Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Richard Nabavi on Emmanuel Macron’s Cohabitation Conundrum

SystemSystem Posts: 11,016
edited April 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Richard Nabavi on Emmanuel Macron’s Cohabitation Conundrum

If the polls are to be believed, in a few weeks’ time Emmanuel Macron will be president of France, having easily seen off Marine Le Pen in the second round of voting. Pundits will opine that populism has been defeated, and chaos averted. This will be a premature verdict.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,874
    1st!
  • Options
    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,874
    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Indeed. The Tories may lose a handful of seats to the LDs in SW London, but will be looking to gain a few dozen from Labour in the West Midlands.

    F1: P3 to go ahead on time in 10 mins, after yesterday's Shanghai smog shambles.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,149
    Dunno, if you don't have your own party then your relationship with the parliamentary majority is potentially less zero-sum than if your guys are after their jobs.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,260
    Except that there are many more Tory-voting remainers than there are Brexit-obsessed LibDems.

    It will also be interesting to see whether the apparent shift in voters is also reflected amongst the business community, which could deliver valuable financial help to the LibDems, who have always been the poor relations when it comes to financial backers?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,260
    OT am I right in thinking that, since Hollande and the PS are so unpopular, Macron stands a reasonable change of getting a slice of former socialists switching to his new party? Both voters and potential representatives?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    I'll be honest, when I read the headline I thought this was going to be about Macron's domestic arrangements!

    But that was really interesting David, thank you.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Yup.

    And if you look at the cold hard figures, it is likely that there will be far more gains than losses. How many SW Remain seats are there with LD second to Tory by less than 10k votes?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    And thanks for an interesting article Richard!
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    tlg86 said:

    I'll be honest, when I read the headline I thought this was going to be about Macron's domestic arrangements!

    But that was really interesting David, thank you.

    David probably wonders if you read all the way to the bottom.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,181

    tlg86 said:

    I'll be honest, when I read the headline I thought this was going to be about Macron's domestic arrangements!

    But that was really interesting David, thank you.

    David probably wonders if you read all the way to the bottom.
    Richard meanwhile may be wondering if he read the headline!
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited April 2017
    Please note that David Herdson is on holiday and that the above post is by Richard Nabavi as is stated in the title and at the bottom.

    I know it is Saturday and that David Herdson usually does the morning slot but he's not here today
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,709
    Will Macron have to make an asset of the situation by appointing a 'cabinet of all the talents'. In effect a coalition.
    Is such a thing even possible in France?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OT Bet365 has a generous offer on the Grand National for each-way bets placed before noon -- half your stake back up to £125.

    Small print:
    https://extra.bet365.com/promotions/en/horse-racing/grand-national-money-back-offer
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Mortimer said:

    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Yup.

    And if you look at the cold hard figures, it is likely that there will be far more gains than losses. How many SW Remain seats are there with LD second to Tory by less than 10k votes?
    The polling evidence to date suggests that the Lib Dems' recovery is modest, it may be levelling off again (at least for the time being,) and that the gains are being made primarily from Labour. The performance in the locals will probably be better that this, but of course people aren't picking a Government in those elections.

    There are also, as you correctly state, very few tight marginals for the yellows to exploit. I don't have a number under the current boundaries, but I did look at the projections for the new boundaries late last year and IIRC there were about 15 seats vulnerable to the Lib Dems on a swing of 5% or less in the whole country, i.e. Including some notionally held by Labour and the SNP as well as the Tories.

    As things currently stand, the Lib Dems will be doing well to get to 20 seats at the next GE. If they aspire to get anywhere close to their 2010 result then they need to at least double their national vote share, something that currently appears unlikely.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Mortimer said:

    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Yup.

    And if you look at the cold hard figures, it is likely that there will be far more gains than losses. How many SW Remain seats are there with LD second to Tory by less than 10k votes?
    Why 10k as your cut-off point? In Richmond the Lib Dems overcame a Zac/Con majority of 23k
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    edited April 2017
    Apologies Richard. :blush:
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Mortimer said:

    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Yup.

    And if you look at the cold hard figures, it is likely that there will be far more gains than losses. How many SW Remain seats are there with LD second to Tory by less than 10k votes?
    Why 10k as your cut-off point? In Richmond the Lib Dems overcame a Zac/Con majority of 23k
    Good point, but that was in a more febrile post Brexit time.... The SW has few heavily Remain seats of the same character as richmond. Bath, Oxford? And I'd be surprised if OXWAB flipped - especially if Dr Evan is the candidate. Is he?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    @MikeSmithson - of course swings such as Richmond (and Christchurch in the 90s) are rarely seen in a general election.

    The Ld by election machine is fearsome. The GE machine, not so much.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    LD fortunes will largely be tied to how the Brexit negotiations unfold. The economic implications of failing to secure free market access would leave a great swath of moderate Tories and Labour seeking a new home - and in England the only beneficiary of that would be the LDs.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,352
    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    edited April 2017

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.

    The long-term economic implications of Brexit will only just becoming apparent in 2020.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded

    In the current best case scenario for Brexit, in 3 years' time we will be in the middle of transitionary arrangements that look just like what we have now, but without any political influence.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    Fascinating thread Mr Navabi - thanks - so, whoever wins it's likely we'll have a preoccupied France on our hands for the foreseeable future....could make things tricky...
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,193
    Mortimer said:

    @MikeSmithson - of course swings such as Richmond (and Christchurch in the 90s) are rarely seen in a general election.

    The Ld by election machine is fearsome. The GE machine, not so much.

    The current fractious mode and voter volatility means we could, I say could, see some kind of amazing swing to LibDems if Brexit goes totally wrong economically, as I believe it will.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.

    The long-term economic implications of Brexit will only just becoming apparent in 2020.
    Yes which will be positive for the UK as the EU collapses.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    Brexit might be looking good enough to notice, or bad enough to notice, in 3 years time, but the chances are 95% that it will be looking meh and will have a negligible effect on the vote. If we are in recession at the time, the recession will be blamed on Brexit, rightly or wrongly, and that might make a difference. Even then I suspect the feeling would largely be that even if TMay got us into this mess she is the only one who might remotely be competent enough to get us out again. You can't take advantage of a situation from being Corbyn or son of Corbyn, nor of being Farron plus eight.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,811

    Dunno, if you don't have your own party then your relationship with the parliamentary majority is potentially less zero-sum than if your guys are after their jobs.

    If no party has a majority, then I think Macron will be more than a figurehead, although he'll need a very good PM.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.

    The long-term economic implications of Brexit will only just becoming apparent in 2020.
    Yes which will be positive for the UK as the EU collapses.
    If that's what happening, it will indeed be good news for the tories.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,970
    edited April 2017

    Mortimer said:

    @MikeSmithson - of course swings such as Richmond (and Christchurch in the 90s) are rarely seen in a general election.

    The Ld by election machine is fearsome. The GE machine, not so much.

    The current fractious mode and voter volatility means we could, I say could, see some kind of amazing swing to LibDems if Brexit goes totally wrong economically, as I believe it will.
    Yes, that is pretty much my point. However, if the UK secures agreement on single market access, it could yet work out quite well. We simply don't know at the moment. No deal would, of course, be an effing disaster.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,811
    IanB2 said:

    Except that there are many more Tory-voting remainers than there are Brexit-obsessed LibDems.

    It will also be interesting to see whether the apparent shift in voters is also reflected amongst the business community, which could deliver valuable financial help to the LibDems, who have always been the poor relations when it comes to financial backers?

    To an extent, I think there will be a shift.

    However, I think it's clear that Conservative losses among supporters who are pro EU are strongly outweighed by gains in the rest of the electorate, although the situation will be different in individual seats.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Very interesting thread - Mr. Nabavi is surely right that Macron would enter the Presidency both with extremely high expectations and a formidable task ahead.

    In a sense he may be helped by facing Le Pen in the final round. For one thing he should win a crushing mandate. For another the point to be made to the socialists or even republicans is... Work with me or next time it really will be Le Pen.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847
    Morning all :)

    It's always nice to see people get up early on a Saturday morning just to tell everyone how crap the LDs are and how they won't win any seats at an election that's still three years away.

    Realistically, and with the forthcoming local contests in mind, my expectations are that the party will move forward and make a net gain in seats and vote share but that won't tell a more complex story.

    In some traditional areas of strength, the party will make strong gains and recover much, if not all, of the ground lost in the Coalition years. In other areas of traditional strength, the party won't do so well. These will be areas where the activist base was hollowed out under the Coalition and has not recovered while Conservatives (and others) have become established.

    In areas of previous weakness, there will be surprising progress. This will be where post-2015 activists have set up and organised and worked divisions and wards where there was not only no previous LD record of activity but very little activity of any kind and the activist base of other parties has atrophied.

    Finally, there will be substantial areas of inactivity in the past and continued inactivity where there may or may not be candidates.

    I'm pleased to see strong slates of LD candidates in many counties and other authorities and giving people the option to vote for the party (especially where that didn't exist locally before) is to be welcomed but I would no more encourage people to use May's votes to extrapolate a GE than the week's set of local by-elections.

    It's a step on a long road of recovery and re-engagement for the party. Getting people to be even aware the Party sill exists is a big task - the Coalition years have been airbrushed out of history by subsequent events and that's not wholly unwelcome for the LDs in some regard - but every seat won and every vote gained or recovered is a step up the hill. As in the past, the Party has, for better for worse, a USP which is of course mocked and deliberately misrepresented by opponents but that's politics and the party has to live with that.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.

    The long-term economic implications of Brexit will only just becoming apparent in 2020.
    Yes which will be positive for the UK as the EU collapses.
    You think the economic implications of the EU 'collapsing' will be good for the UK? Schadenfreude doesn't count towards GDP...
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.

    The long-term economic implications of Brexit will only just becoming apparent in 2020.
    Yes which will be positive for the UK as the EU collapses.
    You think the economic implications of the EU 'collapsing' will be good for the UK? Schadenfreude doesn't count towards GDP...
    Fortunately for you the Scottish economy is protected from going down the tubes by the rest of the UK
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    rkrkrk said:

    Very interesting thread - Mr. Nabavi is surely right that Macron would enter the Presidency both with extremely high expectations and a formidable task ahead.

    In a sense he may be helped by facing Le Pen in the final round. For one thing he should win a crushing mandate. For another the point to be made to the socialists or even republicans is... Work with me or next time it really will be Le Pen.

    Seems like it will be the biggest card he has to play in those circumstances. Amusing that the final round may well be between candidates from the most unpopular party and one with no tested popularity.

    Thanks to Richard n.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,193
    Really interesting article on mass renting by Gen Rent and house prices by Danny Dorling and colleagues:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/oxford-academics-house-prices-can-keep-rising-government-backs/
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    And another thing about LD revival, 9*6<56. A full LD recovery would require regaining third place, and on present figures a sixfold increase in number of MPs would, remarkably, be inadequate.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,313
    Grand national tips, anyone?
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Grand national tips, anyone?

    statistically it must be the WORST race to bet on.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,811
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    It's always nice to see people get up early on a Saturday morning just to tell everyone how crap the LDs are and how they won't win any seats at an election that's still three years away.

    Realistically, and with the forthcoming local contests in mind, my expectations are that the party will move forward and make a net gain in seats and vote share but that won't tell a more complex story.

    In some traditional areas of strength, the party will make strong gains and recover much, if not all, of the ground lost in the Coalition years. In other areas of traditional strength, the party won't do so well. These will be areas where the activist base was hollowed out under the Coalition and has not recovered while Conservatives (and others) have become established.

    In areas of previous weakness, there will be surprising progress. This will be where post-2015 activists have set up and organised and worked divisions and wards where there was not only no previous LD record of activity but very little activity of any kind and the activist base of other parties has atrophied.

    Finally, there will be substantial areas of inactivity in the past and continued inactivity where there may or may not be candidates.

    I'm pleased to see strong slates of LD candidates in many counties and other authorities and giving people the option to vote for the party (especially where that didn't exist locally before) is to be welcomed but I would no more encourage people to use May's votes to extrapolate a GE than the week's set of local by-elections.

    It's a step on a long road of recovery and re-engagement for the party. Getting people to be even aware the Party sill exists is a big task - the Coalition years have been airbrushed out of history by subsequent events and that's not wholly unwelcome for the LDs in some regard - but every seat won and every vote gained or recovered is a step up the hill. As in the past, the Party has, for better for worse, a USP which is of course mocked and deliberately misrepresented by opponents but that's politics and the party has to live with that.

    I think the Lib Dems will do quite well in these local elections. 100-125 gains seems quite achievable.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,940
    @stodge: that's an excellent post, thanks.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.

    The long-term economic implications of Brexit will only just becoming apparent in 2020.
    Yes which will be positive for the UK as the EU collapses.
    You think the economic implications of the EU 'collapsing' will be good for the UK? Schadenfreude doesn't count towards GDP...
    Fortunately for you the Scottish economy is protected from going down the tubes by the rest of the UK
    I'm not Scottish.
  • Options

    Will Macron have to make an asset of the situation by appointing a 'cabinet of all the talents'. In effect a coalition.
    Is such a thing even possible in France?

    Considering Fillon has been hammered by all and sundry, he is still doing well in the opinion polls.

    I actually think Fillon is not only the value bet, but I think he will make it into the last 2! He might beat Le Pen or Macron to 2nd place. Macron is not nailed on. DYOR.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,874

    Grand national tips, anyone?

    statistically it must be the WORST race to bet on.
    You don't need to be very cynical to think that forty horses running a 4m4f handicapped steeplechase isn't going to much more than a lottery!

    @Pulpstar highlighted some tips on the last thread, along with a genuinely good promo from Bet365.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Given Le Pen will win the first round according to Ifop and get 41% in the runoff against Macron and Melenchon win get a first round total of 17.5% that is Sam extremely muted rejection of populism at best. I also agree the centre right Led Republicains are still likely to be the largest party in the legislature even if Macron wins
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Brexiteer said:

    Will Macron have to make an asset of the situation by appointing a 'cabinet of all the talents'. In effect a coalition.
    Is such a thing even possible in France?

    Considering Fillon has been hammered by all and sundry, he is still doing well in the opinion polls.

    I actually think Fillon is not only the value bet, but I think he will make it into the last 2! He might beat Le Pen or Macron to 2nd place. Macron is not nailed on. DYOR.
    As I posted last night Fillon is tied with Macron on 22% with Ifop amongst over 35s with Le Pen on 25% and amongst over 65s Fillon has a clear lead on 38%
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,219
    I take Richards point up to a point but I do wonder if politics is now sufficiently febrile for Macron's new party to have sweeping gains. Hollande has almost killed the traditional Socialists and there must be a significant number of them willing to jump ship, especially with Ministerial jobs on offer from a newly elected President.

    My guess is that the traditional parties are much weaker and more vulnerable than they appear. If only the SDP had had the option of running for President all those years ago....
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2017
    IanB2 said:

    Except that there are many more Tory-voting remainers than there are Brexit-obsessed LibDems.

    It will also be interesting to see whether the apparent shift in voters is also reflected amongst the business community, which could deliver valuable financial help to the LibDems, who have always been the poor relations when it comes to financial backers?

    Relative to Cameron May is doing worse with ABs, so she will lose some seats to the LDs but better with C1s and C2s than Cameron and a little better with DEs too so she will gain even more seats from Labour hence the Tories lost Richmond Park but gained Copeland
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    On topic - so if Macron wins, no radical agenda to change France...

    On the subject of the LDs - all the polls indicate that they are not rampaging through the landing, casting down all before them. The polls can be wrong. But what is the biggest miss in modern political polling? How many extra % could they really have?

    2020 is all going to be about Brexit. If it's looking good, the Tories will win by a landslide that could even surpass Blair's in 1997. However, if it's not, the LDs will be pretty much the only party in England able to take advantage (even if Labour have ejected Corbyn by then, their disarray is now too far gone for recovery by 2020).
    In 3 years time Brexit will be embedded, Lib Dems might pick up a few targetted seats but I can't see anything other than a Tory landslide as UKIP vanish.

    The long-term economic implications of Brexit will only just becoming apparent in 2020.
    Yes which will be positive for the UK as the EU collapses.
    You think the economic implications of the EU 'collapsing' will be good for the UK? Schadenfreude doesn't count towards GDP...
    Fortunately for you the Scottish economy is protected from going down the tubes by the rest of the UK
    You absolute dummy, it is going down the tubes due to the crap UK policies being forced on it.
  • Options
    Election 92 is now​ on. Lots of talk about NOM
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,219
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Except that there are many more Tory-voting remainers than there are Brexit-obsessed LibDems.

    It will also be interesting to see whether the apparent shift in voters is also reflected amongst the business community, which could deliver valuable financial help to the LibDems, who have always been the poor relations when it comes to financial backers?

    Relative to Cameron May is doing worse with ABs, so she will lose some seats to the LDs but better with C1s and C2s than Cameron and a little better with DEs too so she will gain even more seats from Labour hence the Tories lost Richmond Park but gained Copeland
    I think it will prove a mistake to read too much into Richmond. Goldsmith was seriously damaged goods after a humiliating Mayoral election and had at best ambivalent Tory support for causing an awkward bye election to run against government policy.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: interesting grid. Wet weather tomorrow (90% chance, apparently) complicates things. Will be a while before the markets awaken.

    Mr. Royale, not a tip as such, but I was asked to put a small sum on One For Arthur (think that was the name, has Arthur in it, anyway).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Except that there are many more Tory-voting remainers than there are Brexit-obsessed LibDems.

    It will also be interesting to see whether the apparent shift in voters is also reflected amongst the business community, which could deliver valuable financial help to the LibDems, who have always been the poor relations when it comes to financial backers?

    Relative to Cameron May is doing worse with ABs, so she will lose some seats to the LDs but better with C1s and C2s than Cameron and a little better with DEs too so she will gain even more seats from Labour hence the Tories lost Richmond Park but gained Copeland
    I think it will prove a mistake to read too much into Richmond. Goldsmith was seriously damaged goods after a humiliating Mayoral election and had at best ambivalent Tory support for causing an awkward bye election to run against government policy.
    Perhaps but broadly I would say the posher the constituency the worse May will do relative to Cameron and the more working class the constituency the better she will do relative to Cameron
  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    Brexiteer said:

    Will Macron have to make an asset of the situation by appointing a 'cabinet of all the talents'. In effect a coalition.
    Is such a thing even possible in France?

    Considering Fillon has been hammered by all and sundry, he is still doing well in the opinion polls.

    I actually think Fillon is not only the value bet, but I think he will make it into the last 2! He might beat Le Pen or Macron to 2nd place. Macron is not nailed on. DYOR.

    Fillon is holding on well, and Melenchon has surged, both on 19% in latest poll. Macron and Le Pen both falling back to 23%. Could be anyone's game to make it in into round 2 (I still think it will be Macron/Le Pen, but the trend is moving away from them both).
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    Election 92 is now​ on. Lots of talk about NOM

    Tories largest party but Ashdown kingmaker is the current conclusion
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,520

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: interesting grid. Wet weather tomorrow (90% chance, apparently) complicates things. Will be a while before the markets awaken.

    Mr. Royale, not a tip as such, but I was asked to put a small sum on One For Arthur (think that was the name, has Arthur in it, anyway).

    Morning, Mr.D.
    Post qualifying, I took the opportunity to close my position on Hamilton for the championship (at a profit). Ferrari look interestingly close, and if their race pace proves superior, a Vettel victory will likely see his championship odds plummet. Conversely, a Hamilton victory won't I think move the odds greatly.
    Your thoughts for the race ?
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    Grand national tips, anyone?

    For me :smile:
    One for Arthur
    Saphir Du Rheu
    More of That
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Mortimer said:

    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Yup.

    And if you look at the cold hard figures, it is likely that there will be far more gains than losses. How many SW Remain seats are there with LD second to Tory by less than 10k votes?
    Why 10k as your cut-off point? In Richmond the Lib Dems overcame a Zac/Con majority of 23k
    In a by-election. During a GE are you certain that the Lib Dems would have overturned the same majority?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,612
    DavidL said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Except that there are many more Tory-voting remainers than there are Brexit-obsessed LibDems.

    It will also be interesting to see whether the apparent shift in voters is also reflected amongst the business community, which could deliver valuable financial help to the LibDems, who have always been the poor relations when it comes to financial backers?

    Relative to Cameron May is doing worse with ABs, so she will lose some seats to the LDs but better with C1s and C2s than Cameron and a little better with DEs too so she will gain even more seats from Labour hence the Tories lost Richmond Park but gained Copeland
    I think it will prove a mistake to read too much into Richmond. Goldsmith was seriously damaged goods after a humiliating Mayoral election and had at best ambivalent Tory support for causing an awkward bye election to run against government policy.
    I think the Lib Dems are assigning to Richmond more significance that it really warrants - as you observe it was a far from typical by-election.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847
    HYUFD said:


    Relative to Cameron May is doing worse with ABs, so she will lose some seats to the LDs but better with C1s and C2s than Cameron and a little better with DEs too so she will gain even more seats from Labour hence the Tories lost Richmond Park but gained Copeland

    I think one of the key questions is who will turn out and vote at the local contests. Conservative support at national level among C1s and C2s might not translate into local support.

    It's worth remembering the Conservatives lost over 300 seats in 2013 - these weren't to the LDs but were mainly to UKIP and Labour. Getting the UKIP seats back is a given but the big question is the potential for Conservative gains from Labour and whether these will be enough to offset losses to the LDs.

    Messrs Rallings, Thrasher and Curtice generally know what they're talking about - I suspect the Conservative figure will be nearer neutral or a smaller net gain tally (20 rather than 50 or higher). The Labour and UKIP losses will be in three figures as will the LD gains - let's not forget the LDs lost seats to Conservatives, Labour and UKIP last time. The focus has been on the CON-LD battles because there are plenty of them but the Lab-LD and UKIP-LD seats aren't insignificant. If Labour are doing that badly, they will ship seats to both Conservative and LD (look at Durham as an example).

  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    People need to remember that it will be 10 years of tory government by 2020. There will be people desperate for a sensible anti-government vote option simply because that is what happens after 10 years in power. Corbyn will lose to May of course, but the LDs may see large gains regardless of Brexit, simply by presenting themselves as the sane alternative to the tories.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited April 2017
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Relative to Cameron May is doing worse with ABs, so she will lose some seats to the LDs but better with C1s and C2s than Cameron and a little better with DEs too so she will gain even more seats from Labour hence the Tories lost Richmond Park but gained Copeland

    I think one of the key questions is who will turn out and vote at the local contests. Conservative support at national level among C1s and C2s might not translate into local support.

    It's worth remembering the Conservatives lost over 300 seats in 2013 - these weren't to the LDs but were mainly to UKIP and Labour. Getting the UKIP seats back is a given but the big question is the potential for Conservative gains from Labour and whether these will be enough to offset losses to the LDs.

    Messrs Rallings, Thrasher and Curtice generally know what they're talking about - I suspect the Conservative figure will be nearer neutral or a smaller net gain tally (20 rather than 50 or higher). The Labour and UKIP losses will be in three figures as will the LD gains - let's not forget the LDs lost seats to Conservatives, Labour and UKIP last time. The focus has been on the CON-LD battles because there are plenty of them but the Lab-LD and UKIP-LD seats aren't insignificant. If Labour are doing that badly, they will ship seats to both Conservative and LD (look at Durham as an example).

    I think there is a strong possibility the LDs come second in the county council elections behind the Tories although the Welsh, Scottish and Mayoral elections could enable Labour to scrape second in overall voteshare
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,874

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: interesting grid. Wet weather tomorrow (90% chance, apparently) complicates things. Will be a while before the markets awaken.

    Very good qualifying session. One car in particular is well out of position at the back, with a young driver who's showed himself to be good in the rain before. It will also be the first time that a lot of the drivers have used the new tyres in the rain.

    Bets to be considered:
    Max Verstappen for a podium
    McLarens for points
    Safety car or not
    Bottas for a podium / win

    Let's see what the markets say when they wake up.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,811
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Relative to Cameron May is doing worse with ABs, so she will lose some seats to the LDs but better with C1s and C2s than Cameron and a little better with DEs too so she will gain even more seats from Labour hence the Tories lost Richmond Park but gained Copeland

    I think one of the key questions is who will turn out and vote at the local contests. Conservative support at national level among C1s and C2s might not translate into local support.

    It's worth remembering the Conservatives lost over 300 seats in 2013 - these weren't to the LDs but were mainly to UKIP and Labour. Getting the UKIP seats back is a given but the big question is the potential for Conservative gains from Labour and whether these will be enough to offset losses to the LDs.

    Messrs Rallings, Thrasher and Curtice generally know what they're talking about - I suspect the Conservative figure will be nearer neutral or a smaller net gain tally (20 rather than 50 or higher). The Labour and UKIP losses will be in three figures as will the LD gains - let's not forget the LDs lost seats to Conservatives, Labour and UKIP last time. The focus has been on the CON-LD battles because there are plenty of them but the Lab-LD and UKIP-LD seats aren't insignificant. If Labour are doing that badly, they will ship seats to both Conservative and LD (look at Durham as an example).

    I think the Conservatives will win very big against Labour in the Midlands, plus Lancashire and Cumbria.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    edited April 2017
    Sandpit said:

    Grand national tips, anyone?

    statistically it must be the WORST race to bet on.
    You don't need to be very cynical to think that forty horses running a 4m4f handicapped steeplechase isn't going to much more than a lottery!

    @Pulpstar highlighted some tips on the last thread, along with a genuinely good promo from Bet365.
    Those horses might have changed as it was a purely priced based exercise at the time. Picking a basket of horses should cancel shortening/lengthening of the true price (Betfair) though.

    To convert from 6 places to 5, the formula is

    S=(3*((3*F)-1))/10

    So 6 places priced at 17.7 is the same as 5 places priced at 20.0

    I'll work out how much I can expect to be ahead or behind in a bit with my picks (365's v generous terms means I'll be ahead come the race almost certainly)

    Offer ends at noon, existing customers only
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,924
    I am beginning to think Macron will not make the run-off.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    People need to remember that it will be 10 years of tory government by 2020. There will be people desperate for a sensible anti-government vote option simply because that is what happens after 10 years in power. Corbyn will lose to May of course, but the LDs may see large gains regardless of Brexit, simply by presenting themselves as the sane alternative to the tories.

    Normally I'd agree. The risk is that if they appear monomaniacal about Brexit they will put some people off (e.g. That guy from Woking who posted the other day that he was a winnable vote for the LibDems who wasn't voting for them in the locals because of this)

    So the assessment they have to make is whether anti Brexit (probably smaller but more certain) is a better positioning than "sane opposition" (I'd guess higher potential but more risky)
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,847


    I think the Lib Dems are assigning to Richmond more significance that it really warrants - as you observe it was a far from typical by-election.

    No, the significance was the LDs won and a win is a win even against a Conservative masquerading as an Independent in a seat where, for some odd reason, the Conservatives chose not to stand an official candidate.

    Had Goldsmith won, the Conservatives on here would have been full of how Farron was a failure, the LDs were a busted flush, how Goldsmith really was a Conservative and of course as night follows day, the Independent Goldsmith would have returned to the Conservative fold and been welcomed back by 2020.

    Richmond Park was significant for Tim just as Eastbourne (under very different and tragic circumstances) was significant for Paddy and Romsey (also under tragic circumstances) was for Charles Kennedy. It was their win in a seat into which they had invested personal and political capital.

  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Morning all. I missed this last night:
    MaxPB said:

    chestnut said:

    Andrew Neil‏Verified account @afneil 2h2 hours ago

    What has neutral Sweden done to deserve this?
    Never in Mid-East war
    Non-Nato
    Most welcoming of Muslim refugees.
    Massive foreign aid

    Oddly naive view from Neil, rarely. There's no such thing as deserving or undeserving when it comes to Islamic terrorism. We are all deserving in the eye's of these terrorists because we aren't Muslims and they are armed with clear cut passages from the Koran which encourages the perpetration of violence against non-Muslims. It is the basic and most simple reason why Islam is not compatible with the west and why minorities in Muslim majority countries are treated like shit.
    Neil is addressing the argument of those, principally on the left, who excuse terrorist attacks against the UK and other western countries on the grounds that we "are asking for it" because of our actions in the Middle East etc.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    Charles said:

    So the assessment they have to make is whether anti Brexit (probably smaller but more certain) is a better positioning than "sane opposition" (I'd guess higher potential but more risky)

    This far out from the next national election, being clearly anti-Brexit is crucial to positioning themselves as "sane opposition" when the time comes.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    edited April 2017

    People need to remember that it will be 10 years of tory government by 2020. There will be people desperate for a sensible anti-government vote option simply because that is what happens after 10 years in power. Corbyn will lose to May of course, but the LDs may see large gains regardless of Brexit, simply by presenting themselves as the sane alternative to the tories.

    I don't know what the historical precedents are like with this, but last summer felt like a change of government.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Sandpit, I agree with most of those (for consideration) probably excepting Bottas. I think the odds there are unlikely to be value.

    Mr. B, I agree with that assessment.

    A lot depends on the sogginess. If it's very wet then Verstappen could do very well indeed. If it's largely dry, he won't make the top 6, all else being equal.

    I do have a question mark over Red Bull reliability.

    Grosjean may also be worth a look. The Haas is fast and he's a good driver.

    [Apologies for tardy reply, immediately after logging in I was afk for the better part of an hour].
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited April 2017
    Morning all, Thanks for the comments, and apologies for not being David Herdson!

    I think the key point here is that the presidential election is only the first half of the pair of elections which will determine what happens in France over the next few years. Although I focused on Macron, you can ask the same question about the other candidates. Of those in the running, only Fillon has any chance of becoming president and of having his party grouping holding a majority in the Assembly, and that looks a slim chance.

    If Le Pen wins, she will face a huge anti-Front National majority in the Assembly, so how much could she actually do, for better or worse? That could lead to something of a constitutional crisis.

    If Mélenchon were to win, the situation would be somewhat similar; he'd have to rely on the Parti Socialiste and other parties of the left, but they don't look at all likely to do well. Even if they did, they'd probably baulk at some of his nuttier policies.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Really interesting article on mass renting by Gen Rent and house prices by Danny Dorling and colleagues:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/oxford-academics-house-prices-can-keep-rising-government-backs/

    The statistics seem staggering - particularly for older people. As a young person i was fine renting in London for the flexibility... That can't be the case for all those people in their fifties....

    Increasingly i think either we will have to accept as a society that only the rich own their own homes - or we need a pretty massive realignment through some form of state intervention. Maybe a ban on buy to let in certain areas? Maybe rent controls to make buy to let less attractive? Maybe a limit on number of properties someone can own? Or very significant taxes on property outside of your main residence.

    Something has to give surely.

    For his faults - Ed M. was trying to grapple with these issues. Osborne just wanted to inflate housing further. I'm optimistic TM will be more in touch on this and will try to address it... But Brexit will have to be the focus.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Yup.

    And if you look at the cold hard figures, it is likely that there will be far more gains than losses. How many SW Remain seats are there with LD second to Tory by less than 10k votes?
    Why 10k as your cut-off point? In Richmond the Lib Dems overcame a Zac/Con majority of 23k
    Good point, but that was in a more febrile post Brexit time....
    And the Tories didn't stand. Goldsmith couldn't use Tory data - this won't apply to GE seats.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,065

    Please note that David Herdson is on holiday and that the above post is by Richard Nabavi as is stated in the title and at the bottom.

    I know it is Saturday and that David Herdson usually does the morning slot but he's not here today

    Sod Herdson and his holiday - what I want to know is where is PtP and his GN tips, do I have to do my own research as to which horses I should lose money on ?

    But thanks to RN for his recent pieces.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,811
    Charles said:

    People need to remember that it will be 10 years of tory government by 2020. There will be people desperate for a sensible anti-government vote option simply because that is what happens after 10 years in power. Corbyn will lose to May of course, but the LDs may see large gains regardless of Brexit, simply by presenting themselves as the sane alternative to the tories.

    Normally I'd agree. The risk is that if they appear monomaniacal about Brexit they will put some people off (e.g. That guy from Woking who posted the other day that he was a winnable vote for the LibDems who wasn't voting for them in the locals because of this)

    So the assessment they have to make is whether anti Brexit (probably smaller but more certain) is a better positioning than "sane opposition" (I'd guess higher potential but more risky)
    There are 20% who are hardline anti-Brexit. It makes sense for the Lib Dems to go after them.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709

    Mortimer said:

    @MikeSmithson - of course swings such as Richmond (and Christchurch in the 90s) are rarely seen in a general election.

    The Ld by election machine is fearsome. The GE machine, not so much.

    The current fractious mode and voter volatility means we could, I say could, see some kind of amazing swing to LibDems if Brexit goes totally wrong economically, as I believe it will.
    Yes, that is pretty much my point. However, if the UK secures agreement on single market access, it could yet work out quite well. We simply don't know at the moment. No deal would, of course, be an effing disaster.
    I'm pretty confident Brexit won't be resolved by 2020, which means the same arguments as now will still hold sway. Indyref in Scotland shows positions can remain entrenched for a long time. It all depends on what happens to UKIP. If the Conservatives can sweep up most of the Leave voters and dominate the FPTP system, just as the SNP do in Scotland.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    rkrkrk said:

    I'm optimistic TM will be more in touch on this and will try to address it...

    Theresa May has already been in office for over a tenth of David Cameron's entire tenure. When does the time for optimism end and the time for judgement begin?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sean_F said:

    Charles said:

    People need to remember that it will be 10 years of tory government by 2020. There will be people desperate for a sensible anti-government vote option simply because that is what happens after 10 years in power. Corbyn will lose to May of course, but the LDs may see large gains regardless of Brexit, simply by presenting themselves as the sane alternative to the tories.

    Normally I'd agree. The risk is that if they appear monomaniacal about Brexit they will put some people off (e.g. That guy from Woking who posted the other day that he was a winnable vote for the LibDems who wasn't voting for them in the locals because of this)

    So the assessment they have to make is whether anti Brexit (probably smaller but more certain) is a better positioning than "sane opposition" (I'd guess higher potential but more risky)
    There are 20% who are hardline anti-Brexit. It makes sense for the Lib Dems to go after them.
    There are 60% who are anti-government.

    By 2020 Brexit will have happened and opposing it may be a case of "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted" even to some of those 20%. The 60% will still be there though.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,862

    rkrkrk said:

    I'm optimistic TM will be more in touch on this and will try to address it...

    Theresa May has already been in office for over a tenth of David Cameron's entire tenure. When does the time for optimism end and the time for judgement begin?
    When will she ever get past platitudes and actually do something. Fanboys will stop wetting their pants pretty quickly , given her past record she will do little to nothing other than soundbites , dither and get out before the penny drops that she is crap.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    Great thread, cheers Mr Nabavi, I was not aware Macron had such a fascinating backstory.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,874
    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    Ed goes on a comedy show and they promise not to mercilessly take the piss. They make their promise on an 8' high slab brought into the studio on a forklift. :D

    https://twitter.com/undefined/status/850458418058059776
  • Options
    My glue factory watchGrand National tip is Perfect Candidate at 50/1.

    On topic, another excellent thread Richard.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    Ed goes on a comedy show and they promise not to mercilessly take the piss. They make their promise on an 8' high slab brought into the studio on a forklift. :D

    https://twitter.com/undefined/status/850458418058059776

    Did they raise the awkward subject of Syria?
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    The Ed Stone will look inspired by comparison if we get to witness Corbyn running a GE campaign.

    Morning all, and thanks for an interesting read Richard.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    Ed goes on a comedy show and they promise not to mercilessly take the piss. They make their promise on an 8' high slab brought into the studio on a forklift. :D

    https://twitter.com/undefined/status/850458418058059776

    Did they raise the awkward subject of Syria?
    Yes and Ed M said he would have made the same decision though he understood what a difficult choice Trump had to make
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019

    My glue factory watchGrand National tip is Perfect Candidate at 50/1.

    On topic, another excellent thread Richard.

    That's also my wife's selection. She likes the colours :lol:
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,874
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    Ed goes on a comedy show and they promise not to mercilessly take the piss. They make their promise on an 8' high slab brought into the studio on a forklift. :D

    https://twitter.com/undefined/status/850458418058059776

    Did they raise the awkward subject of Syria?
    Yep, and he weaselled his way out of it, talking about the morality of the decision - rather than the naked partisanship it was at the time in 2013.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=sxdkBzdEFxc
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    Ed goes on a comedy show and they promise not to mercilessly take the piss. They make their promise on an 8' high slab brought into the studio on a forklift. :D

    https://twitter.com/undefined/status/850458418058059776

    Did they raise the awkward subject of Syria?
    Yes and Ed M said he would have made the same decision though he understood what a difficult choice Trump had to make
    Interesting, thanks. I actually don't think it was a difficult choice for Trump. The really difficult choice is what to do if there is another chemical attack.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,989
    rkrkrk said:

    Really interesting article on mass renting by Gen Rent and house prices by Danny Dorling and colleagues:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/buy-to-let/oxford-academics-house-prices-can-keep-rising-government-backs/

    The statistics seem staggering - particularly for older people. As a young person i was fine renting in London for the flexibility... That can't be the case for all those people in their fifties....

    Increasingly i think either we will have to accept as a society that only the rich own their own homes - or we need a pretty massive realignment through some form of state intervention. Maybe a ban on buy to let in certain areas? Maybe rent controls to make buy to let less attractive? Maybe a limit on number of properties someone can own? Or very significant taxes on property outside of your main residence.

    Something has to give surely.

    For his faults - Ed M. was trying to grapple with these issues. Osborne just wanted to inflate housing further. I'm optimistic TM will be more in touch on this and will try to address it... But Brexit will have to be the focus.
    I think mass home ownership in the UK will be a anomalous blip that was largely confined to the second of the 20th C.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,874
    Essexit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    The Ed Stone will look inspired by comparison if we get to witness Corbyn running a GE campaign.

    Morning all, and thanks for an interesting read Richard.
    Will Corbyn's team even take a decision to do anything but a rally in Islington Town Hall for the whole election campaign?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,065

    Mortimer said:

    JohnLoony said:

    For every Remainer switching from life-long-Conservative to now-Lib-Dem, there are just as many (or probably more) Brexiters switching the other way from Lab/LibDem to Con/UKIP for the opposite reason.

    Yup.

    And if you look at the cold hard figures, it is likely that there will be far more gains than losses. How many SW Remain seats are there with LD second to Tory by less than 10k votes?
    Why 10k as your cut-off point? In Richmond the Lib Dems overcame a Zac/Con majority of 23k
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_North_West_by-election,_1981
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosby_by-election,_1981
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryedale_by-election,_1986
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastbourne_by-election,_1990
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribble_Valley_by-election,_1991
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kincardine_and_Deeside_by-election,_1991

    Now lets consider which constituencies the LibDems have gained from the Conservatives in recent general elections:

    2010 Eastbourne Con defending 1,124 maj
    2010 Wells Con defending 3,040 maj

    2005 Solihull Con defending 9,407 maj
    2005 Taunton Con defending 205 maj
    2005 Westmoreland Con defending 3,407 maj

    2001 Cheadle Con defending 3,189 maj
    2001 Dorset Mid Con defending 681 maj
    2001 Guildford Con defending 4,791 maj
    2001 Ludlow Con defending 5,909 maj
    2001 Norfolk N Con defending 1,293 maj
    2001 Teignbridge Con defending 281 maj

    Not much evidence there that the LibDems are going to start overturning 10k Conservative majorities.

    Now if the Conservatives are as unpopular in 2020 as they were in 1997 the LibDems might be able to make big gains. But there's much which will have to change for that to happen.
  • Options
    kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,941
    rkrkrk said:


    The statistics seem staggering - particularly for older people. As a young person i was fine renting in London for the flexibility... That can't be the case for all those people in their fifties....

    Increasingly i think either we will have to accept as a society that only the rich own their own homes - or we need a pretty massive realignment through some form of state intervention. Maybe a ban on buy to let in certain areas? Maybe rent controls to make buy to let less attractive? Maybe a limit on number of properties someone can own? Or very significant taxes on property outside of your main residence.

    Something has to give surely.

    ...Ed M. was trying to grapple with these issues. Osborne just wanted to inflate housing further. I'm optimistic TM will be more in touch on this and will try to address it... But Brexit will have to be the focus.

    The question is how to disentangle ourselves from the situation we're now in. Clearly 'something has to give' as you say but what.

    A wholesale correction of 25% would be welcomed by those not on the ladder and long-term owners. If you bought your place for 100k and it goes from 1m to 750k, so what, right? But the people it will screw over the most are first time buyers proabaly in their twenties and thirties who will be pushed into negative equity just a time when they may have a growing family and need to be trading up.

    Then you have people whose wealth is all tied up in houses. Knowingly or not the government has vastly incentivised using buy to lets as a pension pot.

    A correction of 50% would cause a panic and depress the economy - over-reliant as it is on wealth artificially created through the housing bubble - for the next decade. And a correction of 10% wouldn't make a difference to anyone who really needs it.

    My solution would be to use a combination of policies to affect supply and demand over the next few years, keeping house prices roughly stable but in a slow, manageable decline (say 25% over the next 10 years).

    - Disincentivise further buy to let purchases via tax, tax should be on purchase / sale rather than rental income to protect investors and prevent a glut of sales

    - Build more houses! Obvious, this one. Reduce regulations on building new houses, where they can be built, height of buildings etc, while also increasing regulations on quality of stock, size of rooms etc, to ensure houses are of a high standard and retain their value.

    - Reduce demand by controlling immigration. The population rises by 300,000 each year but the housing stock doesn't. We will never get house prices under control until we tackle immigration.

    This should be coupled with greater protection for renters, standards and secure tenancies.

    One of the surest signs of Conservative votership is home ownership, unless the Tories get this under control in the next decade they could easily be out of power for a generation.
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    tlg86 said:

    HYUFD said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    Ed goes on a comedy show and they promise not to mercilessly take the piss. They make their promise on an 8' high slab brought into the studio on a forklift. :D

    https://twitter.com/undefined/status/850458418058059776

    Did they raise the awkward subject of Syria?
    Yes and Ed M said he would have made the same decision though he understood what a difficult choice Trump had to make
    Interesting, thanks. I actually don't think it was a difficult choice for Trump. The really difficult choice is what to do if there is another chemical attack.
    I just hope that the Russians and Americans don't use this as an excuse to try out different weapons systems
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    edited April 2017
    Sandpit said:

    Will the Ed Stone go down as the worst political stunt of the 21st century?

    Worst or best?

    I love the Ed Stone - even if you were a fan of Ed M, even if you liked the vapid slogans on the stone itself, it was still a bloody silly stunt, so good.

    Admittedly helped out later with the superlative media performer Lucy Powell commenting that the Ed Stone didn't mean the promises carved into stone meant they might not be broken. It's not like they were written in stone or anything after all.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,811
    kyf_100 said:

    rkrkrk said:


    The statistics seem staggering - particularly for older people. As a young person i was fine renting in London for the flexibility... That can't be the case for all those people in their fifties....

    Increasingly i think either we will have to accept as a society that only the rich own their own homes - or we need a pretty massive realignment through some form of state intervention. Maybe a ban on buy to let in certain areas? Maybe rent controls to make buy to let less attractive? Maybe a limit on number of properties someone can own? Or very significant taxes on property outside of your main residence.

    Something has to give surely.

    ...Ed M. was trying to grapple with these issues. Osborne just wanted to inflate housing further. I'm optimistic TM will be more in touch on this and will try to address it... But Brexit will have to be the focus.

    The question is how to disentangle ourselves from the situation we're now in. Clearly 'something has to give'

    Then you have people whose wealth is all tied up in houses. Knowingly or not the government has vastly incentivised using buy to lets as a pension pot.

    A correction of 50% would cause a panic and depress the economy - over-reliant as it is on wealth artificially created through the housing bubble - for the next decade. And a correction of 10% wouldn't make a difference to anyone who really needs it.

    My solution would be to use a combination of policies to affect supply and demand over the next few years, keeping house prices roughly stable but in a slow, manageable decline (say 25% over the next 10 years).

    - Disincentivise further buy to let purchases via tax, tax should be on purchase / sale rather than rental income to protect investors and prevent a glut of sales

    - Build more houses! Obvious, this one. Reduce regulations on building new houses, where they can be built, height of buildings etc, while also increasing regulations on quality of stock, size of rooms etc, to ensure houses are of a high standard and retain their value.

    - Reduce demand by controlling immigration. The population rises by 300,000 each year but the housing stock doesn't. We will never get house prices under control until we tackle immigration.

    This should be coupled with greater protection for renters, standards and secure tenancies.

    One of the surest signs of Conservative votership is home ownership, unless the Tories get this under control in the next decade they could easily be out of power for a generation.
    Security of tenure, and rent controls, killed off mainstream private renting from 1965 to 1988, and opened the Market to the most unscrupulous landlords who used brutal methods to get vacant possession.

    I'd agree with mass building and controlling immigration. I'd add punitive taxes on people who buy property and neither reside in it or let it out.
This discussion has been closed.