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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Maybe a reason why LAB gets poor media coverage is that the Co

SystemSystem Posts: 11,017
edited March 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Maybe a reason why LAB gets poor media coverage is that the Corbyn-appointed PR team is not up to it

This. Every Lab MP should read this & be embarrassed. The Lib Dems do vg rebuttal, quotes and opposition research… pic.twitter.com/Ts9OiXewPY

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,614
    Second! Like Remain & Yes!
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited March 2017
    Second!

    Edit: Third like .... being after Second.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    Heading straight to May's wastepaper bin
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    FPT 2: Comrades, listen not to the neo-Osbornite numerological depravities of the capitalist propagandists!

    Chairman Corbyn's popularity goes from strength to strength. Who has received a standing ovation from Islington South's Manhole Inspection Association? None but he!
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    HYUFD said:

    Just let this sink in. Corbyn trails May by 53% IN LONDON.

    May is clearly more popular than her party in London, Corbyn well behind his
    Impossible, the women's auxiliary palistinian solidarity movement (marxist-leninist) of the Islington Brighton alliance always say how great he is.

    Edit - curse you, MD, it was an obvious joke, but it was my turn!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. kle4, splitter!
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    I doubt it is because they have given up. More like they don't see it as important.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    Corbyn and Co face many challenges and opponents. It may be beyond most, it may even be unfair, for the sake or argument.

    Unfortunately none of that is an adequate defence. Opponents do not owe you a fair shake. Fact is even if he and they are not the problem - although frankly they are the most immediately critical - they do not appear to be capable of addressing whatever is the problem beyond whining about it.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    I'm what way?
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    ‘It is as if the red team has given up’ – nonsense, they’re merely playing the long game....!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    edited March 2017

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
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    14th, like Labour's PR team
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    RestharrowRestharrow Posts: 233
    Milne is one of the few people who thinks the BBC is anti-Labour - possibly a hang-over from the way his old man was bundled out of the top job thirty years ago. For Labour to lose the BBC would be worse than losing Scotland. And just as unthinkable...
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    I wrote last summer that Labour aren't equipped to deal with the white heat of a six week general election campaign, which could mean during the general election campaign Corbyn's ratings could sink even further.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203
    FPT - every time I right a long post a new thread gets posted :neutral:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    We don't have songbirds here in the UK any more anyway, because cats and because the RSPB has narrowed its own remit to the protection of raptors. In the circumstances I can't get very excited about the Cypriots harvesting some of theirs, though their methods do seem a bit harsh. Learning of the existence of the EU Birds Directive is one of those things that make one think Brexit isn't all bad.

    Monksfield:

    You're moving onto a subject you clearly don't know a great deal about, and I do.

    We don't have songbirds because there's hardly any habitat for them. Have you actually looked at what the countryside contains these days? Field after field containing one crop species, be it rye grass, oil seed rape or wheat. None of it much cop for the vast majority of wildlife. Big fields with little cover, good for big efficient machinery but not much cop for most wildlife. Vast use of insecticide, good for prophylactic farming but not much cop for wildlife, whose foodchain is being eradicated.

    Predators will only survive if there is sufficient prey in the landscape. It's density dependence, a fundamental ecological principle. That's probably why predators like kestrels and barn owls have declined. Like songbirds, the countryside is not an especially friendly place for the small mammals they eat. Think about how the countryside has changed from a diverse, intimate landscape to a hugely modified, simplified and still pretty but ecologically denuded one.

    However, yes a few predators have prospered, partly due to less persecution but also because the shooting industry feeds them and on a vast scale. By releasing millions of pheasants every year and providing all the associated feeders and crappy maize margins, this has provided a fabulous source of food for rats, foxes, buzzards, kites and various other omnivorous predators and scavengers. The scale of pheasant releases has increased massively since the 70s as pheasant shoots have become business. I suspect the net negative impact of the shooting industry on wildlife (which has not been quantified) is as devastating as that from agricultural intensification.

    Yeah, cats eat songbirds, but by and large the ones they eat are not the ones that are declining: blackbirds, dunnock, blue tit etc. It's more specialised species that have declined the most.
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    Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608
    Realistically, when is the last point the Labour Party could get rid of Corbyn and still have time to select a replacement before the 2020 GE? Does anybody have definitive view on this?
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    Touché.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    In the interests of balance:

    Matt Zarb-Cousin ‏@mattzarb

    For the past 10 months I've handled 1000s of calls & texts, sometimes between 80-100 a day. Usually responded in 10 mins. Never more than 30

    I'm now reading that Labour's press operation is "unresponsive". This is simply not true for the leader's office. Ask anyone in the lobby

    Marie Le Conte‏ @youngvulgarian

    ok so this has all been wildly blown out of proportions but again, FWIW I never singled out the leader's office, I know you're good
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Animal_pb said:

    Realistically, when is the last point the Labour Party could get rid of Corbyn and still have time to select a replacement before the 2020 GE? Does anybody have definitive view on this?

    Anytime.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203

    Milne is one of the few people who thinks the BBC is anti-Labour - possibly a hang-over from the way his old man was bundled out of the top job thirty years ago. For Labour to lose the BBC would be worse than losing Scotland. And just as unthinkable...

    However you look at it, the BBC has not been pro Labour since Corbyn was elected. And I'm not convinced they were anywhere less than neutral prior to that. It's been a great tactic for the right to wail continually about BBC bias, but when you actually dig into the matter, the BBC tends to be supportive of Government whichever Party is in power. Point me in the direction of a published paper suggesting the BBC had a bias against the ruling party.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,603
    Animal_pb said:

    Realistically, when is the last point the Labour Party could get rid of Corbyn and still have time to select a replacement before the 2020 GE? Does anybody have definitive view on this?

    In theory we could have aleadership election summer 2019 with the new leader announced at autumn conference. 7 months before the GE wouldn't give them any chance to establish themselves, so likely to be too late to turn things around.

    I would say that conference 2018 is the last sensible time to get a new leader. In a year and a half the public will get to know them and be able to make up their minds if he/she is a PM in waiting.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    And what business is it of yours ? She is pursuing a manifesto commitment. You may not like it - but that's tough.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    IIRC TMay didn't want parly involved at all - but the high court put paid to that..
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    RestharrowRestharrow Posts: 233

    Milne is one of the few people who thinks the BBC is anti-Labour - possibly a hang-over from the way his old man was bundled out of the top job thirty years ago. For Labour to lose the BBC would be worse than losing Scotland. And just as unthinkable...

    However you look at it, the BBC has not been pro Labour since Corbyn was elected. And I'm not convinced they were anywhere less than neutral prior to that. It's been a great tactic for the right to wail continually about BBC bias, but when you actually dig into the matter, the BBC tends to be supportive of Government whichever Party is in power. Point me in the direction of a published paper suggesting the BBC had a bias against the ruling party.
    Obviously not a peer-reviewed academic journal, but...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11338695/Ed-Miliband-said-he-wanted-to-weaponise-NHS-in-secret-meeting-with-BBC-executives.html

    My point was that it takes some effort to develop a sympathetic relationship with the BBC which Miliband's team managed to do whereas Corbyn's team have apparently failed. When did Corbyn last meet with BBC execs to discuss his plans to "weaponise" anything?
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    Touché.
    antiTouché. The UK people deemed brexit more important than any GE since 1992, plus TMay has little choice about how much attention she gives to brexit, or when, since she is now wired to one of those bombs in films which is now flashing T minus 728 days in big red letters. So I don't really see the parallel.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    FPT

    Reading across Labour's 2010 and 2015 results, combined with a spread of regional polls or subsamples they will be:

    Scotland: Tory support levels 1997-2015
    Wales: lose one in ten of 2015 voters
    North: lose one in four of 2015 voters
    Midlands: lose one in four of 2015 voters
    London: revert to 2010 result
    South and East: already hollowed to core at around 16-18%
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited March 2017
    There is no Labour line on anything anymore. It's not just the time it takes. Look what happened when they asked Corbyn about Labour's view on Scottish independence.

    Their only Scottish MP was incandescent as was Kesia Dugdale. If the leadership say the first thing that comes into their heads they can't really be described as a party. It wasn't Milne who did it but Corbyn

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    FernandoFernando Posts: 145

    In the interests of balance:

    Matt Zarb-Cousin ‏@mattzarb

    For the past 10 months I've handled 1000s of calls & texts, sometimes between 80-100 a day. Usually responded in 10 mins. Never more than 30

    I'm now reading that Labour's press operation is "unresponsive". This is simply not true for the leader's office. Ask anyone in the lobby

    Marie Le Conte‏ @youngvulgarian

    ok so this has all been wildly blown out of proportions but again, FWIW I never singled out the leader's office, I know you're good

    Perhaps Marie Le Conte isn't asking the right press operation? Perhaps she's not very good at her job. Why keep going back to a source you know does not deliver?
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,203

    Milne is one of the few people who thinks the BBC is anti-Labour - possibly a hang-over from the way his old man was bundled out of the top job thirty years ago. For Labour to lose the BBC would be worse than losing Scotland. And just as unthinkable...

    However you look at it, the BBC has not been pro Labour since Corbyn was elected. And I'm not convinced they were anywhere less than neutral prior to that. It's been a great tactic for the right to wail continually about BBC bias, but when you actually dig into the matter, the BBC tends to be supportive of Government whichever Party is in power. Point me in the direction of a published paper suggesting the BBC had a bias against the ruling party.
    Obviously not a peer-reviewed academic journal, but...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11338695/Ed-Miliband-said-he-wanted-to-weaponise-NHS-in-secret-meeting-with-BBC-executives.html

    My point was that it takes some effort to develop a sympathetic relationship with the BBC which Miliband's team managed to do whereas Corbyn's team have apparently failed. When did Corbyn last meet with BBC execs to discuss his plans to "weaponise" anything?
    You could argue that the fact the meeting leaked indicates some there had Tory sympathies ;). In truth, I suspect all parties seek out the media at key times to try and ensure their policies and strategies are understood and reported accurately. Miliband got caught out in respect of using emotive language but it's hardly evidence of systematic bias.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited March 2017
    Off Topic. Has this been discussed on PB yet? Apparently the German Foreign Minister has said that:

    "Two percent would mean military expenses of some 70 billion euros. I don't know any German politician who would claim that is reachable nor desirable," Germany's Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said at the first NATO meeting attended by U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson."

    This does not bode well for the EU-US relationship.

    As an aside, perhaps the UK should respond to the EU "I don't know any British politician who would claim that 60 billion pounds divorce settlement is either reachable nor desirable".

    Link: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-idUSKBN1720WV
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,712
    Could the Labour party's tardiness have anything to do with having to clear any statements with the Great Leader?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
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    Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608

    Animal_pb said:

    Realistically, when is the last point the Labour Party could get rid of Corbyn and still have time to select a replacement before the 2020 GE? Does anybody have definitive view on this?

    In theory we could have aleadership election summer 2019 with the new leader announced at autumn conference. 7 months before the GE wouldn't give them any chance to establish themselves, so likely to be too late to turn things around.

    I would say that conference 2018 is the last sensible time to get a new leader. In a year and a half the public will get to know them and be able to make up their minds if he/she is a PM in waiting.
    Thanks. Do you think that's a view shared by the PLP (or "hard right", as Mr Palmer would describe them)?
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited March 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Corbyn is on -2.3 in this model currently, implying around a 6ish% swing back to the Tories. But results are notably worse post Brexit.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    MTimT said:

    Off Topic. Has this been discussed on PB yet? Apparently the German Foreign Minister has said that:

    "Two percent would mean military expenses of some 70 billion euros. I don't know any German politician who would claim that is reachable nor desirable," Germany's Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel said at the first NATO meeting attended by U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson."

    This does not bode well for the EU-US relationship.

    As an aside, perhaps the UK should respond to the EU "I don't know any British politician who would claim that 60 billion pounds divorce settlement is either reachable nor desirable".

    Link: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato-idUSKBN1720WV

    My feeling is that if the UK said it would cut military spending by a third and spend the saving on the NHS it would be at least as popular as 'Boris's barmy bus side' and what's more it would be believed
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited March 2017
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Even if swingback is a thing it may not be the thing we think it is. Frinstance if you restated the rule as being that it benefits the party which is behind in the polls at the midpoint of the parliament, that might fit the history equally well and would have different implications.

    Edit to add: in fact if my model were correct, it would turn out to be just boring old mean reversion. Which we know to be a thing.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    Touché.
    antiTouché. The UK people deemed brexit more important than any GE since 1992, plus TMay has little choice about how much attention she gives to brexit, or when, since she is now wired to one of those bombs in films which is now flashing T minus 728 days in big red letters. So I don't really see the parallel.
    The Slovenian film "No Mans Land' (Not the Harold Pinter). The parallels are more chilling than anyone could imagine
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Sorry, my earlier statement was incorrect. There has been a 2.3% swing Con -> Lab with by-election comparing to General Election results, which would mean a ~ 2% Lab -> Con swing for a GE upcoming.
    However the Tories have outperformed this markedly post-Brexit.
    I'm only considering Lab/Tory for this model, and have decided to exclude Scotland as it is such a different beast now (NI excluded too of course, not Wales)
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    Touché.
    antiTouché. The UK people deemed brexit more important than any GE since 1992, plus TMay has little choice about how much attention she gives to brexit, or when, since she is now wired to one of those bombs in films which is now flashing T minus 728 days in big red letters. So I don't really see the parallel.
    The Slovenian film "No Mans Land' (Not the Harold Pinter). The parallels are more chilling than anyone could imagine
    There's a whole series of lesbian porno by that title too, so I'm told.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    Touché.
    antiTouché. The UK people deemed brexit more important than any GE since 1992, plus TMay has little choice about how much attention she gives to brexit, or when, since she is now wired to one of those bombs in films which is now flashing T minus 728 days in big red letters. So I don't really see the parallel.
    The Slovenian film "No Mans Land' (Not the Harold Pinter). The parallels are more chilling than anyone could imagine
    There's a whole series of lesbian porno by that title too, so I'm told.
    The thing about PB whatever dark places the subject takes you someone has always done the research!
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    What the heck does the bivariate data set of BE/GE election results have to do with any greater philosophical point, the US economy or the NFL ?!
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited March 2017

    Milne is one of the few people who thinks the BBC is anti-Labour - possibly a hang-over from the way his old man was bundled out of the top job thirty years ago. For Labour to lose the BBC would be worse than losing Scotland. And just as unthinkable...

    However you look at it, the BBC has not been pro Labour since Corbyn was elected. And I'm not convinced they were anywhere less than neutral prior to that. It's been a great tactic for the right to wail continually about BBC bias, but when you actually dig into the matter, the BBC tends to be supportive of Government whichever Party is in power. Point me in the direction of a published paper suggesting the BBC had a bias against the ruling party.
    Obviously not a peer-reviewed academic journal, but...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/11338695/Ed-Miliband-said-he-wanted-to-weaponise-NHS-in-secret-meeting-with-BBC-executives.html

    My point was that it takes some effort to develop a sympathetic relationship with the BBC which Miliband's team managed to do whereas Corbyn's team have apparently failed. When did Corbyn last meet with BBC execs to discuss his plans to "weaponise" anything?
    The only media Team Jezza think are friendly are the likes of the Morning Star and PressTV, even the Guardian are out to get him (according to Jezza himself).
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,603
    Animal_pb said:

    Animal_pb said:

    Realistically, when is the last point the Labour Party could get rid of Corbyn and still have time to select a replacement before the 2020 GE? Does anybody have definitive view on this?

    In theory we could have aleadership election summer 2019 with the new leader announced at autumn conference. 7 months before the GE wouldn't give them any chance to establish themselves, so likely to be too late to turn things around.

    I would say that conference 2018 is the last sensible time to get a new leader. In a year and a half the public will get to know them and be able to make up their minds if he/she is a PM in waiting.
    Thanks. Do you think that's a view shared by the PLP (or "hard right", as Mr Palmer would describe them)?
    I think that has to be the basis for any further challenge this side of the GE. Wait for a thumping in the 2018 locals (where we stand to lose plenty of seats) and then go for it.
  • Options
    Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608
    Roger said:

    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    Touché.
    antiTouché. The UK people deemed brexit more important than any GE since 1992, plus TMay has little choice about how much attention she gives to brexit, or when, since she is now wired to one of those bombs in films which is now flashing T minus 728 days in big red letters. So I don't really see the parallel.
    The Slovenian film "No Mans Land' (Not the Harold Pinter). The parallels are more chilling than anyone could imagine
    There's a whole series of lesbian porno by that title too, so I'm told.
    The thing about PB whatever dark places the subject takes you someone has always done the research!
    ....usually SeanT. In person.
  • Options
    JamesMJamesM Posts: 221
    edited March 2017
    FPT:

    On the issue of Brexit being protected by referendum; isn't the law that the coalition government brought in to require a referendum if substantial powers go to the EU still relevant? I guess EEA wouldn't be the EU, but it would likely be substantial powers.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    What the heck does the bivariate data set of BE/GE election results have to do with any greater philosophical point, the US economy or the NFL ?!
    It has to do with epistemology. Data is not information. Statistical manipulation of data can give information, but not always.

    Hence the reference to the NFL and US economy, or more pertinently the direction of its stock market.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
    The US economy and superbowl results should with no prior or post information be independent of each other.

    By-elections and General Elections and local elections have the common factor of PEOPLE GOING OUT TO FECKING VOTE. I do not see what a model that is clearly coincidence has to do with a voting model based off of actual voting.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,965
    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Given a set of issues that the SNP seem unable to fix (teacher recruitment, education, health care) talking about something else that gets news coverage avoids dealing with the actual issues.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    What the heck does the bivariate data set of BE/GE election results have to do with any greater philosophical point, the US economy or the NFL ?!
    It has to do with epistemology. Data is not information. Statistical manipulation of data can give information, but not always.

    Hence the reference to the NFL and US economy, or more pertinently the direction of its stock market.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
    A bit of common sense tells that the US economy and superbowl results are almost certainly independent variables. I guess the GDP might go up a millionth of a % if the Cowboys win compared to say the Buccaneers as the Cowboys are more popular, but that is about it.

    BEs/GEs/LEs OTOH should logically not be independent.
  • Options
    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Germany promised Nato to increase in military spending in 2014 - continued to decrease spending in 2015.

    Objecting to a NATO exercise in Poland (which takes place every two years) the German President Steinmeier says

    "What we shouldn't do now is inflame the situation further through sabre-rattling and warmongering,"

    "We are well-advised to not create pretexts to renew an old confrontation," he said, adding that it would be "fatal to search only for military solutions and a policy of deterrence.

    Steinmeier has called for America to withdraw troops from Europe.

    Merkel has said that soft power (the power of the money lender) should be included in any estimate of military expenditure.

    So it looks as though Germany has learnt one lesson from the last war, but not the lesson learnt by the other countries.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:



    A bit of common sense tells that the US economy and superbowl results are almost certainly independent variables. I guess the GDP might go up a millionth of a % if the Cowboys win compared to say the Buccaneers as the Cowboys are more popular, but that is about it.

    BEs/GEs/LEs OTOH should logically not be independent.

    But that they should not logically be independent is not in an of itself proof that they are, and a statistical analysis cannot provide that proof.

    Another case that you might find more palatable. Professor Doll's initial data showed that coffee drinking was very highly correlated with lung cancer. The fact is that coffee drinking and smoking were also highly correlated. Coffee drinking does not cause lung cancer. We know the true causal linkages not from the statistics, but from the biology, even if statistics pointed us where to look.

    PS When writing scientific papers to journals, do you rely on the commonsense argument?
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Roger said:

    GeoffM said:

    Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    daodao said:

    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    Isn't TMay doing exactly the same?
    Touché.
    antiTouché. The UK people deemed brexit more important than any GE since 1992, plus TMay has little choice about how much attention she gives to brexit, or when, since she is now wired to one of those bombs in films which is now flashing T minus 728 days in big red letters. So I don't really see the parallel.
    The Slovenian film "No Mans Land' (Not the Harold Pinter). The parallels are more chilling than anyone could imagine
    There's a whole series of lesbian porno by that title too, so I'm told.
    The thing about PB whatever dark places the subject takes you someone has always done the research!
    But we should be grateful. Children and animals were not involved!
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
    The US economy and superbowl results should with no prior or post information be independent of each other.

    By-elections and General Elections and local elections have the common factor of PEOPLE GOING OUT TO FECKING VOTE. I do not see what a model that is clearly coincidence has to do with a voting model based off of actual voting.
    Frankly, for a man of some skill in the area, I am surprised that you are having difficulty grasping the concept I am offering as a mere caution to overconfidence in statistical findings.

    Let's leave it at that.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
    Isn't 80% correlation not a particularly unlikely outcome for that indicator anyway, the stock market goes up more often than it goes down, and NFC teams are better.
  • Options
    Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    Quotes from Labour or the Lib Dems will be equally useless. They are both parts of the same problem.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    PAW said:

    Germany promised Nato to increase in military spending in 2014 - continued to decrease spending in 2015.

    Objecting to a NATO exercise in Poland (which takes place every two years) the German President Steinmeier says

    "What we shouldn't do now is inflame the situation further through sabre-rattling and warmongering,"

    "We are well-advised to not create pretexts to renew an old confrontation," he said, adding that it would be "fatal to search only for military solutions and a policy of deterrence.

    Steinmeier has called for America to withdraw troops from Europe.

    Merkel has said that soft power (the power of the money lender) should be included in any estimate of military expenditure.

    So it looks as though Germany has learnt one lesson from the last war, but not the lesson learnt by the other countries.

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    I also think that when Trump delivers an 'invoice' to Germany, then that is likely to have the opposite effect of that desired. Given how unpopular Donald Trump is in Germany, being seen to 'fold' to him would have negative effects on the government's popularity.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Awb683 said:

    Quotes from Labour or the Lib Dems will be equally useless. They are both parts of the same problem.

    George Osborne, is that you?
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Awb683 said:

    Quotes from Labour or the Lib Dems will be equally useless. They are both parts of the same problem.

    George Osborne, is that you?
    I though he was disguised as @TSE ?

  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
    The US economy and superbowl results should with no prior or post information be independent of each other.

    By-elections and General Elections and local elections have the common factor of PEOPLE GOING OUT TO FECKING VOTE. I do not see what a model that is clearly coincidence has to do with a voting model based off of actual voting.
    Frankly, for a man of some skill in the area, I am surprised that you are having difficulty grasping the concept I am offering as a mere caution to overconfidence in statistical findings.

    Let's leave it at that.
    The six most expensive words in political betting "This time it will be different"
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    MTimT said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT: Mr. Pulpstar, your jest does raise an interesting question. Obviously we have the enormous issue of the EU, but will we otherwise see a swing back to the governing party? Likewise, has the stigma of voting Conservative disappeared, which might reduce/abolish the shy Conservative factor?

    There is almost always(*) a 'swingback' to the governing party from an aggregate of by-elections or local results

    (*) Checked back to 1966-70 government thus far.

    Kind of why Copeland was important. It means Labour could lose more than Copeland at the GE. Alot more.
    Or it means we are in a suis generis situation and the old observations won't hold. Remember, past performance is no guarantee of future performance.

    Generating theories based on past data is no more than storytelling. For each set of data, multiple stories, each internally consistent, can be told. Swingback is disprovable, with the first instance it does not hold good. But each time swing back happens, all it does in confirm our bias for this story - it proves nothing.
    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/847799401066180609
    So you are confident that the NFL and the US economy have a causal link?
    Umm which bivariate data set are you alluding to ?
    Data is not information
    Information is not knowledge
    Knowledge is not wisdom.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_indicator
    Isn't 80% correlation not a particularly unlikely outcome for that indicator anyway, the stock market goes up more often than it goes down, and NFC teams are better.
    That was not my point. Anyways, must do some real work.
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    rcs1000 said:

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    Am I alone in finding it disturbing how quickly an arbitrary spending target starts being religiously parroted as a good thing no matter what?

    The bang matters more than the buck, in defence as in every other area of public spending.
  • Options
    JSpringJSpring Posts: 96
    edited March 2017
    "Until this is sorted out let’s hear no complaints from Corbyn cultists about the way their man is treated."

    But we will hear them. And then reply on Twitter to them. And then re-tweet them. And then start a new PB thread which mentions them. And then have a long discussion about them in the comments section of the said thread.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Freggles said:

    So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?


    Project Fume.

    The EU are really annoyed with us.

  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    rcs1000 said:

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    Am I alone in finding it disturbing how quickly an arbitrary spending target starts being religiously parroted as a good thing no matter what?

    The bang matters more than the buck, in defence as in every other area of public spending.
    My point on this always has been who decided that 2% was the correct figure. Why not 2.5% or 1.543%. Seems like you put a wet finger up and see how it goes.

    Another point: what if one country's 1.2% was better spent than some other country's 2%. A few billions of overspend on big toys. Is that a good spend or a bad spend ?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    rcs1000 said:

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    Am I alone in finding it disturbing how quickly an arbitrary spending target starts being religiously parroted as a good thing no matter what?

    The bang matters more than the buck, in defence as in every other area of public spending.
    Targets are often arbitrary. But if it's a commitment then people should meet it, or its no commitment at all. We only meet it thanks to accounting tricks. I thought the Germans believed in meeting commitments and not seeking to benefit from a system without paying fully in?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Options
    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    I'm coming round to the Casino Royale view of Brexit. It's possible the EU is going to overplay its hand (which is fairly stupid, given that their hand is already strong), they will antagonise us too much, and we will crash out, with no deal.

    Brace position.

    Why do you think that is not the plan ? Are you still under the illusion that we are very important ?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    rcs1000 said:

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    Am I alone in finding it disturbing how quickly an arbitrary spending target starts being religiously parroted as a good thing no matter what?

    The bang matters more than the buck, in defence as in every other area of public spending.
    Hmm An interesting thought.
    Perhaps NATO should set out an interchangeable level of

    {Nuclear weaponry/land capability/air capability/military intelligence assets/sea capability} per billion dollars of US GDP per economy ?

    A nation can mix as it sees fit, but must provide assets in total in relation to its GDP.

    How would Britain fare on that front ?
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Freggles said:

    So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?


    Project Fume.

    The EU are really annoyed with us.

    B-b-b-but we import German cars! Don't they know who we are?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    rcs1000 said:

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    Am I alone in finding it disturbing how quickly an arbitrary spending target starts being religiously parroted as a good thing no matter what?

    The bang matters more than the buck, in defence as in every other area of public spending.
    It's not an arbitrary spending target it is a commitment that was made.
  • Options
    MTimT said:


    PS When writing scientific papers to journals, do you rely on the commonsense argument?

    To an extent people do. It's pretty common to say something like... this is the most parsimonious explanation for my data, which is in line with X theory... it would also fit with Y theory, but Y theory has some other drawbacks... it runs contrary to Z theory, which would need to be amended in some way to accommodate these findings. Theory X would predict such-and-such in future.

    In order to push back on Pulpstar, you need to be saying that the mechanism he proposes for "swing back" is flawed or deficient in some demonstrable way, and that you have a better explanation of the pattern of results (e.g. as RCS1000 has proposed for your Superbowl figures).
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    On topic: Maybe a reason that Labour gets poor coverage is not that they are failing to get their message out but because they are succeeding in getting their message out.
    They are toxic for a reason.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    surbiton said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    Am I alone in finding it disturbing how quickly an arbitrary spending target starts being religiously parroted as a good thing no matter what?

    The bang matters more than the buck, in defence as in every other area of public spending.
    My point on this always has been who decided that 2% was the correct figure. Why not 2.5% or 1.543%. Seems like you put a wet finger up and see how it goes.

    Another point: what if one country's 1.2% was better spent than some other country's 2%. A few billions of overspend on big toys. Is that a good spend or a bad spend ?
    It's a fair point, although they signed up to the figure.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited March 2017
    Worth a five minute read once the obvious parts are bypassed:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/brexit-50-things-ireland-needs-to-know-1.3030493
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    SeanT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Didn't German military spending go from 1.18% of GDP in 2014 to 1.20% in 2015, so it increased albeit only marginally.

    Germany - and others - need to keep their NATO commitments. But I think it is also deeply unrealistic to expect spending to increase at more than a 5-7% real rate. That means it'll take a decade or so to get up to the 2% level.

    Am I alone in finding it disturbing how quickly an arbitrary spending target starts being religiously parroted as a good thing no matter what?

    The bang matters more than the buck, in defence as in every other area of public spending.
    It's not whether it's good or bad, it's simply that the Germans solemnly agreed to do this, and haven't got anywhere near it, ever since
    Germany is a free rider nation. On defence. On currency / exchange rate. This might come back to haunt them.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    edited March 2017
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm coming round to the Casino Royale view of Brexit. It's possible the EU is going to overplay its hand (which is fairly stupid, given that their hand is already strong), they will antagonise us too much, and we will crash out, with no deal.

    Brace position.

    Why do you think that is not the plan ? Are you still under the illusion that we are very important ?
    Whether we are or not is hardly the point. It's not in their interests to treat us like shit anymore than we should treat them like shit. Even if that would hit us more, it doesn't maximise their interests to be outright antagonistic.
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Hello, Morris. Is it sunny in Yorkshire as in Teesside?
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Good afternoon Mr Dancer.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,045
    SeanT said:

    I'm coming round to the Casino Royale view of Brexit. It's possible the EU is going to overplay its hand (which is fairly stupid, given that their hand is already strong), they will antagonise us too much, and we will crash out, with no deal.

    Brace position.

    Yeah, but what will your position be by this evening?
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    SeanT said:

    I'm coming round to the Casino Royale view of Brexit. It's possible the EU is going to overplay its hand (which is fairly stupid, given that their hand is already strong), they will antagonise us too much, and we will crash out, with no deal.

    Brace position.

    Yeah, but what will your position be by this evening?
    That's a level of detail I think we can do without. :)
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    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Freggles said:

    So has the Gibraltar story been dismissed as Project Fear?

    Project Fume.

    The EU are really annoyed with us.

    Is there something I'm not getting? I thought the whole Gibraltar thing was all about whether or not the UK's exit deal applied to Gibraltar or not, and not whether or not the agreement could proceed?

    If so, it's a non-issue. Any sabre-rattling by Spain can be dealt with easily in one of two ways, according to the taste of the Gibraltarian people:

    1. Offer them a vote on joining the UK. If Gibraltar decides to become a constituent part of the UK rather than an overseas territory, then the exit deal automatically applies to it. And why not? France already has several remote overseas departments that count as an integral part of the country.
    2. If Gibraltar doesn't want to join the UK, then throw so much money at it that any problems caused by Spain are more than compensated for. There are only about thirty thousand people there. How expensive can it be?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    SeanT said:

    I'm coming round to the Casino Royale view of Brexit. It's possible the EU is going to overplay its hand (which is fairly stupid, given that their hand is already strong), they will antagonise us too much, and we will crash out, with no deal.

    Brace position.

    Yeah, but what will your position be by this evening?
    Supine?
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm coming round to the Casino Royale view of Brexit. It's possible the EU is going to overplay its hand (which is fairly stupid, given that their hand is already strong), they will antagonise us too much, and we will crash out, with no deal.

    Brace position.

    Why do you think that is not the plan ? Are you still under the illusion that we are very important ?
    It's the rank hypocrisy that gets me.

    We broach security co-operation and it's a "threat" that is "bullying" and "antagonistic".

    They broach part of our country and it's "a negotiating position" that "might be necessary to get the best deal".

    Security co-operation and Gibraltar are staying, Merkel and May are grown ups.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,871
    TGOHF said:

    So basically Nicola's letter confirms she intends to waste more Holyrood time blethering on about Indy instead of matters the Scottish people deem more important ?

    Brave.

    keep bowing and scraping toom
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    isamisam Posts: 40,916
    Maybe the Tories would've been better off letting Farage win Thanet South?

    https://twitter.com/standardnews/status/847814493279313920
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Freggles, well, it's sunny, but it's difficult to say how it compares to Teesside. Rather a nice day.

    Mr. Rabbit, well, quite.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-Kingdom/Military

    Is interesting.

    But some of the stats are misleading. For example it states we have 42 aircraft carriers, but an inspection of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_by_country reveals we have 40 decommissioned and 2 under construction which makes errm zero.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    On topic:

    The matter is simple to explain:

    - The Shadow Cabinet have indeed given up politics because they have more important internal battles to fight.

    - The PLP have given up politics because they have no support from their leadership.

    For the time being, there is no Labour Party so who needs media coverage?
This discussion has been closed.