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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB moves to 19% deficit with YouGov, drops vote share in all

SystemSystem Posts: 11,020
edited March 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB moves to 19% deficit with YouGov, drops vote share in all latest by-elections & loses seat to CON

After budget debacle, Tories slump to er… 19-point lead, highest in government for 30 yearshttps://t.co/Da8rb748dG pic.twitter.com/aH69ITa2Mf

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    First, like Team Blue! :smiley:
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Second, like team blue
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    Doesn't seem sustainable, but stay the course JC, what do i know.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Fourth like the Lib Dems in Derby.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    edited March 2017
    I am not convinced that the public outcry at the self employed moving towards paying the same NI as everyone else will be as strong as the media thinks. Particularly as most people know that many of the self employed are prone to take a chunk of their earnings in cash free of any tax, let alone NI.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    The highest propensity to vote of all electors, combined with a question that generally gets at people's true general election voting intention.

    Difficult to emphasise how bad this is for Corbyn.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    2020 is infreasingly looking like Labour's 1997. Or maybe 1931
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jezza and the Labour party - "Things can only get better ...."

    Hums ....

    Titter ....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    IanB2 said:

    I am not convinced that the public outcry at the self employed moving towards paying the same NI as everyone else will be as strong as the media thinks. Particularly as most people know that many of the self employed are prone to take a chunk of their earnings in cash free of any tax, let alone NI.

    A 19% Tory lead does rather suggest that yet
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    Surely even corbyn fans know the game is up? Even if you think it unfair the treatment he gets, fact is if the government continues to get massive leads they can shrug off any good points he does make. We u turned? Well Corbyn's doing worse than foot, how's that for a distraction?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    The YouGov polling on the budget itself was good for the Chancellor even though 55% thought that he had broken a general election manifesto pledge by making the changes for self-employed National Insurance contributions.

    On the measures themselves all of them got good numbers of support.


    Not what you'd think reading here......
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    The YouGov polling on the budget itself was good for the Chancellor even though 55% thought that he had broken a general election manifesto pledge by making the changes for self-employed National Insurance contributions.

    On the measures themselves all of them got good numbers of support.


    Not what you'd think reading here......

    To be fair I think it's been reasonably split below the line.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Does anyone really believe this polling? I mean 1 in 4 adults are seriously going to vote for Corbyn to be our PM? It just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    DavidL said:

    Does anyone really believe this polling? I mean 1 in 4 adults are seriously going to vote for Corbyn to be our PM? It just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me.

    Now now, don't be silly. 1 in 4 are going to vote labour, no doubt happy to do so because they get a Labour MP without worrying the labour leader will be pm.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,715
    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    PClipp said:

    Tory whistleblowers accuse Conservatives of ‘huge betrayal’ of electorate over expenses

    Two members of a Conservative campaigning “hit squad” in the 2015 election tell Channel 4 News the party “cheated” by not properly declaring its election spending.
    https://www.channel4.com/news/tory-whistleblowers-election-expenses-conservative-party-battlebus

    This Conservative scandal has been dragging on for almost two years now.

    Britain under Cameron and May is as corrupt and disfunctional as Italy and Greece, or Trump`s America. Discuss.
    I disagree, but in fairness you appear to have been right they were flouting the rules even more than all the parties do.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    kle4 said:

    Surely even corbyn fans know the game is up? Even if you think it unfair the treatment he gets, fact is if the government continues to get massive leads they can shrug off any good points he does make. We u turned? Well Corbyn's doing worse than foot, how's that for a distraction?

    I think you fail to understand. Corby sim is a cult. It is an article of faith that Jeremy was ahead in the polls before the blairite coup, that the tide is turning and this Tory government will be run out of office, the polls are just lies made up by the right wing press and right wing BBC.

    Their belief is real and sincere. No. Seriously, it is.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    Labour is the problem, not (only) Corbyn.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Does anyone really believe this polling? I mean 1 in 4 adults are seriously going to vote for Corbyn to be our PM? It just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me.

    Now now, don't be silly. 1 in 4 are going to vote labour, no doubt happy to do so because they get a Labour MP without worrying the labour leader will be pm.
    Not worrying sufficiently about who the leader is and how he comes across is a major part of Labour 's problems.

    I think their vote will prove to be soft even at these levels. 4% of pensioners thinking he is the best PM is nearer the mark.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,927

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    That's one of the seats that the whistleblowers mention isn't it?
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G needs a full fibre network for backhaul. It's why the £16m from the government is a joke. Though the news this morning about BT having to separate Openreach is good news for UK fibre roll out.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    Why are so many people in St. Ives self employed.. :o
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    For once, the use of the word decimate might be accurate.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    "Could...", "if....", and that's just in the first paragraph. And a distinct lack of quotes from aggrieved builders, cabbies, internet traders et al. about to man the barricades?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    notme said:

    kle4 said:

    Surely even corbyn fans know the game is up? Even if you think it unfair the treatment he gets, fact is if the government continues to get massive leads they can shrug off any good points he does make. We u turned? Well Corbyn's doing worse than foot, how's that for a distraction?

    I think you fail to understand. Corby sim is a cult. It is an article of faith that Jeremy was ahead in the polls before the blairite coup, that the tide is turning and this Tory government will be run out of office, the polls are just lies made up by the right wing press and right wing BBC.

    Their belief is real and sincere. No. Seriously, it is.

    But how large is this cult? Most of the members have to be able to see the truth even if they love the idea of a Corbyn government. Surely?

    Of course nixk palmer said Corbyn wouldn't go even if the unions turned him, not until hrs ready.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    BREXIT Diaries - fascinating insights into the views of Leavers & Remainers (and its more complicated than that...)

    http://britainthinks.com/pdfs/BritainThinks_Brexit-Diaries-Breakfast-Briefing_FINAL.pdf
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    "could"

    but wont
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    Rather assumes this will be the only factor on which the self employed will decide their vote doesn't it? And the government has 3 years to make it up to them.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G is wireless but depends on a cabled infrastructure. But the point was more about economics: because the Americans tolerate market distortions and local monopolies (not to mention protectionism and hidden subsidies) their companies are more able to invest in new technology and expand overseas.

    So is it better to break up BT and enable more competition but at a smaller scale, or let it grow and invest? Do we want cheaper low-speed networks now or high-speed networks soon?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    Does anyone really believe this polling? I mean 1 in 4 adults are seriously going to vote for Corbyn to be our PM? It just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me.

    The danger is that Corbyn is polling so badly that a quarter of adults may vote Labour using by-election logic. IE "there is no risk of Corbyn winning the General Election so I can afford to vote Labour to send a message" even though this is a General Election.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    BREXIT Diaries - fascinating insights into the views of Leavers & Remainers (and its more complicated than that...)

    http://britainthinks.com/pdfs/BritainThinks_Brexit-Diaries-Breakfast-Briefing_FINAL.pdf

    "Devastated pessimists".. naming no names... :smiley:
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Excuse the vulgarity but there must come a time when Corbyn realizes he's the t***in the U-bend and for the fragrent running of our democracy as he can't be flushed out by his colleagues he should remove himself.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    tlg86 said:

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    For once, the use of the word decimate might be accurate.
    a nice touch.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    So much for the Lib Dems.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    And as an estimate based on no facts it is probable that 60% of those will be better off not worse?

    I don't associate St Ives with masses of high paid self employment.
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Does anyone really believe this polling? I mean 1 in 4 adults are seriously going to vote for Corbyn to be our PM? It just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me.

    Now now, don't be silly. 1 in 4 are going to vote labour, no doubt happy to do so because they get a Labour MP without worrying the labour leader will be pm.
    Not worrying sufficiently about who the leader is and how he comes across is a major part of Labour 's problems.

    I think their vote will prove to be soft even at these levels. 4% of pensioners thinking he is the best PM is nearer the mark.
    Do we think he'll hit 0 % on that measure sometime soon?
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    PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    OT This is a marvellous and emotional tribute to Bill Leak, who died earlier today. Great cartoonist. I'd no idea he was living in hiding after Islamist threats a la Charlie Hebdo.

    Andrew Bolt is one of my favourite broadcasters, he takes no prisoners.

    The Bolt Report
    #TheBoltReport: Bill Leak was a genius who never flinched and always told the truth as he saw it. He will be missed. https://t.co/1Eca6fpngO
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    DavidL said:

    Does anyone really believe this polling? I mean 1 in 4 adults are seriously going to vote for Corbyn to be our PM? It just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me.

    The danger is that Corbyn is polling so badly that a quarter of adults may vote Labour using by-election logic. IE "there is no risk of Corbyn winning the General Election so I can afford to vote Labour to send a message" even though this is a General Election.
    The message the public need to send to Labour loud and clear is don't be so ridiculously self indulgent the next time.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    IanB2 said:

    I am not convinced that the public outcry at the self employed moving towards paying the same NI as everyone else will be as strong as the media thinks. Particularly as most people know that many of the self employed are prone to take a chunk of their earnings in cash free of any tax, let alone NI.

    You'll find many a builder driving round in a Range Rover while submitting accounts that show profits just above the tax free allowance.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Farron can't beat Nutall.

    Time to throw in the towel?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    edited March 2017

    DavidL said:

    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Does anyone really believe this polling? I mean 1 in 4 adults are seriously going to vote for Corbyn to be our PM? It just doesn't seem to pass the sniff test to me.

    Now now, don't be silly. 1 in 4 are going to vote labour, no doubt happy to do so because they get a Labour MP without worrying the labour leader will be pm.
    Not worrying sufficiently about who the leader is and how he comes across is a major part of Labour 's problems.

    I think their vote will prove to be soft even at these levels. 4% of pensioners thinking he is the best PM is nearer the mark.
    Do we think he'll hit 0 % on that measure sometime soon?
    No. He gets a vote in that category himself, ironically enough. Edit and there is Nick as well.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    Jonathan said:

    Farron can't beat Nutall.

    Time to throw in the towel?

    To be replaced by...?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Farron can't beat Nutall.

    Time to throw in the towel?

    To be replaced by...?
    So much choice. The Norfolk bank manager one. You know, what's his name.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    Why are so many people in St. Ives self employed.. :o
    Ha ha Jim lad ....

    Smuggling and piracy ain't being top of the government pay roll ....

    Pieces of eight, pieces of eight ....
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,942
    edited March 2017
    FPT

    DavidL said

    ":What the furore really highlights for me is what a pernicious tax employers national insurance is. Taxing someone for employing someone else. It's really nuts and a major driver of all the pretend self employment we have these days with people losing security of employment, sick and holiday pay and maternity rights as a result. Employers NI is evil and getting rid of it would address a range of issues."

    I would suggest exactly the opposite. The problem is that employers want a well educated and healthy workforce but are not willing to pay for it. It is the same problem as we have with employers wanting to.import labour from overseas and then wash their hands of them when they are no longer needed.

    If anything we need to extend employers NI contributions. Make the end user companies of self employed or consultants directly responsible for paying the NI just as they do with staff. Bear in mind that once Hammond's SE NI increases are passed, as I am sure they will be, SE NI rates will only be 1% less than PAYE for employees but the employers will still be paying nothing.

  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    notme said:

    IanB2 said:

    I am not convinced that the public outcry at the self employed moving towards paying the same NI as everyone else will be as strong as the media thinks. Particularly as most people know that many of the self employed are prone to take a chunk of their earnings in cash free of any tax, let alone NI.

    You'll find many a builder driving round in a Range Rover while submitting accounts that show profits just above the tax free allowance.
    Well they need to be careful, HMRC is targeting builders, especially over VAT and has hooks into all sorts of sources of data these days.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    The Lib Dems should be much higher. The fact they're stuck in fourth is remarkable.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    'Decimate' to a majority of 144 on today's yougov poll you mean
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    Farron can't beat Nutall.

    Time to throw in the towel?

    To be replaced by...?
    So much choice. The Norfolk bank manager one. You know, what's his name.
    I'm a fan of 'oh god, the other one, you know, the guy, er, hmm'. He's great.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    IanB2 said:

    I am not convinced that the public outcry at the self employed moving towards paying the same NI as everyone else will be as strong as the media thinks. Particularly as most people know that many of the self employed are prone to take a chunk of their earnings in cash free of any tax, let alone NI.

    Wasn't there a big fuss from media over removal of child benefit from those with combined incomes over £40k? Terrible decision - hostile headlines, game changer etc.

    It might not be the worst of Hammond's decisions, but there is much sound and fury for some odd reasons.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    notme said:

    kle4 said:

    Surely even corbyn fans know the game is up? Even if you think it unfair the treatment he gets, fact is if the government continues to get massive leads they can shrug off any good points he does make. We u turned? Well Corbyn's doing worse than foot, how's that for a distraction?

    I think you fail to understand. Corby sim is a cult. It is an article of faith that Jeremy was ahead in the polls before the blairite coup, that the tide is turning and this Tory government will be run out of office, the polls are just lies made up by the right wing press and right wing BBC.

    Their belief is real and sincere. No. Seriously, it is.

    The Corbynite true believers will handwave away the polls as unreliable -- any punter who'd lost money naively following the polls at, say, GE2015 or EUref might have some sympathy.

    And they'd ask what the alternative is? Turn right? Gordon Brown lost. Ed Miliband lost.

    That's the problem. It's not enough to say Corbyn's rubbish. There needs to be a better alternative, in both policy and leadership terms. So far, none has been offered.
  • Options
    Pulpstar said:

    The highest propensity to vote of all electors, combined with a question that generally gets at people's true general election voting intention.

    Difficult to emphasise how bad this is for Corbyn.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/02/21/fifty-shades-of-grey-voters-corbyns-punishing-polling-with-older-voters/
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    FPT

    DavidL said

    ":What the furore really highlights for me is what a pernicious tax employers national insurance is. Taxing someone for employing someone else. It's really nuts and a major driver of all the pretend self employment we have these days with people losing security of employment, sick and holiday pay and maternity rights as a result. Employers NI is evil and getting rid of it would address a range of issues."

    I would suggest exactly the opposite. The problem is that employers want a well educated and healthy workforce but are not willing to pay for it. It is the same problem as we have with employers wanting to.import labour from overseas and then wash their hands of them when they are no longer needed.

    If anything we need to extend employers NI contributions. Make the end user companies of self employed or consultants directly responsible for paying the NI just as they do with staff. Bear in mind that once Hammond's SE NI increases are passed, as I am sure they will be, SE NI rates will only be 1% less than PAYE for employees but the employers will still be paying nothing.

    The last point is the problem. It is a perverse incentive towards the casualisation of the workforce. It raises a lot of money despite all the evasion but it needs to be replaced by taxes that much more fairly share the burden of training and treating the health costs of the population. It is a much, much bigger problem than self employed NI rates.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G is wireless but depends on a cabled infrastructure. But the point was more about economics: because the Americans tolerate market distortions and local monopolies (not to mention protectionism and hidden subsidies) their companies are more able to invest in new technology and expand overseas.

    So is it better to break up BT and enable more competition but at a smaller scale, or let it grow and invest? Do we want cheaper low-speed networks now or high-speed networks soon?
    In the old days, companies like BT and AT&T would do their own research, have their own labs, and make their own equipment.

    That's not the case anymore. Nowadays all the hard work is done by the equipment vendors, particularly Ericsson, Huaewei, Nokia, ZTE and Cisco.

    Whether BT is broken up or not makes very little difference to their ability to invest: whether you buy one DSLAM/CMTS or 10,000 doesn't change the price that much. (Hence the fact that some villages have grouped together and bought their own gigabit ethernet connections.)

  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    The 25% Labour floor of vote share is looking rather fragile, Jeremy needs another relaunch.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited March 2017

    Morning all.

    The 25% Labour floor of vote share is looking rather fragile, Jeremy needs another relaunch.

    Its an interesting question what the floor is. Nor sure how much support is actually the die hard loony left, but I think 19% might be rock bottom. (of course at 25% it might in reality only be 22%)
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Jonathan said:

    The Lib Dems should be much higher. The fact they're stuck in fourth is remarkable.

    Not really when they're led by Tiny Tim Farron, and their policy base only appeals to a max 20% or less of the electorate.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743

    notme said:

    kle4 said:

    Surely even corbyn fans know the game is up? Even if you think it unfair the treatment he gets, fact is if the government continues to get massive leads they can shrug off any good points he does make. We u turned? Well Corbyn's doing worse than foot, how's that for a distraction?

    I think you fail to understand. Corby sim is a cult. It is an article of faith that Jeremy was ahead in the polls before the blairite coup, that the tide is turning and this Tory government will be run out of office, the polls are just lies made up by the right wing press and right wing BBC.

    Their belief is real and sincere. No. Seriously, it is.

    The Corbynite true believers will handwave away the polls as unreliable -- any punter who'd lost money naively following the polls at, say, GE2015 or EUref might have some sympathy.

    And they'd ask what the alternative is? Turn right? Gordon Brown lost. Ed Miliband lost.

    That's the problem. It's not enough to say Corbyn's rubbish. There needs to be a better alternative, in both policy and leadership terms. So far, none has been offered.
    It is not normally enough. But you reach a level when things are so bad that it should be. Taking a blins leap off the roof of a burning house may not work out, to say the least, but when no rescue is in sight, it might be the only option. Superman will not come to save them.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Morning all.

    The 25% Labour floor of vote share is looking rather fragile, Jeremy needs another relaunch.

    Its an interesting question what the floor is. Nor sure how much support is actually the die hard loony left, but I think 19% might be rock bottom. (of course at 25% it might in reality only be 22%)
    Didn't Gordon Brown poll at 19% once?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G is wireless but depends on a cabled infrastructure. But the point was more about economics: because the Americans tolerate market distortions and local monopolies (not to mention protectionism and hidden subsidies) their companies are more able to invest in new technology and expand overseas.

    So is it better to break up BT and enable more competition but at a smaller scale, or let it grow and invest? Do we want cheaper low-speed networks now or high-speed networks soon?
    Also, 4G pretty much depends on gigabit backhaul these days. Occasionally it's microwave but most of the time its wired.
  • Options
    macisbackmacisback Posts: 382
    The NIC rise is dead already, May realises she wouldn't get it through parliament. The exit strategy will be interesting as will the future of Hammond.

    As for Corbyn it might have to be brought forward the time he moves aside. It could now be this year, who could take over who Lenny would accept. My money will be on Thornberry, although I wouldn't rule the snake Burnham out.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Re Lib Dems - they took a couple of seats off Tories in Oxfordshire last night, yet vote was down in that Derby seat, but there doesn't seem to be much upward movement on You Gov. They don't appear to be able to break above 10%, Farron is touted as a good organiser, but if LDs gains are small at locals, will he be turfed out, or are there no viable alternatives?
  • Options
    frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    This is a highly presumptuous Yougov poll. I don't suppose they even bothered to run it past Gina Miller before publishing.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    YouGov's before the equivalent of this year's English local elections:

    13/03/09
    Con 41
    Lab 31
    LibD 17
    Oth 10

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2005-2010

    08/03/13
    Lab 41
    Con 31
    LibD 11
    UKIP 10

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/yougov-voting-intention
  • Options
    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    rkrkrk said:

    Morning all.

    The 25% Labour floor of vote share is looking rather fragile, Jeremy needs another relaunch.

    Its an interesting question what the floor is. Nor sure how much support is actually the die hard loony left, but I think 19% might be rock bottom. (of course at 25% it might in reality only be 22%)
    Didn't Gordon Brown poll at 19% once?
    Not according to http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2005-2010
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G is wireless but depends on a cabled infrastructure. But the point was more about economics: because the Americans tolerate market distortions and local monopolies (not to mention protectionism and hidden subsidies) their companies are more able to invest in new technology and expand overseas.
    There was a time when Us domestic internet access shamed the UK. Now, due to the monopolistic practices of its providers US domestic internet access is a cesspit. They were given billions in handouts to roll out fibre networks across the US and just handed he money straight to the shareholders instead.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    dr_spyn said:

    Re Lib Dems - they took a couple of seats off Tories in Oxfordshire last night, yet vote was down in that Derby seat, but there doesn't seem to be much upward movement on You Gov. They don't appear to be able to break above 10%, Farron is touted as a good organiser, but if LDs gains are small at locals, will he be turfed out, or are there no viable alternatives?

    The most charismatic option they have is Clegg, but fair to say a few problems there.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    If we believe Mike all these centre left voters are looking for somewhere to go. The Lib Dems are there with open arms. And yet the party can't beat Nutalls UKIP.

    If they can't prosper now, will they ever prosper?
  • Options
    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    He actually managed lower! 18%, May 2009 with IPSOS-MORI
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    St Ives is the sort of constituency where the self-employed will be predominantly low earners and so would be beneficiaries of the NI changes.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    DavidL said:

    FPT

    DavidL said

    ":What the furore really highlights for me is what a pernicious tax employers national insurance is. Taxing someone for employing someone else. It's really nuts and a major driver of all the pretend self employment we have these days with people losing security of employment, sick and holiday pay and maternity rights as a result. Employers NI is evil and getting rid of it would address a range of issues."

    I would suggest exactly the opposite. The problem is that employers want a well educated and healthy workforce but are not willing to pay for it. It is the same problem as we have with employers wanting to.import labour from overseas and then wash their hands of them when they are no longer needed.

    If anything we need to extend employers NI contributions. Make the end user companies of self employed or consultants directly responsible for paying the NI just as they do with staff. Bear in mind that once Hammond's SE NI increases are passed, as I am sure they will be, SE NI rates will only be 1% less than PAYE for employees but the employers will still be paying nothing.

    The last point is the problem. It is a perverse incentive towards the casualisation of the workforce. It raises a lot of money despite all the evasion but it needs to be replaced by taxes that much more fairly share the burden of training and treating the health costs of the population. It is a much, much bigger problem than self employed NI rates.
    As the Resolution Foundation put it:

    ....the real debate about tax and the self-employed lies not in the National Insurance individuals directly pay but with the fact that firms pay 13.8 per cent employer National Insurance for everyone they employ, but nothing if they use self-employed labour. How to close that huge gap without causing wider problems is what our limited capacity for anxiety should really prioritise…

    http://www.resolutionfoundation.org/media/blog/is-the-chancellor-about-to-start-closing-the-self-employment-tax-gap/
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G is wireless but depends on a cabled infrastructure. But the point was more about economics: because the Americans tolerate market distortions and local monopolies (not to mention protectionism and hidden subsidies) their companies are more able to invest in new technology and expand overseas.
    There was a time when Us domestic internet access shamed the UK. Now, due to the monopolistic practices of its providers US domestic internet access is a cesspit. They were given billions in handouts to roll out fibre networks across the US and just handed he money straight to the shareholders instead.
    And you have to pay through the nose for it.. about five times as much as I was paying back in the UK.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT

    DavidL said

    ":What the furore really highlights for me is what a pernicious tax employers national insurance is. Taxing someone for employing someone else. It's really nuts and a major driver of all the pretend self employment we have these days with people losing security of employment, sick and holiday pay and maternity rights as a result. Employers NI is evil and getting rid of it would address a range of issues."

    I would suggest exactly the opposite. The problem is that employers want a well educated and healthy workforce but are not willing to pay for it. It is the same problem as we have with employers wanting to.import labour from overseas and then wash their hands of them when they are no longer needed.

    If anything we need to extend employers NI contributions. Make the end user companies of self employed or consultants directly responsible for paying the NI just as they do with staff. Bear in mind that once Hammond's SE NI increases are passed, as I am sure they will be, SE NI rates will only be 1% less than PAYE for employees but the employers will still be paying nothing.

    Ever wonder why there is such a drive towards automation when employers are punished time and again for offering employment?

    If I purchase a machine to do a job then I can reclaim any VAT that was spent on purchasing it, so essentially only owe VAT on marginal profit. There are no further major on-going taxes I can think of.

    If I hire a person to do the same job then I owe: wages, employers National Insurance, pension contributions, essentially VAT on the wages too, on top of potentially six months of sick pay, etc, etc, etc

    Even if a person is economically more efficient than a machine the tax system penalises employment so much what incentive is there to not go for a machine if possible?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    FPT: F1: murmuring in the live feed that Stroll is a few tenths off Massa. If accurate, and I'd want confirmation before taking it as read, it'd be a same and suggest his cash is not so much a bonus as the foundation of his presence in the sport.

    On-topic: comrades, do not trust this capitalist polling! It is fake news! Only yesterday I was out with Chairman Corbyn and the people marched proudly alongside us, chanting: "We hail Jeremy Corbyn! We hail Jeremy Corbyn!"
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,586
    DavidL said:

    FPT

    DavidL said

    ":What the furore really highlights for me is what a pernicious tax employers national insurance is. Taxing someone for employing someone else. It's really nuts and a major driver of all the pretend self employment we have these days with people losing security of employment, sick and holiday pay and maternity rights as a result. Employers NI is evil and getting rid of it would address a range of issues."

    I would suggest exactly the opposite. The problem is that employers want a well educated and healthy workforce but are not willing to pay for it. It is the same problem as we have with employers wanting to.import labour from overseas and then wash their hands of them when they are no longer needed.

    If anything we need to extend employers NI contributions. Make the end user companies of self employed or consultants directly responsible for paying the NI just as they do with staff. Bear in mind that once Hammond's SE NI increases are passed, as I am sure they will be, SE NI rates will only be 1% less than PAYE for employees but the employers will still be paying nothing.

    The last point is the problem. It is a perverse incentive towards the casualisation of the workforce. It raises a lot of money despite all the evasion but it needs to be replaced by taxes that much more fairly share the burden of training and treating the health costs of the population. It is a much, much bigger problem than self employed NI rates.
    I'd tend to agree - but on the evidence of the budget, there's little sign that this government has the nous to come up with a solution which won't be worse - even had they the political will to do so.
    NI has been a tax in all but name for many years, but folding in in to the tax system effectively is quite a knotty problem, which is why no one has taken it on. Given the huge task of managing Brexit, I think it highly unlikely that we'll see a fundamental overhaul of the system any time soon.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,931
    Roger said:

    Excuse the vulgarity but there must come a time when Corbyn realizes he's the t***in the U-bend and for the fragrent running of our democracy as he can't be flushed out by his colleagues he should remove himself.

    Corbyn has no interest in:
    1. Winning elections
    2. Parliament
    3. Offering British voters a credible opposition
    4. The Labour party
    His only interest is in advancing the cause of the far left. There is no way on God's earth he will ever stand down voluntarily. That's why it is still going to take a bit more time for him to go. But he will be gone way before 2020.


  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    IanB2 said:

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    "Could...", "if....", and that's just in the first paragraph. And a distinct lack of quotes from aggrieved builders, cabbies, internet traders et al. about to man the barricades?
    I don`t think it is the amount of money involved that will harm the Conservative cause. It is the fact that they have shown, once again, that they cannot be trusted. Moreover, they are a gang of unprincipled liars and cheats.

    Would you play cards with a Conservative?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited March 2017
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G is wireless but depends on a cabled infrastructure. But the point was more about economics: because the Americans tolerate market distortions and local monopolies (not to mention protectionism and hidden subsidies) their companies are more able to invest in new technology and expand overseas.
    There was a time when Us domestic internet access shamed the UK. Now, due to the monopolistic practices of its providers US domestic internet access is a cesspit. They were given billions in handouts to roll out fibre networks across the US and just handed he money straight to the shareholders instead.
    And you have to pay through the nose for it.. about five times as much as I was paying back in the UK.
    There are little pockets of the Us where the cable companies haven't acheived regulatory capture and monopoly where there is competition and as a result superb price/speed options but they are vanishingly rare.

    The extent the cable companies buy local laws to enforce their monopoly is staggering.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,927
    Off topic, but I would appreciate it if anybody can shed any light on this puzzler

    Was David Cameron's pre referendum renegotiation package go to a House of Commons vote before it could be presented to the country? Would it have if Remain had won?
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jonathan said:

    If we believe Mike all these centre left voters are looking for somewhere to go. The Lib Dems are there with open arms. And yet the party can't beat Nutalls UKIP.

    If they can't prosper now, will they ever prosper?

    Its still or is its still possible that a new Social democrat party will emerge from the wreckage?
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Corbyn needs to be replaced by AI.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    FPT:

    Completely O/T but anyone who was brave and bought BT shares in the middle of their dodgy Italians scandal is laughing this morning as Open Reach break out sends price up.

    Serious question: is this good for our IT infrastructure in the long term? It contrasts with America where networks are wholly owned by whoever built them and increasingly the infra firms offer their own content. Basically the opposite of what we have here. The budget conjured up £15 million for a 5G hub (whatever that is); meanwhile, the Americans are going ahead with 5G trials in 11 cities.
    5G is wireless, while OpenReach (vs US cable) is wired.

    Samsung is doing a 5G trial in the UK, although I'm buggered if I can remember where. If you Google you can probably find it.

    The big difference between the US wired networks and ours is simply that in the US they are much happier to string cables up in the air and between houses. If you get cable in the UK, they have to dig a trench to your home. In the US, it'll usually go along cables above your head. Not having to dig up roads makes roll outs a lot cheaper.
    5G is wireless but depends on a cabled infrastructure. But the point was more about economics: because the Americans tolerate market distortions and local monopolies (not to mention protectionism and hidden subsidies) their companies are more able to invest in new technology and expand overseas.
    There was a time when Us domestic internet access shamed the UK. Now, due to the monopolistic practices of its providers US domestic internet access is a cesspit. They were given billions in handouts to roll out fibre networks across the US and just handed he money straight to the shareholders instead.
    And you have to pay through the nose for it.. about five times as much as I was paying back in the UK.
    There are little pockets of the Us where the cable companies haven't acheived regulatory capture and monopoly where there is competition and as a result superb price/speed options but they are vanishingly rare.

    The extent the cable companies buy local laws to enforce their monopoly is staggering.
    Cable operators work on government awarded franchise areas here though...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    PClipp said:

    IanB2 said:

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    "Could...", "if....", and that's just in the first paragraph. And a distinct lack of quotes from aggrieved builders, cabbies, internet traders et al. about to man the barricades?
    I don`t think it is the amount of money involved that will harm the Conservative cause. It is the fact that they have shown, once again, that they cannot be trusted. Moreover, they are a gang of unprincipled liars and cheats.

    Would you play cards with a Conservative?
    Is that the new "never kissed a Tory"? :D
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    PClipp said:

    IanB2 said:

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    "Could...", "if....", and that's just in the first paragraph. And a distinct lack of quotes from aggrieved builders, cabbies, internet traders et al. about to man the barricades?
    I don`t think it is the amount of money involved that will harm the Conservative cause. It is the fact that they have shown, once again, that they cannot be trusted. Moreover, they are a gang of unprincipled liars and cheats.

    Would you play cards with a Conservative?
    Perhaps not but I'd vote for them over Corbyn. A different leader? We'd see.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017
    Jonathan said:

    If we believe Mike all these centre left voters are looking for somewhere to go. The Lib Dems are there with open arms. And yet the party can't beat Nutalls UKIP.

    If they can't prosper now, will they ever prosper?

    Voters are attracted or repulsed by leaders. No one knows who the Lib Dem leader is.

    He needs a scandal urgently
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    dr_spyn said:

    Re Lib Dems - they took a couple of seats off Tories in Oxfordshire last night, yet vote was down in that Derby seat, but there doesn't seem to be much upward movement on You Gov. They don't appear to be able to break above 10%, Farron is touted as a good organiser, but if LDs gains are small at locals, will he be turfed out, or are there no viable alternatives?

    The Lib Dems should do well in May in places like Surrey, South Cambridgeshire, and the M3 and M4 corridors. Anywhere that there was a big middle class Remain vote. They'll struggle in working class areas and areas that had a big Leave vote. They should come out of the elections with a reasonable net gain.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    edited March 2017
    Jonathan said:

    If we believe Mike all these centre left voters are looking for somewhere to go. The Lib Dems are there with open arms. And yet the party can't beat Nutalls UKIP.

    If they can't prosper now, will they ever prosper?

    'if we believe Mike'

    I think thats the key thing. Its pretty clear that he will always paint things in the best possible way for the Lib Dems whilst keeping his sharp betting mind on it too. In both Copeland and Stoke he talked up the Lib Dems chances, and whilst you can fully accept the viewpoint of looking at it from 'value' bets, they came to nothing.

    It's clear, they are doing well in local elections, but thats always been the case. In their present format and with present leadership at the national level they are no-where however (disbarring elections where they can perform and were challenging anyway).
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    YouGov's before the equivalent of this year's English local elections:

    13/03/09
    Con 41
    Lab 31
    LibD 17
    Oth 10

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2005-2010

    08/03/13
    Lab 41
    Con 31
    LibD 11
    UKIP 10

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/yougov-voting-intention

    If on local election night these two results are declared:

    Derbyshire
    CON gain from LAB

    Nottinghamshire
    CON gain from LAB

    Can Corbyn survive ?
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Lib Dems very hard to read. Good performance in their usual haunts (pavement politics mixed with Europhiles). No one knows how this will pan out in locals in May 17, my guess is good in certain places (parts of SW and SE and corners like Lakes and Berwick ) but not enough in the old Celtic fringe - Wales??? and big cities of Liverpool etc. Polls are almost impossible to follow as we have yet to see big locals on the back of BREXIT. May's honeymoon is definitely over, and whilst Lab troubled, Lib Dems best chance is open warfare in Conservative Party (which I think is really close to breaking out), more than a Farron scandal suspect
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Nunu, alternative Labour leader suggestion: https://www.amazon.co.uk/iRobot-Roomba-Vacuum-Cleaning-Robot/dp/B00AXJW94S/
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,743
    Sean_F said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Re Lib Dems - they took a couple of seats off Tories in Oxfordshire last night, yet vote was down in that Derby seat, but there doesn't seem to be much upward movement on You Gov. They don't appear to be able to break above 10%, Farron is touted as a good organiser, but if LDs gains are small at locals, will he be turfed out, or are there no viable alternatives?

    The Lib Dems should do well in May in places like Surrey, South Cambridgeshire, and the M3 and M4 corridors. Anywhere that there was a big middle class Remain vote. They'll struggle in working class areas and areas that had a big Leave vote. They should come out of the elections with a reasonable net gain.
    They held up fairly well in many places in 2913 which may hinder them a bit now oddly enough, in terms of gains.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Roger, Farron should seek inspiration from Miliband, but have *his* food picture story be pineapple on pizza.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    PClipp said:

    IanB2 said:

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    "Could...", "if....", and that's just in the first paragraph. And a distinct lack of quotes from aggrieved builders, cabbies, internet traders et al. about to man the barricades?
    I don`t think it is the amount of money involved that will harm the Conservative cause. It is the fact that they have shown, once again, that they cannot be trusted. Moreover, they are a gang of unprincipled liars and cheats.

    Would you play cards with a Conservative?
    No politicial parties can be trusted.

    Lib Dems included.

    Personally I must be more open minded than you I would happily play cards with a conservative , Lib Dem or Labour member

    I might keep an eye on all of them though :-)
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    d Greening‏ @EJGreening 6h6 hours ago

    @mg1967gone Corbyn isn't even that left wing. Left of centre would be a better description
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Jonathan said:

    If we believe Mike all these centre left voters are looking for somewhere to go. The Lib Dems are there with open arms. And yet the party can't beat Nutalls UKIP.

    If they can't prosper now, will they ever prosper?

    A very fair question.

  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Jonathan said:

    If we believe Mike all these centre left voters are looking for somewhere to go. The Lib Dems are there with open arms. And yet the party can't beat Nutalls UKIP.

    If they can't prosper now, will they ever prosper?

    Its still or is its still possible that a new Social democrat party will emerge from the wreckage?
    How many times has it been proved that the vast majority of the PLP have no spine. They went for Corbyn once and failed. How could they have screwed that up.....
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    isam said:

    Off topic, but I would appreciate it if anybody can shed any light on this puzzler

    Was David Cameron's pre referendum renegotiation package go to a House of Commons vote before it could be presented to the country? Would it have if Remain had won?


    I don't think so. As if it didn't fundamentally change any rights/laws, then it wouldn't need to.

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Floater said:

    PClipp said:

    IanB2 said:

    How self-employed backlash could decimate the Tory majority at a future election

    In St Ives, a constituency won by the Conservatives from the Lib Dems in 2015, some 38.3 per cent are self-employed.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/09/self-employed-backlash-could-decimate-tory-majority-future-election/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_fb

    "Could...", "if....", and that's just in the first paragraph. And a distinct lack of quotes from aggrieved builders, cabbies, internet traders et al. about to man the barricades?
    I don`t think it is the amount of money involved that will harm the Conservative cause. It is the fact that they have shown, once again, that they cannot be trusted. Moreover, they are a gang of unprincipled liars and cheats.

    Would you play cards with a Conservative?
    No politicial parties can be trusted.

    Lib Dems included.

    Personally I must be more open minded than you I would happily play cards with a conservative , Lib Dem or Labour member

    I might keep an eye on all of them though :-)
    Lib Dems.. trusted.. Every bar chart leaflet has a lie attached to it.. Totally untrustworthy bunch.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    YouGov's before the equivalent of this year's English local elections:

    13/03/09
    Con 41
    Lab 31
    LibD 17
    Oth 10

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/voting-intention-2005-2010

    08/03/13
    Lab 41
    Con 31
    LibD 11
    UKIP 10

    http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/yougov-voting-intention

    Differential turnout means sometimes the national polls do not reflect local election results. Last year it was generally assumed that Corbyn's labour would be an utter bloodbath. It was the cycle of seats that had previously been held following the omnishambles budget, which had been exceptionally good for Miliband. To neither maintain or lose seats in that year was the equivalent of matching one of the worse Tory local election results for over a decade. Labour lost 18 seats, which was margin of error stuff.

    I suspect that they will do quite a bit terms of seats this year, but not the drubbing that we thought would happen last time.
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