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  • Charles said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    What you miss about Cameron and Osborne is they fundamentally governed for London (which had a positive impact on macro statistics).

    A true One NationTorymanages to bridge the differing needs of the country and the metropolis. With the Big Society Cameron got close but didn't have the courage to push it through.

    I like some of their policies, especially on the social side (the economics were not great as they didn't fix the underlying problems - all credit to @Alanbrooke for calling that early). But their mindset and focus on one group in society was all wrong

    The Northern Powerhouse?
  • HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    A campaign run by the New Zealand Nationals this month warning of Labour tax rises under Jacinda Ardern helped turn a narrow poll lead into a clear lead for National when the general election results were announced on Saturday

    People need to believe they'll be hit, personally, in the pocket.

    The reason GE2017 didn't work is the Tories told voters they would be by them both on social care, and on the triple lock, and didn't bother to campaign on the economy otherwise.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    On topic great thread by @Cyclefree.

    Yesterday I idly began penning a thread which revolved around unicorns vs puppies. The unicorns that the Cons need to find to somehow rescue their electoral prospects vs the puppies promised by Lab to anyone who wants one.

    I'd love to read a thread of yours.
    That's kind unless I missed the saracasm! I have v little time so all those ideas usually end up half-done!

    (I know, if I spent less time posting individual smart-arse comments on here I would have the time to write a proper piece...)

    Winston Churchill said that he had written a long piece because he did not have time to write a short one.

    Does this apply to CycleFree?
  • HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    If the economy is going to sh*t in a basket post-Brexit, any Conservative claims of "don't vote Labour, they'll make you poorer" are going to be hard to pull off.

    I say "if" because it is of course an unknown, but don't expect the Conservatives to necessarily be able to rely on that attack line this time round.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    nielh said:

    He is not helping the EU cause. Who does he think he is
    On this point, he is calling it right. The EU maintain that they cannot trust the UK to protect EU citizens rights post Brexit. And the behaviour of the home office reinforce their position every day. I accept that for the most part they are just administrative cock ups, but that doesn't alter anything.

    Anyone who celebrates the fact that people with every right to be here lawfully, who pay taxes in this country, who have bought up children here and contribute to society are recieving unfounded threats of deportation have in my view serious psychological/empathy problems.


    The other aspect is that Guy Verhofstadt is leader of a large voting block in the Europ Parliament. Any A50 deal (inc transition) needs approval there. Hence he needs listening to. If we do not like what he says then we should prepare for the deal to fail.

    It is not so much Merkel or Macron that influence Barnier, but rather what their brief from the commission is and what can be got through the MEPs.

    So, yes his opinions do matter.
    But, if I were the UK, I'd be looking to warm up other voting blocks in the EU parliament, such as the ECR and EFDD, and some of the less ideological EPP MEPs.
    After the obnoxious behaviour of our UKIP MEPs in the parliament, we may well not many friends there left.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    Sean_F said:

    For what it's worth, I've voted Conservative in every election except 2001 when I voted Lib Dem in protest against Hague's leadership and 'save the pound' campaign, and 2017 when I voted Labour.

    When May first called the election I assumed I'd vote Lib Dem again but a few days before the election I decided this would be a cop out. I might feel embarrassed by a Corbyn government, but that's preferable to feeling ashamed of my country.

    I'd have been disappointed if Remain had won the Referendum, but hardly "ashamed of my country."

    You just have to accept that sometimes, you're in the minority.
    Your use of the word 'accept' implies that one should shut up and sit quietly by.
    But yesterdays minority might be tomorrows majority.
    That's exactly what happened to the Leave vote. Over the 40-odd years we were experiencing the joys & wonders of being in the CM/EEC/EU, it quietly grew.
  • Corbys up....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    A campaign run by the New Zealand Nationals this month warning of Labour tax rises under Jacinda Ardern helped turn a narrow poll lead into a clear lead for National when the general election results were announced on Saturday

    People need to believe they'll be hit, personally, in the pocket.

    The reason GE2017 didn't work is the Tories told voters they would be by them both on social care, and on the triple lock, and didn't bother to campaign on the economy otherwise.
    Exactly. The Tories were threatening tax rises last time so the conplete opposite of what they should be doing.

    Scrap the dementia tax and keep the triple lock and then attack Labour hard in how they would hit the average voter in their pocket, that was how the NZ Nationals overturned a narrow Labour poll lead last weekend despite being in power for 9 years
  • Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    Many congrats to your Mum and Dad - only 7 years to go for me and my dear lady
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    A Corbyn Government will be as radical as Attlee in transforming our Country IMO
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2017

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    If the economy is going to sh*t in a basket post-Brexit, any Conservative claims of "don't vote Labour, they'll make you poorer" are going to be hard to pull off.

    I say "if" because it is of course an unknown, but don't expect the Conservatives to necessarily be able to rely on that attack line this time round.
    I expect a general election to be called by the new Tory leader in 2019 or 2020 ie during the transition period before full Brexit when we are still effectively in the single market
  • Not a cult....
  • <

    The idea is fine, just the prospect of doctors competing for patients rather than vice versa requires major investment in recruitment and retention. In reality training budgets have been heavily cut in recent years. Our EU nurses have now returned home en masse, and our Trust is attempting recruitment in India and Phillipines again. The visa hurdles are very difficult though as not enough to go round.

    The idea is not fine, as the patient does not have sufficient expertise to judge whether the GP should be "voted out".

    A panel of medical peers may have that expertise.
    Most GPs are private businesses and patients have a choice like any free market.

    There are ten doctors at our GP practice and patients can choose which of them to use - unless constrained by an emergency and who is available.

    There is another practice, also with about ten doctors, which is situated opposite and patients could transfer if they are unhappy with all ten at their current GP.
  • Not a cult....

    Who isn't a cult ?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    People can vote for a party they think will ruin the country if they want to, but it's bloody stupid.

    :D:D:D

    Tory ruin or Labour ruin? From where I sit I cannot see much difference Mr Dancer.
  • Charles said:

    @TheScreamingEagles

    What you miss about Cameron and Osborne is they fundamentally governed for London (which had a positive impact on macro statistics).

    A true One NationTorymanages to bridge the differing needs of the country and the metropolis. With the Big Society Cameron got close but didn't have the courage to push it through.

    I like some of their policies, especially on the social side (the economics were not great as they didn't fix the underlying problems - all credit to @Alanbrooke for calling that early). But their mindset and focus on one group in society was all wrong

    Bullocks.

    Look at the excellent Northern Powerhouse work begun by Osborne and Cameron for starters.
    You're right to some extent, but Charles's point is valid: the Osborne/Cameron approach was to govern for London and then sprinkle baubles on the rest of the country.

    The Northern Powerhouse was a particularly big bauble and was, is, worth doing. But the shires continue to be starved of investment. In lieu of proper, ongoing funding to county councils, there's a succession of hastily-announced funds (in transport, for example) for which each council has to bid. There is no guarantee that your council will get anything.

    In reality, this approach has encouraged councils to work up short-term, whizz-bang, unproven projects rather than managing and improving a coherent highway network for the long term. Every time our county council wins one of these funds, for example, it remodels a roundabout. A few years later it'll win another fund and do another one (or, often, the same one again). Meanwhile creeping congestion gets worse and potholes aren't fixed.

    Brown's approach was no better, of course - very tightly defined funding programmes with uniform national reach but directed to some Whitehall priority or other, so councils had no option to focus spending on local priorities.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Not a cult....

    Who isn't a cult ?
    He might be a cult but he is a human cult.
  • AnneJGP said:

    Sean_F said:

    For what it's worth, I've voted Conservative in every election except 2001 when I voted Lib Dem in protest against Hague's leadership and 'save the pound' campaign, and 2017 when I voted Labour.

    When May first called the election I assumed I'd vote Lib Dem again but a few days before the election I decided this would be a cop out. I might feel embarrassed by a Corbyn government, but that's preferable to feeling ashamed of my country.

    I'd have been disappointed if Remain had won the Referendum, but hardly "ashamed of my country."

    You just have to accept that sometimes, you're in the minority.
    Your use of the word 'accept' implies that one should shut up and sit quietly by.
    But yesterdays minority might be tomorrows majority.
    That's exactly what happened to the Leave vote. Over the 40-odd years we were experiencing the joys & wonders of being in the CM/EEC/EU, it quietly grew.
    It didn't. Opposition to the EEC/EC dropped from the 1970s to the 1980s. It only started growing again in (IIRC) the late 1980s, at the time that the Maastricht debates were beginning.

    Besides, it's doubtful to say that Leave is in a majority. Certainly they put together a majority when it mattered but opinion is more-or-less equally split at the moment.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    philiph said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I reckon Corbyn's policy coup de grace before the next election will be the complete legalisation of cannabis.

    Coup de grass.
    It would be wildly popular with his base thus absolving him of any brexit related sins and would be a policy offer that the tories would be unable to match.
    Why?
    Legislation of drugs along with controls on use and registrations for hard drugs is the only sensible outcome.
    Should have happened years ago.
    The hard-line Tories (read Mrs May) blocked it in the Coalition years, as I understand it. There is no reason to imagine that they are any more sensible now.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    PB Tories turn over from BBC2 now
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Apart from actually you know leading the party.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    <

    The idea is fine, just the prospect of doctors competing for patients rather than vice versa requires major investment in recruitment and retention. In reality training budgets have been heavily cut in recent years. Our EU nurses have now returned home en masse, and our Trust is attempting recruitment in India and Phillipines again. The visa hurdles are very difficult though as not enough to go round.

    The idea is not fine, as the patient does not have sufficient expertise to judge whether the GP should be "voted out".

    A panel of medical peers may have that expertise.
    Most GPs are private businesses and patients have a choice like any free market.

    There are ten doctors at our GP practice and patients can choose which of them to use - unless constrained by an emergency and who is available.

    There is another practice, also with about ten doctors, which is situated opposite and patients could transfer if they are unhappy with all ten at their current GP.
    If someone is unhappy with their GP, they should be able to transfer (though in practice in many rural towns, there is just one GP practice, so such freedom is limited).

    But, this isn't the same as "voting out" the GP, which is what the (unnamed) Labour MPs in the Guardian were referring to.
  • Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    When my wife (then fiancée) was sending out the invitations to our wedding which she'd handmade she made an extra 4 and sent them out to invite the Queen, the Prime Minister (then Cameron), the President (then Obama) and to Disneyland to invite Mickey and Minnie Mouse.

    We got nice letters back from the Queen, the PM and Minnie and Mickey Mouse. All wishing us all the best for the wedding etc and clearly by a secretary in all cases who probably deals with that sort of thing regularly but they were all really nice letters. Unsurprisingly they all turned politely down the invitation. Obama's office was the only one not to reply.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Magic Money Tree at 21!

    Thanks Shadsy.
  • stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    A Corbyn Government will be as radical as Attlee in transforming our Country IMO
    As bad as that, huh?
  • HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    A campaign run by the New Zealand Nationals this month warning of Labour tax rises under Jacinda Ardern helped turn a narrow poll lead into a clear lead for National when the general election results were announced on Saturday


    NZ election results are at

    http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2017_preliminary/

    National party 46.0%

    Labour 35.8%

    NZF 7.5%

    GP 5.9%

    Hung Parliament with NZ First holding the balance.
  • stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    And the second question answers itself. You can't provide that level of socialism on current levels of tax, so tax would have to rise. Labour claims that it can do it through corporation tax (which would feed through to consumers or pay settlements), and higher levels of income tax. In reality, I suspect that they'd fall short of their anticipated return, taxes would be put up further (beyond Laffer curve effectiveness), government receipts would still be short and borrowing, interest rates and inflation would rise, while the Pound slumped.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Just how rich is everyone on this forum to be able to afford a Corbyn government !
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited September 2017

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    Many congrats to your Mum and Dad - only 7 years to go for me and my dear lady
    All the best to you and your wife.My dad was in the RAF in late 1956 stationed in Aden says it was a hell of a flight to get back home due to the Suez Crisis to get married .
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited September 2017

    Xenephobia is unfortunately pretty universal, to claim that the UK is at either extreme end of the spectrum gives off more than a whiff of exceptionalism.

    However to claim that e.g. Farage doesn't happily trade in xenophobia would be specious.

    There are proper data on this: for instance https://www.indy100.com/article/european-countriesracist-study-european-union-map-prejudice-survey-7893106
    (Darker blue is better on the maps). The UK comes out well in this and any other study I have seen.

    As for the euref campaign, pretty much every single "xenophobic" claim is explicable on the basis of the very simple point that if somewhere is overcrowded you don't want to add to its population. At a national level adding to population means primarily permitting immigration, and immigrants are pretty much by definition foreigners. If people say they simply don't want additional claims on social housing and the NHS and whatever, if you aren't prepared to take them at face value you need polling to show that they'd secretly be absolutely happy with current levels of net immigration if the immigrants were all white New Zealanders.

    And the other astonishingly obvious disproof of the anti-immigration = xenophobic equivalence is the fact that a large number of ethnic minority voters think immigration is too high: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/06/what-do-ethnic-minority-voters-think-about-immigration

    Do we dismiss these people as Uncle Toms, or do we dismiss the whole report as a fabrication by the virtually fascist New Statesman?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    A Corbyn Government will be as radical as Attlee in transforming our Country IMO
    That doesn't sound like much fun.
  • Magic Money Tree at 21!

    Thanks Shadsy.

    Well done that man! Sadly I didn't follow you.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Dont cook your rabbit before you catch it, and beware of all cults of personality

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY8tR0OQ1oc
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    edited September 2017
    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    If the economy is going to sh*t in a basket post-Brexit, any Conservative claims of "don't vote Labour, they'll make you poorer" are going to be hard to pull off.

    I say "if" because it is of course an unknown, but don't expect the Conservatives to necessarily be able to rely on that attack line this time round.
    I expect a general election to be called by the new Tory leader in 2019 or 2020 ie during the transition period before full Brexit when we are still effectively in the single market
    Oh, God, no. Not another one!

    FWIW, I disagree. The Tories won't do so until Brexit is done and dusted - i.e. 2021 or later.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Pulpstar said:

    Just how rich is everyone on this forum to be able to afford a Corbyn government !

    We can no longer afford Austerity, more tax give aways to Corporations and the rich
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    The fact Corbyn is as confident and assured as he is chucking around Tory attack lines is exactly why May should go. She has given them space and confidence and I cannot see how she turns it around
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    Tax rises (and spending cuts) for other people are always popular.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    Tories implementing Lab policies every week. TBF
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    edited September 2017
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    Many congrats to your Mum and Dad - only 7 years to go for me and my dear lady
    All the best to you and your wife.My dad was in the RAF in late 1956 stationed in Aden says it was a hell of a flight to get back home due to the Suez Crisis.
    Thank you - I remember the Suez crises as a schoolboy and of course the Munich air crash in 1958. Just amazing how time passes so quickly
  • Pulpstar said:

    Just how rich is everyone on this forum to be able to afford a Corbyn government !

    Depends how you calculate it. If - big if - Corbyn funds everything he's promised to, then that means one of my voluntary roles is no longer needed, so I can seek gainful employment for the time I spend on that. So it's plausible that Corbyn could hike my taxes but I end up financially better off. ("Plausible". Not necessarily "likely"...)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    When my wife (then fiancée) was sending out the invitations to our wedding which she'd handmade she made an extra 4 and sent them out to invite the Queen, the Prime Minister (then Cameron), the President (then Obama) and to Disneyland to invite Mickey and Minnie Mouse.

    We got nice letters back from the Queen, the PM and Minnie and Mickey Mouse. All wishing us all the best for the wedding etc and clearly by a secretary in all cases who probably deals with that sort of thing regularly but they were all really nice letters. Unsurprisingly they all turned politely down the invitation. Obama's office was the only one not to reply.
    That’s an awesome story! I take it the reply letters are now framed and residing in the smallest room of the house?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Great speech
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    AnneJGP said:

    Sean_F said:

    For what it's worth, I've voted Conservative in every election except 2001 when I voted Lib Dem in protest against Hague's leadership and 'save the pound' campaign, and 2017 when I voted Labour.

    When May first called the election I assumed I'd vote Lib Dem again but a few days before the election I decided this would be a cop out. I might feel embarrassed by a Corbyn government, but that's preferable to feeling ashamed of my country.

    I'd have been disappointed if Remain had won the Referendum, but hardly "ashamed of my country."

    You just have to accept that sometimes, you're in the minority.
    Your use of the word 'accept' implies that one should shut up and sit quietly by.
    But yesterdays minority might be tomorrows majority.
    That's exactly what happened to the Leave vote. Over the 40-odd years we were experiencing the joys & wonders of being in the CM/EEC/EU, it quietly grew.
    It didn't. Opposition to the EEC/EC dropped from the 1970s to the 1980s. It only started growing again in (IIRC) the late 1980s, at the time that the Maastricht debates were beginning.

    Besides, it's doubtful to say that Leave is in a majority. Certainly they put together a majority when it mattered but opinion is more-or-less equally split at the moment.
    Yes, you're right on the first count - I was forgetting it wasn't a steady change - and I totally agree with the second count.

    It will be interesting to see what does happen over the next decade or three.
  • In 'not quite where we thought we were in the queue' news..

    'Defence Secretary Michael Fallon hints government may ban new contracts with Boeing over Trump administration's Bombardier decision'

    http://tinyurl.com/ycqvf68d
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    TOPPING said:

    Great speech

    A barnstormer. Jezza knows how to campaign. He does little else.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Magic Money Tree at 21!

    Thanks Shadsy.

    Well done that man! Sadly I didn't follow you.
    No Trump ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Magic Money Tree at 21!

    Thanks Shadsy.

    Good betting, Dr Fox. :+1:
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    And the second question answers itself. You can't provide that level of socialism on current levels of tax, so tax would have to rise. Labour claims that it can do it through corporation tax (which would feed through to consumers or pay settlements), and higher levels of income tax. In reality, I suspect that they'd fall short of their anticipated return, taxes would be put up further (beyond Laffer curve effectiveness), government receipts would still be short and borrowing, interest rates and inflation would rise, while the Pound slumped.
    If all that happened, "Oh! Jeremy Corbyn" would be sung with a very different meaning.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    When my wife (then fiancée) was sending out the invitations to our wedding which she'd handmade she made an extra 4 and sent them out to invite the Queen, the Prime Minister (then Cameron), the President (then Obama) and to Disneyland to invite Mickey and Minnie Mouse.

    We got nice letters back from the Queen, the PM and Minnie and Mickey Mouse. All wishing us all the best for the wedding etc and clearly by a secretary in all cases who probably deals with that sort of thing regularly but they were all really nice letters. Unsurprisingly they all turned politely down the invitation. Obama's office was the only one not to reply.
    Lovely story glad they had the courtesy to reply , shame that Obama's office was unable to.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Corp tax to 26% lol, will have to keep the contingencies low in 2021 then !
  • Pulpstar said:

    Magic Money Tree at 21!

    Thanks Shadsy.

    Well done that man! Sadly I didn't follow you.
    No Trump ?
    Trump was my only punt. I went for it because of the Bombardier story.
  • Sean_F said:

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    A Corbyn Government will be as radical as Attlee in transforming our Country IMO
    That doesn't sound like much fun.
    Attlee was a patriot, but some of his economic policies were off-the-wall nuts.

    Thanks to him, road haulage was nationalised (WTF?), prices and incomes policies were rigid, we had rationing well into the 1950s, and some really silly long-term decisions were made, such as continuing to plan for coal in British railways due to producer interests.

    Why on earth were we still manufacturing new steam engines in 1960, when we had supersonic jet bombers and the first satellites had already been launched into space?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    Magic Money Tree at 21!

    Thanks Shadsy.

    Well done that man! Sadly I didn't follow you.
    No Trump ?
    Trump was my only punt. I went for it because of the Bombardier story.
    I followed you in, I fear the lack of 'kerching' means I've given back that tenner I won from Meeks' Florence tip :)
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    A Corbyn Government will be as radical as Attlee in transforming our Country IMO
    I know about Clement Attlee. I've read about Clement Attlee. Clement Attlee is a hero of mine. Jeremy Corbyn: you are no Clement Attlee.
  • rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    Only 5% of people earn more than £70k so increasing tax on those over £80k will affect an even smaller proportion.
  • Sean_F said:

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    A Corbyn Government will be as radical as Attlee in transforming our Country IMO
    That doesn't sound like much fun.
    I'd also expect Corbyn to massively relax immigration controls within weeks (possibly days) of taking office, which could lead to a surge of immigration.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    SeanT said:



    I confess I am now genuinely worried about Corbyn seizing power.

    How does one - ahem - go about moving capital abroad?

    It's very easy within the EU I understand.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    If the economy is going to sh*t in a basket post-Brexit, any Conservative claims of "don't vote Labour, they'll make you poorer" are going to be hard to pull off.

    I say "if" because it is of course an unknown, but don't expect the Conservatives to necessarily be able to rely on that attack line this time round.
    I expect a general election to be called by the new Tory leader in 2019 or 2020 ie during the transition period before full Brexit when we are still effectively in the single market
    Of course, that would require Jezza's blessing. He gave it before, but this time he might want some serious Brexit suffering - queues at Dover stretching up the M2, supermarkets empty of all but basic, government-issued foodstuffs - to really hammer the blame on the Tories.
  • Thanks to him, road haulage was nationalised (WTF?)

    All commercial transport was nationalised - there was nothing exceptional about road. Rail, road, water (and don't forget rail was much more significant for freight in 1948 than now; road was mostly short-haul stuff).

    It was a well-meaning attempt to run an integrated transport system. But the British Transport Commission was run by military leaders being given a nice sinecure after WWII, rather than people who actually knew about peace-time transport, and we ended up with nonsense like the BR Modernisation Plan. The principle wasn't necessarily bad, the execution was.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Trump!
  • rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    Only 5% of people earn more than £70k so increasing tax on those over £80k will affect an even smaller proportion.
    The fantasy is that doing (all of that) will fund even the tiniest proportion of the lavish spending that Corbyn and McDonnell have committed to.

    Make no mistake: if you are earning over £30k, you will feel it. Hard.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    The Tories actually got a lower voteshare with wealthy ABs than skilled working class C2s for the first time last time and plenty of those ABs will be hit by Corbyn"s income tax rise. A large number of even average families will also be hit by Corbyn's plan to reverse Osborne's inheritance tax cut
  • Pulpstar said:

    Corp tax to 26% lol, will have to keep the contingencies low in 2021 then !

    Such a rise - combined with all of their other crack economic suicide squad policy - could actually lead to a reduction in corporation tax receipts overall.

    Not that McDonnell would care.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Trump - style??
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    What a difference a few months make.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    stevef said:

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    And the second question answers itself. You can't provide that level of socialism on current levels of tax, so tax would have to rise. Labour claims that it can do it through corporation tax (which would feed through to consumers or pay settlements), and higher levels of income tax. In reality, I suspect that they'd fall short of their anticipated return, taxes would be put up further (beyond Laffer curve effectiveness), government receipts would still be short and borrowing, interest rates and inflation would rise, while the Pound slumped.
    If all that happened, "Oh! Jeremy Corbyn" would be sung with a very different meaning.
    I confess I am now genuinely worried about Corbyn seizing power.

    How does one - ahem - go about moving capital abroad?
    Not seizing power. Elected by the British people.



  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited September 2017
    Do I hear a Kerching!?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Sounds like Shadsy’s Christmas Bonus Fund is taking a battering this afternoon.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    Many congrats to your Mum and Dad - only 7 years to go for me and my dear lady
    All the best to you and your wife.My dad was in the RAF in late 1956 stationed in Aden says it was a hell of a flight to get back home due to the Suez Crisis.
    Thank you - I remember the Suez crises as a schoolboy and of course the Munich air crash in 1958. Just amazing how time passes so quickly
    It sure is in July 1966, I was playing outside in the garden , my mother said she called me in and sat me in front of the black and white TV as England were leading ,3 ,-2 in the world cup final.She said you might never see this again in your lifetime.I have no recall of it even though seen it hundred of times since.I think she is probably correct.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Jeremy spreading the wealth around :smiley:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    If the economy is going to sh*t in a basket post-Brexit, any Conservative claims of "don't vote Labour, they'll make you poorer" are going to be hard to pull off.

    I say "if" because it is of course an unknown, but don't expect the Conservatives to necessarily be able to rely on that attack line this time round.
    I expect a general election to be called by the new Tory leader in 2019 or 2020 ie during the transition period before full Brexit when we are still effectively in the single market
    Oh, God, no. Not another one!

    FWIW, I disagree. The Tories won't do so until Brexit is done and dusted - i.e. 2021 or later.
    No if they are sensible they will call it before ie they can commit to full Brexit in 2021 unlike Corbyn while still benefiting from being in the single market effectively when Britain goes to the polls
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    <

    The idea is fine, just the prospect of doctors competing for patients rather than vice versa requires major investment in recruitment and retention. In reality training budgets have been heavily cut in recent years. Our EU nurses have now returned home en masse, and our Trust is attempting recruitment in India and Phillipines again. The visa hurdles are very difficult though as not enough to go round.

    The idea is not fine, as the patient does not have sufficient expertise to judge whether the GP should be "voted out".

    A panel of medical peers may have that expertise.
    I absolutely agree, although poking fun, do the public have sufficient expertise to judge whether a government should be voted out either?
  • CORBYN: I WANT TO INFECT BRITAIN
  • SeanT said:

    stevef said:

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    And the second question answers itself. You can't provide that level of socialism on current levels of tax, so tax would have to rise. Labour claims that it can do it through corporation tax (which would feed through to consumers or pay settlements), and higher levels of income tax. In reality, I suspect that they'd fall short of their anticipated return, taxes would be put up further (beyond Laffer curve effectiveness), government receipts would still be short and borrowing, interest rates and inflation would rise, while the Pound slumped.
    If all that happened, "Oh! Jeremy Corbyn" would be sung with a very different meaning.
    I confess I am now genuinely worried about Corbyn seizing power.

    How does one - ahem - go about moving capital abroad?
    Not seizing power. Elected by the British people.



    And it was Brexit that brought it about. Cameron and May's legacy will be a divided and weakened country handed over to the Corbynites.
  • Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Tory campaign was hinged on the idea that Corbyn was a dog whistle for their vote. They totally overlooked that their campaign and leader was a massive recruiting sergeant for the left. I don't think they get that yet.

    I am no Corbyn fan, but he was the better of the two.

    I think they get it entirely. Every Conservative I've spoken to was horrified by the incompetence of the campaign, and gobsmacked that, as you say, even Corbyn, of all people on this earth, was able to come out as the better of the two.
    Again not sure you fully get it. It wasn't the campaign (which was bad). It was the underlying product. Both the personnel and the policies. It seemed that 2015-7 the Tories forgot everything that got them into power.

    Jonathan I do not think the Conservatives forgot but they thought Labour was finished under Corbyn and they could in essence do what they like.They took many voters for granted that they had nowhere else to go.My father a Conservative for the first time in his life refused to vote.
    That is my view
    Big g My father was a big Thatcher supporter in the 80s my mother CND , they were always were discussing politics when I was young.No wonder I felt most comfortable under Blair.Last year they had been married 60 years so I got a copy of their wedding certificate and sent it off, so they got a letter from the Queen my mum even though not a monarchist was really pleased.
    Many congrats to your Mum and Dad - only 7 years to go for me and my dear lady
    All the best to you and your wife.My dad was in the RAF in late 1956 stationed in Aden says it was a hell of a flight to get back home due to the Suez Crisis.
    Thank you - I remember the Suez crises as a schoolboy and of course the Munich air crash in 1958. Just amazing how time passes so quickly
    It sure is in July 1966, I was playing outside in the garden , my mother said she called me in and sat me in front of the black and white TV as England were leading ,3 ,-2 in the world cup final.She said you might never see this again in your lifetime.I have no recall of it even though seen it hundred of times since.I think she is probably correct.
    I am sure she is correct but what an event that was. When we scored the winning goal my rocking chair that I had at the time flipped and sent me flying over it - memories
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited September 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    If the economy is going to sh*t in a basket post-Brexit, any Conservative claims of "don't vote Labour, they'll make you poorer" are going to be hard to pull off.

    I say "if" because it is of course an unknown, but don't expect the Conservatives to necessarily be able to rely on that attack line this time round.
    I expect a general election to be called by the new Tory leader in 2019 or 2020 ie during the transition period before full Brexit when we are still effectively in the single market
    Of course, that would require Jezza's blessing. He gave it before, but this time he might want some serious Brexit suffering - queues at Dover stretching up the M2, supermarkets empty of all but basic, government-issued foodstuffs - to really hammer the blame on the Tories.
    They will not call it until Brexit has been done and a transition period agreed, if Corbyn votes against a transition period that torpedoes his support with Remain voters if he torpedoes Brexit that hits him with Leave voters
  • stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    So, people would start keeping their money in brown envelopes and safes in their homes.

    The next step would be to send "inspectors" into people's houses, looking for money they'd secretly stashed away.
  • SeanT said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    Only 5% of people earn more than £70k so increasing tax on those over £80k will affect an even smaller proportion.
    The fantasy is that doing (all of that) will fund even the tiniest proportion of the lavish spending that Corbyn and McDonnell have committed to.

    Make no mistake: if you are earning over £30k, you will feel it. Hard.
    Everyone in the country would feel it hard. GDP growth would surge for a year or two - like a nutter taking dangerous steroids - but then it would collapse. Property prices would halve as money and investment fled London, consumer confidence would crater. Unemployment would rocket, inflation would stalk the land. And so on.

    Brexit is a pleasant stroll in the park compared to full on Chavezy Socialism, a la Jeremy Corbyn.

    It is quite incredible that a mature, stable, blessed, and prosperous democracy like the UK is one iffy election away from economic seppuku.
    People are concerned about effects of Brexit on ability of the UK to attract highly educated workers....Under Corbyn, there is going to be a rush for the borders outward...well other than your stereotypical Marxist social scientist.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Corbyn talking quite a lot about Brexit - that surprises me.

    "Unimpeded access to the single market" but also a new industrial strategy?
    Not sure how that gets achieved...

    But clearly pro-immigration/migrants rights.



  • Brilliant:

    It isn’t migrants who drive down wages, but the worst bosses, in collusion with the Tory government.

    Labour will address this, “not pander to scapegoating or racism”


    That actually sums up Corbyn's nasty divisiveness in a nutshell.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    A campaign run by the New Zealand Nationals this month warning of Labour tax rises under Jacinda Ardern helped turn a narrow poll lead into a clear lead for National when the general election results were announced on Saturday


    NZ election results are at

    http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2017_preliminary/

    National party 46.0%

    Labour 35.8%

    NZF 7.5%

    GP 5.9%

    Hung Parliament with NZ First holding the balance.
    A fortnight ago Labour led most NZ polls
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    SeanT said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    Only 5% of people earn more than £70k so increasing tax on those over £80k will affect an even smaller proportion.
    The fantasy is that doing (all of that) will fund even the tiniest proportion of the lavish spending that Corbyn and McDonnell have committed to.

    Make no mistake: if you are earning over £30k, you will feel it. Hard.
    Everyone in the country would feel it hard. GDP growth would surge for a year or two - like a nutter taking dangerous steroids - but then it would collapse. Property prices would halve as money and investment fled London, consumer confidence would crater. Unemployment would rocket, inflation would stalk the land. And so on.

    Brexit is a pleasant stroll in the park compared to full on Chavezy Socialism, a la Jeremy Corbyn.

    It is quite incredible that a mature, stable, blessed, and prosperous democracy like the UK is one iffy election away from economic seppuku.
    I dislike Corbyn most because he's turned me into an 'anyone but x' voter, with him being the X. I'd prefer to only vote positively.
  • Brilliant:

    It isn’t migrants who drive down wages, but the worst bosses, in collusion with the Tory government.

    Labour will address this, “not pander to scapegoating or racism”


    That actually sums up Corbyn's nasty divisiveness in a nutshell.

    Its the Marxist doctrine of all inequality is a result of oppression by the bosses.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    A campaign run by the New Zealand Nationals this month warning of Labour tax rises under Jacinda Ardern helped turn a narrow poll lead into a clear lead for National when the general election results were announced on Saturday


    NZ election results are at

    http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2017_preliminary/

    National party 46.0%

    Labour 35.8%

    NZF 7.5%

    GP 5.9%

    Hung Parliament with NZ First holding the balance.
    A fortnight ago Labour led most NZ polls
    Public opinion is volatile in most places.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    So, people would start keeping their money in brown envelopes and safes in their homes.

    The next step would be to send "inspectors" into people's houses, looking for money they'd secretly stashed away.
    Christ

    Get a grip

    i thought you were a level headed poster.

    Your Prejudices are manifesting themselves in delusional meanderings lately
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Brilliant:

    It isn’t migrants who drive down wages, but the worst bosses, in collusion with the Tory government.

    Labour will address this, “not pander to scapegoating or racism”


    That actually sums up Corbyn's nasty divisiveness in a nutshell.

    Don't get what you think is nasty divisiveness about that statement.
  • Its the Marxist doctrine of all inequality is a result of oppression by the bosses.

    Yep, it's completely unreconstructed mid-twentieth century far-left stuff. Venezuela and Cuba are the most successful models of the policies being put into practice.
  • Thanks to him, road haulage was nationalised (WTF?)

    All commercial transport was nationalised - there was nothing exceptional about road. Rail, road, water (and don't forget rail was much more significant for freight in 1948 than now; road was mostly short-haul stuff).

    It was a well-meaning attempt to run an integrated transport system. But the British Transport Commission was run by military leaders being given a nice sinecure after WWII, rather than people who actually knew about peace-time transport, and we ended up with nonsense like the BR Modernisation Plan. The principle wasn't necessarily bad, the execution was.
    Yes, it was stupid. Both the principle, and the execution.

    The growth in private road haulage actually occurred post WWI - when army drivers were demobbed, into the early 1920s - and their entrepreneurship two decades earlier showed it to be both unnecessary and counterproductive.

    The decisions of the Attlee government on the economy (to be fair, aided by the complacency of Churchill/Eden/MacMillan) contributed to the poor growth the British economy experienced in the mid-late 1950s, and early 1960s, and so to comparisons with our European neighbours on the continent, and our application to join the EEC.
  • kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    Only 5% of people earn more than £70k so increasing tax on those over £80k will affect an even smaller proportion.
    The fantasy is that doing (all of that) will fund even the tiniest proportion of the lavish spending that Corbyn and McDonnell have committed to.

    Make no mistake: if you are earning over £30k, you will feel it. Hard.
    Everyone in the country would feel it hard. GDP growth would surge for a year or two - like a nutter taking dangerous steroids - but then it would collapse. Property prices would halve as money and investment fled London, consumer confidence would crater. Unemployment would rocket, inflation would stalk the land. And so on.

    Brexit is a pleasant stroll in the park compared to full on Chavezy Socialism, a la Jeremy Corbyn.

    It is quite incredible that a mature, stable, blessed, and prosperous democracy like the UK is one iffy election away from economic seppuku.
    I dislike Corbyn most because he's turned me into an 'anyone but x' voter, with him being the X. I'd prefer to only vote positively.
    I am sure you are one of many tens of thousands who will feel the same after this 'rant'

    It is even possible that the Country will feel some relief to listen to the conservatives next week
  • SeanT said:

    stevef said:

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    And the second question answers itself. You can't provide that level of socialism on current levels of tax, so tax would have to rise. Labour claims that it can do it through corporation tax (which would feed through to consumers or pay settlements), and higher levels of income tax. In reality, I suspect that they'd fall short of their anticipated return, taxes would be put up further (beyond Laffer curve effectiveness), government receipts would still be short and borrowing, interest rates and inflation would rise, while the Pound slumped.
    If all that happened, "Oh! Jeremy Corbyn" would be sung with a very different meaning.
    I confess I am now genuinely worried about Corbyn seizing power.

    How does one - ahem - go about moving capital abroad?
    Not seizing power. Elected by the British people.



    It's his seizing everything else you want to be worried about.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    The key to a Tory victory next time is to attack Labour heavily on tax, that is how they beat Kinnock in 1992 despite being in power for 13 years.

    A campaign run by the New Zealand Nationals this month warning of Labour tax rises under Jacinda Ardern helped turn a narrow poll lead into a clear lead for National when the general election results were announced on Saturday


    NZ election results are at

    http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2017_preliminary/

    National party 46.0%

    Labour 35.8%

    NZF 7.5%

    GP 5.9%

    Hung Parliament with NZ First holding the balance.
    A fortnight ago Labour led most NZ polls
    Public opinion is volatile in most places.
    It was the heavy attack ads on Labour tax rises in the final fortnight by National that was key though
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    SeanT said:

    stevef said:

    stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    And the second question answers itself. You can't provide that level of socialism on current levels of tax, so tax would have to rise. Labour claims that it can do it through corporation tax (which would feed through to consumers or pay settlements), and higher levels of income tax. In reality, I suspect that they'd fall short of their anticipated return, taxes would be put up further (beyond Laffer curve effectiveness), government receipts would still be short and borrowing, interest rates and inflation would rise, while the Pound slumped.
    If all that happened, "Oh! Jeremy Corbyn" would be sung with a very different meaning.
    I confess I am now genuinely worried about Corbyn seizing power.

    How does one - ahem - go about moving capital abroad?
    Not seizing power. Elected by the British people.



    It's his seizing everything else you want to be worried about.
    You mean making the Rich pay their fair share of tax!!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,836
    Never mind the content. Feel the feelz. JC is a man transformed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited September 2017

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Labour's tax plans in the Manifesto were to increase income tax on those earning 80k+, a new 50p rate for those on 123k+ and raising corporation tax back to 26%.

    I heard some criticism of the corporation tax rise - but I suspect Labour's line that it will still be lowest in G7, plus the fact that it is not a visible tax for most - was probably quite good at neutralising criticism...

    I heard very little criticism of the top income tax increases - I suspect because the Tories know they are on to a loser on that one.

    I suspect both tax rises are probably quite popular as tax rises go.

    Only 5% of people earn more than £70k so increasing tax on those over £80k will affect an even smaller proportion.
    The fantasy is that doing (all of that) will fund even the tiniest proportion of the lavish spending that Corbyn and McDonnell have committed to.

    Make no mistake: if you are earning over £30k, you will feel it. Hard.
    Everyone in the country would feel it hard. GDP growth would surge for a year or two - like a nutter taking dangerous steroids - but then it would collapse. Property prices would halve as money and investment fled London, consumer confidence would crater. Unemployment would rocket, inflation would stalk the land. And so on.

    Brexit is a pleasant stroll in the park compared to full on Chavezy Socialism, a la Jeremy Corbyn.

    It is quite incredible that a mature, stable, blessed, and prosperous democracy like the UK is one iffy election away from economic seppuku.
    I dislike Corbyn most because he's turned me into an 'anyone but x' voter, with him being the X. I'd prefer to only vote positively.
    I am sure you are one of many tens of thousands who will feel the same after this 'rant'

    It is even possible that the Country will feel some relief to listen to the conservatives next week
    That I find less likely, and actually I've not sen much of the details of this speech yet. Some ideas may be fine, though I do deeply disagree with others and find his style very offputting.

    Other the other hand maybe he'll finally give us electoral reform, so hey ho.
  • stevef said:

    Corbyn and Co claim that his government will not be traditional Labour, but what is a traditional Labour government? All Labour governments have been different from each other.

    Corbynism is not radical and it is not new. It is old style hard leftism. It stole Blairs "Many not the Few " slogan from 1997, and Corbyn did not have the guts to have a hard left manifesto in 2017.

    No, bankers and the City should not frustrate the will of the People by going on strike against Labour governments.. Nor should trade unions be allowed to have political strikes.

    What exactly will a Corbyn government do to prevent a flight of capital, or a run on the Pound? Spell it out.

    And how will a government led by Corbyn be able to provide 1940s-70s levels of state socialism on Thatcherite/Blairite levels of personal tax? Explain?

    Cyclefree does spell out what a Corbyn government might have to do to prevent a flight of capital: capital controls, temporary bank closures, limits on how much people are allowed to take out, a tax on all savings held in banks in the UK above a certain limit, conversion of savings into bonds or shares, seizure of savings above a certain limit.

    So, people would start keeping their money in brown envelopes and safes in their homes.

    The next step would be to send "inspectors" into people's houses, looking for money they'd secretly stashed away.
    If McDonnell spent, borrowed and printed as he seems to be planning, I wouldn't want to be keeping cash (well, not Sterling anyway), in large quantities anywhere.
  • rkrkrk said:

    Corbyn talking quite a lot about Brexit - that surprises me.

    "Unimpeded access to the single market" but also a new industrial strategy?
    Not sure how that gets achieved...

    But clearly pro-immigration/migrants rights.



    Unimpeded access?

    Should we focus on adjective or the noun?
  • Rent Controls incoming...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    I expect the tory conference will be a lot of 'we must listen to the public' while making few changes to avoid charges of weakness.
This discussion has been closed.