I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
What puzzles me is that we have full employment, with loads of Easten Europeans ‘taking our jobs.’ And we were pretty close to full employment from early 2016 onwards.
Of course I’m well aware that the influx of said EE’s has held down wages rates, but if we stop EE immigration where are the people going to come from to do these jobs?
Duh, Radio Nottingham has just rung to say they'd like to interview m in minutes on Osborne and the Standard. Need to decide what I actually think about that - think I'm more worried about politicians running newspapers than about the issue of representing Tatton properly, which is up to voters there.
I think it is a sign that bright politicians are realising that the main political force in this country is now the media and if they want to change and control things, then the media is where they need to be.
Media actually has more power and influence on the decisions these days than democratically elected politicians. Witness T May's bowing down to pressure from several newspapers over the NI increase, or the way the media have totally destroyed Corbyn and turned "Corbyn cannot win an election" into a national meme.
Joanna Cherry is using a lot of Theresa May's lines on Sky at the moment... "Free trade with Scotland is not just in Scotland's interests, it's also in the interests of the rest of the UK."
Yes but that depends on the EU keeping free trade with the UK when May ends free movement from the EU or Scotland leaving the UK and not joining the EEA
If Scotland leaves the union what May things about any subject whatsoever will be immaterial. She'll be out on her ear.
No because free trade from an independent Scotland in the EEA to the UK depends on May concluding a soft Brexit from the EU and certainly avoiding WTO terms
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Joanna Cherry is using a lot of Theresa May's lines on Sky at the moment... "Free trade with Scotland is not just in Scotland's interests, it's also in the interests of the rest of the UK."
Yes but that depends on the EU keeping free trade with the UK when May ends free movement from the EU or Scotland leaving the UK and not joining the EEA
If Scotland leaves the union what May things about any subject whatsoever will be immaterial. She'll be out on her ear.
I doubt that's any more true now than Juncker being out on his ear since the UK voted to leave the union.
If Scotland votes to leave then that will be for the Scots to own.
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
What puzzles me is that we have full employment, with loads of Easten Europeans ‘taking our jobs.’ And we were pretty close to full employment from early 2016 onwards.
Of course I’m well aware that the influx of said EE’s has held down wages rates, but if we stop EE immigration where are the people going to come from to do these jobs?
Perhaps those on benefits could be employed, we have millions of them receiving largesse whilst the EE's do the jobs they should be employed in.
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
Joanna Cherry is using a lot of Theresa May's lines on Sky at the moment... "Free trade with Scotland is not just in Scotland's interests, it's also in the interests of the rest of the UK."
Yes but that depends on the EU keeping free trade with the UK when May ends free movement from the EU or Scotland leaving the UK and not joining the EEA
If Scotland leaves the union what May things about any subject whatsoever will be immaterial. She'll be out on her ear.
I doubt that's any more true now than Juncker being out on his ear since the UK voted to leave the union.
If Scotland votes to leave then that will be for the Scots to own.
The two situations are not comparable. May has ramped up the unionist rhetoric to 11 in the past few days. If the union doesn't hold, it's her own lookout.
There was also an incident yesterday where 'someone in Muslim clothing' slit his brothers and fathers throats in broad daylight in a posh Parisian neighbourhood.
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Well.England is still the largest entity in the UK now
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
What puzzles me is that we have full employment, with loads of Easten Europeans ‘taking our jobs.’ And we were pretty close to full employment from early 2016 onwards.
Of course I’m well aware that the influx of said EE’s has held down wages rates, but if we stop EE immigration where are the people going to come from to do these jobs?
There is never a static supply of jobs. Nobody is ever "just" a worker but every single person is a consumer too.
More people = more demand = more jobs. Less people = less demand = less jobs.
Whether the UK's population is 10mn, 60mn, 70mn, 100mn or 200mn is absolutely inconsequential for the unemployment rate.
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Malc, we'll invade 'em and just call it all England.
Joanna Cherry is using a lot of Theresa May's lines on Sky at the moment... "Free trade with Scotland is not just in Scotland's interests, it's also in the interests of the rest of the UK."
Yes but that depends on the EU keeping free trade with the UK when May ends free movement from the EU or Scotland leaving the UK and not joining the EEA
If Scotland leaves the union what May things about any subject whatsoever will be immaterial. She'll be out on her ear.
I doubt that's any more true now than Juncker being out on his ear since the UK voted to leave the union.
If Scotland votes to leave then that will be for the Scots to own.
The two situations are not comparable. May has ramped up the unionist rhetoric to 11 in the past few days. If the union doesn't hold, it's her own lookout.
It is holding as most polls show, problem for Juncker was he never showed the same passion to keep the UK
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc - I do expect powers will be devolved as long as there is goodwill - the whole process will take many years to evolve but I cannot see Nicola's referendum taking place before 2021. I am interested to know if you agree that Nicola has jumped the gun and would have been prudent to wait at least until the end of Brexit talks and then demand the referendum
Morning G, They will never devolve any of the meaningful powers that can make a difference, it is all tinkering on the edges. I think she had to go for it , Tories are treating Scottish parliament like sh** and May's treating Scotland like a colony will only cause more of a stir. Lots of moves to come and I doubt that position will hold.
While working in Edinburgh I met my wife to be and when I travelled to meet her parents in Lossiemouth I was introduced as an Englishman (though I am as much Welsh as English) but that ' he is not too bad for an Englishman'. This was in the early sixties but I was soon part of the family, not least because having had my childhood in Berwick and worked in Edinburgh I had no difficulty with the North East tongue.
My Father in law was a highly successful fisherman who was one of the finest persons I have ever had the priveledge to know. He was proud of his heritage and had many stories about fishing and his exploits. He was pro the Union and was angry about the effect the EU had on the Scottish fishing fleet.
If he had been alive today he would have been saddened at the polarised nature of the debates and most certainly would have been pro SNP, pro Brexit but for the Union.
I believe there are many in Scotland with this view which also is the view of my wife and I.
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
I think silver spoons are more often found - not stuck in mouths but elsewhere !
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
Brown was shouting "British Jobs For British Workers" in September 2007.
Immigration was already having an effect upon working class Labour supporters before the recession.
Yep - I have very different views of those who voted for Brexit and those who led the Brexit campaign. I fear that the latter are going to let the former down big-time.
I totally get why Leave won - huge numbers of people feel that they have no real stake in the country as it currently functions (which is why Scottish independence is so attractive too, of course). What I don't see is how Brexit will change anything, except for the worse at the margins. It doesn't have to be like that, but the Hard Brexit path we have embarked on means that it probably will be.
I'm with you. Brexit isn't going to solve a single real problem we have. It's going to make several real problems we do have that much harder to solve as well as introducing new ones. But I am sympathetic to those that felt left behind and voted to make their voices heard. It's all very well us liberals saying our way is superior, but we were the ones leaving those people behind.
One very real problem we have that it will address is the buck-passing politicians won't be able to say "because Brussels ..." to problems anymore.
I am absolutely certain they will continue to say "because Brussels ..."And if they didn't the problems still wouldn't be solved, hence the buck passing.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
I note that within Browns interesting speech on a federal UK he has nothing to say on an English Parliament however.
If we are going to go truly federal after Brexit it's only fair the English are given their own Parliament.
He also has nothing to say on HoL reform which must surely be part of any federal solution.
So it's typical Brown really... Thinking about the Scot's but nothing else to say about the other regions.
But I have to give Gord credit. At least he is facing up to the reality the UK is now in... Unlike Blair, Major, Heseltine and the rest of the establishment who still seem to be completely denial about Brexit and what comes afterwards.
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Well.England is still the largest entity in the UK now
Of course it is but you cannot have a "United" if you are on your jack jones
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
I think Brexit won because of Black Wednesday.
Ultimately the UK is too big and too proud a nation to be in the EU but not in the Euro.
Opting out of the euro at its inception bought us 10 years but, ultimately, the UK had a choice of EU + Euro and co-leading both, or to Leave and plough its own path.
The EU simply weren't willing to do the reforms necessary to make a multi-tiered EU work in the long-term. That would have become apparent even if we'd voted to Remain.
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
What do you mean "Only a matter of time"...SeanT regularly shows us his holiday snaps...well the ones that are suitable for work ones anyway.
two days ago it was the english caused Brexit, now it's the british
I now realise I should have voted to remain to keep the Irish happy.
it will be a long wait
SO and I have been on this board for many years and he still hasnt apologised to me for causing the potato famine.
git.
That was the right wing, English nationalist, protestant ascendency, of which I am not part ;-)
I'm surprised to find you were alive in the 1840s
My ancestors were - destitute, deprived of any democratic representation and held in contempt by the protestant ascendency.
So were (some of) mine, and they lived in Yorkshire and Westmorland.
In the 1840s, nearly all the country was deprived of any democratic representation and given little consideration in the political process.
It was viewed differently back then. MPs, of the time, would have viewed themselves as virtual representatives of the whole community and leaders of their its interests, and acting altogether in Parliament in the national interest.
"Democracy" was a bit of a dirty word associated with revolutions.
Yes, they would, although it didn't work that well in practice and is a good example of rationalising a moral benefit to the protection of the interests of their own class, or at least, the classes who were directly engaged in politics.
Yes, but it's interesting how some have now come full circle and are making the same non-democratic arguments about the outcome of the EU referendum.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc - I do expect powers will be devolved as long as there is goodwill - the whole process will take many years to evolve but I cannot see Nicola's referendum taking place before 2021. I am interested to know if you agree that Nicola has jumped the gun and would have been prudent to wait at least until the end of Brexit talks and then demand the referendum
Morning G, They will never devolve any of the meaningful powers that can make a difference, it is all tinkering on the edges. I think she had to go for it , Tories are treating Scottish parliament like sh** and May's treating Scotland like a colony will only cause more of a stir. Lots of moves to come and I doubt that position will hold.
If he had been alive today he would have been saddened at the polarised nature of the debates and most certainly would have been pro SNP, pro Brexit but for the Union.
I believe there are many in Scotland with this view which also is the view of my wife and I.
I hope this explains why I support the Union
G, no problem supporting the union , my gripe is that, that union is no longer there. Westminster rule the roost and have done so badly for many years now and they seem determined to wreck the union. It is only a matter of time as more and more people realise they are treated as a colony and not a partner.
There was also an incident yesterday where 'someone in Muslim clothing' slit his brothers and fathers throats in broad daylight in a posh Parisian neighbourhood.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
GIN, hard to see Labour getting it together any time soon, they have nobody capable of ever gaining power.
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
What do you mean "Only a matter of time"...SeanT regularly shows us his holiday snaps...well the ones that are suitable for work ones anyway.
What is it with trying to drive off other posters?
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
And how much tax they pay *yawn*
Self employed. Therefore they pay discounted NIC.
Will also pay minimum tax as they "Avoid" it compared to your average PAYE worker.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
I note that within Browns interesting speech on a federal UK he has nothing to say on an English Parliament however.
If we are going to go truly federal after Brexit it's only fair the English are given their own Parliament.
He also has nothing to say on HoL reform which must surely be part of any federal solution.
So it's typical Brown really... Thinking about the Scot's but nothing else to say about the other regions.
But I have to give Gord credit. At least he is facing up to the reality the UK is now in... Unlike Blair, Major, Heseltine and the rest of the establishment who still seem to be completely denial about Brexit and what comes afterwards.
I hold no brief for Brown, but perhaps he feels it's up to English politicians to make their own case. How much of a hearing are English voters likely to give him?
Kom News #BREAKING: Turkey's Erdogan says capital punishment to be restored in country following constitutional referendum - Kom News #Turkey https://t.co/eefxUNqPcq
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Malc, we'll invade 'em and just call it all England.
TFS was that not already done many times. BBC think UK = England already.
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Well.England is still the largest entity in the UK now
Of course it is but you cannot have a "United" if you are on your jack jones
So two out of three small nations in the UK don't count for diddly squat in your eyes, but the other small nation in the UK is immensely important. Where is the line drawn that means Wales and Northern Ireland are so puny as to be completely inconsequential to you and why should we not apply that logic to Scots?
There was also an incident yesterday where 'someone in Muslim clothing' slit his brothers and fathers throats in broad daylight in a posh Parisian neighbourhood.
I am sure just a minor family dispute.
But they were in "Muslim clothing". I wonder what clothes did Fred West and Harold Shipman used to wear ?
The union, for a vast majority of its history, has survived with Scotland being represented in Westminster only, and it has always been able to be out voted by 'England'. Except England is not represented in Westminster, constituencies are, and they all have equal weight and say.
To say Scotland is being treated like a colony is ridiculous. It has much greater autonomy and control than any area of England.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
I note that within Browns interesting speech on a federal UK he has nothing to say on an English Parliament however.
If we are going to go truly federal after Brexit it's only fair the English are given their own Parliament.
He also has nothing to say on HoL reform which must surely be part of any federal solution.
So it's typical Brown really... Thinking about the Scot's but nothing else to say about the other regions.
But I have to give Gord credit. At least he is facing up to the reality the UK is now in... Unlike Blair, Major, Heseltine and the rest of the establishment who still seem to be completely denial about Brexit and what comes afterwards.
I hold no brief for Brown, but perhaps he feels it's up to English politicians to make their own case. How much of a hearing are English voters likely to give him?
Well he was UK Prime Minister and (hopefully) governed with the English, Welsh and Northern Irish as well as Scottish in mind?
Although I was never a fan, personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening or can be somehow reversed, Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
Kom News #BREAKING: Turkey's Erdogan says capital punishment to be restored in country following constitutional referendum - Kom News #Turkey https://t.co/eefxUNqPcq
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving -
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
Well.England is still the largest entity in the UK now
Of course it is but you cannot have a "United" if you are on your jack jones
So two out of three small nations in the UK don't count for diddly squat in your eyes, but the other small nation in the UK is immensely important. Where is the line drawn that means Wales and Northern Ireland are so puny as to be completely inconsequential to you and why should we not apply that logic to Scots?
LOL, In your eyes you t***, when do they ever get a mention , they are seen as nobodies by Westminster and the ruling elite. You constantly see comments about them sponging, as you do Scotland.
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
Brown was shouting "British Jobs For British Workers" in September 2007.
Immigration was already having an effect upon working class Labour supporters before the recession.
A humongous lie from Labour in 2003-4 changed the lives of millions of working class people. Instead of acknowledging the deceit, Blair, Brown then Cameron doubled down on it and blamed those whose lives were affected for complaining.
"Bigoted woman" "Closet racists" etc etc
Without all that it is extremely unlikely we would have voted for Brexit. UKIP would never have got an MP or anywhere near 13% of the vote
I see the BBC still have no idea about the attacker in Paris or any possible motive....Even the Guardian are reporting information about the attacker etc. I blame Tory cuts.
The last batch of nominations for the French presidency was published today. The following 11 candidates received 500+:
FILLON François 3635 HAMON Benoît 2039 MACRON Emmanuel 1829 MELENCHON Jean-Luc 805 LASSALLE Jean 708 DUPONT-AIGNAN Nicolas 707 ARTHAUD Nathalie 637 LE PEN Marine 627 ASSELINEAU François 587 POUTOU Philippe 573 CHEMINADE Jacques 528
Although I was never a fan personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
Thinking about what happens after 2019 is all well and good, but it's what happens before then that really matters. The path of least resistance is increasingly pointing towards Scottish independence.
The union, for a vast majority of its history, has survived with Scotland being represented in Westminster only, and it has always been able to be out voted by 'England'. Except England is not represented in Westminster, constituencies are, and they all have equal weight and say.
To say Scotland is being treated like a colony is ridiculous. It has much greater autonomy and control than any area of England.
Westminster is the English parliament, whatever England wants it can vote and get it. Scotland has to beg for anything it would like and nowadays we get put in our place like a pet dog. If you think that is good for Scotland you need to take a look at yourself and get a backbone. It is no longer a union , we are a colony.
Kom News #BREAKING: Turkey's Erdogan says capital punishment to be restored in country following constitutional referendum - Kom News #Turkey https://t.co/eefxUNqPcq
So, that's EU membership out then.
I don't think Erdogan ever gave a toss about that. Others might have.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc - I do expect powers will be devolved as long as there is goodwill - the whole process will take many years to evolve but I cannot see Nicola's referendum taking place before 2021. I am interested to know if you agree that Nicola has jumped the gun and would have been prudent to wait at least until the end of Brexit talks and then demand the referendum
Morning G, They will never devolve any of the meaningful powers that can make a difference, it is all tinkering on the edges. I think she had to go for it , Tories are treating Scottish parliament like sh** and May's treating Scotland like a colony will only cause more of a stir. Lots of moves to come and I doubt that position will hold.
If he had been alive today he would have been saddened at the polarised nature of the debates and most certainly would have been pro SNP, pro Brexit but for the Union.
I believe there are many in Scotland with this view which also is the view of my wife and I.
I hope this explains why I support the Union
G, no problem supporting the union , my gripe is that, that union is no longer there. Westminster rule the roost and have done so badly for many years now and they seem determined to wreck the union. It is only a matter of time as more and more people realise they are treated as a colony and not a partner.
I am more optimistic about the future and do believe that further powers will be devolved to Scotland - indeed in time the UK could become more of a federal state but it follows that an English Parliament would be part of the process. This of course will take years but let's hope that sense will prevail and a solution will become apparent for everyone that does not include separation
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
I note that within Browns interesting speech on a federal UK he has nothing to say on an English Parliament however.
If we are going to go truly federal after Brexit it's only fair the English are given their own Parliament.
He also has nothing to say on HoL reform which must surely be part of any federal solution.
So it's typical Brown really... Thinking about the Scot's but nothing else to say about the other regions.
But I have to give Gord credit. At least he is facing up to the reality the UK is now in... Unlike Blair, Major, Heseltine and the rest of the establishment who still seem to be completely denial about Brexit and what comes afterwards.
I hold no brief for Brown, but perhaps he feels it's up to English politicians to make their own case. How much of a hearing are English voters likely to give him?
To be fair, probably not much of one. He's a busted flush South of the border. I think England suffers from a general apathy about English Nationalism. It's been uncool to be English for quite a while, and the flag is often sneered at for being racist and offensive to minorities after being appropriated by the far right. We need to reclaim that, and try and make England relevant again. I appreciate that England is the biggest part of the Union and dominant in its power at Westminster, but it is really a timid beast.
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
What puzzles me is that we have full employment, with loads of Easten Europeans ‘taking our jobs.’ And we were pretty close to full employment from early 2016 onwards.
Of course I’m well aware that the influx of said EE’s has held down wages rates, but if we stop EE immigration where are the people going to come from to do these jobs?
There is never a static supply of jobs. Nobody is ever "just" a worker but every single person is a consumer too.
More people = more demand = more jobs. Less people = less demand = less jobs.
Whether the UK's population is 10mn, 60mn, 70mn, 100mn or 200mn is absolutely inconsequential for the unemployment rate.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
I note that within Browns interesting speech on a federal UK he has nothing to say on an English Parliament however.
If we are going to go truly federal after Brexit it's only fair the English are given their own Parliament.
He also has nothing to say on HoL reform which must surely be part of any federal solution.
So it's typical Brown really... Thinking about the Scot's but nothing else to say about the other regions.
But I have to give Gord credit. At least he is facing up to the reality the UK is now in... Unlike Blair, Major, Heseltine and the rest of the establishment who still seem to be completely denial about Brexit and what comes afterwards.
I hold no brief for Brown, but perhaps he feels it's up to English politicians to make their own case. How much of a hearing are English voters likely to give him?
Well he was UK Prime Minister and (hopefully) governed with the English, Welsh and Northern Irish as well as Scottish in mind?
Although I was never a fan, personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening or can be somehow reversed, Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
GIN, he will spout utter crap just as he has always done , he was always useless. Him and his party voted against everything the idiot says should now happen. How many times do you listen to a lying toerag.
Kom News #BREAKING: Turkey's Erdogan says capital punishment to be restored in country following constitutional referendum - Kom News #Turkey https://t.co/eefxUNqPcq
Although I was never a fan personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
Thinking about what happens after 2019 is all well and good, but it's what happens before then that really matters. The path of least resistance is increasingly pointing towards Scottish independence.
Well my position on that is as it always has been. If Scotland wants to leave the the Union then I wish them farewell and all the best as they forge their new future.
What remains of the former UK can still move forwards into a federal system post Brexit though. Why not?
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
What puzzles me is that we have full employment, with loads of Easten Europeans ‘taking our jobs.’ And we were pretty close to full employment from early 2016 onwards.
Of course I’m well aware that the influx of said EE’s has held down wages rates, but if we stop EE immigration where are the people going to come from to do these jobs?
There is never a static supply of jobs. Nobody is ever "just" a worker but every single person is a consumer too.
More people = more demand = more jobs. Less people = less demand = less jobs.
Whether the UK's population is 10mn, 60mn, 70mn, 100mn or 200mn is absolutely inconsequential for the unemployment rate.
These people do exist and they would exist regardless of what the population is. Just as all dogs are animals but not all animals are dogs - all workers are consumers but not all consumers are workers.
Some people just don't want to work, or just aren't cut out for it, or prefer to rely upon the welfare state, or are temporarily between jobs etc - it has absolutely nothing at all to do with immigration.
Kom News #BREAKING: Turkey's Erdogan says capital punishment to be restored in country following constitutional referendum - Kom News #Turkey https://t.co/eefxUNqPcq
He has banned dating shows, in his defence
Perhaps pending a relaunch of (Arranged) Blind Date, where your parents pick, you must have a chaperone at all times and you don't get to see the lady you are dating until after marriage.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc - I do expect powers will be devolved as long as there is goodwill - the whole process will take many years to evolve but I cannot see Nicola's referendum taking place before 2021. I am interested to know if you agree that Nicola has jumped the gun and would have been prudent to wait at least until the end of Brexit talks and then demand the referendum
Morning G, They will never devolve any of the meaningful powers that can make a difference, it is all
G, no problem supporting the union , my gripe is that, that union is no longer there. Westminster rule the roost and have done so badly for many years now and they seem determined to wreck the union. It is only a matter of time as more and more people realise they are treated as a colony and not a partner.
I am more optimistic about the future and do believe that further powers will be devolved to Scotland - indeed in time the UK could become more of a federal state but it follows that an English Parliament would be part of the process. This of course will take years but let's hope that sense will prevail and a solution will become apparent for everyone that does not include separation
G, I wished I could believe your optimism was likely to ever be reality, deeds point to another conclusion, treating Scotland as if it was a pet dog is not pointing to a fair union for the future.
GIN, he will spout utter crap just as he has always done , he was always useless. Him and his party voted against everything the idiot says should now happen. How many times do you listen to a lying toerag.
You have a point Malc... But the world has changed since 23rd June so I'm giving Gord the benefit of the doubt and hoping he is genuine about trying to seize a new post Brexit settlement for the UK.
Although I was never a fan personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
Thinking about what happens after 2019 is all well and good, but it's what happens before then that really matters. The path of least resistance is increasingly pointing towards Scottish independence.
Well my position on that is as it always has been. If Scotland wants to leave the the Union then I wish them farewell and all the best as they forge their new future.
What remains of the former UK can still move forwards into a federal system post Brexit though. Why not?
A federal system for Northumbria, Wessex and Mercia?
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
Brown was shouting "British Jobs For British Workers" in September 2007.
Immigration was already having an effect upon working class Labour supporters before the recession.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc,
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
I note that within Browns interesting speech on a federal UK he has nothing to say on an English Parliament however.
If we are going to go truly federal after Brexit it's only fair the English are given their own Parliament.
He also has nothing to say on HoL reform which must surely be part of any federal solution.
So it's typical Brown really... Thinking about the Scot's but nothing else to say about the other regions.
But I have to give Gord credit. At least he is facing up to the reality the UK is now in... Unlike Blair, Major, Heseltine and the rest of the establishment who still seem to be completely denial about Brexit and what comes afterwards.
I hold no brief for Brown, but perhaps he feels it's up to English politicians to make their own case. How much of a hearing are English voters likely to give him?
To be fair, probably not much of one. He's a busted flush South of the border. I think England suffers from a general apathy about English Nationalism. It's been uncool to be English for quite a while, and the flag is often sneered at for being racist and offensive to minorities after being appropriated by the far right. We need to reclaim that, and try and make England relevant again. I appreciate that England is the biggest part of the Union and dominant in its power at Westminster, but it is really a timid beast.
TFS , no more than he is a busted flush in Scotland, why they dig that cretin out of his coffin every couple of years to spout garbage beggars belief.
Mr. Malmesbury, I occasionally read snippets of the Time Traveller's Guide to Elizabethan England, and just the other day was perusing the religion chapter. A more puritanical version of the Anglican church (banning more symbols and the like) was only defeated by a single vote.
Of course, this was a more backward country (for most people) in the 16th century.
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
Morning Malc - I do expect powers will be devolved as long as there is goodwill - the whole process will take many years to evolve but I cannot see Nicola's referendum taking place before 2021. I am interested to know if you agree that Nicola has jumped the gun and would have been prudent to wait at least until the end of Brexit talks and then demand the referendum
Morning G, They will never devolve any of the meaningful powers that can make a difference, it is all
G, no problem supporting the union , my gripe is that, that union is no longer there. Westminster rule the roost and have done so badly for many years now and they seem determined to wreck the union. It is only a matter of time as more and more people realise they are treated as a colony and not a partner.
I am more optimistic about the future and do believe that further powers will be devolved to Scotland - indeed in time the UK could become more of a federal state but it follows that an English Parliament would be part of the process. This of course will take years but let's hope that sense will prevail and a solution will become apparent for everyone that does not include separation
G, I wished I could believe your optimism was likely to ever be reality, deeds point to another conclusion, treating Scotland as if it was a pet dog is not pointing to a fair union for the future.
The response to these amazing times will need compromise but I do believe the PM should be allowed to negotiate with the EU and her efforts need to be judged once a deal is reached and how good that is for Scotland. It does not help anyone for Nicola to start an Independence campaign now when she should have called it following the negotiations
And many more powers for Wales and (if they wish to remain part of the former UK) Northern Ireland as well. Not to mention more powers for the Capital.
And while I wouldn't go for devolved Parliaments for West Mercia, Northumbria, etc. I see no reason why the regions of England and Wales shouldn't also have more power handed down to them.
We're taking back control and part of that should be giving the people as much empowerment as possible.
Mr. Malmesbury, I occasionally read snippets of the Time Traveller's Guide to Elizabethan England, and just the other day was perusing the religion chapter. A more puritanical version of the Anglican church (banning more symbols and the like) was only defeated by a single vote.
Of course, this was a more backward country (for most people) in the 16th century.
I see no reason to import foreign hysterical, murderous religious bigotry into this country - we have plenty of traditional, British, hysterical, murderous religious bigotry to be getting on with.
British Religious Bigotry for British Religious Bigots!
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He has banned dating shows, in his defence
Perhaps pending a relaunch of (Arranged) Blind Date, where your parents pick, you must have a chaperone at all times and you don't get to see the lady you are dating until after marriage.
After which no one else is ever allowed to see her again!
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
The union, for a vast majority of its history, has survived with Scotland being represented in Westminster only, and it has always been able to be out voted by 'England'. Except England is not represented in Westminster, constituencies are, and they all have equal weight and say.
To say Scotland is being treated like a colony is ridiculous. It has much greater autonomy and control than any area of England.
Westminster is the English parliament, whatever England wants it can vote and get it. Scotland has to beg for anything it would like and nowadays we get put in our place like a pet dog. If you think that is good for Scotland you need to take a look at yourself and get a backbone. It is no longer a union , we are a colony.
'England' does not collectively vote for anything. I elect an MP to represent Gateshead. We have just as much of a vote as Glasgow North.
Ireland's vote is only technically needed to extend negotiations. Approval of the deal is subject to QMV.
The UK government's current position is that this question can be magicked away with technology. Will that stand up to reality?
Yes it is subject to QMV - but if Ireland won't sign a deal then it would have to leave the EU.
It increases the cost of failure for the EU - another factor encouraging them to act rationally in negotiations
Playing brinkmanship over issues like this would be the surest way to ensure the UK's territorial integrity is called into question.
That's why we won't play the card. Everyone knows it exists, that's all that matters
You've really never done much negotiating, have you?
No doubt you will be an expert, all that ordering about of footmen and butlers with your silver spoon honed your skills, add a dash of pomposity and hey voila.
Wouldn't pretend to be an expert. But big companies hire me to negotiate on their behalf. Given that I'm not cheap (I don't get out of bed for less than $1 million) I guess they think I add value.
Arrogance and deriding other people does not make me think you would be any good. Keep waving that silver spoon. Even Trump can make millions when he is handed Daddy's money to start off.
There are 2 or 3 posters on PB who would be better off on Facebook bragging about how much they earn, what brilliant hotels they staying in and how much they have just spent on a bottle of wine. It's only a matter of time before they start posting their holiday pics. I assume they think everyone else is interested either that or it's a not-so-subtle way of saying my opinion is more important because look how successful I am.
*claps*
It's not actually compulsory to post on here, you know.
It does not help anyone for Nicola to start an Independence campaign now when she should have called it following the negotiations
It does not help anyone for Theresa May to start a campaign for the union now when she should have done it before setting out her negotiating strategy for Brexit.
Although I was never a fan personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
Thinking about what happens after 2019 is all well and good, but it's what happens before then that really matters. The path of least resistance is increasingly pointing towards Scottish independence.
Well my position on that is as it always has been. If Scotland wants to leave the the Union then I wish them farewell and all the best as they forge their new future.
What remains of the former UK can still move forwards into a federal system post Brexit though. Why not?
A federal system for Northumbria, Wessex and Mercia?
And Sussex, don't go lumping us in with those awful Wessex people; we were a proud and independent kingdom whilst those oiks were still wearing woad. Better give Kent their own space too, they are an odd lot over there and also smell funny. Probably the peoples of East Anglia won't want to be lumped in with Mercia either or, for that matter, take Essex under their wing (who would?).
I might be in a minority on the Right here who think Gordon Brown is onto something with his comments.
But, I have been saying on here for some months that Holyrood should gain EU powers post Brexit, as has Michael Gove.
Agreed.
I always assumed that Brexit would mean bringing back many powers not just to Westminster but to the devolved parliaments and would essentially bring in a new constitutional settlement for the UK for the 21st century.
Morning GIN, you did not foolishly think hte Tories would let any of the powers get out of Westminsters grasp. Unless it is useless it will not be devolved.
G, no problem supporting the union , my gripe is that, that union is no longer there. Westminster rule the roost and have done so badly for many years now and they seem determined to wreck the union. It is only a matter of time as more and more people realise they are treated as a colony and not a partner.
I am more optimistic about the future and do believe that further powers will be devolved to Scotland - indeed in time the UK could become more of a federal state but it follows that an English Parliament would be part of the process. This of course will take years but let's hope that sense will prevail and a solution will become apparent for everyone that does not include separation
G, I wished I could believe your optimism was likely to ever be reality, deeds point to another conclusion, treating Scotland as if it was a pet dog is not pointing to a fair union for the future.
The response to these amazing times will need compromise but I do believe the PM should be allowed to negotiate with the EU and her efforts need to be judged once a deal is reached and how good that is for Scotland. It does not help anyone for Nicola to start an Independence campaign now when she should have called it following the negotiations
G, it needs to run in parallel and decision once matters are clear on negotiations , forcing it till after Brexit and making things much worse for Scotland is not a viable option.
It does not help anyone for Nicola to start an Independence campaign now when she should have called it following the negotiations
It does not help anyone for Theresa May to start a campaign for the union now when she should have done it before setting out her negotiating strategy for Brexit.
To be honest no matter what Theresa May did, you would say it is wrong
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
I think Brexit won because of Black Wednesday.
Ultimately the UK is too big and too proud a nation to be in the EU but not in the Euro.
Opting out of the euro at its inception bought us 10 years but, ultimately, the UK had a choice of EU + Euro and co-leading both, or to Leave and plough its own path.
The EU simply weren't willing to do the reforms necessary to make a multi-tiered EU work in the long-term. That would have become apparent even if we'd voted to Remain.
Actually I think Black Wednesday is a good nail-in-the-coffin moment, in terms of blocking a certain path to the UK's total economic integration with Europe it thereby sealed off the possibility of political integration. And eventually half-in half-out becomes unsustainable.
But I'd even suggest it goes as far as Maastricht. It was clear then that the UK and the other members were tacking a different course. And it was pretty obvious then, wasn't it, that the UK wasn't going to try catching up with the rest later? And that the rest weren't going to wait up, that a single currency was going to require radical integration to work, up to a single chancellery?
Although I was never a fan, personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening or can be somehow reversed, Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
GIN, he will spout utter crap just as he has always done , he was always useless
This is so true. He and Whitehall probably think it was his intervention that won the indyref. But you are right: Brown has never done anything other than spout crap.
However, this is also true of Sturgeon: the whole discourse about Scotland and the EU is lying crap. For those of us who want to keep the Union, the problem is that none of the Unionist parties can respond to Sturgeon's crap with any vision for improving and strengthening the Union. They have zero imagination. Given that England has four times the combined population of the rest of Britain, an English parliament with powers comparable to the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies is obviously not the solution, so all they do is to hint at a possible Devomax if the Scot Nats promise to shut up after they get it. A "chuck the kilted freemasons some money, because we all know what freemasons like best of all" policy. But giving your opponent a nice wedge to stick their crowbar in has never been a way to avoid getting broken up. Never mind kidding yourself that it's a nice small wedge and you said they could have it only if they don't use too much force on their crowbar. While the SNP are selling snake oil, and they are the spoiltest brattiest most annoying bunch of mendacious juvenile bullshitters in Britain, the Unionists haven't a clue how to play their hand, they have no imagination, and they can offer no leadership.
Bad idea. If Scotland leaves the United Kingdom, they'd claim the 'Scotland' bit, however nonsensical that might be. If you want to change the name, call it 'Bank of United Kingdom'.....not that I'd bother.....
Scotland already own part of it you dumpling.
Technically you don't - it's 100% owned by HMT.
But in a negotiated settlement you'd have an argument for a pro rata share of its net asset value. As of 30 September that was £3.4 billion. I wouldn't have thought that £350 million is the most important thing for you to focus on, but each to their own...
No matter how you cut it or try to obfuscate, Scotland owns a share and a share of all the assets held within it. As part of all the other assets of the UK it has a value.
Oh not this nonsense again.
If the UK was being dissolved you may have an argument, but it would not be upon Scotland leaving - the UK would still exist and Scotland would be the only new state. Leaving a country absolutely does not mean that the leaving part is entitled to the country's assets.
Of course if you do insist on going down the line of wanting 8% or whatever of UK assets then you must also take 8% of the liabilities. AGREED?
Yes of course I do not promote welching like some on here re England and the EU. How you get that a "United Kingdom " can still exist when it is no longer "United" beats me but there we are .
Unless Northern Ireland left too it would stay the UK, otherwise it would become England and Wales. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic as a united Ireland it would lose the monarchy, even the SNP have said an independent Scotland would keep the monarchy as it did under the Stuarts (Cromwell excepted)
So it would be England and some other bits and pieces United Kingdom
In population terms Wales and NI are quite close to the total population of Scotland. I'd like the Scots to stay but I suspect like most in England I'm not overly fussed. gordon Brown suggestion today apparently expects newly devolved Scotland to still benefit from Barnett formula funding. Yeah right!
The union, for a vast majority of its history, has survived with Scotland being represented in Westminster only, and it has always been able to be out voted by 'England'. Except England is not represented in Westminster, constituencies are, and they all have equal weight and say.
To say Scotland is being treated like a colony is ridiculous. It has much greater autonomy and control than any area of England.
Westminster is the English parliament, whatever England wants it can vote and get it. Scotland has to beg for anything it would like and nowadays we get put in our place like a pet dog. If you think that is good for Scotland you need to take a look at yourself and get a backbone. It is no longer a union , we are a colony.
'England' does not collectively vote for anything. I elect an MP to represent Gateshead. We have just as much of a vote as Glasgow North.
Your victim complex is very tiring.
You are obviously not willing or able to understand arithmetic, feel free not to reply and save tiring yourself.
Well, we are going the right way about it. We have jettisoned Europe, Scotland's ejection is making good progress, the Irish are on a separate island so no worries there.
The union, for a vast majority of its history, has survived with Scotland being represented in Westminster only, and it has always been able to be out voted by 'England'. Except England is not represented in Westminster, constituencies are, and they all have equal weight and say.
To say Scotland is being treated like a colony is ridiculous. It has much greater autonomy and control than any area of England.
Westminster is the English parliament, whatever England wants it can vote and get it. Scotland has to beg for anything it would like and nowadays we get put in our place like a pet dog. If you think that is good for Scotland you need to take a look at yourself and get a backbone. It is no longer a union , we are a colony.
'England' does not collectively vote for anything. I elect an MP to represent Gateshead. We have just as much of a vote as Glasgow North.
Your victim complex is very tiring.
You are obviously not willing or able to understand arithmetic, feel free not to reply and save tiring yourself.
Scotland is able to out-vote Northumberland. Is Northumberland a colony?
'Imagine there was a referendum which gave you three options for Scotland's future, which one would you choose?
Scotland becoming independent from the UK 34% Scotland remaining part of the UK, but with more devolved powers 30% Scotland remaining part of the UK, with the same devolved powers as it has now 27% Don't know 10%'
But I'd even suggest it goes as far as Maastricht. It was clear then that the UK and the other members were tacking a different course. And it was pretty obvious then, wasn't it, that the UK wasn't going to try catching up with the rest later? And that the rest weren't going to wait up, that a single currency was going to require radical integration to work, up to a single chancellery?
A single chancellery? Even in the USA, every single state raises the majority of its tax revenue independently of central government.
But I'd even suggest it goes as far as Maastricht. It was clear then that the UK and the other members were tacking a different course. And it was pretty obvious then, wasn't it, that the UK wasn't going to try catching up with the rest later? And that the rest weren't going to wait up, that a single currency was going to require radical integration to work, up to a single chancellery?
A single chancellery? Even in the USA, every single state raises the majority of its tax revenue independently of central government.
Well spotted. A typo of the mind. I meant a central chancellery, not necessarily one that ran the majority of tax-and-spend directly. (Although budget approval is an important and distinct issue.)
Well, we are going the right way about it. We have jettisoned Europe, Scotland's ejection is making good progress, the Irish are on a separate island so no worries there.
Now what to do with the Welsh?
Let them go if they want. Or stay. I guess it's down to them. As it is the Scots. Why fight for something that is dying, and not working for the people anymore? Opinions are changing, voters are looking for something different. It won't all work out for the best, but that's humanity, I guess.
'Imagine there was a referendum which gave you three options for Scotland's future, which one would you choose?
Scotland becoming independent from the UK 34% Scotland remaining part of the UK, but with more devolved powers 30% Scotland remaining part of the UK, with the same devolved powers as it has now 27% Don't know 10%'
It does not help anyone for Nicola to start an Independence campaign now when she should have called it following the negotiations
It does not help anyone for Theresa May to start a campaign for the union now when she should have done it before setting out her negotiating strategy for Brexit.
To be honest no matter what Theresa May did, you would say it is wrong
G, I am not that desperate a supporter of independence. If things were done in a fair and equitable manner , as happened many years ago then I would happily stay as it is. That is not the case and the only way I can see for Scotland to get a fair shot is with independence, we will never get it from the Tories.
'Imagine there was a referendum which gave you three options for Scotland's future, which one would you choose?
Scotland becoming independent from the UK 34% Scotland remaining part of the UK, but with more devolved powers 30% Scotland remaining part of the UK, with the same devolved powers as it has now 27% Don't know 10%'
Mrs C, the Scottish situation is due primarily to Labour's cack-handed devolution. The establishment of Holyrood was determined by a Scottish vote, the composition of the current Scottish Parliament by a Scottish election.
It takes an unorthodox and creative application of logic to blame that on the English.
It does not help anyone for Nicola to start an Independence campaign now when she should have called it following the negotiations
It does not help anyone for Theresa May to start a campaign for the union now when she should have done it before setting out her negotiating strategy for Brexit.
To be honest no matter what Theresa May did, you would say it is wrong
G, I am not that desperate a supporter of independence. If things were done in a fair and equitable manner , as happened many years ago then I would happily stay as it is. That is not the case and the only way I can see for Scotland to get a fair shot is wit hindependence, we will never get it from the Tories.
Abolish Holyrood and everything will be fair and equitable.
Gordon Brown suggestion today apparently expects newly devolved Scotland to still benefit from Barnett formula funding. Yeah right!
Something I posted yesterday on same topic was how interesting it is that one of the main reasons being suggested for Scotland not achieving independence, is the 9%ish budget deficit they'd face. Big in Scottish terms but not such a huge deal in UK terms.
If the Conservative and Unionist Party really, really felt like putting the Union first, it would not take a grand realignment of public spending (circa 1% of UK GDP, on the back of an envelope) to subsidise Scotland to a tune that would be equivalent to them facing a 20% budget deficit if they every took the Sindy route. That scale of bribery wouldn't just make the Union more attractive - it would make crashing out of the union almost impossible.
Such largesse could be justified from a patriotic point of view as the cost of preserving the Union. It could be justified from the social point of view, as supporting some of the least well-off, more unhealthy, shortest life-expectancy regions of Britain. And while the scale of such bribery would be tricky, if it were to be prioritised, genuinely affordable.
Is it politically plausible? If May is serious about saving the union, she isn't going to be able to do it by charming the pants off the Scots. Money would do the talking better for her.
I think its important for SO to recognise that Brexit happened because if unlimited immigration allowed in by Blair.
I think Brexit won because of the financial crash and the austerity that resulted from it. That's what made immigration the huge issue that it has become.
I think Brexit won because of Black Wednesday.
Ultimately the UK is too big and too proud a nation to be in the EU but not in the Euro.
Opting out of the euro at its inception bought us 10 years but, ultimately, the UK had a choice of EU + Euro and co-leading both, or to Leave and plough its own path.
The EU simply weren't willing to do the reforms necessary to make a multi-tiered EU work in the long-term. That would have become apparent even if we'd voted to Remain.
Actually I think Black Wednesday is a good nail-in-the-coffin moment, in terms of blocking a certain path to the UK's total economic integration with Europe it thereby sealed off the possibility of political integration. And eventually half-in half-out becomes unsustainable.
But I'd even suggest it goes as far as Maastricht. It was clear then that the UK and the other members were tacking a different course. And it was pretty obvious then, wasn't it, that the UK wasn't going to try catching up with the rest later? And that the rest weren't going to wait up, that a single currency was going to require radical integration to work, up to a single chancellery?
Maastricht was certainly the turning point for me, Mr. Ears. Until then I had been a supporter of the EEC and the UK's membership of it (I voted to stay in 1975). Though I was unhappy with some aspects of the policies we adopted as a result. After Maastricht I became convinced that it was in the UK's best interest (and the EU's) that we leave.
Comments
Of course I’m well aware that the influx of said EE’s has held down wages rates, but if we stop EE immigration where are the people going to come from to do these jobs?
Media actually has more power and influence on the decisions these days than democratically elected politicians. Witness T May's bowing down to pressure from several newspapers over the NI increase, or the way the media have totally destroyed Corbyn and turned "Corbyn cannot win an election" into a national meme.
If I'm not prepared to advocate joining the Euro, I won't be advocating joining the EU.
A fine article Mr Herdson, but then having said most of that already, of course I’d agree.
If Scotland votes to leave then that will be for the Scots to own.
More people = more demand = more jobs.
Less people = less demand = less jobs.
Whether the UK's population is 10mn, 60mn, 70mn, 100mn or 200mn is absolutely inconsequential for the unemployment rate.
The Tories may not wish to devolve powers they get back from the EU to the regions and devolved parliaments but I don't think they'll have much choice in the end.
Of course it'll be an on-going process and the Tories will probably only devolve the minimum legislation they think they can get away with... But the Tories won't be in power at Westminster forever...
My Father in law was a highly successful fisherman who was one of the finest persons I have ever had the priveledge to know. He was proud of his heritage and had many stories about fishing and his exploits. He was pro the Union and was angry about the effect the EU had on the Scottish fishing fleet.
If he had been alive today he would have been saddened at the polarised nature of the debates and most certainly would have been pro SNP, pro Brexit but for the Union.
I believe there are many in Scotland with this view which also is the view of my wife and I.
I hope this explains why I support the Union
and Sunil owes me an apology for the Croke Park massacre
Immigration was already having an effect upon working class Labour supporters before the recession.
If we are going to go truly federal after Brexit it's only fair the English are given their own Parliament.
He also has nothing to say on HoL reform which must surely be part of any federal solution.
So it's typical Brown really... Thinking about the Scot's but nothing else to say about the other regions.
But I have to give Gord credit. At least he is facing up to the reality the UK is now in... Unlike Blair, Major, Heseltine and the rest of the establishment who still seem to be completely denial about Brexit and what comes afterwards.
The EU simply weren't willing to do the reforms necessary to make a multi-tiered EU work in the long-term. That would have become apparent even if we'd voted to Remain.
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To say Scotland is being treated like a colony is ridiculous. It has much greater autonomy and control than any area of England.
Although I was never a fan, personally I am interested in what he has to say. Primarily because unlike most of the establishment who seem intent on sticking their fingers in their ears and trying to pretend Brexit isn't happening or can be somehow reversed, Brown is at least facing up to reality and trying to be constructive about what happens after 2019.
"Bigoted woman" "Closet racists" etc etc
Without all that it is extremely unlikely we would have voted for Brexit. UKIP would never have got an MP or anywhere near 13% of the vote
Your comparison is as flawed as the Roman tactics at the Battle of Arausio.
Miss Plato, not surprising indeed, and very sad.
FILLON François 3635
HAMON Benoît 2039
MACRON Emmanuel 1829
MELENCHON Jean-Luc 805
LASSALLE Jean 708
DUPONT-AIGNAN Nicolas 707
ARTHAUD Nathalie 637
LE PEN Marine 627
ASSELINEAU François 587
POUTOU Philippe 573
CHEMINADE Jacques 528
The following didn't:
YADE Rama 353
JUPPE Alain 313
and several others, all with fewer than 200
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/economicinactivity/timeseries/lf2m/lms
What remains of the former UK can still move forwards into a federal system post Brexit though. Why not?
Some people just don't want to work, or just aren't cut out for it, or prefer to rely upon the welfare state, or are temporarily between jobs etc - it has absolutely nothing at all to do with immigration.
And with that I'm off into the garden.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Documents/act_six_articles.htm
Obviously.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/timeseries/kac3/lms
Of course, this was a more backward country (for most people) in the 16th century.
And while I wouldn't go for devolved Parliaments for West Mercia, Northumbria, etc. I see no reason why the regions of England and Wales shouldn't also have more power handed down to them.
We're taking back control and part of that should be giving the people as much empowerment as possible.
#PowerToThePeople
And with that I really am off.
British Religious Bigotry for British Religious Bigots!
Your victim complex is very tiring.
https://twitter.com/scotlandinunion/status/842680064525459456
But I'd even suggest it goes as far as Maastricht. It was clear then that the UK and the other members were tacking a different course. And it was pretty obvious then, wasn't it, that the UK wasn't going to try catching up with the rest later? And that the rest weren't going to wait up, that a single currency was going to require radical integration to work, up to a single chancellery?
However, this is also true of Sturgeon: the whole discourse about Scotland and the EU is lying crap. For those of us who want to keep the Union, the problem is that none of the Unionist parties can respond to Sturgeon's crap with any vision for improving and strengthening the Union. They have zero imagination. Given that England has four times the combined population of the rest of Britain, an English parliament with powers comparable to the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish assemblies is obviously not the solution, so all they do is to hint at a possible Devomax if the Scot Nats promise to shut up after they get it. A "chuck the kilted freemasons some money, because we all know what freemasons like best of all" policy. But giving your opponent a nice wedge to stick their crowbar in has never been a way to avoid getting broken up. Never mind kidding yourself that it's a nice small wedge and you said they could have it only if they don't use too much force on their crowbar. While the SNP are selling snake oil, and they are the spoiltest brattiest most annoying bunch of mendacious juvenile bullshitters in Britain, the Unionists haven't a clue how to play their hand, they have no imagination, and they can offer no leadership.
Now what to do with the Welsh?
'Imagine there was a referendum which gave you three options for Scotland's future, which one would you choose?
Scotland becoming independent from the UK 34%
Scotland remaining part of the UK, but with more devolved powers 30%
Scotland remaining part of the UK, with the same devolved powers as it has now 27%
Don't know 10%'
https://twitter.com/WhatScotsThink/status/843070570564653057
It takes an unorthodox and creative application of logic to blame that on the English.
If the Conservative and Unionist Party really, really felt like putting the Union first, it would not take a grand realignment of public spending (circa 1% of UK GDP, on the back of an envelope) to subsidise Scotland to a tune that would be equivalent to them facing a 20% budget deficit if they every took the Sindy route. That scale of bribery wouldn't just make the Union more attractive - it would make crashing out of the union almost impossible.
Such largesse could be justified from a patriotic point of view as the cost of preserving the Union. It could be justified from the social point of view, as supporting some of the least well-off, more unhealthy, shortest life-expectancy regions of Britain. And while the scale of such bribery would be tricky, if it were to be prioritised, genuinely affordable.
Is it politically plausible? If May is serious about saving the union, she isn't going to be able to do it by charming the pants off the Scots. Money would do the talking better for her.