it is the UK's place to lecture the US on what the POTUS does in terms of executive orders. Don't get me wrong I hate this reversion to politicians decreeing something and peoples lives/ jobs/ companies being ruined at a stroke of a pen. Maybe it has always been the case but it seems that Brexit and now Trump have rejuvenated extreme actions where people are no longer master of their destiny.

I do wonder what planet Jeremy Corbyn lives on firstly saying he is not going to oppose A50 in parliament then saying Trump should not have a state visit. You need allies in the world to assist in getting your countries agenda implemented across the western world. Corbyn seems to be advocating we upset the only country that can help us transition from the EU membership. I want to vote Labour at the next GE but I cannot vote for Corbyn, he seems to have no grasp of what to do so I am reconciled to vote Lib Dem partly out of protest and partly because I think Liberalism despite its detractors cries is much better than the authoritarianism that seems to have crept into the body politics of western countries of late.

Scott_P

surbiton said:

And ? What are we going to do if they say F O ?

We are guiding and leading Trump, right? Soft power, special relationship...

ydoethur

FrancisUrquhart said:

ydoethur said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

ydoethur said:

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

No. Ali already has more than enough on his plate batting and bowling ...and for test cricket he needs to improve his bowling.

Disagree, he should justify his place as a batsman.

But you could say that of any player. Cook is out. Anderson and Broad are too old. Bairstow, Stokes and Ali all have multiple roles. Whoever bats at 2 and 4 will be inexperienced as will the 3rd seamer (presumably Woakes, also an all rounder) and possibly Rashid. Root has limited captaincy experience and seem so to be struggling already as vc batting at three.

Make Ali captain, bat him at five and make Rashid the main spinner so he only bowls in a holding role for a few overs? It could work.

It should have been James Taylor. Now that was a sad loss, mellowed only by the fact that it wasn't a tragic one.

Ali doesn't really have any captaincy experience either.

I am not convinced Ali can justify his place in the team as a primary batsman.

He's got more than Root. He captained Worcestershire for half a season and did a good job. Think he also led England U19 although I could be wrong.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/lindayueh/status/825728351155417088

Ishmael_Z

Jobabob said:

Stark_Dawning said:

What's happened to the theory that the campaign was just an affectation and Donald will govern as New York liberal?

Stark_Dawning said:

What's happened to the theory that the campaign was just an affectation and Donald will govern as New York liberal?

The PB Loons have forgotten that one. The collective amnesia is similar to that exhibited by the PB Globalising Brexiteers who assured there was no way we'd leave the Single Market.

Can I suggest "poundstoretim" next time you feel a name-change coming on?

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Another interesting piece, Miss Cyclefree. Worth always remembering it's possible to jump too far in the other direction. It'd be intriguing to compare and contrast the outrage over Trump's foolhardy and unjust executive order on migrants to the reaction following political correctness and an unwillingness by authorities to tread into 'cultural sensitivities' leading to a prolonged delay (a decade, or so) into anything being done about the Rotherham disgrace.

We appear to have moved on (well... some have) from criticising those with genuine concerns over migration and social integration/cohesion as racist. It's important that we can have a proper, open and honest discussion about that. I do wonder if some will now (as Cameron tried to pair up Leave and Farage) cite Trump as the devilish associate of any who now express such views.

Incidentally, if/when there's more PB-sponsored polling, I'd suggest a comparison of public attitudes between the migration policies of Trump and Merkel. Could make for interesting reading.

Jobabob

another_richard said:

Jobabob said:

another_richard said:

To highlight Labour's problems within London itself.

The highest 21 constituencies for signatories are Labour

Hornsey
Tottenham
Walthamstow
Hackney N
Hackney S
Islington S
Islington N
Poplar
Holborn
Hampstead
Ealing C
Tooting
Streatham
Dulwich
Vauxhall
Bermondsey
Peckham
Deptford
Lewisham W
Greenwich
Hammersmith

as is the lowest, Dagenham, and five others (Barking, Edmonton, Feltham, Erith and Hayes) in the bottom ten.

So what? The seats you cite may very well exhibit among the highest levels of education in the country too. Most likely (I have not checked) there is a correlation between being bright and being deeply uncomfortable with the idea of Trumpton waving his small hands around The Mall.

The seats least opposed to Trump are Labour as well.

I don't doubt it - I was merely pointing out that discomfit at Trump seems to correlate with levels of education - and so it would seem.

dr_spyn

MattW said:

dr_spyn said:

The petition appears to have a widespread of signatures - South Africa, South Sandwich Islands.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/171928.json

Do these get filtered when Parliament do their assessment?

I think we have been here before...

Mr Punch and Duke of Wellington signing Chartist petition?

Scott_P

So May's failure to condemn the ban, lasted longer than some aspects of the ban...

surbiton

The_Taxman said:

I don't think it is the UK's place to lecture the US on what the POTUS does in terms of executive orders. Don't get me wrong I hate this reversion to politicians decreeing something and peoples lives/ jobs/ companies being ruined at a stroke of a pen. Maybe it has always been the case but it seems that Brexit and now Trump have rejuvenated extreme actions where people are no longer master of their destiny.

I do wonder what planet Jeremy Corbyn lives on firstly saying he is not going to oppose A50 in parliament then saying Trump should not have a state visit. You need allies in the world to assist in getting your countries agenda implemented across the western world. Corbyn seems to be advocating we upset the only country that can help us transition from the EU membership. I want to vote Labour at the next GE but I cannot vote for Corbyn, he seems to have no grasp of what to do so I am reconciled to vote Lib Dem partly out of protest and partly because I think Liberalism despite its detractors cries is much better than the authoritarianism that seems to have crept into the body politics of western countries of late.

I could have written that.

HYUFD

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Why don't you start one. You are allowed to, you know.

I have no interest in signing petitions against state visits by a Head of State, including Trump, demonstrate by all means but don't ban. However it is rather ironic that the biggest petition against a state visit by a Head of State is against a democratically elected leader rather than someone who is effectively a dictator!

Fysics_Teacher

FrancisUrquhart said:

glw said:

HYUFD said:

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Personally I disliked May meeting Erdogan far more than her meeting Trump. Trump will be held in check by the law and Congress, Erdogan not so much.

While trump calls journalists fake, erdogan locks them up. While people in US tweet their disapproval of trump, erdogan shuts off access to social media...

Erdogan can decide he's going to let three million refugees have a go at getting into Europe. We need him onside and he knows it.

nunu

WH: No mention of Jews on Holocaust Remembrance Day because others were killed too - http://CNNPolitics.com my God

Who's advising them? Ken Livingston?

matt

David_Evershed said:

Trump says that he is most concerned about people from states where the Sharia religion is dominant rather than the Sunni religion.

This means Saudi Arabia citizens are exempt from the extra vetting procedures whilst Iranian and Iraqi visitors are not exempt as they have Sharia majorities.

Shi'ite?

surbiton

SeanT said:

Ishmael_Z said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

I only have to look at, say, Paris, Paris, Rotherham, Nice or New York to have a very strong understanding of the power of religion. It's very GK Chesterton to ascribe atheism to ennui and anomie rather than - correctly - to common sense.

At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world, where sophisticated clerics describe the faith as a metaphor, and nobody has been judicially burned alive for ages. We must just hope this happens sooner rather than later.

No, I think you actually have to be religious - I am a believer - to grasp its power.

Otherwise yes I agree. At some stage Islam probably will Enlighten. But what if it is later rather than sooner? In 200 years rather than 20? 200 years seems more likely. And we are therefore insane to allow any more immigration into the West, from Islam, for the foreseeable.

Don't forget that Islam did have its enlightening age when the west was in the dark ages. The advances in mathematics, astronomy took place with Muslims.

MattW

MikeK said:

MattW said:

MikeK said:

https://twitter.com/SandraTXAS/status/825672301966397440
If I commented I might be banned!

That Twit seems to be taking a carefully misleading view of Sharia Law. It is not a monolith.

It is in Saudi Arabia and under Daesh it's all embracing down to the last comma.

Saudi Arabia represent under 2% of the Muslim population, and many there do not like the particular system.

Take the death penalty, alleged to be a feature of Sharia.

Under Sharia-based systems of various types, Djibouti abolished the death penalty in 1977, Algeria suspended the death penalty in 1993, Jordan last executed someone in 2006, Mauritania last executed someone in 1987 etc etc.

These are all members of the Arab league, and pretending that far more Muslim countries are uniformly evil medievalist bigots than is actually the case is not helping your argument.

If you are going to reject things out of hand because of stuff that used to be done, then you have to reject our tradition because the used to use ducking stools.

surbiton

ydoethur said:

surbiton said:

ydoethur said:

SeanT said:

isam said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

That is the key misunderstanding

Lord Lester and Roy Jenkins, the founding fathers of multiculturalism admitted it at the end of their lives. They just didn't get that people would continue to live as they did in their old countries.

To be fair, multiculturalism has worked, or did work, to a point. I wouldn't want to go back to the monocultural Britain of the 50s. The UK today is a more vivid and dynamic society in so many ways, thanks to immigration. We do better than most on integration. Afro-Caribbean crime is a problem, still, but we're handling it. My older daughter's primary school, 50% British white, the rest mixed, is a very happy place.

But it's a faith school. Christian. There are no Muslims there.

And it's Muslim immigration which has broken the multicultural model. We have imported a supremacist culture which HAS to believe it is superior to the host, and which is irked to the point of violence by the abundant evidence that this is decidedly not the case.

Chris Jordan is from the Caribbean. Moeen Ali of course...

Totally off topic, but does anyone else think it would be better to give the captaincy to Ali rather than Root?

Is Moeen Ali or Adil Rashid an immigrant ? If yes, then 99% of the US, Australia, NZ etc. are immigrants ?

Both were born in this country. Arguably though your point is correct in terms of the irony of Trump's policy (and you missed Israel off the list). There would be plenty of Native Americans who would agree.

Canada I believe is also now strongly encouraging immigration as they have lots of space to fill. Apparently anyone on a student visa gets the automatic right to remain for 7 years after matriculation. I'm told peopl from the Far East are flocking there to university.

Australia is not much different .

HYUFD

The_Taxman said:

I don't think it is the UK's place to lecture the US on what the POTUS does in terms of executive orders. Don't get me wrong I hate this reversion to politicians decreeing something and peoples lives/ jobs/ companies being ruined at a stroke of a pen. Maybe it has always been the case but it seems that Brexit and now Trump have rejuvenated extreme actions where people are no longer master of their destiny.

I do wonder what planet Jeremy Corbyn lives on firstly saying he is not going to oppose A50 in parliament then saying Trump should not have a state visit. You need allies in the world to assist in getting your countries agenda implemented across the western world. Corbyn seems to be advocating we upset the only country that can help us transition from the EU membership. I want to vote Labour at the next GE but I cannot vote for Corbyn, he seems to have no grasp of what to do so I am reconciled to vote Lib Dem partly out of protest and partly because I think Liberalism despite its detractors cries is much better than the authoritarianism that seems to have crept into the body politics of western countries of late.

Don't worry, Corbyn would have a state visit for Raul Castro instead!

Jobabob

HYUFD said:

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Why don't you start one. You are allowed to, you know.

I have no interest in signing petitions against state visits by a Head of State, including Trump, demonstrate by all means but don't ban. However it is rather ironic that the biggest petition against a state visit by a Head of State is against a democratically elected leader rather than someone who is effectively a dictator!

'Elected' by a clear minority of those who voted - tyranny of the minority in Trumpton's case I suppose.

Dromedary

David_Evershed said:

Trump says that he is most concerned about people from states where the Sharia religion is dominant rather than the Sunni religion.

This means Saudi Arabia citizens are exempt from the extra vetting procedures whilst Iranian and Iraqi visitors are not exempt as they have Sharia majorities.

@David_Evershed - A word to the wise: you are mixing things up awfully badly here. Some pointers:

* sharia is Islamic religious law,
* the two main denominations of Islam are Sunni (most Arab Muslims follow this, as do the vast majority of Muslims in Pakistan, Indonesia. etc.) and Shia (big in Iraq, also in Bahrain - but not in the ruling elite there - and in the non-Arab countries Iran and Azerbaijan, and observed by minorities in Lebanon, Kuwait, and non-Arab Turkey and Pakistan)
* the large majority of Muslims are Sunni
* both Sunni and Shia have branches
* by far the biggest branch of Shia is the Twelvers; next are the Ismailis, led by the Aga Khan
* there is a minority branch of Sunni called Salafism, for which Wahhabism is a near-synonym
* Daesh (ISIS), Al-Qaeda and the Saudi regime are all Salafist
* some Salafists believe that all Shiites should be killed

* Donald Trump does business in

- Turkey (non-Arab, Sunni)
- Egypt (Arab, Sunni)
- Saudi (Salafist)
- Azerbaijan (Shia)

* Donald Trump does not do much business in the seven countries to which the ban applies

YBarddCwsc

surbiton said:

SeanT said:

Ishmael_Z said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

I only have to look at, say, Paris, Paris, Rotherham, Nice or New York to have a very strong understanding of the power of religion. It's very GK Chesterton to ascribe atheism to ennui and anomie rather than - correctly - to common sense.

At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world, where sophisticated clerics describe the faith as a metaphor, and nobody has been judicially burned alive for ages. We must just hope this happens sooner rather than later.

No, I think you actually have to be religious - I am a believer - to grasp its power.

Otherwise yes I agree. At some stage Islam probably will Enlighten. But what if it is later rather than sooner? In 200 years rather than 20? 200 years seems more likely. And we are therefore insane to allow any more immigration into the West, from Islam, for the foreseeable.

Don't forget that Islam did have its enlightening age when the west was in the dark ages. The advances in mathematics, astronomy took place with Muslims.

If it was so advanced, how come it fell behind?

Why did a technologically superior civilisation lose its commanding lead?

(This question is often posed in the writings of the only Islamic winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics. He gives no good answer, but I think the answer is clear).

Jobabob

Ishmael_Z said:

Jobabob said:

Stark_Dawning said:

What's happened to the theory that the campaign was just an affectation and Donald will govern as New York liberal?

Stark_Dawning said:

What's happened to the theory that the campaign was just an affectation and Donald will govern as New York liberal?

The PB Loons have forgotten that one. The collective amnesia is similar to that exhibited by the PB Globalising Brexiteers who assured there was no way we'd leave the Single Market.

Can I suggest "poundstoretim" next time you feel a name-change coming on?

You can suggest what you like, but as it has no obvious scouting theme I feel it's always going to be an outsider!

OldKingCole

SeanT said:

surbiton said:

Ishmael_Z said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

I only have to look at, say, Paris, Paris, Rotherham, Nice or New York to have a very strong understanding of the power of religion. It's very GK Chesterton to ascribe atheism to ennui and anomie rather than - correctly - to common sense.

At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world, where sophisticated clerics describe the faith as a metaphor, and nobody has been judicially burned alive for ages. We must just hope this happens sooner rather than later.

"At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world"

Correct.

Can you give us an ETA on Islamic Enlightenment? Next Tuesday? 2029? When can we expect this?

Roughly 600 years after the Christian one. Their eruption of war between Shia and Sunni was about 1500 years after the foundation of the religion (I know Ali died long time before that) and the Reformation started about 1500CE.
\Of course scholars with knowledge of the Orthodox may disagree, but is the hostility between the Eastern & Western Churches greater or less than that between Catholic and Protestant?

JosiasJessop

FrancisUrquhart said:

glw said:

HYUFD said:

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Personally I disliked May meeting Erdogan far more than her meeting Trump. Trump will be held in check by the law and Congress, Erdogan not so much.

While trump calls journalists fake, erdogan locks them up. While people in US tweet their disapproval of trump, erdogan shuts off access to social media...

Erdogan's doing exactly what Putin did a few years before; it seems part of the modern dictator's guide to dictating. As examples: control of the traditional media; creation of real and imagined enemies; a 'cleansing' of the civil service; Internet controls and troll armies; promoting your power with foreign adventures, and more.

IMO neither Putin or Erdogan started out as they've become. I'm not sure they quite intended to in either case.

As I said immediately after his election, there are various warning signs to be watched with Trump. It'd very easy for him to try to set off down a similar route. After all, it's been fairly successful for them. Hopefully the American constitution can withstand him *if* he tries it.

Stark_Dawning

williamglenn said:

Has Farage spooked two Prime Ministers in a row into making colossal misjudgements?

Yes.The power that man wields over the Tory party is extraordinary. It must be because the more vocable and excitable wing of Toryism - the part an earnestly pragmatic leadership will always fear - has more affinity with UKIP and its heady populism and quick fixes. I think there's an element of envy too: 'Look at that Nigel, saying the things we've always wanted to say but never been allowed. If only we could be like him.' Nigel is the promised land for restless Tories. That was always going to cause tensions.

surbiton

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/lindayueh/status/825728351155417088

Falling apart.

Morris_Dancer

King Cole, AD. Common Era is revisionist bullshit to slap a politically correct label on the Christian calendar.

Mr. Cwsc, China and Japan also had periods when they were relatively very advanced, only to fall behind (isolationism for fear of foreign influence could be the reason).

The latter day Ottoman Empire had many Christian bureaucrats, but some Muslims felt this was unfair. Policy changes meant competent non-Muslim civil servants were replaced by incompetent or less competent Muslims, to the detriment of the Empire (not unlike Ferrari sometimes stuffing its F1 team with Italians).

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/825731929420992513

Yorkcity

Theresa May should have taken advice from Alex Salmon on his dealings with Donald Trump.

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/davieclegg/status/825721688004427776

Also Ruth Davidson from the limited amount I see is very impressive.

David_Evershed

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/pa/status/825726976535166977

To find out how to apply it in the UK?

Mortimer

Jobabob said:

HYUFD said:

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Why don't you start one. You are allowed to, you know.

I have no interest in signing petitions against state visits by a Head of State, including Trump, demonstrate by all means but don't ban. However it is rather ironic that the biggest petition against a state visit by a Head of State is against a democratically elected leader rather than someone who is effectively a dictator!

'Elected' by a clear minority of those who voted - tyranny of the minority in Trumpton's case I suppose.

Elected according to the rules of the election.

John_M

YBarddCwsc said:

surbiton said:

SeanT said:

Ishmael_Z said:

SeanT said:

And, yes, the key problem in liberal western circles is their feeble understanding of the power of religion. The solace of faith. Liberal lefties are all helpless, decomposing atheists. They think everyone else feels the same anomie and ennui as them, or will come to feel it, once they've bought enough 3D TV's

THEY WON'T

I only have to look at, say, Paris, Paris, Rotherham, Nice or New York to have a very strong understanding of the power of religion. It's very GK Chesterton to ascribe atheism to ennui and anomie rather than - correctly - to common sense.

At some stage Islam will grow out of itself in the same way Christianity has in the first world, where sophisticated clerics describe the faith as a metaphor, and nobody has been judicially burned alive for ages. We must just hope this happens sooner rather than later.

No, I think you actually have to be religious - I am a believer - to grasp its power.

Otherwise yes I agree. At some stage Islam probably will Enlighten. But what if it is later rather than sooner? In 200 years rather than 20? 200 years seems more likely. And we are therefore insane to allow any more immigration into the West, from Islam, for the foreseeable.

Don't forget that Islam did have its enlightening age when the west was in the dark ages. The advances in mathematics, astronomy took place with Muslims.

If it was so advanced, how come it fell behind?

Why did a technologically superior civilisation lose its commanding lead?

(This question is often posed in the writings of the only Islamic winner of the Nobel Prize for Physics. He gives no good answer, but I think the answer is clear).

Genghis Khan.

*edit* I appreciate that this doesn't account for the fall of Andalusia.

surbiton

David_Evershed said:

Trump says that he is most concerned about people from states where the Sharia religion is dominant rather than the Sunni religion.

This means Saudi Arabia citizens are exempt from the extra vetting procedures whilst Iranian and Iraqi visitors are not exempt as they have Sharia majorities.

You have got the "S"'s confused, my dear ! Saudi Arabia is the most Sharia country in the world. I think you meant to say Shia.

Sharia is a code of law, not a religious branch..

felix

Scott_P said:

felix said:

in the real world hyperbole gets you nowhere.

There was no need for May to rush to Washington. She could have waited until she had a clearer, better, appreciation of how Trump intends to behave. Verify then trust. Instead the prime minister gambled and by doing so chumped herself. She didn’t have to seem quite so needy; she didn’t have to embrace a president as venal as he is absurd, as malignant as he is ignorant.

All of this was predictable and, indeed, predicted. Who could have guessed Trump would behave like this? Only people who spent any time at all paying any attention to what he said. America First? Up to a point. America disgraced? Undoubtedly. And, as Mrs May may now have reason to reflect, the lesson to be drawn from Trump’s business career is a simple one: caveat emptor. That’s doubly true of his political career. He is in the business of shaming America; May risks humiliating Britain.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-mays-embrace-donald-trump-humiliates-britain/

So another politico who's never been elected anywhere lectures on realpolitik. Twitter is in meltdown and the outrage train is full to bursting of tweeting nonentities.

Dromedary

David_Evershed said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/pa/status/825726976535166977

To find out how to apply it in the UK?

Because she's worried that if all of the targeted countries impose similar bans on US citizens then Boris Johnson might find there are several countries he's not allowed to go to?

Jobabob

Mortimer said:

Jobabob said:

HYUFD said:

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Why don't you start one. You are allowed to, you know.

I have no interest in signing petitions against state visits by a Head of State, including Trump, demonstrate by all means but don't ban. However it is rather ironic that the biggest petition against a state visit by a Head of State is against a democratically elected leader rather than someone who is effectively a dictator!

'Elected' by a clear minority of those who voted - tyranny of the minority in Trumpton's case I suppose.

Elected according to the rules of the election.

Yes that is correct - I understand how the Electoral College works thanks.

Dromedary

Mortimer said:

Jobabob said:

HYUFD said:

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Why don't you start one. You are allowed to, you know.

I have no interest in signing petitions against state visits by a Head of State, including Trump, demonstrate by all means but don't ban. However it is rather ironic that the biggest petition against a state visit by a Head of State is against a democratically elected leader rather than someone who is effectively a dictator!

'Elected' by a clear minority of those who voted - tyranny of the minority in Trumpton's case I suppose.

Elected according to the rules of the election.

I.e. by a majority of the 538 electors
Just for the record, because I've met a few people who are getting this wrong: Clinton also won a minority of the votes cast, just a bigger minority than Trump's.

Jobabob

felix said:

Scott_P said:

felix said:

in the real world hyperbole gets you nowhere.

There was no need for May to rush to Washington. She could have waited until she had a clearer, better, appreciation of how Trump intends to behave. Verify then trust. Instead the prime minister gambled and by doing so chumped herself. She didn’t have to seem quite so needy; she didn’t have to embrace a president as venal as he is absurd, as malignant as he is ignorant.

All of this was predictable and, indeed, predicted. Who could have guessed Trump would behave like this? Only people who spent any time at all paying any attention to what he said. America First? Up to a point. America disgraced? Undoubtedly. And, as Mrs May may now have reason to reflect, the lesson to be drawn from Trump’s business career is a simple one: caveat emptor. That’s doubly true of his political career. He is in the business of shaming America; May risks humiliating Britain.

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/theresa-mays-embrace-donald-trump-humiliates-britain/

So another politico who's never been elected anywhere lectures on realpolitik. Twitter is in meltdown and the outrage train is full to bursting of tweeting nonentities.

Which is the faster and more powerful SJW vehicle, the Outrage Train or the Outrage Bus? Do both have automated virtue signalling? Would it be waycist to suggest taking the Outrage Jet instead?

AlsoIndigo

Jobabob said:

HYUFD said:

surbiton said:

HYUFD said:

MattW said:

3rd

williamglenn said:

MattW said:

I am with Dizzy on this petition. It is telling me I have already signed when that is untrue.

Either the thing is being manipulated or the system is not working as it should.

It's because some people are sharing a link with their own session id in the URL so it shows that it's been signed already. It doesn't mean the count is dodgy.

Hmm.

I followed the one from Jonathon Freedland here:
https://twitter.com/Freedland/status/825689782974050305

The link is a couple of hours old so the session id - and I couldn't obviously see one on the link - should have expired.

Can we also have petitions to end state visits by Putin, the President of China and the King of Saudi Arabia too then?

Why don't you start one. You are allowed to, you know.

I have no interest in signing petitions against state visits by a Head of State, including Trump, demonstrate by all means but don't ban. However it is rather ironic that the biggest petition against a state visit by a Head of State is against a democratically elected leader rather than someone who is effectively a dictator!

'Elected' by a clear minority of those who voted - tyranny of the minority in Trumpton's case I suppose.

By the system as laid down in the US Constitution. States elect presidents, not the voters.