That's because their remit was largely about consumer protection; it wasn't their role to look at financial stability of the whole system. Previously that had been done by the BoE, but Gordon Brown took away that responsibility and deliberately ignored those who warned him about the likely consequences.
The only good thing about the whole debacle is that the FSA is a good example of how good governance has little to do with how much is spent or how big the headcount is. You can spend a fortune and get it completely wrong, as Brown has shown us.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments.
I think that says more about you than the comments I have seen - there have been many comments today on the subject and the great majority of them have been sober, reflective and in painful acknowledgement of the complex situation and the fact that neither side is blameless.
And you decide to throw out the xenophobia card, thus at a stroke invaliding the great thrust of balanced and thoughtful commentary (and you have applied it to more than a handful, calling it 'many'), most conveniently absolving you of any need to address any alternate points of view, which your other comments show you have ignored since they addressed those points. A lazy, lazy approach - these people must be xenophobes, of course! Apparently a diverse crown of PBers from Tories, to Labour to SNP supporters have turned out to be xenophobes given it has had more cut across than most issues i have seen on here.
I presume you base your insulting view on the several 'thank goodness the scottish indy vote went better than this' comments, but you clearly haven't ready the many many others which have suggested what they think Madrid could have done differently - ignore it, discredit it, and so on - since you put forth the question as though no one has done anything other than condemn the spanish authorities for their hamfisted approach, when in fact plenty have done, which makes a mockery of your insult.
I would expect her to become first choice for members
Some of the more rabid Leavers won't like her, of course, but if we're serious about becoming the natural party of government again, and seeing off the Corybnistic lunacy, she'd be a fantastic choice. Of course, she might not want the job, and the mechanics are tricky.
As a non-tory, I agree that Davidson would be a great choice for you guys and imo would seriously diminish the chances of Labour winning next time. If you really are so afeared of the prospect of a Corbyn administration* you should be hoping that a) May hangs on for a year or two and b) an MP resigns or dies in a tory safe seat so that Davidson can be parachuted in in time to be elected leader when May goes before the next GE. It's a tricky path!
(*I happen to think it will be a lot more docile and less radical than you fear)
It would look ill of her to seemingly abandon Holyrood because Westminster was beckoning, but assuming for a moment she were willing to do so before the next Scottish parliamentary elections, and acknowledging there is no reason at all why she couldn't do otherwise, I feel like she would really want to represent a Scottish seat, of which all but one of the scottish Tory seats are newly taken so no one likely to retire anytime soon and most are young enough that one wouldn't expect a sudden change in their circumstances. Even opening up to UK wide, there may not be any by-elections in the next few years in a winnable seat for the Tories, a lot of them have seemed to have be in Labour heartland seats.
Yes, I was thinking central office could lean on a sitting tory MP in a safe seat. But I think it's a good point re it really needing to be a Scottish seat. So it's probably in the lap of the gods then. The other issue is would it feel right for someone who had been an MP for only a year or so to? I said it was a tricky path.
If she had an experienced MP as, say, First Secretary of State to act as her portal to Westminster I could see her rising to the top job fairly quickly in those circumstances, allaying concerns she would not know how to operate in Westminster. But I think it is a question for post 2021 - of SCON continue to do well there, making some more gains and solidify second place at least, then her star will be able to keep rising.
If she is the saviour then Labour are certainties to be in power. She is useless.
Even in the US, one notes that every state has publicly-owned, partly state-funded, largely self-governing universities (Regents run them). They appear to charge students ~£6,000 per year. A 4 year course is normal, like Scotland.
Excluding those, I don't think the US has more than a dozen fully private universities, does it, i.e. Stanford, Yale, Harvard, MIT? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_universities_in_the_United_States. Many of the state universities have excellent reputations. So how can UK univs. charge 1.5x as much as the land of the free where almost everything incl. univs. runs on a largely fee-for-service basis?
It appears that US states do expect to pay towards the running costs of their state universities, unlike our state. The only point in favour of the UK is that our loans are 'soft'. US student loans are something that you must repay or the debt collectors will come for you.
Fees at a typical state university (Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey) are in-state: $14,372, out-of-state: $30,023.
Total cost of attendance at Rutgers are in-state: $31,733, out-of-state: $47,384
Or, in UK terms, the in-state fees are 10,729 pounds (just tuition) or 23,685 pounds (total cost of attendance).
Hence, your statement is ***incorrect***.
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, charges in-state tuition fees in excess of the UK tuition fees.
Out-of-state fees are way more, and of course the private universities are way, way more again. However, the private universities use their endowment to offer needs-blind admission (which is where I think the Russell group will end up).
Rutgers is a good state university, but nothing special. Probably comparable to a middling-rank Russell Group University here (say Exeter).
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
How anyone can try to justify this is beyond belief, you should be ashamed of yourself.
The question for Junckers and the EU elite is that as they go down the road to abolition of Nation states into one Europe it will feed the monster of Nationalism and regional self determination resulting in the implosion of the EU.
Catalan is a demonstration of the anger of people wanting a democratic vote on their own destiny
Mark Stone of Sky saying that under the orders of an European government Police were pulling people out by their hair, stamped upon them, put on one side, and illegal rubber bullets fired at them
Over 470 injuries
Thank goodness we are leaving
What's this got to do with the EU? It's Spanish police acting on Spanish government orders. Do you think the EU should send an army in to sort it all out?
I would expect her to become first choice for members
Some of the more rabid Leavers won't like her, of course, but if we're serious about becoming the natural party of government again, and seeing off the Corybnistic lunacy, she'd be a fantastic choice. Of course, she might not want the job, and the mechanics are tricky.
As a non-tory, I agree that Davidson would be a great choice for you guys and imo would seriously diminish the chances of Labour winning next time. If you really are so afeared of the prospect of a Corbyn administration* you should be hoping that a) May hangs on for a year or two and b) an MP resigns or dies in a tory safe seat so that Davidson can be parachuted in in time to be elected leader when May goes before the next GE. It's a tricky path!
(*I happen to think it will be a lot more docile and less radical than you fear)
It would look ill of her to seemingly abandon Holyrood because Westminster was beckoning, but assuming for a moment she were willing to do so before the next Scottish parliamentary elections, and acknowledging there is no reason at all why she couldn't do otherwise, I feel like she would really want to represent a Scottish seat, of which all but one of the scottish Tory seats are newly taken so no one likely to retire anytime soon and most are young enough that one wouldn't expect a sudden change in their circumstances. Even opening up to UK wide, there may not be any by-elections in the next few years in a winnable seat for the Tories, a lot of them have seemed to have be in Labour heartland seats.
Yes, I was thinking central office could lean on a sitting tory MP in a safe seat. But I think it's a good point re it really needing to be a Scottish seat. So it's probably in the lap of the gods then. The other issue is would it feel right for someone who had been an MP for only a year or so to? I said it was a tricky path.
If she had an experienced MP as, say, First Secretary of State to act as her portal to Westminster I could see her rising to the top job fairly quickly in those circumstances, allaying concerns she would not know how to operate in Westminster. But I think it is a question for post 2021 - of SCON continue to do well there, making some more gains and solidify second place at least, then her star will be able to keep rising.
If she is the saviour then Labour are certainties to be in power. She is useless.
2021 will be the making or breaking of her I think - go backwards or stay still and her legend will stop, since would make 2017 seem more of a fluke or down to other circumstances.
The Conservative manifesto of 2005 talked only of deregulation and doesn't even mention financial regulation as far as I can see. Wishful thinking to say they would have done anything on a regulator of the city - if anything they wanted to move further in the other direction.
Deregulation of much that utter FSA nonsense was a very good idea. Why, for example, was it helpful to anyone to have bank employees forced to pass a brain-dead learn-by-rote multiple-choice exam which included questions on the paragraph numbers of clauses in legislation (I'm not making this up!)?
You are making the same mistake as Ben: it's not a linear scale of 'more' regulation vs 'less' regulation, with more regulation being better; it's about regulating the right things in the right way.
So, yes, the Conservatives wanted to unroll some of that nonsense. An excellent thing too.
If elected in 2005, would they have put in place the sensible changes to prudential regulation which Osborne later put in place? I don't know, but I do know that they wouldn't have set the thing up wrongly in the first place, for all the well-known reasons that Peter Lilley laid out in 1997.
@Big_G_Northwales Even by your standards that's a remarkably ignorant and frankly stupid thing to say. It betrays a complete failure to understand the nuance of Spanish history and nationalism. To go from voting Remain to posting that sort of nonsense in 15 months suggests a completely of philosophical core and poor critical faculties.
The question for Junckers and the EU elite is that as they go down the road to abolition of Nation states into one Europe it will feed the monster of Nationalism and regional self determination resulting in the implosion of the EU.
Catalan is a demonstration of the anger of people wanting a democratic vote on their own destiny
Mark Stone of Sky saying that under the orders of an European government Police were pulling people out by their hair, stamped upon them, put on one side, and illegal rubber bullets fired at them
Over 470 injuries
Thank goodness we are leaving
What's this got to do with the EU? It's Spanish police acting on Spanish government orders. Do you think the EU should send an army in to sort it all out?
Because some in the EU want to see an end to the nation state, while the protesters in Spain are trying to create a new one.
@Big_G_Northwales Even by your standards that's a remarkably ignorant and frankly stupid thing to say. It betrays a complete failure to understand the nuance of Spanish history and nationalism. To go from voting Remain to posting that sort of nonsense in 15 months suggests a completely of philosophical core and poor critical faculties.
While I assume the UK government would have taken legal action, I would hope that they wouldn't perform the same crackdown that appears to be going on in Spain.
@Big_G_Northwales Even by your standards that's a remarkably ignorant and frankly stupid thing to say. It betrays a complete failure to understand the nuance of Spanish history and nationalism. To go from voting Remain to posting that sort of nonsense in 15 months suggests a completely of philosophical core and poor critical faculties.
You are seriously condemning someone for a failure to understand nuance mere minutes after wholesale dismissing swathes of comments and posters on the basis of a fallacious, insulting and baseless accusation of xenophobia which ignored all nuanced profession of opinion on the matter?
I cannot say I agree with BigG on that point, but from where I am standing I regret to say you appear to be embodying an approach which you are trying to condemn in others when it comes to lack of nuance. You've taken a few minor points and extrapolated that out to dismiss an entire breadth of discussion as meaningless, for reasons I truly cannot guess at. You seriously think all the Tories, the Labourites, the SNP people, the lDs, who have made a point that the spanish government have handled this badly, are all jingoistic xenophobes?
Is Southam on the ground in Catalonia? Wondering what the mood is like there as there have been some disturbing scenes.
Not sure if it's already been commented on but Barca's decision to play to an empty stadium looks like a bold political statement. Will the Spanish FA react I wonder? Sport can never ignore politics.
Barca apparently asked to call the game off but the Spanish FA refused. They came out in Catalonia colors but reverted to normal strip for match. Las Palmas's jersey has a small Spanish flag with today's date on it, not part of their strip usually I believe.
Football as the continuation of politics by other means.
@Malcolmg I was trying to understand it rather than justify it I think. But my main intent was to challenge the jingoistic tone of some comments that the Diegos had cocked it up. After our experiences in Ireland I'd have hoped we'd have more humility.
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Well, they could have said 'This is an illegal referendum. We urge Catalan citizens not to take part in it, and in any case because it is illegal the result has no significance either way'. I'd have thought that that would have been a more sensible and less inflammatory response.
Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
Basically sod all. The draft 13th Amendment was the only thing he did to try and stop it and that was never passed.
A war had already started by the time he took office - the supply ships trying to relieve Sumter had been fired on. The mere fact Buchanan was too supine to respond doesn't alter that.
The Spanish have taken extraordinarily aggressive steps to stop this from happening. I cannot help but feel whatever the legal strength of their case (which is unanswerable) the OTT nature of their behaviour will haunt them.
@Big_G_Northwales Even by your standards that's a remarkably ignorant and frankly stupid thing to say. It betrays a complete failure to understand the nuance of Spanish history and nationalism. To go from voting Remain to posting that sort of nonsense in 15 months suggests a completely of philosophical core and poor critical faculties.
Who are you to pass judgement. It is an opinion that may not fit your politics but it is not an unfair assumption
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
Perfect - say she does well in 2021, she stands for parliament in 2022, then she can be LOTO.
@Big_G_Northwales Even by your standards that's a remarkably ignorant and frankly stupid thing to say. It betrays a complete failure to understand the nuance of Spanish history and nationalism. To go from voting Remain to posting that sort of nonsense in 15 months suggests a completely of philosophical core and poor critical faculties.
While I assume the UK government would have taken legal action, I would hope that they wouldn't perform the same crackdown that appears to be going on in Spain.
Ah, I thought you were replying to malcolmg. The block quote is a handy feature btw.
'We are not leavers or remainers anymore we are just Brits'
What a reception
Didn't hear the speech. But tend to agree that she would be the tories' best hope. The mechanism for getting her to getting her to that position is a little tricky, though.
Others on here will have a much better idea of inter-party dynamics, but I would imagine her network among Westminster MPs is not that strong.....
Could not one recently have said precisely that of Corbyn.... ?
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
Perfect - say she does well in 2021, she stands for parliament in 2022, then she can be LOTO.
Even 4 RuthDavidsonMSP one of the great Tory stars the conference hall is half empty. Where is everyone
The question for Junckers and the EU elite is that as they go down the road to abolition of Nation states into one Europe it will feed the monster of Nationalism and regional self determination resulting in the implosion of the EU.
Catalan is a demonstration of the anger of people wanting a democratic vote on their own destiny
Mark Stone of Sky saying that under the orders of an European government Police were pulling people out by their hair, stamped upon them, put on one side, and illegal rubber bullets fired at them
Over 470 injuries
Thank goodness we are leaving
What's this got to do with the EU? It's Spanish police acting on Spanish government orders. Do you think the EU should send an army in to sort it all out?
It was Sky who refered to an European Government and my point is that Junckers more Europe is destined to fail. There are too many diverse views across 27 Nations to expect they will role over to one super state. It will not happen
More than likely that the Tories have peaked in Scotland now and will fall back to third place at the 2021 Holyrood elections. What impact would that have on Davidson's standing?
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
Neither has Jeremy Corbyn, of course. Indeed, Davidson at least has experience of leading a political party even if it is a grouping within the larger overall party. Corbyn didn't even have that.
Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
Basically sod all. The draft 13th Amendment was the only thing he did to try and stop it and that was never passed.
A war had already started by the time he took office - the supply ships trying to relieve Sumter had been fired on. The mere fact Buchanan was too supine to respond doesn't alter that.
The Spanish have taken extraordinarily aggressive steps to stop this from happening. I cannot help but feel whatever the legal strength of their case (which is unanswerable) the OTT nature of their behaviour will haunt them.
Legal fascism , lovely next people on here will be saying Hitler was hard done by.
@Malcolmg I was trying to understand it rather than justify it I think. But my main intent was to challenge the jingoistic tone of some comments that the Diegos had cocked it up. After our experiences in Ireland I'd have hoped we'd have more humility.
So basically because NI is messed up, if any British citizens express an opinion on Catalonia, noting the true fact that our Scottish Indy independence process has been better handled (albeit with far different circumstances) and that perhaps beating people in the street was not inevitable and perhaps it could have been handled better, that means they are xenophobes, that they hate foreigners, or intensely dislike them?
@Richard_Nabavi That's very true. But using public money and the state machinery to hold an illegal vote is crossing a Rubicon. Any central government anywhere would act in some manner to enforce the law.
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
Well, yes, but when the alternative might be Boris, let alone Jacob Rees-Mogg...
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
I've heard the argument is the referendum was funded with federal cash, a mis-use of funding. Not that it would justify what's going on in my opinion.
@Malcolmg I was trying to understand it rather than justify it I think. But my main intent was to challenge the jingoistic tone of some comments that the Diegos had cocked it up. After our experiences in Ireland I'd have hoped we'd have more humility.
The rats that run this country have learned nothing other than keeping power at any cost. The same tactics were used in the miners strike so there should be little bravado on here about how it would not happen here.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
More than likely that the Tories have peaked in Scotland now and will fall back to third place at the 2021 Holyrood elections. What impact would that have on Davidson's standing?
Severe, at least in terms of any ambitions to proceed to Westminster (which, in fairness, may not be part of her plans at all). Her 2016 and 2017 successes would be presumed to be as part of a tide of support fluctuations for the major parties rather than her leadership.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
Several observers on twitter today have tried to differentiate between 'legal' & 'legitimate', e.g. the referendum is illegal but the level of force used to try and stop it is not legitimate.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
Well, the courts have ruled the referendum is illegal. So from that point of view the Spanish government are in the right.
However, I'm at a loss to know why they think firing rubber bullets at people who are, after all, exercising a right to self-determination that is enshrined in Article 2 of the United Nations charter is going to help matters.
@Malcolmg I was trying to understand it rather than justify it I think. But my main intent was to challenge the jingoistic tone of some comments that the Diegos had cocked it up. After our experiences in Ireland I'd have hoped we'd have more humility.
The rats that run this country have learned nothing other than keeping power at any cost. The same tactics were used in the miners strike so there should be little bravado on here about how it would not happen here.
There has been speculation that it wouldn't, and hope that it wouldn't, with even scottish unionists saying they would not want the union preserved at such a cost. What there hasn't been is a mass xenophobic streak that just because our Indy process has undeniably been less problematic it means we have all the answers and the Spanish situation is directly the same or has easy solutions.
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
Well, yes, but when the alternative might be Boris, let alone Jacob Rees-Mogg...
Given the wretched choices on offer, Boris Johnson might well be the Conservatives' best practical option if a vacancy arises in the very near future. Though for myself I would suggest Michael Gove. He'd at least make the faithful happy, even if he'd appal most non-believers.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
I think several observers on twitter today have tried to diffentiate between 'legal' & 'legitimate', e.g. the referendum is illegal but the level of force used to try and stop it is not legitimate.
That seems a sound view. The legalities appear to be solid as far as the spanish government are concerned, and if their law is an arse on this matter, well, many laws are in many countries. They'd already managed to disrupt the vote significantly in any case, it is unlikely many places were going to line up to praise the self organised referendum on probably low turnout as the supreme and undeniable expression of the Catalan democratic will. But no, we have been informed that is the view a xenophobe takes.
More than likely that the Tories have peaked in Scotland now and will fall back to third place at the 2021 Holyrood elections. What impact would that have on Davidson's standing?
Severe, at least in terms of any ambitions to proceed to Westminster (which, in fairness, may not be part of her plans at all). Her 2016 and 2017 successes would be presumed to be as part of a tide of support fluctuations for the major parties rather than her leadership.
I suspect that Labour's recovery there will have dashed the prospects of pro-Tory tactical voting and that many who switched to the Tories on that basis will now return home.
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
Well, yes, but when the alternative might be Boris, let alone Jacob Rees-Mogg...
Given the wretched choices on offer, Boris Johnson might well be the Conservatives' best practical option if a vacancy arises in the very near future. Though for myself I would suggest Michael Gove. He'd at least make the faithful happy, even if he'd appal most non-believers.
Well, at least, unlike Trump apparently, they're both clever enough to piss downwind.
More than likely that the Tories have peaked in Scotland now and will fall back to third place at the 2021 Holyrood elections. What impact would that have on Davidson's standing?
Severe, at least in terms of any ambitions to proceed to Westminster (which, in fairness, may not be part of her plans at all). Her 2016 and 2017 successes would be presumed to be as part of a tide of support fluctuations for the major parties rather than her leadership.
I suspect that Labour's recovery there will have dashed the prospects of pro-Tory tactical voting and that many who switched to the Tories on that basis will now return home.
Yes, I was surprised at how much they bounced back in quite a few places, as there had been speculation they'd be behind the LDs in terms of seats.
Certainly, given the huge swings in a great many seats in 2015 then 2017, I think most of the parties have reason to continue to be nervous ahead of the next set of elections - at present there's no telling what the scottish electorate will do!
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
Well, the courts have ruled the referendum is illegal. So from that point of view the Spanish government are in the right.
However, I'm at a loss to know why they think firing rubber bullets at people who are, after all, exercising a right to self-determination that is enshrined in Article 2 of the United Nations charter is going to help matters.
Wikipedia is telling me that it is also against Catlan law which requires two thirds of MPs in the Catalan parliament to vote for any changes to Catalonia's status (the referendum law describes the vote as binding).
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
If to over simplify the Brexit crisis is driven largely by English Nationalism and partly in response to Metropolitan liberalism then can the answer really be a Scottish Lesbian ?
The answer is an emphatic No or an emphatic Yes depending on when the question is asked. Davidson's key challenge is getting the timing right. The evidence suggests she's capable of that. She judged astutely the imperial overstretch of nationalists in Scotland and a desire for unity and to move on. She seems to have spotted a similar opening as Brexit nationalists overreach.
More than likely that the Tories have peaked in Scotland now and will fall back to third place at the 2021 Holyrood elections. What impact would that have on Davidson's standing?
By 2021 Brexit will be done, May will almost certainly have gone and a new general election called.
Either the Tories will have won it in which case they will probably lose the next general election given no party has won most seats in 5 consecutive general elections in the last 100 years or they will have lost it and a new opposition leader will already be in place taking on the Corbyn government.
Though if the latter is the case and it is a Corbyn minority government propped up by the SNP and maybe the LDs too that would be an ideal scenario for Davidson in the 2021 Holyrood elections
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
Surely unless the Tories are actually the largest party Labour would look to support the SNP rather than them?
It has to be said they would be in a difficult position if there was a close result and they were third - support the SNP and annoy all their unionist supporters, or support the Tories and make their socialist backers incandescent with fury. But my money would be on them backing the SNP.
That does of course presuppose they don't recover to head the field themselves, and I don't think that should be ruled out either at some point.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
Neither has Jeremy Corbyn, of course. Indeed, Davidson at least has experience of leading a political party even if it is a grouping within the larger overall party. Corbyn didn't even have that.
LOL, The handful of Tory no-hopers at Holyrood, that is the best laugh I have had in a long time.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
Well, the courts have ruled the referendum is illegal. So from that point of view the Spanish government are in the right.
However, I'm at a loss to know why they think firing rubber bullets at people who are, after all, exercising a right to self-determination that is enshrined in Article 2 of the United Nations charter is going to help matters.
Wikipedia is telling me that it is also against Catlan law which requires two thirds of MPs in the Catalan parliament to vote for any changes to Catalonia's status (the referendum law describes the vote as binding).
As we saw here, if a clear majority had voted for Out I think their parliamentarians would have fallen into line.
But it should not have been described as 'binding' from that point of view.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Any sense why they didn't just try to ignore it, or push for an 'abstain' campaign? Shooting people is not going to make you any friends.
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
Neither has Jeremy Corbyn, of course. Indeed, Davidson at least has experience of leading a political party even if it is a grouping within the larger overall party. Corbyn didn't even have that.
LOL, The handful of Tory no-hopers at Holyrood, that is the best laugh I have had in a long time.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
You've said "illegal referendum" four times there. But what does that mean?
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
Well, the courts have ruled the referendum is illegal. So from that point of view the Spanish government are in the right.
However, I'm at a loss to know why they think firing rubber bullets at people who are, after all, exercising a right to self-determination that is enshrined in Article 2 of the United Nations charter is going to help matters.
Wikipedia is telling me that it is also against Catlan law which requires two thirds of MPs in the Catalan parliament to vote for any changes to Catalonia's status (the referendum law describes the vote as binding).
As we saw here, if a clear majority had voted for Out I think their parliamentarians would have fallen into line.
But it should not have been described as 'binding' from that point of view.
Why should they fall into line, it's an "illegal" vote. A lot of people won't vote because it's been described as illegal.
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
LOL, another Scottish expert who has obviously never been within 500 miles of the place. Next you will be telling me pigs could fly. Labour are very thick and stupid but even they are not that thick.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
Another rather bizarre comment. A bare handful have made this about a wider EU issue, and as pointed out Labour and SNP supporters have also made comments, very thoughtfully, that the Spanish state has not helped itself and, in the face of Catalan provocation yes, has escalated things still further.
And yet you have interpreted this issue solely as one of the Eurosceptic right seeking distraction from Brexit because why else would they care about Catalonia. Even if it were just them commenting on it, which it demonstrably is not, one doesn't need to care about Catalonia or even the EU to take a view on events as seen in the news. So given it is not merely the Eurosecptic right commenting on this, the idea 'there can be no other explanation' for the comments other than Brexit xenophobia is absurd to say the least. I had no idea that SNP and Labour supporters, most of whom I believe were remainers, formed part of the British eurosceptic right.You appear to be viewing it entirely within the context of the wider Brexit issue, when for one of the first times in a long time on PB, this issue appears to have cut across those lines, and on lines of indy and unionist for that matter. Sorry to disappoint you, but though some have made a point about the EU on it, not everything is about Brexit.
Jeremy Corbyn ✔@jeremycorbyn I urge @Theresa_May to appeal directly to Rajoy to end police violence in Catalonia & find political solution to this constitutional crisis. 4:57 PM - Oct 1, 2017
Well thats the Spanish government vetoing Corbyn's attempt to get full access to the single market if he ever becomes PM
Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
Neither has Jeremy Corbyn, of course. Indeed, Davidson at least has experience of leading a political party even if it is a grouping within the larger overall party. Corbyn didn't even have that.
Jeremy Corbyn is not being parachuted into the role of Prime Minister but seeking the public's backing to get the job. A party that is installing a politician in the role of Prime Minister has a responsibility to choose someone who has unquestionable experience.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Indescribable scenes in a western democracy: riot police beating up old women.... to stop them voting???
If I was an uncertain swing voter on Catalan independence, living in Barcelona, I would now want independence from Madrid TOMORROW.
Aside from the many scenes of violence in Barcelona, the video of the black clad stormtroopers marching into a small village and attacking people was pretty chilling from a symbolise perspective.
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
Surely unless the Tories are actually the largest party Labour would look to support the SNP rather than them?
It has to be said they would be in a difficult position if there was a close result and they were third - support the SNP and annoy all their unionist supporters, or support the Tories and make their socialist backers incandescent with fury. But my money would be on them backing the SNP.
That does of course presuppose they don't recover to head the field themselves, and I don't think that should be ruled out either at some point.
Maybe a more interesting scenario is if Labour come second, but can combine with the 3rd-placed Tories for a majority - in that case Labour get the First Minister, but still face a potential backlash (though perhaps less of one than if they were junior partners to the Tories). Do they go for it? Do the Tories?
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
@Malcolmg I was trying to understand it rather than justify it I think. But my main intent was to challenge the jingoistic tone of some comments that the Diegos had cocked it up. After our experiences in Ireland I'd have hoped we'd have more humility.
The rats that run this country have learned nothing other than keeping power at any cost. The same tactics were used in the miners strike so there should be little bravado on here about how it would not happen here.
There is a slight difference between an elected government trying to allow non striking miners to go to work free of intimidation and a government banning people from voting in a referendum
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
I don't know that there's much attempt to use the Catalan situation to attack the EU, but it is most certainly the case that the EU will be put into a most awkward position by it, especially if the Spanish government is widely seen as having heavily over-reacted. The EU and the various players within it will be pulled in multiple contradictory directions: respect for legalities, not wanting to take sides in an internal dispute, not wanting to encourage other separatist movements, not wanting to criticise an EU government, but not wanting to be seen to support a hardline crackdown. At the same time, they can't really stay out of it, because the Catalans (like the SNP) want to remain as part of the EU.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
Another rather bizarre comment. A bare handful have made this about a wider EU issue, and as pointed out Labour and SNP supporters have also made comments, very thoughtfully, that the Spanish state has not helped itself and, in the face of Catalan provocation yes, has escalated things still further.
And yet you have interpreted this issue solely as one of the Eurosceptic right seeking distraction from Brexit because why else would they care about Catalonia. Even if it were just them commenting on it, which it demonstrably is not, one doesn't need to care about Catalonia or even the EU to take a view on events as seen in the news.
So given it is not merely the Eurosecptic right commenting on this, the idea 'there can be no other explanation' for the comments other than Brexit xenophobia is absurd to say the least. I had no idea that SNP and Labour supporters, most of whom I believe were remainers, formed part of the British eurosceptic right.
Nah. If it was, say, Momentum launching a referendum for London to stay in the EU, the same people would be calling for the truncheons.
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Any sense why they didn't just try to ignore it, or push for an 'abstain' campaign? Shooting people is not going to make you any friends.
There is a certain pig-headed obstinacy in the Spanish character that throughout the centuries has made bad situations worse. That's where we're at. For traditionalists, today is a great day. The Spanish state has done just what it would have done 50, 60 or 70 years ago.
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
LOL, another Scottish expert who has obviously never been within 500 miles of the place. Next you will be telling me pigs could fly. Labour are very thick and stupid but even they are not that thick.
LOL, I think this is the first time I've had a MalcolmG bitchslap
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Well sorry to add to your woes but you are also now a xenophobe and a member of the eurosceptic right for that view, according to some.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
Another rather bizarre comment. A bare handful have made this about a wider EU issue, and as pointed out Labour and SNP supporters have also made comments, very thoughtfully, that the Spanish state has not helped itself and, in the face of Catalan provocation yes, has escalated things still further.
And yet you have interpreted this issue solely as one of the Eurosceptic right seeking distraction from Brexit because why else would they care about Catalonia. Even if it were just them commenting on it, which it demonstrably is not, one doesn't need to care about Catalonia or even the EU to take a view on events as seen in the news.
So given it is not merely the Eurosecptic right commenting on this, the idea 'there can be no other explanation' for the comments other than Brexit xenophobia is absurd to say the least. I had no idea that SNP and Labour supporters, most of whom I believe were remainers, formed part of the British eurosceptic right.
Nah. If it was, say, Momentum launching a referendum for London to stay in the EU, the same people would be calling for the truncheons.
I can only assume you are trolling now. There was a big demo recently, and I don't recall anyone calling for the truncheons.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
Another rather bizarre comment. A bare handful have made this about a wider EU issue, and as pointed out Labour and SNP supporters have also made comments, very thoughtfully, that the Spanish state has not helped itself and, in the face of Catalan provocation yes, has escalated things still further.
And yet you have interpreted this issue solely as one of the Eurosceptic right seeking distraction from Brexit because why else would they care about Catalonia. Even if it were just them commenting on it, which it demonstrably is not, one doesn't need to care about Catalonia or even the EU to take a view on events as seen in the news.
So given it is not merely the Eurosecptic right commenting on this, the idea 'there can be no other explanation' for the comments other than Brexit xenophobia is absurd to say the least. I had no idea that SNP and Labour supporters, most of whom I believe were remainers, formed part of the British eurosceptic right.
Nah. If it was, say, Momentum launching a referendum for London to stay in the EU, the same people would be calling for the truncheons.
Southam, Union Divvie and SeanT all marching in lockstep on that? Yeah right.
This is not a leave vs remain or union vs indy or even left vs right thing. It's not even as though the spanish state is the only party that is to blame for escalation. But they are the ones having people beaten for trying to vote. Yes, in an illegal referendum, but it isn't left or right or remain or leavey to ask if that was necessary.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
It's hard to see any immediate outcome other than an escalating stand-off between civil disobedience and government repression.
The issue for the Spanish government was not whether they had the law on their side but whether sending in the police with orders to act as they have done today was wise?
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
Another rather bizarre comment. A bare handful have made this about a wider EU issue, and as pointed out Labour and SNP supporters have also made comments, very thoughtfully, that the Spanish state has not helped itself and, in the face of Catalan provocation yes, has escalated things still further.
And yet you have interpreted this issue solely as one of the Eurosceptic right seeking distraction from Brexit because why else would they care about Catalonia. Even if it were just them commenting on it, which it demonstrably is not, one doesn't need to care about Catalonia or even the EU to take a view on events as seen in the news.
So given it is not merely the Eurosecptic right commenting on this, the idea 'there can be no other explanation' for the comments other than Brexit xenophobia is absurd to say the least. I had no idea that SNP and Labour supporters, most of whom I believe were remainers, formed part of the British eurosceptic right.
Nah. If it was, say, Momentum launching a referendum for London to stay in the EU, the same people would be calling for the truncheons.
I can only assume you are trolling now. There was a big demo recently, and I don't recall anyone calling for the truncheons.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
Gods, it must be awkward to be a member of the regional police right now for starters.
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
LOL, another Scottish expert who has obviously never been within 500 miles of the place. Next you will be telling me pigs could fly. Labour are very thick and stupid but even they are not that thick.
LOL, I think this is the first time I've had a MalcolmG bitchslap
Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
Basically sod all. The draft 13th Amendment was the only thing he did to try and stop it and that was never passed.
A war had already started by the time he took office - the supply ships trying to relieve Sumter had been fired on. The mere fact Buchanan was too supine to respond doesn't alter that.
The Spanish have taken extraordinarily aggressive steps to stop this from happening. I cannot help but feel whatever the legal strength of their case (which is unanswerable) the OTT nature of their behaviour will haunt them.
The American Civil War took place BECAUSE Lincoln was elected. If there had been a Douglas administration certainly the South would not have seceded althrough perhaps some of the North and Mid States might have gone some way close - reversing the dynamic from what actually happened. My guess is that in that scenario War could have been deferred for four years, but not prevented. Of course Douglas was dead within two years so whether his Vice would also have deferred war, who can say ?
As a lame duck Buchanan - whose election deferred Civil War in 1856 - could do nothing in the Inter-Presidential period which was 4 1/2 months back then.
The Spain - Scotland analogy is false. Should be Spain - Northern Ireland. The difference was the separatists in NI were afraid of the ballot box - understandably
In relation to Davidson, I'm not sure people have realised just how feasible the SNP losing office at the next Holyrood election is? The SNP+Greens only need to lose a combined 5 seats, and the Unionist parties will have a majority for a Coalition, likely with Davidson at the helm, even if the SNP remain the largest party.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
There would be no reason for Labour to support either though.Abstain and allow a minority Government to dangle at the end of a rope would be a more attractive option which might lead to fresh elections in due course.
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
I don't know that there's much attempt to use the Catalan situation to attack the EU, but it is most certainly the case that the EU will be put into a most awkward position by it, especially if the Spanish government is widely seen as having heavily over-reacted. The EU and the various players within it will be pulled in multiple contradictory directions: respect for legalities, not wanting to take sides in an internal dispute, not wanting to encourage other separatist movements, not wanting to criticise an EU government, but not wanting to be seen to support a hardline crackdown. At the same time, they can't really stay out of it, because the Catalans (like the SNP) want to remain as part of the EU.
No government anywhere can recognise UDI. That's a green light to any nationalist cause, however ridiculous. But what today has done is internationalise what was previously a domestic issue. The Catalan question is no longer something that cab be just leftbto Spain. The Spanish nationalist PP have brought about the precise opposite of what they wanted. They've handed a huge, possibly defining, victory to the separatists.
Final thought for the afternoon. I was reading the Dead Tree Mail on Sunday. The interview with Phillip Hammond is extraordinary. The wounds of June are still raw as is the animus towards Timothy/Hill. If you read it in conjunction with the equally extraordinary Javid interview in the Observer then...
In many ways Boris isn't the main story. Hidden by his showmanship sitting Cabinet Members are conducting public post mortems of a government that's still in office. The dialectic that's opening up is between Tories who want to get politics to a post Brexit state asap and Tories who want to relitigate Brexit to get a harder, faster, cleaner one.
Once again, the Tories finding their unconditional defence of "free markets" isn't shared by the public.
Nope. There’s a huge difference between a free market, and a large loss-making company who like to think that long-standing regulations shouldn’t apply to themselves.
The question for Junckers and the EU elite is that as they go down the road to abolition of Nation states into one Europe it will feed the monster of Nationalism and regional self determination resulting in the implosion of the EU.
Catalan is a demonstration of the anger of people wanting a democratic vote on their own destiny
Mark Stone of Sky saying that under the orders of an European government Police were pulling people out by their hair, stamped upon them, put on one side, and illegal rubber bullets fired at them
Over 470 injuries
Thank goodness we are leaving
What's this got to do with the EU? It's Spanish police acting on Spanish government orders. Do you think the EU should send an army in to sort it all out?
Because some in the EU want to see an end to the nation state, while the protesters in Spain are trying to create a new one.
and because the same Spanish government has greater influence over how we are governed if we remain in the EU.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
Another rather bizarre comment. A bare handful have made this about a wider EU issue, and as pointed out Labour and SNP supporters have also made comments, very thoughtfully, that the Spanish state has not helped itself and, in the face of Catalan provocation yes, has escalated things still further.
And yet you have interpreted this issue solely as one of the Eurosceptic right seeking distraction from Brexit because why else would they care about Catalonia. Even if it were just them commenting on it, which it demonstrably is not, one doesn't need to care about Catalonia or even the EU to take a view on events as seen in the news.
So given it is not merely the Eurosecptic right commenting on this, the idea 'there can be no other explanation' for the comments other than Brexit xenophobia is absurd to say the least. I had no idea that SNP and Labour supporters, most of whom I believe were remainers, formed part of the British eurosceptic right.
Nah. If it was, say, Momentum launching a referendum for London to stay in the EU, the same people would be calling for the truncheons.
I can only assume you are trolling now. There was a big demo recently, and I don't recall anyone calling for the truncheons.
I said referendum, not demo.
My mistake, thought you had said demo calling for a referendum. Still, calls for a referendum a plenty and no one is calling for the truncheons.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
What about longer term? I mean, having tried an unofficial referendum, which was ignored, and then this illegal one which they wanted to lead to a UDI, which will probably result in Madrid taking over, will the indy parties stand at the next regionals on the basis of if they win a majority a vote in the regional assembly will be enough to declare? In which case would Madrid just band the parties altogether?
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
I don't know that there's much attempt to use the Catalan situation to attack the EU, but it is most certainly the case that the EU will be put into a most awkward position by it, especially if the Spanish government is widely seen as having heavily over-reacted. The EU and the various players within it will be pulled in multiple contradictory directions: respect for legalities, not wanting to take sides in an internal dispute, not wanting to encourage other separatist movements, not wanting to criticise an EU government, but not wanting to be seen to support a hardline crackdown. At the same time, they can't really stay out of it, because the Catalans (like the SNP) want to remain as part of the EU.
Totally agree. They've been put in a most invidious position by today's events. There really is no putting the genie back into the bottle now. Support Madrid and they risk derision across the whole continent for supporting the cack handedness with which Madrid has acted today. Support for the Catalans is unthinkable for a whole number of reasons.
I'm absolutely with the Catalans, they've been treated with contempt by Madrid, but the course and cycles of history are running in their direction, just as it is with other separatist movements across the world in the long term. It's the old adage, in good times people and nations come together, in bad times they separate apart. Madrid is trying to defend the indefensible in the long term. Catalonia will become independent again at some point, just like the EU is doomed. It's a matter of when, not if.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
What about longer term? I mean, having tried an unofficial referendum, which was ignored, and then this illegal one which they wanted to lead to a UDI, which will probably result in Madrid taking over, will the indy parties stand at the next regionals on the basis of if they win a majority a vote in the regional assembly will be enough to declare? In which case would Madrid just band the parties altogether?
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
Abolish the Parliament and appoint regional governors? I’ve heard that has worked well before
I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.
Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
Lots of jmplicit xenophobia in many of these Catalan comments. What do you think would happen if the Scottish government or Northern Ireland Assembly tried to hold a clearly illegal Independence referendum ? Westminster would try to stop it. Hopefully less ham fistedly but it would use the law the stop an illegal referendum. Just as Trump would if Vermont tried to hold an illegal referendum. Look at what Lincoln did to preserve national unity.
We can argue Madrid shouldn't have got into this mess but it did. Once in it what was it supposed to do in the face of an illegal referendum ?
Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.
Utter bollocks from you Eurofanatics. In case you missed it many of us on here are pro Catalan and Scottish independence votes for exactly the same reason we are pro Brexit. It is people like you who cannot conceive of the EU ever doing anything wrong who are the hypocrites. But then of course your ignorant hypocrisy is not exactly news.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
But you weren't just asking that, since many others asked the same (some thinking we would have done better, others less sure) you accused many people of being xenophobes, in essence being racists, because of the view the spanish authorities, at least insofar as today's events, bear the brunt of the blame. If you were merely asking if we would handle it better, then the answer as seen has been diverse and to which the reasonable answer is probably that we'd hope we'd do better, and that we definitely managed to avoid it getting to this point, even though the situations are not directly applicable, but the truth is we cannot be sure what we'd do.
So what's going to happen in Catalonia tonight and tomorrow? Is the result going to be announced, duly discounted by the national government and everyone nonchalantly go into work tomorrow? If not, what then?
First we'll see the turnout and the result. The photos are misleading. In most of Catalonia it's been a peaceful, orderly day. Presumably, though, those who did vote will have overwhelmingly backed independence. That means we should expext UDI and then Madrid assuming central control. That will make things worse, of course.
What about longer term? I mean, having tried an unofficial referendum, which was ignored, and then this illegal one which they wanted to lead to a UDI, which will probably result in Madrid taking over, will the indy parties stand at the next regionals on the basis of if they win a majority a vote in the regional assembly will be enough to declare? In which case would Madrid just band the parties altogether?
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
Longer term, today's events pretty much ensure Catalonia will get some form of independence. The PP in Madrid have orovided a text book example of what not to do when faced with a separatist force. The how to do it properly was done by David Cameron.
Comments
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/01/sadiq-khan-backed-by-londoners-uber-ban-tfl
And you decide to throw out the xenophobia card, thus at a stroke invaliding the great thrust of balanced and thoughtful commentary (and you have applied it to more than a handful, calling it 'many'), most conveniently absolving you of any need to address any alternate points of view, which your other comments show you have ignored since they addressed those points. A lazy, lazy approach - these people must be xenophobes, of course! Apparently a diverse crown of PBers from Tories, to Labour to SNP supporters have turned out to be xenophobes given it has had more cut across than most issues i have seen on here.
I presume you base your insulting view on the several 'thank goodness the scottish indy vote went better than this' comments, but you clearly haven't ready the many many others which have suggested what they think Madrid could have done differently - ignore it, discredit it, and so on - since you put forth the question as though no one has done anything other than condemn the spanish authorities for their hamfisted approach, when in fact plenty have done, which makes a mockery of your insult.
Total cost of attendance at Rutgers are in-state: $31,733, out-of-state: $47,384
Or, in UK terms, the in-state fees are 10,729 pounds (just tuition) or 23,685 pounds (total cost of attendance).
Hence, your statement is ***incorrect***.
Rutgers, the State University of New Jersey, charges in-state tuition fees in excess of the UK tuition fees.
Out-of-state fees are way more, and of course the private universities are way, way more again. However, the private universities use their endowment to offer needs-blind admission (which is where I think the Russell group will end up).
Rutgers is a good state university, but nothing special. Probably comparable to a middling-rank Russell Group University here (say Exeter).
You are making the same mistake as Ben: it's not a linear scale of 'more' regulation vs 'less' regulation, with more regulation being better; it's about regulating the right things in the right way.
So, yes, the Conservatives wanted to unroll some of that nonsense. An excellent thing too.
If elected in 2005, would they have put in place the sensible changes to prudential regulation which Osborne later put in place? I don't know, but I do know that they wouldn't have set the thing up wrongly in the first place, for all the well-known reasons that Peter Lilley laid out in 1997.
I cannot say I agree with BigG on that point, but from where I am standing I regret to say you appear to be embodying an approach which you are trying to condemn in others when it comes to lack of nuance. You've taken a few minor points and extrapolated that out to dismiss an entire breadth of discussion as meaningless, for reasons I truly cannot guess at. You seriously think all the Tories, the Labourites, the SNP people, the lDs, who have made a point that the spanish government have handled this badly, are all jingoistic xenophobes?
Does that really seem plausible?
They came out in Catalonia colors but reverted to normal strip for match. Las Palmas's jersey has a small Spanish flag with today's date on it, not part of their strip usually I believe.
Football as the continuation of politics by other means.
She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.
A war had already started by the time he took office - the supply ships trying to relieve Sumter had been fired on. The mere fact Buchanan was too supine to respond doesn't alter that.
The Spanish have taken extraordinarily aggressive steps to stop this from happening. I cannot help but feel whatever the legal strength of their case (which is unanswerable) the OTT nature of their behaviour will haunt them.
If I book out a hall in every town and village in Scotland, then send a letter to everyone on the electoral register saying "Come and place your vote", what laws have I broken?
If I then declare independence as a result of that then, yes, sure, that might be illegal. But Madrid's argument appears to be "any referendum is illegal simply because Spain is an indivisible state".
Sound logic.
I suspect the Catalan government is using public funds to pay for the referendum, therefore your comparison is not entirely valid.
However, I'm at a loss to know why they think firing rubber bullets at people who are, after all, exercising a right to self-determination that is enshrined in Article 2 of the United Nations charter is going to help matters.
Or atleast, arithmetically the majority for a Unionist Coalition will be there, whether the various parties will be willing to go along with it is another question - which maybe gives extra significance to the Scottish Labour leadership contest (one assumes Sarwar and the centrist faction would be much more open to it).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938248/Police-shoot-dead-knife-wielding-man-Marseille-station.html
Certainly, given the huge swings in a great many seats in 2015 then 2017, I think most of the parties have reason to continue to be nervous ahead of the next set of elections - at present there's no telling what the scottish electorate will do!
The answer is an emphatic No or an emphatic Yes depending on when the question is asked. Davidson's key challenge is getting the timing right. The evidence suggests she's capable of that. She judged astutely the imperial overstretch of nationalists in Scotland and a desire for unity and to move on. She seems to have spotted a similar opening as Brexit nationalists overreach.
Either the Tories will have won it in which case they will probably lose the next general election given no party has won most seats in 5 consecutive general elections in the last 100 years or they will have lost it and a new opposition leader will already be in place taking on the Corbyn government.
Though if the latter is the case and it is a Corbyn minority government propped up by the SNP and maybe the LDs too that would be an ideal scenario for Davidson in the 2021 Holyrood elections
It has to be said they would be in a difficult position if there was a close result and they were third - support the SNP and annoy all their unionist supporters, or support the Tories and make their socialist backers incandescent with fury. But my money would be on them backing the SNP.
That does of course presuppose they don't recover to head the field themselves, and I don't think that should be ruled out either at some point.
But it should not have been described as 'binding' from that point of view.
And yet you have interpreted this issue solely as one of the Eurosceptic right seeking distraction from Brexit because why else would they care about Catalonia. Even if it were just them commenting on it, which it demonstrably is not, one doesn't need to care about Catalonia or even the EU to take a view on events as seen in the news.
So given it is not merely the Eurosecptic right commenting on this, the idea 'there can be no other explanation' for the comments other than Brexit xenophobia is absurd to say the least. I had no idea that SNP and Labour supporters, most of whom I believe were remainers, formed part of the British eurosceptic right.You appear to be viewing it entirely within the context of the wider Brexit issue, when for one of the first times in a long time on PB, this issue appears to have cut across those lines, and on lines of indy and unionist for that matter. Sorry to disappoint you, but though some have made a point about the EU on it, not everything is about Brexit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmQwRmKjKSc
This is not a leave vs remain or union vs indy or even left vs right thing. It's not even as though the spanish state is the only party that is to blame for escalation. But they are the ones having people beaten for trying to vote. Yes, in an illegal referendum, but it isn't left or right or remain or leavey to ask if that was necessary.
As a lame duck Buchanan - whose election deferred Civil War in 1856 - could do nothing in the Inter-Presidential period which was 4 1/2 months back then.
The Spain - Scotland analogy is false. Should be Spain - Northern Ireland. The difference was the separatists in NI were afraid of the ballot box - understandably
In many ways Boris isn't the main story. Hidden by his showmanship sitting Cabinet Members are conducting public post mortems of a government that's still in office. The dialectic that's opening up is between Tories who want to get politics to a post Brexit state asap and Tories who want to relitigate Brexit to get a harder, faster, cleaner one.
At some point there's no more escalation to take, surely.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
I'm absolutely with the Catalans, they've been treated with contempt by Madrid, but the course and cycles of history are running in their direction, just as it is with other separatist movements across the world in the long term. It's the old adage, in good times people and nations come together, in bad times they separate apart. Madrid is trying to defend the indefensible in the long term. Catalonia will become independent again at some point, just like the EU is doomed. It's a matter of when, not if.
Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.