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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the PVV do it tonight in the Dutch election it will be anot

SystemSystem Posts: 11,015
edited March 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the PVV do it tonight in the Dutch election it will be another polling miss where the right was understated

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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    first
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936
    tweede
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936
    That was 'second' in Dutch.

    What thoughts on the much higher than expected turnout that is being reported? Who does that help?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    I'm not sure if the premise of the thread is right. If PVV do it, it will just mean the recent events with Turkey didn't have the impact we currently expect.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    FPT: I see VVD are in to nearly 1/2 (NB congrats to @AlastairMeeks and others for the call).

    Does anyone think the outsiders in Holland are a touch of value? CDA 40, D66 120, GL 110 on Betfair.
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    Hurrah for Alastair.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184
    Harris calls on Labour MPs to start immediate leadership challenge:

    "The Corbyn “experiment” has failed. You have to end it. Now."

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/labour-mps-must-end-farce-jeremy-corbyns-leadership-now/
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184
    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Does anyone think the outsiders in Holland are a touch of value? CDA 40, D66 120, GL 110 on Betfair.

    Looking at the polling, it would have to be a very big miss indeed for one of those to win, and it's not obvious (to me at least) what the driver of such a miss might be. So maybe a small touch of value, but only in the sense of 'sometimes the unexpected happens'.

    FWIW I followed Alastair's tip but by laying the PVV rather than backing the VVD, to cover that possibility.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    He's in position, but not in operation.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,799
    edited March 2017
    FPT
    GIN1138 said:

    Any idea who's favourite to become CotE after the NIC debacle?

    Is this the opening for a Boy George Comeback that TSE has been waiting for... ? ;)
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    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184
    Lib Dem Press Office‏Verified account @LibDemPress 1h1 hour ago

    Sigh. It is days like this we wish @jeremycorbyn would let us have his questions. He clearly doesn't want them.
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    isamisam Posts: 40,914
    Thinking about Scottish independence... don't the Scots have a great opportunity to sample all the permutations?

    At the moment they are part of the uk in the eu
    Soon they will be part of an independent uk
    The they could try being totally independent
    Then become part of the eu
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    Think Ronnie Rosenthal, but not even hitting the bar.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    Crap beyond crap. Presented with an open goal over Gov chaos over NICs he managed to kick the ball back into his own goal. He had six attempts, only three of which actaully asked a question. Easily the worst performance, given the opportunity, in years.

    In the name of God, Labour members wake up and deal with this!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    I didn't bet because there are too many similar three letter acronyms.
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    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    Think Ronnie Rosenthal, but not even hitting the bar.
    Ah like this

    https://youtu.be/sN1MkVfXeao
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    edited March 2017

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    If he's losing the support of the New Statesman, who the hell else does he have left - just the Morning Star?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184
    Surely there has to be a challenge to Corbyn now? Or, at least one in May after the next meltdown.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    On topic: good tip from @AlastairMeeks yesterday. As always, the good tips turn out to be the ones you didn't get on!
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184
    Sandpit said:

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    If he's losing the support of the New Statesman, who the hell else does he have left - just the Morning Star?
    New Statesman went some time ago iirc.

    Private Eye are keen on him staying.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    He didn't ask questions half the time.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Except the VVD is also technically the right, albeit the centre right not the far right, I think Rutte' s tough line with Turkey and tougher rhetoric on migration should see him home now
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,799

    Surely there has to be a challenge to Corbyn now? Or, at least one in May after the next meltdown.

    Are we going to get a Lab leadership election every Summer? :smiley:
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    The new statesman has never been a great fan of Corbyn, it is social democratic and not socialist
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Afternoon all - Good luck to all the PB punters, brave enough to venture into Dutch politics.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184
    Have we just seen the worst PMQs performance in living memory?
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    Another JC was stabbed in the back (and front too) by his own side on the Ides of March.

    Just a hint Labour.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,799

    Have we just seen the worst PMQs performance in living memory?

    Dunno... IDS turned in a few...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    It was the first PMQs I've watched live in ages. Corbyn was more awful than usual. A more interesting point is that May is utterly flat. If she was facing Blair, Hague or Cameron she'd be slaughtered. But she's facing Corbyn.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,799

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    It was the first PMQs I've watched live in ages. Corbyn was more awful than usual. A more interesting point is that May is utterly flat. If she was facing Blair, Hague or Cameron she'd be slaughtered. But she's facing Corbyn.
    She was on auto-pilot against Jezza but upped her game against Roberston, IMO.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    Sandpit said:

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    If he's losing the support of the New Statesman, who the hell else does he have left - just the Morning Star?
    New Statesman went some time ago iirc.

    Private Eye are keen on him staying.
    Private eye probably want him to stay for the same reasons you and I do! #Tories4Corbyn
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,184
    This is starting to make me really angry now. The country needs an Opposition. This is way way beyond funny now. Labour do something.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    Think Ronnie Rosenthal, but not even hitting the bar.
    Ah like this

    https://youtu.be/sN1MkVfXeao
    Worse. That guy didn't do in his cruciate ligament....
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    GIN1138 said:

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    It was the first PMQs I've watched live in ages. Corbyn was more awful than usual. A more interesting point is that May is utterly flat. If she was facing Blair, Hague or Cameron she'd be slaughtered. But she's facing Corbyn.
    She was on auto-pilot against Jezza but upped her game against Roberston, IMO.
    Didn't Robertson say something like "shrieking" when referring to her?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited March 2017
    Boost for the Democrats for the midterms, 49% oppose the healthcare bill Trump and Ryan are proposing with only 24% in favour, Trumpcare makes Obamacare look popular it seems
    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2017/03/only-24-of-voters-support-gop-health-care-plan.html
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    That bloke really is a flaming idiot.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,210
    If.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    glw said:

    That bloke really is a flaming idiot.
    Setting Tweets to automatic, doesn't work, particularly when Corbyn is involved in the event.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    The original Walter Mitty of Tw@tter - never wrong on anything...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    dr_spyn said:

    glw said:

    That bloke really is a flaming idiot.
    Setting Tweets to automatic, doesn't work, particularly when Corbyn is involved in the event.
    https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/842000895441268736
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    I didn't bet because there are too many similar three letter acronyms.

    FFS
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,922

    New Statesman:

    "More perhaps than any other occasion, today's PMQs was proof that Corbyn is leader of the opposition in name only."

    Didn't watch PMQs, how crap was Jez? What did he do/didn't do?
    It was the first PMQs I've watched live in ages. Corbyn was more awful than usual. A more interesting point is that May is utterly flat. If she was facing Blair, Hague or Cameron she'd be slaughtered. But she's facing Corbyn.

    May is extraordinarily lucky to be up against Corbyn. All she has to fear is the Tory press and as today's events show she is utterly terrified of them.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited March 2017
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    dr_spyn said:

    glw said:

    That bloke really is a flaming idiot.
    Setting Tweets to automatic, doesn't work, particularly when Corbyn is involved in the event.
    I didn't even notice the time, it was the content that I thought was idiotic.

    Labour really are in deep trouble, even if Corbyn went there must be a decent chance that his supporters would find someone worse to replace him.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    HYUFD said:
    Big question...barefoot or not?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    HYUFD said:
    Big question...barefoot or not?
    Probably not, doubt Fox News will let him in otherwise
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859

    dr_spyn said:

    glw said:

    That bloke really is a flaming idiot.
    Setting Tweets to automatic, doesn't work, particularly when Corbyn is involved in the event.
    https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/842000895441268736
    He's supposed to be the leader of the Opposition - if he turns up at PMQs unable to think of a line of questioning on a breaking government u-turn, then he really should stand aside in favour of someone who will.

    For all the #Tories4Corbyn jokes, the government really needs an opposition worthy of the name. Time to go, Jeremy.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited March 2017
    To be fair, Hilton when he has done long form interviews is actually quite interesting and not short of ideas...as long as you take everything with a pinch of salt.
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    JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    kle4 said:



    The tag-line flatters him - he's a reasonably well-known, respected middle-ranking CDU politician who has held a variety of solid posts. Influential? Nah.

    I am curious if you ever had a really flattering tagline attached to a story which you contributed to while in parliament - I feel like everyone has been reported as a 'senior backbencher' if they've been there more than a single term.
    @kle4 how about "Disappointing Nick Palmer"
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199980/BETRAYED-Spineless-Labour-MPs-backed-Aspergers-victims-bid-beat-extradition-desert-him.html
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    I didn't bet because there are too many similar three letter acronyms.

    LOL
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    glw said:

    dr_spyn said:

    glw said:

    That bloke really is a flaming idiot.
    Setting Tweets to automatic, doesn't work, particularly when Corbyn is involved in the event.
    I didn't even notice the time, it was the content that I thought was idiotic.

    Labour really are in deep trouble, even if Corbyn went there must be a decent chance that his supporters would find someone worse to replace him.
    That's the problem. When the MPs did finally organise a coup against him, they picked a candidate who made Corbyn look like a masterful leader.

    The problem all goes back to Brown. His ambition to be leader killed a whole generation of potential leaders within the Labour party: he plotted against them and demolished them. He left behind him an intellectual vacuum: their answer to Cameron was Miliband, ffs.

    And the new generation of Labour MPs - the 2010 and 2015 intake - are to a man and woman bland and soulless. I include even relative luminaries such as Starmer in that.

    Any new Labour leader needs a vision. Their problem is that any vision that will appeal to a majority of the public will repel the hard leftists who seem to vote within the party.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    That was 'second' in Dutch.

    What thoughts on the much higher than expected turnout that is being reported? Who does that help?

    I spoke to my God-daughter's husband last evening, he is Dutch. He seldom votes but is voting this time for Wilders and says his parents and brother are doing the same. He is from the extreme South of the Netherlands (Oisterwijk, near Eindhoven), which I understand is Wilders' home turf and the area of his greatest support. Straws in the wind, nothing more.
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Twitter
    Philip Sim‏ @BBCPhilipSim
    Asked about policy on full EU membership Mr Russell says "we will set out our position in advance of the choice so it is an informed choice"

    Philip Sim‏@BBCPhilipSim 24h24 hours ago
    Mike Russell says there will be "absolute clarity" on ScotGov's position towards EU membership by the time of indyref2; asks for "patience".
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    Sandpit said:

    dr_spyn said:

    glw said:

    That bloke really is a flaming idiot.
    Setting Tweets to automatic, doesn't work, particularly when Corbyn is involved in the event.
    https://twitter.com/LabourEoin/status/842000895441268736
    Oh, for crying out loud. Look, Eoin, mate, even if the media are all out to get him, even if they are all in cahoots with the Tories, if Corbyn keeps gifting them stuff it is still his bloody fault, he is still a failure of a leader even if he does face significant challenges.

    I'm with those getting angry at all this now. I went so far as to say I didn't think it inevitable Labour would do as badly under Corbyn as predicted, I still think the brand of the party is too strong to disappear, but the MPs had the right idea to go mostly quiet and give him rope to hang himself - without them, all we have is Corbyn's own screwups and the morons on twitter turning everything into a conspiracy against the great Jez. It looks terrible.
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    RobCRobC Posts: 398

    That was 'second' in Dutch.

    What thoughts on the much higher than expected turnout that is being reported? Who does that help?

    I spoke to my God-daughter's husband last evening, he is Dutch. He seldom votes but is voting this time for Wilders and says his parents and brother are doing the same. He is from the extreme South of the Netherlands (Oisterwijk, near Eindhoven), which I understand is Wilders' home turf and the area of his greatest support. Straws in the wind, nothing more.
    What is this thing about voting for people with weird hair?
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    Who could have seen the NI rise was "bollocks"
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    That was 'second' in Dutch.

    What thoughts on the much higher than expected turnout that is being reported? Who does that help?

    I spoke to my God-daughter's husband last evening, he is Dutch. He seldom votes but is voting this time for Wilders and says his parents and brother are doing the same. He is from the extreme South of the Netherlands (Oisterwijk, near Eindhoven), which I understand is Wilders' home turf and the area of his greatest support. Straws in the wind, nothing more.

    "from the extreme South"

    Is that a geographic or political adjective, Mr Llama?

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719
    fitalass said:

    Twitter
    Philip Sim‏ @BBCPhilipSim
    Asked about policy on full EU membership Mr Russell says "we will set out our position in advance of the choice so it is an informed choice"

    Philip Sim‏@BBCPhilipSim 24h24 hours ago
    Mike Russell says there will be "absolute clarity" on ScotGov's position towards EU membership by the time of indyref2; asks for "patience".

    Rule of thumb when it comes to political excuses (and also scandals) - how would the side using it react if their opponents used it? If it would be outrage or criticism, the excuse is probably weak.
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    Who could have seen the NI rise was "bollocks"

    Mark Reckless?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    RobC said:

    That was 'second' in Dutch.

    What thoughts on the much higher than expected turnout that is being reported? Who does that help?

    I spoke to my God-daughter's husband last evening, he is Dutch. He seldom votes but is voting this time for Wilders and says his parents and brother are doing the same. He is from the extreme South of the Netherlands (Oisterwijk, near Eindhoven), which I understand is Wilders' home turf and the area of his greatest support. Straws in the wind, nothing more.
    What is this thing about voting for people with weird hair?
    Do you have a long-odds bet on Michael Fabricant?
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    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    just heard Corbyn at PMQ's .. is he useless or is he useless.
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    Who could have seen the NI rise was "bollocks"

    Mark Reckless?
    Indeed - it was that crass, even he could. We know how low a bar that is therefore.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:

    Send Phil a copy of this - https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Checklist-Manifesto-How-Things-Right-Atul-Gawande/1846683149/
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302

    I didn't bet because there are too many similar three letter acronyms.

    FFS
    I'm serious. I could feel myself becoming dyslexic just looking at the table.

    Too much hard work. It gave me a headache.
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    This is starting to make me really angry now. The country needs an Opposition. This is way way beyond funny now. Labour do something.
    As with all previous occasions when Corbyn has upset people, the rest of the Labour Party will almost certainly continue to do absolutely nothing about it. The MPs have given up - out of despair, because they're too emotionally invested in Labour to dump it, or because they're too frightened to split off (and probably a combination of all three in most cases.) Corbyn's support amongst the membership has declined, but I reckon that most of the losses are hardcore Europhiles: most of his supporters aren't going anywhere, and that makes him impossible to shift through another leadership challenge. The Unions are powerless to do anything, even if they wanted to - apart from withdrawing funds, which would probably precipitate the collapse of the wider Labour movement in any case.

    The most likely scenario, especially with A50 notification due imminently, is that the Conservatives will still be polling in the mid-40s in a months' time - despite all the brouhaha over NICs, and also because the latest unemployment figures have just come out and show another quarterly drop.

    I wholeheartedly agree that it would be much better for all concerned to have a strong Opposition, but for so long as the main Opposition party is controlled by the Far Left it is even more important that it remain weak. There are worse things than any potential damage caused by embarrassing budget u-turns, or Scottish referendums, or setbacks in Brexit talks - and one of those is the notion of the Far Left getting its hands on real power in this country.

    If Labour is incapable of reforming itself then it must be crushed at a General Election, and be seen to be crushed. Perhaps then, in time, something better might emerge to replace it?
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    I didn't bet because there are too many similar three letter acronyms.

    FFS
    I'm serious. I could feel myself becoming dyslexic just looking at the table.

    Too much hard work. It gave me a headache.
    Normally I don't bet on elections in countries where I can't speak the lingo, but Alastair's piece persuaded me to break my rule.
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    Would Corbyn go before they've got the John Mcdonnell amendment through Conference Re nomination thresholds?
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    This is starting to make me really angry now. The country needs an Opposition. This is way way beyond funny now. Labour do something.
    As with all previous occasions when Corbyn has upset people, the rest of the Labour Party will almost certainly continue to do absolutely nothing about it. The MPs have given up - out of despair, because they're too emotionally invested in Labour to dump it, or because they're too frightened to split off (and probably a combination of all three in most cases.) Corbyn's support amongst the membership has declined, but I reckon that most of the losses are hardcore Europhiles: most of his supporters aren't going anywhere, and that makes him impossible to shift through another leadership challenge. The Unions are powerless to do anything, even if they wanted to - apart from withdrawing funds, which would probably precipitate the collapse of the wider Labour movement in any case.

    The most likely scenario, especially with A50 notification due imminently, is that the Conservatives will still be polling in the mid-40s in a months' time - despite all the brouhaha over NICs, and also because the latest unemployment figures have just come out and show another quarterly drop.

    I wholeheartedly agree that it would be much better for all concerned to have a strong Opposition, but for so long as the main Opposition party is controlled by the Far Left it is even more important that it remain weak. There are worse things than any potential damage caused by embarrassing budget u-turns, or Scottish referendums, or setbacks in Brexit talks - and one of those is the notion of the Far Left getting its hands on real power in this country.

    If Labour is incapable of reforming itself then it must be crushed at a General Election, and be seen to be crushed. Perhaps then, in time, something better might emerge to replace it?
    its quite possible the Tories could increase their poll lead after this u Turn, but Hammond is going to get the money back somehow..........
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    RobCRobC Posts: 398
    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    Strikes me TM panicked. Although the C4 NIC rise was not popular with the self employed, the far more numerous employed section of the population who have no choice in these matters supported the move quite strongly. Short term politics trumping economics again.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,302
    FWIW my sense is that Wilders will underperform because he's simply taken his rhetoric and policy too far.

    My thesis (throughout almost all of Western politics) as well is that voters will start returning to mainstream parties just as soon as they take their concerns on migration/identity seriously. Otherwise, they stick with the fringes until they learn the lesson.

    i.e. UKIP/Leave Labourites > May Tories, and Wilderites (VVPVPV) > Rutte (PVPVPVVV).

    Merkel may just be about to learn this lesson too. The hard way.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    edited March 2017
    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    That would be a good start, but is not enough. I hate to say this, but spin is a factor. For each measure, look at the disadvantages (and there will always be people disadvantaged in budgets). Create lines to counter any criticisms, and for big measures, counter-proposals ("we're taking from the self-employed with measure a, but measure g will see them better off by £200 a year").

    The government tried to spin the NIC rise by using a measure previously announced by Osborne that advantaged the self-employed, but it didn't work. Firstly because that measure was announced by a previous government and chancellor, and secondly because it was very old news.

    It's very important to note that the noisiest criticism of the measure came from the media and the government's own backbenchers.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Think this is quite normal in Whitehall based on memories of various previous letters.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    I didn't bet because there are too many similar three letter acronyms.

    FFS
    I'm serious. I could feel myself becoming dyslexic just looking at the table.

    Too much hard work. It gave me a headache.
    Normally I don't bet on elections in countries where I can't speak the lingo, but Alastair's piece persuaded me to break my rule.
    You missed out on the Scottish elections too, then?
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    RobC said:

    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    Strikes me TM panicked. Although the C4 NIC rise was not popular with the self employed, the far more numerous employed section of the population who have no choice in these matters supported the move quite strongly. Short term politics trumping economics again.
    Manifesto, Manifesto, Manifesto. That's the be-all and end-all here. It was a cock-up and it's been reversed, but it's also hopefully signalled the future direction of policy once an election has intervened.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    That was 'second' in Dutch.

    What thoughts on the much higher than expected turnout that is being reported? Who does that help?

    I spoke to my God-daughter's husband last evening, he is Dutch. He seldom votes but is voting this time for Wilders and says his parents and brother are doing the same. He is from the extreme South of the Netherlands (Oisterwijk, near Eindhoven), which I understand is Wilders' home turf and the area of his greatest support. Straws in the wind, nothing more.

    "from the extreme South"

    Is that a geographic or political adjective, Mr Llama?

    Good spot, Mr. Hopkins and it made me smile. Strictly geographical I am afraid. He is a nice enough bloke, bit of an IT wizard from a well to do middle-class family (daddy is a retired dentist). Not the sort of folk you would think would be voting for an extreme-right wing party. That said, I remember from some ten years ago tensions in Oisterwijk over an asylum centre on the edge of the town and I don't suppose those have eased.

    Who knows, I claim no special knowledge and was just replying with some thoughts to Mr. Tyndall's question up-thread.
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    I didn't bet because there are too many similar three letter acronyms.

    FFS
    I'm serious. I could feel myself becoming dyslexic just looking at the table.

    Too much hard work. It gave me a headache.
    Normally I don't bet on elections in countries where I can't speak the lingo, but Alastair's piece persuaded me to break my rule.
    You missed out on the Scottish elections too, then?
    Harsh.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    kle4 said:



    The tag-line flatters him - he's a reasonably well-known, respected middle-ranking CDU politician who has held a variety of solid posts. Influential? Nah.

    I am curious if you ever had a really flattering tagline attached to a story which you contributed to while in parliament - I feel like everyone has been reported as a 'senior backbencher' if they've been there more than a single term.
    @kle4 how about "Disappointing Nick Palmer"
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1199980/BETRAYED-Spineless-Labour-MPs-backed-Aspergers-victims-bid-beat-extradition-desert-him.html
    'Disappointing' is presumably a pretty mild invective for a Mail tagline.
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    RobCRobC Posts: 398

    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    That would be a good start, but is not enough. I hate to say this, but spin is a factor. For each measure, look at the disadvantages (and there will always be people disadvantaged in budgets). Create lines to counter any criticisms, and for big measures, counter-proposals ("we're taking from the self-employed with measure a, but measure g will see them better off by £200 a year").

    The government tried to spin the NIC rise by using a measure previously announced by Osborne that advantaged the self-employed, but it didn't work. Firstly because that measure was announced by a previous government and chancellor, and secondly because it was very old news.

    It's very important to note that the noisiest criticism of the measure came from the media and the government's own backbenchers.
    A slightly smarter opposition would have supported the C4 NI move. It was a progressive centrist measure that looked to begin to address the shortfall in public finances in the light of our new economy. Ok the amount raised was small but the principle was correct. If they had done so they could have roasted the overrated Hammond today.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Think this is quite normal in Whitehall based on memories of various previous letters.

    Yes, looks standard to me. Someone trying to read too much into it.

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    RobC said:

    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    Strikes me TM panicked. Although the C4 NIC rise was not popular with the self employed, the far more numerous employed section of the population who have no choice in these matters supported the move quite strongly. Short term politics trumping economics again.
    Manifesto, Manifesto, Manifesto. That's the be-all and end-all here.
    Except sometimes it may be necessary to divert from the manifesto in response to events. Was it necessary here? They decided it was, then decided it wasn't, but flexibility is going to be necessary sometimes, and given they thought it necessary here at first (or they were idiots and forgot about it), cowering at the first hint of opposition does not speak well as to their determination or forward planning, since either they thought it good and are pretending it is not now because of outcry, or they realised too late it was crap, showing they plan very poorly. They won't always have the option of backing off, and 'it's a manifesto commitment' is a reason to stick with something in most instances, not as something carved into stone.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,719

    Think this is quite normal in Whitehall based on memories of various previous letters.

    Yes, looks standard to me. Someone trying to read too much into it.

    Agreed - it's probably been circulating for days being tweaked and approved at various stages.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    Obviously Mr Waugh is unaware of the protocol of letters whereby the month is typed and the date (and salutation, and signature) is written in.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,190
    Pathetic behavior over the NiC increase. The government has marshmallows for balls.

    I imagine Barnier and co are looking, laughing and learning.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    Cheltenham

    @freetochoose good effort 1/1 so far. And now we wait...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    RobC said:

    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    That would be a good start, but is not enough. I hate to say this, but spin is a factor. For each measure, look at the disadvantages (and there will always be people disadvantaged in budgets). Create lines to counter any criticisms, and for big measures, counter-proposals ("we're taking from the self-employed with measure a, but measure g will see them better off by £200 a year").

    The government tried to spin the NIC rise by using a measure previously announced by Osborne that advantaged the self-employed, but it didn't work. Firstly because that measure was announced by a previous government and chancellor, and secondly because it was very old news.

    It's very important to note that the noisiest criticism of the measure came from the media and the government's own backbenchers.
    A slightly smarter opposition would have supported the C4 NI move. It was a progressive centrist measure that looked to begin to address the shortfall in public finances in the light of our new economy. Ok the amount raised was small but the principle was correct. If they had done so they could have roasted the overrated Hammond today.
    Absolutely that's the way they should have played it, and today could have challenged the govt as to what spending would be cut to pay for the 'tax cut', social care?

    The problem is that under Corbyn there isn't a functioning Opposition.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
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    Cyclefree said:

    Pathetic behavior over the NiC increase. The government has marshmallows for balls.

    I imagine Barnier and co are looking, laughing and learning.

    Mrs Sturgeon too.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Sandpit said:

    RobC said:

    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    That would be a good start, but is not enough. I hate to say this, but spin is a factor. For each measure, look at the disadvantages (and there will always be people disadvantaged in budgets). Create lines to counter any criticisms, and for big measures, counter-proposals ("we're taking from the self-employed with measure a, but measure g will see them better off by £200 a year").

    The government tried to spin the NIC rise by using a measure previously announced by Osborne that advantaged the self-employed, but it didn't work. Firstly because that measure was announced by a previous government and chancellor, and secondly because it was very old news.

    It's very important to note that the noisiest criticism of the measure came from the media and the government's own backbenchers.
    A slightly smarter opposition would have supported the C4 NI move. It was a progressive centrist measure that looked to begin to address the shortfall in public finances in the light of our new economy. Ok the amount raised was small but the principle was correct. If they had done so they could have roasted the overrated Hammond today.
    Absolutely that's the way they should have played it, and today could have challenged the govt as to what spending would be cut to pay for the 'tax cut', social care?

    The problem is that under Corbyn there isn't a functioning Opposition.
    Even if Labour was led by someone sensible such as Umuna, do Labour have the discipline to support the government with a view to taking advantage of a U-turn when it arrives? Personally, I don't think so.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    Cyclefree said:

    Pathetic behavior over the NiC increase. The government has marshmallows for balls.

    I imagine Barnier and co are looking, laughing and learning.

    This was on account of popular, ie media outcry. I doubt there will be the same furore over some arcane piece of EU legislation one way or the other and if there is, I doubt there will be an audience for it.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,859
    Tory MPs not happy at spending a week defending a tax rise, only for it to be rescinded by the Chancellor. Poor Rory Stewart was live with Andrew Neil when the announcement came, and hadn't been briefed.
    https://order-order.com/2017/03/15/rory-stewart-hit-nics-u-turn-live-tv/
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Patrick said:

    Could I humbly suggest that Chancellors are given a clusterfuck-control-checklist to go through before every budget:
    1. Is this in breach of a manifesto commitment?
    2. Is this going to incense our core vote?
    3. Is this going to drive a backbench rebellion?
    4. Is this going to make the chancellor and/or PM look stupid/mean/clueless/otherwise lame?
    5. How will our opponents use this to damage us?
    6. Is there an underlying vision that this builds towards?
    7. How will the press and experts react?
    8. Does this make tax and spend simpler and more transparent?
    9. etc -

    Mr. Patrick, I fear you underestimate the power of the treasury mandarins. Treasury policy is set by Treasury officials. Chancellors are there to implement Treasury policy not to form it. Occasionally, it appears that the reverse is true but that is only a smoke and mirrors job whereby a Chancellor is allowed to pretend he is in charge as long as the Treasury gets more control over the workings of government departments.

    I had high hopes of Hammond, but he has disappointed. I thought for a while that he might actually confine himself to his own job - balancing the books whilst raising the cash needed by the spending departments (a pretty damn big job all on its own). Alas, he seems to have become house-trained very quickly. HMT uber alles and all that.

    Maybe one day we will again have a PM who can put HMT in their proper place
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,937
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Pathetic behavior over the NiC increase. The government has marshmallows for balls.

    I imagine Barnier and co are looking, laughing and learning.

    This was on account of popular, ie media outcry. I doubt there will be the same furore over some arcane piece of EU legislation one way or the other and if there is, I doubt there will be an audience for it.
    And an outcry from loads of backbench Conservatives as well.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    This time next week Article 50 should have been invoked, just imagine the balls up Corbyn can make out of that!
This discussion has been closed.