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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Macron makes it to the final two then surely he’s the next

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited April 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If Macron makes it to the final two then surely he’s the next President of France

The above tables from the excellent Wikipedia round of of French polls tell a consistent story – whoever of those closest on the first round ends up fighting Macron then the young independent looks set to be the winner.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Glorious First :D
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,216
    edited April 2017
    Second! Unlike Corbyn.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    Third, like one of the candidates will be - but God only knows which one!
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    John Oliver on the French election - rather too much about how Le Pen is evil, but some other useful bits in there too.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hkZir1L7fSY
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    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    Long, drawn-out and complicated, thank god we don’t have Presidential elections in the UK.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    Glorious First :D

    I note a pre-emptive first strike by the forces of RobD(ear Leader)

    Lights are burning late in Bedford on an appropriate response - all options including the ultimate Con Home permanent exile are on the table. :astonished:
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,351

    Morning all.

    Long, drawn-out and complicated, thank god we don’t have Presidential elections in the UK.

    It does seem a bit silly that the candidate more popular than any one of the others might well not make it to the final round (and I'm seriously tempted to re-back him having laid the bet a while ago.

    Meanwhile, physicists create a time crystal, which some of the physicists who theorised them said wasn't possible:
    https://phys.org/news/2017-04-physicists-crystals-key-quantum-machines.html
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    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    Sandpit said:

    John Oliver on the French election - rather too much about how Le Pen is evil, but some other useful bits in there too.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hkZir1L7fSY

    "Not available in your country."
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Macron either first or second wins him the presidency. He has the sane and not a crook vote sewn up. As he is either top or neck and neck with Le Pen the 3.45 at BF for first does look good value. I can see the undecideds breaking for him.

    The French party system is well an truly smashed, at least at presidential level.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    If...
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Sandpit said:

    John Oliver on the French election - rather too much about how Le Pen is evil, but some other useful bits in there too.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hkZir1L7fSY

    "Not available in your country."
    That's what VPNs are for ...
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    MTimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    John Oliver on the French election - rather too much about how Le Pen is evil, but some other useful bits in there too.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hkZir1L7fSY

    "Not available in your country."
    That's what VPNs are for ...
    Astonishing that anyone uses the internet without one these days.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    It seems to me that there are 2 possibilities. Firstly, the French are obviously mad in large part and have devised this system to ensure the cohesiveness of the Republic by driving the minority of sane mad too. The other possibility is that Macron is a pudding and everyone's second favourite after they have enjoyed their red meat but does not excite terribly on his own. I think I marginally prefer the former explanation.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    What's going on? I thought this was the Corbyn is crap blog?
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    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    MTimT said:

    Sandpit said:

    John Oliver on the French election - rather too much about how Le Pen is evil, but some other useful bits in there too.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=hkZir1L7fSY

    "Not available in your country."
    That's what VPNs are for ...
    Technically its not what they are for, but its something you can use them to do...
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    Maybe we have the inside track that the 1,000 staff are desperate to stay in the world's finest city, and not get relocated to Wuppertal or somewhere else terminally dull....
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Maybe we have the inside track that the 1,000 staff are desperate to stay in the world's finest city, and not get relocated to Wuppertal or somewhere else terminally dull....

    And maybe our Brexit negotiating team is dumb as a bag of rocks.

    If that really is the standard of our negotiating technique, we are going to get reamed
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    Maybe we have the inside track that the 1,000 staff are desperate to stay in the world's finest city, and not get relocated to Wuppertal or somewhere else terminally dull....
    The employees can stay if they want. I hear there are jobs going at Costa Coffee. If they want to work as medicines regulators however....
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2017
    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,228
    edited April 2017
    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    You don't understand. As long as we're out, it doesn't matter what type of Leave we get.

    We'll be out. So, if we have:

    1) immigration at similar levels to those of today via a cocktail of specialist visas;

    2) regulatory equivalence which would mean ensuring our standards and regulations are subject to ongoing adherence to those made in Brussels;

    3) services, such as clearing, remaining in the UK which, in that particular respect would mean the BoE liable for bailing out EU-based financial services firms should one of them go bust;

    4) etc

    Because we'll be master of our own destiny and we'll be out.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, there's been a lot of talk of Emmanuel Macron not making the last two and very little of Marine Le Pen not making the last two. Given the polling, that's odd.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,228

    On topic, there's been a lot of talk of Emmanuel Macron not making the last two and very little of Marine Le Pen not making the last two. Given the polling, that's odd.

    Why should French voters be denied their time in the sun?
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    On topic, there's been a lot of talk of Emmanuel Macron not making the last two and very little of Marine Le Pen not making the last two. Given the polling, that's odd.

    Macron vs Fillon is the likely mechanism for that, with LePen in third. The populist bubble would have well and truly burst.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    You don't understand. As long as we're out, it doesn't matter what type of Leave we get.

    We'll be out. So, if we have:

    1) immigration at similar levels to those of today via a cocktail of specialist visas;

    2) regulatory equivalence which would mean ensuring our standards and regulations are subject to ongoing adherence to those made in Brussels;

    3) services, such as clearing, remaining in the UK which, in that particular respect would mean the BoE liable for bailing out EU-based financial services firms should one of them go bust;

    4) etc

    Because we'll be master of our own destiny and we'll be out.
    I want to leave the golf club but I still want to use the bar.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I want to leave the golf club but I still want to use the bar.

    ...and be Club Secretary...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    You don't understand. As long as we're out, it doesn't matter what type of Leave we get.

    We'll be out. So, if we have:

    1) immigration at similar levels to those of today via a cocktail of specialist visas;

    2) regulatory equivalence which would mean ensuring our standards and regulations are subject to ongoing adherence to those made in Brussels;

    3) services, such as clearing, remaining in the UK which, in that particular respect would mean the BoE liable for bailing out EU-based financial services firms should one of them go bust;

    4) etc

    Because we'll be master of our own destiny and we'll be out.
    I want to leave the golf club but I still want to use the bar.
    Some places allow that of course.

    Not in this instance I would think.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Meeks, to be fair, there was some talk of that yesterday between myself, Mr. G and Mr. rkrkrk (perhaps others too, after I left).

    It's certainly close.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    So about as accurate as his Budget predictions.

    ' Public sector net debt as a share of GDP will be 62 per cent this year, before peaking at 70 per cent in 2013-14. Because of our action today, it then begins to fall, to 69 per cent in 2014-15 and then 67 per cent in 2015-16. '

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/7846849/Budget-2010-Full-text-of-George-Osbornes-statement.html

    Public sector net debt as a share of GDP currently stands at 85.4 per cent.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/governmentpublicsectorandtaxes/publicsectorfinance/timeseries/hf6x/pusf

    That's the equivalent of approaching £400bn of over-borrowing.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899

    On topic, there's been a lot of talk of Emmanuel Macron not making the last two and very little of Marine Le Pen not making the last two. Given the polling, that's odd.

    https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/854230694754734081
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    Certainly if Macron makes the runoff he will almost certainly win, the question will be more about his margin of victory. If he is to be stopped it will probably be by Fillon knocking him out in the first round at the last minute to go to a runoff against Le Pen
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938

    On topic, there's been a lot of talk of Emmanuel Macron not making the last two and very little of Marine Le Pen not making the last two. Given the polling, that's odd.

    Macron vs Fillon is the likely mechanism for that, with LePen in third. The populist bubble would have well and truly burst.
    Not entirely, Le Pen would likely still be over 20% and it would require some of her voters to have switched to Fillon who would then have to run a nationalist, tough on security, anti immigration campaign in the runoff in order to win over Le Pen' s first round voters and have a chance of beating Macron
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    I'm still hoping for Le Pen vs fillion, as it'll be funny that after rising to be favourite for months if Macron then misses the cut, and it ends up being the two everyone thought it would be.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,216
    edited April 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Morning all.

    Long, drawn-out and complicated, thank god we don’t have Presidential elections in the UK.

    It does seem a bit silly that the candidate more popular than any one of the others might well not make it to the final round (and I'm seriously tempted to re-back him having laid the bet a while ago.

    Meanwhile, physicists create a time crystal, which some of the physicists who theorised them said wasn't possible:
    https://phys.org/news/2017-04-physicists-crystals-key-quantum-machines.html
    You can see the logic behind the system, to identity a straight choice at the end of the contest - it's basically AV but with the big difference of foreknowledge of who the final two you have to choose from will be (which tbf in a UK contest is usually obvious anyhow). But I am thinking the current situation with four candidates all very close in the final polls, introducing a significant uncertainty as to who may go out, must be unprecedented for France?

    Since consensus is that MLP can never win the final vote, from the system's point of view it would be best if two others went through to the final round, and MLP went out, allowing an actual final choice.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,216

    What's going on? I thought this was the Corbyn is crap blog?

    The lesson of the French campaign may well be that a younger Corbyn made a critical mistake in never seeking some oratorical lessons from his former friend Mr Galloway.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    kle4 said:

    I'm still hoping for Le Pen vs fillion, as it'll be funny that after rising to be favourite for months if Macron then misses the cut, and it ends up being the two everyone thought it would be.

    I'm not.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    Maybe we have the inside track that the 1,000 staff are desperate to stay in the world's finest city, and not get relocated to Wuppertal or somewhere else terminally dull....
    Tough tits they better start job hunting then. Exquisite that "leave means leave" coming back to haunt these dummies.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    Scott_P said:

    Maybe we have the inside track that the 1,000 staff are desperate to stay in the world's finest city, and not get relocated to Wuppertal or somewhere else terminally dull....

    And maybe our Brexit negotiating team is dumb as a bag of rocks.

    If that really is the standard of our negotiating technique, we are going to get reamed
    You see the three stooges leading it , the results are guaranteed.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    edited April 2017
    Bit of an odd piece from Samuel dale on uncut - bigging up the lab candidate for the West Midlands, it says electing a Tory would be electing a government stooge and cites in particular being so on the NHS.

    But is then full of little details like 'needs consent from dwp ' and 'outside the powers' of the mayoralty, including the NHS stuff. So outside of some publicity, which is not nothing, who the mayor is doesn't affect many of the issues.

    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/04/17/knife-edge-west-midlands-race-points-to-labours-future/
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    HYUFD said:

    Fillon who would then have to run a nationalist, tough on security, anti immigration campaign

    Have you listened to his campaign ?

    "Le terrorisme islamique" almost the first words he comes out with at every rally :p
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Ha Ha Ha, it is the "Leave means Leave" team that are picking up the tab, time you boys stopped dreaming.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fillon who would then have to run a nationalist, tough on security, anti immigration campaign

    Have you listened to his campaign ?

    "Le terrorisme islamique" almost the first words he comes out with at every rally :p
    Hmm, I dont speak French, but I think I might just be able to figure that one out.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    edited April 2017
    Meanwhile Le Pen makes a pitch for Melenchon voters contrasting her 'patriotism' to Macron's 'savage globalisation'
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39625509
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    Macron either first or second wins him the presidency. He has the sane and not a crook vote sewn up. As he is either top or neck and neck with Le Pen the 3.45 at BF for first does look good value. I can see the undecideds breaking for him.

    The French party system is well an truly smashed, at least at presidential level.

    The first round is about pandering to your core vote. Macron doesn't have one, which is a problem for him. He does have an idea, which is different from the others, all of which think the modern world is a problem for France, but articulate the problem in different ways. There will be at least one "stop the world, we want to get off" candidate in the second round. It depends if French voters supporting that idea can coalesce around whichever candidate that is. If they do, Macron's advantage in the second round might be less than implied by the polls noted in the header. I can't see Fillon supporters lending their votes to Melenchon and vice versa however, so Macron may come through, just by being less objectionable.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Ha Ha Ha, it is the "Leave means Leave" team that are picking up the tab, time you boys stopped dreaming.
    The lease is between the EMA and the landlord. The UK is uninvolved.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,938
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fillon who would then have to run a nationalist, tough on security, anti immigration campaign

    Have you listened to his campaign ?

    "Le terrorisme islamique" almost the first words he comes out with at every rally :p
    He would have to run that message on steroids in the runoff to win over Le Pen voters
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,216
    edited April 2017

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    Remember that the Docklands development was to be a triumph of free enterprise (although given the role of the LDDC in planning, land assembly and project management you could easily argue the role of public sector co-ordination also).

    The principal sites are mostly owned by the Canary Wharf Group, which was spun out of Olympia & York when it went under, that (Canadian) company having done much of the original development.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    chestnut said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Ha Ha Ha, it is the "Leave means Leave" team that are picking up the tab, time you boys stopped dreaming.
    The lease is between the EMA and the landlord. The UK is uninvolved.
    It will still be tagged onto UK bill, EU will not be picking up any of the bills for the UK's stupidity.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    Wikipedia said:

    Sir George Iacobescu CBE (born 9 November 1945) is the chairman and chief executive officer (CEO) of Canary Wharf Group, the London-based owners and developers of the Canary Wharf estate in London Docklands. He is one of the most successful Romanian-born businessmen

    In 2004, a majority of the company was acquired by Glick Family Investments and Morgan Stanley using an investment vehicle company called Songbird Acquisitions, which was later taken over by China Investment Corporation.

    Definitely the British government.

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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Ha Ha Ha, it is the "Leave means Leave" team that are picking up the tab, time you boys stopped dreaming.
    The lease is between the EMA and the landlord. The UK is uninvolved.
    It will still be tagged onto UK bill, EU will not be picking up any of the bills for the UK's stupidity.
    What choice do they have? The legal contract is with the europeans.
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    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Pulpstar said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    Wikipedia said:

    Sir George Iacobescu CBE (born 9 November 1945) is the chairman and chief executive officer (CEO) of Canary Wharf Group, the London-based owners and developers of the Canary Wharf estate in London Docklands. He is one of the most successful Romanian-born businessmen

    In 2004, a majority of the company was acquired by Glick Family Investments and Morgan Stanley using an investment vehicle company called Songbird Acquisitions, which was later taken over by China Investment Corporation.

    Definitely the British government.

    Can't see anything of relevance there.

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Divvie, didn't John Kerry once refer to Ed Miliband as 'Mr. Leader'?
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    edited April 2017
    To be (slightly) fair to the Minister for Brexit, his suggestion is to use the location of these EU bodies as a bargaining chip. In exchange for Britain graciously allowing the agencies to move, the EU will provide a juicy Brexit deal. In reality, of course, the EU will totally ignore Mr Davis.
    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    edited April 2017

    Mr. Divvie, didn't John Kerry once refer to Ed Miliband as 'Mr. Leader'?

    Probably just due to the odd american habit of referring to everyone by title, even when they leave office, but we do not do that, and the most common signifier we use comes at the end, so he got confused. I had thought it was Mitt Romney for some reason. Rich white guys all look the same I guess.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FF43 said:

    Macron either first or second wins him the presidency. He has the sane and not a crook vote sewn up. As he is either top or neck and neck with Le Pen the 3.45 at BF for first does look good value. I can see the undecideds breaking for him.

    The French party system is well an truly smashed, at least at presidential level.

    The first round is about pandering to your core vote. Macron doesn't have one, which is a problem for him. He does have an idea, which is different from the others, all of which think the modern world is a problem for France, but articulate the problem in different ways. There will be at least one "stop the world, we want to get off" candidate in the second round. It depends if French voters supporting that idea can coalesce around whichever candidate that is. If they do, Macron's advantage in the second round might be less than implied by the polls noted in the header. I can't see Fillon supporters lending their votes to Melenchon and vice versa however, so Macron may come through, just by being less objectionable.
    Macron seems to draw a crowd. A full Bercy arena last night.

    https://twitter.com/Pierre_Benjamin/status/853978441154252800
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. kle4, in retrospect, I think you're right.

    In my defence, Kerry and Romney aren't hugely dissimilar.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    All this posturing reinforces that we need to leave the EU as soon as possible. They clearly need us far more than we need them.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    F1: hmm. I don't have the money to do this, but Hamilton and Vettel have title prices on Betfair of 1.94 and 2.5.

    So, if you've got a stack of cash and don't believe anyone else will stand a chance (worth remembering we're in early days) you could back both and finish ahead if either wins.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    You say that as if there were a lot of money involved. If I pluck from the air a figure for our current contributions of say, oooooh, £350 m per week, 300 m euros is about 5 days worth. Small change.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    FF43 said:

    To be (slightly) fair to the Minister for Brexit, his suggestion is to use the location of these EU bodies as a bargaining chip. In exchange for Britain graciously allowing the agencies to move, the EU will provide a juicy Brexit deal. In reality, of course, the EU will totally ignore Mr Davis.

    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    And the EU will have to pay the lease.

    The 'argue about everything' strategy is certainly worth trying after the complete failure of Blair's 'say yes to whatever the French want' and Cameron's 'bluster, surrender, lie' strategies.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.
    The EU's negotiating position is that the costs of divorce and settlement need to be agreed.

    This property has a 25 year lease on it until 2040, cumulative cost around 300m.

    Using their preferred division of responsibility, they owe around 85% of the 300m bill on a property this almost certainly wish to vacate.

    That leaves them with a problem. Honouring obligations and not cherry picking cuts both ways.



  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625

    All this posturing reinforces that we need to leave the EU as soon as possible. They clearly need us far more than we need them.

    Doubtful, but we do have a hand to play. Whether this agency stuff is something worth making a fuss about, as part of a principle, I do not know.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.
    The EU's negotiating position is that the costs of divorce and settlement need to be agreed.

    This property has a 25 year lease on it until 2040, cumulative cost around 300m.

    Using their preferred division of responsibility, they owe around 85% of the 300m bill on a property this almost certainly wish to vacate.

    That leaves them with a problem. Honouring obligations and not cherry picking cuts both ways.



    If they need to, they'll negotiate with the landlord and cut a deal. If you think that will be anywhere near 300m, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Oh, you're a Leaver. Carry on.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Ishmael_Z said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    You say that as if there were a lot of money involved. If I pluck from the air a figure for our current contributions of say, oooooh, £350 m per week, 300 m euros is about 5 days worth. Small change.
    In the grand scheme of things, yes.

    It depends on the way negotiations develop though. Whatever happens, it's a 300m obligation.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2017

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.
    The EU's negotiating position is that the costs of divorce and settlement need to be agreed.

    This property has a 25 year lease on it until 2040, cumulative cost around 300m.

    Using their preferred division of responsibility, they owe around 85% of the 300m bill on a property this almost certainly wish to vacate.

    That leaves them with a problem. Honouring obligations and not cherry picking cuts both ways.



    If they need to, they'll negotiate with the landlord and cut a deal. If you think that will be anywhere near 300m, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Oh, you're a Leaver. Carry on.
    So, they walk away from rental obligations? What's good for the goose..
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811
    chestnut said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    malcolmg said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Ha Ha Ha, it is the "Leave means Leave" team that are picking up the tab, time you boys stopped dreaming.
    The lease is between the EMA and the landlord. The UK is uninvolved.
    It will still be tagged onto UK bill, EU will not be picking up any of the bills for the UK's stupidity.
    What choice do they have? The legal contract is with the europeans.
    They just stick it onto the £50 Billion , then pay the landlord with the UK's money simple really.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905

    FF43 said:

    To be (slightly) fair to the Minister for Brexit, his suggestion is to use the location of these EU bodies as a bargaining chip. In exchange for Britain graciously allowing the agencies to move, the EU will provide a juicy Brexit deal. In reality, of course, the EU will totally ignore Mr Davis.

    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    And the EU will have to pay the lease.

    The 'argue about everything' strategy is certainly worth trying after the complete failure of Blair's 'say yes to whatever the French want' and Cameron's 'bluster, surrender, lie' strategies.
    Not sure argue about everything fits well with the time limit of two years?
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    edited April 2017
    chestnut said:

    <
    If they need to, they'll negotiate with the landlord and cut a deal. If you think that will be anywhere near 300m, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Oh, you're a Leaver. Carry on.

    So, they walk away from rental obligations? What's good for the goose..
    I think Alastair is suggesting that the EU will offer a payment to cancel the contract early.
    As long as both parties agree it's no problem surely?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    chestnut said:



    If they need to, they'll negotiate with the landlord and cut a deal. If you think that will be anywhere near 300m, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Oh, you're a Leaver. Carry on.

    So, they walk away from rental obligations? What's good for the goose..
    No. Once again, they'll negotiate with the landlord and cut a deal. If you think that will be anywhere near 300m, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    This is not difficult stuff.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Eagles, but who will be the French Camerons, and who will be les Milibands?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    FF43 said:

    To be (slightly) fair to the Minister for Brexit, his suggestion is to use the location of these EU bodies as a bargaining chip. In exchange for Britain graciously allowing the agencies to move, the EU will provide a juicy Brexit deal. In reality, of course, the EU will totally ignore Mr Davis.

    Scott_P said:

    Did I miss the whole "Minister for Brexit doesn't understand Brexit means Brexit" discussion?

    https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/853961459591720960

    And the EU will have to pay the lease.

    The 'argue about everything' strategy is certainly worth trying after the complete failure of Blair's 'say yes to whatever the French want' and Cameron's 'bluster, surrender, lie' strategies.
    The complete change is that we are now going out of the EU and have therefore lost most of our influence, traded away for notional sovereignty, but leaving us with less say over our destiny than before. If you think we had no influence in the first place, you are wrong, but hardly alone in thinking that.

    The "argue about everything" strategy just wastes time if you want Brexit to look anything like "success".
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    F1: hmm. I don't have the money to do this, but Hamilton and Vettel have title prices on Betfair of 1.94 and 2.5.

    So, if you've got a stack of cash and don't believe anyone else will stand a chance (worth remembering we're in early days) you could back both and finish ahead if either wins.

    MD, surely you lose if Hamilton wins as he is odds on so you get less than twice stake back, unless of course you put more on Hamilton than Vettel but even then you tie up your money for a long time for such small return.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2017

    twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/853998602754158592

    I am sure it will be fine, it isnt like the polls have failed us in recent times....
  • Options
    Hands up if you've ever dealt with an early break clause/termination of a lease? And paid full price?

    Oui and non.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. G, well, yes, obviously you have to vary the stakes a little.

    The long time frame and relatively low return, plus necessary funding, is why I'm not backing it myself. But I know PB has some fellows who play with much bigger stakes who might be interested.

    I'm astounded their odds permit this. The only way one of them doesn't win (barring broken legs or that sort of thing) is if Red Bull not merely closes the gap, but actually becomes the fastest team.

    Of course, if that happens, my 46 on them for the Constructors' would look a bit less daft :p

    Mr. 43, losing influence for nothing reminds me of Brown ignoring a manifesto pledge to sign away vetoes in Lisbon.

    Time will tell whether we were right to vote to leave.
  • Options

    Mr. Eagles, but who will be the French Camerons, and who will be les Milibands?

    I'm hoping la grenouille Miliband is Fillon and Le Pen.
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited April 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    chestnut said:

    <
    If they need to, they'll negotiate with the landlord and cut a deal. If you think that will be anywhere near 300m, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.

    Oh, you're a Leaver. Carry on.

    So, they walk away from rental obligations? What's good for the goose..
    I think Alastair is suggesting that the EU will offer a payment to cancel the contract early.
    As long as both parties agree it's no problem surely?
    Yes I know, you start with a €300m/€60bn 'exit' bill, negotiate a settlement and walk away with little real fuss having paid considerably less.

    They may also prefer a negotiated arrangement where they pay absolutely nothing on London property in return for an obligations swap with the UK on leases across the existing EU
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.
    The EU's negotiating position is that the costs of divorce and settlement need to be agreed.

    This property has a 25 year lease on it until 2040, cumulative cost around 300m.

    Using their preferred division of responsibility, they owe around 85% of the 300m bill on a property this almost certainly wish to vacate.

    That leaves them with a problem. Honouring obligations and not cherry picking cuts both ways.



    They could always sell the lease. Isn't that how these things usually work?
  • Options

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.
    The EU's negotiating position is that the costs of divorce and settlement need to be agreed.

    This property has a 25 year lease on it until 2040, cumulative cost around 300m.

    Using their preferred division of responsibility, they owe around 85% of the 300m bill on a property this almost certainly wish to vacate.

    That leaves them with a problem. Honouring obligations and not cherry picking cuts both ways.



    They could always sell the lease. Isn't that how these things usually work?
    In the world of Chestnut there's no such thing as novation.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
  • Options
    BudGBudG Posts: 711

    Macron either first or second wins him the presidency. He has the sane and not a crook vote sewn up. As he is either top or neck and neck with Le Pen the 3.45 at BF for first does look good value. I can see the undecideds breaking for him.

    The French party system is well an truly smashed, at least at presidential level.

    I truly cannot understand why Le Pen is considered favourite to come first still. Her momentum for the past month has been on a steady downward trajectory and whereas a month or so ago she was heading virtually every poll, over the past week a poll showing her actually leading is a rarity.

    If you discount one of the other two coming through on the rails to take first place on sunday, then the odds should surely be a lot closer between Macron and Le Pen.

    The mantra that Le Pen will win and get smashed in the final round is something that has been engrained in the psyche of these markets ever since they opened. For most of the past year, the polls have supported this belief, but not any more.

    Some people may justify her favouritism in the market to come first by pointing to her high "certainty to vote" percentage. Well that has been consistent at around 84% and yet she has lost around 20% of her support in the past month, coming down from a high of 27% to 22-22.5%, so it would indicate that the 84% who were certain to vote for her were obviously not that certain!!
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Eagles, sacre bleu! Je ne voudrais pas Melenchon dans le deuxieme, er, round!
  • Options
    chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.
    The EU's negotiating position is that the costs of divorce and settlement need to be agreed.

    This property has a 25 year lease on it until 2040, cumulative cost around 300m.

    Using their preferred division of responsibility, they owe around 85% of the 300m bill on a property this almost certainly wish to vacate.

    That leaves them with a problem. Honouring obligations and not cherry picking cuts both ways.



    They could always sell the lease. Isn't that how these things usually work?
    I'm sure offloading the lease will be uppermost in their thoughts.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.

    You seem to think that you have a point. Perhaps you can have another go at expressing it?

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    chestnut said:

    The EU just need to make sure they pay their €300m divorce bill on the lease.

    Is there any reason why the EU can't sublet or assign?
    I suppose not, providing the landlord is happy with it. It makes for a happy precedent on any claims they wish to make on us for rentals on the continent.
    Why? Is the UK government the landlord?
    The landlord is the landlord. Presumably there is a contract, for example a 25 year one at £10.5 m per annum with no break clauses until 2040.

    So anything that the EU negotiate with the landlord will have zero relevance to the UK's position.
    The EU's negotiating position is that the costs of divorce and settlement need to be agreed.

    This property has a 25 year lease on it until 2040, cumulative cost around 300m.

    Using their preferred division of responsibility, they owe around 85% of the 300m bill on a property this almost certainly wish to vacate.

    That leaves them with a problem. Honouring obligations and not cherry picking cuts both ways.



    They could always sell the lease. Isn't that how these things usually work?
    In the world of Chestnut there's no such thing as novation.
    Impossible Eagles - you liar.

    The landlord will not settle, he will need to hang on to every penny.

    Brexit will cause all of London to collapse, all London properties will stand empty for decades, there will be no demand for property, all the bankers will be in Luxemburg etc ....
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    You can see why jezza has never had a proper job, in answer to the classic interview question "tell us your biggest weakness" he would answer oh I have far too many weaknesses to be able to choose!
  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    If Le Pen doesn't make the second round this time (I think she will, but it is certainly the case that her campaign has been lackluster these last couple weeks), I think the FN will be finished as a contender for Presidential elections in the near future. MLP's programme, going for the generic populist party approach (statist, anti-EU, etc), is not popular with FN activists, but as long as she is winning she has a mandate and authority over her party. If she loses, after expectations having been so highly raised. The Marion-Marechal wing of the party, more in the form of Jean Marie, will re-takeover the agenda - returning the FN to a socially conservative catholic ultra movement. Popular with members but not a winning presidential platform by any means.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mr. Eagles, but who will be the French Camerons, and who will be les Milibands?

    Macron is the Cameron, the only Tory Leader to win an election in a quarter century, with his positive vision for the country at the heart of European culture.

    I am not sure that there is a French Miliband. Has Hamon had a #Hamonstone?
  • Options
    On thread, regarding Macron's lack of a party base.

    "Getting out the vote" is very different in France (from either US or UK) because canvassing is totally illegal.

    The parties are only authorized to keep e-mail addresses and mobile numbers from members and people who volunteer their details online. Contacting them on the day of voting (or at any time after Friday 11.59 pm) is considered campaigning and is forbidden. Offering lifts to the polling station is tolerated as long as it is not explicitly linked to a given candidate and if it is arranged beforehand.

    Late campaigning is a very frequent cause for the cancellation of local elections.

  • Options
    frpenkridgefrpenkridge Posts: 670
    Which is harder to understand: VPN, quantum time crystals or the French election?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,920
    BudG said:

    Macron either first or second wins him the presidency. He has the sane and not a crook vote sewn up. As he is either top or neck and neck with Le Pen the 3.45 at BF for first does look good value. I can see the undecideds breaking for him.

    The French party system is well an truly smashed, at least at presidential level.

    I truly cannot understand why Le Pen is considered favourite to come first still. Her momentum for the past month has been on a steady downward trajectory and whereas a month or so ago she was heading virtually every poll, over the past week a poll showing her actually leading is a rarity.

    If you discount one of the other two coming through on the rails to take first place on sunday, then the odds should surely be a lot closer between Macron and Le Pen.

    The mantra that Le Pen will win and get smashed in the final round is something that has been engrained in the psyche of these markets ever since they opened. For most of the past year, the polls have supported this belief, but not any more.

    Some people may justify her favouritism in the market to come first by pointing to her high "certainty to vote" percentage. Well that has been consistent at around 84% and yet she has lost around 20% of her support in the past month, coming down from a high of 27% to 22-22.5%, so it would indicate that the 84% who were certain to vote for her were obviously not that certain!!
    The PVV had by far the highest certainty to vote figures in the Dutch elections, and it didn't help them either.

    I wonder if the rise of Melanchon will discourage people from 'making a statement', and voting Le Pen in the first round. Let's say you are a disgruntled, centre right, Frenchman. You think there's been too much Muslim immigration, and you're not keen on the Euro. At the same time, you believe the holocaust happened, you don't think Putin is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and you value managerial competence. You'd planned to vote Le Pen in round one to make it clear to the politicians that you care about these things, even if didn't really want her as President. The rise of Melachon makes the 'free kicking of the establishment' much harder: the last thing you want is either Le Pen or Melachon to actually end up President. So maybe now you hold your nose and vote Fillon, or even Macron.

    Anyway, it's just a theory.
This discussion has been closed.