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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What ‘good’ will look like for the parties in this year’s May

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited April 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » What ‘good’ will look like for the parties in this year’s May elections

The expectations game is an unavoidable part of politics and one that pundits and practitioners play with relish. It is, of course, such an intrinsic part of betting that it’s difficult to meaningfully isolate betting from expectations.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    CyanCyan Posts: 1,262
    First.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Second - for insomniacs everywhere!
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Insomniac: someone who gets too much sleep. [well, that's my wife's definition when I complain about not being able to sleep]
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222
    Fourth like Scottish Labour
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222
    Labour is in the almost unprecedented position of being unable to go round talking down their prospects prior to the results!

    UKIP will be lucky not to be wiped out. Relatively few of their Cllrs appear to be mounting credible defences in the first place.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Seventh like Plaid Cymru!
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    David, many thanks for this very informative guide to the upcoming elections and the various possible implications of the results for all parties.

    'the 2017 Scottish local elections are the last set in which the SNP can make sizable gains, which after 2015 and 2016, is the minimum expected. Salmond talked about gaining Glasgow in 2012; his successor should pull off the feat. That alone would make for a good night, though outside Scotland few will notice the detail, particularly as the STV system means not that many seats will change compared with FPTP, and most councils will end up NOC anyway.'

    It is worth pointing out that its now been six years since Scotland last held local council elections, and they were last held at the same time that the SNP gained their historic majority win at Holyrood in 2011. More importantly, that was over three years before the Independence Referendum was held.

    To say that a week can be a long time in politics is an understatement when you consider just how the political landscape in Scotland has changed in the last six years. There is absolutely no doubt that the SNP are totally focussed on finally gaining control of Glasgow Council after they routed SLab in the city in the 2015 and 2016 GE and Holyrood elections. Anything less than gaining full control of Glasgow City Council should be seen as yet another set back personally for Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP Government following their failure to retain their majority at Holyrood last year.



  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited April 2017
    felix said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.

    By good arguments you presumably mean you agree with its general tenor because there is hardly an argument in it. The dirty little secret of the NHS is not that it is particularly good but that it is particularly cheap. The American government -- the government, not the people or insurance companies -- spends more on healthcare than does ours. So does Germany and the other European countries mentioned in the article.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,222
    edited April 2017
    felix said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.

    To be honest it reads as more of a polemic than an argument. Like one of those columns where the writer starts with nothing other than an eye-cathing conclusion in mind. I am sure there is a lot we can learn from other healthcare systems - indeed much of the improvement in cancer and heart attack survival rates of recent years has learned from the continent. This doesn't (necessarily) justify the title of this article.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    felix said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.

    By good arguments you presumably mean you agree with its general tenor because there is hardly an argument in it. The dirty little secret of the NHS is not that it is particularly good but that it is particularly cheap. The American government -- the government, not the people or insurance companies -- spends more on healthcare than does ours. So does Germany and the other European countries mentioned in the article.
    There is a lot wrong with the NHS, and there are some very valid alternatives particularly in parts of Continental Europe. One of many ways that the we could have a better country by becoming more European.

    Money is an issue, but not the only one. Britons also lead much less healthy lifestyles than our European neighbours. We are fatter, lazier, and less willing to do what professionals say. Healthcare systems have evolved alongside other aspects of society and the NHS reflects that as much as anywhere else. It doesn't mean that it is unchangeable, but it does mean that the change has to be alongside other aspects of society. Social expectations of what the health care system should do need to change first.

    The other big problem is training and recruitment of staff. Governments of all hues have found it convenient to retrict access and control costs by not training enough doctors, nurses and other professionals and not treating staff well enough to keep them. We do recruit heavily abroad, but that flow has gone into reverse with Brexit. The oft stated greivance about not getting a scan the same or next day is principally a problem of staff retention.

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    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    fitalass said:

    David, many thanks for this very informative guide to the upcoming elections and the various possible implications of the results for all parties.

    'the 2017 Scottish local elections are the last set in which the SNP can make sizable gains, which after 2015 and 2016, is the minimum expected. Salmond talked about gaining Glasgow in 2012; his successor should pull off the feat. That alone would make for a good night, though outside Scotland few will notice the detail, particularly as the STV system means not that many seats will change compared with FPTP, and most councils will end up NOC anyway.'

    It is worth pointing out that its now been six years since Scotland last held local council elections, and they were last held at the same time that the SNP gained their historic majority win at Holyrood in 2011. More importantly, that was over three years before the Independence Referendum was held.

    To say that a week can be a long time in politics is an understatement when you consider just how the political landscape in Scotland has changed in the last six years. There is absolutely no doubt that the SNP are totally focussed on finally gaining control of Glasgow Council after they routed SLab in the city in the 2015 and 2016 GE and Holyrood elections. Anything less than gaining full control of Glasgow City Council should be seen as yet another set back personally for Nicola Sturgeon and her SNP Government following their failure to retain their majority at Holyrood last year.

    Last Scottish local elections were in 2012, not 2011. Apparently they aren't supposed to clash with the Scottish Parliament elections, and the knock on effect of the Scottish Parliament elections now effectively happening every five years to avoid clashing with the UK General Election (one of the additional unfortunate consequences of the Fixed Term Parliament act) means that Scottish local elections now appear to have become every 5 years as well (at least until something happens to break the 5 year UK Parliament electoral cycle)

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Excellent background, David.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    felix said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.

    By good arguments you presumably mean you agree with its general tenor because there is hardly an argument in it. The dirty little secret of the NHS is not that it is particularly good but that it is particularly cheap. The American government -- the government, not the people or insurance companies -- spends more on healthcare than does ours. So does Germany and the other European countries mentioned in the article.
    There is a lot wrong with the NHS, and there are some very valid alternatives particularly in parts of Continental Europe. One of many ways that the we could have a better country by becoming more European.

    Money is an issue, but not the only one. Britons also lead much less healthy lifestyles than our European neighbours. We are fatter, lazier, and less willing to do what professionals say. Healthcare systems have evolved alongside other aspects of society and the NHS reflects that as much as anywhere else. It doesn't mean that it is unchangeable, but it does mean that the change has to be alongside other aspects of society. Social expectations of what the health care system should do need to change first.

    The other big problem is training and recruitment of staff. Governments of all hues have found it convenient to retrict access and control costs by not training enough doctors, nurses and other professionals and not treating staff well enough to keep them. We do recruit heavily abroad, but that flow has gone into reverse with Brexit. The oft stated greivance about not getting a scan the same or next day is principally a problem of staff retention.

    The papers today have stories of locums on £95 an hour and £3,500 a shift. As in education, so in health: the government has been so busy posturing and reorganising that it's forgotten the basics, leading to staff and bed shortages.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.

    By good arguments you presumably mean you agree with its general tenor because there is hardly an argument in it. The dirty little secret of the NHS is not that it is particularly good but that it is particularly cheap. The American government -- the government, not the people or insurance companies -- spends more on healthcare than does ours. So does Germany and the other European countries mentioned in the article.

    felix said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.

    By good arguments you presumably mean you agree with its general tenor because there is hardly an argument in it. The dirty little secret of the NHS is not that it is particularly good but that it is particularly cheap. The American government -- the government, not the people or insurance companies -- spends more on healthcare than does ours. So does Germany and the other European countries mentioned in the article.
    Maybe you should try reading it again - it's not just about the money. Never has been. Until people get this and move on from the hero worship it'll never get better. It is a mess of restrictive practices and run too much in the interests of doctors and too little for the customers.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited April 2017
    Mrs JackW is expected to make considerable gains in May ....

    And her husband corresponding losses. Twas ever thus .... :sweat:
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,919
    edited April 2017
    JackW said:

    Mrs JackW is expected to make considerable gains in May ....

    And her husband corresponding losses. Twas ever thus .... :sweat:

    But Jack, don’t you want your wife looking smart and attractive?
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: final practice is from 1-2pm so the pre-qualifying article should be up probably between 2.30-3pm.

    On-topic: Comrade Herdson, order yourself a marzipan hat for the inevitable humiliation you will face come polling day! As if Chairman Corbyn could lose votes. He is prepared for any propaganda attack launched from the armada of lickspittle capitalist media organisations!

    The parade of unwavering support for the Supreme Leader will go on in anticipated magnificence!
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    Yes that's true but as much as I would prefer a Tory Govt to a Labour one, the Country needs a decent opposition to rein in the more loony ideas that will inevitably rear their heads if untrammelled power is exercised. We need Labour to be gallant losers .
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    Speaking about Wales, which I know about the best, these would be the definitions of success for the various parties:

    Labour Excellent Night: Any net gains and gaining control of Carmarthenshire
    Labour Average Night: No more than 57 net losses and losing control of only Cardiff
    Labour Bad Night: No more than 114 net losses and losing Cardiff and Swansea
    Labour Horrific Night: No more than 171 net losses, losing Cardiff, Swansea, Newport
    Labour Disaster Area: More than 171 net losses and ending up with no councils under majority control

    Plaid Cymru Excellent Night: More than 64 net gains, gaining control of Ynys Môn, Gwynedd, Ceredigion, Carmarthenshire and Rhondda
    Plaid Cymru Average Night: More than 48 net gains, gaining control of Ynys Môn, Gwynedd, Ceredigion and Carmarthenshire
    Plaid Cymru Bad Night: More than 32 net gains, gaining control of Ynys Môn, Gwynedd and Ceredigion
    Plaid Cymru Horrific Night: More than 16 net gains, gaining control of gaining control of Ynys Môn and Gwynedd
    Plaid Cymru Disaster Area: Any net losses and losing lead party status in Gwynedd and Ceredigion

    Conservative Excellent Night: More than 40 net gains, gaining control of Vale of Glamorgan
    Conservative Average Night: More than 30 net gains, becoming largest party on Vale of Glamorgan
    Conservative Bad Night: More than 20 net gains, no change in status
    Conservative Horrific Night: More than 10 net gains, no change in status
    Conservative Disaster Area: No change in seats, no change in status

    Liberal Democrats Excellent Night: More than 28 net gains, gaining control of Cardiff and Swansea
    Liberal Democrats Average Night: More than 21 net gains, gaining control of Cardiff
    Liberal Democrats Bad Night: More than 14 net gains
    Liberal Democrats Horrific Night: No gains at all
    Liberal Democrat Disaster Area: Any net losses
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    felix said:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nhs-overrated-system-private-healthcare-america-inefficient-developing-world-a7683541.html

    Surprising to see from this outlet. However, the article has a lot of good arguments.

    By good arguments you presumably mean you agree with its general tenor because there is hardly an argument in it. The dirty little secret of the NHS is not that it is particularly good but that it is particularly cheap. The American government -- the government, not the people or insurance companies -- spends more on healthcare than does ours. So does Germany and the other European countries mentioned in the article.
    The NHS is great at emergency and critical care. It's pretty soul destroying for chronic care.

    And it is cheap.

    But it is stuck in the past, and way too big and complex to manage effectively. It needs serious reform - we could deliver so much more with the money that we have available.

    But that needs political parties to cooperate effectively and try to work out a new plan to create a healthcare system that is optimised for the 21st century
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    Point of pedantry.

    Thd Tories lost a majority of over 23,000 in the Christchurch by-election of 1993.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Mrs JackW is expected to make considerable gains in May ....

    And her husband corresponding losses. Twas ever thus .... :sweat:

    But Jack, don’t you want your wife looking smart and attractive?
    Did not Mr Caveman find Mrs Caveman a ravishing beauty without the lady venturing down Bond Street?

    Where's my club .... :smile:
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited April 2017

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,129
    For reasons discussed at the time that the Railings and Thatcher forecast came out 50 Labour losses in England looks very light to me. On the other hand I think that Labour polling in the "low teens" in Scotland will prove slightly pessimistic. I would expect the upper teens myself. I think their losses in Scotland will be in the order of 150 rather than 200 because they still get a benefit from their vote being quite focussed.

    In contrast the Scottish Tories have generally had their vote spread more thinly and even with an STV system this brings down the return in Councillors. It will be an interesting sub plot whether the expected Tory lead over Labour in Scotland in the share of the vote actually produces more councillors. I expect it to be very close.

    In 2012 the SNP got 32% of the vote. They will exceed that by a substantial margin this time, probably in the low 40s. These results will consolidate their position as the dominant party in Scottish politics and the Tories as the somewhat distant opposition. It is a remarkable achievement for a party that has been in power for so long but it is mainly achieved by keeping their eyes on the prize of independence at the price of neglecting day to day governance. Only when Scotland wearies of this neverendum will their dominance falter and that has not happened yet.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was w golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    Brown was a disaster not only as Chancellor but as PM... On the surface it was portrayed as calm, but in the background Brown was doing his dirty work . That why Labour has no decent leaders any more.


    Your belief of Browns benevolence is is mystifying. Most people get very angry when they think of what Brown did.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    edited April 2017
    Mr. Jonathan, hmm.

    Well, let's see. New Labour gave us incompetent and uneven devolution which has led to a referendum on Scottish independence, with another being asked for now.

    They gave use* the worst recession in history.

    Brown reneged upon a manifesto promise to hold a referendum on Lisbon.

    The race card was played against anyone who wasn't culturally sensitive enough, which worked wonderfully in Rotherham.

    Blair and Brown sowed the seeds of discontent, the harvest being largely reaped (Brown's economic incompetence aside) when they were out of office.

    That said, I remain unconvinced by May. But when the alternative is a 'friend of Hamas', that's no alternative at all.

    Edited extra bit: us*.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    Wow, your Labourite loyalties know no bounds....
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
    Altogether: 'oh yes we have!' :smiley:

    More seriously I would expect peak Nat to be around 2018-19. After that there will be too many awkward domestic questions about their record in government and the beahviour of their members for them to rise much higher, and independence will either have been achieved or brushed off the table for good. This may therefore be their peak year in terms of electoral results.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Point of pedantry.

    Thd Tories lost a majority of over 23,000 in the Christchurch by-election of 1993.

    Zac was defending a majority of 23k
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Hang on, what (didn't) happen?

    Listening to some of you last night I thought there would be at least one mushroom cloud on the horizon........
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,962
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
    Be fair, peak Nat has been predicted by Yoon hacks yearly since 2007. Why should their wee fanboys know any better?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    If an arsonist sets fire to my house and then bravely battles to put the fire out successfully, I will be more annoyed about the first part than pleased about the second. That is why Gordon Brown's handling of the banking crisis in this country he had done more than anyone else to cause is not considered a Good Thing.

    As for budgets unravelling, 10p tax band springs to mind. That unravelled within six hours but it took Brown a year to actually do anything about it.

    Near pariah status is a silly exaggeration. We are unpopular with the European Commission, a bunch of failed crackpots whose leader appears drunk in public and greets his fellow right wing political leaders with the Nazi salute. Theresa May is (unfortunately too literally) hand in hand with Donald Trump, a funny way of looking like a pariah.

    And then, when even Labour's saner and more intelligent members such as yourself talk like this, they wonder why nobody wants to vote for them.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Point of pedantry.

    Thd Tories lost a majority of over 23,000 in the Christchurch by-election of 1993.

    Zac was defending a majority of 23k
    Zac was an independent. David was talking of Government and Opposition parties.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Top tip.

    Don't suggest the country in which everyone you need to vote for you lives is nearing pariah status.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,019
    https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/853139514373656577

    And from the horses mouth:

    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_health.html

    FACT
    EU rules have weakened safety checks on doctors making patients less safe and have held back cancer research

    FACT
    The EU is taking more control of the NHS and forcing more privatisation

    FACT
    Labour MPs have warned that EU proposals could lead to the ‘demise of the publicly-funded National Health Service’
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
    Altogether: 'oh yes we have!' :smiley:

    More seriously I would expect peak Nat to be around 2018-19. After that there will be too many awkward domestic questions about their record in government and the beahviour of their members for them to rise much higher, and independence will either have been achieved or brushed off the table for good. This may therefore be their peak year in terms of electoral results.
    I doubt that , only way they will go backwards is if their is a miracle with Labour. Tories will never ever govern in Scotland so unless labour rise from the dead . So independence or not they will be in power a long time, they are very very popular and they have no competition. Labour will take 10-20 years to recover at best assuming they ever do.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372

    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: final practice is from 1-2pm so the pre-qualifying article should be up probably between 2.30-3pm.

    On-topic: Comrade Herdson, order yourself a marzipan hat for the inevitable humiliation you will face come polling day! As if Chairman Corbyn could lose votes. He is prepared for any propaganda attack launched from the armada of lickspittle capitalist media organisations!

    The parade of unwavering support for the Supreme Leader will go on in anticipated magnificence!

    Good morning, Pyongyang !

    Morning, Mr.D.

    Remember that the large temperature differences make final practice a slightly less than reliable guide to qualifying, particularly as Mercedes reputedly still don't like the heat.
    I see Raikkonen has taken a new engine; perhaps not ideal so early on. I wouldn't like to see Ferrari or Vettel's title challenge clobbered by mechanical problems.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Pariah status is a little bit harsh. With Boris as Foreign Minister, and the other two stooges, laughing stock is a better description.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. B, was unaware of the engine change. Of course, a man with a few pounds on Red Bull for the Constructors' at 46 might welcome mechanical woe for the top two teams...

    Agree entirely on first and third practice not being much use. Red Bull looked surprisingly swift in the second session.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Things are a hell of a lot better now than when Gordon Brown ceased to be PM.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
    Altogether: 'oh yes we have!' :smiley:

    More seriously I would expect peak Nat to be around 2018-19. After that there will be too many awkward domestic questions about their record in government and the beahviour of their members for them to rise much higher, and independence will either have been achieved or brushed off the table for good. This may therefore be their peak year in terms of electoral results.
    Peak Nat in 2018-19 probably suits the SNP very well as it will coincide with Indyref 2.

    After independence their job will be done and I would expect a realignment along a left/right axis of several nationalist parties.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/853139514373656577

    And from the horses mouth:

    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_health.html

    FACT
    EU rules have weakened safety checks on doctors making patients less safe and have held back cancer research

    FACT
    The EU is taking more control of the NHS and forcing more privatisation

    FACT
    Labour MPs have warned that EU proposals could lead to the ‘demise of the publicly-funded National Health Service’

    am I right in thinking that not only have Labour privatised more of the NHS than the Tories ever did, but that PFI is crucifying the NHS, another Brown blunder of epic proportions that we will be paying for over the next 20 yrs or so.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.

    The Tories used to talk about broken Britain and Britain being a Third World country when they were in opposition. It's what happens.

    Being critical of government policy and action is not the same as talking Britain down. Boris Johnson's absolute incapacity to represent the UK competently and effectively abroad is more damaging to this country's interests than anything an irrelevance from the Labour party can say. Likewise, when cabinet ministers like Liam Fox's assert that we share values with a murderous thug like the President of the Philippines that does more harm to perceptions of us abroad than anything written by a left-wing journalist in a UK newspaper.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Pariah status is a little bit harsh. With Boris as Foreign Minister, and the other two stooges, laughing stock is a better description.
    Some of it is beyond a joke.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Things are a hell of a lot better now than when Gordon Brown ceased to be PM.
    The total incompetence of Corbyn's Labour does make May's government lokk good, but the reality is that there are problems brewing all across the board, and not just relating to Brexit.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
    Be fair, peak Nat has been predicted by Yoon hacks yearly since 2007. Why should their wee fanboys know any better?
    Peak Nat is entirely linked to the fortunes of the shining PATH -

    Planned Ayrshire Turnip Harvest
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822

    <

    Zac was an independent. David was talking of Government and Opposition parties.

    Come on, Mark. That's pedantry and you know it.

    Why did the Conservatives refuse to stand a candidate in Richmond Park ? Did they not think the local electorate was entitled to support the Government view of being pro-Heathrow ?

    The cynic might argue the absence of a Conservative candidate enabled Conservative activists to go and work for Goldsmith as they wouldn't be actively campaigning against a Conservative candidate because there wasn't one.

    This is obfuscation - the Conservatives would have been more than happy if Zac had won and would in time have re-admitted him to the fold. Richmond Park stands as the only serious electoral setback the Conservatives have suffered under May's leadership (so far).
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited April 2017
    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Things are a hell of a lot better now than when Gordon Brown ceased to be PM.
    Strongly disagree. Britain is more divided and isolated. A nation uncertain and ill at ease. We even had a AAA rating back then.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Things are a hell of a lot better now than when Gordon Brown ceased to be PM.
    The total incompetence of Corbyn's Labour does make May's government lokk good, but the reality is that there are problems brewing all across the board, and not just relating to Brexit.
    There always are problems. That's the nature of things.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,019
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Things are a hell of a lot better now than when Gordon Brown ceased to be PM.
    The total incompetence of Corbyn's Labour does make May's government lokk good, but the reality is that there are problems brewing all across the board, and not just relating to Brexit.
    There always are problems. That's the nature of things.
    The nature of Brexit is that there is no capacity to address any of them. This is a single-issue government.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
    Altogether: 'oh yes we have!' :smiley:

    More seriously I would expect peak Nat to be around 2018-19. After that there will be too many awkward domestic questions about their record in government and the beahviour of their members for them to rise much higher, and independence will either have been achieved or brushed off the table for good. This may therefore be their peak year in terms of electoral results.
    I doubt that , only way they will go backwards is if their is a miracle with Labour. Tories will never ever govern in Scotland so unless labour rise from the dead . So independence or not they will be in power a long time, they are very very popular and they have no competition. Labour will take 10-20 years to recover at best assuming they ever do.
    The Tories were a dominant - frequently the dominant - force in Scottish politics until the 1960s, when they suddenly collapsed and have never recovered. Labour seemed all powerful in Scotland a mere fifteen years ago, and just three years ago a majority of Scottish MPs were Labour.

    The SNP are riding high for now, but the past suggests that even a monopoly position in Scottish politics can disappear both quickly and unexpectedly.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    GeoffM said:

    Second - for insomniacs everywhere!

    Must be the fear of war with Spain keeping you awake.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/853139514373656577

    And from the horses mouth:

    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_health.html

    FACT
    EU rules have weakened safety checks on doctors making patients less safe and have held back cancer research

    FACT
    The EU is taking more control of the NHS and forcing more privatisation

    FACT
    Labour MPs have warned that EU proposals could lead to the ‘demise of the publicly-funded National Health Service’

    Does that photograph stir memories of the countless hours you yourself put in manning the campaign phones, what with this all being so important to you and everything?

    And does it ever get more LOLtastic than Labour complaining about large-scale misrepresentations about the NHS during political campaigns?
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.

    The Tories used to talk about broken Britain and Britain being a Third World country when they were in opposition. It's what happens.

    Being critical of government policy and action is not the same as talking Britain down. Boris Johnson's absolute incapacity to represent the UK competently and effectively abroad is more damaging to this country's interests than anything an irrelevance from the Labour party can say. Likewise, when cabinet ministers like Liam Fox's assert that we share values with a murderous thug like the President of the Philippines that does more harm to perceptions of us abroad than anything written by a left-wing journalist in a UK newspaper.
    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Jonathan said:

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Things are a hell of a lot better now than when Gordon Brown ceased to be PM.
    Strongly disagree. Britain is more divided and isolated. A nation uncertain and ill at ease. We even had a AAA rating back then.
    We had to pay more on our gilts than any other AAA nation. In effect, the markets had priced in a downgrade and the only thing keeping our rating artificially afloat was the belief that Brown would be out and replaced by a government committed to sorting out public finances, which he repeatedly said he wasn't (in Brown's conduct in his last year of office I'm reminded of Reagan's claim that he wasn't worried about his deficits because they were big enough to take care of themselves).

    When it became apparent that despite the change of government it was too politically difficult for an inexperienced and not very intelligent Chancellor to sort the mess out in a shortish timeframe, that rating was rightly removed.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,372

    Mr. B, was unaware of the engine change. Of course, a man with a few pounds on Red Bull for the Constructors' at 46 might welcome mechanical woe for the top two teams...

    Agree entirely on first and third practice not being much use. Red Bull looked surprisingly swift in the second session.

    Well, Ferrari say they think they can salvage the replaced unit, so we'll have to see. Unless Red Bull's upgrade is nothing short of miraculous, I don't think they have much of a hope - though with Renault's improved engine, and big commitment to their works team, next season could see multiple contenders.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,019
    edited April 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/853139514373656577

    And from the horses mouth:

    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_health.html

    FACT
    EU rules have weakened safety checks on doctors making patients less safe and have held back cancer research

    FACT
    The EU is taking more control of the NHS and forcing more privatisation

    FACT
    Labour MPs have warned that EU proposals could lead to the ‘demise of the publicly-funded National Health Service’

    Does that photograph stir memories of the countless hours you yourself put in manning the campaign phones, what with this all being so important to you and everything?
    A 52-48 win for Remain would have been a disaster. The Eurosceptics would have had licence to send their propaganda machine into overdrive.

    Leave winning the referendum and triggering a political doomsday machine will ultimately be what finishes off any notion that leaving the EU is a good idea. Manning the campaign phones could never have that effect.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607


    The Tories used to talk about broken Britain and Britain being a Third World country when they were in opposition. It's what happens.

    Being critical of government policy and action is not the same as talking Britain down. Boris Johnson's absolute incapacity to represent the UK competently and effectively abroad is more damaging to this country's interests than anything an irrelevance from the Labour party can say. Likewise, when cabinet ministers like Liam Fox's assert that we share values with a murderous thug like the President of the Philippines that does more harm to perceptions of us abroad than anything written by a left-wing journalist in a UK newspaper.

    Having just been to the Philippines and then to Manila on business it quite clear that Duterte has the support of the people. Very much like Modi in India. We may find some of their policies distasteful but from speaking to people (in both countries) they are behind both their leaders and the policies.

    I want this country to trade more with the Philippines (and Brexit was a fairly big subject on my second visit) and a few cheap (free) words about Duterte to smooth the process helps our profile in the country. You didn't have any such problems when Osborne was wining and dining the Chinese a couple of years ago or when they got the full state visit treatment with Dave. China is a full on police state with no free elections, yet when we befriend a democratic nation suddenly it's terrible.

    Additionally most people out of the country don't give a shit what Liam Fox says or does, his comments are purely for the domestic audience of the country he is visiting. And I think we do have a lot to admire about Duterte, he was given the worst hand in all of SE Asia, now the Philippine economy is booming, there is hope for the millions of poor where under previous leaders there was absolutely fuck all.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    IanB2 said:

    Labour is in the almost unprecedented position of being unable to go round talking down their prospects prior to the results!

    UKIP will be lucky not to be wiped out. Relatively few of their Cllrs appear to be mounting credible defences in the first place.

    Labour did a great expectations job last year, and seem to be doing so again. If they dont lose 300 and gorton, they'll shrug it off.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Sean_F said:

    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    I am blown away by your lots diplomatic successes and legislative competence.
    Things are a hell of a lot better now than when Gordon Brown ceased to be PM.
    The total incompetence of Corbyn's Labour does make May's government lokk good, but the reality is that there are problems brewing all across the board, and not just relating to Brexit.
    Something is going to blow in this country.Many people have not had a wage rise in 10 years.How long can you restrict the public sector to wage freezes or 1% rises ? All the talk is of Brexit but in the real world this economy is not working for many, at some point this will manifest it self.If there is no opposition and a government complacent because of that the anger will eventually go somewhere.Many on here are smug with the current situation be smug but social unrest might be the outcome.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822
    Mortimer said:


    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    So a Labour Government can do no right and a Conservative Government can do no wrong would be your line ?

    I think many would take a more nuanced view and that entails criticism of the current Government which is perfectly reasonable in a democracy or is any criticism "talking the country down" ?

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799

    Ishmael_Z said:

    https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/853139514373656577

    And from the horses mouth:

    http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_health.html

    FACT
    EU rules have weakened safety checks on doctors making patients less safe and have held back cancer research

    FACT
    The EU is taking more control of the NHS and forcing more privatisation

    FACT
    Labour MPs have warned that EU proposals could lead to the ‘demise of the publicly-funded National Health Service’

    Does that photograph stir memories of the countless hours you yourself put in manning the campaign phones, what with this all being so important to you and everything?
    A 52-48 win for Remain would have been a disaster. The Eurosceptics would have had licence to send their propaganda machine into overdrive.

    Leave winning the referendum and triggering a political doomsday machine will ultimately be what finishes off any notion that leaving the EU is a good idea. Manning the campaign phones could never have that effect.
    'Tis but a scratch, a flesh wound."
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    stodge said:

    <

    Zac was an independent. David was talking of Government and Opposition parties.

    Come on, Mark. That's pedantry and you know it.

    Why did the Conservatives refuse to stand a candidate in Richmond Park ? Did they not think the local electorate was entitled to support the Government view of being pro-Heathrow ?

    The cynic might argue the absence of a Conservative candidate enabled Conservative activists to go and work for Goldsmith as they wouldn't be actively campaigning against a Conservative candidate because there wasn't one.

    This is obfuscation - the Conservatives would have been more than happy if Zac had won and would in time have re-admitted him to the fold. Richmond Park stands as the only serious electoral setback the Conservatives have suffered under May's leadership (so far).
    Indeed.
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    I am not sure it would be good for the tories - remember last time Labour flirted with the mad left?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. B, they were a long way off last year too, but closed the gap and edged ahead of Ferrari. Also, Red Bull has a pair of top tier drivers, whereas Raikkonen and Bottas seem significantly off the pace.

    It'll require good development and some luck, but 46 was too long, I think. Only put a few pounds on, mind.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Mortimer said:

    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    He is right though Mortimer. The only real difference this time is that the stakes are so high if it goes wrong.

    My favourite example was in about 1999 when Der Spiegel published an article taking Hague's criticism of Labour at face value - comparing the NHS to Zimbabwe, our roads to the tracks in India, using the railways with a visit to a prostitute who specialises in bondage - but then finishing the article with the comment, 'but the only thing worse than all this would be a Conservative government!'

    To quote Hamlet, 'tis sport to have an engineer hoist on his own petard.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:


    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    So a Labour Government can do no right and a Conservative Government can do no wrong would be your line ?

    I think many would take a more nuanced view and that entails criticism of the current Government which is perfectly reasonable in a democracy or is any criticism "talking the country down" ?

    No, but referring to the country in which all your voters live as having 'parish status' clearly is.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Mortimer said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    I venture to suggest you may run into some robust discourse on that statement.
    No doubt, but true nonetheless. We gone from driving the worlds response to the financial crisis to near pariah status, where about the only impact we have is to imply war on Spain. Hell, even this lots budgets unravel more quickly than they used to.
    Hahaha.

    Until and unless Labour stop talking Britain down they will never be trusted with power again.
    There are many reasons they will struggle to win soon. Talking Britain down is not one of them. 'Talking x down' is a nonsense attack used to imply any negative criticism is unfair and untrue.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    He is right though Mortimer. The only real difference this time is that the stakes are so high if it goes wrong.

    My favourite example was in about 1999 when Der Spiegel published an article taking Hague's criticism of Labour at face value - comparing the NHS to Zimbabwe, our roads to the tracks in India, using the railways with a visit to a prostitute who specialises in bondage - but then finishing the article with the comment, 'but the only thing worse than all this would be a Conservative government!'

    To quote Hamlet, 'tis sport to have an engineer hoist on his own petard.
    It's a sad sight to see Mortimer and co reduced to calling for the ref.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    stodge said:

    <

    Zac was an independent. David was talking of Government and Opposition parties.

    Come on, Mark. That's pedantry and you know it.

    Why did the Conservatives refuse to stand a candidate in Richmond Park ? Did they not think the local electorate was entitled to support the Government view of being pro-Heathrow ?

    The cynic might argue the absence of a Conservative candidate enabled Conservative activists to go and work for Goldsmith as they wouldn't be actively campaigning against a Conservative candidate because there wasn't one.

    This is obfuscation - the Conservatives would have been more than happy if Zac had won and would in time have re-admitted him to the fold. Richmond Park stands as the only serious electoral setback the Conservatives have suffered under May's leadership (so far).
    Zac was independent minded. He decided that, even though it risked losing the seat for the Government, he would send by his pledge to the voters. Noble - but the actions of a pillock.

    The fact remains, the party machinery was not available to Zac. He stood as an independent and lost as an independent. Facts, not pedantry.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    I can believe they'll do pretty well, but no more than that.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Sean_F said:

    There always are problems. That's the nature of things.

    Quite so Sean.

    The Conservative government will face most severe and mounting difficulties over the coming years but will hold the Corbyn ace as insurance and the LibDems not strong enough to mount an effective short term challenge.

    The opposition vacuum will not last for ever however. The clock is ticking, albeit the sound is more melodious at present for the Tories.



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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,289
    edited April 2017

    Point of pedantry.

    Thd Tories lost a majority of over 23,000 in the Christchurch by-election of 1993.

    Zac was defending a majority of 23k
    Zac was an independent. David was talking of Government and Opposition parties.
    That's only down to Mrs May being frit.

    You wouldn't have seen such cowardice from the real Iron Lady, Margaret Thatcher, Mrs T would have put up a candidate against Zac.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,019
    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:


    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    So a Labour Government can do no right and a Conservative Government can do no wrong would be your line ?

    I think many would take a more nuanced view and that entails criticism of the current Government which is perfectly reasonable in a democracy or is any criticism "talking the country down" ?

    No, but referring to the country in which all your voters live as having 'parish status' clearly is.
    Parish status? Isn't that how Leavers described the country's position as an EU member?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Yorkcity said:

    Something is going to blow in this country.Many people have not had a wage rise in 10 years.How long can you restrict the public sector to wage freezes or 1% rises ? All the talk is of Brexit but in the real world this economy is not working for many, at some point this will manifest it self.If there is no opposition and a government complacent because of that the anger will eventually go somewhere.Many on here are smug with the current situation be smug but social unrest might be the outcome.

    I'd be more worried economically about the private sector where there have been actual cuts and pay was often less generous to start with (pensions certainly are). They are also more vulnerable as their unions tend to be weaker and badly organised.

    However, the public sector (even though freezes still often leave them with better deals) is better organised, closer to the political centre and has the potential to cause much more disruption should they get restive.

    I just wonder how people striking to preserve pay increases and decent pensions will look to those people who have had pay cuts and their pensions utterly trashed. It's one reason why I decided not to take part in the last teacher's strike, and why I will be switching unions once the NUT has finished its takeover of the ATL.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    He is right though Mortimer. The only real difference this time is that the stakes are so high if it goes wrong.

    My favourite example was in about 1999 when Der Spiegel published an article taking Hague's criticism of Labour at face value - comparing the NHS to Zimbabwe, our roads to the tracks in India, using the railways with a visit to a prostitute who specialises in bondage - but then finishing the article with the comment, 'but the only thing worse than all this would be a Conservative government!'

    To quote Hamlet, 'tis sport to have an engineer hoist on his own petard.
    It's a sad sight to see Mortimer and co reduced to calling for the ref.
    Pointing out one of the several reasons why the left is moribund and untrusted is not calling for the ref. It is constructive criticism that might help
    You get back to being a proper opposition.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:


    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    So a Labour Government can do no right and a Conservative Government can do no wrong would be your line ?

    I think many would take a more nuanced view and that entails criticism of the current Government which is perfectly reasonable in a democracy or is any criticism "talking the country down" ?

    No, but referring to the country in which all your voters live as having 'parish status' clearly is.
    Get a dictionary. To be a pariah is to be an outcast. Now we may have done it to ourself, we may have wanted it, but wrt the EU, a pariah is precisely what we are right now. Problem is, it casts a shadow beyond the EU and our partners are wary. No point denying it. We have to fix that . And the kind of rhetoric we had about Spain does not help.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    @fitalass.. we've reached peak Nat? :D

    Oh no we haven't.
    Altogether: 'oh yes we have!' :smiley:

    More seriously I would expect peak Nat to be around 2018-19. After that there will be too many awkward domestic questions about their record in government and the beahviour of their members for them to rise much higher, and independence will either have been achieved or brushed off the table for good. This may therefore be their peak year in terms of electoral results.
    I doubt that , only way they will go backwards is if their is a miracle with Labour. Tories will never ever govern in Scotland so unless labour rise from the dead . So independence or not they will be in power a long time, they are very very popular and they have no competition. Labour will take 10-20 years to recover at best assuming they ever do.
    The Tories were a dominant - frequently the dominant - force in Scottish politics until the 1960s, when they suddenly collapsed and have never recovered. Labour seemed all powerful in Scotland a mere fifteen years ago, and just three years ago a majority of Scottish MPs were Labour.

    The SNP are riding high for now, but the past suggests that even a monopoly position in Scottish politics can disappear both quickly and unexpectedly.
    The Tories got a majority of seats in Scotland only once post war. But they didn't fully collapse until 87.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Jonathan said:

    ydoethur said:

    Mortimer said:

    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    He is right though Mortimer. The only real difference this time is that the stakes are so high if it goes wrong.

    My favourite example was in about 1999 when Der Spiegel published an article taking Hague's criticism of Labour at face value - comparing the NHS to Zimbabwe, our roads to the tracks in India, using the railways with a visit to a prostitute who specialises in bondage - but then finishing the article with the comment, 'but the only thing worse than all this would be a Conservative government!'

    To quote Hamlet, 'tis sport to have an engineer hoist on his own petard.
    It's a sad sight to see Mortimer and co reduced to calling for the ref.
    Believe me Jonathan it's a much sadder sight watching you try and defend the indefensible record of Brown's government. Because that is one of the key reasons Labour is not yet ready for power again with or without Corbyn, and you have no idea how much I want a decent opposition right now.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Point of pedantry.

    Thd Tories lost a majority of over 23,000 in the Christchurch by-election of 1993.

    Yes, that's the current record. Gorton would beat it.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,822



    Zac was independent minded. He decided that, even though it risked losing the seat for the Government, he would send by his pledge to the voters. Noble - but the actions of a pillock.

    The fact remains, the party machinery was not available to Zac. He stood as an independent and lost as an independent. Facts, not pedantry.

    Once again, as the loyal Conservative activist you are, you dodge the question.

    Why did the Conservatives not stand a candidate against Zac ? Why were the pro-Government supporters in Richmond Park denied the opportunity to vote for a Conservative candidate ?


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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Point of pedantry.

    Thd Tories lost a majority of over 23,000 in the Christchurch by-election of 1993.

    Zac was defending a majority of 23k
    The Tories weren't.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Jonathan said:

    dr_spyn said:

    Good for Labour would be unprecedented defeats followed by the resignation of Jeremy Corbyn.

    Good for other parties would be unprecedented Labour defeats followed by continuation of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership.

    Only the former is good for the Country .
    The country is still paying for the tragedy of having allowed Gordon Brown into Downing Street. While having a strong opposition is important for the Country, as long as Bed Blocker stays in charge he's preventing a re-run of that for now at least.
    The Brown era was a golden era of calm, stability and competence compared to today
    Today the deficit is less than half of what it was in the Brown era - and the vast bulk of the deficit now is interest on what was borrowed before. IE had it not been for the Brown era the deficit would be even lower today.

    You've still not learnt the lessons of the Brown era clearly.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    Jonathan said:

    Mortimer said:

    stodge said:

    Mortimer said:


    Remainers have much in common with Labour - fighting yesterday's fight with yesterday's men with little other than 'ooooh you lot are nasty and talk to nasty people'. Oh, and talking in terms like 'pariah status' is doing Britain down.

    So a Labour Government can do no right and a Conservative Government can do no wrong would be your line ?

    I think many would take a more nuanced view and that entails criticism of the current Government which is perfectly reasonable in a democracy or is any criticism "talking the country down" ?

    No, but referring to the country in which all your voters live as having 'parish status' clearly is.
    Get a dictionary. To be a pariah is to be an outcast. Now we may have done it to ourself, we may have wanted it, but wrt the EU, a pariah is precisely what we are right now. Problem is, it casts a shadow beyond the EU and our partners are wary. No point denying it. We have to fix that . And the kind of rhetoric we had about Spain does not help.
    The UK is not an outcast. Outcasts are States that other countries don't wish to trade with, or have diplomatic relations with. They're States that people don't visit or emigrate to.

    It must be very hard to see your side out of power, and led by a fool, but you spoil your case with such exaggeration.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    stodge said:

    <

    Zac was an independent. David was talking of Government and Opposition parties.

    Come on, Mark. That's pedantry and you know it.

    Why did the Conservatives refuse to stand a candidate in Richmond Park ?
    Because they would lose.

    As it is, the only people who see this as a Tory loss are ultra-partisan (to the point of being outright blinkered) Lib Dems. Exhibit A: Smithson.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    MaxPB said:


    The Tories used to talk about broken Britain and Britain being a Third World country when they were in opposition. It's what happens.

    Being critical of government policy and action is not the same as talking Britain down. Boris Johnson's absolute incapacity to represent the UK competently and effectively abroad is more damaging to this country's interests than anything an irrelevance from the Labour party can say. Likewise, when cabinet ministers like Liam Fox's assert that we share values with a murderous thug like the President of the Philippines that does more harm to perceptions of us abroad than anything written by a left-wing journalist in a UK newspaper.

    Having just been to the Philippines and then to Manila on business it quite clear that Duterte has the support of the people. Very much like Modi in India. We may find some of their policies distasteful but from speaking to people (in both countries) they are behind both their leaders and the policies.

    I want this country to trade more with the Philippines (and Brexit was a fairly big subject on my second visit) and a few cheap (free) words about Duterte to smooth the process helps our profile in the country. You didn't have any such problems when Osborne was wining and dining the Chinese a couple of years ago or when they got the full state visit treatment with Dave. China is a full on police state with no free elections, yet when we befriend a democratic nation suddenly it's terrible.

    Additionally most people out of the country don't give a shit what Liam Fox says or does, his comments are purely for the domestic audience of the country he is visiting. And I think we do have a lot to admire about Duterte, he was given the worst hand in all of SE Asia, now the Philippine economy is booming, there is hope for the millions of poor where under previous leaders there was absolutely fuck all.

    I am sure that Duterte does have the support of people in the Philippines. That does not mean we have to say we share his values. That we feel we have to in order to "smooth the process" shows exactly what kind of situation we find ourselves in. And, yes, that is noticed across the world.
This discussion has been closed.