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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » John Bercow says he will block Trump from addressing the House

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited February 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » John Bercow says he will block Trump from addressing the House of Commons

Speaker Bercow says he will block @realDonaldTrump from addressing Parliament on State visit : Commons opposes "racism and sexism". Wow

Read the full story here


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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Glorious first!
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    Fake speech from the Speaker.
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    Does the POTUS usually address Parliament during State visits?
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    FPT but on topic:

    I get that an invitation to address the House of Commons is, by definition, one for the House of Commons (and that an invitation to address both Houses is by extension partly one for the House of Commons and one that it can withdraw from unilaterally). I get that the Speaker speaks for the House of Commons and so can refuse the invitation on the House of Commons' behalf.

    But can't he be overridden by a vote among MPs if they so choose?

    Could some constitutional expert opine?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Did he say he would block it? The quote I saw is that "he would not wish to issue an invitation". Frankly it's not his decision.

    But, in any event, this just shows the idiocy of politicians. If the assorted people opposed to Trump hadn't demanded he wasn't invited then he probably wouldn't have been invited. Now that they've screamed about it they've made it a "thing".

    Whereas previously hardly anyone was invited to speak there. Am I right in remembering that Mandela was the first?
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,105
    edited February 2017

    Does the POTUS usually address Parliament during State visits?

    Don't usually get a state visit months into their presidency, so we're already breaking new ground. It appears May wanted him to do so.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    If this isn't in the gift of the Speaker of the Commons, Bercow should go.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    edited February 2017
    Being serious he took an overtly political position supported almost exclusively by one side of the house and accused the Presidnet of racism and sexism. Utterly and completely inappropriate for the Speaker to use his office for this kind of political meddling. Whatever one thinks of Trump this was really neither the time or place and certainly not the person to make those kind of remarks
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited February 2017
    As I posted on the previous thread, I think this is disgraceful behaviour by Bercow. He is supposed to be an independent Speaker, not a politician expressing views on the merits or otherwise of a US President.

    (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not supporting Trump. This shouldn't need saying, but a lot of people, even here, don't seem to understand the concept that a judge or a Speaker shouldn't express political views or make political decisions).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    I don't think this should be within Bercow's remit.
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    Bercow's an oaf. He's meant to be an umpire, and neutral, not get involved in diplomatic/foreign affairs.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927

    As I posted on the previous thread, I think this is disgraceful behaviour by Bercow. He is supposed to be an independent Speaker, not a politician expressing views on the merits or otherwise of a US President.

    (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not supporting Trump. This shouldn't need saying, but a lot of people, even here, don't seem to be understand the concept that a judge or a Speaker shouldn't express political views or make political decisions).

    The best referees are the ones you don't notice
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    edited February 2017
    Looks like Bercow'a created a nice little international incident. Oh dear.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Would be delicious if he had to go for this... :D
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    Perhaps Trump will ban Bercow from the US!
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    As I posted on the previous thread, I think this is disgraceful behaviour by Bercow. He is supposed to be an independent Speaker, not a politician expressing views on the merits or otherwise of a US President.

    (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not supporting Trump. This shouldn't need saying, but a lot of people, even here, don't seem to be understand the concept that a judge or a Speaker shouldn't express political views or make political decisions).

    Quite. I have never been a great fan but he seriously crossed a line here and moreover seemed to want to lap up the cheers and claps from one side of the house to boot. A complete failure of judgement.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,435
    edited February 2017
    As somebody once told me

    'In a few years' time we will find out that Napoleon has a Bercow complex'
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    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    Top man that John Bercow. Hope he reconsiders retiring upstairs for a while longer.

    But....Alistair Meeks and others have a point. Is he sure that he speaks for a majority of the house? He probably does but to come out against the Government position so strongly leaves him very vulnerable if he doesn't.
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    No clapping in the house!!! Unless it's for me, in which case I'll allow it this once...

    Berk.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    Cons are 1.61 to win Copeland
    UKIP are 2.23 to win Stoke

    That double is 3.59

    You can lay 2.88... is the related contingency factor that big?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Perhaps Trump will ban Bercow from the US!

    https://twitter.com/mrtcharris/status/828650153741541376
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    And I wanted a quite Monday evening.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    And I wanted a quite Monday evening.

    I saw that ;)
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:
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    RobD said:

    And I wanted a quite Monday evening.

    I saw that ;)
    It was my iPad's fault for that embarrassing misuse of an apostrophe.
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    isam said:

    Cons are 1.61 to win Copeland
    UKIP are 2.23 to win Stoke

    That double is 3.59

    You can lay 2.88... is the related contingency factor that big?

    Who knows, but my judgement would be that it is that big. Basically it comes down to whether Labour (and also the Conservatives) can get their vote out in current circumstances, and many of the same factors will apply in the two constituencies.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,609
    Expecting a tweet about the Motherf*cker of Parliaments any moment now...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    JackW said:

    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:

    They don't usually address the Commons from within the Commons though ;)
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    RobD said:

    And I wanted a quite Monday evening.

    I saw that ;)
    It was my iPad's fault for that embarrassing misuse of an apostrophe.
    Hey, that's my excuse!!
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    JackW said:

    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:

    Channelling Speaker Lenthall?
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    Bercow has made a bad situation worse. To the eyes of the world Theresa looks even more awkward and isolated than before. What a bugger's muddle! Of course, before he became a progressive Bercow was a rising star in the proto-Alt-Right Monday Club. I suspect Bercow thinks this gives him a remit to be especially critical of Donald, as a reformed former fellow traveller.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,609
    How should those of us who despise both of them react to this ?
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    FPT but on topic:

    I get that an invitation to address the House of Commons is, by definition, one for the House of Commons (and that an invitation to address both Houses is by extension partly one for the House of Commons and one that it can withdraw from unilaterally). I get that the Speaker speaks for the House of Commons and so can refuse the invitation on the House of Commons' behalf.

    But can't he be overridden by a vote among MPs if they so choose?

    Could some constitutional expert opine?

    I have no idea. He is after all elected by the Commons so I would assume he answerable to them.

    But he is also only Speaker for the Commons. I assume his power doesn't extend to the whole of Parliament. Moreover whilst I detest Trump I would be concerned about the Speaker denying the right to address British MPs to the position of the President. It is rather like the old adage that you salute the rank not the person.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited February 2017
    :smiley:. Bercow
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    Unlike others, I think that this is a call within John Bercow's remit. It is the job of the Speaker to speak for the House.

    But he has to be very sure that he is speaking for the House as a whole before doing so. If it is even slightly doubtful that he's speaking for a majority of the House, he should have subsided.

    Perhaps he's made the appropriate soundings.
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    I've just stuck in the video of Bercow's intervention
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    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited February 2017
    The alternative fact that it's only a so called Parliament.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    There should be a vote of no confidence in the speaker. He has blatantly broken his political neutrality and he has to go. Disgraceful.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    Oh dear!
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    Unlike others, I think that this is a call within John Bercow's remit. It is the job of the Speaker to speak for the House.

    But he has to be very sure that he is speaking for the House as a whole before doing so. If it is even slightly doubtful that he's speaking for a majority of the House, he should have subsided.

    Perhaps he's made the appropriate soundings.

    If parliament wants to deny a visit, then that is a matter for parliament - via a vote. This is impossible to defend.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999
    Thing's I never thought I'd say: Well done, Bercow. If it fucks things up for May that's even more lolsome.
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    Well done my MP
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    This is John Bercow confirming that Parliament is sovereign right?
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    Mr. Pauly, I think Bercow would win by a tiny majority, then stay on because he's a graceless cretin.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:

    They don't usually address the Commons from within the Commons though ;)
    Exactly.

    The Speaker isn't there to parrot the position of the government but to be the Commons man/woman and to uphold the rights, duties and responsibilities of the role developed down the centuries and that includes invitations within the remit of The Palace of Westminster authorities.
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    FPT but on topic:

    I get that an invitation to address the House of Commons is, by definition, one for the House of Commons (and that an invitation to address both Houses is by extension partly one for the House of Commons and one that it can withdraw from unilaterally). I get that the Speaker speaks for the House of Commons and so can refuse the invitation on the House of Commons' behalf.

    But can't he be overridden by a vote among MPs if they so choose?

    Could some constitutional expert opine?

    I have no idea. He is after all elected by the Commons so I would assume he answerable to them.

    But he is also only Speaker for the Commons. I assume his power doesn't extend to the whole of Parliament. Moreover whilst I detest Trump I would be concerned about the Speaker denying the right to address British MPs to the position of the President. It is rather like the old adage that you salute the rank not the person.
    Hence my question upthread on the past history of PsOTUS addressing Parliament...
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:

    Channelling Speaker Lenthall?
    :smiley:
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Brace for right wing rage. Could be quite a telling couple of hours.
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897
    Jonathan said:

    Brace for right wing rage. Could be quite a telling couple of hours.

    Yes right wing...

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/828653271082528768
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited February 2017
    There is another dimension to this, by the way.

    Many were unhappy with Bercow campaigning for the job and getting it largely due to Labour votes*. He's now politicised the position beyond all measure of doubt. So, when the next vote for a new Speaker comes around, MPs may start thinking about how their choice might help them or hinder their opponents (or vice versa).

    Still, it got him some applause and gave him an opportunity to annoy the democratically elected government.

    Edited extra bit: so who cares if he throws out the neutrality along with the wigs, right?

    Edited extra bit 2: *with concerns he's been rather more helpful to red than blue, and won those votes because the PLP wanted to irritate the Conservatives, rather than on merit.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Pauly said:

    Jonathan said:

    Brace for right wing rage. Could be quite a telling couple of hours.

    Yes right wing...

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/828653271082528768
    As I said, telling.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    I guess Bercow can kiss goodbye to the customary peerage on his retirement.
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    I think John has always pictured himself as Hugh Grant...
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Here's my problem with this. Bercow was happy to allow Xi Jinping address Parliament:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvSTUuqc9WM
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    edited February 2017
    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:

    They don't usually address the Commons from within the Commons though ;)
    Exactly.

    The Speaker isn't there to parrot the position of the government but to be the Commons man/woman and to uphold the rights, duties and responsibilities of the role developed down the centuries and that includes invitations within the remit of The Palace of Westminster authorities.
    Quite right. It's not as if May has invited Trump to address Parliament - only to sleep in the Queen's pad and ride in a golden coach.

    EDIT - in front of a million people with their backs turned.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Can Bercow stop him ?

    He says himself there are three keyholders, and that he is opposed. Not that the office of speaker will block Trump ?
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    Evening all.

    The speaker of the house is supposedly impartial, is it really his place to voice an opinion in this way? - Also the story is a little vague, has Trump even been invited to address parliment?
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    Talk about throwing petrol on the fire.
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    I think John has always pictured himself as Hugh Grant...

    ... but as what? The PM with Martine McCutcheon in Love Actually or himself with Divine Brown in Beverly Hills?
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Bercow upholding the British tradition of fairness and decency as opposed to the Trump a**e licking of May .
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    Evening all.

    The speaker of the house is supposedly impartial, is it really his place to voice an opinion in this way? - Also the story is a little vague, has Trump even been invited to address parliment?

    He made it worse by saying the migrant ban from Trump made him even more determined in his mind. Surely that makes it a political decision? Tough call.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,927

    isam said:

    Cons are 1.61 to win Copeland
    UKIP are 2.23 to win Stoke

    That double is 3.59

    You can lay 2.88... is the related contingency factor that big?

    Who knows, but my judgement would be that it is that big. Basically it comes down to whether Labour (and also the Conservatives) can get their vote out in current circumstances, and many of the same factors will apply in the two constituencies.
    Another way of putting it is by laying 2.88 you are effectively backing Labour or Lib Dems to win at least one of them at 8/15
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    How can Bercow stop the address?
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    Does the POTUS usually address Parliament during State visits?

    Reagan, George W Bush and Obama have all had State visits to the UK and both Reagan and Obama addressed the joint Houses of Parliament during those visits. GW did not.

    Bill Clinton has also addressed the joint Houses but his was not a State visit.
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    Asking for a friend.

    Friend has a date this evening, friend is also editing a website about betting on politics, and then John Bercow does this, should my friend leave his phone at home tonight?
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    Jonathan said:

    Brace for right wing rage. Could be quite a telling couple of hours.

    No, brace for expressions of concern by people who think the Speaker should not take political sides.

    I'm surprised, and somewhat shocked, that you, and Nick P, aren't amongst them.
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    Incoming Bercow related Wikileaks..5-4-3-2-1..
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    Bercow upholding the British tradition of fairness and decency as opposed to the Trump a**e licking of May .

    How was he doing that when he invited the Chinese premier to address both houses?
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    PaulyPauly Posts: 897

    Evening all.

    The speaker of the house is supposedly impartial, is it really his place to voice an opinion in this way? - Also the story is a little vague, has Trump even been invited to address parliment?

    He made it worse by saying the migrant ban from Trump made him even more determined in his mind. Surely that makes it a political decision? Tough call.
    He also implies Trump doesn't support an independent judiciary. The classic lie that insulting judges and an independent judiciary are mutually exclusive when they are not. This was a politically charged statement.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Nigelb said:

    Expecting a tweet about the Motherf*cker of Parliaments any moment now...

    Grins.
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    I was unsure about what Bercow did was the right thing to do or not, now I'm convinced it very much the right thing Bercow did.

    https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/828655395103059968
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    Will the rage be more titanic in Downing Street or the Oval Office?
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    And, whilst I'm procrastinating, I think this is very serious indeed. The real reason Rome won the Second Punic War wasn't because of a given general or army. It was because of the rock-solid constitutional position and the pathological patriotism of the people. That meant it could absorb the immense damage Hannibal repeatedly dealt it.

    When Carthage suffered a comparable blow at Zama, it couldn't recover because it lacked that resilience.

    This, more than anything else, emphasises that the brilliance of an individual is outweighed by the stability and strength of political institutions.

    I think Trump's an oaf. I wouldn't have voted for him. I wouldn't've offered him a state visit either (official, perhaps). However, that is the business of the Government.

    The Speaker's role is be a neutral, objective umpire. He is not there to play the game but to officiate. Now he's stuck his leg out, put the ball in the net, and is running around with his shirt over his head whilst half the players applaud him.

    But for that cheap shot, leaving aside the considerable difficulty this may well cause the Government, it may change, and weaken, the function of the Speaker forever. How can he be seen as neutral after this? Diplomatic and foreign affairs are not his business. But he has waded in anyway.

    Before Flavius Phocas in the 7th century, Byzantium had no history of mutilation [emperors had to be perfect - that is to say, physically whole and without deformity]. Phocas was a sadist and mutilated the former emperor Maurice, as well as others. After him, for about eight centuries, mutilation was common practice for imperial rivals who lost.

    One man's bad practice became a template for his successors and a habit for his people. Maybe this will be a one off. I hope so. But from now on every MP will need to consider the party political angle very carefully when voting for a new Speaker. Because the modernising supply teacher has decided he can ignore common sense and convention and start playing the game, as well as being the referee.

    I think people sometimes underestimate the importance of institutions. It's why Blair was idiotic to think Holyrood would slay the SNP. It's why those who want to carve England up into petty fiefdoms are wrong. And it's why the Speaker should long ago have taken a leaf out of Her Majesty's book, and learned the art of being silent on controversial political matters.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Asking for a friend.

    Friend has a date this evening, friend is also editing a website about betting on politics, and then John Bercow does this, should my friend leave his phone at home tonight?

    Friend should take phone for date, but not use the data function!
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    Will the rage be more titanic in Downing Street or the Oval Office?

    Will they even notice in the Oval Office?
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    Does the POTUS usually address Parliament during State visits?

    Reagan, George W Bush and Obama have all had State visits to the UK and both Reagan and Obama addressed the joint Houses of Parliament during those visits. GW did not.

    Bill Clinton has also addressed the joint Houses but his was not a State visit.
    Therefore Bercow is way out of line.
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    Asking for a friend.

    Friend has a date this evening, friend is also editing a website about betting on politics, and then John Bercow does this, should my friend leave his phone at home tonight?

    Does the friend think they will get lucky?
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    Evening, PB Social Justice Warriors!

    Does you think:

    a) Trump is more sexist than Islam?
    b) Islam is more sexist than Trump?
    c) Trump and Islam are just as sexist as each other?
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    FPT but on topic:

    I get that an invitation to address the House of Commons is, by definition, one for the House of Commons (and that an invitation to address both Houses is by extension partly one for the House of Commons and one that it can withdraw from unilaterally). I get that the Speaker speaks for the House of Commons and so can refuse the invitation on the House of Commons' behalf.

    But can't he be overridden by a vote among MPs if they so choose?

    Could some constitutional expert opine?

    I have no idea. He is after all elected by the Commons so I would assume he answerable to them.

    But he is also only Speaker for the Commons. I assume his power doesn't extend to the whole of Parliament. Moreover whilst I detest Trump I would be concerned about the Speaker denying the right to address British MPs to the position of the President. It is rather like the old adage that you salute the rank not the person.
    Hence my question upthread on the past history of PsOTUS addressing Parliament...
    Much of this problem may be placed at the PM's door. The unseemly haste to fall over themselves to offer a full state visit within days of Trump taking office has come home to roost. It placed the Queen in a very ugly position and offered the governments opponents boundless opportunities.

    Speaker Bercow has emphasized the independence of the Commons over the executive just as in the past his predecessors did over monarchy.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Barnesian said:

    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:

    They don't usually address the Commons from within the Commons though ;)
    Exactly.

    The Speaker isn't there to parrot the position of the government but to be the Commons man/woman and to uphold the rights, duties and responsibilities of the role developed down the centuries and that includes invitations within the remit of The Palace of Westminster authorities.
    Quite right. It's not as if May has invited Trump to address Parliament - only to sleep in the Queen's pad and ride in a golden coach.

    EDIT - in front of a million people with their backs turned.
    My back will not be turned, but I will be booing and waving a large Mexican flag.
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    Does the POTUS usually address Parliament during State visits?

    Reagan, George W Bush and Obama have all had State visits to the UK and both Reagan and Obama addressed the joint Houses of Parliament during those visits. GW did not.

    Bill Clinton has also addressed the joint Houses but his was not a State visit.
    Therefore Bercow is way out of line.
    Oh and on the same subject, the only two Presidents since WW2 not to meet the monarch are Kennedy and Carter.
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    Mr. 86, quite. The hypocrisy of Bercow is not surprising, but it remains immense.

    Xi Jinping's busy building up China's already gargantuan military forces and has committed a massive land grab in the South China Sea. There's no political freedom, those who speak up often disappear. China is less free and fair than America in just about every way.

    But there we are.
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    Asking for a friend.

    Friend has a date this evening, friend is also editing a website about betting on politics, and then John Bercow does this, should my friend leave his phone at home tonight?

    Tell your friend from me, good luck on his date and that his phone should remain off.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Will the rage be more titanic in Downing Street or the Oval Office?

    The risk must be that they tell Trump that May is absolutely furious, and Trump will say something that binds her even more closely to him.
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    Does the POTUS usually address Parliament during State visits?

    Reagan, George W Bush and Obama have all had State visits to the UK and both Reagan and Obama addressed the joint Houses of Parliament during those visits. GW did not.

    Bill Clinton has also addressed the joint Houses but his was not a State visit.
    Therefore Bercow is way out of line.
    Oh and on the same subject, the only two Presidents since WW2 not to meet the monarch are Kennedy and Carter.
    Well, Kennedy didn't last a full term, unfortunately!

    Is Carter a closet "republican"? :lol:
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    Mr. W, the independence of the Commons? Didn't half the House (Labour and SNP) applaud whilst the Conservative half was silent?

    And why's Xi Jinping alright but not Trump?
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    JackW said:

    FPT but on topic:

    I get that an invitation to address the House of Commons is, by definition, one for the House of Commons (and that an invitation to address both Houses is by extension partly one for the House of Commons and one that it can withdraw from unilaterally). I get that the Speaker speaks for the House of Commons and so can refuse the invitation on the House of Commons' behalf.

    But can't he be overridden by a vote among MPs if they so choose?

    Could some constitutional expert opine?

    I have no idea. He is after all elected by the Commons so I would assume he answerable to them.

    But he is also only Speaker for the Commons. I assume his power doesn't extend to the whole of Parliament. Moreover whilst I detest Trump I would be concerned about the Speaker denying the right to address British MPs to the position of the President. It is rather like the old adage that you salute the rank not the person.
    Hence my question upthread on the past history of PsOTUS addressing Parliament...
    Much of this problem may be placed at the PM's door. The unseemly haste to fall over themselves to offer a full state visit within days of Trump taking office has come home to roost. It placed the Queen in a very ugly position and offered the governments opponents boundless opportunities.

    Speaker Bercow has emphasized the independence of the Commons over the executive just as in the past his predecessors did over monarchy.
    The question is whether he has the right to do so. If his powers do not extend beyond the doors of the Commons then he is in no position to dictate whether or not the US President can address the joint Houses. The best he can do is stop it happening within the Chamber - which was never going to happen anyway.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Does the POTUS usually address Parliament during State visits?

    Reagan, George W Bush and Obama have all had State visits to the UK and both Reagan and Obama addressed the joint Houses of Parliament during those visits. GW did not.

    Bill Clinton has also addressed the joint Houses but his was not a State visit.
    Therefore Bercow is way out of line.
    Oh and on the same subject, the only two Presidents since WW2 not to meet the monarch are Kennedy and Carter.
    Presumably Kennedy did not survive long enough, Carter was shortchanged by the extensive Silver jubilee celebrations.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,817
    What happens if Donald decides to ignore Speaker B and come to Parliament anyway?

    Would the Sergeant At Arms take him down? :open_mouth:
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    JackW said:

    Much of this problem may be placed at the PM's door. The unseemly haste to fall over themselves to offer a full state visit within days of Trump taking office has come home to roost. It placed the Queen in a very ugly position and offered the governments opponents boundless opportunities.

    Speaker Bercow has emphasized the independence of the Commons over the executive just as in the past his predecessors did over monarchy.

    The key to why this is unacceptable behaviour by Bercow is contained in your phrase "offered the government's opponents boundless opportunities."

    It's up to the government's opponents to avail themselves of such opportunities. Someone who is supposed to be neutral is, or should be, by definition not one of the government's opponents.
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    Barnesian said:

    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    JackW said:

    If a Speaker can refuse the Monarch in the chamber of the Commons he may certainly refuse the President of a former colony ....

    :smiley:

    They don't usually address the Commons from within the Commons though ;)
    Exactly.

    The Speaker isn't there to parrot the position of the government but to be the Commons man/woman and to uphold the rights, duties and responsibilities of the role developed down the centuries and that includes invitations within the remit of The Palace of Westminster authorities.
    Quite right. It's not as if May has invited Trump to address Parliament - only to sleep in the Queen's pad and ride in a golden coach.

    EDIT - in front of a million people with their backs turned.
    My back will not be turned, but I will be booing and waving a large Mexican flag.
    Speaking of sexism:

    http://www.insightcrime.org/news-analysis/why-does-latin-america-have-the-world-s-highest-female-murder-rates
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    Asking for a friend.

    Friend has a date this evening, friend is also editing a website about betting on politics, and then John Bercow does this, should my friend leave his phone at home tonight?

    Friend show extol the virtues of AV to their date.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,609

    Incoming Bercow related Wikileaks..5-4-3-2-1..

    Quite.
    Here's a warning to delete your email archive from others in a similar position:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/trumps-enemies-list/513449/
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Will just convince Trump that Amexit was the right thing to do....
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    JackW said:

    FPT but on topic:

    I get that an invitation to address the House of Commons is, by definition, one for the House of Commons (and that an invitation to address both Houses is by extension partly one for the House of Commons and one that it can withdraw from unilaterally). I get that the Speaker speaks for the House of Commons and so can refuse the invitation on the House of Commons' behalf.

    But can't he be overridden by a vote among MPs if they so choose?

    Could some constitutional expert opine?

    I have no idea. He is after all elected by the Commons so I would assume he answerable to them.

    But he is also only Speaker for the Commons. I assume his power doesn't extend to the whole of Parliament. Moreover whilst I detest Trump I would be concerned about the Speaker denying the right to address British MPs to the position of the President. It is rather like the old adage that you salute the rank not the person.
    Hence my question upthread on the past history of PsOTUS addressing Parliament...
    Much of this problem may be placed at the PM's door. The unseemly haste to fall over themselves to offer a full state visit within days of Trump taking office has come home to roost. It placed the Queen in a very ugly position and offered the governments opponents boundless opportunities.

    Speaker Bercow has emphasized the independence of the Commons over the executive just as in the past his predecessors did over monarchy.
    Both GW Bush and Obama met the Queen earlier in their tenures than Trump is likely to - although neither of those were State visits.
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