The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
When the police stop a motorist speeding, should they beat the hell out of the driver to uphold the rule of law ?
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
If the law says it is okay to beat peaceful people who just want to vote then the law is wrong and should be overturned. Indeed the blind adherence to the rule of law has been used as an excuse by dictators for the last century. It is no more valid an argument than it was under Hitler or Mussolini.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
Well said. Argue that the referendum is unconstitutional, don’t send troops in to disrupt a peaceful vote.
Right, who's off to Barcelona to form an International Brigade?
No-one from Labour that is for sure, they are plastic Internationalists as with most other policies.
Really? You are responding to a joke about the political situation in Spain with a partisan dig at the Labour Party?and your criticism is that they're not prepared to take up arms in a foreign Civil War?
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
Well said. Argue that the referendum is unconstitutional, don’t send troops in to disrupt a peaceful vote.
There is a little bit of Franco in all Right wing Spanish politicians. After today, Catalonian freedom cannot come sooner.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
Well said. Argue that the referendum is unconstitutional, don’t send troops in to disrupt a peaceful vote.
There is a little bit of Franco in all Right wing Spanish politicians. After today, Catalonian freedom cannot come sooner.
After today it will come sooner. Properly or reasonably handled it may not have come at all. But it's too late now.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
That does not mean that defiance of that law by voting needs to be repressed by means of beatings and rubber bullets.
I wonder whether this Catalnia shambles has made Scottish independence less likely.
The difference between the way the British and Spanish governments have handled the issue must have made a few Scots think that being part of Britain isn't all that bad after all.
It also makes Sturgeon's bleating appear even more ludicrous.
It is only seen as bleating to sad Little Englanders like you. Sounds like you prefer the Spanish way. We will have our say again when we want it despite the London Dictator outlawing it. No democracy in the UK given the Scottish parliament voted by a majority for a second vote.
The SNP got just 37% in June, down from 50% in 2015.
Canada did eventually give Quebec a second independence referendum in 1995 but only 15 years after the first in 1980.
On that basis if there is to be a second Scottish independence referendum it will not be until 2029.
You thick, no mention of SNP. The Scottish parliament voted by a majority to have a second referendum PS: to cover ydoethur's pedantry , it was to petition our Lords and Masters at Westminster to allow us the power to be able to think for ourselves.
The Scottish people then voted overwhelmingly not to have another one in June when the combined SNP and Green vote (which produced the pro referendum majority at Holyrood in March) fell from 51% in 2015 to just 37% in 2017
Really? Don't remember that on the ballot paper.
The whole reason the SNP lost almost half their seats was because the SNP were pushing for an unwanted second referendum
While May did not get a mandate for much in the general election she did get a mandate for the Union in Scotland with Unionist parties winning 63% of the vote
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very different beast.
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
When the police stop a motorist speeding, should they beat the hell out of the driver to uphold the rule of law ?
Reminds me of a joke spanish policeman stops some on for failing to stop at a stop sign, he's dragged out of the car and the policeman starts to beat him. The driver pleads but officer I slowed down, the officer asks him do you want me to slow down or stop beating you?
HYUFD said: 'I have an A grade economics A Level none of which changes the fact you obviously cannot read data or the chart I posted which clearly shows the dramatic fall in inflation both from 1979 to 1986 and that by 1991 it was less than half that in 1979 '
I am providing details of the inflation rate as measured by the RPI - published monthly - for the three years - 1974 - 1979 - and 1990. The data for 1991 would relate to John Major's time in office.
1974 Jan 12.0 Feb 13.2 Mar 13.5 Apr 15.2 May 15.9 Jun 16.5 Jul 17.1 Aug 16.8 Sep 17.1 Oct 17.1 Nov 18.3 Dec 19.1
1979 Jan 9.3 Feb 9.6 Mar 9.8 Apr 10.1 May 10.3 Jun 11.4 Jul 15.6 Aug 15.8 Sep 16.5 Oct 17.1 Nov 17.4 Dec 17.2
1990 Jan 7.7 Feb 7.5 Mar 8.1 Apr 9.4 May 9.7 Jun 9.8 Jul 9.8 Aug 10.6 Sep 10.9 Oct 10.9 Nov 9.7 Dec 9.3
This is all ONS data. Harold Wilson became PM again on 4th March 1974 and inherited the system of 'threshold' pay increases from the Heath Govy whereby everybode received a pay increase if the RPI went beyond a certain level. Inflation was already very high and clearly accelerating. In Healey's July 74 Mini Budget VAT was reduced to 8% from 10% which explains the apparent slowing down of price increases in the late summer and early autumn that year.
Thatcher became PM on 4th May 1979. Inflation was already edging higher - having hovered around 8% throughout 1978 though it remained well below the level inherited in March 1974. In Geoffrey Howe's June 1979 Budget VAT was increased from 8% to 15% and Utility prices to consumers were forced up sharply. The effect on the RPI really should speak for itself. From circa 10% in Spring 79 inflation jumped dramatically to 16/17% in the latter months of the year and went on to reach 22% in Spring 1980.Whilst 13% may have been the average rate of inflation for 1979 . that owes everything to what happened from the middle of the year.
As for 1990, RPI inflation remained high throughout the year . Moreover, RPI inflation was higher in Thatcher's last year in office than in Callaghan's last year!
I am not going through your selective data picking yet again other than to point out Thatcher got inflation down to just 4% in 1986, an astonishing achievement given even on your figures it never fell below 9% throughout the 1970s.
As your figures also show even though inflation rose a bit again in 1990 it was still lower when Thatcher left office in November 1990 than when Callaghan left office in May 1979 and it fell again under Major such that by 1997 when the Tories left office inflation was 3% less than a third of the 10.3% Labour had left it at in May 1979
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very different beast.
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
It is absolutely repellent to watch the police injure peaceful voters, whether one agrees with the vote or not.
I don't agree with Catalan indepdence, but Madrid should have let the referendum go ahead and then ignore it. It is illegal under the constitution, but that doesn't mean it is wise to suppress it.
Jeremy CorbynVerified account @jeremycorbyn Police violence against citizens in #Catalonia is shocking. The Spanish government must act to end it now.
Finally shamed into saying something , why did it take till 1:30pm when videos have been rolling since early morning. PS: Better than Tories mind you
The belief that politicians should comment on international events within hours of them happening is one of the more ridiculous demands some have in the modern news age.
On university fees. The key thing is to make undergraduate courses more efficient and cheaper. Don't worry about world rankings - education factories are what we should go for. If people are willing to pay the basic fees and meet the standards they should get get on the course.
You sound like Michael O'Leary.
Pay the basic fee, you get on the aeroplane.
I'm OK with that. You either open up education to anyone who wants it and meets the standards or you limit it effectively to an elite. The second is not acceptable in today's world because people have aspirations and don't accept being kept in their box by bureaucrats and politicians. Which is the political point. The issue isn't that too many people are being educated at university; it's that it costs too much.
Ryanair opened up air travel to people who would have stayed at home before.
You have Ryanair.
Anyone with money who wants to avoid cattle class takes another airline, pays more money and travels in comfort.
You have EasyUniversity.
Anyone with money pays more and goes to a Russell Group, or to a University in the US.
Your system will end up like air travel. Cattle class for some, whilst an elite travels business class in comfort.
In your world, Oxford, Cambridge & the Russell Group will simply go private.
Who do you think is going to end up at your Education Factory, your EasyUniversity ? Who will teach there, when terms and conditions are so much better at a Russell Group University? When an employer looks at cvs, do you think they hire someone from the University of Durham or the EasyUniversity ? When the BBC chose a new Director General, will it be Oxbridge or the University of RyanAir.
By reducing public universities to such a pitiful level, you will have actually entranced privilege.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very different beast.
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
You may have missed it but we did have a referendum in Scotland so that people could express their democratic wishes. It's what genuine democracies do.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
Snip
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very different beast.
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
It is absolutely repellent to watch the police injure peaceful voters, whether one agrees with the vote or not.
I don't agree with Catalan indepdence, but Madrid should have let the referendum go ahead and then ignore it. It is illegal under the constitution, but that doesn't mean it is wise to suppress it.
I'm sorry, but ignoring it is not an answer. Let's assume Madrid did as you suggest, and Yes won on a low turnout. The Generalitat declares independence. They ask for the Spanish government to evacuate or turn over military facilities in Catalonia; they refuse.
Jeremy CorbynVerified account @jeremycorbyn Police violence against citizens in #Catalonia is shocking. The Spanish government must act to end it now.
Finally shamed into saying something , why did it take till 1:30pm when videos have been rolling since early morning. PS: Better than Tories mind you
The belief that politicians should comment on international events within hours of them happening is one of the more ridiculous demands some have in the modern news age.
Asking for trouble.
There is little useful to be said by British politicians here. This is a traumatic matter, but it is for Spain itself to deal with at present.i would not welcome, if I were Spanish or Catalan, the banal witterings of U.K. leaders.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very different beast.
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
So, the evil, baby-eating, xenophobic, Brexiteering Tories gave the Scots an opportunity to vote on being part of the UK or not. Whether or not you think Scotland should be part of the UK, at least the referendum was given the go ahead.
But the loyal, Europhile Spanish Govt. refuses to give the Catalans a say on whether they should be part of Spain or not. What are the Spanish Govt. afraid of? Actually losing any legal referendum?
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
Snip
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very differ
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
You may have missed it but we did have a referendum in Scotland so that people could express their democratic wishes. It's what genuine democracies do.
I'm well aware of that. I campaigned in it, on the same side as you. The point is that referendum was constitutional and legal following agreement between London and Edinburgh, and hence the outcome was beyond reproach. That is not the case in Spain.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
Snip
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very differ
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
You may have missed it but we did have a referendum in Scotland so that people could express their democratic wishes. It's what genuine democracies do.
I'm well aware of that. I campaigned in it, on the same side as you. The point is that referendum was constitutional and legal following agreement between London and Edinburgh, and hence the outcome was beyond reproach. That is not the case in Spain.
I note you haven't actually answered my question.
What are the Spanish Govt. afraid of? Actually losing any legal referendum?
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful. at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
Snip
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very different beast.
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
It is absolutely repellent to watch the police injure peaceful voters, whether one agrees with the vote or not.
I don't agree with Catalan indepdence, but Madrid should have let the referendum go ahead and then ignore it. It is illegal under the constitution, but that doesn't mean it is wise to suppress it.
I'm sorry, but ignoring it is not an answer. Let's assume Madrid did as you suggest, and Yes won on a low turnout. The Generalitat declares independence. They ask for the Spanish government to evacuate or turn over military facilities in Catalonia; they refuse.
I think violence would be inevitable.
A UDI is different.
Polling before this affair showed that turnout was unlikely to be sufficient to have any real validity. Any subsequent UDI therefore would totally have lacked legitimacy.
But, to follow the logic, if the Catalans *did* declare UDI, that amounts to a kind of coup, and I would expect the requisite response from central authorities.
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very differ
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
You may have missed it but we did have a referendum in Scotland so that people could express their democratic wishes. It's what genuine democracies do.
I'm well aware of that. I campaigned in it, on the same side as you. The point is that referendum was constitutional and legal following agreement between London and Edinburgh, and hence the outcome was beyond reproach. That is not the case in Spain.
I note you haven't actually answered my question.
The answer is that democracies allow their citizens to express their opinions, even if they don't agree. That is what the UK did and it was the right thing to do. Spain has failed that test and has thereby lost its democratic mandate.
If Sturgeon tried an illegal referendum I would oppose it. I would expect the UK to say it had no effect. I would not expect hundreds of my fellow citizens to be assaulted.
The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.
Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.
These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.
Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
I wouldn't be happy, but I wouldn't advise sending in the troops to beat people voting - for one if it is on low turnout, she would soon find herself constrained if she tried to move forward.
Very few people are saying the Catalans are blameless for the escalation, but given as far as I know it was not certain they would win a free and fair poll, then permitting an illegal poll and ignoring it was probably a better option.
I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
Snip
Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
Snip
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
You may have missed it but we did have a referendum in Scotland so that people could express their democratic wishes. It's what genuine democracies do.
I'm well aware of that. I campaigned in it, on the same side as you. The point is that referendum was constitutional and legal following agreement between London and Edinburgh, and hence the outcome was beyond reproach. That is not the case in Spain.
I note you haven't actually answered my question.
The answer is that democracies allow their citizens to express their opinions, even if they don't agree. That is what the UK did and it was the right thing to do. Spain has failed that test and has thereby lost its democratic mandate.
If Sturgeon tried an illegal referendum I would oppose it. I would expect the UK to say it had no effect. I would not expect hundreds of my fellow citizens to be assaulted.
I think the difference between us is that I think the behaviour of the politicians in Madrid and Barcelona has made some kind of violence inevitable. I think ignoring a referendum result would ultimately lead to physical struggle as the conflicting demands of the two governments played out in Catalonia.
It's easier to walk back from a failed referendum than UDI. Catalonia actually had an unofficial referendum in 2014:
On university fees. The key thing is to make undergraduate courses more efficient and cheaper. Don't worry about world rankings - education factories are what we should go for. If people are willing to pay the basic fees and meet the standards they should get get on the course.
You sound like Michael O'Leary.
Pay the basic fee, you get on the aeroplane.
I'm OK with that. You either open up education to anyone who wants it and meets the standards or you limit it effectively to an elite. The second is not acceptable in today's world because people have aspirations and don't accept being kept in their box by bureaucrats and politicians. Which is the political point. The issue isn't that too many people are being educated at university; it's that it costs too much.
Ryanair opened up air travel to people who would have stayed at home before.
You have Ryanair.
Anyone with money who wants to avoid cattle class takes another airline, pays more money and travels in comfort.
You have EasyUniversity.
Anyone with money pays more and goes to a Russell Group, or to a University in the US.
Your system will end up like air travel. Cattle class for some, whilst an elite travels business class in comfort.
In your world, Oxford, Cambridge & the Russell Group will simply go private.
Who do you think is going to end up at your Education Factory, your EasyUniversity ? Who will teach there, when terms and conditions are so much better at a Russell Group University? When an employer looks at cvs, do you think they hire someone from the University of Durham or the EasyUniversity ? When the BBC chose a new Director General, will it be Oxbridge or the University of RyanAir.
By reducing public universities to such a pitiful level, you will have actually entranced privilege.
Even in the US, one notes that every state has publicly-owned, partly state-funded, largely self-governing universities (Regents run them). They appear to charge students ~£6,000 per year. A 4 year course is normal, like Scotland.
Excluding those, I don't think the US has more than a dozen fully private universities, does it, i.e. Stanford, Yale, Harvard, MIT? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_universities_in_the_United_States. Many of the state universities have excellent reputations. So how can UK univs. charge 1.5x as much as the land of the free where almost everything incl. univs. runs on a largely fee-for-service basis?
It appears that US states do expect to pay towards the running costs of their state universities, unlike our state. The only point in favour of the UK is that our loans are 'soft'. US student loans are something that you must repay or the debt collectors will come for you.
Not really keeping up with Spanish politics. Are the government leftwing commies or the remnants of the right wing Franco fascists?
Madrid government = Partido Popular = right wing conservatives. PP spend a lot of time denying that they're the heirs to Franco; draw your own conclusions.
Thanks, I was wondering why there wasn't much condemnation from the Tories or the Daily Mail. Reminds me of the "Lurve In" by Thatcher and Dacre with Pinochet.
I think it has nothing to do with that at all. No European government whatever their political persuasion has made any comment or condemnation. Unfortunately they all think the sanctity of the existing nation state is more important than democracy or human rights.
This is not a bad point but it is not a conclusive point. The desirability of other countries to enforce change or standards on the internal politics of a third country has been the subject of some debate in the 21st century. During one of the debates (I forget which - Syria or Ukraine) Michael Howard made reference to a duty of care and that that duty required intervention. Consider the following:
If you believe that a nation has a right to impose behaviour internally on a third party then logically you must agree with: * The EU's wish to enforce guarantees for its citizens in the UK post-Brexit * The US's wish to enforce democracy for the citizens of Iraq * Russia's wish to enable secession of the Crimea from Ukraine * Saudi Arabia's wish to enable the replacement of Westphalian states with a transnational Islamic caliphate.
If you believe that a nation does not has a right to impose behaviour internally on a third party then logically you must agree with: * The sometimes medieval behavior of the 'Stans (which one was it where they boiled someone to death?) * The widespread oppression of women in Saudi Arabia and other states * The Rwandan genocide
I could go on (and I haven't even mentioned Bloody Sunday) but the question you pose is not an easy one.
As a postscript, consider this:
As Brexit will (worse case scenario) result in UK becoming more insular, or (best case scenario) adopt a wideranging global network based on trade, we will become less able to influence geopolitical events. So regardless of how this question of state interference is resolved, it will have little effect on us, other than to observe or comment.
The EU is not a State - yet. Nor has any state the right to insist its own laws apply outside of its territory..
Jeremy Corbyn ✔@jeremycorbyn I urge @Theresa_May to appeal directly to Rajoy to end police violence in Catalonia & find political solution to this constitutional crisis. 4:57 PM - Oct 1, 2017
Right, who's off to Barcelona to form an International Brigade?
No-one from Labour that is for sure, they are plastic Internationalists as with most other policies.
Really? You are responding to a joke about the political situation in Spain with a partisan dig at the Labour Party?and your criticism is that they're not prepared to take up arms in a foreign Civil War?
No I was commenting on the fact that they are always spouting about how they are internationalists , especially their leaders an din Scotland, meanwhile they are really a bunch of mealy mouthed liars who have more faces than the town clock and do not care a jot other than getting themselves into power to enrich themselves. You can pick just about any of their policies, anti nuclear but support Trident , anti Uni fees but introduced them and on and on and on.
Comments
Sad to hear more have been injured in Spain, and there's been another foam-flecked lunatic attack in France:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461107
While May did not get a mandate for much in the general election she did get a mandate for the Union in Scotland with Unionist parties winning 63% of the vote
https://twitter.com/aldin_ww/status/914488837291769857
Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
As your figures also show even though inflation rose a bit again in 1990 it was still lower when Thatcher left office in November 1990 than when Callaghan left office in May 1979 and it fell again under Major such that by 1997 when the Tories left office inflation was 3% less than a third of the 10.3% Labour had left it at in May 1979
I don't agree with Catalan indepdence, but Madrid should have let the referendum go ahead and then ignore it. It is illegal under the constitution, but that doesn't mean it is wise to suppress it.
Asking for trouble.
Anyone with money who wants to avoid cattle class takes another airline, pays more money and travels in comfort.
You have EasyUniversity.
Anyone with money pays more and goes to a Russell Group, or to a University in the US.
Your system will end up like air travel. Cattle class for some, whilst an elite travels business class in comfort.
In your world, Oxford, Cambridge & the Russell Group will simply go private.
Who do you think is going to end up at your Education Factory, your EasyUniversity ? Who will teach there, when terms and conditions are so much better at a Russell Group University? When an employer looks at cvs, do you think they hire someone from the University of Durham or the EasyUniversity ? When the BBC chose a new Director General, will it be Oxbridge or the University of RyanAir.
By reducing public universities to such a pitiful level, you will have actually entranced privilege.
I think violence would be inevitable.
But the loyal, Europhile Spanish Govt. refuses to give the Catalans a say on whether they should be part of Spain or not. What are the Spanish Govt. afraid of? Actually losing any legal referendum?
I note you haven't actually answered my question.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salt_March
Polling before this affair showed that turnout was unlikely to be sufficient to have any real validity. Any subsequent UDI therefore would totally have lacked legitimacy.
But, to follow the logic, if the Catalans *did* declare UDI, that amounts to a kind of coup, and I would expect the requisite response from central authorities.
If Sturgeon tried an illegal referendum I would oppose it. I would expect the UK to say it had no effect. I would not expect hundreds of my fellow citizens to be assaulted.
Why can't the Spanish Govt do the same for Catalonia?
https://twitter.com/JamesCleverly/status/914425244588396544
Will he be a minister shortly?
Very few people are saying the Catalans are blameless for the escalation, but given as far as I know it was not certain they would win a free and fair poll, then permitting an illegal poll and ignoring it was probably a better option.
— Martin Luther King, Jr., The Quest for Peace and Justice (1964)
Good read and sounds familiar:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/01/could-americas-socialists-become-the-tea-party-of-the-left-215661
It's easier to walk back from a failed referendum than UDI. Catalonia actually had an unofficial referendum in 2014:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_self-determination_referendum,_2014
The Generalidad would not fail to declare independence for a second time. That is why Madrid is stopping them.
Desperately sad for Catalonia, Spain and Europe.
Excluding those, I don't think the US has more than a dozen fully private universities, does it, i.e. Stanford, Yale, Harvard, MIT? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_universities_in_the_United_States. Many of the state universities have excellent reputations. So how can UK univs. charge 1.5x as much as the land of the free where almost everything incl. univs. runs on a largely fee-for-service basis?
It appears that US states do expect to pay towards the running costs of their state universities, unlike our state. The only point in favour of the UK is that our loans are 'soft'. US student loans are something that you must repay or the debt collectors will come for you.
I urge @Theresa_May to appeal directly to Rajoy to end police violence in Catalonia & find political solution to this constitutional crisis.
4:57 PM - Oct 1, 2017