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  • Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a youbg one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.
  • Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    @Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.

    We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
    Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
    If Sinn Fein went ahead and organised an unofficial referendum, it would be a damp squib, because pro-Union voters would ignore it.
    To be fair in 1973, it was Nationalists who did the ignoring.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_border_poll,_1973
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Well, who wants to hand Gibraltar to Spain now?

    Mr Corbyn???

    Shocking, shocking behavior from the Spanish authorities
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Charles said:

    hunchman said:

    Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.

    I don't know that there's much attempt to use the Catalan situation to attack the EU, but it is most certainly the case that the EU will be put into a most awkward position by it, especially if the Spanish government is widely seen as having heavily over-reacted. The EU and the various players within it will be pulled in multiple contradictory directions: respect for legalities, not wanting to take sides in an internal dispute, not wanting to encourage other separatist movements, not wanting to criticise an EU government, but not wanting to be seen to support a hardline crackdown. At the same time, they can't really stay out of it, because the Catalans (like the SNP) want to remain as part of the EU.
    Totally agree. They've been put in a most invidious position by today's events. There really is no putting the genie back into the bottle now. Support Madrid and they risk derision across the whole continent for supporting the cack handedness with which Madrid has acted today. Support for the Catalans is unthinkable for a whole number of reasons.

    I'm absolutely with the Catalans, they've been treated with contempt by Madrid, but the course and cycles of history are running in their direction, just as it is with other separatist movements across the world in the long term. It's the old adage, in good times people and nations come together, in bad times they separate apart. Madrid is trying to defend the indefensible in the long term. Catalonia will become independent again at some point, just like the EU is doomed. It's a matter of when, not if.
    Don't forget the history - Catalonia was promised that it would be an equal partner in the Union of Crowns that created Spain but almost from the get go it has been subjugated.

    This goes back a long time (and the UK - or at least England - was a long term friend and ally of the Kingdom of Aragon that, together with the lands of the Count of Barcelona formed Catalonia)
    I am a bit surprised at the pro-Brexiters reaction here [ not yours ]. Catalonia’s secessionists are an unholy alliance of middle-class and centre-right nationalists and revolutionary leftists. So I would have expected many of them to support Catalonian secession. A Catalonian government in the EU will be right-wing.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a youbg one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    Give Corbyn 5 years in power.....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Sandpit said:

    I have been drinking heavily and eating the finest foods, but believe me when I say that the Spanish governmment could not have played today worse than it has. It's as if they have been trying to ensure the Catalan separatists win.

    Yes. The legality or otherwise of the referendum itself is almost irrelevant at this point - the pictures on every TV screen around the world are showing people trying to vote being attacked by riot police and baton rounds.

    Not a good look no matter what your view on Catalan independence.
    Believe it or not, it is totally relevant to the population of Spain. A clear majority are opposed to this referendum.

    How do you think the US Government would react if Alaska or Texas wanted to hold a vote on secession? Most countries are not a 'nation of nations' like the UK. We are an exception to the general rule.
    In practical terms Scotland is no separate in relation to the UK as Alaska or Texas is to the US or Catalonia to Spain, ie it has its own legislature but also sends representatives to the national legislature and shares the same head of state as the rest of the country indeed Canada granted an independence referendum to Quebec twice just as the UK has granted one to Scotland.
    What would have been your reaction to the Russian or Chinese police beating up voters in an "unofficial" election / referendum ? Be honest !
    Like iin Crimea ;)
    Yes, what would have been your reaction ? Is it the same today ? Hypocrites!
    They are not comparable, because Crimea was part of a different state and the Russians were post hoc trying to justify their invasion.

    But what Madrid has done today is wrong and, worse, ill advised.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    @Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.

    We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
    Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
    If Sinn Fein went ahead and organised an unofficial referendum, it would be a damp squib, because pro-Union voters would ignore it.
    Yes, but the police did not beat up the voters. The "result" was simply ignored. That is the matured way of handling this.
  • HYUFD said:

    Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
    No one is saying they should interfere. Verhofstadt was not interfering. But he was making it absolutely clear that certain types of response are unacceptable. Our Government should be doing the same.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Some interesting wording from the PM of Spain about the Catalans and how they 'had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote'. Now, it is pretty obvious that anyone who voted will have been well aware that it had been declared illegal, so I presume the wording choice is deliberately so he does not seem to be blaming those who participated in the vote, merely the process and the organisers.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    Charles said:

    But what Madrid has done today is wrong and, worse, ill advised.

    C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute.
  • surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    @Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.

    We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
    Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
    If Sinn Fein went ahead and organised an unofficial referendum, it would be a damp squib, because pro-Union voters would ignore it.
    Yes, but the police did not beat up the voters. The "result" was simply ignored. That is the matured way of handling this.
    Which "result"? Sinn Fein haven't organised an unofficial referendum - the question was "if".
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
    The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.

    The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
    No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
    Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
    I agree, we have to be pragmatic and that means not offending Trump or Rajoy too much if we want reasonable trading relationships with our largest 2 export destinations post Brexit
    We cannot deal with Rajoy. Spain are part of the EU. In any case, Rajoy may not even be there next week. They can't even pass the budget.
    He is PM of Spain, one of the 4 biggest economies in the EU and the country which has the largest number of British expats in the EU too. The latest 2 Spanish polls both give the PP a 5% lead over the PSOE and the next general election in Spain is not due until 2020

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Spanish_general_election
    I said we cannot do a trade deal with Spain, even if we tried. Spain is part of the EU. EU component countries do not do separate trade deals. You should know it by now.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    @Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.

    We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
    Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
    Operation Motorman abolished "Free Derry"
    Thanks Sunil I was not aware of that , just read up about it.
  • surbiton said:

    Charles said:

    hunchman said:

    Quite right. These comments are tendentious to say the least. Hitherto the British euro-sceptic Right didn't give a fig about Catalonia, and if they did it was in a pro-Madrid way because (cf Scotland) Madrid was seen as an ally in the war against separatism. Now, bizarrely, they're using any trouble on the continent as a stick to beat the EU. They must think it somehow distracts from their own woes about Brexit. There can be no other explanation.

    I don't know that there's much attempt to use the Catalan situation to attack the EU, but it is most certainly the case that the EU will be put into a most awkward position by it, especially if the Spanish government is widely seen as having heavily over-reacted. The EU and the various players within it will be pulled in multiple contradictory directions: respect for legalities, not wanting to take sides in an internal dispute, not wanting to encourage other separatist movements, not wanting to criticise an EU government, but not wanting to be seen to support a hardline crackdown. At the same time, they can't really stay out of it, because the Catalans (like the SNP) want to remain as part of the EU.
    Tber of reasons.

    I'm absolutely with the Catalans, they've been treated with contempt by Madrid, but the course and cycles of history are running in their direction, just as it is with other separatist movements across the world in the long term. It's the old adage, in good times people and nations come together, in bad times they separate apart. Madrid is trying to defend the indefensible in the long term. Catalonia will become independent again at some point, just like the EU is doomed. It's a matter of when, not if.
    Don't forget the history - Catalonia was promised that it would be an equal partner in the Union of Crowns that created Spain but almost from the get go it has been subjugated.

    This goes back a long time (and the UK - or at least England - was a long term friend and ally of the Kingdom of Aragon that, together with the lands of the Count of Barcelona formed Catalonia)
    I am a bit surprised at the pro-Brexiters reaction here [ not yours ]. Catalonia’s secessionists are an unholy alliance of middle-class and centre-right nationalists and revolutionary leftists. So I would have expected many of them to support Catalonian secession. A Catalonian government in the EU will be right-wing.
    I am in favour of a Catalan referendum.
  • Davidson would be a much better choice for the Conservatives than either Cleverly or Badenoch. Davidson's worldview is ideal for the Conservatives to make headway with the under 44s - socially liberal, and a Remainer too who understands that the current economic settlement cannot go on as it is. By contrast, the pro-Brexit Badenoch who from some of her tweets appears to admire the worldview of the Millenial disliking Brendan O'Neill is hardly the ideal choice when it comes to expanding the conservative coalition of voters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited October 2017
    Floater said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a youbg one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    Give Corbyn 5 years in power.....
    If Corbyn failed to allow a general election after 5 years in power because he thought he would lose it, either Parliament would vote the government down or there would most likely be a military coup
  • Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    @Kle4 Yes and I stand by what I said. I detect a xenophobic tinge to many of the comments implying we'd never make such a Horlicks of this situation. We've never been in this situation and the inexact historic parallels in Ireland aren't happy.

    We might make a similar mess, but I think a government confronted with a similar situation in Scotland would have called such a vote illegal, encouraged unionists to boycott it, and given support to local authorities which refused to participate.
    Do you think the reaction would be the same if a similar situation happened in Northern Ireland ?
    Yes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    HYUFD said:

    Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
    No one is saying they should interfere. Verhofstadt was not interfering. But he was making it absolutely clear that certain types of response are unacceptable. Our Government should be doing the same.
    The government does not want to make any statement which could be seen as explicitly critical of the Spanish government response given the Spanish government has a veto over any deal the UK does with the EU post Brexit
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a youbg one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    Give Corbyn 5 years in power.....
    If Corbyn failed to allow a general election after 5 years in power because he thought he would lose it, either Parliament would vote the government down or there would most likely be a military coup
    Substitute May/Johnson for Corbyn in that sentence and see how silly it looks. One may disagree with Corbyn but he's a democrat.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
    The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.

    The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
    No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
    Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
    I agree, we have to be pragmatic and that means not offending Trump or Rajoy too much if we want reasonable trading relationships with our largest 2 export destinations post Brexit
    We cannot deal with Rajoy. Spain are part of the EU. In any case, Rajoy may not even be there next week. They can't even pass the budget.
    He is PM of Spain, one of the 4 biggest economies in the EU and the country which has the largest number of British expats in the EU too. The latest 2 Spanish polls both give the PP a 5% lead over the PSOE and the next general election in Spain is not due until 2020

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Spanish_general_election
    I said we cannot do a trade deal with Spain, even if we tried. Spain is part of the EU. EU component countries do not do separate trade deals. You should know it by now.
    You should know by now too that we can only do a trade deal with the EU if every EU nation approves it, if Spain vetoed it a UK EU trade deal would collapse
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a youbg one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    Which is why I get so annoyed with Alastair Meeks when he slags off this country's decision to leave the EU.
  • HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
    The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.

    The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
    No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
    Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
    Its called having principles.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706

    HYUFD said:

    Floater said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a youbg one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    Give Corbyn 5 years in power.....
    If Corbyn failed to allow a general election after 5 years in power because he thought he would lose it, either Parliament would vote the government down or there would most likely be a military coup
    Substitute May/Johnson for Corbyn in that sentence and see how silly it looks. One may disagree with Corbyn but he's a democrat.
    Well I expect he is so it was entirely hypothetical (though John McDonnell I have my suspicions about)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
    The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.

    The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
    No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
    Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
    I am not surprised at the government response, I would not expect them to go even as far as Verhofstat's statement given our need to not antagonise government leaders on the continent, but I can be disappointed in it, and it doesn't mean as individuals one could not be much more strident.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2017

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a youbg one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    One of the best things that the UK has done in terms of foreign policy in recent years has been to help spread democracy across Europe. A major driver of that has been the EU accession process.
  • Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    "firmness and serenity" eh Rajoy

    What an absolute ......
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kle4 said:

    Some interesting wording from the PM of Spain about the Catalans and how they 'had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote'. Now, it is pretty obvious that anyone who voted will have been well aware that it had been declared illegal, so I presume the wording choice is deliberately so he does not seem to be blaming those who participated in the vote, merely the process and the organisers.

    But he still had the police beet the living shit out of people who wanted to vote

  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Imagine your MP being as barmy as her. I suspect we are going to hear a lot more from this one over the next few years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Floater said:

    kle4 said:

    Some interesting wording from the PM of Spain about the Catalans and how they 'had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote'. Now, it is pretty obvious that anyone who voted will have been well aware that it had been declared illegal, so I presume the wording choice is deliberately so he does not seem to be blaming those who participated in the vote, merely the process and the organisers.

    But he still had the police beet the living shit out of people who wanted to vote

    Oh, I wasn't assessing the worthiness of his overall response of that of the state - I just found the careful use of language in that particular statement interesting.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
    Agreed Richard .I watched Selma the other day on Netflix.Not that long ago that some states in the US treated some of its citizens with such brutality.
  • Emma Dent Coad....JFC.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    Evening all :)

    Stodge's Fourth Law of Politics states "it's easy to tell your audience what they want to hear. Politics is about telling them what they don't want to hear and convincing them it's the right thing to do."

    Speaking at a Party Conference isn't like speaking to real people - your audience is politically aware (probably) and on your side. The temptation therefore is to take the easy path as Ruth Davidson did today - say how wonderful the Party is, a few jibes at your opponents and a rallying cry. Predictable and forgettable. The activists will love it but it won't resonate beyond the walls of the Conference. "Tory says Tories are wonderful" - writes itself, doesn't it ?

    The memorable speeches are the ones which challenge the activists and the Party. May did it once as did Blair in 1994 and Cameron in 2005 with the ultimate example Kinnock's tour de force in 1985 - the highlight of his leadership and, according to David Owen, the moment he knew the SDP was finished.

    I remember Owen trying to make the multilateral argument to a sceptical Liberal Assembly at Eastbourne in 1986 the day before the famous debate. He told the Liberals a lot of things they didn't want to hear but he failed to win anyone over.

    Davidson had the opportunity to say the difficult things because she is popular within the Party but took the easy way out sounding like a Sun editorial (I'm British by the way not a "Brit"). As she isn't even eligible to be the next Conservative leader, she missed an opportunity to advance a different direction - instead she chose the safe road of platitudes.




  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Never mind the sentiment, there aren't enough syllables in David Davis's name to fit!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    .
    Well no surprises that I managed to guess who the MP was before clicking the link. Kinder, gentler politics.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,182

    Cookie said:

    surbiton said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:


    None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?

    .
    I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight.
    On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.

    I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
    Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
    Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
    Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
    Well yes, that's a valid point and a question to which there is no simple answer - or certainly no universally applicable answer. But I think Catalonia as a whole is comfortably above the 'hyper-local' level.
    There would be likely to be issues along the Catalan border, though, where blocks of people end up on the wrong side of a boundary.
    These issues are common the world over, and often defy easy answers - we're pretty lucky in the UK to have so few of them.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    ydoethur said:

    Ruth Davidson is far too inexperienced to be offered to the country as a replacement Prime Minister. She hasn't yet actually held any ministerial role, or even been a bag carrier for a minister.

    She might very well make an excellent Leader of the Opposition for the Conservatives, as and when the time arises.

    Neither has Jeremy Corbyn, of course. Indeed, Davidson at least has experience of leading a political party even if it is a grouping within the larger overall party. Corbyn didn't even have that.
    Jeremy Corbyn is not being parachuted into the role of Prime Minister but seeking the public's backing to get the job. A party that is installing a politician in the role of Prime Minister has a responsibility to choose someone who has unquestionable experience.
    30 odd years as an MP watching those with "unquestionable experience" screw up maybe a much better learning experience..... After all, he's now managing to get the Tories to put his policies into force...
  • Danny565 said:

    Never mind the sentiment, there aren't enough syllables in David Davis's name to fit!
    Oh Da-a-vid Da-vis
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    surbiton said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    DavidL said:

    The self restraint of the crowds and protesters in Spain is remarkable and shows up the police in the most extreme way. I find it astonishing that this is going on right now in a core EU country and our politicians are wibbling about whether one buffoon should replace another. It is so embarrassingly parochial.

    Thankfully nothing as violent yet but this vaguely reminds me of Tiammen Square. In Europe. Shameful.

    These people are participating in an illegal act, in a country that has been a democracy for more than 40 years. I am horrified by the scenes of violence, but if you participate in an illegal act, don't be surprised when those whose job it is to enforce the law treat you less than favourably.

    Tianmen Square took place in a communist dictatorship. Spain is a liberal democracy with extensive decentralisation of power. They are not comparable at all.
    When did you get employed by the Russian Interior Ministry ?
    I believe in the rule of law. I'm not going to apologise for that.
    I do not believe that the rule of law is enforced by violently assaulting peaceful protesters who are seeking to exercise a democratic right and express their opinions. If you can't see the parallels with Tianmen then I suggest you need to rethink.

    Of course the Spanish State has or more accurately had the right to state that as a matter of law this referendum was unconstitutional and of no effect. They have no right at all to do what they have done today.
    The fact that you can see parallels with Tianmen suggests you are profoundly ignorant about those events, and the nature of the PRC and modern Spain. Catalans have had ample opportunities to express themselves in elections and peaceful protests since 1978; indeed, their regional government has had more power than any other, with the exception of the Basque Country. An illegal election that could lead to a unilateral declaration of independence and totally subvert the post-transition constitution is a very different beast.

    Would you be happy if Nicola Sturgeon called an unofficial referendum, got 95% for Yes on a low turnout, and then declared independence on that basis? If not, why not?
    Prior to today I would have totally opposed a UDI by Catalonia as ridiculous, stupid and indulgent.

    Today it seems close to morally permissable
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Danny565 said:

    Never mind the sentiment, there aren't enough syllables in David Davis's name to fit!
    Nor enough in the hall to get the chant going...

    https://twitter.com/mac123_m/status/914566161152532480
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    Spain gave the UK government some support at the time of the 2014 Scottish referendum so the UK government is not going to interfere now in the Catalonia referendum
    The UK Government supports the Spanish Riot Police beating up peaceful voters.

    The correct way of dealing with the "unconstitutional" referendum is to ignore the "results". Not beating up people and sending them to hospital. Then again, many in the Tory Party supported Franco.
    No but it is not interfering either, Spain also has a veto over any Brexit deal
    Yes, we have to tread on egg shells for our own good. I'm surprised that it's mainly the euro-sceptics who are ramping up the rhetoric and antagonizing the Spanish government. Personally I want Brexit to be a success, so we need to keep all our EU friends on side.
    Its called having principles.
    I have managed to find a shred of respect for Zac Goldsmith today.
  • Cookie said:

    surbiton said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    @Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.

    None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?

    .
    I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight.
    On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.

    I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
    Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
    Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
    Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
    I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
  • Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    surbiton said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:


    None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?

    .
    I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight.
    On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.

    I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
    Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
    Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
    Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
    Well yes, that's a valid point and a question to which there is no simple answer - or certainly no universally applicable answer. But I think Catalonia as a whole is comfortably above the 'hyper-local' level.
    There would be likely to be issues along the Catalan border, though, where blocks of people end up on the wrong side of a boundary.
    These issues are common the world over, and often defy easy answers - we're pretty lucky in the UK to have so few of them.

    The largest anti-independence blocs in Catalonia are in and around Barcelona and Tarragona, and in the city of Lleida.

  • Yorkcity said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
    Agreed Richard .I watched Selma the other day on Netflix.Not that long ago that some states in the US treated some of its citizens with such brutality.
    The US unfortunately does seem to be a particular exception as they do still indulge in beating their citizens once in a while for no other reason than wanting to make a peaceful protest of something.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Cookie said:

    surbiton said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    @Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.

    None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?

    .
    I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight.
    On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.

    I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
    Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
    Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
    Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
    I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
    Same principle applies though.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    glw said:

    Imagine your MP being as barmy as her. I suspect we are going to hear a lot more from this one over the next few years.
    The oddest thing is she is talking about some of her own constituents!
  • Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.

    It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    surbiton said:

    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?

    Does the Iraqi central government have the ability to beat up people in most of Kurdistan even if it wanted to?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Yorkcity said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
    Agreed Richard .I watched Selma the other day on Netflix.Not that long ago that some states in the US treated some of its citizens with such brutality.
    The US unfortunately does seem to be a particular exception as they do still indulge in beating their citizens once in a while for no other reason than wanting to make a peaceful protest of something.
    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
    Agreed Richard .I watched Selma the other day on Netflix.Not that long ago that some states in the US treated some of its citizens with such brutality.
    The US unfortunately does seem to be a particular exception as they do still indulge in beating their citizens once in a while for no other reason than wanting to make a peaceful protest of something.
    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
    There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.

    (On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
  • kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?

    Does the Iraqi central government have the ability to beat up people in most of Kurdistan even if it wanted to?
    I would imagine not!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I'm a Leaver not a remoaner, but I think mixing in the EU is a bit unfair at this time. Our government statement was more supportive than that of Guy Verhofstat for instance.
  • hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

  • Cookie said:

    surbiton said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    @Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.

    None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?

    .
    I don't think we have the concept of an illegal referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight.
    On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.

    I hold no pat support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
    Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
    Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
    Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
    I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
    Same principle applies though.
    Antrim and Down would vote to stay in the UK.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?

    Does the Iraqi central government have the ability to beat up people in most of Kurdistan even if it wanted to?
    I would imagine not!
    So, if they had, it would have been justified ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?

    Does the Iraqi central government have the ability to beat up people in most of Kurdistan even if it wanted to?
    I would imagine not!
    So, if they had, it would have been justified ?
    I was merely wondering if the less hamfisted approach was as a result of lack of ham with which to fist, rather than more sense.

    Though I recall a lot more international talk about not wanting that vote to go ahead, and do not recall seeing as much asking the Catalans not to do so.
  • surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?

    Does the Iraqi central government have the ability to beat up people in most of Kurdistan even if it wanted to?
    I would imagine not!
    So, if they had, it would have been justified ?
    Kurdistan should and could have gained independence after WW1.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
    Agreed Richard .I watched Selma the other day on Netflix.Not that long ago that some states in the US treated some of its citizens with such brutality.
    The US unfortunately does seem to be a particular exception as they do still indulge in beating their citizens once in a while for no other reason than wanting to make a peaceful protest of something.
    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
    There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.

    (On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Cookie said:

    surbiton said:

    Cookie said:

    kle4 said:

    @Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.

    None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?

    .
    I don't think we have the concept of an .. referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight.
    On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.

    I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
    Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
    Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
    Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
    I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
    What South Down will not vote for re-unification ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited October 2017
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
    Agreed Richard .I watched Selma the other day on Netflix.Not that long ago that some states in the US treated some of its citizens with such brutality.
    The US unfortunately does seem to be a particular exception as they do still indulge in beating their citizens once in a while for no other reason than wanting to make a peaceful protest of something.
    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
    There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.

    (On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
    He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?

    Does the Iraqi central government have the ability to beat up people in most of Kurdistan even if it wanted to?
    I would imagine not!
    So, if they had, it would have been justified ?
    Kurdistan should and could have gained independence after WW1.
    WTF are you talking about ? This is 2017 , not 1917. Two many train journeys in coaches with poor suspension.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.

    It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.

    The UK would have done the same as Spain if the secession/referendum was not agreed. The Scotland IndyRef in 2014 was agreed with Westminster in advance, so is not a comparable situation.

    The UK behaved in an even more brutal manner than Spain is doing today in 1916-22 in Ireland, in 1945-7 against the Zionists, and in the early 1920s against the Iraqi Kurds, and might use force again if the SNP persisted with IndyRef2 or UDI without the consent of Westminster. The UK/England has a long history of using brute force to put down secessionist revolts, particularly in Scotland and Ireland, the worst of all being the Harrying of the North in 1069-70.

    Yugoslavia and the USSR are other multinational European states that have used force to try to put down secessionist rebellions. Most European countries are not multi-ethnic states so the question of secession is unlikely to arise.
  • surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    kle4 said:

    surbiton said:

    Compare two unlawful referendums in a week - both not recognised by the Central government.

    One in Kurdistan [ Iraq ] and Catalonia [ Spain ].

    Guess, which government decided to beat up its own people ? Which one simply ignored it ?

    Does the Iraqi central government have the ability to beat up people in most of Kurdistan even if it wanted to?
    I would imagine not!
    So, if they had, it would have been justified ?
    Kurdistan should and could have gained independence after WW1.
    WTF are you talking about ? This is 2017 , not 1917. Two many train journeys in coaches with poor suspension.
    What he is saying is entirely right. Kurdistan should have been granted independence in 1919. It had more right than almost any area in the region. But the British and French stitched up the area instead with their usual ignorance and self interest. It is something that should be put right now.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kle4 said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I'm a Leaver not a remoaner, but I think mixing in the EU is a bit unfair at this time. Our government statement was more supportive than that of Guy Verhofstat for instance.
    No matter what the British government said it would be criticised from all angles, especially given the current foreign secretary.

    We may all be critical as pseudo-anonymous contributors on a blog, but the British government need to be somewhat more guarded in their public comments.

    I think that it’s wrong to send a mob in riot gear to beat up old ladies going to vote, but sadly the world of realpolitik required a more nuanced response.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    I was at Wembley today and I was not impressed with the Union Flag being hung upside down.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    daodao said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.

    It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.

    The UK would have done the same as Spain if the secession/referendum was not agreed. The Scotland IndyRef in 2014 was agreed with Westminster in advance, so is not a comparable situation.

    The UK behaved in an even more brutal manner than Spain is doing today in 1916-22 in Ireland, in 1945-7 against the Zionists, and in the early 1920s against the Iraqi Kurds, and might use force again if the SNP persisted with IndyRef2 or UDI without the consent of Westminster. The UK/England has a long history of using brute force to put down secessionist revolts, particularly in Scotland and Ireland, the worst of all being the Harrying of the North in 1069-70.

    Yugoslavia and the USSR are other multinational European states that have used force to try to put down secessionist rebellions. Most European countries are not multi-ethnic states so the question of secession is unlikely to arise.
    You don't think maybe things have changed since 1916-22 or gods forbid 1069-1070? Many things have changed since then, many fundamental things, so I do not think one can assume one way or the other.

    I think we would all hope had the SNP gone down the Catalan route the authorities would have ignored and discredited rather than use violence, but fortunately we did not need to find out then and hopefully will not in future.
  • hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

    Agreed. This issue has cut across the political and Brexit boundaries. Whether you agreed with the issue of Catalan independence or not, no one should be supporting the use of violence to stop people having their say. It is sad to see commentators from both sides of the Brexit argument who don't seem to get that basic principle. It is also reassuring (though actually not unexpected) to see how many people opposed to Brexit do still think Spain is behaving atrociously.

    Tonight we should be taking our lead from Guy Verhofstadt not our own Government.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

    It has everything to do with the EU! They told us and keep telling us in Brussels that ever closer union is the answer to all our problems. Well try telling that to the Catalan people tonight. Either the EU has to come out unequivocally in support of the Spanish government and their treacherous actions today, or it has to action against them for undermining democracy in such a shameful way today. For the EU to have any democratic legitimacy (and it has precious little of that) it has to be the latter. But that would be viewed as supporting Catalan independence, and fatally undermining a major country in the EU. In other words they can't win.

    For those remainers that viewed recent elections - the French election and the destruction of UKIP as overseeing the populist agenda, as I argued at the time it was merely a temporary pause. In fact the French elections saw all the historic mainstream French parties collapse, so I was amazed to see that as heralding the fading away of populism. As Germany showed last Sunday with Merkel fatally weakened who was the main rock on which the EU rested, and today's events, that hiatus was rather short indeed. The EU is doomed, its just a matter of when the whole rotten edifice comes collapsing down, not if.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited October 2017
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I'm a Leaver not a remoaner, but I think mixing in the EU is a bit unfair at this time. Our government statement was more supportive than that of Guy Verhofstat for instance.
    No matter what the British government said it would be criticised from all angles, especially given the current foreign secretary.

    We may all be critical as pseudo-anonymous contributors on a blog, but the British government need to be somewhat more guarded in their public comments.

    I think that it’s wrong to send a mob in riot gear to beat up old ladies going to vote, but sadly the world of realpolitik required a more nuanced response.
    Oh it is what I would have expected, and I am disappointed but not condemning it exactly. We're friends with far worse governments, or at least not condemning far worse governments, and so are the Spanish and so would the Catalans if they become independent.

    But as My Tyndall says, despite a few people, most seem to be treating this not as a reason to attack the EU.
  • hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

    It has everything to do with the EU! They told us and keep telling us in Brussels that ever closer union is the answer to all our problems. Well try telling that to the Catalan people tonight. Either the EU has to come out unequivocally in support of the Spanish government and their treacherous actions today, or it has to action against them for undermining democracy in such a shameful way today. For the EU to have any democratic legitimacy (and it has precious little of that) it has to be the latter. But that would be viewed as supporting Catalan independence, and fatally undermining a major country in the EU. In other words they can't win.

    For those remainers that viewed recent elections - the French election and the destruction of UKIP as overseeing the populist agenda, as I argued at the time it was merely a temporary pause. In fact the French elections saw all the historic mainstream French parties collapse, so I was amazed to see that as heralding the fading away of populism. As Germany showed last Sunday with Merkel fatally weakened who was the main rock on which the EU rested, and today's events, that hiatus was rather short indeed. The EU is doomed, its just a matter of when the whole rotten edifice comes collapsing down, not if.

    France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the UK and every other European country you can think of would be opposed to Catalan UDI whether or not the EU existed.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I deprecate the actions of Spain but it needs to be pointed out a) that the EU did not initiate nor organise the actions you describe, and b) if I recall correctly the responses from Belgium and Verhofstadt have been more condemnatory than those of the Foreign Office.

    It used to be stated by Eurosceptics that they loved Europe but not the EU, and were always careful to distinguish the member states individually from the EU and its organisations collectively. May I assume from your comment ("the Spanish government, and by extension the EU") that this stance has been abandoned?

    Oh, welcome back btw.
  • hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

    It has everything to do with the EU! They told us and keep telling us in Brussels that ever closer union is the answer to all our problems. Well try telling that to the Catalan people tonight. Either the EU has to come out unequivocally in support of the Spanish government and their treacherous actions today, or it has to action against them for undermining democracy in such a shameful way today. For the EU to have any democratic legitimacy (and it has precious little of that) it has to be the latter. But that would be viewed as supporting Catalan independence, and fatally undermining a major country in the EU. In other words they can't win.

    For those remainers that viewed recent elections - the French election and the destruction of UKIP as overseeing the populist agenda, as I argued at the time it was merely a temporary pause. In fact the French elections saw all the historic mainstream French parties collapse, so I was amazed to see that as heralding the fading away of populism. As Germany showed last Sunday with Merkel fatally weakened who was the main rock on which the EU rested, and today's events, that hiatus was rather short indeed. The EU is doomed, its just a matter of when the whole rotten edifice comes collapsing down, not if.

    France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the UK and every other European country you can think of would be opposed to Catalan UDI whether or not the EU existed.

    De facto UDI has already occurred with a number of territories world-wide, viz. Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Kosovo and Palestine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited October 2017

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
    There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.

    (On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
    He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
    Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience won’t know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.

    Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    daodao said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.

    It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.

    The UK would have done the same as Spain if the secession/referendum was not agreed. The Scotland IndyRef in 2014 was agreed with Westminster in advance, so is not a comparable situation.

    The UK behaved in an even more brutal manner than Spain is doing today in 1916-22 in Ireland, in 1945-7 against the Zionists, and in the early 1920s against the Iraqi Kurds, and might use force again if the SNP persisted with IndyRef2 or UDI without the consent of Westminster. The UK/England has a long history of using brute force to put down secessionist revolts, particularly in Scotland and Ireland, the worst of all being the Harrying of the North in 1069-70.

    Yugoslavia and the USSR are other multinational European states that have used force to try to put down secessionist rebellions. Most European countries are not multi-ethnic states so the question of secession is unlikely to arise.
    Probably the closest that our police have come to similar actions in recent years would have been the Battle of Orgreave or the death of Blair Peach.

    I cannot think of more recent examples.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
    There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.

    (On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
    He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
    Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience wont know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.

    Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
    Big fan of bill Maher. As you say, he gets it.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
    Agreed Richard .I watched Selma the other day on Netflix.Not that long ago that some states in the US treated some of its citizens with such brutality.
    The US unfortunately does seem to be a particular exception as they do still indulge in beating their citizens once in a while for no other reason than wanting to make a peaceful protest of something.
    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
    There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.

    (On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
    He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
    Yes, it really takes him away from what he's best at, and becomes regular lefty comic whinging - which I'm not opposed to, I really dislike Trump, but it's just not his strength.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    daodao said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.

    It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.

    The UK would have done the same as Spain if the secession/referendum was not agreed. The Scotland IndyRef in 2014 was agreed with Westminster in advance, so is not a comparable situation.

    The UK behaved in an even more brutal manner than Spain is doing today in 1916-22 in Ireland, in 1945-7 against the Zionists, and in the early 1920s against the Iraqi Kurds, and might use force again if the SNP persisted with IndyRef2 or UDI without the consent of Westminster. The UK/England has a long history of using brute force to put down secessionist revolts, particularly in Scotland and Ireland, the worst of all being the Harrying of the North in 1069-70.

    Yugoslavia and the USSR are other multinational European states that have used force to try to put down secessionist rebellions. Most European countries are not multi-ethnic states so the question of secession is unlikely to arise.
    Probably the closest that our police have come to similar actions in recent years would have been the Battle of Orgreave or the death of Blair Peach.

    I cannot think of more recent examples.
    You're not swayed that the Harrying of the North demonstrates our pattern of behaviour enough?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
    There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.

    (On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
    He needs to resist the into cnn.
    Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience wont know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.

    Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
    Not on the latest polls they aren't.

    PPP last week gave the Democrats an 11% lead over the GOP in next year's midterms for the House (more than double the biggest lead Labour has over the Tories at the moment) and Biden a 13% lead over Trump for 2020, Sanders an 11% lead and Warren a 6% lead.
    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2017/09/2018-shaping-up-big-for-democrats.html
  • kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I'm a Leaver not a remoaner, but I think mixing in the EU is a bit unfair at this time. Our government statement was more supportive than that of Guy Verhofstat for instance.
    No matter what the British government said it would be criticised from all angles, especially given the current foreign secretary.

    We may all be critical as pseudo-anonymous contributors on a blog, but the British government need to be somewhat more guarded in their public comments.

    I think that it’s wrong to send a mob in riot gear to beat up old ladies going to vote, but sadly the world of realpolitik required a more nuanced response.
    Oh it is what I would have expected, and I am disappointed but not condemning it exactly. We're friends with far worse governments, or at least not condemning far worse governments, and so are the Spanish and so would the Catalans if they become independent.

    But as My Tyndall says, despite a few people, most seem to be treating this not as a reason to attack the EU.
    I will always be 'your' Tyndall. :)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kle4 said:

    daodao said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.

    It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.

    The UK would have done the same as Spain if the secession/referendum was not agreed. The Scotland IndyRef in 2014 was agreed with Westminster in advance, so is not a comparable situation.

    The UK behaved in an even more brutal manner than Spain is doing today in 1916-22 in Ireland, in 1945-7 against the Zionists, and in the early 1920s against the Iraqi Kurds, and might use force again if the SNP persisted with IndyRef2 or UDI without the consent of Westminster. The UK/England has a long history of using brute force to put down secessionist revolts, particularly in Scotland and Ireland, the worst of all being the Harrying of the North in 1069-70.

    Yugoslavia and the USSR are other multinational European states that have used force to try to put down secessionist rebellions. Most European countries are not multi-ethnic states so the question of secession is unlikely to arise.
    Probably the closest that our police have come to similar actions in recent years would have been the Battle of Orgreave or the death of Blair Peach.

    I cannot think of more recent examples.
    You're not swayed that the Harrying of the North demonstrates our pattern of behaviour enough?
    Mrs Thatcher did reprise the Harrying of the North, now that you mention it :)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    kle4 said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I'm a Leaver not a remoaner, but I think mixing in the EU is a bit unfair at this time. Our government statement was more supportive than that of Guy Verhofstat for instance.
    No matter what the British government said it would be criticised from all angles, especially given the current foreign secretary.

    We may all be critical as pseudo-anonymous contributors on a blog, but the British government need to be somewhat more guarded in their public comments.

    I think that it’s wrong to send a mob in riot gear to beat up old ladies going to vote, but sadly the world of realpolitik required a more nuanced response.
    Oh it is what I would have expected, and I am disappointed but not condemning it exactly. We're friends with far worse governments, or at least not condemning far worse governments, and so are the Spanish and so would the Catalans if they become independent.

    But as My Tyndall says, despite a few people, most seem to be treating this not as a reason to attack the EU.
    I will always be 'your' Tyndall. :)
    A freudian slip, no doubt :)
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    viewcode said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I deprecate the actions of Spain but it needs to be pointed out a) that the EU did not initiate nor organise the actions you describe, and b) if I recall correctly the responses from Belgium and Verhofstadt have been more condemnatory than those of the Foreign Office.

    It used to be stated by Eurosceptics that they loved Europe but not the EU, and were always careful to distinguish the member states individually from the EU and its organisations collectively. May I assume from your comment ("the Spanish government, and by extension the EU") that this stance has been abandoned?

    Oh, welcome back btw.
    I support the Catalan people and all Spanish people. What I cannot stand is the actions of the Spanish government today. When the going gets tough throughout history, it always comes down to the government against the people. And what is key is the side the military and / or the police take in determining who wins, the people or the government. One of the boasts of the EU was that there would never be a war on its soil and that it would guarantee peace. Well I wouldn't be so sure after tonight if Puigdemont declares UDI in the coming days. Would you?
  • daodao said:

    Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.

    I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.

    It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.

    The UK would have done the same as Spain if the secession/referendum was not agreed. The Scotland IndyRef in 2014 was agreed with Westminster in advance, so is not a comparable situation. .
    So why can't Madrid agree to a Catalan Indyref in advance? Are they afraid of losing?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
    He needs to resist the into cnn.
    Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience wont know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.

    Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
    Not on the latest polls they aren't.

    PPP last week gave the Democrats an 11% lead over the GOP in next year's midterms for the House (more than double the biggest lead Labour has over the Tories at the moment) and Biden a 13% lead over Trump for 2020, Sanders an 11% lead and Warren a 6% lead.
    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2017/09/2018-shaping-up-big-for-democrats.html
    You’re reading far too much into polling before the campaign starts. If the Democrats run the mid terms talking about transgendered bathrooms and Russian fake news, they’ll lose again. And won’t understand why. Again.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    [snip]

    In "Electric Dreams" on Channel 4 this second, Barry from Auf Wiedersehn Pet is playing a train supervisor and caught a South West train from Woking to Dorchester. Thought you'd like to know.
  • Call for General Strike in Catalonia on Tuesday.

    I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium

    I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/


    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

    It has everything to do with the EU! They told us and keep telling us in Brussels that ever closer union is the answer to all our problems. Well try telling that to the Catalan people tonight. Either the EU has to come out unequivocally in support of the Spanish government and their treacherous actions today, or it has to action against them for undermining democracy in such a shameful way today. For the EU to have any democratic legitimacy (and it has precious little of that) it has to be the latter. But that would be viewed as supporting Catalan independence, and fatally undermining a major country in the EU. In other words they can't win.

    For those remainers that viewed recent elections - the French election and the destruction of UKIP as overseeing the populist agenda, as I argued at the time it was merely a temporary pause. In fact the French elections saw all the historic mainstream French parties collapse, so I was amazed to see that as heralding the fading away of populism. As Germany showed last Sunday with Merkel fatally weakened who was the main rock on which the EU rested, and today's events, that hiatus was rather short indeed. The EU is doomed, its just a matter of when the whole rotten edifice comes collapsing down, not if.

    France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the UK and every other European country you can think of would be opposed to Catalan UDI whether or not the EU existed.

    De facto UDI has already occurred with a number of territories world-wide, viz. Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Kosovo and Palestine.
    Palestine ? With a wall built in their own country [ not on the border ] and farm land expropriated and illegal settlements created.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited October 2017
    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/



    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting themt say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

    It has everything to do with the EU! They told us and keep telling us in Brussels that ever closer union is the answer to all our problems. Well try telling that to the Catalan people tonight. Either the EU has to come out unequivocally in support of the Spanish government and their treacherous actions today, or it has to action against them for undermining democracy in such a shameful way today.

    For those remainers that viewed recent elections - the French election and the destruction of UKIP as overseeing the populist agenda, as I argued at the time it was merely a temporary pause. In fact the French elections saw all the historic mainstream French parties collapse, so I was amazed to see that as heralding the fading away of populism. As Germany showed last Sunday with Merkel fatally weakened who was the main rock on which the EU rested, and today's events, that hiatus was rather short indeed. The EU is doomed, its just a matter of when the whole rotten edifice comes collapsing down, not if.
    This kind of superficial prediction of the collapse of the EU does the reputation of Leavers and Brexit no favours at all. Most people here are at least capable of recognising the complexity of the situation, and that no parties in the drama are spotless in moral terms.
  • viewcode said:

    [snip]

    In "Electric Dreams" on Channel 4 this second, Barry from Auf Wiedersehn Pet is playing a train supervisor and caught a South West train from Woking to Dorchester. Thought you'd like to know.
    Thanks
    I passed through Dorchester South on the main London to Weymouth route, but haven't passed through Dorchester West on the Yeovil to Weymouth line.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    hunchman said:

    viewcode said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    I deprecate the actions of Spain but it needs to be pointed out a) that the EU did not initiate nor organise the actions you describe, and b) if I recall correctly the responses from Belgium and Verhofstadt have been more condemnatory than those of the Foreign Office.

    It used to be stated by Eurosceptics that they loved Europe but not the EU, and were always careful to distinguish the member states individually from the EU and its organisations collectively. May I assume from your comment ("the Spanish government, and by extension the EU") that this stance has been abandoned?

    Oh, welcome back btw.
    I support the Catalan people and all Spanish people. What I cannot stand is the actions of the Spanish government today. When the going gets tough throughout history, it always comes down to the government against the people. And what is key is the side the military and / or the police take in determining who wins, the people or the government. One of the boasts of the EU was that there would never be a war on its soil and that it would guarantee peace. Well I wouldn't be so sure after tonight if Puigdemont declares UDI in the coming days. Would you?
    No, but I was distinguishing the actions of the EU from the actions of Spain.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    hunchman said:

    hunchman said:

    Very fine words by Martin Armstrong as always in the post below:

    https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/europes-current-economy/spain-reveals-eu-does-not-stand-for-human-rights-making-revolution-inevitable/

    Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.

    Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!

    It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.

    It has everything to do with the EU! The EU is doomed, its just a matter of when the whole rotten edifice comes collapsing down, not if.

    France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the UK and every other European country you can think of would be opposed to Catalan UDI whether or not the EU existed.

    Oh yes quite understandably with France having Breton separatists in its parliament for the first time, Italy - well the Northern League, Venetto, Belgium with Flanders and Wallonia, ourselves with Scotland. But its historically inevitable that Europe will return to a patchwork of city states when there are so many grievances as currently is the case. Governments will be pig headed and stand in the way of the trend. as they usually do. What governments never address is the root causes of why the Catalans want independence. Madrid is being so pig headed in not wanting a Mediterranean railway that would run up from Valencia up to Barcelona and the French border - it would make great economic sense so trade in the Mediterranean could use it and avoid going through the straits of Gibraltar and to Rotterdam. But no Madrid doesn't want it because it would make Barcelona too powerful! And Catalonia has been paying more than its share into the Madrid coffers for years, whilst getting less back. If Madrid had addressed those root economic causes then we wouldn't have the mess we have today. But do you really expect that level of enlightenment from an out of touch government?!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,706
    edited October 2017
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:
    Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
    He needs to resist the into cnn.
    Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience wont know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.

    Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
    Not on the latest polls they aren't.

    PPP last week gave the Democrats an 11% lead over the GOP in next year's midterms for the House (more than double the biggest lead Labour has over the Tories at the moment) and Biden a 13% lead over Trump for 2020, Sanders an 11% lead and Warren a 6% lead.
    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2017/09/2018-shaping-up-big-for-democrats.html
    You’re reading far too much into polling before the campaign starts. If the Democrats run the mid terms talking about transgendered bathrooms and Russian fake news, they’ll lose again. And won’t understand why. Again.
    I am sorry but if Corbyn is supposed to be all set to measure the drapes in No 10 in the UK on a rather pathetic 1-5% lead over the Tories by comparison to the Democrats roughly 11%+ lead over Trump and the GOP I think we can say the Democrats are pretty set fair.

    If the Democrats win it will be anti austerity, anti rich and anti globalisation, the same as Corbyn (who is just as pro transgender bathrooms as they are).
  • Call for General Strike in Catalonia on Tuesday.

    I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium

    I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct

    Hopefully not on Ryanair or monarch!
This discussion has been closed.