If I were a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian or atheist Asian I wouldn't be happy with that description
If Roman Catholic immigrants were constantly gang raping young Asian girls in an Islamic country, I think I would find it unfair if the press of that country described the perpetrators as "Europeans", tarring Jews, Anglicans, atheists et al with the same brush. These "Asian" rapists who collude together in Northern towns rarely seem to come from Indian origin do they?
The BBC article does give the national origins of the perpetrators.
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
It is also interesting that a terrorist attack in France now doesn't even make the headline of the hourly news...I presume because it is now just the norm these days in France.
According to Mark Pack's UK polling history (https://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/), the Conservatives' worst position was in a MORI poll in December 1981, which had the parties at 23 (Con), 23.5 (Lab), and 50.5 (SDP/L), i.e. 27.5 points behind the leader.
By March 1982, these figures were 34, 34, and 30. The SDP lost its lead and went from first place to last before the Argentine invasion. The Conservatives went from last to joint first.
By the end of April, it was still 35/30/33. This went to 51/24/23 in June, but stabilised at scores like 42, 30, 22 thereafter all the way to the election.
The Alliance was where Labour voters went if they despaired of Labour but they never persuaded any Conservatives, pace your anecdata.
That's my clear recollection too. The Falklands War and Thatcher's approach produced a very unsavoury and disturbing jingoism in the right wing press and then in the population as a whole. Thatcher's popularity rocketed and at the time I remember wondering whether she had risked all those soldiers and money for the sake of her party and her own skin rather than for the country.
Out of interest, why is jingoism "unsavoury" and "disturbing".
When one's own territory is invaded by a country whose leadership have about as much democratic mandate as a haddock, how is it jingoistic to respond to defend oneself?
It's as natural a reaction as it is to slap a wasp if it lands on your arm.
Why is it ugly to take pride in where you are from? The people you grew up around? The culture that shaped you?
Jingoism, according to the dictionary, is a belief in "my country right or wrong" often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country [rather than support for diplomacy and negotiation]. It is not the same as patriotism, but patriotism can turn into jingoism and intolerance very quickly. It was evident around the time of the Falklands War, fed by the tabloids as ever, and was very disturbing to me and lots of others. The BBC tried to provide an objective account and was roundly condemned, including by Thatcher. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11684868/Margaret-Thatcher-papers-BBC-assisted-the-enemy-during-the-Falklands-War.html
What a lovely dictionary.
What part of our defence of the Falklands, a territory where 98% of the population wish to remain British, in a circumstance where they were attacked and subjugated to invasion by an unelected and undemocratic military junta, are you objecting to?
Ok so 98% of gibralter want to remiain in the EU so how should we defend then?
If I were a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian or atheist Asian I wouldn't be happy with that description
If Roman Catholic immigrants were constantly gang raping young Asian girls in an Islamic country, I think I would find it unfair if the press of that country described the perpetrators as "Europeans", tarring Jews, Anglicans, atheists et al with the same brush. These "Asian" rapists who collude together in Northern towns rarely seem to come from Indian origin do they?
The BBC article does give the national origins of the perpetrators.
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
Yes the BBC gives origins of the accused, although so what really? They are British now, what does it matter where there parents came from? Why is it so difficult to say these men are Muslims rather than skirt around the word? It doesn't mean all Muslim men are rapists, people don't have to be soft soaped or taken for idiots. It was white Christians who ruined America for the natives, and were mostly to blame for slavery; I am a white Christian, but don't play victim if someone points that out or feel the need to find equivalent wrong doing by people of another race or religion.
The BBC's "Three Girls" drama about Rotherham managed three hours of tv on the subject without mentioning the I or M words.
I've been taking a look at James Chappers Twitter feed just now.
I presume he's not trying to win people over to his side of the argument.
It seems that Leavers don't like it up 'em. Most of the headbangers are unwinnable to his side of the argument so he may as well give them the home truths unvarnished.
I reckon most leavers are past caring about the feelings of those who cant deal with being on the losing side for once, if they ever think about it at all. They probably dont even think of themselves as "leavers". People who bang on and on about the referendum result look, to most normal people, the same as Kippers did in 2009
Agree. I spent months trying to be polite and hoping they'd grow up but it just hasn't happened. What strikes me as most baffling is the tactic of insisting Brexit is collapsing / Britain is in crisis / the economy is falling over and over again, as if people will actually believe it because it's repeated often enough.
Surely, like the SDP for at least some of its members (see: http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/112666), the point wouldn't be to actually thrive but to hit Labour just enough to discredit its left-wing.
Reminds me of archive-trawling, the New Statesman carried adverts for a new 'Moderate Party' around 1920 or so. Its policies seemed considerably more left-wing than Labour today. Wonder what happened to it...
There's one of those adverts in case anybody's interested. 'Centrist' parties seem to proliferate as much as the Trotskyist sects, with far less success or sustained contribution to political culture. Why not just join the Whig Party (http://whigs.uk/)?
Then came the Falklands War and it’s not often appreciated that not only did it save Margaret Thatcher
That's my clear recollection too. The Falklands War and Thatcher's approach produced a very unsavoury and disturbing jingoism in the right wing press and then in the population as a whole. Thatcher's popularity rocketed and at the time I remember wondering whether she had risked all those soldiers and money for the sake of her party and her own skin rather than for the country.
Out of interest, why is jingoism "unsavoury" and "disturbing".
When one's own territory is invaded by a country whose leadership have about as much democratic mandate as a haddock, how is it jingoistic to respond to defend oneself?
It's as natural a reaction as it is to slap a wasp if it lands on your arm.
Why is it ugly to take pride in where you are from? The people you grew up around? The culture that shaped you?
Jingoism, according to the dictionary, is a belief in "my country right or wrong" often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country [rather than support for diplomacy and negotiation]. It is not the same as patriotism, but patriotism can turn into jingoism and intolerance very quickly. It was evident around the time of the Falklands War, fed by the tabloids as ever, and was very disturbing to me and lots of others. The BBC tried to provide an objective account and was roundly condemned, including by Thatcher. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11684868/Margaret-Thatcher-papers-BBC-assisted-the-enemy-during-the-Falklands-War.html
What a lovely dictionary.
What part of our defence of the Falklands, a territory where 98% of the population wish to remain British, in a circumstance where they were attacked and subjugated to invasion by an unelected and undemocratic military junta, are you objecting to?
I've been taking a look at James Chappers Twitter feed just now.
I presume he's not trying to win people over to his side of the argument.
It seems that Leavers don't like it up 'em. Most of the headbangers are unwinnable to his side of the argument so he may as well give them the home truths unvarnished.
I reckon most leavers are past caring about the feelings of those who cant deal with being on the losing side for once, if they ever think about it at all. They probably dont even think of themselves as "leavers". People who bang on and on about the referendum result look, to most normal people, the same as Kippers did in 2009
Agree. I spent months trying to be polite and hoping they'd grow up but it just hasn't happened. What strikes me as most baffling is the tactic of insisting Brexit is collapsing / Britain is in crisis / the economy is falling over and over again, as if people will actually believe it because it's repeated often enough.
Agreed 100%, as a Remainer with a full family of Leavers. Arguments about the impact on GDP etc. don't phase them because our community palpably has felt to be in decline for a long time, regardless of what GDP is doing.
I've been taking a look at James Chappers Twitter feed just now.
I presume he's not trying to win people over to his side of the argument.
It seems that Leavers don't like it up 'em. Most of the headbangers are unwinnable to his side of the argument so he may as well give them the home truths unvarnished.
You are a headbanger - I am a home truth-giver etc. etc.
If I were a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian or atheist Asian I wouldn't be happy with that description
If Roman Catholic immigrants were constantly gang raping young Asian girls in an Islamic country, I think I would find it unfair if the press of that country described the perpetrators as "Europeans", tarring Jews, Anglicans, atheists et al with the same brush. These "Asian" rapists who collude together in Northern towns rarely seem to come from Indian origin do they?
The BBC article does give the national origins of the perpetrators.
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
Re your 2nd paragraph, they think the girls are worthless pieces of trash because they are not Muslims.
All this talk about Third Parties is interesting, but the question should be put, where is it going to come from? Tony Blair has been trying to start one up recently, and is going nowhere with it. His obvious hope was to try and draw his disaffected supporters in the PLP, but with the prospect of a Tory collapse, another GE, and a Labour Party victory with cabinet seats on offer, none of the CCP would come out and play. Particularly since Blair's old constituency of Sedgefield CLP has been taken over by Momentum and Corbyn supporters. Even the most ardent of Blair's MP supporters can see the writing on the wall, if they don't behave.
Disaffected Tory MP's? They too are considering the possibility of another GE. Especially since being stuck in their constituencies for 3 months getting their ears burnt about the incompetencies of May, her cabinet, Brexit and whatever other failings are coming to light, daily. They will know that another leadership election to replace May will not be considered legitimate by the electorate. Will they take a chance to retain their seat in the best club in London by switching parties at this stage of the game, losing their local party support and vote? Only if they are particularly stupid, and there aren't that many who are.
If I were a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian or atheist Asian I wouldn't be happy with that description
If Roman Catholic immigrants were constantly gang raping young Asian girls in an Islamic country, I think I would find it unfair if the press of that country described the perpetrators as "Europeans", tarring Jews, Anglicans, atheists et al with the same brush. These "Asian" rapists who collude together in Northern towns rarely seem to come from Indian origin do they?
The BBC article does give the national origins of the perpetrators.
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
Yes the BBC gives origins of the accused, although so what really? They are British now, what does it matter where there parents came from? Why is it so difficult to say these men are Muslims rather than skirt around the word? It doesn't mean all Muslim men are rapists, people don't have to be soft soaped or taken for idiots. It was white Christians who ruined America for the natives, and were mostly to blame for slavery; I am a white Christian, but don't play victim if someone points that out or feel the need to find equivalent wrong doing by people of another race or religion.
The BBC's "Three Girls" drama about Rotherham managed three hours of tv on the subject without mentioning the I or M words.
You mentioned "Indian origin" and I was merely pointing out that the origin of the men had been given.
I don't agree with you that it doesn't matter where their parents came from. It is clear that the sort of upbringing, the culture and families they came from is relevant to why they had the views they had and did what they did. These men may have a British passport but if you live in this country according to the mores and culture of your parents' country of origin, if you think of yourself as primarily Afghan or Iranian or Pakistani, if you say (as one defendant did in another similar case) that in "his country" (by which he did not mean Britain) it was ok to have sex with under-age girls, then how British are you, really? How British do you think you are? It does seem as if some men are British when it suits them and some other nationality when they can use it to justify behaviour which is a crime and utterly abhorrent to decent people, whatever their religion.
"The Betrayed Girls" documentary is very good indeed, if utterly depressing.
I've been taking a look at James Chappers Twitter feed just now.
I presume he's not trying to win people over to his side of the argument.
It seems that Leavers don't like it up 'em. Most of the headbangers are unwinnable to his side of the argument so he may as well give them the home truths unvarnished.
I reckon most leavers are past caring about the feelings of those who cant deal with being on the losing side for once, if they ever think about it at all. They probably dont even think of themselves as "leavers". People who bang on and on about the referendum result look, to most normal people, the same as Kippers did in 2009
Agree. I spent months trying to be polite and hoping they'd grow up but it just hasn't happened. What strikes me as most baffling is the tactic of insisting Brexit is collapsing / Britain is in crisis / the economy is falling over and over again, as if people will actually believe it because it's repeated often enough.
That is the remain headbangers way. Live in denial.
I made a comment earlier about how any centre party needed to identify what it was for as well as what it was against. I thought that begged the question so I've had a go at drafting something up. What would the mission statement of a new centre ground party look like? How about something like this:
"Seventy five years ago, the Beveridge Report was issued. Lord Beveridge identified five giant evils: squalor, ignorance, want, idleness, and disease. His report set the basis of the post-war settlement for Britain.
The challenges facing Britain are very different today, but those five giant evils remain. Britain should rededicate itself to slaying them. To this end, the Beveridge Party sets out its guiding principles, as follows:
1. Britain belongs to its people. As such, we should all be able to enjoy every opportunity that the country has to offer, no matter who we are or where we come from. Most people are hardworking and honest. In return, we must respect each other, no matter who they are or where they come from.
2. Britain does best when it works as closely as possible with its international friends and worst when it turns its back on them. This is not just true as a matter of narrow economic self-interest, it is also true of how Britain can exercise moral leadership.
3. The state is sometimes the solution and sometimes the problem. Government shouldn't get in the way of everyday life unless everyday life isn't working. Then it should act decisively.
4. Everyday life doesn't work when only the rich can make effective use of the freedoms that Britain has to offer. We need to make sure those freedoms are properly available to everyone.
5. Britain should work for everyone. That means encouraging successful enterprise and having a proper safety net for the unlucky. Neither is optional. Everyone is entitled to a roof over their heads, everyone is entitled to be cared for when they need it, everyone is entitled to an education. Everyone benefits when a business is successful in an open market.
6. Saying that Britain should work for everyone also means helping everyone have a real chance of achieving their aspirations. Honest workers must get a fair share of the nation's wealth and opportunities.
Governments should be judged not by ideology but by how happy and fulfilled its citizens are. Right now, Britain is divided, directionless and unhappy. The Beveridge Party has much work to do."
Sounds like the Liberal Democrats, without all the mockery from the PB Tories and the authoritarian Labourites. Does that Beveridge statement not translate into Lib Dem policies?
Tube bombings, soldier beheadings, suicide bombers at kids concerts, machete wielding on the streets of London and thousands of gang rapes of teenage girls. Brexit will have to go some to be as bad a decision for the country as mass Islamic immigration, but the elites seem to prefer to moan about the former.
Not being seen to admit you were wrong cant be that important?
I agree it's surprising, but Brexit affects elites with second homes in Tuscany far more than does any of the above. Not many Guardian columnists live in Rochdale.
Guardian columnists describe claims of Muslim men targetting white girls as "dubious"
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the selection of white girls was to avoid abusing the daughters of their own friends, relations and community members. It's not an enormous distinction I grant you. I just think anyone on the right needs to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I've been taking a look at James Chappers Twitter feed just now.
I presume he's not trying to win people over to his side of the argument.
It seems that Leavers don't like it up 'em. Most of the headbangers are unwinnable to his side of the argument so he may as well give them the home truths unvarnished.
I reckon most leavers are past caring about the feelings of those who cant deal with being on the losing side for once, if they ever think about it at all. They probably dont even think of themselves as "leavers". People who bang on and on about the referendum result look, to most normal people, the same as Kippers did in 2009
Agree. I spent months trying to be polite and hoping they'd grow up but it just hasn't happened. What strikes me as most baffling is the tactic of insisting Brexit is collapsing / Britain is in crisis / the economy is falling over and over again, as if people will actually believe it because it's repeated often enough.
That is the remain headbangers way. Live in denial.
Living in denial is too mild. They've dreamt up an alternate reality.
If I were a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian or atheist Asian I wouldn't be happy with that description
If Roman Catholic immigrants were constantly gang raping young Asian girls in an Islamic country, I think I would find it unfair if the press of that country described the perpetrators as "Europeans", tarring Jews, Anglicans, atheists et al with the same brush. These "Asian" rapists who collude together in Northern towns rarely seem to come from Indian origin do they?
The BBC article does give the national origins of the perpetrators.
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
Re your 2nd paragraph, they think the girls are worthless pieces of trash because they are not Muslims.
That may be so. It does not answer my question. How can sex - a wonderful activity - possibly be enjoyable in such circumstances? Bluntly, if one wants an orgasm there are easier - and surely more enoyable - ways of achieving one than raping a drugged child?
(I realise I may have lived a sheltered life so apologies in advance if this is ruining anyone's evening.)
Sounds like the Liberal Democrats, without all the mockery from the PB Tories and the authoritarian Labourites. Does that Beveridge statement not translate into Lib Dem policies?
I'm sure every party in all the countries in the world would claim those principles translate into their policies, but none of them seem to be right. Who could argue with 'happy and fulfilled' citizens? Stalin defined his goal in almost the exact same terms, creating 'the happiest country in the world' etc. Maybe the problem is about objective constraints that make programmes pleasing everybody impossible. Maybe ideology is important for translating vague desires for a better country into practical actions. You're never more ideological than when you claim not to be and all that...
Tube bombings, soldier beheadings, suicide bombers at kids concerts, machete wielding on the streets of London and thousands of gang rapes of teenage girls. Brexit will have to go some to be as bad a decision for the country as mass Islamic immigration, but the elites seem to prefer to moan about the former.
Not being seen to admit you were wrong cant be that important?
I agree it's surprising, but Brexit affects elites with second homes in Tuscany far more than does any of the above. Not many Guardian columnists live in Rochdale.
Guardian columnists describe claims of Muslim men targetting white girls as "dubious"
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the selection of white girls was to avoid abusing the daughters of their own friends, relations and community members. It's not an enormous distinction I grant you. I just think anyone on the right needs to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
Tube bombings, soldier beheadings, suicide bombers at kids concerts, machete wielding on the streets of London and thousands of gang rapes of teenage girls. Brexit will have to go some to be as bad a decision for the country as mass Islamic immigration, but the elites seem to prefer to moan about the former.
Not being seen to admit you were wrong cant be that important?
I agree it's surprising, but Brexit affects elites with second homes in Tuscany far more than does any of the above. Not many Guardian columnists live in Rochdale.
Guardian columnists describe claims of Muslim men targetting white girls as "dubious"
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the selection of white girls was to avoid abusing the daughters of their own friends, relations and community members. It's not an enormous distinction I grant you. I just think anyone on the right needs to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
Then came the Falklands War and it’s not often appreciated that not only did it save Margaret Thatcher
That's my clear recollection too. The Falklands War and Thatcher's approach produced a very unsavoury and disturbing jingoism in the right wing press and then in the population as a whole. Thatcher's popularity rocketed and at the time I remember wondering whether she had risked all those soldiers and money for the sake of her party and her own skin rather than for the country.
Out of interest, why is jingoism "unsavoury" and "disturbing".
When one's own territory is invaded by a country whose leadership have about as much democratic mandate as a haddock, how is it jingoistic to respond to defend oneself?
It's as natural a reaction as it is to slap a wasp if it lands on your arm.
Why is it ugly to take pride in where you are from? The people you grew up around? The culture that shaped you?
Jingoism, according to the dictionary, is a belief in "my country right or wrong" often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country [rather than support for diplomacy and negotiation]. It is not the same as patriotism, but patriotism can turn into jingoism and intolerance very quickly. It was evident around the time of the Falklands War, fed by the tabloids as ever, and was very disturbing to me and lots of others. The BBC tried to provide an objective account and was roundly condemned, including by Thatcher. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11684868/Margaret-Thatcher-papers-BBC-assisted-the-enemy-during-the-Falklands-War.html
What a lovely dictionary.
What part of our defence of the Falklands, a territory where 98% of the population wish to remain British, in a circumstance where they were attacked and subjugated to invasion by an unelected and undemocratic military junta, are you objecting to?
If I were a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian or atheist Asian I wouldn't be happy with that description
If Roman Catholic immigrants were constantly gang raping young Asian girls in an Islamic country, I think I would find it unfair if the press of that country described the perpetrators as "Europeans", tarring Jews, Anglicans, atheists et al with the same brush. These "Asian" rapists who collude together in Northern towns rarely seem to come from Indian origin do they?
The BBC article does give the national origins of the perpetrators.
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
Re your 2nd paragraph, they think the girls are worthless pieces of trash because they are not Muslims.
That may be so. It does not answer my question. How can sex - a wonderful activity - possibly be enjoyable in such circumstances? Bluntly, if one wants an orgasm there are easier - and surely more enoyable - ways of achieving one than raping a drugged child?
(I realise I may have lived a sheltered life so apologies in advance if this is ruining anyone's evening.)
Some people like sexually dominating people they find inferior
Tube bombings, soldier beheadings, suicide bombers ites seem to prefer to moan about the former.
Not being seen to admit you were wrong cant be that important?
I agree it's surprising, but Brexit affects elites with second homes in Tuscany far more than does any of the above. Not many Guardian columnists live in Rochdale.
Guardian columnists describe claims of Muslim men targetting white girls as "dubious"
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the selection of white girls was to avoid abusing the daughters of their own friends, relations and community members. It's not an enormous distinction I grant you. I just think anyone on the right needs to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
When details of the Rotherham abuse came out I recall hearing an interview where someone said that there were also many Moslem girls who were victims, but they and their families were not coming forward.
Tube bombings, soldier beheadings, suicide bombers at kids concerts, machete wielding on the streets of London and thousands of gang rapes of teenage girls. Brexit will have to go some to be as bad a decision for the country as mass Islamic immigration, but the elites seem to prefer to moan about the former.
Not being seen to admit you were wrong cant be that important?
I agree it's surprisingmany Guardian columnists live in Rochdale.
Guardian columnists describe claims of Muslim men targetting white girls as "dubious"
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the eeds to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
You might well be right.
Why would they need to rape 14 year old Muslim girls when they can force them into marriage against their will then make them wear weird costumes in public so no one else looks at them?
Same thought process, insecure males must dominate. Only when it's Muslim girls the religion legitimises it
I've been taking a look at James Chappers Twitter feed just now.
I presume he's not trying to win people over to his side of the argument.
It seems that Leavers don't like it up 'em. Most of the headbangers are unwinnable to his side of the argument so he may as well give them the home truths unvarnished.
I reckon most leavers are past caring about the feelings of those who cant deal with being on the losing side for once, if they ever think about it at all. They probably dont even think of themselves as "leavers". People who bang on and on about the referendum result look, to most normal people, the same as Kippers did in 2009
Agree. I spent months trying to be polite and hoping they'd grow up but it just hasn't happened. What strikes me as most baffling is the tactic of insisting Brexit is collapsing / Britain is in crisis / the economy is falling over and over again, as if people will actually believe it because it's repeated often enough.
Indeed.
And just how bad the negotiations are going. The EU have us over a barrel etc.
I've been taking a look at James Chappers Twitter feed just now.
I presume he's not trying to win people over to his side of the argument.
It seems that Leavers don't like it up 'em. Most of the headbangers are unwinnable to his side of the argument so he may as well give them the home truths unvarnished.
I reckon most leavers are past caring about the feelings of those who cant deal with being on the losing side for once, if they ever think about it at all. They probably dont even think of themselves as "leavers". People who bang on and on about the referendum result look, to most normal people, the same as Kippers did in 2009
Agree. I spent months trying to be polite and hoping they'd grow up but it just hasn't happened. What strikes me as most baffling is the tactic of insisting Brexit is collapsing / Britain is in crisis / the economy is falling over and over again, as if people will actually believe it because it's repeated often enough.
Indeed.
And just how bad the negotiations are going. The EU have us over a barrel etc.
Bottles not enough for Juncker these days - he gets his booze by the barrel?
And still the £350m winds up the Brexiteers more than anything else...
Scott, Scott, Scott.
We threw out the £350m figure, and your side responded with 'No, we only send them £280m a week' as if that was OK. Remain played right in to Leave's hands.
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the eeds to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
You might well be right.
Why would they need to rape 14 year old Muslim girls when they can force them into marriage against their will then make them wear weird costumes in public so no one else looks at them?
Same thought process, insecure males must dominate. Only when it's Muslim girls the religion legitimises it
Being forced into marriage (and therefore sex) against your will is rape.
Girls and women are being abused and, despite having any number of laws against such abuse, we have not investigated this properly let alone taken action against the perpetrators until recently. Really rooting this out will take a great deal of concerted effort over a number of years. Do the police and other authorities have the means and will to do this? I hope so.
How we go about tacking the abuse hidden within Asian-origin communities I don't know. But the effort must be made.
If I were a Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Christian or atheist Asian I wouldn't be happy with that description
If Roman Catholic immigrants were constantly gang raping young Asian girls in an Islamic country, I think I would find it unfair if the press of that country described the perpetrators as "Europeans", tarring Jews, Anglicans, atheists et al with the same brush. These "Asian" rapists who collude together in Northern towns rarely seem to come from Indian origin do they?
The BBC article does give the national origins of the perpetrators.
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
It makes me feel sick. Such self absorption and indifference to your victim is completely psychotic.
Interesting thread, but I sincerely doubt anyone will be daft enough to form a breakaway third party. Certainly not whilst there will be opportunities to regain control of the Conservative and Labour parties in the very near future.
It is a mistake to assume that because some people are responding to the constant barrage of negative news stories on the process of Brexit with concern, that they have fallen in love with Osborne and Co. Or that they actually now like the EU. This party of 'dull competence' as someone once described it, with Blair, Osborne and other assorted grotesques would be like a parasite leaving its host and and displaying it's weak, jellied, form.
Interesting thread, but I sincerely doubt anyone will be daft enough to form a breakaway third party. Certainly not whilst there will be opportunities to regain control of the Conservative and Labour parties in the very near future.
It is a mistake to assume that because some people are responding to the constant barrage of negative news stories on the process of Brexit with concern, that they have fallen in love with Osborne and Co. Or that they actually now like the EU. This party of 'dull competence' as someone once described it, with Blair, Osborne and other assorted grotesques would be like a parasite leaving its host and and displaying it's weak, jellied, form.
I don't think there is a constituency in the UK that Blair would win now. He is entirely unpalatable except to our @Jonathan, of course...
Tube bombings, soldier beheadings, suicide bombers at kids concerts, machete wielding on the streets of London and thousands of gang rapes of teenage girls. Brexit will have to go some to be as bad a decision for the country as mass Islamic immigration, but the elites seem to prefer to moan about the former.
Not being seen to admit you were wrong cant be that important?
I agree it's surprising, but Brexit affects elites with second homes in Tuscany far more than does any of the above. Not many Guardian columnists live in Rochdale.
Guardian columnists describe claims of Muslim men targetting white girls as "dubious"
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the selection of white girls was to avoid abusing the daughters of their own friends, relations and community members. It's not an enormous distinction I grant you. I just think anyone on the right needs to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the eeds to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger o I think the next big scandal in this or willing to protect these British girls.
You might well be right.
Why would they need to rape 14 year old Muslim girls when they can force them into marriage against their will then make them wear weird costumes in public so no one else looks at them?
Same thought process, insecure males must dominate. Only when it's Muslim girls the religion legitimises it
Being forced into marriage (and therefore sex) against your will is rape.
Girls and women are being abused and, despite having any number of laws against such abuse, we have not investigated this properly let alone taken action against the perpetrators until recently. Really rooting this out will take a great deal of concerted effort over a number of years. Do the police and other authorities have the means and will to do this? I hope so.
How we go about tacking the abuse hidden within Asian-origin communities I don't know. But the effort must be made.
The 14yr old Muslim girls married off to old men they've never met are the Islamic equivalent of the drugged white girls made to have sex with the same old men, except the drug is religion not alcohol or pot. The way to stop it is for the authorities to grow some bollocks and call it out for what it is rather than pretend it's a widespread problem amongst all religions as they did this year re forced marriage of teenage girls
It's not the next big scandal it's been one for decades
Tube bombings, soldier beheadings, suicide bombers at kids concerts, machete wielding on the streets of London and thousands of gang rapes of teenage girls. Brexit will have to go some to be as bad a decision for the country as mass Islamic immigration, but the elites seem to prefer to moan about the former.
Not being seen to admit you were wrong cant be that important?
I agree it's surprising, but Brexit affects elites with second homes in Tuscany far more than does any of the above. Not many Guardian columnists live in Rochdale.
Guardian columnists describe claims of Muslim men targetting white girls as "dubious"
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the selection of white girls was to avoid abusing the daughters of their own friends, relations and community members. It's not an enormous distinction I grant you. I just think anyone on the right needs to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
Interesting thread, but I sincerely doubt anyone will be daft enough to form a breakaway third party. Certainly not whilst there will be opportunities to regain control of the Conservative and Labour parties in the very near future.
It is a mistake to assume that because some people are responding to the constant barrage of negative news stories on the process of Brexit with concern, that they have fallen in love with Osborne and Co. Or that they actually now like the EU. This party of 'dull competence' as someone once described it, with Blair, Osborne and other assorted grotesques would be like a parasite leaving its host and and displaying it's weak, jellied, form.
I don't think there is a constituency in the UK that Blair would win now. He is entirely unpalatable except to our @Jonathan, of course...
I'm on holiday, keep me out of it.
(But you're right Blair still beats any PM that has followed. A remarkably low hurdle of course. It's been down hill all the way. A trend that sees no sign of reversing. Alas.)
Interesting thread, but I sincerely doubt anyone will be daft enough to form a breakaway third party. Certainly not whilst there will be opportunities to regain control of the Conservative and Labour parties in the very near future.
It is a mistake to assume that because some people are responding to the constant barrage of negative news stories on the process of Brexit with concern, that they have fallen in love with Osborne and Co. Or that they actually now like the EU. This party of 'dull competence' as someone once described it, with Blair, Osborne and other assorted grotesques would be like a parasite leaving its host and and displaying it's weak, jellied, form.
Sorry, wrong use of an apostrophe in the last sentence.
And still the £350m winds up the Brexiteers more than anything else...
Scott, Scott, Scott.
We threw out the £350m figure, and your side responded with 'No, we only send them £280m a week' as if that was OK. Remain played right in to Leave's hands.
Interesting thread, but I sincerely doubt anyone will be daft enough to form a breakaway third party. Certainly not whilst there will be opportunities to regain control of the Conservative and Labour parties in the very near future.
It is a mistake to assume that because some people are responding to the constant barrage of negative news stories on the process of Brexit with concern, that they have fallen in love with Osborne and Co. Or that they actually now like the EU. This party of 'dull competence' as someone once described it, with Blair, Osborne and other assorted grotesques would be like a parasite leaving its host and and displaying it's weak, jellied, form.
I don't think there is a constituency in the UK that Blair would win now. He is entirely unpalatable except to our @Jonathan, of course...
I'm on holiday, keep me out of it.
(But you're right Blair still beats any PM that has followed. A remarkably low hurdle of course. It's been down hill all the way. A trend that sees no sign of reversing. Alas.)
The central New Labour conceit was the old Croslandite idea that 'the economic problem has been solved', growth would be secure and steady from here on out and all the old socialist goals could be had by just taxing these ever-expanding revenues just a little. The tragedy of Blair is that he dodged out before 2008 revealed what a rotten system he'd been maintaining.
Can I just say looking at the World Championships that it is a very pleasant summer evening in Edinburgh with many people eating outside even now. Maybe London does not pay enough taxes after all.
And still the £350m winds up the Brexiteers more than anything else...
Scott, Scott, Scott.
We threw out the £350m figure, and your side responded with 'No, we only send them £280m a week' as if that was OK. Remain played right in to Leave's hands.
Precisely. Dumbest response ever.
It's easy to mock but there were bigger issues at stake. Last June our curry was in serious peril. You don't hear about this anymore because it was saved because the British public voted with quiet determination to save their curry.
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the selection of white girls was to avoid abusing the daughters of their own friends, relations and community members. It's not an enormous distinction I grant you. I just think anyone on the right needs to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
This is very possible.
Open your eyes! It's called forced marriage
That is part of the problem. But not all of it. You may have a marriage where there is consent but can still have abuse within that marriage eg coercive control, rape, assault etc. There are some brave Asian women who have talked about it but there has been very little focus on it by the authorities. At some point, I hope, this will change and we may end up being as shocked and horrified as we have been at the Rochdales and Rotherhams. That's why I think it will be the next scandal - not that it isn't already happening - but that it hasn't yet forced its way into our national consciousness, becoming front page news etc.
And still the £350m winds up the Brexiteers more than anything else...
Scott, Scott, Scott.
We threw out the £350m figure, and your side responded with 'No, we only send them £280m a week' as if that was OK. Remain played right in to Leave's hands.
Precisely. Dumbest response ever.
It's easy to mock but there were bigger issues at stake. Last June our curry was in serious peril. You don't hear about this anymore because it was saved because the British public voted with quiet determination to save their curry.
That would be the curry made by those "students" who seem to find their studies less than all consuming?
Can I just say looking at the World Championships that it is a very pleasant summer evening in Edinburgh with many people eating outside even now. Maybe London does not pay enough taxes after all.
It has been raining solidly and heavily since this morning in London. It is cold and horrible.
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I
This is very possible.
Open your eyes! It's called forced marriage
That is part of the problem. But not all of it. You may have a marriage where there is consent but can still have abuse within that marriage eg coercive control, rape, assault etc. There are some brave Asian women who have talked about it but there has been very little focus on it by the authorities. At some point, I hope, this will change and we may end up being as shocked and horrified as we have been at the Rochdales and Rotherhams. That's why I think it will be the next scandal - not that it isn't already happening - but that it hasn't yet forced its way into our national consciousness, becoming front page news etc.
14 year olds can't consent to marrying old men. Anything that happens in those marriages is abuse. But they happen and we let them happen because of cultural sensitivity, to the point that we don't mention which religion is responsible for the problem we pretend it's all encompassing
Can I just say looking at the World Championships that it is a very pleasant summer evening in Edinburgh with many people eating outside even now. Maybe London does not pay enough taxes after all.
It has been very pleasant all day in Edinburgh. I had lunch outside too
Can I just say looking at the World Championships that it is a very pleasant summer evening in Edinburgh with many people eating outside even now. Maybe London does not pay enough taxes after all.
It has been raining solidly and heavily since this morning in London. It is cold and horrible.
Interesting thread, but I sincerely doubt anyone will be daft enough to form a breakaway third party. Certainly not whilst there will be opportunities to regain control of the Conservative and Labour parties in the very near future.
It is a mistake to assume that because some people are responding to the constant barrage of negative news stories on the process of Brexit with concern, that they have fallen in love with Osborne and Co. Or that they actually now like the EU. This party of 'dull competence' as someone once described it, with Blair, Osborne and other assorted grotesques would be like a parasite leaving its host and and displaying it's weak, jellied, form.
I don't think there is a constituency in the UK that Blair would win now. He is entirely unpalatable except to our @Jonathan, of course...
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning a blind eye to abuse of girls of Asian origin within these communities, precisely because it is within the "community" and because of a culture of silence and not dishonouring the family or community.
I
This is very possible.
Open your eyes! It's called forced marriage
That is part of the problem. But not all of it. You may have a marriage where there is consent but can still have abuse within that marriage eg coercive control, rape, assault etc. There are some brave Asian women who have talked about it but there has been very little focus on it by the authorities. At some point, I hope, this will change and we may end up being as shocked and horrified as we have been at the Rochdales and Rotherhams. That's why I think it will be the next scandal - not that it isn't already happening - but that it hasn't yet forced its way into our national consciousness, becoming front page news etc.
14 year olds can't consent to marrying old men. Anything that happens in those marriages is abuse. But they happen and we let them happen because of cultural sensitivity, to the point that we don't mention which religion is responsible for the problem we pretend it's all encompassing
Agree re 14 year olds. Abuse also happens when the woman is an adult. We should not ignore that abuse. Agree that "cultural/religious sensitivity" has been used to justify inaction and should not be.
I wish I had the answers for how to get from where we are to where we should be.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
Since the motive behind the attacks appears to me to be the opportunity to pursue any sordid sexual fantasy with no threat of recrimination, I find it more likely that the eeds to choose words carefully to avoid being accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I wonder whether we're not in danger of turning
You might well be right.
Why would they need to rape 14 year old Muslim girls when they can force them into marriage against their will then make them wear weird costumes in public so no one else looks at them?
Same thought process, insecure males must dominate. Only when it's Muslim girls the religion legitimises it
Being forced into marriage (and therefore sex) against your will is rape.
Girls and women are being abused and, despite having any number of laws against such abuse, we have not investigated this properly let alone taken action against the perpetrators until recently. Really rooting this out will take a great deal of concerted effort over a number of years. Do the police and other authorities have the means and will to do this? I hope so.
How we go about tacking the abuse hidden within Asian-origin communities I don't know. But the effort must be made.
You may find this article by Ruzwana Bashir interesting:
I think violent and sexual abuse is reasonably common in this community. A burka is a great method of control and isolation by males motivated by such things, and also good for disguising bruises etc.
I suspect that there are a number of women quietly overjoyed that their uncles/cousins/fathers/husbands are being locked away. I cannot believe that these brutes return home as doting and loving family members. It is quite possible that the abuse of girls within the community is even more prevalent than the abuse of these girls in care.
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
Do you think they were targeting white girls? I think they were deliberately doing outside their own community (for obvious reasons), but that's slightly different.
They do seem to take a fancy to white girls in particular. I would say they were targeting them yes.
accused of trying to stir up racist alarm.
I
I
This is very possible.
Open your eyes! It's called forced marriage
That is part of the problem. But not all of it. You may have a marriage where there is consent but can still have abuse within that marriage eg coercive control, rape, assault etc. There are some brave Asian women who have talked about it but there has been very little focus on it by the authorities. At some point, I hope, this will change and we may end up being as shocked and horrified as we have been at the Rochdales and Rotherhams. That's why I think it will be the next scandal - not that it isn't already happening - but that it hasn't yet forced its way into our national consciousness, becoming front page news etc.
14 year olds can't consent to marrying old men. Anything that happens in those marriages is abuse. But they happen and we let them happen because of cultural sensitivity, to the point that we don't mention which religion is responsible for the problem we pretend it's all encompassing
Agree re 14 year olds. Abuse also happens when the woman is an adult. We should not ignore that abuse. Agree that "cultural/religious sensitivity" has been used to justify inaction and should not be.
I wish I had the answers for how to get from where we are to where we should be.
The answer is to tell Muslims that they can't be Muslims if they want to live here, but that ship sailed a long time ago
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
And back in the real world, the UK is leaving the EU.
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
You're so right, how I wish we'd lost!
Your friend Nige would have been in his element if you'd lost 52-48. It would still have sent shock-waves because of the close result and he'd have kept his platform trying to whip up animosity towards the EU across Europe and America.
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
You're so right, how I wish we'd lost!
Your friend Nige would have been in his element if you'd lost 52-48. It would still have sent shock-waves because of the close result and he'd have kept his platform trying to whip up animosity towards the EU across Europe and America.
But, and I know this is a little subtle, we'd not be leaving the EU....
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
You're so right, how I wish we'd lost!
Your friend Nige would have been in his element if you'd lost 52-48. It would still have sent shock-waves because of the close result and he'd have kept his platform trying to whip up animosity towards the EU across Europe and America.
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
You're so right, how I wish we'd lost!
Your friend Nige would have been in his element if you'd lost 52-48. It would still have sent shock-waves because of the close result and he'd have kept his platform trying to whip up animosity towards the EU across Europe and America.
And still the £350m winds up the Brexiteers more than anything else...
Scott, Scott, Scott.
We threw out the £350m figure, and your side responded with 'No, we only send them £280m a week' as if that was OK. Remain played right in to Leave's hands.
Precisely. Dumbest response ever.
It's easy to mock but there were bigger issues at stake. Last June our curry was in serious peril. You don't hear about this anymore because it was saved because the British public voted with quiet determination to save their curry.
Well the EU banned Bombay Duck back in the late 90's.
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
You're so right, how I wish we'd lost!
Your friend Nige would have been in his element if you'd lost 52-48. It would still have sent shock-waves because of the close result and he'd have kept his platform trying to whip up animosity towards the EU across Europe and America.
You're probably right, but we won
I wonder which outcome Nige would have preferred.
He may well have been banking on losing, and UKIP gaining an SNP like following on the back of it. But I don't see why that matters to me!
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
You're so right, how I wish we'd lost!
Your friend Nige would have been in his element if you'd lost 52-48. It would still have sent shock-waves because of the close result and he'd have kept his platform trying to whip up animosity towards the EU across Europe and America.
You're probably right, but we won
I wonder which outcome Nige would have preferred.
Presumably there are lots of posts from williamglenn preceding the result routing for a Leave win, given his certainty that his cause is saved because if it...
You set the tone by posting lazy nonsense in the OP, so you shouldn't complain about being corrected with the actual (easily checkable) facts.
The Alliance was bottom of the polls before the Falklands War began, and was bottom of the poll at the 1983 GE on a share that halved. That share was accurately predicted by MORI just before the election. The Alliance was fizzling by January 1982 because they were already squabbling over who was going to contest which easily winnable seat they were sure to win (and who can forget "go back to your constituencies and prepare for government"?).
As a result it lost 20 points of its poll share, a feat unmatched by any party for a further 35 years.
Who cares what happened in the London locals? You might just as well say Labour did well in the Bootle locals so was clearly in good shape to win the next GE.
Well, I don't need any lessons in "lazy nonsense" from the master or mistress of it.
Local elections matter because they set the tone for the national scene at least for a while. The 1995 Conservative leadership contest was the direct result of your beloved party losing 2000 seats in a single night, a feat never bettered or even equalled since (well until 2019 perhaps).
The figures you put up earlier showed the three parties to be level within margin of error (or did your forensic mind forget that little nuance ?).
You seem to be arguing the Falklands was irrelevant and that David Steel cost the Alliance the 1983 election by using a sentence.
Come back when you've learned a little about politics and history and I'll continue your education.
You're too ignorant to educate anyone. The other day you were posting about how there'd be a Conservative leadership challenge.
You've basically posted a lot of incoherent unsubstantiated rubbish. There is a connection between this quality of thought and LD GE performance.
As a founder member of the SDP my slightly dodgy recollection was that it came together at a time when the Tories were obsessed with monetarism to the exclusion of the real world and Labour was obsessed with nationalisation despite the small detail of the country being on the verge of bankruptcy.
You are right about your memory being dodgy, at least. The SDP started because the Gang of Four thought the hard left had taken over the Labour party. That was what the Limehouse Declaration said.
Yes, how is that inconsistent with what I have said? Labour was going through its Bennite phase and was determined to nationalise large tracts of the private sector. This despite the previous Labour government having to call in the IMF. The view was that Labour were not giving an alternative to Thatcher when an alternative was needed. I think that was right although it did have the curious effect of moving Labour back to some sort of sanity again under Kinnock.
The SDP issue wasn't just about nationalisation. It was about CND, Militant, and all sorts of other stuff. All four of the Gang had been in at least one government that was gung ho for nationalisation, and not a lot had been privatised by January 1981 anyway, so that cannot have been the mainspring of their move.
It certainly is for the Brexiteers. Scraping a win in the referendum will finish them off in British politics for good. Brexit has been cruelly exposed to reality.
You're so right, how I wish we'd lost!
Your friend Nige would have been in his element if you'd lost 52-48. It would still have sent shock-waves because of the close result and he'd have kept his platform trying to whip up animosity towards the EU across Europe and America.
You're probably right, but we won
I wonder which outcome Nige would have preferred.
Presumably there are lots of posts from williamglenn preceding the result routing for a Leave win, given his certainty that his cause is save because if it...
Discussing Brexit on here has become like playing football w the kids over the park - you go in goal and let them score else you get all day tantrums. No wonder so many people don't bother posting anymore
As a founder member of the SDP my slightly dodgy recollection was that it came together at a time when the Tories were obsessed with monetarism to the exclusion of the real world and Labour was obsessed with nationalisation despite the small detail of the country being on the verge of bankruptcy.
You are right about your memory being dodgy, at least. The SDP started because the Gang of Four thought the hard left had taken over the Labour party. That was what the Limehouse Declaration said.
Yes, how is that inconsistent with what I have said? Labour was going through its Bennite phase and was determined to nationalise large tracts of the private sector. This despite the previous Labour government having to call in the IMF. The view was that Labour were not giving an alternative to Thatcher when an alternative was needed. I think that was right although it did have the curious effect of moving Labour back to some sort of sanity again under Kinnock.
The SDP issue wasn't just about nationalisation. It was about CND, Militant, and all sorts of other stuff. All four of the Gang had been in at least one government that was gung ho for nationalisation, and not a lot had been privatised by January 1981 anyway, so that cannot have been the mainspring of their move.
I know. I was there. I am struggling to see why you are seeking to make an argument out of this.
Comments
"We must use the religion of Islam to educate these people."
I find it utterly bewildering why any man would do what these men did. How can one possibly enjoy sex with a drugged drunk unwilling frightened child? How does one not feel disgusted at oneself?
No it didn't.
According to Mark Pack's UK polling history (https://www.markpack.org.uk/opinion-polls/), the Conservatives' worst position was in a MORI poll in December 1981, which had the parties at 23 (Con), 23.5 (Lab), and 50.5 (SDP/L), i.e. 27.5 points behind the leader.
By March 1982, these figures were 34, 34, and 30. The SDP lost its lead and went from first place to last before the Argentine invasion. The Conservatives went from last to joint first.
By the end of April, it was still 35/30/33. This went to 51/24/23 in June, but stabilised at scores like 42, 30, 22 thereafter all the way to the election.
The Alliance was where Labour voters went if they despaired of Labour but they never persuaded any Conservatives, pace your anecdata.
That's my clear recollection too. The Falklands War and Thatcher's approach produced a very unsavoury and disturbing jingoism in the right wing press and then in the population as a whole. Thatcher's popularity rocketed and at the time I remember wondering whether she had risked all those soldiers and money for the sake of her party and her own skin rather than for the country.
Out of interest, why is jingoism "unsavoury" and "disturbing".
When one's own territory is invaded by a country whose leadership have about as much democratic mandate as a haddock, how is it jingoistic to respond to defend oneself?
It's as natural a reaction as it is to slap a wasp if it lands on your arm.
Why is it ugly to take pride in where you are from? The people you grew up around? The culture that shaped you?
Jingoism, according to the dictionary, is a belief in "my country right or wrong" often shown in enthusiastic support for a war against another country [rather than support for diplomacy and negotiation]. It is not the same as patriotism, but patriotism can turn into jingoism and intolerance very quickly. It was evident around the time of the Falklands War, fed by the tabloids as ever, and was very disturbing to me and lots of others. The BBC tried to provide an objective account and was roundly condemned, including by Thatcher.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/11684868/Margaret-Thatcher-papers-BBC-assisted-the-enemy-during-the-Falklands-War.html
What a lovely dictionary.
What part of our defence of the Falklands, a territory where 98% of the population wish to remain British, in a circumstance where they were attacked and subjugated to invasion by an unelected and undemocratic military junta, are you objecting to?
Ok so 98% of gibralter want to remiain in the EU so how should we defend then?
The BBC's "Three Girls" drama about Rotherham managed three hours of tv on the subject without mentioning the I or M words.
There's one of those adverts in case anybody's interested. 'Centrist' parties seem to proliferate as much as the Trotskyist sects, with far less success or sustained contribution to political culture. Why not just join the Whig Party (http://whigs.uk/)?
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/jingoism
Oxford Dictionary
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/jingoism
Merriam Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jingoism
Have a look.
Disaffected Tory MP's? They too are considering the possibility of another GE. Especially since being stuck in their constituencies for 3 months getting their ears burnt about the incompetencies of May, her cabinet, Brexit and whatever other failings are coming to light, daily. They will know that another leadership election to replace May will not be considered legitimate by the electorate. Will they take a chance to retain their seat in the best club in London by switching parties at this stage of the game, losing their local party support and vote? Only if they are particularly stupid, and there aren't that many who are.
I don't agree with you that it doesn't matter where their parents came from. It is clear that the sort of upbringing, the culture and families they came from is relevant to why they had the views they had and did what they did. These men may have a British passport but if you live in this country according to the mores and culture of your parents' country of origin, if you think of yourself as primarily Afghan or Iranian or Pakistani, if you say (as one defendant did in another similar case) that in "his country" (by which he did not mean Britain) it was ok to have sex with under-age girls, then how British are you, really? How British do you think you are? It does seem as if some men are British when it suits them and some other nationality when they can use it to justify behaviour which is a crime and utterly abhorrent to decent people, whatever their religion.
"The Betrayed Girls" documentary is very good indeed, if utterly depressing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b09179g5/sunday-morning-live-series-8-episode-8
Surprising accord! Hitchens says Leave lied, Miller interjects "So did Remain"
(I realise I may have lived a sheltered life so apologies in advance if this is ruining anyone's evening.)
I think the next big scandal in this space will be the hidden abuse that such girls and women suffer, possibly from the same men who indulge in this sort of sordid activity, and why British law and British authorities are not able or willing to protect these British girls.
Until then, do enjoy being a traitor your country.
Same thought process, insecure males must dominate. Only when it's Muslim girls the religion legitimises it
And just how bad the negotiations are going. The EU have us over a barrel etc.
On a bus. I mean. The audacity. A BUS!
We threw out the £350m figure, and your side responded with 'No, we only send them £280m a week' as if that was OK. Remain played right in to Leave's hands.
Girls and women are being abused and, despite having any number of laws against such abuse, we have not investigated this properly let alone taken action against the perpetrators until recently. Really rooting this out will take a great deal of concerted effort over a number of years. Do the police and other authorities have the means and will to do this? I hope so.
How we go about tacking the abuse hidden within Asian-origin communities I don't know. But the effort must be made.
It is a mistake to assume that because some people are responding to the constant barrage of negative news stories on the process of Brexit with concern, that they have fallen in love with Osborne and Co. Or that they actually now like the EU. This party of 'dull competence' as someone once described it, with Blair, Osborne and other assorted grotesques would be like a parasite leaving its host and and displaying it's weak, jellied, form.
It's not the next big scandal it's been one for decades
(But you're right Blair still beats any PM that has followed. A remarkably low hurdle of course. It's been down hill all the way. A trend that sees no sign of reversing. Alas.)
The central New Labour conceit was the old Croslandite idea that 'the economic problem has been solved', growth would be secure and steady from here on out and all the old socialist goals could be had by just taxing these ever-expanding revenues just a little. The tragedy of Blair is that he dodged out before 2008 revealed what a rotten system he'd been maintaining.
You are not helping........
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/30/nspcc-reports-large-rise-rise-in-forced-marriage-counselling-for-children
I wish I had the answers for how to get from where we are to where we should be.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/29/-sp-untold-story-culture-of-shame-ruzwana-bashir
I think violent and sexual abuse is reasonably common in this community. A burka is a great method of control and isolation by males motivated by such things, and also good for disguising bruises etc.
I suspect that there are a number of women quietly overjoyed that their uncles/cousins/fathers/husbands are being locked away. I cannot believe that these brutes return home as doting and loving family members. It is quite possible that the abuse of girls within the community is even more prevalent than the abuse of these girls in care.
https://twitter.com/jameschappers/status/888416778598199296
Little evidence of that "in the real World"
You've basically posted a lot of incoherent unsubstantiated rubbish. There is a connection between this quality of thought and LD GE performance.
* Essexit, 08:15pm 2017-08-09 * Essexit, 10:00pm 2017-08-09