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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This may herald the departure of one of Corbyn’s staunchest al

SystemSystem Posts: 11,008
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This may herald the departure of one of Corbyn’s staunchest allies, and maybe even Corbyn himself

If he's losing the support of Diane Abbott then the end is nigh for Corbyn. https://t.co/YDmVVSw0Pc pic.twitter.com/bqU6aCoOOk

Read the full story here


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    Going for an early election in that situation would be risky, because Labour might be able to pick a new leader before polling day, potentially giving them a major boost.

    Normally, Labour wouldn't be able to select a new leader that fast, but with the pressure of an impending election the party might informally agree on a single candidate who'd be elected unopposed.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,848
    edited February 2017
    Damn second again!

    Who would have predicted that, in the aftermath of the EU referendum, there would be a united Tory party (Ken Clarke excepted) and a split down the middle Labour Party? Rather amusing all the same.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Third, like UKIP in Stoke.
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    Does Corbyn need allies in parliament? I mean, the course he's plotting seems to be to hang on as leader being generally hopeless and not really opposing the government until the general election, which he'll lose. It's not obvious that he needs anything from the parliamentary party to achieve this.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited February 2017
    Fifth, like Ireland in the six nations.

    While TSE is the Liberal Democrat I most admire on this board, I cannot support his premise. Diane will go down with the good ship Corbyn.

    As you all know, I have long been an admirer of Ms. Abbott's heady mixture of principled politics, inclusiveness and intellectual rigour. I have no doubt that when she asserts she had a migraine she is being as truthful as she always is.
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    For some reason the name Ed Balls springs into my mind.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I'm sure she'll just be sick again. Then she hasn't voted against a three line whip. Of course it's a fig leaf [Mind Bleach!] but it's all Corbyn will need to forgive her
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Scotland for the Grand Slam ....

    Just saying .... :smiley:
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    Morning all.

    I think Abbott pulling a sicky has more to do with saving her own skin, than lack of support for Jeremy. Also doubt there’ll be any comeback as a result and she’ll continue to merrily ride pillion to Corbyn’s leadership.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    Going for an early election in that situation would be risky, because Labour might be able to pick a new leader before polling day, potentially giving them a major boost.

    I think this the real reason May isn't going to do an early GE. Corbyn would be out on his ear within days and she'd be campaigning, in her habitually awkward manner, against a new Labour leader in the middle the honeymoon period. Almost anyone who leads the Labour party will get signficant polling boost just by the simple device of not being Corbyn.
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    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Candidate for most mendacious quote of the year?

    "I'm just a normal person who is extremely disappointed not to get a knighthood"

    - David Beckham
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Charles said:

    Candidate for most mendacious quote of the year?

    "I'm just a normal person who is extremely disappointed not to get a knighthood"

    - David Beckham

    It's also a very strong contender for pseuds corner.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,110

    Going for an early election in that situation would be risky, because Labour might be able to pick a new leader before polling day, potentially giving them a major boost.

    Normally, Labour wouldn't be able to select a new leader that fast, but with the pressure of an impending election the party might informally agree on a single candidate who'd be elected unopposed.

    The moderates wouldn't agree to a candidate from the left; the left would reject a moderate. There isn't a big name that would be acceptable to both wings, and an unknown candidate would struggle to establish themselves in a campaign.

    Your answer would make sense for the Tories, Liberal Democrats or even the Greens, but looking for sanity among the Labour left right now is like searching through Stalin's speeches for the complimentary things he said about the kulaks.
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Is that a genuine Beckham quote?

    On-topic: perhaps. But this is a been-and-gone issue, is it not? Very important, but it's near certain to go through. Corbyn might just let Abbott claim she was touring East Germany and couldn't make it back in time.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Thought some might find this interesting. Admittedly the Daily Mail, but perhaps someone can find a different source?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4192182/World-leaders-duped-manipulated-global-warming-data.html
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    Charles said:

    Candidate for most mendacious quote of the year?

    "I'm just a normal person who is extremely disappointed not to get a knighthood"

    - David Beckham

    Everyone thinks of themselves as normal.

    President Trump is setting the bar for mendacity high this year.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    John_M said:

    Charles said:

    Candidate for most mendacious quote of the year?

    "I'm just a normal person who is extremely disappointed not to get a knighthood"

    - David Beckham

    It's also a very strong contender for pseuds corner.
    That's probably fairer - mendacious is a little harsh
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    Mr. Meeks, it's mildly amusing that everyone (as you say) thinks of themselves as normal, but so many are worried about being ordinary.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Good morning, everyone.

    Is that a genuine Beckham quote?

    On-topic: perhaps. But this is a been-and-gone issue, is it not? Very important, but it's near certain to go through. Corbyn might just let Abbott claim she was touring East Germany and couldn't make it back in time.

    Mail headline but in inverted commas. So perhaps someone else said it ;)
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    Dura_Ace said:

    Going for an early election in that situation would be risky, because Labour might be able to pick a new leader before polling day, potentially giving them a major boost.

    I think this the real reason May isn't going to do an early GE. Corbyn would be out on his ear within days and she'd be campaigning, in her habitually awkward manner, against a new Labour leader in the middle the honeymoon period. Almost anyone who leads the Labour party will get signficant polling boost just by the simple device of not being Corbyn.
    How? If May tries to call an early election then by far the more likely outcome is Labour circling the wagons than engaging in civil war (which might fail to achieve its objective, as the last one did). Labour's instinct for notional unity is strong.

    If May tried to call an election, I expect that Labour would try to block it and if successful in doing so, the wake-up call it would represent might well propel them to force Corbyn out immediately afterwards,as long as no challenge went off half-cock during the period when an electioh was a possibility.

    But if they fail and an election is called, it'd be Corbyn to lead.

    In any case, how would a brand new leader fight an election campaign with literally no preparation of their own and with Corbyn's personnel in place?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619

    What is it about right wing demagogues and handholding on stairs?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    It's quite a novelty to see Diane Abbott able to change the political weather though in reality it 's just a reflection on the the dire position of Corbyn's Labour Party.

    The problem with the hypothesis however is that Diane Abbott was on radio 4 on the day of the vote defending Labour's the three line whip for all she was worth. I know she's not averse to the odd porkie but to say "If we went against the will of the people we would never be trusted again" was not an obfuscation..
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Dura_Ace said:

    Going for an early election in that situation would be risky, because Labour might be able to pick a new leader before polling day, potentially giving them a major boost.

    I think this the real reason May isn't going to do an early GE. Corbyn would be out on his ear within days and she'd be campaigning, in her habitually awkward manner, against a new Labour leader in the middle the honeymoon period. Almost anyone who leads the Labour party will get signficant polling boost just by the simple device of not being Corbyn.
    Dura_Ace said:

    Going for an early election in that situation would be risky, because Labour might be able to pick a new leader before polling day, potentially giving them a major boost.

    I think this the real reason May isn't going to do an early GE. Corbyn would be out on his ear within days and she'd be campaigning, in her habitually awkward manner, against a new Labour leader in the middle the honeymoon period. Almost anyone who leads the Labour party will get signficant polling boost just by the simple device of not being Corbyn.
    I don't think he is outable though; it has been tried.

    What an odd expression "out on his ear" is btw, must remember to Google its origin.
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    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619

    What is it about right wing demagogues and handholding on stairs?

    Has Nigel fallen out with Vladimir?

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    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496
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    Labour is a total irrelevance, so people can be forgiven for not taking any notice of what is going on with the party's internal dynamics; but the few of us who do bother know that the Corbyn coalition - and it really is a coalition, not a solid mass - is rapidly falling apart at the seams.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2017
    John_M said:

    Charles said:

    Candidate for most mendacious quote of the year?

    "I'm just a normal person who is extremely disappointed not to get a knighthood"

    - David Beckham

    It's also a very strong contender for pseuds corner.
    I heard him on Desert Island Discs and thought he was about as complete a performer as you could find. Articulate witty interesting stories music choices not obviously chosen by a PR person. Someone who through life's exerience had changed from monosyllabic footballer into complete human being. How typical that it should be immediately followed by a character assassination by our rancid press.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
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    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,313

    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619

    What is it about right wing demagogues and handholding on stairs?

    Has Nigel fallen out with Vladimir?

    ??? This is from 2014.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619

    What is it about right wing demagogues and handholding on stairs?

    Has Nigel fallen out with Vladimir?

    I think Trumps antagonism to Iran is not to Putin's taste. Iran and Russia have common interests.
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    Mr. 86, if it's a three hour wait, that does sound fairly normal*. My parents had to wait for that long when they went to the US a few years ago.

    *A three hour standard wait is stupid, but you know what I mean.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2017
    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
    That doesn't make it non story and I must have been to the States over 40 times and I've never been kept waiting for three hours.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    JackW said:

    Scotland for the Grand Slam ....

    Just saying .... :smiley:

    We can't win every game with stats like that but it is fucking immense when we do.
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    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.

    Well, unless it was his first trip to the US clearly he was treated differently this time. But that is by the by. This story specifically will not run and run, but it feeds into an ongoing narrative: President Trump is poison for much of the UK's population.

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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    I'd be tempted to sign a petition calling for a review of devolution in the UK. Londoners have Khan, the Scots have Nicola, the Welsh have Jones and the Northern Irish have TBC. The rest of us have no one to lobby for us.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    FPT



    Hmmm, the CDU may prefer the SDP but what about the CSU? They have been increasingly warming to the AfD - which means there's no guarantee that a grand coalition will have a majority, if the CSU decide they've had enough.

    They won't. The CSU are like the Tory right - they grumble loudly from time to time, but they never actually defect, unless you count Carswell and Powell.
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    Mr. Meeks, thou art a grumpy turnip.

    Khan was democratically elected, though his disapproval of healthy women in bikinis in adverts is pathetic pandering to the insecure.

    Mr. Alistair, 'twas a fantastic win for Scotland. I was worried they'd do what they normally do (go down to gutsy defeat), and was rather pleased, and surprised, when they instead achieved gutsy victory.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    Dear God. There are some daft whatsits about!
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    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619

    What is it about right wing demagogues and handholding on stairs?

    Has Nigel fallen out with Vladimir?

    I think Trumps antagonism to Iran is not to Putin's taste. Iran and Russia have common interests.

    Where does Nigel find the money to afford the rent or mortgage on a £4 million Georgian townhouse? Or has one of his absolutely-not-a-member-of-the-privileged-elite mates given him free access?

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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
    In my experience 3hr waits are very unusual. Never had one.
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited February 2017

    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    ttps://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.

    Well, unless it was his first trip to the US clearly he was treated differently this time. But that is by the by. This story specifically will not run and run, but it feeds into an ongoing narrative: President Trump is poison for much of the UK's population.
    Things have obviously changed since I last visited NY if a 3 hour wait is the norm. What does intrigue me about the article is the lack info regarding the changes for visitors at airports due to Trump as implied by the story, or whether long waits were par for the course under Obama.
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    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
    In my experience 3hr waits are very unusual. Never had one.

    Neither have I - and I've been going four or five times a year for the last 20 years.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    On topic, I think the number of Corbyn supporters in the party who would be swung against by Diane Abbott being critical is actually zero. But it's symptomatic moe of the general anguish being felt by Remain MPs (mostly though not entirely Labour), who get the "must accept the result" theme but think they will genuinely be doing something terrible (and/or their constituents think so) if they vote for it.
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    tlg86 said:

    I'd be tempted to sign a petition calling for a review of devolution in the UK. Londoners have Khan, the Scots have Nicola, the Welsh have Jones and the Northern Irish have TBC. The rest of us have no one to lobby for us.
    Those in the stockbroker belt can't really complain on that front. The Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary are all answerable to constituents in such seats. Indeed, only Adam Afriyie in Windsor prevents them representing a contiguous strip.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2017
    Or....How to move sealessly from interesting left of centre commentator to Les Patterson
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    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619

    What is it about right wing demagogues and handholding on stairs?

    Has Nigel fallen out with Vladimir?

    I think Trumps antagonism to Iran is not to Putin's taste. Iran and Russia have common interests.

    Where does Nigel find the money to afford the rent or mortgage on a £4 million Georgian townhouse? Or has one of his absolutely-not-a-member-of-the-privileged-elite mates given him free access?
    A cursory glance at the Daily Mail article reveals ‘Farage’s secret £4million bachelor pad’ isn’t a secret, isn’t a bachelor pad and certainly isn’t his. It belongs to a ‘businessman’ friend of his, acccording to DM, but what the financial arrangement is, if any, is anyone’s guess.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,577
    edited February 2017
    Charles said:

    Thought some might find this interesting. Admittedly the Daily Mail, but perhaps someone can find a different source?

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4192182/World-leaders-duped-manipulated-global-warming-data.html

    While it's impossible to assess the strength of the rebuttal the behaviour of the proponents is highly questionable- any experiment which can't be replicated is essentially junk.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SkyNewsBreak: AP: The U.S. appeals court has denied Donald Trump's request to immediately reinstate his travel ban
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    tlg86 said:

    I'd be tempted to sign a petition calling for a review of devolution in the UK. Londoners have Khan, the Scots have Nicola, the Welsh have Jones and the Northern Irish have TBC. The rest of us have no one to lobby for us.
    Those in the stockbroker belt can't really complain on that front. The Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary are all answerable to constituents in such seats. Indeed, only Adam Afriyie in Windsor prevents them representing a contiguous strip.
    Not sure I follow your logic. Surely having lots of MPs in the government is, potentially, a disadvantage for their constituents as the government has to govern for the whole country. They can't afford to be seen to be working exclusively for their constituents benefit.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    On topic, I think the number of Corbyn supporters in the party who would be swung against by Diane Abbott being critical is actually zero. But it's symptomatic moe of the general anguish being felt by Remain MPs (mostly though not entirely Labour), who get the "must accept the result" theme but think they will genuinely be doing something terrible (and/or their constituents think so) if they vote for it.

    Many of the anti article 50 MPs were from heavily Remain constituencies, so a3 line whip was always a self made trap for the party.

    By the end of the year we may well see what Red Brexit looks like, as the alternative to Mrs Mays Bosses Brexit.

    Jezza will not be forced out. He will go at a time of his own choosing, probably after the new boundaries are through. In the meantime Labour will have a new generation selected by local people on local issues, like Gill Troughton in Copeland. This bodes well for the party in the longer term.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Alistair said:

    JackW said:

    Scotland for the Grand Slam ....

    Just saying .... :smiley:

    We can't win every game with stats like that but it is fucking immense when we do.
    Kindly oblige the site by not using such disgraceful language as "stats" !! .. :smile:
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    We have never waited for three hours (at SFO Airport) but recently well over an hour. The immigration hall at SFO has over 40 desks, less than ten are manned. We were left in little doubt that the USA was not enthusiastic about visitors, although the staff were friendly and polite.

    This was all under Obama; who knows how things will change.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    I'd be tempted to sign a petition calling for a review of devolution in the UK. Londoners have Khan, the Scots have Nicola, the Welsh have Jones and the Northern Irish have TBC. The rest of us have no one to lobby for us.
    Those in the stockbroker belt can't really complain on that front. The Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary are all answerable to constituents in such seats. Indeed, only Adam Afriyie in Windsor prevents them representing a contiguous strip.
    Not sure I follow your logic. Surely having lots of MPs in the government is, potentially, a disadvantage for their constituents as the government has to govern for the whole country. They can't afford to be seen to be working exclusively for their constituents benefit.
    My heart bleeds for the underrepresented people of the Home Counties.
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    Dr. Foxinsox, England is more than the Home Counties.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited February 2017
    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
    That doesn't make it non story and I must have been to the States over 40 times and I've never been kept waiting for three hours.
    I've regularly had 1+ hours in the main queue and if you are sent to secondary screening (as he probably was) it'a at least another 2 hours. I once missed a connecting flight because some ditz thought that "catch up with" meant "consult with"

    Also why "humiliated"? I was certainly "irritated" and "frustrated" but not "humiliated" - either the press is exagerrating or he is a very weak-willed individual. I suspect it isn't the latter...
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dr. Foxinsox, England is more than the Home Counties.

    Yeah. The East Midlands gets stiffed all the time.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    edited February 2017
    Six Nations: England down to 2.75 for a Grand Slam (Ladbrokes) from 3.2. It could happen but that price seems a bit crackers to me, given the performance.

    Also, many people last year tipped Macron (I got on at 13). He's now layable at 2.4 on Betfair. I think I'm going to cover off my stake.

    Edited extra bit: hmm, or could back Le Pen at 3.5 and Fillon at 8 to try and go all green that way. Decisions, decisions...
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    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
    That doesn't make it non story and I must have been to the States over 40 times and I've never been kept waiting for three hours.
    I've regularly had 1+ hours in the main queue and if you are sent to secondary screening (as he probably was) it'a at least another 2 hours. I once missed a connecting flight because some ditz thought that "catch up with" meant "consult with"
    3 hours at Dulles regularly. There's a reason I fly to the US from Dublin.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited February 2017

    FPT



    Hmmm, the CDU may prefer the SDP but what about the CSU? They have been increasingly warming to the AfD - which means there's no guarantee that a grand coalition will have a majority, if the CSU decide they've had enough.

    They won't. The CSU are like the Tory right - they grumble loudly from time to time, but they never actually defect, unless you count Carswell and Powell.
    Hunter? Reckless?
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    agingjb said:

    We have never waited for three hours (at SFO Airport) but recently well over an hour. The immigration hall at SFO has over 40 desks, less than ten are manned. We were left in little doubt that the USA was not enthusiastic about visitors, although the staff were friendly and polite.

    This was all under Obama; who knows how things will change.

    Immigration at SFO was great when I went through coming off a flight from Tokyo. Very fast, friendly, spoke good Japanese. I never quite figured out why the black immigration officer was speaking Japanese to me - I think he noticed I was white and British partway through but by that point it would have been awkward to switch.

    The guy at Chicago, on the other hand, was rude and dribbled egg from the sandwich he was eating all over my passport.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Not for the first time, Nigel Farage's gallantry to women is a wonder to behold:

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/married-nigel-farage-pictured-hand-in-hand-3646619

    What is it about right wing demagogues and handholding on stairs?

    Has Nigel fallen out with Vladimir?

    I think Trumps antagonism to Iran is not to Putin's taste. Iran and Russia have common interests.

    Where does Nigel find the money to afford the rent or mortgage on a £4 million Georgian townhouse? Or has one of his absolutely-not-a-member-of-the-privileged-elite mates given him free access?

    The article says it is "owned by a businessman" so presumably some kind of special arrangement. In my view that should be a disclosable donation but I don't know the MEP rules
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Jonathan said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
    In my experience 3hr waits are very unusual. Never had one.

    Neither have I - and I've been going four or five times a year for the last 20 years.

    One might only imagine the ferment of indignation a la Fox News if a Congressional Medal of Honor recipient had received reciprocal treatment at Heathrow.

    President Trump is quickly finding out the difference between campaigning on twitter and governing in a democracy with appropriate checks and balances.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    67 today - spending most of the day driving as part of a visit to various family during the week. It's commonplace to say it these days, but like most of my contemporaries I don't feel especially older than when I was 50 - still working most of the time, much the same energy. The thing about getting older is that when one does get a health problem is takes longer to recover (if at all), but while one's healthy it doesn't seem to make much difference. Which is good for us and good for the economy too - the idea that longevity is creating a class of chronically sick people for 20 years of miserable retirement is an inaccurate picture.

    What's needed, I think, is more scope for gradual retirement. Both employment markets and the pensions system really assume that either you're retired or you're not, and a gradual transition is difficult except for us self-employed types.
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    If it wasn't for the Tories trying to pursue a "lets leave Europe and have less trading links than Turkey" approach all of this would be very funny. Abbott having a migraine and missing the vote is believeable - as those of you who suffer from migraines know they can hit at the most inconvenient times and be absolutely debilitating.

    But as TSE points out it was also useful timing like a certain Huntingdon MP's dental work. For all that the last remaining acolytes try and defend it the Labour position on Europe is grossly stupid:
    1. We represent the 40 most remain and 40 most leave seats. A free vote on triggering A50 followed by a whipped process once A50 is triggered to get a "what next" position is what any leader would have done. Its not just losing seats to UKIP we need to worry about, its also leaving marginal remain seats to the LibDems
    2. We have published our "demands" on the A50 bill. But its only the bill to trigger A50, not the actual negotiation. And what do we want from the actual negotiation? Having triggered the process to leave the EU our position is what? The Tories and UKIP want economic catastrophe, the LibDems want to remain, the SNP want to at least retain EEA membership, I have no idea what Labour want.
    3. In having no published policy on where we go after leaving - the list of "protect jobs and rights" demands being utterly irrelevant without context" - dooms this party to be torn apart from left and right. Never mind that the Labour Party in its current form won't survive Corbyn, the United Kingdom won't survive hard brexit either and our gross incompetence aids and abets this calamity

    So yes. Diane Abbott can't stomach Corbyn's idiocy. She needs - to retain the John Major analogy - to put up or shut up. Denounce him for the useless shit that he is, or carry on not caring as her seat is safe anyway. As for who replaces Corbyn, I genuinely have no idea. Abbott would have been "perfect" for the cultists if she wasn't now seen as "soft". Previous favourites like Clive Lewis and Lisa Nandy have long departed, McDonnell doesn't want it. And that leaves...

    EMILY THORNBERRY
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Dr. Foxinsox, England is more than the Home Counties.

    Yeah. The East Midlands gets stiffed all the time.
    Well, perhaps the people of the East Midlands need to vote for their own version of the SNP.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    JackW said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:

    Scotland for the Grand Slam ....

    Just saying .... :smiley:

    We can't win every game with stats like that but it is fucking immense when we do.
    Kindly oblige the site by not using such disgraceful language as "stats" !! .. :smile:
    Best part of the win was shutting up Ronan O'Gara who was giving it all that before the match on RTE.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Six Nations: England down to 2.75 for a Grand Slam (Ladbrokes) from 3.2. It could happen but that price seems a bit crackers to me, given the performance.

    Also, many people last year tipped Macron (I got on at 13). He's now layable at 2.4 on Betfair. I think I'm going to cover off my stake.

    Edited extra bit: hmm, or could back Le Pen at 3.5 and Fillon at 8 to try and go all green that way. Decisions, decisions...

    I am now comfortably all green on this one. Macron or Hamon the best profit.

    Fillon may revive and Macron not make the final.

    Fillon vs Macron would be an interesting second round, LePen will get routed if she makes the final, but Macron vs Fillon would be a very interesting decision for the future of France.
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    Mr. 86, England doesn't need carving up. Bad enough having that daft Yorkshire First party.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    Dr. Foxinsox, England is more than the Home Counties.

    Yeah. The East Midlands gets stiffed all the time.
    Well, perhaps the people of the East Midlands need to vote for their own version of the SNP.
    No way am I linking up with tbe Sheepshaggers or Trees.
  • Options
    Dr. Foxinsox, decided to just hedge. No concern about Hamon making the last two?
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited February 2017

    67 today - spending most of the day driving as part of a visit to various family during the week. It's commonplace to say it these days, but like most of my contemporaries I don't feel especially older than when I was 50 - still working most of the time, much the same energy. The thing about getting older is that when one does get a health problem is takes longer to recover (if at all), but while one's healthy it doesn't seem to make much difference. Which is good for us and good for the economy too - the idea that longevity is creating a class of chronically sick people for 20 years of miserable retirement is an inaccurate picture.

    What's needed, I think, is more scope for gradual retirement. Both employment markets and the pensions system really assume that either you're retired or you're not, and a gradual transition is difficult except for us self-employed types.

    that's v true.. some people I know who have retired struggle with not working and not knowing what to do or how to fill the day, on the other hand some I know love it and spend most of their time in foreign parts. I doubt my brother spends much time in the UK, he is always off somewhere.
    I will have to work on if I want to live where I am. Its probably a good problem for me to have.., I need work or something to fill my day, I'd be bored stiff v soon without it.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    67 today - spending most of the day driving as part of a visit to various family during the week. It's commonplace to say it these days, but like most of my contemporaries I don't feel especially older than when I was 50 - still working most of the time, much the same energy. The thing about getting older is that when one does get a health problem is takes longer to recover (if at all), but while one's healthy it doesn't seem to make much difference. Which is good for us and good for the economy too - the idea that longevity is creating a class of chronically sick people for 20 years of miserable retirement is an inaccurate picture.

    What's needed, I think, is more scope for gradual retirement. Both employment markets and the pensions system really assume that either you're retired or you're not, and a gradual transition is difficult except for us self-employed types.

    Happy Birthday!

    I agree, the abolition of compulsory retirement has been a liberation for many. Some have to work to make ends meet, but many of us choose to.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,968

    67 today - spending most of the day driving as part of a visit to various family during the week. It's commonplace to say it these days, but like most of my contemporaries I don't feel especially older than when I was 50 - still working most of the time, much the same energy. The thing about getting older is that when one does get a health problem is takes longer to recover (if at all), but while one's healthy it doesn't seem to make much difference. Which is good for us and good for the economy too - the idea that longevity is creating a class of chronically sick people for 20 years of miserable retirement is an inaccurate picture.

    What's needed, I think, is more scope for gradual retirement. Both employment markets and the pensions system really assume that either you're retired or you're not, and a gradual transition is difficult except for us self-employed types.

    Happy Birthday Nick! Agree strongly with you about gradual transition.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited February 2017

    On topic, I think the number of Corbyn supporters in the party who would be swung against by Diane Abbott being critical is actually zero. But it's symptomatic moe of the general anguish being felt by Remain MPs (mostly though not entirely Labour), who get the "must accept the result" theme but think they will genuinely be doing something terrible (and/or their constituents think so) if they vote for it.

    Hi Nick. Don't you think that if Corbyn had gone solidly for Remain and despite the referendum had stuck to his guns at least he could still claim to be a man of principle. On every other issue we're told that despite overwhelming public opinion being against him he wont change his principles. CND etc are just too important. Does that mean that the EU isn't? Don't you think this makes his USP look like a sham?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dr. Foxinsox, decided to just hedge. No concern about Hamon making the last two?

    It seems pretty unlikely, but I did have £2 on on v long odds so sitting pretty.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Six Nations: England down to 2.75 for a Grand Slam (Ladbrokes) from 3.2. It could happen but that price seems a bit crackers to me, given the performance.

    Also, many people last year tipped Macron (I got on at 13). He's now layable at 2.4 on Betfair. I think I'm going to cover off my stake.

    Edited extra bit: hmm, or could back Le Pen at 3.5 and Fillon at 8 to try and go all green that way. Decisions, decisions...

    That French pack was probably the biggest I have ever seen. to win ugly as they put it after soaking up so much pressure was very commendable.
  • Options

    If it wasn't for the Tories trying to pursue a "lets leave Europe and have less trading links than Turkey" approach all of this would be very funny. Abbott having a migraine and missing the vote is believeable - as those of you who suffer from migraines know they can hit at the most inconvenient times and be absolutely debilitating.

    But as TSE points out it was also useful timing like a certain Huntingdon MP's dental work. For all that the last remaining acolytes try and defend it the Labour position on Europe is grossly stupid:
    1. We represent the 40 most remain and 40 most leave seats. A free vote on triggering A50 followed by a whipped process once A50 is triggered to get a "what next" position is what any leader would have done. Its not just losing seats to UKIP we need to worry about, its also leaving marginal remain seats to the LibDems
    2. We have published our "demands" on the A50 bill. But its only the bill to trigger A50, not the actual negotiation. And what do we want from the actual negotiation? Having triggered the process to leave the EU our position is what? The Tories and UKIP want economic catastrophe, the LibDems want to remain, the SNP want to at least retain EEA membership, I have no idea what Labour want.
    3. In having no published policy on where we go after leaving - the list of "protect jobs and rights" demands being utterly irrelevant without context" - dooms this party to be torn apart from left and right. Never mind that the Labour Party in its current form won't survive Corbyn, the United Kingdom won't survive hard brexit either and our gross incompetence aids and abets this calamity

    So yes. Diane Abbott can't stomach Corbyn's idiocy. She needs - to retain the John Major analogy - to put up or shut up. Denounce him for the useless shit that he is, or carry on not caring as her seat is safe anyway. As for who replaces Corbyn, I genuinely have no idea. Abbott would have been "perfect" for the cultists if she wasn't now seen as "soft". Previous favourites like Clive Lewis and Lisa Nandy have long departed, McDonnell doesn't want it. And that leaves...

    EMILY THORNBERRY

    Your 1, 2 and 3 are spot on. The Article 50 trigger did not have to be a big deal, Corbyn chose to make it one. A sensible, competent leader would have realised the A50 vote would soon be forgotten once the negotiations had started. But not very smart and woefully advised, Corbyn picked a needless fight that has alienated many members of his coalition; just as Momentum is tearing itself apart. It's hard to see how he puts the pieces back together again.

    As for the next leader - Thornberry will need the nominations. She won't get 35. If the McDonnell amendment goes through, there will be several candidates from the left. One thing is now clear: Corbyn will not get to annoint his successor.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    edited February 2017

    67 today - spending most of the day driving as part of a visit to various family during the week. It's commonplace to say it these days, but like most of my contemporaries I don't feel especially older than when I was 50 - still working most of the time, much the same energy. The thing about getting older is that when one does get a health problem is takes longer to recover (if at all), but while one's healthy it doesn't seem to make much difference. Which is good for us and good for the economy too - the idea that longevity is creating a class of chronically sick people for 20 years of miserable retirement is an inaccurate picture.

    What's needed, I think, is more scope for gradual retirement. Both employment markets and the pensions system really assume that either you're retired or you're not, and a gradual transition is difficult except for us self-employed types.


    Gradual retirement, Mr P, is fine if you can do it. I did, but got to a state where paying professional fees and insurance took me into May or so before I was earning anything for me. Plus the tax situation, given that some of my various pensions had to be drawn at 65.
    If that isn’t a problem, fine.
    What happened then, when I actually stopped altogether, though.was my previous good health ..... hardly ever a day off work etc ...... stopped and at least every year something else went wrong or neeeded treatment. Often time-consuming treatment.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Alistair said:

    JackW said:

    Alistair said:

    JackW said:

    Scotland for the Grand Slam ....

    Just saying .... :smiley:

    We can't win every game with stats like that but it is fucking immense when we do.
    Kindly oblige the site by not using such disgraceful language as "stats" !! .. :smile:
    Best part of the win was shutting up Ronan O'Gara who was giving it all that before the match on RTE.
    Quite so.

    Worryingly England have the look of a team that carves out a win whilst looking second best for much of the match .... rather like Donald Trump .... :sunglasses:

    Excellent use there of a gratuitous and completely unfair coupling of a grudgingly respected winner and POTUS .... :smile:
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    tlg86 said:

    Dr. Foxinsox, England is more than the Home Counties.

    Yeah. The East Midlands gets stiffed all the time.
    Well, perhaps the people of the East Midlands need to vote for their own version of the SNP.
    No way am I linking up with tbe Sheepshaggers or Trees.
    England should simply become part of Greater Rutland and have done with it, with the seat of government at Oakham Castle.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38872680

    Trumps attempt to re-instate the Tavel Ban fails in the Federal Appeal Court!
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    If it wasn't for the Tories trying to pursue a "lets leave Europe and have less trading links than Turkey" approach all of this would be very funny. Abbott having a migraine and missing the vote is believeable - as those of you who suffer from migraines know they can hit at the most inconvenient times and be absolutely debilitating.

    But as TSE points out it was also useful timing like a certain Huntingdon MP's dental work. For all that the last remaining acolytes try and defend it the Labour position on Europe is grossly stupid:
    1. We represent the 40 most remain and 40 most leave seats. A free vote on triggering A50 followed by a whipped process once A50 is triggered to get a "what next" position is what any leader would have done. Its not just losing seats to UKIP we need to worry about, its also leaving marginal remain seats to the LibDems
    2. We have published our "demands" on the A50 bill. But its only the bill to trigger A50, not the actual negotiation. And what do we want from the actual negotiation? Having triggered the process to leave the EU our position is what? The Tories and UKIP want economic catastrophe, the LibDems want to remain, the SNP want to at least retain EEA membership, I have no idea what Labour want.
    3. In having no published policy on where we go after leaving - the list of "protect jobs and rights" demands being utterly irrelevant without context" - dooms this party to be torn apart from left and right. Never mind that the Labour Party in its current form won't survive Corbyn, the United Kingdom won't survive hard brexit either and our gross incompetence aids and abets this calamity

    So yes. Diane Abbott can't stomach Corbyn's idiocy. She needs - to retain the John Major analogy - to put up or shut up. Denounce him for the useless shit that he is, or carry on not caring as her seat is safe anyway. As for who replaces Corbyn, I genuinely have no idea. Abbott would have been "perfect" for the cultists if she wasn't now seen as "soft". Previous favourites like Clive Lewis and Lisa Nandy have long departed, McDonnell doesn't want it. And that leaves...

    EMILY THORNBERRY

    Bravo Rochdale. Very good post. Should be rammed up the backside of the entire shadow cabinet in triplicate
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,379

    67 today - spending most of the day driving as part of a visit to various family during the week. It's commonplace to say it these days, but like most of my contemporaries I don't feel especially older than when I was 50 - still working most of the time, much the same energy. The thing about getting older is that when one does get a health problem is takes longer to recover (if at all), but while one's healthy it doesn't seem to make much difference. Which is good for us and good for the economy too - the idea that longevity is creating a class of chronically sick people for 20 years of miserable retirement is an inaccurate picture.

    What's needed, I think, is more scope for gradual retirement. Both employment markets and the pensions system really assume that either you're retired or you're not, and a gradual transition is difficult except for us self-employed types.

    Many happy returns.
    I agree with you entirely on gradual retirement. For those committed to their careers, without much of a hinterland, an abrupt cutoff can leave them utterly confused. On the other side of the coin, retaining the institutional memory of older employees can be a significant benefit.
    I have successfully employed a part time company secretary well into his seventies.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    If EMILY THORNBERRY is the answer,

    what on Earth is the question?
  • Options



    Your 1, 2 and 3 are spot on. The Article 50 trigger did not have to be a big deal, Corbyn chose to make it one. A sensible, competent leader would have realised the A50 vote would soon be forgotten once the negotiations had started. But not very smart and woefully advised, Corbyn picked a needless fight that has alienated many members of his coalition; just as Momentum is tearing itself apart. It's hard to see how he puts the pieces back together again.

    As for the next leader - Thornberry will need the nominations. She won't get 35. If the McDonnell amendment goes through, there will be several candidates from the left. One thing is now clear: Corbyn will not get to annoint his successor.

    Good point about nominations. And a leadership contest surely is coming as we're losing Copeland to the Tories and Stoke to UKIP. In Copeland we had the leak of the canvass returns, and the -25% since 2015 chimes with what we're seeing in the NE so I can believe it. In Stoke we've gone from "no deals with other parties" to "can we get the LibDems and Greens to stand down to stop Nuttall" - in other words the canvas returns from Stoke are as awful as Copeland.

    So, evidence suggests we will lose both seats. At which point even my Momentum friends think Corbyn will have to go. In departing he will probably take 100k members out of the party which is bad financially but good on all other considerations.

    And yes, its then which MPs will get the nominations and bugger the cultists in the membership. Who wants it? Starmer has impressed a lot of people. Clive Lewis? Angela Rayner? Yvette Cooper again?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    tlg86 said:

    Note to Theresa May - keep Donald Trump at arm's length ...
    https://twitter.com/paul1singh/status/828155629479018496

    Non-story. A three hour wait isn't unusual and I doubt he was treated any differently as he would have been under the Obama regime.
    That doesn't make it non story and I must have been to the States over 40 times and I've never been kept waiting for three hours.
    I've regularly had 1+ hours in the main queue and if you are sent to secondary screening (as he probably was) it'a at least another 2 hours. I once missed a connecting flight because some ditz thought that "catch up with" meant "consult with"

    Also why "humiliated"? I was certainly "irritated" and "frustrated" but not "humiliated" - either the press is exagerrating or he is a very weak-willed individual. I suspect it isn't the latter...
    For the same reason various ethic minorities don't like stop and search.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    edited February 2017
    Nigelb said:

    67 today - spending most of the day driving as part of a visit to various family during the week. It's commonplace to say it these days, but like most of my contemporaries I don't feel especially older than when I was 50 - still working most of the time, much the same energy. The thing about getting older is that when one does get a health problem is takes longer to recover (if at all), but while one's healthy it doesn't seem to make much difference. Which is good for us and good for the economy too - the idea that longevity is creating a class of chronically sick people for 20 years of miserable retirement is an inaccurate picture.

    What's needed, I think, is more scope for gradual retirement. Both employment markets and the pensions system really assume that either you're retired or you're not, and a gradual transition is difficult except for us self-employed types.

    Many happy returns.
    I agree with you entirely on gradual retirement. For those committed to their careers, without much of a hinterland, an abrupt cutoff can leave them utterly confused. On the other side of the coin, retaining the institutional memory of older employees can be a significant benefit.
    I have successfully employed a part time company secretary well into his seventies.
    Alternatively, there are all sorts of activities outside work. My wife and I spend a lot of time on University of the Third Age activities, in my case on-line as well as with our local group, and, again in my case, overseas.
    There’s a lot of fascinating ‘stuff’ to be found at the local WEA........ known in our area as the Wrinklies Educational Association !
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jonathan said:

    If EMILY THORNBERRY is the answer,

    what on Earth is the question?

    Which Labour politician is most likely to piss off patriotic working class voters in marginal seats?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Blimey, the Guardian is printing articles from The Federalist

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/05/trump-not-fascist-champion-for-forgotten-millions

    I can't wait for the comments :smiley:
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,379

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38872680

    Trumps attempt to re-instate the Tavel Ban fails in the Federal Appeal Court!

    That ought to read Trump's first attempt.
    He doesn't strike me as the type to give up on this, and given the reach of presidential powers - not least in judicial appointment - I fear not so much for which way this particular battle turns out, but more for the long term damage he might wreck on the judicial system.

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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Jonathan said:

    If EMILY THORNBERRY is the answer,

    what on Earth is the question?

    I quite like her. She's at least articulate and I liked her flag gag
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    Thanks for the friemndly comments, all. Roger, I think the A50 thing is genuinely difficult,and Remainers need to play it long, aiming to keep the final decision open till the negotiations have actually delivered a deal which peels off some of the Leavers who liked the general idea but dislike the outcome. Not opposing the negotiations in prijnciple but trying to amend it to keep the option of rejection of the outcome opn is the thing to aim for, but difficult.

    I do agree that Corbyn needs to identify a few key issues that relate to ordinary people, and he can be thoroughly controversial about them (he will not win votes by trying to seem a centrist). Maximuim wage, nationalise the railways, Crossrail 3 in the north funded by borrowing, and more needed. Putting up tax by 1p for standard and 2p for higher rate to fund the NHS and social care properly would be my favourite - would cause a hell of a fuss but I think significantly more than our current 30% would go for it.

    I'll sign off for today - be good, children.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited February 2017
    JackW said:

    compliment about English rugby.

    The completely unbiased and neutral Welsh rugby message board I read was apoplectic with the ref in the England France match.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    The latest German opinion poll £ EMNID ) seems to confirm that there has been a sudden movement over the last week from CDU/CSU to SPD

    CDU/CSU 33 minus 4
    SPD 29 plus 6
    Green 8 minus 2
    FDP 6 N/C
    Linke 8 minus 2
    AfD 11 N/C
    Others 5 plus 2

    Changes from last poll 7 days ago
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924

    Thanks for the friemndly comments, all. Roger, I think the A50 thing is genuinely difficult,and Remainers need to play it long, aiming to keep the final decision open till the negotiations have actually delivered a deal which peels off some of the Leavers who liked the general idea but dislike the outcome. Not opposing the negotiations in prijnciple but trying to amend it to keep the option of rejection of the outcome opn is the thing to aim for, but difficult.

    I do agree that Corbyn needs to identify a few key issues that relate to ordinary people, and he can be thoroughly controversial about them (he will not win votes by trying to seem a centrist). Maximuim wage, nationalise the railways, Crossrail 3 in the north funded by borrowing, and more needed. Putting up tax by 1p for standard and 2p for higher rate to fund the NHS and social care properly would be my favourite - would cause a hell of a fuss but I think significantly more than our current 30% would go for it.

    I'll sign off for today - be good, children.

    Enjoy your birthday!
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Happy Birthday @NickPalmer
This discussion has been closed.