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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Jacob Rees-Mogg heads for the favourite slot in the TMay succe

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited August 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Jacob Rees-Mogg heads for the favourite slot in the TMay successor betting as the DDavis decline continues

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  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    This is Silly-Season ultranincompoopism-trollism-sillyism-clickbaitism. There is no realistic possibility of Jacob Rees-Mogg wanting to be leader, or of him being a candidate, or of Conservative MPs voting for him to be leader, or of party members voting for him to be leader.

    On Brexit (and indeed on various other things) he is, as they say, "sound", but he has no front-bench experience and no sign of wanting to get any.

    DOWN WITH GRAVITY!
    UP WITH LEVITY!
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Third!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited August 2017
    It is hard to take JRM's candidature seriously for the reasons listed by JohnLoony (and, to be fair, in the headline piece). The question might be which candidate is most likely to inherit JRM's support and his supporters.

    A more realistic future may lie in television, either as the new Boris on panel shows, or the new Brian Walden.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    It is hard to take JRM's candidature seriously for the reasons listed by JohnLoony (and, to be fair, in the headline piece). The question might be which candidate is most likely to inherit JRM's support and his supporters.

    A more realistic future may lie in television, either as the new Boris on panel shows, or the new Brian Walden.

    Or the Sir Keith Joseph de nos jours?

    But to whom?
  • It is hard to take JRM's candidature seriously for the reasons listed by JohnLoony (and, to be fair, in the headline piece). The question might be which candidate is most likely to inherit JRM's support and his supporters.

    A more realistic future may lie in television, either as the new Boris on panel shows, or the new Brian Walden.

    He looks to be the end game for what is clearly an anti-EU party heading to the right. The Tory Corbyn, no less.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    It is hard to take JRM's candidature seriously for the reasons listed by JohnLoony (and, to be fair, in the headline piece). The question might be which candidate is most likely to inherit JRM's support and his supporters.

    A more realistic future may lie in television, either as the new Boris on panel shows, or the new Brian Walden.

    Or the Sir Keith Joseph de nos jours?

    But to whom?
    Sir Keith Joseph was a great (to some) thinker who could not run a whelk stall. Surely his natural successor is Michael Gove.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    It is hard to take JRM's candidature seriously for the reasons listed by JohnLoony (and, to be fair, in the headline piece). The question might be which candidate is most likely to inherit JRM's support and his supporters.

    A more realistic future may lie in television, either as the new Boris on panel shows, or the new Brian Walden.

    He looks to be the end game for what is clearly an anti-EU party heading to the right. The Tory Corbyn, no less.

    Is that all of it though, or is JRM picking up some of the support for an eccentric that used to be Boris's? Is Moggism more than Millifandom?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    It is hard to take JRM's candidature seriously for the reasons listed by JohnLoony (and, to be fair, in the headline piece). The question might be which candidate is most likely to inherit JRM's support and his supporters.

    A more realistic future may lie in television, either as the new Boris on panel shows, or the new Brian Walden.

    Or the Sir Keith Joseph de nos jours?

    But to whom?
    Sir Keith Joseph was a great (to some) thinker who could not run a whelk stall. Surely his natural successor is Michael Gove.
    I have never understood why running a whelk stall is supposed to be that easy. For starters, the product can easily go ‘off’!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    The Moggster is quite right. Parties in office do not select leaders who are not already tried and tested in the great offices of State. That means the leadership will be between Hammond, Boris, Rudd and, arguably, Davis. If the Tories were daft enough to have another election with Theresa as leader then it would be a different story because they would then be in opposition. But even then....
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    german election campaign something of a damp squib as former coalition partners find they cant really attack each other due to shared responsibility for previous administration

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundestagswahl/bundestagswahl-warum-die-themen-dieses-wahlkampfes-nicht-zuenden-15149796.html
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780


    german election campaign something of a damp squib as former coalition partners find they cant really attack each other due to shared responsibility for previous administration

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundestagswahl/bundestagswahl-warum-die-themen-dieses-wahlkampfes-nicht-zuenden-15149796.html

    How does that work out for the junior party in the Coalition again?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071


    german election campaign something of a damp squib as former coalition partners find they cant really attack each other due to shared responsibility for previous administration

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/bundestagswahl/bundestagswahl-warum-die-themen-dieses-wahlkampfes-nicht-zuenden-15149796.html

    Coalition didn't stop the Conservatives squishing the LibDems like a bug on the pavement :)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    current state of parties

    CDU 40%
    SPD 24%
    Linke, FDP, Greens, AfD all on 8%

    so called Jamaica government ( black, yellow green ) forecast

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/f-a-z-wahlbarometer-so-wollen-die-deutschen-waehlen-14406977.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    DavidL said:

    The Moggster is quite right. Parties in office do not select leaders who are not already tried and tested in the great offices of State. That means the leadership will be between Hammond, Boris, Rudd and, arguably, Davis. If the Tories were daft enough to have another election with Theresa as leader then it would be a different story because they would then be in opposition. But even then....

    Horrible double negative there.

    More seriously, you're right but you are also presupposing no change in said great offices. We are one unguarded comment away from a new Foreign Secretary. And we're talking about Boris 'I will add Papua New Guinea to my global itinerary of apology' Johnson.

    We could also consider Justice as one of the great offices, as it is a merger of the Lord Chancellor's role with aspects of the Home Office, both of them great offices of state. I mention this because while I do not see David Liddington as a contender, I do see him as someone who could be easily moved. A Leaver there, possibly with a party responsibility on the side, could easily move into the frame.

    At least I hope so, because if Boris resigns his realistic replacement would be Liam Fox.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Arlington National Cemetry is set in Lee's former estate

    are they going to dig the bodies up ?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Incidentally, I was running through the list of Prime Ministers and excluding Churchill - who was First Lord of the Admiralty in 1940 but had also previously been Chancellor - who do you think was what last PM who was not either the acknowledged Leader of the Opposition or a holder of a Great Office of State?

    It is a very easy answer, when you think about it.

    Hint - he had once commanded the second-largest army in Europe.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    The Moggster is quite right. Parties in office do not select leaders who are not already tried and tested in the great offices of State. That means the leadership will be between Hammond, Boris, Rudd and, arguably, Davis. If the Tories were daft enough to have another election with Theresa as leader then it would be a different story because they would then be in opposition. But even then....

    Horrible double negative there.

    More seriously, you're right but you are also presupposing no change in said great offices. We are one unguarded comment away from a new Foreign Secretary. And we're talking about Boris 'I will add Papua New Guinea to my global itinerary of apology' Johnson.

    We could also consider Justice as one of the great offices, as it is a merger of the Lord Chancellor's role with aspects of the Home Office, both of them great offices of state. I mention this because while I do not see David Liddington as a contender, I do see him as someone who could be easily moved. A Leaver there, possibly with a party responsibility on the side, could easily move into the frame.

    At least I hope so, because if Boris resigns his realistic replacement would be Liam Fox.
    Quite liked the double negative myself. Kind of reflects my view on the options.

    Normally, I would agree that change was possible but with the exception of Liddington I don't think our zombie PM is powerful enough to remove any of the other players. There seems to be an armed truce in the party at the moment and I think it will stay that way until May goes.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, I was running through the list of Prime Ministers and excluding Churchill - who was First Lord of the Admiralty in 1940 but had also previously been Chancellor - who do you think was what last PM who was not either the acknowledged Leader of the Opposition or a holder of a Great Office of State?

    It is a very easy answer, when you think about it.

    Hint - he had once commanded the second-largest army in Europe.

    The Duke? Surprised you have to go that far back.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited August 2017
    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.

    Edit - PS you mean secession not succession.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    DavidL said:


    Quite liked the double negative myself. Kind of reflects my view on the options.

    Normally, I would agree that change was possible but with the exception of Liddington I don't think our zombie PM is powerful enough to remove any of the other players. There seems to be an armed truce in the party at the moment and I think it will stay that way until May goes.

    Remove? No.

    Lose one to events? Possibly, even probably.

    I think Hammond will stay put and Rudd is genuinely loyal to May. But one more Boris gaffe and I think he'll decide the £2 million a year he could make on the after dinner circuit will be too tempting to refuse any more.

    Re double negatives, no accounting for taste.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.
    The South politicians jumped through an enormous number of mental hoops to justify keeping slavery.

    In the end it came down to them really liking having slaves and seeing black people as sub-human.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, I was running through the list of Prime Ministers and excluding Churchill - who was First Lord of the Admiralty in 1940 but had also previously been Chancellor - who do you think was what last PM who was not either the acknowledged Leader of the Opposition or a holder of a Great Office of State?

    It is a very easy answer, when you think about it.

    Hint - he had once commanded the second-largest army in Europe.

    Arguably Beaconsfield wasn't de facto leader of the opposition when he finally became PM. Although he had been chancellor for a couple of months a decade before...

    Wellington probably
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
    better whiskey :-)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
    better whiskey :-)
    Sacrilege.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
    better whiskey :-)
    Sacrilege.
    Would be easier to get rid of the North if we could sell it as a job lot
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    The Tory party could not commit suicide more effectively than to make Mogg its leader. His voice is dripping with wealth, privilege and out of touch with ordinary people-ness. He would be a gift for the Marxist class politics of Corbyn.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
    better whiskey :-)
    Sacrilege.
    Would be easier to get rid of the North if we could sell it as a job lot
    racist

    you must think the Irish are stupid
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
    better whiskey :-)
    Sacrilege.
    Would be easier to get rid of the North if we could sell it as a job lot
    Who would want that either? A bunch of moaning gits who think we should give them extra money because otherwise they might start killing each other again.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    In St Helens, there is a statue to Keiron Cunningham who played for Saints. He captained them and coached them up to earlier this way. But results were bad, so they sacked him. They're now doing better under a new Australian coach.

    I suppose they'll have to pull the statue down now?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
    better whiskey :-)
    Sacrilege.
    Would be easier to get rid of the North if we could sell it as a job lot
    Who would want that either? A bunch of moaning gits who think we should give them extra money because otherwise they might start killing each other again.
    you have no appreciation od scottish culture :-)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    CD13 said:

    In St Helens, there is a statue to Keiron Cunningham who played for Saints. He captained them and coached them up to earlier this way. But results were bad, so they sacked him. They're now doing better under a new Australian coach.

    I suppose they'll have to pull the statue down now?

    Does that not rather depend? Are there a bunch of racists and neo-Nazis using his statue as a symbol that there is something ok and indeed rather glorious about their perverted views? If not it may be less of an issue.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, my fellow Moggsters.

    Just under two weeks until F1 returns.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr f,

    "He would be a gift for the Marxist class politics of Corbyn."

    They are very similar. Their selling point is that do what the say on the tin. However, JRM looks more comfortable under questioning. Jezza struggles to hold in his inner mardy arse, although he is getting better at it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited August 2017
    Charles said:

    ydoethur said:

    Incidentally, I was running through the list of Prime Ministers and excluding Churchill - who was First Lord of the Admiralty in 1940 but had also previously been Chancellor - who do you think was what last PM who was not either the acknowledged Leader of the Opposition or a holder of a Great Office of State?

    It is a very easy answer, when you think about it.

    Hint - he had once commanded the second-largest army in Europe.

    Arguably Beaconsfield wasn't de facto leader of the opposition when he finally became PM. Although he had been chancellor for a couple of months a decade before...

    Wellington probably
    Disraeli was Chancellor in 1868 when he became PM for the first time. (And he wasn't Beaconsfield in 1874 either - that came later.)

    You are right, it was Wellington in 1828.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    He disagreed with the civil war, wanted the country to stay intact, and was offered command in the Union army, but decided he must follow his home state of Virginia.

    And it's secession, by the way.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr L,

    Rugby league is subjective, like all sports. When it comes to arguing about respective merits, it can get rather feisty.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    same can be said of Michael Collins. does that mean we can have the Republic of Ireland back ?
    Why would we want it?
    better whiskey :-)
    Sacrilege.
    Of course it;s better whiskEy. The Scottish product is ‘whisky’. IMHO good Irish whiskey is superior to the American product, although my grandson, christened Jack Daniel, is building quite a collection of his namesake’s product.
    Good Scotch whisky is of course to any other similarly named product. And yes, I’ve tried ‘good’ Japanese products.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
    I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.

    Edit - PS you mean secession not succession.
    Snap. History is written by the victors.

    And most people don't research or think, just echo.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.
    The South politicians jumped through an enormous number of mental hoops to justify keeping slavery.

    In the end it came down to them really liking having slaves and seeing black people as sub-human.
    You accused someone of treason. I was pointing out why you were wrong - or at least, if he was a traitor, by your own definition you are a traitor too and a worse one.

    In reply you make an accurate but totally irrelevant point to deflect attention from your blunder.

    And then, to misquote the great Kevin O'Higgins, the SNP wonder why they are becoming a laughing stock.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor...
    Maybe so... if Scotland were to declare war on the rest of the UK, in defense of slavery - not just in Scotland itself, but for the ability to extend the institution in the rest of the UK.

    I'm not convinced your comparison holds up.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.

    Edit - PS you mean secession not succession.
    Snap. History is written by the victors.

    And most people don't research or think, just echo.
    Actually Lee has always been well served by Union historians. Although they still pretend Washington was a better general (which he certainly wasn't) few would deny Lee second place.

    But he is not necessarily well served by contemporary politicians of any stripe.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:

    Culturally inconvenient statues coming down ?
    I think we can all agree that was the right thing to do in Palmyra. The band and Baez's cover should probably be banned too.

    Surely it was also wrong to remove all those Communist statues after the wall fell down, Saddam's statues in Iraq and obviously wrong to remove statues of Kim Jung In after he gets deposed?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.

    Edit - PS you mean secession not succession.
    Snap. History is written by the victors.

    And most people don't research or think, just echo.
    Actually Lee has always been well served by Union historians. Although they still pretend Washington was a better general (which he certainly wasn't) few would deny Lee second place.

    But he is not necessarily well served by contemporary politicians of any stripe.
    Though he did serve as inspiration and hero to generations of lost causers.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Those whom the Gods wish to destroy... and you can see why they would wish to destroy the Conservatives at present.

    The Mogglodytes are numerous.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited August 2017
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter we so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.
    The South politicians jumped through an enormous number of mental hoops to justify keeping slavery.

    In the end it came down to them really liking having slaves and seeing black people as sub-human.
    You accused someone of treason. I was pointing out why you were wrong - or at least, if he was a traitor, by your own definition you are a traitor too and a worse one.

    In reply you make an accurate but totally irrelevant point to deflect attention from your blunder.

    And then, to misquote the great Kevin O'Higgins, the SNP wonder why they are becoming a laughing stock.
    Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.

    This is really simple.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670



    And it's secession, by the way.

    I blame autocorrect
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Nigelb said:

    Though he did serve as inspiration and hero to generations of lost causers.

    Maybe the Americans could transfer the statues of him to Edinburgh? :smile:

    On your other point, I disagree. While it would be unfair to compare Sturgeon to Davis, she suffers next to Lee. He opposed secession, emancipated his slaves and took no action against the Union until Virginia was itself invaded. I would add that all but one state in the south voted for secessionist candidates in 1860, although of course such a ballot was hardly representative given the bias of the franchise towards big landowners.

    If he was a traitor, so is she.

    I will admit however that I picked that comparison precisely because I knew how much it would annoy Alistair.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Those whom the Gods wish to destroy... and you can see why they would wish to destroy the Conservatives at present.

    The Mogglodytes are numerous.

    The appeal of Mogg is that he is articulate, and a true believer in the Brexit cause. Poshness and personal eccentricity are no bar.

    The problem for the Brexiteers is that everyone else on their list is either lukewarm at best or severely compromised by past incompetence.

    Populist revolutions get taken over by the fanatics, so JRM is a reasonable punt. Lack of suitability is never a bar in leadership contests.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Alistair said:


    Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.

    This is really simple.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.

    He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.

    Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.

    Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    On topic. Darent bet at the moment :(.

    Lay Mogg if you can, his price is a nonsense
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Alistair said:



    And it's secession, by the way.

    I blame autocorrect
    My autocorrect knows what 'secession' is, although delightfully it offers me sex first. Is this a sign that secessionists end up screwing themselves?

    Anyway, I have work to do. Have a good morning!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though he did serve as inspiration and hero to generations of lost causers.

    Maybe the Americans could transfer the statues of him to Edinburgh? :smile:

    On your other point, I disagree. While it would be unfair to compare Sturgeon to Davis, she suffers next to Lee. He opposed secession, emancipated his slaves and took no action against the Union until Virginia was itself invaded. I would add that all but one state in the south voted for secessionist candidates in 1860, although of course such a ballot was hardly representative given the bias of the franchise towards big landowners.

    If he was a traitor, so is she.
    With all due respect, folderol.
    Lee himself admitted that secession was equivalent to revolution. A large percentage of Virginians, including a portion of Lee's family, remained loyal to the United States. Lee's personal 'honour' inspired him to fight in defense of slavery.

    While Sturgeon might have played fast and loose as a politician, as far as I'm aware her behaviour has remained within constitutional bounds.

    There is really no comparison.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Rees-Mogg? Really??

    No. Just no.

    The Tories' only chance is to behave like grown ups. They're currently making a pig's ear of this over Brexit. No need to make matters worse by replacing the mediocre May with someone even less likely to widen the Tories' appeal.

    It's as if our political parties are in a bizarre competition to see which of them can win a self-harming competition.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Not very au fait with the US Civil War (most of my knowledge comes from a four part Bernard Cornwell series, although my favourite historian, Dodge, was a colonel on the North's side), but it's an interesting discussion.

    The identity aspect does seem critical, as it has in more recent political times.
  • Turd blossom.

    That's what Mogg is.

    I'm going to cry like a disgraced televangelist if the final two in the next Tory leadership contest are David Davis and Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    I'll spoil my ballot paper, unless they allow a write in candidate.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Who do you want as next leader?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    Those whom the Gods wish to destroy... and you can see why they would wish to destroy the Conservatives at present.

    The Mogglodytes are numerous.

    Usual story with Cons: if JRM can get to the final two who face the membership then he has an exceedingly good chance.

    So, the question is, what is his support amongst MPs?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2017
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though he did serve as inspiration and hero to generations of lost causers.

    Maybe the Americans could transfer the statues of him to Edinburgh? :smile:

    On your other point, I disagree. While it would be unfair to compare Sturgeon to Davis, she suffers next to Lee. He opposed secession, emancipated his slaves and took no action against the Union until Virginia was itself invaded. I would add that all but one state in the south voted for secessionist candidates in 1860, although of course such a ballot was hardly representative given the bias of the franchise towards big landowners.

    If he was a traitor, so is she.

    I will admit however that I picked that comparison precisely because I knew how much it would annoy Alistair.
    Not as much as the Scottish (and Scots-Irish) roots of the KKK...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/z3xhhv4
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Dr Fox,

    I'm not sure why we rush to put statues up in the first place. I'd never put a statue up to anyone living. It's a good job Leeds didn't honour Jimmy Saville in the same way. And surely Boudicca was a war criminal? Murdering most of Colchester was a touch extreme.

    All 'heroes' can go through a revisionist phase. I remember discussing this very fact with RL fans, He's been a good player for you, I said, but hold off on the statue. He might go into management. Always a bad move
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.
    The South politicians jumped through an enormous number of mental hoops to justify keeping slavery.

    In the end it came down to them really liking having slaves and seeing black people as sub-human.
    Or to put it another way you have no answers to the original point made.
  • Mr. Eagles, better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Who do you want as next leader?

    Anyone but Boris, David Davis, The disgraced Liam Fox, Jacob Rees-Mogg for starters.

    Theresa May has well and truly fucked the Tory party.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    felix said:

    Alistair said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    You are unfortunately not very clear on the reality of the situation. In the South, the States were regarded as countries. Therefore Lee would have been, in his own eyes, a traitor if he had stayed with the Union. This even though he was opposed to secession and his house was next to Washington.

    The South's legal apparatchiks also held that the US was a union of states, not a country, so any state could legally secede (in which incidentally they were wrong, but it doesn't alter the fact that this was what they thought).

    Calling Lee a traitor would be the equivalent of calling Nicola Sturgeon a traitor. Which so far nobody has done so far as I know. Indeed she would be a worse traitor as she has actively tried to secede, he merely bowed to he will of others.
    The South politicians jumped through an enormous number of mental hoops to justify keeping slavery.

    In the end it came down to them really liking having slaves and seeing black people as sub-human.
    Or to put it another way you have no answers to the original point made.
    Wut?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, indeed. But don't let Cameron or Osborne off the hook on that score. The Remain campaign was feeble, and if Osborne hadn't buggered off so soon he'd probably be PM already.

    I'd suggest trying to line up behind someone rather than just Not X, Y, Z (and W too).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    Depends on what side you favoured.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though he did serve as inspiration and hero to generations of lost causers.

    Maybe the Americans could transfer the statues of him to Edinburgh? :smile:

    On your other point, I disagree. While it would be unfair to compare Sturgeon to Davis, she suffers next to Lee. He opposed secession, emancipated his slaves and took no action against the Union until Virginia was itself invaded. I would add that all but one state in the south voted for secessionist candidates in 1860, although of course such a ballot was hardly representative given the bias of the franchise towards big landowners.

    If he was a traitor, so is she.

    I will admit however that I picked that comparison precisely because I knew how much it would annoy Alistair.
    Not as much as the Scottish (and Scots-Irish) roots of the KKK...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/z3xhhv4
    Never a mention of the slavery used against the Scots as their English oppressors sent them indentured to be slaves in the same cotton fields.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    CD13 said:

    Dr Fox,

    I'm not sure why we rush to put statues up in the first place. I'd never put a statue up to anyone living. It's a good job Leeds didn't honour Jimmy Saville in the same way. And surely Boudicca was a war criminal? Murdering most of Colchester was a touch extreme.

    All 'heroes' can go through a revisionist phase. I remember discussing this very fact with RL fans, He's been a good player for you, I said, but hold off on the statue. He might go into management. Always a bad move

    True - yet I walk past a statue of Boudicca twice a day and there's a primary school named after her! Funny old world.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though he did serve as inspiration and hero to generations of lost causers.

    Maybe the Americans could transfer the statues of him to Edinburgh? :smile:

    On your other point, I disagree. While it would be unfair to compare Sturgeon to Davis, she suffers next to Lee. He opposed secession, emancipated his slaves and took no action against the Union until Virginia was itself invaded. I would add that all but one state in the south voted for secessionist candidates in 1860, although of course such a ballot was hardly representative given the bias of the franchise towards big landowners.

    If he was a traitor, so is she.
    With all due respect, folderol.
    Lee himself admitted that secession was equivalent to revolution. A large percentage of Virginians, including a portion of Lee's family, remained loyal to the United States. Lee's personal 'honour' inspired him to fight in defense of slavery.

    While Sturgeon might have played fast and loose as a politician, as far as I'm aware her behaviour has remained within constitutional bounds.

    There is really no comparison.
    Morning Nigel. Surely you do not expect measured opinions on here, these right wing zealots hate Scotland and will miss no opportunity to malign it or its real (SNP ) politicians.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    Rees-Mogg is more a potential Tory opposition leader than PM for me so I agree with him on that. I think the next Tory leader and PM will be either Boris or Davis but Davis could be tainted by compromises in the Brexit talks. However those who diss Rees-Mogg as too much of a maverick and too extreme should remember the same was said of Corbyn
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    Depends on what side you favoured.
    Treason never prospers, for if it succeeds, it ceases to be treason.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    It is hard to take JRM's candidature seriously for the reasons listed by JohnLoony (and, to be fair, in the headline piece). The question might be which candidate is most likely to inherit JRM's support and his supporters.

    A more realistic future may lie in television, either as the new Boris on panel shows, or the new Brian Walden.

    Or the Sir Keith Joseph de nos jours?

    But to whom?
    Priti Patel?
  • Mr. Eagles, indeed. But don't let Cameron or Osborne off the hook on that score. The Remain campaign was feeble, and if Osborne hadn't buggered off so soon he'd probably be PM already.

    I'd suggest trying to line up behind someone rather than just Not X, Y, Z (and W too).

    George knew he'd never be Tory leader, the Leadbangers would have made it impossible.

    A fie on Theresa May, like a Jihadi convert she's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and she doesn't care who she takes down with her.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    barely 6 months into office Trump is juggling impeachment, Nuclear war, and a Nazi uprising but on the bright side he's meeting expectations
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    current state of parties

    CDU 40%
    SPD 24%
    Linke, FDP, Greens, AfD all on 8%

    so called Jamaica government ( black, yellow green ) forecast

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/f-a-z-wahlbarometer-so-wollen-die-deutschen-waehlen-14406977.html

    The CDU will not do a deal with the Greens over the AfD when both have seats in the Bundestag, so if not CDU FDP it will be another Grand Coalition given Merkel will not deal with the AfD
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    619 said:

    twitter.com/James_LRR/status/896835724946792448

    Who is "James Turner"?

    I've gone to that twitter page and read it but he doesn't seem to be anybody of any relevance to anything. He's gone to a wedding recently. And likes music I've never heard of.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    HYUFD said:

    current state of parties

    CDU 40%
    SPD 24%
    Linke, FDP, Greens, AfD all on 8%

    so called Jamaica government ( black, yellow green ) forecast

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/f-a-z-wahlbarometer-so-wollen-die-deutschen-waehlen-14406977.html

    The CDU will not do a deal with the Greens over the AfD when both have seats in the Bundestag, so if not CDU FDP it will be another Grand Coalition given Merkel will not deal with the AfD
    If the CDU and FDP win 48% between them, and the left wing parties win 40%, then a CDU/FDP coalition should be straightforward.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    These comparisons between Brexit and jihadis are really distasteful.

    Amazing how people are talking about the Tories needing to widen their appeal after getting over 14m votes. All they need to do is assuage enough people in marginals not to vote for Corbo.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    619 said:

    barely 6 months into office Trump is juggling impeachment, Nuclear war, and a Nazi uprising but on the bright side he's meeting expectations

    He is hardly meeting your expectations, given that you told us about 10,000 times last year that he wasn't going to win.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Ishmael_Z said:

    619 said:

    barely 6 months into office Trump is juggling impeachment, Nuclear war, and a Nazi uprising but on the bright side he's meeting expectations

    He is hardly meeting your expectations, given that you told us about 10,000 times last year that he wasn't going to win.
    Indeed. Hilary's administration isn't going too well, eh?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:


    Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.

    This is really simple.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.

    He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.

    Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.

    Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
    I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anyway
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    current state of parties

    CDU 40%
    SPD 24%
    Linke, FDP, Greens, AfD all on 8%

    so called Jamaica government ( black, yellow green ) forecast

    http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/f-a-z-wahlbarometer-so-wollen-die-deutschen-waehlen-14406977.html

    The CDU will not do a deal with the Greens over the AfD when both have seats in the Bundestag, so if not CDU FDP it will be another Grand Coalition given Merkel will not deal with the AfD
    If the CDU and FDP win 48% between them, and the left wing parties win 40%, then a CDU/FDP coalition should be straightforward.
    We will see but if the AdD win seats and there is no CDU FDP majority it will complicate matters, the CSU in particular would favour a deal with the AfD over any deal with the Greens
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Mr. Eagles, better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Who do you want as next leader?

    Anyone but Boris, David Davis, The disgraced Liam Fox, Jacob Rees-Mogg for starters.

    Theresa May has well and truly fucked the Tory party.
    I think they must have taught widely differing theories of causation at the law schools we respectively attended. Cameron fucked the Tory party; TMay is merely evidence that he did so.
  • HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:


    Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.

    This is really simple.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.

    He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.

    Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.

    Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
    I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anyway
    If he was so anti slavery how come he was a slave holder himself?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:


    Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.

    This is really simple.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.

    He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.

    Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.

    Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
    I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anyway
    Angering political opponents is the whole point.
  • Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    Alistair said:

    FPT - I have no dog in the fight of America's cultural wars, and the violence of the weekend looked appalling. But I will say this: I detest the removal of statues of historical figures who don't measure up to today's standards.

    Robert Lee was the Confederacy's leading general, and an extremely skilled military tactician. There's quite a bit about him as a person that was interesting too. He was a key figure in the history of the US, and the South in particular. In some respects he was a "nicer" man than many of the North's politicians and generals.

    I would teach children about him, and not instigate cultural vandalism.

    There are remarkably few figures who'd make the cut in the UK, and we'd be pulling down most statues of Cromwell, Henry VIII and most of those on the plinths in Traflagar Square if we followed the same approach.

    Robert Lee didn't measure up to the standards of the time.

    He was a traitor to the Republic who commanded the forces of an illegal succession that killed hundreds of thousands.
    Depends on what side you favoured.
    Treason never prospers, for if it succeeds, it ceases to be treason.
    True if it succeeds you become a patriot. Nobody calls Washington a traitor.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    edited August 2017
    They should replace the statues of Robert E Lee with statues of Ulysses S Grant.

    Lee isn't fit to lick the boots of Grant.

    The Old Confederacy should suck it up, they lost, plus the North paid for Reconstruction.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:


    Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.

    This is really simple.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.

    He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.

    Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.

    Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
    I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anyway
    Not exactly an abolitionist...
    ... In this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence....

    "...The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race...." - even in the context of the time, this is rather self-serving BS. The only 'necessity' was that the prosperity of the South depended almost entirely on slavery.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    Mr. Eagles, better to light a candle than curse the darkness. Who do you want as next leader?

    Anyone but Boris, David Davis, The disgraced Liam Fox, Jacob Rees-Mogg for starters.

    Theresa May has well and truly fucked the Tory party.
    I think they must have taught widely differing theories of causation at the law schools we respectively attended. Cameron fucked the Tory party; TMay is merely evidence that he did so.
    The Tories led with most polls and Cameron had much better ratings than Corbyn when Dave quit.

    May shat the bed when she called the election she said she never would.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    edited August 2017
    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    Though he did serve as inspiration and hero to generations of lost causers.

    Maybe the Americans could transfer the statues of him to Edinburgh? :smile:

    On your other point, I disagree. While it would be unfair to compare Sturgeon to Davis, she suffers next to Lee. He opposed secession, emancipated his slaves and took no action against the Union until Virginia was itself invaded. I would add that all but one state in the south voted for secessionist candidates in 1860, although of course such a ballot was hardly representative given the bias of the franchise towards big landowners.

    If he was a traitor, so is she.
    With all due respect, folderol.
    Lee himself admitted that secession was equivalent to revolution. A large percentage of Virginians, including a portion of Lee's family, remained loyal to the United States. Lee's personal 'honour' inspired him to fight in defense of slavery.

    While Sturgeon might have played fast and loose as a politician, as far as I'm aware her behaviour has remained within constitutional bounds.

    There is really no comparison.
    Morning Nigel. Surely you do not expect measured opinions on here, these right wing zealots hate Scotland and will miss no opportunity to malign it or its real (SNP ) politicians.
    Good morning, malcolm. As you're probably aware, I'm no enthusiast for Scottish independence, but I don't believe in abusing those who advocate for their reasonable beliefs.

    (edit... Well, no more than occasionally, anyway.)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    There's a small statue of Constantine the Great outside York Minster. If we're pulling down statues and monuments to those who held slaves, then we can kiss goodbye to the Romans.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    Alistair said:


    Lee was a traitor. He had taken an oath to the Republic and broke it by serving with the South.

    This is really simple.

    I have no idea what I am supposed to have been quoting (mid or otherwise) of Kevin O'Higgins.

    He had resigned his commission on refusing the command of the Union army. That ended his oath to the Union.

    Moreover his oath as a member of the Virginia militia was to defend Virginia.

    Can you not see how your points don't measure up or to be exact, apply rather better to you?
    I have no time for the far right protesters but if there was one thing guaranteed to inflame the South in the US it is trying to remove a statue of one of their most iconic figures, General Robert E Lee especially as many have pointed out he was personally anti slavery anyway
    That may well be so. But those protesting against the removal were not doing so because they wanted historical accuracy or because they were against historical revisionism. This was not a polite protest by history professors. The protestors were doing so to make a point about how they should be in charge and able to oppress others ie blacks and were doing so in the most offensive way possible. And they seemed determined on violence and did use it, as a result of which a young woman has been killed and others injured.

    They may have had a legal right to protest and be offensive. But others are entitled to object and protest also. And there is a moral difference between those who use their right to free speech to champion Nazism and the oppression of blacks and those who use this same right to protest against these things. The former are morally disgraceful. Trump failed to make - and perhaps even understand - this distinction in his comments on the violence. That is why he is rightly being criticised.

    I was not a big fan of Obama TBH. But he was right when he said that slavery was America's original sin. Its consequences are being played out on the streets of Virginia.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    On topic, JRM sounds as though he has been reading his Julius Caesar (the Shakespeare version...).
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    HYUFD said:

    Rees-Mogg is more a potential Tory opposition leader than PM for me so I agree with him on that. I think the next Tory leader and PM will be either Boris or Davis but Davis could be tainted by compromises in the Brexit talks. However those who diss Rees-Mogg as too much of a maverick and too extreme should remember the same was said of Corbyn

    To me, Boris comes across as a posh buffoon and JRM comes across as an other-worldly dilettante. I cannot envision either of them as capable leaders.

    Still, I am not a Tory Party member, so I guess if the Tories think one of these two is the way forward then elect one of them leader and see what the voters think.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    edited August 2017

    There's a small statue of Constantine the Great outside York Minster. If we're pulling down statues and monuments to those who held slaves, then we can kiss goodbye to the Romans.

    Constantine was not leader of a republic which held as self evident "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...", Mr.D.

    (Edit) Nor are his statues emblems for lost causers and white supremacists.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. B, Republican Rome was also heavily into slavery.

    As was the African economy before the British Empire arrived on the scene.

    Read here yesterday Napoleon reintroduced it to France.
This discussion has been closed.