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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Opinium: Most of those polled say 2nd Scottish IndyRef ‘not justified’ but only one in three sure of a no vote if one happens

With Scottish Independence back on the agenda and Northern Ireland heading for crisis, Keiran Pedley argues that London is far too complacent about the future of the Union.

Read the full story here

PClipp

First, for once!

OldKingCole

Second.

SandyRentool

The results of this poll suggest that a referendum in England, Wales and NI to break from Scotland would deliver a big No.

FF43

THIRD referendum in Scotland in five years

tlg86

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Sean_F

I think both Sinn Fein and the SNP have a window of opportunity between now and Brexit taking place. After Brexit, that window will slam shut.

williamglenn

"UK public opinion remains very committed to the Union" isn't backed up by the poll if less than half of people say they want Scotland to vote to stay.

williamglenn

Sean_F said:

I think both Sinn Fein and the SNP have a window of opportunity between now and Brexit taking place. After Brexit, that window will slam shut.

For the SNP perhaps, but Brexit itself, even a successful one, would strengthen the case for a united Ireland.

FF43

I suspect Nicola Sturgeon would accept being bought off, so she can claim to be "Stronger for Scotland" Theresa May doesn't appear to be interested in that game

TheWhiteRabbit

The French sondages are all far too consistent. Five polls showing candidates no more than one point away from the other polls.

SquareRoot

FF43 said:

I suspect Nicola Sturgeon would accept being bought off, so she can claim to be "Stronger for Scotland" Theresa May doesn't appear to be interested in that game

Was Sturgeon at Twickenham seeing her team getting hammered?

Essexit

FF43 said:

THIRD referendum in Scotland in five years

Fourth in six!

Oh blast, I've gone and mentioned AV, haven't I?

williamglenn

Essexit said:

Oh blast, I've gone and mentioned AV, haven't I?

My beloved Alternative Veto system. If the Commons can't veto Brexit, then the alternative veto is the Lords, then the Scots, then the Irish, then the European Parliament, then the Cabinet, then back to the Commons... Let the process continue until an effective veto is found.

Essexit

williamglenn said:

Essexit said:

Oh blast, I've gone and mentioned AV, haven't I?

My beloved Alternative Veto system. If the Commons can't veto Brexit, then the alternative veto is the Lords, then the Scots, then the Irish, then the European Parliament, then the Cabinet, then back to the Commons... Let the process continue until an effective veto is found.

...then we elect a government that takes us out of the EU anyway.

ExiledInScotland

Dear God please No. The last Indyref was seriously corrosive among my friends. I'm not sure I can face that again.

FrancisUrquhart

Miles behind the pace....like Labour.

Theuniondivvie

SandyRentool said:

The results of this poll suggest that a referendum in England, Wales and NI to break from Scotland would deliver a big No.

That can't be right surely? A perennial claque on here saying that the English want rid of whiny, subsidy junky Jocks.

HYUFD

Firstly Scots are quite clear they want no second referendum on independence before the Brexit deal is done and the likely deal done, some bilateral agreements in return for a job offer requirement and some continued EU budget contributions may well be enough for most Scots anyway. In Northern Ireland Brokenshire has made it quite clear he will not contemplate direct rule and if the parties cannot agree a deal will even call another set of elections if necessary. Finally I refuse to accept May is not concerned about the future of the Union, as seen by her speech when she first entered No 10

HYUFD

TheWhiteRabbit said:

The French sondages are all far too consistent. Five polls showing candidates no more than one point away from the other polls.

Apart from Ipsos

HYUFD

williamglenn said:

"UK public opinion remains very committed to the Union" isn't backed up by the poll if less than half of people say they want Scotland to vote to stay.

A clear plurality want Scotland to stay even if other 20% will leave it up to Scots. You yourself would be in the latter category given you want to see all European nations disappear, including Scotland and the UK, in favour of a new Federal United States of Europe

HYUFD

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

MonikerDiCanio

SandyRentool said:

The results of this poll suggest that a referendum in England, Wales and NI to break from Scotland would deliver a big No.

The decades long campaign of the SNP to rile the English and sow disharmony has failed spectacularly. I'm always struck by the extreme tolerance and ultra-sweet nature of the English.

OldKingCole

HYUFD said:

Firstly Scots are quite clear they want no second referendum on independence before the Brexit deal is done and the likely deal done, some bilateral agreements in return for a job offer requirement and some continued EU budget contributions may well be enough for most Scots anyway. In Northern Ireland Brokenshire has made it quite clear he will not contemplate direct rule and if the parties cannot agree a deal will even call another set of elections if necessary. Finally I refuse to accept May is not concerned about the future of the Union, as seen by her speech when she first entered No 10

Re N Ireland,
1) If the parties cannot agree in, what is it, two weeks, then it’s EITHER direct rule OR another election.
2) If Brokenshire decides on another election then there are six weeks for the election campaign, so
3) The next election will be around two months after the last one.

Do we seriously think that unless there’s a significant change, in particular the standing aside of Arlene Foster, an election in May will produce a significantly different result to that which we have at the moment?

isam

Nick Palmer FPT


I locked myself out the other day and had a locksmith round. He openly offered me the choice of paying more with VAT or less without paperwork. I frowned and said curtly "The legal option with proper paperwork" and left it at that. Was he committing an offence by making the unsolicitied offer (there was a witness - a family friend)? Would HMRC prosecute on that basis? (And is it wise to make an enemy of a local locksmith?)



The divide between politicians and normal people, Exhibit A

Theuniondivvie

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

Another broken pledge from TRuthy?

"Ruth Davidson rules out leading No campaign for indyref2"

http://tinyurl.com/gldyjre

Jonathan

Weird Poll.

Why not ask the French about Brexit?

chestnut

Jonathan said:

Weird Poll.

Why not ask the French about Brexit?

Hardly comparable.

HYUFD

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

Another broken pledge from TRuthy?

"Ruth Davidson rules out leading No campaign for indyref2"

http://tinyurl.com/gldyjre

She has said no party leader should lead it (and indeed the chairman of any future No campaign would likely be apolitical) but most likely she would be the main No spokesperson

DanSmith

If you're the SNP, you have to do the referendum whilst Corbyn is leading Labour.

tlg86

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

HYUFD

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

Firstly Scots are quite clear they want no second referendum on independence before the Brexit deal is done and the likely deal done, some bilateral agreements in return for a job offer requirement and some continued EU budget contributions may well be enough for most Scots anyway. In Northern Ireland Brokenshire has made it quite clear he will not contemplate direct rule and if the parties cannot agree a deal will even call another set of elections if necessary. Finally I refuse to accept May is not concerned about the future of the Union, as seen by her speech when she first entered No 10

Re N Ireland,
1) If the parties cannot agree in, what is it, two weeks, then it’s EITHER direct rule OR another election.
2) If Brokenshire decides on another election then there are six weeks for the election campaign, so
3) The next election will be around two months after the last one.

Do we seriously think that unless there’s a significant change, in particular the standing aside of Arlene Foster, an election in May will produce a significantly different result to that which we have at the moment?

No but Brokenshire has made clear the UK government will not contemplate direct rule so if neither SF nor the DUP budge that will be the most likely outcome unless some deal can be cobbled together involving the UUP and/or the SDLP and the Alliance and 1 or the other of the big 2 parties

HYUFD

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Not if UKIP are anything to go by no!

foxinsoxuk

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

Jonathan

chestnut said:

Jonathan said:

Weird Poll.

Why not ask the French about Brexit?

Hardly comparable.

Can't remember getting a vote on Scottish Independence.

HYUFD

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

Actually Scots oppose any indyref 2 until Brexit is completed by a comfortable majority so May can easily fob Sturgeon off until then

tlg86

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

OldKingCole

HYUFD said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

Firstly Scots are quite clear they want no second referendum on independence before the Brexit deal is done and the likely deal done, some bilateral agreements in return for a job offer requirement and some continued EU budget contributions may well be enough for most Scots anyway. In Northern Ireland Brokenshire has made it quite clear he will not contemplate direct rule and if the parties cannot agree a deal will even call another set of elections if necessary. Finally I refuse to accept May is not concerned about the future of the Union, as seen by her speech when she first entered No 10

Re N Ireland,
1) If the parties cannot agree in, what is it, two weeks, then it’s EITHER direct rule OR another election.
2) If Brokenshire decides on another election then there are six weeks for the election campaign, so
3) The next election will be around two months after the last one.

Do we seriously think that unless there’s a significant change, in particular the standing aside of Arlene Foster, an election in May will produce a significantly different result to that which we have at the moment?

No but Brokenshire has made clear the UK government will not contemplate direct rule so if neither SF nor the DUP budge that will be the most likely outcome unless some deal can be cobbled together involving the UUP and/or the SDLP and the Alliance and 1 or the other of the big 2 parties

Haven’t the two biggest parties GOT, constitutionally to provide First and Deputy First Ministers.
Just suppose there is another election and SF pick up, or more likely, the DUP lose, enough seats for SF to be the largest party and therefore provide the First Minister.

chestnut

Jonathan said:

chestnut said:

Jonathan said:

Weird Poll.

Why not ask the French about Brexit?

Hardly comparable.

Can't remember getting a vote on Scottish Independence.

Fair point.

The level of entanglement is far greater for the nations of the UK than Brexit is for the EU though.

The UK government is really going to have to think about the things it commits to and invests in in Scotland if this neverendum behaviour persists.

tlg86

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. 86, hope not.

HYUFD

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

In pure party political terms the best result for UK Labour would be for Brexit to be a disaster and then Scotland to narrowly vote for independence and Scottish independence then proves a disaster, Scotland votes to rejoin the UK, the UK votes to rejoin the EU (or more likely the EEA) and Labour get an electable leader like Chuka Umunna and win a landslide on the backs of a deeply unpopular Tory Party and SNP

MonikerDiCanio

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

HYUFD

tlg86 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Ending the Union is not quite the same as ending Apartheid however much TUD may like to think it is!

GeoffM

tlg86 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Burning people alive who oppose them with tyres around their necks?

HYUFD

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

Firstly Scots are quite clear they want no second referendum on independence before the Brexit deal is done and the likely deal done, some bilateral agreements in return for a job offer requirement and some continued EU budget contributions may well be enough for most Scots anyway. In Northern Ireland Brokenshire has made it quite clear he will not contemplate direct rule and if the parties cannot agree a deal will even call another set of elections if necessary. Finally I refuse to accept May is not concerned about the future of the Union, as seen by her speech when she first entered No 10

Re N Ireland,
1) If the parties cannot agree in, what is it, two weeks, then it’s EITHER direct rule OR another election.
2) If Brokenshire decides on another election then there are six weeks for the election campaign, so
3) The next election will be around two months after the last one.

Do we seriously think that unless there’s a significant change, in particular the standing aside of Arlene Foster, an election in May will produce a significantly different result to that which we have at the moment?

No but Brokenshire has made clear the UK government will not contemplate direct rule so if neither SF nor the DUP budge that will be the most likely outcome unless some deal can be cobbled together involving the UUP and/or the SDLP and the Alliance and 1 or the other of the big 2 parties

Haven’t the two biggest parties GOT, constitutionally to provide First and Deputy First Ministers.
Just suppose there is another election and SF pick up, or more likely, the DUP lose, enough seats for SF to be the largest party and therefore provide the First Minister.

Well unless the DUP agree to support a SF First Minister the problem remains

OldKingCole

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

foxinsoxuk

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

HYUFD

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I am not so sure, I expect there would be plenty of Union diehards as there have been Remain diehards who will keep pressing for another vote if they can or for 'soft independence' of some form or another

tlg86

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I don't disagree, but if things don't go well, the politicians who negotiated the exit from the UK would not go down well in history if they were perceived to have done a bad deal.

GeoffM

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

foxinsoxuk

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Burning people alive who oppose them with tyres around their necks?

The ANC always condemned necklacing, and in any case the practice was pre election rather than post election.

foxinsoxuk

GeoffM said:

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

Fear not! we doctors are very good at finding new diseases to treat.

chestnut

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I am not so sure, I expect there would be plenty of Union diehards as there have been Remain diehards who will keep pressing for another vote if they can or for 'soft independence' of some form or another

http://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/shetland-islands-toy-with-idea-of-post-brexit-independence/

“I don’t suppose we would ever be allowed full independence,” Manson said, adding: “In an ideal world we would be a British overseas territory. We would be to Britain what Faroe is to Denmark.”

foxinsoxuk

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I am not so sure, I expect there would be plenty of Union diehards as there have been Remain diehards who will keep pressing for another vote if they can or for 'soft independence' of some form or another

With similar futility methinks.

Theuniondivvie

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Ending the Union is not quite the same as ending Apartheid however much TUD may like to think it is!

You speak enough rubbish on your own behalf, please don't put words into my mouth.

GeoffM

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Burning people alive who oppose them with tyres around their necks?

The ANC always condemned necklacing, and in any case the practice was pre election rather than post election.

Ah, cheers for that. As long as it was all pre-election that's cool with me.

chestnut

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I don't disagree, but if things don't go well, the politicians who negotiated the exit from the UK would not go down well in history if they were perceived to have done a bad deal.

With a start point of a £15bn deficit on a £150bn economy they would be toast very quickly.

OldKingCole

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

Fear not! we doctors are very good at finding new diseases to treat.

Slapped face syndrome (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/slapped-cheek-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx) is my favourite there.
Although that’s me being a bit cynical.

HYUFD

foxinsoxuk said:

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I am not so sure, I expect there would be plenty of Union diehards as there have been Remain diehards who will keep pressing for another vote if they can or for 'soft independence' of some form or another

With similar futility methinks.

Probably but too early to tell for either definitively (especially given the Scots have yet to even vote for independence)

HYUFD

chestnut said:

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I am not so sure, I expect there would be plenty of Union diehards as there have been Remain diehards who will keep pressing for another vote if they can or for 'soft independence' of some form or another

http://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/shetland-islands-toy-with-idea-of-post-brexit-independence/

“I don’t suppose we would ever be allowed full independence,” Manson said, adding: “In an ideal world we would be a British overseas territory. We would be to Britain what Faroe is to Denmark.”

Yes, an independent Scotland may quickly find Shetland does to it what it was doing to post Brexit UK

GeoffM

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

Fear not! we doctors are very good at finding new diseases to treat.

That's very true and in the same way it's amazing how computer viruses manage to stay just a little bit ahead of the next paid anti-virus update ... but not too far ahead and not too destructive.

Rather like aggressive doctoring or lawyering, the anti-virus industry keeps going by creating its own clients.

foxinsoxuk

OldKingCole said:

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

Fear not! we doctors are very good at finding new diseases to treat.

Slapped face syndrome (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/slapped-cheek-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx) is my favourite there.
Although that’s me being a bit cynical.

Enter the world of psychiatry if you really want to wander into the murky world of new diseases:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CHYP1P6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1#productDescription_secondary_view_div_1489335197625

Morris_Dancer

Dr. Foxinsox, psychologists are better. Not sure if ever came about, but when I was studying it there was talk of adding a new sort of condition whereby you had it if you didn't think you were ill. Even if you weren't. A sort of not-hypochondria.

And that's without getting into weird cultural stuff like anorexia in the West, or ultra-agoraphobia (or the testicle-withdrawal yin-tang issue) in the East.

Edited extra bit: yin-yang*.

malcolmg

ExiledInScotland said:

Dear God please No. The last Indyref was seriously corrosive among my friends. I'm not sure I can face that again.

get prepared it is coming

Ishmael_Z

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Burning people alive who oppose them with tyres around their necks?

The ANC always condemned necklacing, and in any case the practice was pre election rather than post election.

Ah, cheers for that. As long as it was all pre-election that's cool with me.

LOL.

"With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country" - Winnie Mandela, 1986.

Condemnation of above statement by Nelson Mandela or the ANC: " ".

tlg86

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

Fear not! we doctors are very good at finding new diseases to treat.

That's very true and in the same way it's amazing how computer viruses manage to stay just a little bit ahead of the next paid anti-virus update ... but not too far ahead and not too destructive.

Rather like aggressive doctoring or lawyering, the anti-virus industry keeps going by creating its own clients.

I'd chuck in the police and hate crimes/incidents too.

malcolmg

Theuniondivvie said:

SandyRentool said:

The results of this poll suggest that a referendum in England, Wales and NI to break from Scotland would deliver a big No.

That can't be right surely? A perennial claque on here saying that the English want rid of whiny, subsidy junky Jocks.

Yes for all the mud slinging , why so very desperate to hang on to us , makes you wonder indeed.

malcolmg

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

LOL,

malcolmg

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

Another broken pledge from TRuthy?

"Ruth Davidson rules out leading No campaign for indyref2"

http://tinyurl.com/gldyjre

She has said no party leader should lead it (and indeed the chairman of any future No campaign would likely be apolitical) but most likely she would be the main No spokesperson

She is only a regional leader , she does not lead "A Party", being Westminster sockpuppet does not make her a leader of a real party

malcolmg

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

Actually Scots oppose any indyref 2 until Brexit is completed by a comfortable majority so May can easily fob Sturgeon off until then

One can only hope she tries that on.

rcs1000

foxinsoxuk said:

OldKingCole said:

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

Fear not! we doctors are very good at finding new diseases to treat.

Slapped face syndrome (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/slapped-cheek-syndrome/Pages/Introduction.aspx) is my favourite there.
Although that’s me being a bit cynical.

Enter the world of psychiatry if you really want to wander into the murky world of new diseases:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CHYP1P6/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1#productDescription_secondary_view_div_1489335197625

Have you read The Psychopath Test? It's a fabulous book.

NickPalmer

isam said:

Nick Palmer FPT


I locked myself out the other day and had a locksmith round. He openly offered me the choice of paying more with VAT or less without paperwork. I frowned and said curtly "The legal option with proper paperwork" and left it at that. Was he committing an offence by making the unsolicitied offer (there was a witness - a family friend)? Would HMRC prosecute on that basis? (And is it wise to make an enemy of a local locksmith?)



The divide between politicians and normal people, Exhibit A

Lol - FWIW my non-political friend was more shocked by the offer than I was. It's one of those things where people tend to do what friends do and assume that evertyone else is the same.

I do remember a poll on whether people would agree to payment in cash to evade tax - there was a fairly even split. But what people say and actually do may be two different things. Is there any hard data on it?

foxinsoxuk

Morris_Dancer said:

Dr. Foxinsox, psychologists are better. Not sure if ever came about, but when I was studying it there was talk of adding a new sort of condition whereby you had it if you didn't think you were ill. Even if you weren't. A sort of not-hypochondria.

And that's without getting into weird cultural stuff like anorexia in the West, or ultra-agoraphobia (or the testicle-withdrawal yin-tang issue) in the East.

Edited extra bit: yin-yang*.

I don't think anyone denies anorexia exists and needs treatment. I have a family member with it. It is more a question of whether a medical approach is the right one.

There is also a great demand for peoples difficulties in life to get medicalised as a form of validation that the problem is a medical one. I think that part of the stigma of mental illness is that problems have to be medically defined in order to be deemed worthy of taking seriously.

malcolmg

chestnut said:

Jonathan said:

chestnut said:

Jonathan said:

Weird Poll.

Why not ask the French about Brexit?

Hardly comparable.

Can't remember getting a vote on Scottish Independence.

Fair point.

The level of entanglement is far greater for the nations of the UK than Brexit is for the EU though.

The UK government is really going to have to think about the things it commits to and invests in in Scotland if this neverendum behaviour persists.

Yes we would not want them spending Scotland's money in Scotland , why change the habits of a lifetime , you cretinous half witted dullard.

HYUFD

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

Actually Scots oppose any indyref 2 until Brexit is completed by a comfortable majority so May can easily fob Sturgeon off until then

One can only hope she tries that on.

She certainly can given Scots want the Brexit deal do be done first before they even consider any indyref 2 according to every poll

HYUFD

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

Another broken pledge from TRuthy?

"Ruth Davidson rules out leading No campaign for indyref2"

http://tinyurl.com/gldyjre

She has said no party leader should lead it (and indeed the chairman of any future No campaign would likely be apolitical) but most likely she would be the main No spokesperson

She is only a regional leader , she does not lead "A Party", being Westminster sockpuppet does not make her a leader of a real party

She leads the second biggest party at Holyrood

malcolmg

chestnut said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I don't disagree, but if things don't go well, the politicians who negotiated the exit from the UK would not go down well in history if they were perceived to have done a bad deal.

With a start point of a £15bn deficit on a £150bn economy they would be toast very quickly.

another halfwit , the deficit is due to westmonster vanity projects, drop all the crap and willy waving and you start of with no deficit.

chestnut

malcolmg said:

chestnut said:

Jonathan said:

chestnut said:

Jonathan said:

Weird Poll.

Why not ask the French about Brexit?

Hardly comparable.

Can't remember getting a vote on Scottish Independence.

Fair point.

The level of entanglement is far greater for the nations of the UK than Brexit is for the EU though.

The UK government is really going to have to think about the things it commits to and invests in in Scotland if this neverendum behaviour persists.

Yes we would not want them spending Scotland's money in Scotland , why change the habits of a lifetime , you cretinous half witted dullard.

Aw bless.

The Kilted Kippers Voice of Reason speaks again.

malcolmg

HYUFD said:

chestnut said:

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I am not so sure, I expect there would be plenty of Union diehards as there have been Remain diehards who will keep pressing for another vote if they can or for 'soft independence' of some form or another

http://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/shetland-islands-toy-with-idea-of-post-brexit-independence/

“I don’t suppose we would ever be allowed full independence,” Manson said, adding: “In an ideal world we would be a British overseas territory. We would be to Britain what Faroe is to Denmark.”

Yes, an independent Scotland may quickly find Shetland does to it what it was doing to post Brexit UK

You cannot be as stupid as your posts suggest , wiull give you the benefit of the doubt that it is just geographical ignorance. They would last 5 minutes.

chestnut

malcolmg said:

chestnut said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I don't disagree, but if things don't go well, the politicians who negotiated the exit from the UK would not go down well in history if they were perceived to have done a bad deal.

With a start point of a £15bn deficit on a £150bn economy they would be toast very quickly.

another halfwit , the deficit is due to westmonster vanity projects, drop all the crap and willy waving and you start of with no deficit.

Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

williamglenn

"There's an economic illiteracy in Number 10"
"May's instinct is to tax and spend"

https://twitter.com/rcolvile/status/840849309356691456

OldKingCole

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

OldKingCole said:

MonikerDiCanio said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Does a doctor want an end to disease ? In theory yes, in reality no.

That’s a little cynical. Clearing someone off the books is, I understand, a satisfying experience.
Apart from when the patient dies.

I think Moniker was being more general than that ... a doctor may care deeply (or not) about curing an individual of a disease, but it wouldn't be in their career interests to turn off the supply of new patients suffering from that particular malady.

Fear not! we doctors are very good at finding new diseases to treat.

That's very true and in the same way it's amazing how computer viruses manage to stay just a little bit ahead of the next paid anti-virus update ... but not too far ahead and not too destructive.

Rather like aggressive doctoring or lawyering, the anti-virus industry keeps going by creating its own clients.

Of course it does; as with criminals inventing new forms of crime. Computer scams for example. The crooks are always one step ahead of the law.
Like tax-avoidance specialists!

malcolmg

HYUFD said:

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

Another broken pledge from TRuthy?

"Ruth Davidson rules out leading No campaign for indyref2"

http://tinyurl.com/gldyjre

She has said no party leader should lead it (and indeed the chairman of any future No campaign would likely be apolitical) but most likely she would be the main No spokesperson

She is only a regional leader , she does not lead "A Party", being Westminster sockpuppet does not make her a leader of a real party

She leads the second biggest party at Holyrood

the westminster sub regional conservative party, a sockpuppet and nothing more.

Morris_Dancer

Dr. Foxinsox, I'm not saying anorexia (or ultra-agoraphobia) don't exist, just that they seem to be culturally specific.

foxinsoxuk

Ishmael_Z said:

GeoffM said:

foxinsoxuk said:

GeoffM said:

tlg86 said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. 86, yes, but if Scotland did become independent I imagine it'd very shortly thereafter see the SNP splinter (not necessarily in a People's Front of Judea kind of way, just as a natural process).

I don't think so. I think they'll be like the ANC in South Africa.

Burning people alive who oppose them with tyres around their necks?

The ANC always condemned necklacing, and in any case the practice was pre election rather than post election.

Ah, cheers for that. As long as it was all pre-election that's cool with me.

LOL.

"With our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country" - Winnie Mandela, 1986.

Condemnation of above statement by Nelson Mandela or the ANC: " ".

On the contrary, they did publically condemn her, and of course Nelson divorced her.

for example:

http://articles.latimes.com/1989-02-17/news/mn-2781_1_winnie-mandela

isam

NickPalmer said:

isam said:

Nick Palmer FPT


I locked myself out the other day and had a locksmith round. He openly offered me the choice of paying more with VAT or less without paperwork. I frowned and said curtly "The legal option with proper paperwork" and left it at that. Was he committing an offence by making the unsolicitied offer (there was a witness - a family friend)? Would HMRC prosecute on that basis? (And is it wise to make an enemy of a local locksmith?)



The divide between politicians and normal people, Exhibit A

Lol - FWIW my non-political friend was more shocked by the offer than I was. It's one of those things where people tend to do what friends do and assume that evertyone else is the same.

I do remember a poll on whether people would agree to payment in cash to evade tax - there was a fairly even split. But what people say and actually do may be two different things. Is there any hard data on it?

I guess I fulfil your hypothesis as I don't think I know anybody who wouldn't just pay them cash

Essexit

malcolmg said:

chestnut said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I don't disagree, but if things don't go well, the politicians who negotiated the exit from the UK would not go down well in history if they were perceived to have done a bad deal.

With a start point of a £15bn deficit on a £150bn economy they would be toast very quickly.

another halfwit , the deficit is due to westmonster vanity projects, drop all the crap and willy waving and you start of with no deficit.

Channeling Aaron Banks, I see!

OldKingCole

foxinsoxuk said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Dr. Foxinsox, psychologists are better. Not sure if ever came about, but when I was studying it there was talk of adding a new sort of condition whereby you had it if you didn't think you were ill. Even if you weren't. A sort of not-hypochondria.

And that's without getting into weird cultural stuff like anorexia in the West, or ultra-agoraphobia (or the testicle-withdrawal yin-tang issue) in the East.

Edited extra bit: yin-yang*.

I don't think anyone denies anorexia exists and needs treatment. I have a family member with it. It is more a question of whether a medical approach is the right one.

There is also a great demand for peoples difficulties in life to get medicalised as a form of validation that the problem is a medical one. I think that part of the stigma of mental illness is that problems have to be medically defined in order to be deemed worthy of taking seriously.

Many would see medicalsation as part of the problem.

FrancisUrquhart

Who can forget Eddie Spheroids making an idiot of himself over anybody paying cash for odd jobs.

Cyan

Turkey's foreign minister appeared today in Metz, France, where he called for "the defence of European values". Got to wonder what tiny percentage of Europeans may actually appreciate this guy offering advice. Earlier he said that since he was the Turkish foreign minister, he ought to be able to go to the Netherlands and anywhere else he wanted.

The Turkish referendum is on 16 April, a week before the French round one. The polls in Turkey seem to be all over the place.

DavidL

Any complacency on the part of Unionists would indeed be unwarranted. This is not a process that Nicola is completely in control of and things could easily run beyond her desire to put a refusal of another referendum on the grievance agenda. Behind the scenes groups on both sides of the argument are already working at fund raising moneys that can be spent beyond the official campaigns.

A second referendum, particularly one with anything like the same timescale as the neverendum of 2012-14, would be catastrophic for Scotland. There is a real reluctance to recognise how much damage that last effort did to our economy and tax base.

The tendency towards an entirely branch economy grew sharply in those years as management, seat and decision making moved south just in case. As a simple example the majority of Scotland's leading legal firms, many with centuries of prestige and independence, became branches of English based law firms as partners sought to get their capital out and spread their risk. Regrettably the result has not stopped that trend.

More uncertainty is not what Scotland requires in 2017. The consolidation of Standard Life and Aberdeen Asset Management leaves us one take over away from no longer having the vestiges of an independent financial centre. A branch economy that has uncertainty about its connections to the trunk (London of course) dies. It is as simple as that.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Cyan, the Turkish referendum will be interesting, given the way the media has been pruned to Erdogan's preferred shape.

HYUFD

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

chestnut said:

HYUFD said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

foxinsoxuk said:

tlg86 said:

Does the SNP actually want to win an independence referendum?

Of course!

Like Brexit it is an aim in itself, with no real concern about what follows.

I am by nature a Unionist, but think it will be different this time, and do not think that May will handle it well. Nothing would go down worse in Scotland than her refusal, but if May supports another indyref it will rile Scottish Unionists. I cannot see a way out for her.

The difference between the SNP and Ukip, of course, is that the SNP will own independence. If Brexit goes tits up (I don't think it will, by the way), it will be the Tories and May who own it. Make no mistake, the morning after a Yes vote in Scotland will see the SNP have to take full ownership of what follows.

It doesn't matter.

Scotland would be independent, the deed done. Whether the SNP exists as a single party is a trifle, no Unionist party could either take power back or reverse it. It would be like Brexit.

I am not so sure, I expect there would be plenty of Union diehards as there have been Remain diehards who will keep pressing for another vote if they can or for 'soft independence' of some form or another

http://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/news/shetland-islands-toy-with-idea-of-post-brexit-independence/

“I don’t suppose we would ever be allowed full independence,” Manson said, adding: “In an ideal world we would be a British overseas territory. We would be to Britain what Faroe is to Denmark.”

Yes, an independent Scotland may quickly find Shetland does to it what it was doing to post Brexit UK

You cannot be as stupid as your posts suggest , wiull give you the benefit of the doubt that it is just geographical ignorance. They would last 5 minutes.

They would try and rejoin the UK much as the SNP wants to rejoin the EU

Cyan

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

Another broken pledge from TRuthy?

"Ruth Davidson rules out leading No campaign for indyref2"

http://tinyurl.com/gldyjre

She has said no party leader should lead it (and indeed the chairman of any future No campaign would likely be apolitical) but most likely she would be the main No spokesperson

She is only a regional leader , she does not lead "A Party", being Westminster sockpuppet does not make her a leader of a real party

It's Nicola Sturgeon who is a regional leader.

Ruth Davidson would make an acceptable leader of a Scottish government of Unionist unity [*], which I think the majority of people in Scotland would like to have (if I had a pound for every time someone has said to me that Sturgeon should shut the eff up about independence and start running Scotland properly, etc.), but she is not the right person to be the sole "main No spokesperson". For goodness sake, don't help the SNP with their line that Unionism = Tories = Westminster = London media = FEBs, their sockpuppets, and the stupid.

(*) Sturgeon wants a referendum before the next Holyrood election. The SNP lost their majority in 2016, and hopefully in 2021 (or maybe 2020, depending on when the next British GE is held) the Unionists will regain a majority and if necessary Kezia, Willie and Ruth will be mature enough to do the right thing and form a coalition.

foxinsoxuk

Morris_Dancer said:

Dr. Foxinsox, I'm not saying anorexia (or ultra-agoraphobia) don't exist, just that they seem to be culturally specific.

I think that anorexia is one way that underlying difficulties manifest, in other circumstances such internal conflicts present in other ways. Depression, addictions, alcoholism, delinquincy, promiscuity, suicide etc. Indeed recovering anorectics often move on to one or more of these other behaviours.

Increasingly anorexia is being found in many other cultures from Latin America to the far East. It may not be so rare there as once thought, just under recognised.

Many psychiatric conditions do blend into normality. At what point does gambling addiction become pathological for instance? or shyness? or depression or binge eating?

Medicine certainly has a role in managing anorexia (not least the metabolic effects are what kills anorectics) but the treatment needs a much wider approach.

Cyan

The Scottish Greens could bring down the Sturgeon government if they wanted to, because Con + Lab + Greens + LibDems have a majority. But that would be doing something useful.

tlg86

DavidL said:

A second referendum, particularly one with anything like the same timescale as the neverendum of 2012-14, would be catastrophic for Scotland. There is a real reluctance to recognise how much damage that last effort did to our economy and tax base.

Yes, if it's going to happen they need to get on and do it either this autumn or next Spring.

FrancisUrquhart

Britain’s youngest MP Mhairi Black 'hates' Parliament and says she might stand down at the next election

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/12/britains-youngest-mp-mhairi-black-hates-parliament-says-might/

Theuniondivvie

Cyan said:

malcolmg said:

HYUFD said:

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

tlg86 said:

Third. Very interesting, thank you Keiran. It is interesting to consider what the no campaign would look like second time around. Would Darling front it again? Or would it need someone else?

Davidson would front it now

Another broken pledge from TRuthy?

"Ruth Davidson rules out leading No campaign for indyref2"

http://tinyurl.com/gldyjre

She has said no party leader should lead it (and indeed the chairman of any future No campaign would likely be apolitical) but most likely she would be the main No spokesperson

She is only a regional leader , she does not lead "A Party", being Westminster sockpuppet does not make her a leader of a real party

It's Nicola Sturgeon who is a regional leader.

Ruth Davidson would make an acceptable leader of a Scottish government of Unionist unity [*], which I think the majority of people in Scotland would like to have (if I had a pound for every time someone has said to me that Sturgeon should shut the eff up about independence and start running Scotland properly, etc.), but she is not the right person to be the sole "main No spokesperson". For goodness sake, don't help the SNP with their line that Unionism = Tories = Westminster = London media = FEBs, their sockpuppets, and the stupid.

(*) Sturgeon wants a referendum before the next Holyrood election. The SNP lost their majority in 2016, and hopefully in 2021 (or maybe 2020, depending on when the next British GE is held) the Unionists will regain a majority and if necessary Kezia, Willie and Ruth will be mature enough to do the right thing and form a coalition.

You're showing a similar level of Scottish insight as the loon who asserted that Scotland would vote even more strongly for Brexit than rUK. I wonder whatever became of him?