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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest French Presidential betting has Marine Le Pen with

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited April 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The latest French Presidential betting has Marine Le Pen with an 87% chance of making it to the final two

With the French presidential election moving into the final two weeks I thought it might be useful to look at the betting by concentrating on who will make it to the final two. That runoff election takes places a fortnight later on the Sunday after British locals.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    First, like Macron!
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    Zut alors! Seconde!

    Comme Mme le Pen
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,843
    Troisième, comme M. Fillon
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited April 2017
    3rd and Crap like Corbyn!!

    The Middlesbrough local by election result is a stunning victory for the Tories, The FIRST Tory councillor EVER in Middlesbrough..
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Marine Le Pen's declining support seems to belie her erstwhile supporters' previously-stated certainty to vote for her. Perhaps her potential supporters are more likely to overstate the finality of their decision? Anyway, she now looks in real doubt to make the last two, never mind win the thing.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    They are never completely irrelevant. It does tell us that what used to go for the norm, that the incumbent Govt gets a kicking isn't happening and that there is confidence in the current national polling figures.,

    HOw would you explain it? Local factors?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    They are never completely irrelevant. It does tell us that what used to go for the norm, that the incumbent Govt gets a kicking isn't happening and that there is confidence in the current national polling figures.,

    HOw would you explain it? Local factors?
    It seems they are only irrelevant when the LDs pick up massive swings.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    They are never completely irrelevant. It does tell us that what used to go for the norm, that the incumbent Govt gets a kicking isn't happening and that there is confidence in the current national polling figures.,

    HOw would you explain it? Local factors?
    Not necessarily. But the ridiculous way in which some of our resident Tories have sought to explain away the striking run of Lib Dem successes stands in stark contrast with the euphoria with which this single success has been greeted.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    They are never completely irrelevant. It does tell us that what used to go for the norm, that the incumbent Govt gets a kicking isn't happening and that there is confidence in the current national polling figures.,

    HOw would you explain it? Local factors?
    It seems they are only irrelevant when the LDs pick up massive swings.
    They are always dismissed as victory via bar chart lies :) LD's are the party of local elections.
    Its right to question their undoubted local election successes given how low they languish in the National polls.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    chortle

    interest rates are at an all time low and I doubt too many people will shed tears on rich people paying fees.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited April 2017
    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4
  • Options
    saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    edited April 2017
    Can't snip correctly, using a kindle, appears to be desperate times for our favourite big brother contestant.

    http://vote-2012.proboards.com/thread/9243/manchester-gorton?page=61

    Edit, go to bottom of page.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    Marine Le Pen's declining support seems to belie her erstwhile supporters' previously-stated certainty to vote for her. Perhaps her potential supporters are more likely to overstate the finality of their decision? Anyway, she now looks in real doubt to make the last two, never mind win the thing.

    The PVV also had the highest "certainty to vote" figures in the Dutch election. I have a theory (bear with me) that might be rubbish. Young people are the most likely to say "Yes! I've made up my mind 100% and will definitely vote for [x]". Older people - whom experience has made wary - will prevaricate more.

    You need to bear this in mind when thinking about who will turn out on election day.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222
    tlg86 said:

    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?

    The trick in persuading many people to stand for the council used to be to assure them there was no prospect of their actually winning.

    Maybe, for the LibDems, that is getting more difficult lately?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    tlg86 said:

    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?

    They must have taken the view that a couple of poor results would have killed the "Winning here!" narrative.... Or their phone-bank needed a week off.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222

    3rd and Crap like Corbyn!!

    The Middlesbrough local by election result is a stunning victory for the Tories, The FIRST Tory councillor EVER in Middlesbrough..

    Are you sure? I thought the factoid applied only to that particular ward.

    It was an 8% swing, which towards a sitting government is impressive, but it is not as if the Tories came from nowhere to win.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    tlg86 said:

    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?

    They must have taken the view that a couple of poor results would have killed the "Winning here!" narrative.... Or their phone-bank needed a week off.
    Quite impressed that they’ve managed to field practically a full slate in the Essex County elections. Think there’s only one seat they’re not contesting. How hard they’ll be fought we wait to see, of course. At least I’ve the opportunity to vote LD again.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222
    edited April 2017
    IanB2 said:

    3rd and Crap like Corbyn!!

    The Middlesbrough local by election result is a stunning victory for the Tories, The FIRST Tory councillor EVER in Middlesbrough..

    Are you sure? I thought the factoid applied only to that particular ward.

    It was an 8% swing, which towards a sitting government is impressive, but it is not as if the Tories came from nowhere to win.
    The new Cllr will be joining the existing conservative group. I think the fact is as I suggested. How impressive it is depends on how many years it is since the ward boundaries were last withdrawn. Normally they are done every 10 years or so.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    only in your head
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    tlg86 said:

    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?

    They must have taken the view that a couple of poor results would have killed the "Winning here!" narrative.... Or their phone-bank needed a week off.
    Concentrating on the forthcoming national locals. At least that is what the Leics LDs are up to. Lots of pavement pounding in target seats.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    only in your head
    No one is ever excluded from my briefings (no matter how much they might wish to be).
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222
    I see that holding their piddle in the valley didn't present the Tories with any challenge.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,843

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    Her comments are absolute rubbish, but that quote is definitely one to remember!
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    I note that today is not a day for Smithson to publish a header arguing that they are relevant.

    The lack of Lib Dem candidates is a pure coincidence.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited April 2017

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!

    Edit - no, it seems deliberate.

    However, Rayner is herself also less than honest with statsistics. The reality is of course that in only two counties (off the top of my head) have a compulsory 11-plus. In those counties (like say, Gloucestershire) which have an extensive grammar school system but where selection is not compulsory it is the pushier parents (who tend to be middle class) who put their children in for the exam, and therefore by an astonishing coincidence dominate the intake.

    The counties that should be used for statistics are Buckinghamshire and Kent, not the country as a whole.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    I note that today is not a day for Smithson to publish a header arguing that they are relevant.

    The lack of Lib Dem candidates is a pure coincidence.
    I'm sure the local election round-up will appear later as usual. In the meantime we have a thread header on what will probably be the largest political betting event of the year.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    tlg86 said:

    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?

    They must have taken the view that a couple of poor results would have killed the "Winning here!" narrative.... Or their phone-bank needed a week off.
    Quite impressed that they’ve managed to field practically a full slate in the Essex County elections. Think there’s only one seat they’re not contesting. How hard they’ll be fought we wait to see, of course. At least I’ve the opportunity to vote LD again.
    How many of them are paper candidates?
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    I note that today is not a day for Smithson to publish a header arguing that they are relevant.

    The lack of Lib Dem candidates is a pure coincidence.
    I'm sure the local election round-up will appear later as usual. .
    Maybe.

    If we do, I will of course laugh at people who think they are meaningful.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,244

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    I note that today is not a day for Smithson to publish a header arguing that they are relevant.

    The lack of Lib Dem candidates is a pure coincidence.
    I'm sure the local election round-up will appear later as usual. In the meantime we have a thread header on what will probably be the largest political betting event of the year.
    Oui mais ou est @AndyJS quand nous avons besoin de lui?
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    I'm very happy to clarify that Sean Spicer initially denied that the Nazis used chemical weapons and when subsequently pressed that he implied that German Jews weren't Germans. Let us give him the benefit of the doubt and describe him as staggeringly ignorant.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    tlg86 said:

    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?

    They must have taken the view that a couple of poor results would have killed the "Winning here!" narrative.... Or their phone-bank needed a week off.
    Quite impressed that they’ve managed to field practically a full slate in the Essex County elections. Think there’s only one seat they’re not contesting. How hard they’ll be fought we wait to see, of course. At least I’ve the opportunity to vote LD again.
    How many of them are paper candidates?
    Good question. LD’s do have a strong vote in many parts of Essex, though. Chelmsford, Colchester, Uttlesford, for example, although there’s a Ratepayer =-type party doing well in the last named.
    Incidentaly I understand..... TBH, think it was quoted here ....... that none of the Kipper Councillors are defending their seats, although an Independent first elected as a Kipper is. And UKIP aren’t standing in that seat.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
    LCD thinking, that's why comprehensives came in....
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    Exactly correct. What Spicer did wrong was to fail to realise how the mob would twist his words - and then panic when they did.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
    As a one-time grammar school pupil ...... a VERY long time ago ........ I found my experience elitist and divisive.
    Much to our concern our son has pushed his children to ‘get into’ grammar school; so far the eldest has done so and seems to be doing OK, although he now has few if any ‘local’ friends.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,244
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
    Every aspiring member of the "lower classes" who actually makes it is one voter lost to Lab.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    Exactly correct. What Spicer did wrong was to fail to realise how the mob would twist his words - and then panic when they did.
    He also forgot the number one rule: never do Hitler comparisons.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
    LCD thinking, that's why comprehensives came in....
    Also, the Secondary Moderns were failing their pupils. We forget just now unpopular Secondary Moderns were with parents whose kids got sent there.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222

    tlg86 said:

    On the local elections, I think the bigger question is, why can't the Lib Dems field candidates in seats like the ones contested yesterday?

    They must have taken the view that a couple of poor results would have killed the "Winning here!" narrative.... Or their phone-bank needed a week off.
    Quite impressed that they’ve managed to field practically a full slate in the Essex County elections. Think there’s only one seat they’re not contesting. How hard they’ll be fought we wait to see, of course. At least I’ve the opportunity to vote LD again.
    How many of them are paper candidates?
    Good question. LD’s do have a strong vote in many parts of Essex, though. Chelmsford, Colchester, Uttlesford, for example, although there’s a Ratepayer =-type party doing well in the last named.
    Incidentaly I understand..... TBH, think it was quoted here ....... that none of the Kipper Councillors are defending their seats, although an Independent first elected as a Kipper is. And UKIP aren’t standing in that seat.
    My impression from around the country is that so many of the UKIP councillors elected back in 2013 have subsequently joined other parties, or abandoned their wards (not restanding, or in a handful of cases switching to other wards), that the best UKiP can hope for is to lose half of them, even if they win all the ones they are seeking to defend. In reality I expect it will be worse and a near-wipeout is on the cards.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!

    Edit - no, it seems deliberate.

    However, Rayner is herself also less than honest with statsistics. The reality is of course that in only two counties (off the top of my head) have a compulsory 11-plus. In those counties (like say, Gloucestershire) which have an extensive grammar school system but where selection is not compulsory it is the pushier parents (who tend to be middle class) who put their children in for the exam, and therefore by an astonishing coincidence dominate the intake.

    The counties that should be used for statistics are Buckinghamshire and Kent, not the country as a whole.
    Point of information (about Bucks at least): the system is opt out, rather than opt in. It is also possible to apply from 'out of county'. It is not actually compulsory, although that is a decent short hand for the effect.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
    As a one-time grammar school pupil ...... a VERY long time ago ........ I found my experience elitist and divisive.
    Much to our concern our son has pushed his children to ‘get into’ grammar school; so far the eldest has done so and seems to be doing OK, although he now has few if any ‘local’ friends.
    I advised one family member against trying to get her daughter into the local grammar school for a number of reasons.

    However, the alternative was a comp with considerable autonomy and a full mix of abilities.

    No way would I ever advise anyone who has any other option to put their child into a state school in Bristol, with maybe two exceptions - and that hasn't changed now they are all run by academy chains, as they are making an even worse mess of things (hard though that is to believe).
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!

    Edit - no, it seems deliberate.

    However, Rayner is herself also less than honest with statsistics. The reality is of course that in only two counties (off the top of my head) have a compulsory 11-plus. In those counties (like say, Gloucestershire) which have an extensive grammar school system but where selection is not compulsory it is the pushier parents (who tend to be middle class) who put their children in for the exam, and therefore by an astonishing coincidence dominate the intake.

    The counties that should be used for statistics are Buckinghamshire and Kent, not the country as a whole.
    Point of information (about Bucks at least): the system is opt out, rather than opt in. It is also possible to apply from 'out of county'. It is not actually compulsory, although that is a decent short hand for the effect.
    Thank you - so we're down to one unless Kent has a similar system. That out of county system could skew the stats even further.

    However, even in the 1960s grammars had a reputation for middle-class dominance (deserved or not).
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    It's quite possible (although I vaguely recall something about Hitler facing a mustard gas attack in WW1 and therefore not liking chemical weapons). But it's never been a period of history that has interested me much, so I never read into it.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    I thought it was because they didnt want them used in return, young Adolf having suffered from british chemical weapons in WW1 and not enjoying the experience

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited April 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
    LCD thinking, that's why comprehensives came in....
    Also, the Secondary Moderns were failing their pupils. We forget just now unpopular Secondary Moderns were with parents whose kids got sent there.
    But even in better schools the really clever were sorted from the also rans,. My boarding school had three language streams below the 6th form
    G(German, Latin and French)) L (Latin and French) and M (French only)

    These streams were inevitably renamed. Genius, Learned and Moron.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.

    Not to go to secondary moderns.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.

    They know the Secondary Moderns provide a crap education.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.

    They know the Secondary Moderns provide a crap education.
    Precisely, so lets close grammar schools and give everybody a crap education.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    I do wonder if Melenchon will be like Clegg in 2010.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    I thought it was because they didnt want them used in return, young Adolf having suffered from british chemical weapons in WW1 and not enjoying the experience

    It really is about dancing on the head of a pin. The allies deployed 150 flamethrower tanks on D Day. Are we saying that petroleum jelly is not a chemical, or that oxidising is not a chemical reaction?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It seems it's time for the regular outing of this:

    http://app.ft.com/content/cb1e02f4-7461-3fd1-ac5d-9fd9befb20dd

    It will be ignored as usual in favour of a cascade of anecdotes of how individual pbers escaped the salt mines, went to a grammar school and are now stalwarts of the local golf club.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited April 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    A good question to which the answer is of course that it is politically unacceptable to say so.

    However, my experience of working in an LEA school controlled by Labour (in Bristol) was that they wanted everyone to fail or at least be forced to the speed of the slowest in the name of 'inclusivity'. Which is actually much worse.
    LCD thinking, that's why comprehensives came in....
    Also, the Secondary Moderns were failing their pupils. We forget just now unpopular Secondary Moderns were with parents whose kids got sent there.
    A while ago I read an article by the then President of the Royal Historical Society arguing that the whole reason comps were brought in was under the slogan 'Grammar schools for all' (i.e. the abolition of secondary moderns). Whether he was correct or not I wouldn't know, but if true that would go a long way towards explaining why the fastest rate of changeover was the Heath government of 1970-74 rather than the Wilson governments that straddled it.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.

    They know the Secondary Moderns provide a crap education.
    Precisely, so lets close grammar schools and give everybody a crap education.
    Grammars for all!
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    I thought it was because they didnt want them used in return, young Adolf having suffered from british chemical weapons in WW1 and not enjoying the experience

    It really is about dancing on the head of a pin. The allies deployed 150 flamethrower tanks on D Day. Are we saying that petroleum jelly is not a chemical, or that oxidising is not a chemical reaction?
    I've always shaken my head at what is "allowed" at war
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    edited April 2017
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!

    Edit - no, it seems deliberate.

    However, Rayner is herself also less than honest with statsistics. The reality is of course that in only two counties (off the top of my head) have a compulsory 11-plus. In those counties (like say, Gloucestershire) which have an extensive grammar school system but where selection is not compulsory it is the pushier parents (who tend to be middle class) who put their children in for the exam, and therefore by an astonishing coincidence dominate the intake.

    The counties that should be used for statistics are Buckinghamshire and Kent, not the country as a whole.
    Point of information (about Bucks at least): the system is opt out, rather than opt in. It is also possible to apply from 'out of county'. It is not actually compulsory, although that is a decent short hand for the effect.
    Thank you - so we're down to one unless Kent has a similar system. That out of county system could skew the stats even further.

    However, even in the 1960s grammars had a reputation for middle-class dominance (deserved or not).
    It is as compulsory as you are likely to get: many of the opt outs are middle class parents with ideological objections and most of the 'out of county' applicants are from pupils who live in the county but don't go to state schools.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2017
    FPT

    Some interesting things in here:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/migrationandthelabourmarketuk/2016#what-industry-and-occupations-did-non-uk-nationals-work-in

    For example 88% of the workers in the UK agricultural sector are British.

    Weren't we told that if we didn't have unrestricted immigration we would all starve ?

    :wink:

    Likewise 86% of the workers in retail / restaurants / hotels are also British.

    Makes you wonder what PretAManger's recruitment methods and employment practices are.

    There was something along a similar vein about care workers this week.

    The largest concentration of migrants is moving to London. London generally has a younger population than the rest of the country. London is the least British demographic in the country yet also has the largest number of unfilled care worker vacancies.

  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Jonathan said:

    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.

    They know the Secondary Moderns provide a crap education.
    Precisely, so lets close grammar schools and give everybody a crap education.
    Grammars for all!
    Its an undeniable fact that people have different intelligence levels and skill sets, all of those have a valuable place in society. It makes sense that the potential doctors and engineers are educated at a different level and pace than those more suited to less demanding vocations.
  • Options
    MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    Soviet propaganda ( see Katyn ). Why didn't Jerry use chemical weapons to kill Ivan in the Stalingrad impasse if he'd found them so effective in the Crimea ?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!

    Edit - no, it seems deliberate.

    However, Rayner is herself also less than honest with statsistics. The reality is of course that in only two counties (off the top of my head) have a compulsory 11-plus. In those counties (like say, Gloucestershire) which have an extensive grammar school system but where selection is not compulsory it is the pushier parents (who tend to be middle class) who put their children in for the exam, and therefore by an astonishing coincidence dominate the intake.

    The counties that should be used for statistics are Buckinghamshire and Kent, not the country as a whole.
    Point of information (about Bucks at least): the system is opt out, rather than opt in. It is also possible to apply from 'out of county'. It is not actually compulsory, although that is a decent short hand for the effect.
    Thank you - so we're down to one unless Kent has a similar system. That out of county system could skew the stats even further.

    However, even in the 1960s grammars had a reputation for middle-class dominance (deserved or not).
    It is as compulsory as you are likely to get: many of the opt outs are middle class parents with ideological objections and most of the 'out of county' applicants are from pupils who live in the county but don't go to state schools.
    Thank you again.

    When I lived in Gloucestershire I was quite heavily involved in the 11-plus system and as it was voluntary (I think there may also be a fee to sit it, although I'm not sure of that) every child was middle class. Although I taught in Gloucester, which isn't a wealthy city, I'd guess 70% of the pupils came from Cheltenham or the Cotswolds. There were about five whose accent identified them as 'true Gloucester'.

    That doesn't seem sensible to me. Either you have selection or you don't. You shouldn't have a mish-mash. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a teacher.

    Incidentally it's also supposed to be impossible to coach children to pass the new 11-plus. I treat that claim with due scepticism but the exams have changed a lot even in the last five years. However if bright poor children never sit them anyway that's no gain.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
    Skirting round the reality, that aspirational adults want the best for their children. As a rule, poorly educated people don't see the benefit of education.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Dr. Foxinsox, that reminds me of a quibble I have with the BBC's stats (used elsewhere too) comparing the average of all state schools with grammar schools regarding income of pupils' families.

    It would be more accurate to compare, say, the top 25% of state schools. If grammar schools have a reputation for being good that will increase house prices and alter local demographics. The same will happen with good state schools.

    Comparing a number that includes incredibly rubbish schools, average schools and good schools against schools that should (in theory) only be good is not a meaningful or useful statistical approach.

    It's the broad-brush daftness that leads to the complaining about a wage gap.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
    I don't trust any 'data' from the current very limited number of grammars.

    Of course grammars will currently benefit the middle classes - they're located in largely middle class counties/areas of counties....

    Put some Grammar schools in Bootle and then we'll see some changes in this country.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably s.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    I thought it was because they didnt want them used in return, young Adolf having suffered from british chemical weapons in WW1 and not enjoying the experience

    It really is about dancing on the head of a pin. The allies deployed 150 flamethrower tanks on D Day. Are we saying that petroleum jelly is not a chemical, or that oxidising is not a chemical reaction?
    The Royal Air Force thought they were best at incendary bombing of civilians until Curtis LeMay upped the ante in Tokyo.

    The MOAB bomb in Afghanistan is an interesting weapon. It seems to be designed to send a fatal shockwave through hardened complexes and tunnels. Surely the Afghan bomb is a bit of field testing for use against the North Koreans?

    North Korea has a lot of long range artillary in bunkers. MOAB would seem to be the best counter weapon.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.

    It almost seems as though the SM’s in Kent are run down deliberately. Although one grandchild may well be going to one which has become a performing arts academy.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I've always shaken my head at what is "allowed" at war

    It never ceases to amaze me that anything as barbaric as war is considered as an solution to any political problem.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
    I don't trust any 'data' from the current very limited number of grammars.

    Of course grammars will currently benefit the middle classes - they're located in largely middle class counties/areas of counties....

    Put some Grammar schools in Bootle and then we'll see some changes in this country.
    Exactly, that is the ridiculous stance of Labour/Socialists, its the kids in their constituencies that most need a leg up yet they're consigned to at best, a mediocre education. Rather everybody fail than a few are seen to succeed. Grammars in working class towns are whats needed.

    Incidentally house prices in Dover are some of the cheapest in the SE but it has a boys and girls grammar.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2017

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
    Skirting round the reality, that aspirational adults want the best for their children. As a rule, poorly educated people don't see the benefit of education.
    This is where I started. Why don't the Tories simply say they do not want their children to be educated alongside the plebs?

    If they want grammar schools to be popular, and win them Tory votes then build them in leafy areas.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    It seems it's time for the regular outing of this:

    http://app.ft.com/content/cb1e02f4-7461-3fd1-ac5d-9fd9befb20dd

    It will be ignored as usual in favour of a cascade of anecdotes of how individual pbers escaped the salt mines, went to a grammar school and are now stalwarts of the local golf club.

    It's a staggeringly good piece of analysis, and it fundamentally changed my mind. Grammar schools boost through educational outcomes of the wealthy, and lower them for everyone else.

    I think we should spend more time looking at education systems that work for the next 80% (Germany, Switzerland and Sweden would be a good place to start), and less timing harking back to the past.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    The grammar schools in Kent are all over subscribed, parents love them. But then what do they know.

    It almost seems as though the SM’s in Kent are run down deliberately. Although one grandchild may well be going to one which has become a performing arts academy.
    Call them what you like, the Acadamies near me aren't pulling up any trees.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    However, Rayner is herself also less than honest with statsistics. The reality is of course that in only two counties (off the top of my head) have a compulsory 11-plus. In those counties (like say, Gloucestershire) which have an extensive grammar school system but where selection is not compulsory it is the pushier parents (who tend to be middle class) who put their children in for the exam, and therefore by an astonishing coincidence dominate the intake.
    Point of information (about Bucks at least): the system is opt out, rather than opt in. It is also possible to apply from 'out of county'. It is not actually compulsory, although that is a decent short hand for the effect.
    Thank you - so we're down to one unless Kent has a similar system. That out of county system could skew the stats even further.

    However, even in the 1960s grammars had a reputation for middle-class dominance (deserved or not).
    It is as compulsory as you are likely to get: many of the opt outs are middle class parents with ideological objections and most of the 'out of county' applicants are from pupils who live in the county but don't go to state schools.
    Thank you again.

    When I lived in Gloucestershire I was quite heavily involved in the 11-plus system and as it was voluntary (I think there may also be a fee to sit it, although I'm not sure of that) every child was middle class. Although I taught in Gloucester, which isn't a wealthy city, I'd guess 70% of the pupils came from Cheltenham or the Cotswolds. There were about five whose accent identified them as 'true Gloucester'.

    That doesn't seem sensible to me. Either you have selection or you don't. You shouldn't have a mish-mash. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a teacher.

    Incidentally it's also supposed to be impossible to coach children to pass the new 11-plus. I treat that claim with due scepticism but the exams have changed a lot even in the last five years. However if bright poor children never sit them anyway that's no gain.
    There’s certainly coaching in Kent. Whether it was effective three years when one grandchild took it, or whether he’d have got in anyway, who can tell? We were given the impression that it made a difference with both grandchildren; second one just ‘failed’ but apparently because of the way a ‘pass' is determined.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    Soviet propaganda ( see Katyn ). Why didn't Jerry use chemical weapons to kill Ivan in the Stalingrad impasse if he'd found them so effective in the Crimea ?
    Because the Russians weren't in an enclosed tunnel system in Stalingrad?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    He makes SO sound like an eternal optimist!
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    edited April 2017

    I've always shaken my head at what is "allowed" at war

    It never ceases to amaze me that anything as barbaric as war is considered as an solution to any political problem.
    Ain't that so. Unfortunately a % of the population sees violence as a solution, it amazes me that alleged intelligent people see bombs as an extension of fisticuffs in the playground or pub car park.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    I see that today is not a day to argue that parish council by-elections are irrelevant.

    Quite so
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mrs C, it's more astounding that peace is ever allowed to break out.

    Just look at the history of the human race. Or consider the relative fame of Julius Caesar and Antoninus Pius. Practically everybody's heard of the former, practically nobody of the latter. The former was embroiled in massive wars and got murdered. The latter inherited a pretty peaceful empire, left it the same way, and had a peaceful transition from his reign to that of Lucius Verus and Marcus Aurelius.

    Dr. Foxinsox, interesting point on the Washpot [Stephen Fry wrote a book entitled 'Moab is my washpot'. I tried reading a little but the endlessly meandering annoyed me within three sentences].
  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
    Skirting round the reality, that aspirational adults want the best for their children. As a rule, poorly educated people don't see the benefit of education.
    This is where I started. Why don't the Tories simply say they do not want their children to be educated alongside the plebs?

    If they want grammar schools to be popular, and win them Tory votes then build them in leafy areas.
    QTWTAI because you're talking bollocks.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
    Skirting round the reality, that aspirational adults want the best for their children. As a rule, poorly educated people don't see the benefit of education.
    This is where I started. Why don't the Tories simply say they do not want their children to be educated alongside the plebs?

    If they want grammar schools to be popular, and win them Tory votes then build them in leafy areas.
    No idea, I'm not a Conservative.

    Working class parents (I don't mean middle class luvvies) love grammar schools, Labour should pledge to create one in every one of the seats they win.

    Working class people aren't afraid of competition and failure, they live with it all their lives, its the poncy middle classes that are squeamish.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!

    Edit - no, it seems deliberate.

    However, Rayner is herself also less than honest with statsistics. The reality is of course that in only two counties (off the top of my head) have a compulsory 11-plus. In those counties (like say, Gloucestershire) which have an extensive grammar school system but where selection is not compulsory it is the pushier parents (who tend to be middle class) who put their children in for the exam, and therefore by an astonishing coincidence dominate the intake.

    The counties that should be used for statistics are Buckinghamshire and Kent, not the country as a whole.
    Point of information (about Bucks at least): the system is opt out, rather than opt in. It is also possible to apply from 'out of county'. It is not actually compulsory, although that is a decent short hand for the effect.
    Thank you - so we're down to one unless Kent has a similar system. That out of county system could skew the stats even further.

    However, even in the 1960s grammars had a reputation for middle-class dominance (deserved or not).
    It is as compulsory as you are likely to get: many of the opt outs are middle class parents with ideological objections and most of the 'out of county' applicants are from pupils who live in the county but don't go to state schools.
    Thank you again.

    When I lived in Gloucestershire I was quite heavily involved in the 11-plus system and as it was voluntary (I think there may also be a fee to sit it, although I'm not sure of that) every child was middle class. Although I taught in Gloucester, which isn't a wealthy city, I'd guess 70% of the pupils came from Cheltenham or the Cotswolds. There were about five whose accent identified them as 'true Gloucester'.

    That doesn't seem sensible to me. Either you have selection or you don't. You shouldn't have a mish-mash. But hey, what do I know? I'm just a teacher.

    Incidentally it's also supposed to be impossible to coach children to pass the new 11-plus. I treat that claim with due scepticism but the exams have changed a lot even in the last five years. However if bright poor children never sit them anyway that's no gain.
    No exam is truly 'coach proof' but the new one requires actual teaching of useful skills rather than memorising patterns that could get you through the old one.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    I've always shaken my head at what is "allowed" at war

    It never ceases to amaze me that anything as barbaric as war is considered as an solution to any political problem.
    In a horrific scenario, sometimes it might be the least worst option. Which is not to say most war co es down to that.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    It seems it's time for the regular outing of this:

    http://app.ft.com/content/cb1e02f4-7461-3fd1-ac5d-9fd9befb20dd

    It will be ignored as usual in favour of a cascade of anecdotes of how individual pbers escaped the salt mines, went to a grammar school and are now stalwarts of the local golf club.

    I'm sorry my back story offends you. But it is the only one I have.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    The Nazis did use chemical weapons against a Soviet tunnel complex in the aftermath of the battle of the Kerch peninsula in 1942.

    The main reasons the Nazis did not use chemical weapons were because chemical weapons did not suit their war of manoeuvre system, not scruples about international conventions.

    Soviet propaganda ( see Katyn ). Why didn't Jerry use chemical weapons to kill Ivan in the Stalingrad impasse if he'd found them so effective in the Crimea ?
    Because the Russians weren't in an enclosed tunnel system in Stalingrad?
    The reality is that gas weapons are only useful against fortifications that the attacking army wants to eliminate without occupying, and in open areas where the agent can disperse or be avoided. This is the reason that they were used in the trenches of WW1, and in practice they were not a wonder weapon there. They simply have little military utility.
  • Options
    HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    My mother went to grammar school and she was from a very working class background, it was that event that moved her side of the family up into the lower middle class really. As a result she thinks they are a great idea, as long as the secondary moderns aren't neglected.....But this is what tends to happen.
  • Options
    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    I've always shaken my head at what is "allowed" at war

    It never ceases to amaze me that anything as barbaric as war is considered as an solution to any political problem.
    Peoples that agreee with you tend to end up conquered by peoples that don't...
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    rcs1000 said:

    It seems it's time for the regular outing of this:

    http://app.ft.com/content/cb1e02f4-7461-3fd1-ac5d-9fd9befb20dd

    It will be ignored as usual in favour of a cascade of anecdotes of how individual pbers escaped the salt mines, went to a grammar school and are now stalwarts of the local golf club.

    It's a staggeringly good piece of analysis, and it fundamentally changed my mind. Grammar schools boost through educational outcomes of the wealthy, and lower them for everyone else.

    I think we should spend more time looking at education systems that work for the next 80% (Germany, Switzerland and Sweden would be a good place to start), and less timing harking back to the past.
    in England education is simply class war by other means
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,843
    edited April 2017

    Mortimer said:

    ydoethur said:

    A great quote from Angela Rayner in here: "This is a classic case of policy based evidence making"


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/justine-greening-removes-poorest-children-from-statistics-justifying-grammar-schools-2017-4

    That must be a Freudian slip given who it came from!
    Some seriously dodgy data manipulation by Greening though.

    Why cannot Tories simply be honest and say that they want more Grammar schools because upper middle class people don't want to be educated alongside the plebs? Why do they have to pretend that they are doing the plebs a favour?
    Balls. Comps allow selection by house price, Grammars at least allow those whose ability suggests they will most benefit from it it a leg up.

    Why do opponents of grammar schools delight in painting social concern as elitism? And why do they use such objectionable terms when doing it?
    Well actually the evidence does not show that.

    https://theconversation.com/grammar-schools-why-academic-selection-only-benefits-the-very-affluent-74189

    "Let’s look at two children – one from the poorest SES quintile and one from the least deprived SES quintile – both performing at the 80th percentile of the Key Stage 2 distribution. Despite the same level of academic attainment, our analysis shows that the most deprived pupil has only a 25% chance of attending a grammar compared to a 70% chance for the least deprived pupil."
    Skirting round the reality, that aspirational adults want the best for their children. As a rule, poorly educated people don't see the benefit of education.
    This is where I started. Why don't the Tories simply say they do not want their children to be educated alongside the plebs?

    If they want grammar schools to be popular, and win them Tory votes then build them in leafy areas.
    No idea, I'm not a Conservative.

    Working class parents (I don't mean middle class luvvies) love grammar schools, Labour should pledge to create one in every one of the seats they win.

    Working class people aren't afraid of competition and failure, they live with it all their lives, its the poncy middle classes that are squeamish.
    :+1:

    I find it quite amazing that so many in Labour, having taken advantage of grammar schools for themselves (and often their own kids), seem determined to pull up the ladder behind them.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,016

    It seems it's time for the regular outing of this:

    http://app.ft.com/content/cb1e02f4-7461-3fd1-ac5d-9fd9befb20dd

    It will be ignored as usual in favour of a cascade of anecdotes of how individual pbers escaped the salt mines, went to a grammar school and are now stalwarts of the local golf club.

    I'm sorry my back story offends you. But it is the only one I have.
    I'm particularly impressed by the way they still invite you back to the club after you cancelled your membership because it's 'in their interests'.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Arguably rising interest rates will be good for the private equity industry.

    Valuations are stratospheric on a wave of cheap money. Any fool can make money paying up for quality assets with debt.

    Rising interest rates will make that harder - and sort the sheep from the goats

    (BTW, given Jon's track record - CityPost, Jaeger, etc - why do people quote him as some sort of expert?)
    I think of Mr Meeks as PB.s very own Sean Spicer
    I post a link of a Leaver unhappy about the consequences of leaving with a factual four word description and I get likened to a holocaust denier.

    That escalated quickly.
    I'm not convinced that libelling the White House Press Secretary is a wise move.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2017/04/daniel-hannan-spicer-didnt-deny-the-holocaust-but-the-twitter-mob-simply-doesnt-care.html
    It is also probably a correct factual statement although definitely incautious!

    There is a good argument that Zyklon B, etc, as used by Hitler were not "chemical weapons" in that they were not used on a battlefield. Instead they were chemicals used to commit mass murder. A fine distinction, but an important one - rather like the UK government treating the PIRA as murderers rather than terrorists.
    Exactly correct. What Spicer did wrong was to fail to realise how the mob would twist his words - and then panic when they did.
    His only job is to be good with words.
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