Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling Matters podcasts on Northern Ireland As

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited March 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s PB/Polling Matters podcasts on Northern Ireland Assembly election fallout, Labour leadership polling, and budget reaction

This week’s episode of the PB/Polling Matters podcast is split into two parts:

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    First!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    FPT: MikeL makes a decent point. Will self employed people earning 50k a year or w/e really allow Corbyn in !

    A £240 hike to NI will be the least of their worries :p
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    The bit posters appear to be missing from yesterday:

    https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/839505906891116544
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: MikeL makes a decent point. Will self employed people earning 50k a year or w/e really allow Corbyn in !

    A £240 hike to NI will be the least of their worries :p

    At most they will vote UKIP and given the size of the Tory lead that would do little to help Corbyn
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: MikeL makes a decent point. Will self employed people earning 50k a year or w/e really allow Corbyn in !

    A £240 hike to NI will be the least of their worries :p

    Yeah if you don't like the NI rise then Corbyn is the last person you want to vote for.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    edited March 2017
    Google and Facebook pay their dues but plumbers, builders and white van man are shirkers and aren't paying their way..

    Nice one Phil!

    Of course this won't make any difference in the short or medium term as there's no opposition but it does tell us who this government's priorities are with...
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: MikeL makes a decent point. Will self employed people earning 50k a year or w/e really allow Corbyn in !

    A £240 hike to NI will be the least of their worries :p

    At most they will vote UKIP and given the size of the Tory lead that would do little to help Corbyn
    Might help Ed Miliband hold his seat :D
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    BudG said:

    GIN1138 said:

    fitalass said:

    Just seen tomorrows front pages, OUCH!

    I can actually see some merit in putting up NI for the self-employed and I don't really see why this government should be bound by the manifesto that the last government was elected on.
    You make a very good argument for a General Election when a PM resigns.

    If T May did not want to honour the manifesto commitments that the Conservatives were elected upon (even though she was part of the shadow cabinet which presumably agreed to them) then she should have some parked an election and run on a revised manifesto.

    Except if Cameron had not wanted to honour the manifesto commitments he would not have needed to get a new mandate Sometimes, even if a policy was a good idea when proposed, it may not be a good idea later through no fault of the proposer (not that I am saying that is the case here). Governments need and should be permitted sone leeway, and they are not legally bound.

    The consequences are electoral - if you break pledge without adequate explanations, or due to incompetence, you will eventually be made to suffer for it, not least when people don't believe you next time. That seems an appropriate reaction to changing policy, rather than the idea a new pm needs to fight on a new manifesto, particularly as it might be only marginally different.
    glw said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: MikeL makes a decent point. Will self employed people earning 50k a year or w/e really allow Corbyn in !

    A £240 hike to NI will be the least of their worries :p

    Yeah if you don't like the NI rise then Corbyn is the last person you want to vote for.
    Logically. People react in strange ways.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    The bit posters appear to be missing from yesterday:

    It will make it harder for them to blame EU intransigence for even tougher budgetary measures further down the road. They've taken on the mantle of being tax raisers by choice.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624
    I dread to think what lessons may be learned from the fallout in NI.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    kle4 said:

    I dread to think what lessons may be learned from the fallout in NI.

    Choose your language more carefully when deriding an important sector of the economy, many of whom are your own constituency? Honour manifesto commitments? ;)
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: MikeL makes a decent point. Will self employed people earning 50k a year or w/e really allow Corbyn in !

    A £240 hike to NI will be the least of their worries :p

    At most they will vote UKIP and given the size of the Tory lead that would do little to help Corbyn
    Might help Ed Miliband hold his seat :D
    I am sure he will be grateful to Hammond
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Clearly it was a masterstroke by Hammond to help secure Corbyn's position... :smiley:
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    SeanT said:

    Betting News from France. Where I am doing a mini publicity tour for the new book

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/839610472278130688

    I've been asking Le tout Paris. And the opinion is that Le Pen is terrifying, but almost certainly can't win, Fillon is almost finished, Juppe would have had a great chance but it's too late, and everyone will end up voting for Macron, even though everyone knows he's gay and is living with a well known French CEO. So Macron it is. Unless the Russians can really nail that gay thing.

    Ifop today has slightly more Fillon voters backing Le Pen than Macron, the latter should win but if Le Pen wins round 1 and takes a clear majority of Fillon voters in round 2 it could be interesting
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    @SeanT Are you concerned about the extra NI you're going to have to pay ?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    nunu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    nunu said:

    GIN1138 said:

    fitalass said:

    Just seen tomorrows front pages, OUCH!



    But what really did stick in the throat was Hammond's inference that the self-employed are spongers and have been fiddling the system while those brave workers in the private sector and the multi-national corporations have been paying their dues...

    .
    What did he say about self employed during the speech? Did he really infer that self-employed are spongers. I'd be suprised.
    Can't remember the exact phraseology but the inference was that public and self-employed take out equal amounts from the State but the self employed haven't been paying their way.
    oh OK. Well that's nowhere near true. Thats why likes of Uber, Amazon etc love people being on self employed contracts so much cheaper for them in terms of benefits etc.
    You're talking about in work benefits (like SSP) that the employer has to pay for. Not state benefits that the state pays for. If a self employed person gets less in work benefits that may reduce the costs on the employer* but unless that employer is the state it doesn't reduce the cost to the Treasury.

    * It doesn't, it's just the employee is the employer. Regular employers have to provision for in work benefit costs for their employees just the same. If an employee becomes sick and has to be paid SSP that money doesn't arise from thin air.
  • Options
    ipfreelyipfreely Posts: 29
    Has anyone see the Indian Wells draw? Djkokovic faces (probably) Edmund, then Del Potro, then Kyrgios or Zverev, then Federer or Nadal, then Nishikori, Cilic, etc., then finally Murray or Wawrinka etc.

    Seems like he should be laid harder than a discount prostitute, no? Certainly not the 5s or so to win the thing on Betfair.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,894
    edited March 2017
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Betting News from France. Where I am doing a mini publicity tour for the new book

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/839610472278130688

    I've been asking Le tout Paris. And the opinion is that Le Pen is terrifying, but almost certainly can't win, Fillon is almost finished, Juppe would have had a great chance but it's too late, and everyone will end up voting for Macron, even though everyone knows he's gay and is living with a well known French CEO. So Macron it is. Unless the Russians can really nail that gay thing.

    Ifop today has slightly more Fillon voters backing Le Pen than Macron, the latter should win but if Le Pen wins round 1 and takes a clear majority of Fillon voters in round 2 it could be interesting
    Anyone like to take a stab at the betting odds if charges against Fillon are dropped next Wednesday?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    We could just do what France does and not pay :smiley:
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    RobD said:

    We could just do what France does and not pay :smiley:
    Et qui payer pour le mur ?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    As predicted by Mr Daisley a fortnight ago:

    These strange behaviours, and his undisguised broadside against the Scottish Government’s initial stance on business rates, might lead the more suspicious to wonder if he’s on manoeuvres. Nicola Sturgeon’s grip on power is still firm but not as iron-tight as it was mere months ago. The First Minister has antsy activists to placate, the hardliners who dominate her party’s membership rolls and don’t want a second independence referendum tomorrow so much as a unilateral declaration of independence yesterday. How much longer can she hold them at bay? At what point do the rock star rallies and the smiley selfies begin to lose their lustre? The impatient Mr Salmond would surely be more precipitous in the timing of a referendum do-over.

    https://stephendaisley.com/2017/02/25/salmonds-national-party/
  • Options
    peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,875
    edited March 2017
    Was today the day the Tories lost the 2020 GE by:

    Failing to attract a single voter with their budget proposals and ....

    losing hundreds of thousands of previously solid Tory voters by breaking election promises?

    Probably the most inept Budget Statement in living memory - and I say that as a Tory!
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
  • Options
    ipfreelyipfreely Posts: 29
    "losing hundreds of thousands of previously solid Tory voters by breaking election promises?"

    To Corbyn?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572

    Was today the day the Tories lost the 2020 GE

    No. Unless there are other "bad budgets" in 2017, 2018 and 2019.....

    Of course the 83% on PAYE will see the impacts of higher personal allowances on lower tax take.....
  • Options
    ipfreely said:

    "losing hundreds of thousands of previously solid Tory voters by breaking election promises?"

    To Corbyn?

    Corbyn will be gone within 18 months.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572

    ipfreely said:

    "losing hundreds of thousands of previously solid Tory voters by breaking election promises?"

    To Corbyn?

    Corbyn will be gone within 18 months.

    After the most inept Budget Statement in living memory?

    Surely not.....
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
  • Options

    ***** Betting Post *****

    So disappointed am I by today's simply awful anti-entrepreneurial budget, that I've wagered significantly on Labour winning the most seats at the next GE.
    The disparity between the odds on offer is surprising. While the likes of Paddy Power, Marathon, etc go 4.0, those nice folk at Bet365 price this bet at 5.5, aka 9/2.
    I feel sure that sometime over the next 3 yrs and 2 months,Labour's odds will be a great deal shorter than this. Indeed, the electorate's relief were they to choose a centre-left leader to replace Corbyn should in my view put them within spitting distance of the Tories.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572


    ***** Betting Post *****

    So disappointed am I by today's simply awful anti-entrepreneurial budget, that I've wagered significantly on Labour winning the most seats at the next GE.
    The disparity between the odds on offer is surprising. While the likes of Paddy Power, Marathon, etc go 4.0, those nice folk at Bet365 price this bet at 5.5, aka 9/2.
    I feel sure that sometime over the next 3 yrs and 2 months,Labour's odds will be a great deal shorter than this. Indeed, the electorate's relief were they to choose a centre-left leader to replace Corbyn should in my view put them within spitting distance of the Tories.

    It's probably a bit early (or late depending on where you are) - but isn't 5.5 aka 11/2?

    On the point of substance, barring black swans, yes, Labour's odds are likely to shorten substantially between now and 2020 - when they replace Corbyn, for example, they're almost guaranteed a bounce - even if the selectorate ultimately pick someone as useless....
  • Options
    scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Carlotta

    Except that anyone who heard the LBC Salmond phone in as I did) would laugh at the Herald's ridiculous interpretation.

    Salmond and Sturgeon are and have been for thirteen years a umbilical double act. Clowns like ex Tory press officer Daisley have no idea whatsoever about the SNP and nor does the current Tory press office as represented by you Carlotta.

    Salmond is one of the few leaders who left office with astronomical positive approval ratings (plus 35 on MORI). He is the class act of post war Scottish politics and one of the top three of British politics.

    What you should take from Salmond's recent statements is clear. Unless Theresa May agrees to Sturgeon's compromise proposal then Sturgeon will call Indy Ref 2 at the SNP Conference next weekend.

    If May turns it down the the SNP will win big and the Scottish Tories will be sitting ducks. If she accepts it then the SNP have an even money chance of winning the big prize.

    Life is about to get very interesting.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    YOU could almost hear the gnashing of teeth from the SNP benches at Westminster.

    You could imagine the anguished howls as they realised: “They’ve only given us more money to spend — those evil Tory blighters.”


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/695074/you-could-almost-hear-the-gnashing-of-teeth-from-the-snp-benches-at-westminster-on-budget-day/
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    edited March 2017
    scotslass said:

    Unless Theresa May agrees to Sturgeon's compromise proposal then Sturgeon will call Indy Ref 2 at the SNP Conference next weekend.

    But Sturgeon can't "call Indy Ref2" - she's got to ask May for a Section 30 order. May will say, "yes, but only once BREXIT is negotiated" - which is what most Scots want.
  • Options


    ***** Betting Post *****

    So disappointed am I by today's simply awful anti-entrepreneurial budget, that I've wagered significantly on Labour winning the most seats at the next GE.
    The disparity between the odds on offer is surprising. While the likes of Paddy Power, Marathon, etc go 4.0, those nice folk at Bet365 price this bet at 5.5, aka 9/2.
    I feel sure that sometime over the next 3 yrs and 2 months,Labour's odds will be a great deal shorter than this. Indeed, the electorate's relief were they to choose a centre-left leader to replace Corbyn should in my view put them within spitting distance of the Tories.

    It's probably a bit early (or late depending on where you are) - but isn't 5.5 aka 11/2?

    On the point of substance, barring black swans, yes, Labour's odds are likely to shorten substantially between now and 2020 - when they replace Corbyn, for example, they're almost guaranteed a bounce - even if the selectorate ultimately pick someone as useless....
    NO! 5.5 is 9/2 in "old money" .... you don't know much about betting do you?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    edited March 2017


    ***** Betting Post *****

    So disappointed am I by today's simply awful anti-entrepreneurial budget, that I've wagered significantly on Labour winning the most seats at the next GE.
    The disparity between the odds on offer is surprising. While the likes of Paddy Power, Marathon, etc go 4.0, those nice folk at Bet365 price this bet at 5.5, aka 9/2.
    I feel sure that sometime over the next 3 yrs and 2 months,Labour's odds will be a great deal shorter than this. Indeed, the electorate's relief were they to choose a centre-left leader to replace Corbyn should in my view put them within spitting distance of the Tories.

    It's probably a bit early (or late depending on where you are) - but isn't 5.5 aka 11/2?

    On the point of substance, barring black swans, yes, Labour's odds are likely to shorten substantially between now and 2020 - when they replace Corbyn, for example, they're almost guaranteed a bounce - even if the selectorate ultimately pick someone as useless....
    NO! 5.5 is 9/2 in "old money" ....
    Told you it was a bit late.....
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    Was today the day the Tories lost the 2020 GE by:

    Failing to attract a single voter with their budget proposals and ....

    losing hundreds of thousands of previously solid Tory voters by breaking election promises?

    Probably the most inept Budget Statement in living memory - and I say that as a Tory!

    A little overdone, surely? All parties break election promises to some degree, if that lost, rather than weakened, such votes so decisively, there'd be no one it's any voters left. And its only one promise.

    As for most inept, so far the NI detail is the only detail that seems to have gained any traction, so even if it is bad and is u-turned, or bad but kept, certainly not the most inept total budget.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,624

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    No there isn't (while ther SNP support remained so high it was always the case they would clamour for another one at some point). The question is would they win. I think yes, but that is not certain no matter how much they and you act like it is (not least because they acted certain they'd win last time too - they are in a stronger position now, but it is still not guaranteed even though I agree they are favourites).
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    kle4 said:

    Was today the day the Tories lost the 2020 GE by:

    Failing to attract a single voter with their budget proposals and ....

    losing hundreds of thousands of previously solid Tory voters by breaking election promises?

    Probably the most inept Budget Statement in living memory - and I say that as a Tory!

    A little overdone, surely? All parties break election promises to some degree, if that lost, rather than weakened, such votes so decisively, there'd be no one it's any voters left. And its only one promise.

    As for most inept, so far the NI detail is the only detail that seems to have gained any traction, so even if it is bad and is u-turned, or bad but kept, certainly not the most inept total budget.
    I suspect a little venting by someone not on PAYE.....as to whether it's a dud budget, as SO observed yesterday, budgets praised on the day usually fall apart the day after, so if this one "fell apart" on the day, it may turn out alright in the end....
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Hard to tell about the impact of the NIC row, suggest this will be annoying to many grassroots supporters at a time when party discipline needs to be tight re BREXIT, defeat in the Lords has put some tricky issues up for discussion and of course the investigation into Thanet South and Torbay also culminates around April/May.

    Its a pretty bland budget but when there would have been little thanks for a giveaway it definitely indicates no GE for this year (always unlikely in my opinion). "spreadsheet" Hammond tends to reflect this, his time at MOD was on numbers and budget nudges.
    All in all, I think it shows the Autumn Budget process has already begun (ie Spring one just minor amendments....until the NIC row) - whether Hammond has built a fanbase remains to be seen, he's different from his predecessor alright.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    The absolute worst case scenario for a party which exists solely to foster separation is for devolution to be a success. The powers available within the union can never be those they need. It must always be someone else’s fault. Independence must always be the answer. Improving the lives of the people of Scotland will always play second fiddle to the all-encompassing goal of achieving independence.

    Whilst the nationalist hardcore will no doubt appreciate such an approach, the rest of us just wish we had a government more interested in acting than agitating.


    https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/ways-and-means/amp/
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    Within that window, er I guess of when the, the sort of outline of a UK deal, becomes clear on the UK exiting the EU, I think would be the common sense time for, Scotland to have that choice, if that is the road we choose to go down.”

    Is that a "yes" hen?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/nicola-sturgeon-autumn-2018-common-sense-time-second-independence/
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    The absolute worst case scenario for a party which exists solely to foster separation is for devolution to be a success. The powers available within the union can never be those they need. It must always be someone else’s fault. Independence must always be the answer. Improving the lives of the people of Scotland will always play second fiddle to the all-encompassing goal of achieving independence.

    Whilst the nationalist hardcore will no doubt appreciate such an approach, the rest of us just wish we had a government more interested in acting than agitating.


    https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/ways-and-means/amp/

    Sort of sounds like the Tory Eurosceptic right who along with the Daily Mail railed against the European Commisson, MEPs and ECJ on just about everything and then realised that having won the referendum they had to find someone else to blame - I recall the look of shock on Gove and Johnson's faces on the morning after the referendum vote.....
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    The absolute worst case scenario for a party which exists solely to foster separation is for devolution to be a success. The powers available within the union can never be those they need. It must always be someone else’s fault. Independence must always be the answer. Improving the lives of the people of Scotland will always play second fiddle to the all-encompassing goal of achieving independence.

    Whilst the nationalist hardcore will no doubt appreciate such an approach, the rest of us just wish we had a government more interested in acting than agitating.


    https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/ways-and-means/amp/

    Sort of sounds like the Tory Eurosceptic right who along with the Daily Mail railed against the European Commisson, MEPs and ECJ on just about everything and then realised that having won the referendum they had to find someone else to blame - I recall the look of shock on Gove and Johnson's faces on the morning after the referendum vote.....
    I don't think it was shock. It was just after Cameron announced he was going so they didn't want to appear triumphant.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    RobD said:

    The absolute worst case scenario for a party which exists solely to foster separation is for devolution to be a success. The powers available within the union can never be those they need. It must always be someone else’s fault. Independence must always be the answer. Improving the lives of the people of Scotland will always play second fiddle to the all-encompassing goal of achieving independence.

    Whilst the nationalist hardcore will no doubt appreciate such an approach, the rest of us just wish we had a government more interested in acting than agitating.


    https://whytepaper.wordpress.com/2017/03/07/ways-and-means/amp/

    Sort of sounds like the Tory Eurosceptic right who along with the Daily Mail railed against the European Commisson, MEPs and ECJ on just about everything and then realised that having won the referendum they had to find someone else to blame - I recall the look of shock on Gove and Johnson's faces on the morning after the referendum vote.....
    I don't think it was shock. It was just after Cameron announced he was going so they didn't want to appear triumphant.
    They can't win - looking cheerful would have been "gloating" over the demise one of them had counted as a friend - looking somber and it's "they didn't want to win". They're politicians, of course they wanted to win....
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    It's a snub I tell ye! A snub!

    Nicola Sturgeon's interview was recorded for the BBC documentary Brexit:Britain's Biggest Deal - to be broadcast on BBC Two at 21:00 and on BBC Two Scotland at 23:15 on Thursday.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39213767
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    It's a snub I tell ye! A snub!

    Nicola Sturgeon's interview was recorded for the BBC documentary Brexit:Britain's Biggest Deal - to be broadcast on BBC Two at 21:00 and on BBC Two Scotland at 23:15 on Thursday.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39213767

    Why is it on so late? :D
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    RobD said:

    It's a snub I tell ye! A snub!

    Nicola Sturgeon's interview was recorded for the BBC documentary Brexit:Britain's Biggest Deal - to be broadcast on BBC Two at 21:00 and on BBC Two Scotland at 23:15 on Thursday.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39213767

    Why is it on so late? :D
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08htzz9 Is in the 21.00 slot.....
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    It's a snub I tell ye! A snub!

    Nicola Sturgeon's interview was recorded for the BBC documentary Brexit:Britain's Biggest Deal - to be broadcast on BBC Two at 21:00 and on BBC Two Scotland at 23:15 on Thursday.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39213767

    Why is it on so late? :D
    So President Trump can watch it live whilst taking tea with the Russian ambassador ....
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    YOU could almost hear the gnashing of teeth from the SNP benches at Westminster.

    You could imagine the anguished howls as they realised: “They’ve only given us more money to spend — those evil Tory blighters.”


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/695074/you-could-almost-hear-the-gnashing-of-teeth-from-the-snp-benches-at-westminster-on-budget-day/

    LOL, you think we are stupid , take away £3B with left hand and give £300M with right hand and try to pretend it is an increase. Only a Tory could try to defend economics like that.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited March 2017

    Hard to tell about the impact of the NIC row, suggest this will be annoying to many grassroots supporters at a time when party discipline needs to be tight re BREXIT, defeat in the Lords has put some tricky issues up for discussion and of course the investigation into Thanet South and Torbay also culminates around April/May.

    Its a pretty bland budget but when there would have been little thanks for a giveaway it definitely indicates no GE for this year (always unlikely in my opinion). "spreadsheet" Hammond tends to reflect this, his time at MOD was on numbers and budget nudges.
    All in all, I think it shows the Autumn Budget process has already begun (ie Spring one just minor amendments....until the NIC row) - whether Hammond has built a fanbase remains to be seen, he's different from his predecessor alright.

    There might be another problem: backbench disenchantment with Theresa May, When she entered Number 10, there seemed to be a feeling that "we've got our party back". That after the Cameroon interlopers had left the scene, power had returned to someone (and her team) who instinctively understood middle England or even middle Britain: the strivers, investors and entrepreneurs. Now that is in doubt. In some ways this is worse than Osborne's pasty tax omnishambles budget because there was the sense then that Osborne had foolishly accepted Treasury recommendations without realising they hit small-c conservative supporters. Hammond thought about this. The PM needs to get round the Commons tea-rooms.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    malcolmg said:

    YOU could almost hear the gnashing of teeth from the SNP benches at Westminster.

    You could imagine the anguished howls as they realised: “They’ve only given us more money to spend — those evil Tory blighters.”


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/695074/you-could-almost-hear-the-gnashing-of-teeth-from-the-snp-benches-at-westminster-on-budget-day/

    LOL, you think we are stupid.
    Those who argued and believed "oil is just a bonus", yes.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    Yes with 6 inch nails as well
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    malcolmg said:

    YOU could almost hear the gnashing of teeth from the SNP benches at Westminster.

    You could imagine the anguished howls as they realised: “They’ve only given us more money to spend — those evil Tory blighters.”


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/695074/you-could-almost-hear-the-gnashing-of-teeth-from-the-snp-benches-at-westminster-on-budget-day/

    LOL, you think we are stupid.
    Those who argued and believed "oil is just a bonus", yes.
    We have never had a penny from oil so anything would indeed be a bonus.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited March 2017
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    YOU could almost hear the gnashing of teeth from the SNP benches at Westminster.

    You could imagine the anguished howls as they realised: “They’ve only given us more money to spend — those evil Tory blighters.”


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/695074/you-could-almost-hear-the-gnashing-of-teeth-from-the-snp-benches-at-westminster-on-budget-day/

    LOL, you think we are stupid.
    Those who argued and believed "oil is just a bonus", yes.
    We have never had a penny from oil so anything would indeed be a bonus.
    How much oil is there in Ayrshire ? " We " , my arse.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Hard to tell about the impact of the NIC row, suggest this will be annoying to many grassroots supporters at a time when party discipline needs to be tight re BREXIT, defeat in the Lords has put some tricky issues up for discussion and of course the investigation into Thanet South and Torbay also culminates around April/May.

    Its a pretty bland budget but when there would have been little thanks for a giveaway it definitely indicates no GE for this year (always unlikely in my opinion). "spreadsheet" Hammond tends to reflect this, his time at MOD was on numbers and budget nudges.
    All in all, I think it shows the Autumn Budget process has already begun (ie Spring one just minor amendments....until the NIC row) - whether Hammond has built a fanbase remains to be seen, he's different from his predecessor alright.

    There might be another problem: backbench disenchantment with Theresa May, When she entered Number 10, there seemed to be a feeling that "we've got our party back". That after the Cameroon interlopers had left the scene, power had returned to someone (and her team) who instinctively understood middle England or even middle Britain: the strivers, investors and entrepreneurs. Now that is in doubt. In some ways this is worse than Osborne's pasty tax omnishambles budget because there was the sense then that Osborne had foolishly accepted Treasury recommendations without realising they hit small-c conservative supporters. Hammond thought about this. The PM needs to get round the Commons tea-rooms.
    The Brexit vote always meant a price to be paid at some point - Con back-benchers must surely have realised this. The modest rise in NI is a smallish price but I'm sure there will be more to come.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,880
    Re. the self-employed

    I cannot see the self-employed getting much sympathy, especially when they use phrases to describe the measures such as 'deeply offensive', as someone did on the radio this morning.

    It's a test for May and Hammond - will they bottle it given the somewhat negative headlines?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    Was today the day the Tories lost the 2020 GE by:

    Failing to attract a single voter with their budget proposals and ....

    losing hundreds of thousands of previously solid Tory voters by breaking election promises?

    Probably the most inept Budget Statement in living memory - and I say that as a Tory!

    @ChrisA made the very valid point that NI for public sector workers was increased in last years budget (in an attempt to address the yawning deficit in their pension schemes). It really does not seem to have done them that much harm. Of course a tax increase that directly affects the fourth estate will get more attention, at least for a while.

    I thought the budget yesterday was the measure of the man. Dull and steady, spreadsheet Phil. He had a lot of additional money to play with given that the deficit was coming in below Osborne's target let alone his own target in November.

    And he chose to spend the bare minimum of it on the points of greatest pressure. The OBR also scaled back future growth (beyond this year thankfully) to very cautious levels. That was probably sensible given the uncertainties we face but it was hardly exciting and it meant much of the improvement in public finances stayed under the table. As you might expect at this point in the electoral cycle really.
  • Options
    Those PBers who believe I've been over critical here of Hammond's bashing of the self-employed, dividend earning, largely Tory voting elements in our society, may wish to reserve judgement by awaiting the results of polls over the forthcoming weeks and months, including not least the May local elections in order to gauge the electoral damage Hammond's budget has actually done to the Blue Team.
    George Osborne certainly had his faults but his intuitive political gut instinct would have stopped him far short from presenting a budget on anything remotely on the scale of the Tory-bashing version we heard yesterday.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    hmmm

    what happens if the demographics work the same as everywhere else ie the older you get the less radical you become ? So all those young active people start to worry more about the security of their pensions and social care and gradually shift their views.

  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    felix said:

    Hard to tell about the impact of the NIC row, suggest this will be annoying to many grassroots supporters at a time when party discipline needs to be tight re BREXIT, defeat in the Lords has put some tricky issues up for discussion and of course the investigation into Thanet South and Torbay also culminates around April/May.

    Its a pretty bland budget but when there would have been little thanks for a giveaway it definitely indicates no GE for this year (always unlikely in my opinion). "spreadsheet" Hammond tends to reflect this, his time at MOD was on numbers and budget nudges.
    All in all, I think it shows the Autumn Budget process has already begun (ie Spring one just minor amendments....until the NIC row) - whether Hammond has built a fanbase remains to be seen, he's different from his predecessor alright.

    There might be another problem: backbench disenchantment with Theresa May, When she entered Number 10, there seemed to be a feeling that "we've got our party back". That after the Cameroon interlopers had left the scene, power had returned to someone (and her team) who instinctively understood middle England or even middle Britain: the strivers, investors and entrepreneurs. Now that is in doubt. In some ways this is worse than Osborne's pasty tax omnishambles budget because there was the sense then that Osborne had foolishly accepted Treasury recommendations without realising they hit small-c conservative supporters. Hammond thought about this. The PM needs to get round the Commons tea-rooms.
    The Brexit vote always meant a price to be paid at some point - Con back-benchers must surely have realised this. The modest rise in NI is a smallish price but I'm sure there will be more to come.
    It is the mood music rather than the change itself, especially as it follows some missteps over whipping arrangements. Meet the new PM: same as the old PM.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Those PBers who believe I've been over critical here of Hammond's bashing of the self-employed, dividend earning, largely Tory voting elements in our society, may wish to reserve judgement by awaiting the results of polls over the forthcoming weeks and months, including not least the May local elections in order to gauge the electoral damage Hammond's budget has actually done to the Blue Team.
    George Osborne certainly had his faults but his intuitive political gut instinct would have stopped him far short from presenting a budget on anything remotely on the scale of the Tory-bashing version we heard yesterday.

    So Hammond corrects a Labour screw up in the NI system and we should all worry ? Dont think so. The 10% underpayment in NI needs to be corrected.
  • Options
    timmotimmo Posts: 1,469

    Hard to tell about the impact of the NIC row, suggest this will be annoying to many grassroots supporters at a time when party discipline needs to be tight re BREXIT, defeat in the Lords has put some tricky issues up for discussion and of course the investigation into Thanet South and Torbay also culminates around April/May.

    Its a pretty bland budget but when there would have been little thanks for a giveaway it definitely indicates no GE for this year (always unlikely in my opinion). "spreadsheet" Hammond tends to reflect this, his time at MOD was on numbers and budget nudges.
    All in all, I think it shows the Autumn Budget process has already begun (ie Spring one just minor amendments....until the NIC row) - whether Hammond has built a fanbase remains to be seen, he's different from his predecessor alright.

    There might be another problem: backbench disenchantment with Theresa May, When she entered Number 10, there seemed to be a feeling that "we've got our party back". That after the Cameroon interlopers had left the scene, power had returned to someone (and her team) who instinctively understood middle England or even middle Britain: the strivers, investors and entrepreneurs. Now that is in doubt. In some ways this is worse than Osborne's pasty tax omnishambles budget because there was the sense then that Osborne had foolishly accepted Treasury recommendations without realising they hit small-c conservative supporters. Hammond thought about this. The PM needs to get round the Commons tea-rooms.
    I think she has played a blinder by setting Hammond up for a fall.
    The NIC furore is overdone and i say that as somebody who will be affected.
    The cut in the free dividend amount is more serious as this will affect owners of small businesses far more.
    Moreover they increased pensions for the self employed by £1800 yesterday. Why arent people talking about that?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Those PBers who believe I've been over critical here of Hammond's bashing of the self-employed, dividend earning, largely Tory voting elements in our society, may wish to reserve judgement by awaiting the results of polls over the forthcoming weeks and months, including not least the May local elections in order to gauge the electoral damage Hammond's budget has actually done to the Blue Team.
    George Osborne certainly had his faults but his intuitive political gut instinct would have stopped him far short from presenting a budget on anything remotely on the scale of the Tory-bashing version we heard yesterday.

    Au contraire. George Osborne might easily have blundered into this trap: remember omnishambles came about because Osborne had no instinctive grasp of what mattered to his supporters.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    Those PBers who believe I've been over critical here of Hammond's bashing of the self-employed, dividend earning, largely Tory voting elements in our society, may wish to reserve judgement by awaiting the results of polls over the forthcoming weeks and months, including not least the May local elections in order to gauge the electoral damage Hammond's budget has actually done to the Blue Team.
    George Osborne certainly had his faults but his intuitive political gut instinct would have stopped him far short from presenting a budget on anything remotely on the scale of the Tory-bashing version we heard yesterday.

    Really? During the Osborne years I lost all of my personal allowance, the proportion of my income subject to 40% increased substantially and I had to pay back all of my Child Benefit. Higher earners like me were thumped repeatedly to allow him to address the deficit. I apparently had the broadest shoulders or something.

    I had no real problem with that, it was necessary and the alternative would have been true austerity with completely unacceptable cuts in public spending, something Osborne largely avoided. But yesterday was a mere pinprick by comparison.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    DavidL said:

    Those PBers who believe I've been over critical here of Hammond's bashing of the self-employed, dividend earning, largely Tory voting elements in our society, may wish to reserve judgement by awaiting the results of polls over the forthcoming weeks and months, including not least the May local elections in order to gauge the electoral damage Hammond's budget has actually done to the Blue Team.
    George Osborne certainly had his faults but his intuitive political gut instinct would have stopped him far short from presenting a budget on anything remotely on the scale of the Tory-bashing version we heard yesterday.

    Really? During the Osborne years I lost all of my personal allowance, the proportion of my income subject to 40% increased substantially and I had to pay back all of my Child Benefit. Higher earners like me were thumped repeatedly to allow him to address the deficit. I apparently had the broadest shoulders or something.

    I had no real problem with that, it was necessary and the alternative would have been true austerity with completely unacceptable cuts in public spending, something Osborne largely avoided. But yesterday was a mere pinprick by comparison.
    quite
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    On that logic the Tories would have died out decades ago......but strangely enough, as people age, they change.....
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Re. the self-employed

    I cannot see the self-employed getting much sympathy, especially when they use phrases to describe the measures such as 'deeply offensive', as someone did on the radio this morning.

    It's a test for May and Hammond - will they bottle it given the somewhat negative headlines?

    The self employed never get much sympathy which is a shame, they're the country's wealth creators as Mrs T understood
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    YOU could almost hear the gnashing of teeth from the SNP benches at Westminster.

    You could imagine the anguished howls as they realised: “They’ve only given us more money to spend — those evil Tory blighters.”


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/695074/you-could-almost-hear-the-gnashing-of-teeth-from-the-snp-benches-at-westminster-on-budget-day/

    LOL, you think we are stupid.
    Those who argued and believed "oil is just a bonus", yes.
    We have never had a penny from oil so anything would indeed be a bonus.
    ALEX Salmond and other SNP ministers were wrong when they said oil would be a “bonus” not a basis for the Scottish economy after independence, a senior party figure has conceded.

    Andrew Wilson, who is leading an SNP review updating the case for independence, admitted North Sea income was “baked into” spending plans, rather than treated as a windfall.

    The mantra “oil is a bonus” was a key part of the Yes campaign in 2014, and was used to rebut criticism that an independent Scotland would be overly reliant on a volatile industry.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15137800.Salmond_was_wrong_on__oil_is_a_bonus__claim__SNP_review_chief_admits/
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    hmmm

    what happens if the demographics work the same as everywhere else ie the older you get the less radical you become ? So all those young active people start to worry more about the security of their pensions and social care and gradually shift their views.

    I always cite the example of the October 1974 general election. The Tories came third among 18-24 year olds. Move forward 41 years, this age cohort voted heavily Conservative and UKIP.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    McMao doesn't seem to actually understand NIC or this change on R4.

    It isn't a new tax, it is a rate change.
    The economy isn't weakening.
    It is progressive.

    Amazing that Labour are so high in the polls, tbh.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    DavidL said:

    Those PBers who believe I've been over critical here of Hammond's bashing of the self-employed, dividend earning, largely Tory voting elements in our society, may wish to reserve judgement by awaiting the results of polls over the forthcoming weeks and months, including not least the May local elections in order to gauge the electoral damage Hammond's budget has actually done to the Blue Team.
    George Osborne certainly had his faults but his intuitive political gut instinct would have stopped him far short from presenting a budget on anything remotely on the scale of the Tory-bashing version we heard yesterday.

    Really? During the Osborne years I lost all of my personal allowance, the proportion of my income subject to 40% increased substantially and I had to pay back all of my Child Benefit. Higher earners like me were thumped repeatedly to allow him to address the deficit. I apparently had the broadest shoulders or something.

    I had no real problem with that, it was necessary and the alternative would have been true austerity with completely unacceptable cuts in public spending, something Osborne largely avoided. But yesterday was a mere pinprick by comparison.
    Quite.

    Well said.

    This is silly columnists being martyrish.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Sean_F said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    hmmm

    what happens if the demographics work the same as everywhere else ie the older you get the less radical you become ? So all those young active people start to worry more about the security of their pensions and social care and gradually shift their views.

    I always cite the example of the October 1974 general election. The Tories came third among 18-24 year olds. Move forward 41 years, this age cohort voted heavily Conservative and UKIP.
    same with that old mantra of those who grew up in the Thatcher years, theyve all drifted rightwards

    Im predicting SO will be a conservative councillor by 2020 :-)
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Palmer, huzzah!

    Damned shame that limpetine imbecile Fillon's hanging around, though.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    YOU could almost hear the gnashing of teeth from the SNP benches at Westminster.

    You could imagine the anguished howls as they realised: “They’ve only given us more money to spend — those evil Tory blighters.”


    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/695074/you-could-almost-hear-the-gnashing-of-teeth-from-the-snp-benches-at-westminster-on-budget-day/

    LOL, you think we are stupid.
    Those who argued and believed "oil is just a bonus", yes.
    We have never had a penny from oil so anything would indeed be a bonus.
    ALEX Salmond and other SNP ministers were wrong when they said oil would be a “bonus” not a basis for the Scottish economy after independence, a senior party figure has conceded.

    Andrew Wilson, who is leading an SNP review updating the case for independence, admitted North Sea income was “baked into” spending plans, rather than treated as a windfall.

    The mantra “oil is a bonus” was a key part of the Yes campaign in 2014, and was used to rebut criticism that an independent Scotland would be overly reliant on a volatile industry.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15137800.Salmond_was_wrong_on__oil_is_a_bonus__claim__SNP_review_chief_admits/
    Well duh. Scotland was plastered with posters at the time of Indyref claim a vote for yes would create a premium of £1000 a head for public spending, the end of child poverty, more free child nurseries, think of the children etc etc. The oil (at its grossly inflated values) was not a bonus but the basis of these promises and the fantasy that was the White Paper. When canvassing at the time you were constantly bombarded with these "facts".

    Now the reality is that Scotland has a substantially larger deficit than the rest of the UK. Independence would undoubtedly mean fewer doctors and nurses, less childcare and higher taxes. If you think that Independence is the most important thing this is a price worth paying and the argument is that in the long run we would do better making our own decisions. But it is a much, much harder sell to those who are more indifferent. Sturgeon knows this and will avoid a second Indyref if she can until the winds are set fairer.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Mortimer said:

    McMao doesn't seem to actually understand NIC or this change on R4.

    It isn't a new tax, it is a rate change.
    The economy isn't weakening.
    It is progressive.

    Amazing that Labour are so high in the polls, tbh.

    Short of killing babies in the street I'm not sure what Hammond could have done that would enable Labour to lay a glove on him.

    Poor opposition, poor government
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Sean_F said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    hmmm

    what happens if the demographics work the same as everywhere else ie the older you get the less radical you become ? So all those young active people start to worry more about the security of their pensions and social care and gradually shift their views.

    I always cite the example of the October 1974 general election. The Tories came third among 18-24 year olds. Move forward 41 years, this age cohort voted heavily Conservative and UKIP.
    same with that old mantra of those who grew up in the Thatcher years, theyve all drifted rightwards

    Im predicting SO will be a conservative councillor by 2020 :-)
    We had Roger agreeing with a Tory chancellor yesterday, so anything can happen :)
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    F1: Alonso is not happy.

    And if he's right about being 30kmh (about 20mph) down on every straight, you can see why.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/39212377
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    hmmm

    Im still sceptical his supporters will turn out in the numbers he needs

    too many facebook\twitter types in the mix
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    hmmm

    what happens if the demographics work the same as everywhere else ie the older you get the less radical you become ? So all those young active people start to worry more about the security of their pensions and social care and gradually shift their views.

    The eu referendum turned this logic on its head. People are voting for change.
    Much depends on how brexit goes.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    How seriously should we take the Shadow Chancellor's assertion that Labour are ready and willing (I'm paraphrasing) for an election at any time?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    hmmm

    what happens if the demographics work the same as everywhere else ie the older you get the less radical you become ? So all those young active people start to worry more about the security of their pensions and social care and gradually shift their views.

    I always cite the example of the October 1974 general election. The Tories came third among 18-24 year olds. Move forward 41 years, this age cohort voted heavily Conservative and UKIP.
    same with that old mantra of those who grew up in the Thatcher years, theyve all drifted rightwards

    Im predicting SO will be a conservative councillor by 2020 :-)
    We had Roger agreeing with a Tory chancellor yesterday, so anything can happen :)
    Yeh - that did worry me a bit. Rogerdamus and all that.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    The bit posters appear to be missing from yesterday:

    https://twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/839505906891116544

    Have people already forgotten the outrage that followed the 2012 budget (huge) and the effect it had on the 2015 election (undetectable)?
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Ignoring the technicalities every headline is about breaking manifesto pledges, the main effect will be to harden the electorate's disdain for politicians.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    How seriously should we take the Shadow Chancellor's assertion that Labour are ready and willing (I'm paraphrasing) for an election at any time?

    I cannot say I have ever heard of turkeys voting for an early Xmas...
  • Options
    DixieDixie Posts: 1,221
    It's never the policy, it is the media outrage. I think OGH said, if a story is still running 7 days later, then govt have a problem.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    .</ <blockquote class="UserQuote">
    Sean_F said:

    nielh said:

    malcolmg said:

    The former First Minister, who led the nationalists between 1990-2000 and 2004-2014, insisted he would “never say never” to a third spell.

    With Nicola Sturgeon potentially about to call a second independence referendum, despite little movement in the polls since 2014, pundits are already speculating about who could replace her if her gambit fails and she steps down.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15142866.Alex_Salmond_hints_that_he_could_return_to_lead_the_SNP_for_a_third_time/

    The conclusion is that there is no way out of a second referendum.
    So the end of Sturgeon and Salmond III......
    The end of May's precious, precious union.
    Not what the polls say.....if Sturgeon was as confident as you she'd have called it already.....
    Luckily she knows more about Scotland than you, Channel Islands view does not cut the mustard. It is coming and it will not be as easy for the dictators the next time.
    So nailed on then......
    The assumptions many PB'ers make about the polls are foolish. Fundamentally the position for the nats is very strong now. They have demographics on their side every year that goes by eg more young, pro independence pro EU voters, fewer old, pro UK, pro Brexit voters. You can't assume anything about how the campaign is going to go.
    It is disruptive, but so is leaving the EU, and the english voted for the latter.

    hmmm

    what happens if the demographics work the same as everywhere else ie the older you get the less radical you become ? So all those young active people start to worry more about the security of their pensions and social care and gradually shift their views.

    I always cite the example of the October 1974 general election. The Tories came third among 18-24 year olds. Move forward 41 years, this age cohort voted heavily Conservative and UKIP.


    You are making the error that 1) history repeats itself and 2) staying in the UK is the conservative option. Could be independence and joining the EU is seen as the conservative option. As i said the EU referendum outcome was a rejection of the conservative/status quo position
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Dixie said:

    It's never the policy, it is the media outrage. I think OGH said, if a story is still running 7 days later, then govt have a problem.

    Brexit will be back on the front pages soon enough, what with the schedule ping pong game on Monday!
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Looking at the front pages, the government's honeymoon has been interrupted at least.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123

    How seriously should we take the Shadow Chancellor's assertion that Labour are ready and willing (I'm paraphrasing) for an election at any time?

    As seriously as anything else he says.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    edited March 2017
    DavidL said:

    Those PBers who believe I've been over critical here of Hammond's bashing of the self-employed, dividend earning, largely Tory voting elements in our society, may wish to reserve judgement by awaiting the results of polls over the forthcoming weeks and months, including not least the May local elections in order to gauge the electoral damage Hammond's budget has actually done to the Blue Team.
    George Osborne certainly had his faults but his intuitive political gut instinct would have stopped him far short from presenting a budget on anything remotely on the scale of the Tory-bashing version we heard yesterday.

    Really? During the Osborne years I lost all of my personal allowance, the proportion of my income subject to 40% increased substantially and I had to pay back all of my Child Benefit. Higher earners like me were thumped repeatedly to allow him to address the deficit. I apparently had the broadest shoulders or something.

    I had no real problem with that, it was necessary and the alternative would have been true austerity with completely unacceptable cuts in public spending, something Osborne largely avoided. But yesterday was a mere pinprick by comparison.
    To be fair, the personal allowance change was actually made by Darling in the last (ever?) Labour budget, though Osborne probably could have reversed it before it went into effect if he'd wanted to.

    It still strikes me as a silly, complicated and unfair tax (marginal rates go over 50% between £100-£120k)- it'd be far easier to just have the 45p rate kick in at £100k
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,919
    edited March 2017
    In the Netherlands the PVV"s rapid decline continues. In the latest I&O poll It's now forecast to get less than 13% of the vote, equal with the rabidly pro-EU D66, and down on where it was in 2010.
  • Options
    A Northern Irishman writes

    The Council of Europe wants an Irish Language Act. I can see Sammy Wilson going purple from my kitchen.
This discussion has been closed.