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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    Yorkcity said:

    Can Eire get its goods to market in the EU without going through the UK ?

    Yes. It may need to develop Cork & Cobh a bit more but it could do so. Both "face" northwestern France / Brittany
    There's a direct Cork to Roscoff ferry service by Brittany Ferries.
    And of course those Cork boats never sink.

    OK, I have my coat.
    Bonus Question - which famous historical naval person designed Dublin harbour's self-dredging design?
    Do you care to answer the question? ;)
    It was William Bligh. A man very famous in many other contexts less bountiful than this.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited August 2017
    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    I think Yorkshire could be looking for a new coach if the form doesn't improve.

    The Yorkshire team were a disgrace against Essex.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    edited August 2017
    Per The Guardian:

    "The Lib Dem leader, Vince Cable, said: “The whole idea that Chávez and his successor could serve as a dry run for government in the UK is absolutely horrifying. The leadership of the Labour party must make it abundantly clear that they have ended their infatuation with the Venezuelan regime.”"

    And to think that when I asked on here the other day about the arrangements for moving money out of the country I was told not to take any notice of "Daily Mail" type prophecies of doom.

    Well if Vince Cable is - in his own words - "absolutely horrified" surely it is most certainly not unreasonable to start considering planning for the worst.

    Of course it may never come to pass and let's hope it doesn't but you don't insure your home expecting it to fall down or burn down etc.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/07/no-10-reiterates-uk-condemnation-of-venezuelan-government-may
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    I don't think the current team is 'working.'

    Seems harsh.

    8 of them are doing quite well. One deserves a bit more time.

    It's two of the other three I'm worried about.
    Yes, Westley has earned a bit more time, but in a way he demonstrates the laughable incompetence of the selectors because, as an Essex man, I can assure you the County has two other batsmen who deserved to be picked ahead of him - Lawrence and Browne. Now if he's not even in the top two at Essex, wtf is he doing in the England team? (And I'm ignoring Bopara who is also better than Westley and bowls a useful medium pace but has failed too many times in the past to merit another go.)

    And don't get me going on Dawson, please.
    I think it's probably a next cab off the rank job. He's been on their radar for a while, therefore he was the one picked. At least that may give encouragement to the others (bearing in mind Gloucestershire have had one player picked for England in 15 years despite significant one-day success in that time).

    Have to say though I could see a compelling case for trying Hales at three. While his earlier career has resembled Hick's in the wrong way, he has the potential to emulate the Hick who briefly looked the real deal as a Test number three in the mid 90s.
    Hales at 3 is a brilliant idea but who at 2? That is the problem.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Ali has a Michelle, got to be in with a shout for Man of the Series.

    https://twitter.com/AWSStats/status/894599190050897920
    Just imagine how good our first choice spinner and those batsmen who are so much better than him that they are keeping him out of the No. 5 slot must be...
    Well, he's doing pretty well where he is; if it ain't broke...
    Yes, he's doing well.

    However, shall we say politely that our number five is about as much use as a Conservative election pledge? I don't think the current team is 'working.'

    Here's a controversial suggestion - Adil Rashid would score more runs than Dawid Malan. Discuss.
    Well of course he would. So would Woakes. But do we really need 6 bowlers?
    Do we really need 8 batsmen, two of whom can't bat?
    Well you have to play 11. 8 batsmen who could bat would be nice but Moeen at 8 is an absurd extravagance.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    Agree with the sentiment, although he is only 20. Brings me to another point. How does he play himself into form when there is no 4 day cricket for weeks at a time? He doesn't play one day.
    That's a serious problem, and the one real excuse the selectors have. It's impossible to 'demand' an England place through performances in County cricket. There just isn't enough of it.

    The vexed issue of England's opening partner for Cook is a good illustration. His Essex number two, Nick Browne, was in sensational form but if he had been picked for Old Trafford instead of the chronically out of form Jennings (who was actually out of form when picked for the first Test, but no matter) he would have been playing his first long-form game for a month. He may well have been out of form by then. Who knows?

    Don't know what the answer to that is, but picking out-of-form players sure isn't it.
    The structure of the domestic season needs looking at. As you say, there are no form players to pick, as nobody is playing championship games. This is also the time when weather usually is better and long innings can be played in better batting conditions.
    Yes, but have a look at this scorecard from the match at Chelmsford played at the end of June, just before the month's break.

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8052/scorecard/1068554/Essex-vs-Middlesex--Specsavers-County-Championship-Division-One

    Observe the double century scored by the opener, Nick Browne. OK it was a pretty decent track but the seam attack of Finn and Roland-Jones isn't exactly sub-standard, and Essex did manage to bowl out Middlesex twice in two days on the same strip, so it wasn't exactly soporific.

    So now pretend you are Selector Bayliss and tell me why you picked Toblerone (look at his figures for the match) for the next Test, and stayed loyal to Jennings rather than pick Browne or any of the other in-form openers.

    Take your time.
    Indeed. This is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. We got away with it against a sub standard SA. We can't afford to carry batsmen like we have done this series . Malan, Jennings need to go. Westley is clinging on. That is 3 of the top 5!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    I've just discovered that Mrs J has never heard of the films, musical or book 'South Pacific' (*).

    Rarely has the gulf in our education and cultures been more sorely highlighted.

    (*) Although the book has a slightly different title.

    That's a disappointing lacunae but nothing at all compared to your lack of admiration of test cricket.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,534
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Can Eire get its goods to market in the EU without going through the UK ?

    Yes. It may need to develop Cork & Cobh a bit more but it could do so. Both "face" northwestern France / Brittany
    There's a direct Cork to Roscoff ferry service by Brittany Ferries.
    And of course those Cork boats never sink.

    OK, I have my coat.
    Bonus Question - which famous historical naval person designed Dublin harbour's self-dredging design?
    Do you care to answer the question? ;)
    It was William Bligh. A man very famous in many other contexts less bountiful than this.
    There'll be a mutiny at that answer.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    I agree. There was someone on the Today program this morning who was saying that she, as a remainer, was increasingly optimistic and I understood why. There was way too much fantasy on both sides, disaster or triumph. It will be neither, more like what we have than most are willing to admit.
  • August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    That's enuf from you, Palmer. Don't like it, go to bloody Denmark. ;-)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,534
    DavidL said:

    I've just discovered that Mrs J has never heard of the films, musical or book 'South Pacific' (*).

    Rarely has the gulf in our education and cultures been more sorely highlighted.

    (*) Although the book has a slightly different title.

    That's a disappointing lacunae but nothing at all compared to your lack of admiration of test cricket.
    If I wanted to admire paint drying, I'd buy some Dulux.

    (I'm tempted to make a joke about the lack of interior decorating and Durex, but fear that it might gain me a ban).
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    At least it isn't Brexit trench warfare for once!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,534
    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    I've just discovered that Mrs J has never heard of the films, musical or book 'South Pacific' (*).

    Rarely has the gulf in our education and cultures been more sorely highlighted.

    (*) Although the book has a slightly different title.

    That's a disappointing lacunae but nothing at all compared to your lack of admiration of test cricket.
    If I wanted to admire paint drying, I'd buy some Dulux.

    (I'm tempted to make a joke about the lack of interior decorating and Durex, but fear that it might gain me a ban).
    You really should try it. I took 2 first timers to the Oval for the test and they are both now desperate for their next chance. There are few better days than too much food, way too much drink, an excess of banter and some live sport to watch. It really can't be beaten.
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    Agree with the sentiment, although he is only 20. Brings me to another point. How does he play himself into form when there is no 4 day cricket for weeks at a time? He doesn't play one day.


    Take your time.
    Indeed. This is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. We got away with it against a sub standard SA. We can't afford to carry batsmen like we have done this series . Malan, Jennings need to go. Westley is clinging on. That is 3 of the top 5!
    This is what really worries me. A successful series will allow the selectors to paper over the cracks. Frankly, I'd have preferred us to lose this last Test rather than kid ourselves we have a team to take on the Aussies. We don't. We have eight outstanding players and three passengers. You can get away with that against a depleted SA side, but not a full-strength Aussie one.

    The annoying thing is that the problems have been apparent for two years, and we've done nothing to solve them. It's a criminal waste of the great talent we do have. The eight that have been carrying us through would be stand-outs in just about any England side of the past 100 years. Yet the selectors can't find three other players to round out the team. There has been no logic or consistency in their approach, and there's been more than a hint of Teacher's Pet about one or two of selections (Malan and Dawson particularly.)

    You sense my frustration?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    To be fair, Hameed has had real technical problems this season (as Vaughan today confirmed after watching him in the nets).
    For once, I think the selectors actually got it right not recalling him too soon.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
  • Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    To be fair, Hameed has had real technical problems this season (as Vaughan today confirmed after watching him in the nets).
    For once, I think the selectors actually got it right not recalling him too soon.

    I can accept that, but now explain Dawson, Malan and Jennings. And no Buttler.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Can Eire get its goods to market in the EU without going through the UK ?

    Yes. It may need to develop Cork & Cobh a bit more but it could do so. Both "face" northwestern France / Brittany
    There's a direct Cork to Roscoff ferry service by Brittany Ferries.
    And of course those Cork boats never sink.

    OK, I have my coat.
    Bonus Question - which famous historical naval person designed Dublin harbour's self-dredging design?
    Do you care to answer the question? ;)
    It was William Bligh. A man very famous in many other contexts less bountiful than this.
    While his man management left a bit to be desired, he was a hell of a good sailor.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,534
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Can Eire get its goods to market in the EU without going through the UK ?

    Yes. It may need to develop Cork & Cobh a bit more but it could do so. Both "face" northwestern France / Brittany
    There's a direct Cork to Roscoff ferry service by Brittany Ferries.
    And of course those Cork boats never sink.

    OK, I have my coat.
    Bonus Question - which famous historical naval person designed Dublin harbour's self-dredging design?
    Do you care to answer the question? ;)
    It was William Bligh. A man very famous in many other contexts less bountiful than this.
    There'll be a mutiny at that answer.
    I'm trying not to Pandora to anyone's prejudices against bad puns.

    (Bonus point for anyone who gets THAT one!)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    edited August 2017

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    To be fair, Hameed has had real technical problems this season (as Vaughan today confirmed after watching him in the nets).
    For once, I think the selectors actually got it right not recalling him too soon.

    I can accept that, but now explain Dawson, Malan and Jennings. And no Buttler.
    Buttler only scored 38 runs as a specialist batsman in Lancashire's current game. He would therefore have to be picked on white ball form - as Malan is.

    There would be no way on God's green Earth of explaining Dawson as lead spinner.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,534
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I've just discovered that Mrs J has never heard of the films, musical or book 'South Pacific' (*).

    Rarely has the gulf in our education and cultures been more sorely highlighted.

    (*) Although the book has a slightly different title.

    That's a disappointing lacunae but nothing at all compared to your lack of admiration of test cricket.
    If I wanted to admire paint drying, I'd buy some Dulux.

    (I'm tempted to make a joke about the lack of interior decorating and Durex, but fear that it might gain me a ban).
    You really should try it. I took 2 first timers to the Oval for the test and they are both now desperate for their next chance. There are few better days than too much food, way too much drink, an excess of banter and some live sport to watch. It really can't be beaten.
    I went to school with Jeremy Snape. If he couldn't convert me to cricket, then no-one could.

    Having said that, horse racing bores me silly, but I did enjoy a stag do a few years ago at ?Sandown?.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I've just discovered that Mrs J has never heard of the films, musical or book 'South Pacific' (*).

    Rarely has the gulf in our education and cultures been more sorely highlighted.

    (*) Although the book has a slightly different title.

    That's a disappointing lacunae but nothing at all compared to your lack of admiration of test cricket.
    If I wanted to admire paint drying, I'd buy some Dulux.

    (I'm tempted to make a joke about the lack of interior decorating and Durex, but fear that it might gain me a ban).
    You really should try it. I took 2 first timers to the Oval for the test and they are both now desperate for their next chance. There are few better days than too much food, way too much drink, an excess of banter and some live sport to watch. It really can't be beaten.
    I went to school with Jeremy Snape. If he couldn't convert me to cricket, then no-one could.

    Having said that, horse racing bores me silly, but I did enjoy a stag do a few years ago at ?Sandown?.
    Now he was a good player, in the one day stuff anyway. He was a bit unlucky his time with the England squad coincided with Giles' golden years.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    The problem is that the strains between the winners and the losers from globalisation is happening everywhere. Brexit helps with sovereignty (and will likely lower our food prices somewhat), but will do nothing to change the life outcomes for people who don't have the skills to complete in a globalised world.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    edited August 2017

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Can Eire get its goods to market in the EU without going through the UK ?

    Yes. It may need to develop Cork & Cobh a bit more but it could do so. Both "face" northwestern France / Brittany
    There's a direct Cork to Roscoff ferry service by Brittany Ferries.
    And of course those Cork boats never sink.

    OK, I have my coat.
    Bonus Question - which famous historical naval person designed Dublin harbour's self-dredging design?
    Do you care to answer the question? ;)
    It was William Bligh. A man very famous in many other contexts less bountiful than this.
    There'll be a mutiny at that answer.
    I'm trying not to Pandora to anyone's prejudices against bad puns.

    (Bonus point for anyone who gets THAT one!)
    HMS Pandora went after the Bounty :)
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    The problem is that the strains between the winners and the losers from globalisation is happening everywhere. Brexit helps with sovereignty (and will likely lower our food prices somewhat), but will do nothing to change the life outcomes for people who don't have the skills to complete in a globalised world.
    Agreed. Apart from removing a layer of government on which inaction is often blamed.

    I honestly think post Brexit Britain will see more short lived governments. If it does nothing more than hold those that govern to account for shortcomings in their goverence, I'll be happy.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited August 2017

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited August 2017
    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    I agree. There was someone on the Today program this morning who was saying that she, as a remainer, was increasingly optimistic and I understood why. There was way too much fantasy on both sides, disaster or triumph. It will be neither, more like what we have than most are willing to admit.
    Quite. Neither the slaughter of the first born nor the four horsemen of the apocalypse will be manifest whatever. It'll be duller than we probably think for most folk.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    GeoffM said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Can Eire get its goods to market in the EU without going through the UK ?

    Yes. It may need to develop Cork & Cobh a bit more but it could do so. Both "face" northwestern France / Brittany
    There's a direct Cork to Roscoff ferry service by Brittany Ferries.
    And of course those Cork boats never sink.

    OK, I have my coat.
    Bonus Question - which famous historical naval person designed Dublin harbour's self-dredging design?
    Do you care to answer the question? ;)
    It was William Bligh. A man very famous in many other contexts less bountiful than this.
    There'll be a mutiny at that answer.
    I'm trying not to Pandora to anyone's prejudices against bad puns.

    (Bonus point for anyone who gets THAT one!)
    HMS Pandora went after the Bounty :)
    Technically it went after the mutineers :smiley:

    But I'll allow it.
  • Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
    Used to feel that way about Opera myself, but got there in the end. Still struggling with ballet.

    And fishing.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    The problem is that the strains between the winners and the losers from globalisation is happening everywhere. Brexit helps with sovereignty (and will likely lower our food prices somewhat), but will do nothing to change the life outcomes for people who don't have the skills to complete in a globalised world.
    I think nothing is a bit of an exaggeration. The advantage they may gain is that they will not have to compete with better qualified and much more highly motivated strangers here for jobs generated by the domestic economy (eg service industry and care). They still won't be able to produce anything that we can sell to the US but they will have a better chance in the domestic economy. It is also possible that we might be incentivised to compensate for the inadequacies of their education and train them to do something useful. At the moment there is a positive disincentive to do so because it is so easy to employ those who did get an education from those not obsessed with Marxist sociology.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit helps with sovereignty (and will likely lower our food prices somewhat)

    Let's see... Red peppers at middle of the road Trader Joe's are 99c each compared with 52p at Tesco.

    http://static2.uk.businessinsider.com/image/58e168e2dd089539258b4826-1200/red-peppers.jpg

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/default.aspx?id=258421636

    Organic strawberries are $5.99 for 16oz or £2.50 for 300g in Tesco. (Equivalent of ~$4.90 for 16oz)

    http://static3.uk.businessinsider.com/image/58e168e3dd089539258b4828-1200/organic-strawberries.jpg

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=274026003
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
  • ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    To be fair, Hameed has had real technical problems this season (as Vaughan today confirmed after watching him in the nets).
    For once, I think the selectors actually got it right not recalling him too soon.

    I can accept that, but now explain Dawson, Malan and Jennings. And no Buttler.
    Buttler only scored 38 runs as a specialist batsman in Lancashire's current game. He would therefore have to be picked on white ball form - as Malan is.

    There would be no way on God's green Earth of explaining Dawson as lead spinner.
    To me, Buttler gets in on the class principle. In his case, you just keep picking him until he finds form. Jennings, Malan etc have yet to demonstrate the requisite class, though they may do one day.

    [You will all be pleased to learn that I have to go walk the dog now. Bye.]
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
    Awkward. My daughter was asking what talent (as opposed to super power) each of us would want that we lack at the moment last night. I went for music. I wish I appreciated and understood it more. I am the worse for my inadequacies.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Business as usual = Brexit is a temporary political difficulty that will blow over before it happens. The further removed you get from British and European politics you get, the clearer this becomes.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    To be fair, Hameed has had real technical problems this season (as Vaughan today confirmed after watching him in the nets).
    For once, I think the selectors actually got it right not recalling him too soon.

    I can accept that, but now explain Dawson, Malan and Jennings. And no Buttler.
    Buttler only scored 38 runs as a specialist batsman in Lancashire's current game. He would therefore have to be picked on white ball form - as Malan is.

    There would be no way on God's green Earth of explaining Dawson as lead spinner.
    To me, Buttler gets in on the class principle. In his case, you just keep picking him until he finds form. Jennings, Malan etc have yet to demonstrate the requisite class, though they may do one day.

    [You will all be pleased to learn that I have to go walk the dog now. Bye.]
    +1. Buttler is a god.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Do you mean, we leave the EU but otherwise carry on much as before? (I.e. free trade, free movement, financial contributions to the EU)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Apologies if this has already been covered earlier but what do PBers make of the story that the Govt is to release key brexit policy papers in the next few weeks?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/07/government-to-release-key-brexit-policy-papers
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Returning to price comparisons, even bananas, which are synonymous with Brussels bureaucracy are 29c each at Trader Joe's versus 18p at Tesco.

    http://static5.uk.businessinsider.com/image/58e168e4dd089539258b482a-1200/organic-bananas.jpg

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=266419328

    The claim that Brexit will give us cheaper food seems highly tenuous.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Do you mean, we leave the EU but otherwise carry on much as before? (I.e. free trade, free movement, financial contributions to the EU)
    Yes with the possible exception of free movement. I think there will be free movement for the qualified but not so much for the young. We will continue to pay for the parts of the club we want but we will also have more freedom to go our own way if we think it better (which we may frequently not).

    Over time our EU trade will fall but it will be gradual and much of it would have happened anyway as Europe continues to diminish.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Do you mean, we leave the EU but otherwise carry on much as before? (I.e. free trade, free movement, financial contributions to the EU)
    Yes with the possible exception of free movement. I think there will be free movement for the qualified but not so much for the young. We will continue to pay for the parts of the club we want but we will also have more freedom to go our own way if we think it better (which we may frequently not).

    Over time our EU trade will fall but it will be gradual and much of it would have happened anyway as Europe continues to diminish.
    Indeed. If the EU (and our media) are being sensible, this is the smoothest outcome for all....
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    Of course - I didn't say native born, mind, and we're really splitting hairs here.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2017

    Returning to price comparisons, even bananas, which are synonymous with Brussels bureaucracy are 29c each at Trader Joe's versus 18p at Tesco.

    http://static5.uk.businessinsider.com/image/58e168e4dd089539258b482a-1200/organic-bananas.jpg

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=266419328

    The claim that Brexit will give us cheaper food seems highly tenuous.

    You know one of those links says organic and one of those does not right?

    Tesco's have organic bananas at a higher price too: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=268437188 - 23p for a small organic banana vs their 18p for a normal sized non-organic banana that you chose to highlight.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    For me anyone who has committed themselves to the UK is British and welcome. I have some reservations about those who choose to live here but maintain the culture of the Punjab, for example, but anyone genuinely on board (which includes the great British right to moan about the status quo of course) is very welcome.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm actually surprised at how well things are going all things considering...

    When TM blew the election I thought we really was in the sh*t but it seems the ship has been steadied and negotiations appear to have gone well so far.

    Er, what is it about the negotiations that you think has gone well GIN?
    I was speaking to my only multi linguist friend today. He reads the press in several European languages including French, German, Dutch and Spanish. He says the most remarkable thing about Brexit is that it is never mentioned. The Dutch were recently quite pleased a UK bank was intending to open an office there but otherwise it is a boring technical matter to be left to the bureaucrats to sort out.

    I find that encouraging. If no one really cares the politicians will want a deal which doesn't rock the boat and doesn't upset anyone too much. That's exactly what we want too.
    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Do you mean, we leave the EU but otherwise carry on much as before? (I.e. free trade, free movement, financial contributions to the EU)
    Yes with the possible exception of free movement. I think there will be free movement for the qualified but not so much for the young. We will continue to pay for the parts of the club we want but we will also have more freedom to go our own way if we think it better (which we may frequently not).

    Over time our EU trade will fall but it will be gradual and much of it would have happened anyway as Europe continues to diminish.
    Understood. Although I am a Europhile Remainer I do think it's a real shame the EU didn't find some way to compromise it's principles a bit regarding free movement. It could have offered up some kind of opt-out, maybe time-limited at some distant future date, which could well have tipped the balance away from Leave. I guess they thought, as most did, that Remain would win without such a concession. I wonder if they regret it now?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited August 2017

    Returning to price comparisons, even bananas, which are synonymous with Brussels bureaucracy are 29c each at Trader Joe's versus 18p at Tesco.

    http://static5.uk.businessinsider.com/image/58e168e4dd089539258b482a-1200/organic-bananas.jpg

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=266419328

    The claim that Brexit will give us cheaper food seems highly tenuous.

    You know one of those links says organic and one of those does not right?

    Tesco's have organic bananas at a higher price too: https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=268437188 - 23p for a small organic banana vs their 18p for a normal sized non-organic banana that you chose to highlight.
    That was an oversight. Still it's a wash even at the organic price.

    Let's try meat. 'Lean' (10% fat) beef mince is $6.49 per lb in Trader Joe's and leaner (5% fat) beef mince is £8 per kg in Tesco (equivalent of ~$4.71 per lb).

    http://static4.uk.businessinsider.com/image/58e168e6dd089539258b482d-1200/ground-beef.jpg

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=250871426

    Go to 15% fat and the UK price goes from cheaper to dramatically cheaper (£4.38/kg):

    https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=296422890
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    For me anyone who has committed themselves to the UK is British and welcome. I have some reservations about those who choose to live here but maintain the culture of the Punjab, for example, but anyone genuinely on board (which includes the great British right to moan about the status quo of course) is very welcome.
    Agreed. But in my mind that excludes anyone who doesn't fancy paying our taxes. If you want to pay taxes at some other country's lower rate that's fine but you should lose you UK cintizenship. Want to keep your citizenship? - then pay your taxes in the UK.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    According to this aggregator, grocery prices are on average 21.89% lower in the UK than in the US.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=United+Kingdom
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    .

    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Do you mean, we leave the EU but otherwise carry on much as before? (I.e. free trade, free movement, financial contributions to the EU)
    Yes with the possible exception of free movement. I think there will be free movement for the qualified but not so much for the young. We will continue to pay for the parts of the club we want but we will also have more freedom to go our own way if we think it better (which we may frequently not).

    Over time our EU trade will fall but it will be gradual and much of it would have happened anyway as Europe continues to diminish.
    Understood. Although I am a Europhile Remainer I do think it's a real shame the EU didn't find some way to compromise it's principles a bit regarding free movement. It could have offered up some kind of opt-out, maybe time-limited at some distant future date, which could well have tipped the balance away from Leave. I guess they thought, as most did, that Remain would win without such a concession. I wonder if they regret it now?
    As someone who voted leave I bitterly regret that Cameron was not able to deliver a deal that I could vote for. Having adults in charge of the country was a pleasant change and looks all the better in retrospect.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    For me anyone who has committed themselves to the UK is British and welcome. I have some reservations about those who choose to live here but maintain the culture of the Punjab, for example, but anyone genuinely on board (which includes the great British right to moan about the status quo of course) is very welcome.
    Agreed. But in my mind that excludes anyone who doesn't fancy paying our taxes. If you want to pay taxes at some other country's lower rate that's fine but you should lose you UK cintizenship. Want to keep your citizenship? - then pay your taxes in the UK.
    Wouldn't disagree. It is a part of the social contract.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    dixiedean said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    At least it isn't Brexit trench warfare for once!
    Er. That's true. Carry on!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    For me anyone who has committed themselves to the UK is British and welcome. I have some reservations about those who choose to live here but maintain the culture of the Punjab, for example, but anyone genuinely on board (which includes the great British right to moan about the status quo of course) is very welcome.
    Agreed. But in my mind that excludes anyone who doesn't fancy paying our taxes. If you want to pay taxes at some other country's lower rate that's fine but you should lose you UK cintizenship. Want to keep your citizenship? - then pay your taxes in the UK.
    So your company posts you to somewhere (Geneva, New York, Jersey etc etc) for say two years and you lose your citizenship?

  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T

    If Moeen Ali gets a wicket with his next ball in test cricket, it'll be 3 in 3 balls, but it won't be a hat-trick.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    Of course - I didn't say native born, mind, and we're really splitting hairs here.

    You're right, sorry, I added the 'born' which was stupid as 'native born' and 'native' are synonymous.

    Apologies I had my pedant hat on. I'll shut-up now!

    :lol:
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    welshowl said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    For me anyone who has committed themselves to the UK is British and welcome. I have some reservations about those who choose to live here but maintain the culture of the Punjab, for example, but anyone genuinely on board (which includes the great British right to moan about the status quo of course) is very welcome.
    Agreed. But in my mind that excludes anyone who doesn't fancy paying our taxes. If you want to pay taxes at some other country's lower rate that's fine but you should lose you UK cintizenship. Want to keep your citizenship? - then pay your taxes in the UK.
    So your company posts you to somewhere (Geneva, New York, Jersey etc etc) for say two years and you lose your citizenship?

    If you are still domiciled here you get to offset any local taxes where you work but you still chip in if they are less than you would pay in the UK. If not, why should you get a vote?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    .

    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Do you mean, we leave the EU but otherwise carry on much as before? (I.e. free trade, free movement, financial contributions to the EU)
    Yes with the possible exception of free movement. I think there will be free movement for the qualified but not so much for the young. We will continue to pay for the parts of the club we want but we will also have more freedom to go our own way if we think it better (which we may frequently not).

    Over time our EU trade will fall but it will be gradual and much of it would have happened anyway as Europe continues to diminish.
    Understood. Although I am a Europhile Remainer I do think it's a real shame the EU didn't find some way to compromise it's principles a bit regarding free movement. It could have offered up some kind of opt-out, maybe time-limited at some distant future date, which could well have tipped the balance away from Leave. I guess they thought, as most did, that Remain would win without such a concession. I wonder if they regret it now?
    As someone who voted leave I bitterly regret that Cameron was not able to deliver a deal that I could vote for. Having adults in charge of the country was a pleasant change and looks all the better in retrospect.
    So you don't think that TMay & Co are "adults in charge"?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    DavidL said:

    welshowl said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    For me anyone who has committed themselves to the UK is British and welcome. I have some reservations about those who choose to live here but maintain the culture of the Punjab, for example, but anyone genuinely on board (which includes the great British right to moan about the status quo of course) is very welcome.
    Agreed. But in my mind that excludes anyone who doesn't fancy paying our taxes. If you want to pay taxes at some other country's lower rate that's fine but you should lose you UK cintizenship. Want to keep your citizenship? - then pay your taxes in the UK.
    So your company posts you to somewhere (Geneva, New York, Jersey etc etc) for say two years and you lose your citizenship?

    If you are still domiciled here you get to offset any local taxes where you work but you still chip in if they are less than you would pay in the UK. If not, why should you get a vote?
    Sounds fiendish to calculate or police. Currency fluctuations, unaligned tax years, changed tax rates part way through a year, changed jobs etc?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    dixiedean said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    At least it isn't Brexit trench warfare for once!
    Er. That's true. Carry on!
    Sadly, the brief hiatus has ended. Normal service resumed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    welshowl said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/08/07/brexits-dunkirk-fantasyland/

    Brexit’s Dunkirk Fantasyland

    If the cultural roots of Brexit are reduced to one sentiment, it is that Britain did not win two world wars to be run by Germany via Brussels.

    Glorified blog post. Much better analysis appears on here every single day, even in August.

    Macro study of Brexit misses the point - which is to be found in the manifold injustices of the current social settlement and especially the breaking of the social contract between employers and native BRitons.
    Who do you regard as native Britons? That sounds a tad racist.
    Eh? How? Britain is a multi racial society.
    Assuming native Britons means those born in Britain (can there be any other interpretation?), it'snot racist but it is a bit discriminatory.

    Wouldn't it be just as effective to say "...breaking of the social contract between employers and British citizens" ?
    Synonymous in my mind - hence the bafflement...
    Anyone born overseas who has subsequently become a British citizen is not a 'native born Briton'. I presume you'd agree they should be treated the same as their fellow citizens?
    For me anyone who has committed themselves to the UK is British and welcome. I have some reservations about those who choose to live here but maintain the culture of the Punjab, for example, but anyone genuinely on board (which includes the great British right to moan about the status quo of course) is very welcome.
    Agreed. But in my mind that excludes anyone who doesn't fancy paying our taxes. If you want to pay taxes at some other country's lower rate that's fine but you should lose you UK cintizenship. Want to keep your citizenship? - then pay your taxes in the UK.
    So your company posts you to somewhere (Geneva, New York, Jersey etc etc) for say two years and you lose your citizenship?

    No, we should follow the US approach.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    GIN1138 said:

    .

    Well that's interesting, though I don't see how it says anything about how well or otherwise the negotiations are going.

    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that hardly anyone outside the British Isles is that bothered about Brexit. Therein lies the problem for our negotiators though... Aside from Eire, it won't really matter much to the EU 27 if we fail to reach an agreement and drop out. I think that puts us in a weak position and I suspect that will tell in the final agreement (which Farage and co will roundly condemn as a sell-out).
    It is not a sure thing. But I do think business as usual is on the up.
    Do you mean, we leave the EU but otherwise carry on much as before? (I.e. free trade, free movement, financial contributions to the EU)
    Yes with the possible exception of free movement. I think there will be free movement for the qualified but not so much for the young. We will continue to pay for the parts of the club we want but we will also have more freedom to go our own way if we think it better (which we may frequently not).

    Over time our EU trade will fall but it will be gradual and much of it would have happened anyway as Europe continues to diminish.
    Understood. Although I am a Europhile Remainer I do think it's a real shame the EU didn't find some way to compromise it's principles a bit regarding free movement. It could have offered up some kind of opt-out, maybe time-limited at some distant future date, which could well have tipped the balance away from Leave. I guess they thought, as most did, that Remain would win without such a concession. I wonder if they regret it now?
    As someone who voted leave I bitterly regret that Cameron was not able to deliver a deal that I could vote for. Having adults in charge of the country was a pleasant change and looks all the better in retrospect.
    So you don't think that TMay & Co are "adults in charge"?
    Nope.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Well Laura Muir was the third woman to cross the line in the women's 1500m...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    To be fair, Hameed has had real technical problems this season (as Vaughan today confirmed after watching him in the nets).
    For once, I think the selectors actually got it right not recalling him too soon.

    I can accept that, but now explain Dawson, Malan and Jennings. And no Buttler.
    That's dead easy - our selectors are pretty shite.

    (Though I regard Buttler as unproven as a test player, despite his extravagant talents.)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Opera is like red burgundy: expensive, unpredictable, usually disappointing, but when you get a good example utterly exquisite.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
    Opera is pure emotion. If it's good it can reduce you to tears, not because of sentimentality necessarily but because it has overwhelmed you and broken down your emotional defences, in some cases straying very close to the preposterous. Its emotional power comes from the combination of sight and sound.

    Which brings us onto Wagner who wrote operas that are very long, parts of which are bum numbingly boring but interspersed with passages of genius. Someone who can make an orgasm last half an hour as in the second act of Tristan and Isolde is a bit special.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    FF43 said:

    Which brings us onto Wagner who wrote operas that are very long, parts of which are bum numbingly boring but interspersed with passages of genius. Someone who can make an orgasm last half an hour as in the second act of Tristan and Isolde is a bit special.

    I was interested to see that Amber Rudd's brother has just become the first ever Englishman to join the board of the Bayreuth Festival.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    South Africa: vote of no confidence tomorrow, (a secret ballot this time).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    AndyJS said:

    South Africa: vote of no confidence tomorrow, (a secret ballot this time).

    I know they lost the series but that sounds a bit drastic!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Most expensive suicide note in history?
  • AndyJS said:

    O/T

    If Moeen Ali gets a wicket with his next ball in test cricket, it'll be 3 in 3 balls, but it won't be a hat-trick.

    It is a hat-trick if the third ball happens next day (ie stumps after wicket 2) but is it a hat-trick if the first two happen in the first innings and the third happens in the next innings of the same test?

    What if the bowler is removed after the first or second and then returns to continue their spell later on within the same innings?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
    Used to feel that way about Opera myself, but got there in the end. Still struggling with ballet.

    And fishing.
    Mrs Fox likes the ballet, so I go with her couple of times a year to the ROH. Once you've seen enough it ceases to be quite as daft as it looks.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Opera is like red burgundy: expensive, unpredictable, usually disappointing, but when you get a good example utterly exquisite.

    A good analogy (perhaps a tad hard on burgundy tbf).

    When it's at its very best, opera seems to get to me not via the ears or the eyes but somewhere deep in my chest. Sounds pretentious, I know, but that's the way it feels. Hard to explain but great to experience.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
    Used to feel that way about Opera myself, but got there in the end. Still struggling with ballet.

    And fishing.
    Mrs Fox likes the ballet, so I go with her couple of times a year to the ROH. Once you've seen enough it ceases to be quite as daft as it looks.

    Extremely athletic at its best.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,534

    Opera is like red burgundy: expensive, unpredictable, usually disappointing, but when you get a good example utterly exquisite.

    A good analogy (perhaps a tad hard on burgundy tbf).

    When it's at its very best, opera seems to get to me not via the ears or the eyes but somewhere deep in my chest. Sounds pretentious, I know, but that's the way it feels. Hard to explain but great to experience.
    Firefox used to do that to me.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
    Used to feel that way about Opera myself, but got there in the end. Still struggling with ballet.

    And fishing.
    Mrs Fox likes the ballet, so I go with her couple of times a year to the ROH. Once you've seen enough it ceases to be quite as daft as it looks.

    Extremely athletic at its best.
    It has grown on me over the years, as I gradually work through the more obscure pieces.

    The ROH may have cost a phenomenal amount to restore, but is well worth the money.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Opera is like red burgundy: expensive, unpredictable, usually disappointing, but when you get a good example utterly exquisite.

    A good analogy (perhaps a tad hard on burgundy tbf).

    When it's at its very best, opera seems to get to me not via the ears or the eyes but somewhere deep in my chest. Sounds pretentious, I know, but that's the way it feels. Hard to explain but great to experience.
    Firefox used to do that to me.
    You should get out more... to the opera maybe? :smile:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    edited August 2017

    I bet all those Tory donors are delighted their money was so well spent. :lol:

    Tbf to Tezza though I can't recall many people saying "don't use Lynton" when she called the election!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Mortimer said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    August! Go to PB and it's all about bloody cricket...

    Well we have to touch on the important stuff of life occasionally. No doubt we will be back to the tedium of politics and filthy lucre soon enough.
    Important stuff of life? Then how come we're not discussing rocketry and deep space exploration, or the programs about steam trains currently showing on BBC 4? I mean, it's LNER rubbish, but at least it's a few orders of magnitude more important than cricket...
    Rocketry and deep space is indeed interesting and I find your comments on various engineering issues genuinely fascinating but you are missing out, you really are.
    I'm also missing out on trepanning. I think I'd prefer a hole being drilled in my skull to watching a day of test cricket. ;)
    I feel a bit like that about Opera. One of my friends at lunch was just overwhelmed by some Wagner that he had seen last night at the Festival and couldn't take our polite responses as an adequate response. I accept that in that case I am the one who is missing out.
    Ditto! I simply don't get Opera. Love a good play, but the whole singing in an often unintelligible way ruins it for me.

    This is rather unfortunate as my other half is a rather decent amateur opera singer....
    Used to feel that way about Opera myself, but got there in the end. Still struggling with ballet.

    And fishing.
    Mrs Fox likes the ballet, so I go with her couple of times a year to the ROH. Once you've seen enough it ceases to be quite as daft as it looks.

    Extremely athletic at its best.
    No at it's best it makes you laugh, cry, hope, despair, etc like all great art.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2017

    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    If Moeen Ali gets a wicket with his next ball in test cricket, it'll be 3 in 3 balls, but it won't be a hat-trick.

    It is a hat-trick if the third ball happens next day (ie stumps after wicket 2) but is it a hat-trick if the first two happen in the first innings and the third happens in the next innings of the same test?

    What if the bowler is removed after the first or second and then returns to continue their spell later on within the same innings?
    The only restriction is that a hat-trick has to take place entirely within the same match. Everything else is okay: for example a different innings, a different over, the next day, etc.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    South Africa: vote of no confidence tomorrow, (a secret ballot this time).

    I know they lost the series but that sounds a bit drastic!
    Lol.
  • A little off topic but I wondered if any of the punters on here have dabbled in the cryptocurrencies? I have had a dabble in bitcoin and ethereum. Of course it is a bubble but I suspect one that has a lot further to run.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    A little off topic but I wondered if any of the punters on here have dabbled in the cryptocurrencies? I have had a dabble in bitcoin and ethereum. Of course it is a bubble but I suspect one that has a lot further to run.

    Yes, I'm both a miner and a trader - although you've just caught me on my way out of the door. Tomorrow, perhaps, if you are still around?

  • I bet all those Tory donors are delighted their money was so well spent. :lol:

    Tbf to Tezza though I can't recall many people saying "don't use Lynton" when she called the election!
    Wasn't the problem that she listened to the gruesome twosome rather than him?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Can Eire get its goods to market in the EU without going through the UK ?

    Yes. It may need to develop Cork & Cobh a bit more but it could do so. Both "face" northwestern France / Brittany
    There's a direct Cork to Roscoff ferry service by Brittany Ferries.
    And of course those Cork boats never sink.

    OK, I have my coat.
    Bonus Question - which famous historical naval person designed Dublin harbour's self-dredging design?
    Do you care to answer the question? ;)
    It was William Bligh. A man very famous in many other contexts less bountiful than this.
    Indeed :+1:

    He was actually a brilliant sailor, just a rubbish disciplinarian.
  • Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    dixiedean said:

    Hamid 77 not out today. Batted for over five hours in an unpromising position. Has turned probable defeat into a possible victory for the mighty Lanky. Got a hundred for 2nd eleven last week too. Form temporary, class permanent.

    If he played for Middlesex, he'd have fifty caps by now.
    To be fair, Hameed has had real technical problems this season (as Vaughan today confirmed after watching him in the nets).
    For once, I think the selectors actually got it right not recalling him too soon.

    I can accept that, but now explain Dawson, Malan and Jennings. And no Buttler.
    That's dead easy - our selectors are pretty shite.

    (Though I regard Buttler as unproven as a test player, despite his extravagant talents.)
    The nearest equivalent to Buttler I can think of is the Australian Test batsman of my youth, Doug Walters. He never practiced, never trained, smoked heavily and often got out 'irresponsibly', but he was pure class, and everybody knew it. Fortunately for Australia, that included their selectors. Even during his most barren spells, they kept on picking him. In the end, it always paid off.

    England should do the same with Buttler, but if Whittaker and Bayliss think Dawson is a Test cricketer, what hope is there?
This discussion has been closed.