Is any remoaner on here tonight prepared to stand up and support the actions of Mr Rajoy and the Spanish government, and by extension the EU for so disgracefully supporting them today? If anybody needed any proof as to how undemocratic the EU is, we got it in spades today, just as many of us Internationalist Brexiteers were arguing before the 23rd June last year.
Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!
It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.
It has everything to do with the EU! They told us and keep telling us in Brussels that ever closer union is the answer to all our problems. Well try telling that to the Catalan people tonight. Either the EU has to come out unequivocally in support of the Spanish government and their treacherous actions today, or it has to action against them for undermining democracy in such a shameful way today. For the EU to have any democratic legitimacy (and it has precious little of that) it has to be the latter. But that would be viewed as supporting Catalan independence, and fatally undermining a major country in the EU. In other words they can't win.
For th
France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the UK and every other European country you can think of would be opposed to Catalan UDI whether or not the EU existed.
De facto UDI has already occurred with a number of territories world-wide, viz. Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Kosovo and Palestine.
Yes, and not well recognised are they, most of them? Even ones where it would seem to make sense like Somaliland.
Throughout history, the perennial battle when things get tough for governments is governments against the wishes and will of the people. I'm proud to be able to support the Catalan people in their struggle for independence. As Rafa Nadal might say this evening, Vamos Catalunya!
It has absolutely nothing to do with the EU. Countries across the globe are opposed to UDI, for very obvious reasons. It's not as if states outside the EU have been kicking up a fuss. The entire world has been almost completely silent.
It has everything to do with the EU! They told us and keep telling us in Brussels that ever closer union is the answer to all our problems. Well try telling that to the Catalan people tonight. Either the EU has to come out unequivocally in support of the Spanish government and their treacherous actions today, or it has to action against them for undermining democracy in such a shameful way today. For the EU to have any democratic legitimacy (and it has precious little of that) it has to be the latter. But that would be viewed as supporting Catalan independence, and fatally undermining a major country in the EU. In other words they can't win.
For those remainers that viewed recent elections - the French election and the destruction of UKIP as overseeing the populist agenda, as I argued at the time it was merely a temporary pause. In fact the French elections saw all the historic mainstream French parties collapse, so I was amazed to see that as heralding the fading away of populism. As Germany showed last Sunday with Merkel fatally weakened who was the main rock on which the EU rested, and today's events, that hiatus was rather short indeed. The EU is doomed, its just a matter of when the whole rotten edifice comes collapsing down, not if.
France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, the UK and every other European country you can think of would be opposed to Catalan UDI whether or not the EU existed.
De facto UDI has already occurred with a number of territories world-wide, viz. Transnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Kosovo and Palestine.
Palestine ? With a wall built in their own country [ not on the border ] and farm land expropriated and illegal settlements created.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or iew.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an .. referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don't know what support independence has in Catalonia, but if there is a significant majority [define signiifcant] for independence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
What South Down will not vote for re-unification ?
Hard to say. If the inhabitants of South Down, South Armagh and the West Bank of the Foyle voted to join the Republic, and this was accepted, it would kill any chance of a majority for unification in the rest of Northern Ireland.
Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.
(On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience won’t know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.
Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
It was the fault of everyone except Hillary Clinton.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or Scotland or Westmorland or Tower Hamlets was holding an illegal referendum on secession using public funds ? A referendum incidentally where the regional government holding it had explicitly said a Yes vote would trigger an immediate UDI. The whole tenor of this discussion is we'd not deploy police or use any sort of force to prevent it happening. That seems far from obvious to me. And '80s use of aggressive police tactics to enforce the law ( and then some ) during the miners strike seem a perfectly valid comparison Inn my view.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an .. referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold no particular candle for either Spain or Catalonia. But it seems to me that if region a of state B doesn't want to be part of state B, there 'right' outcome is that it no longer should be part of state B. I don'tnce then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
What South Down will not vote for re-unification ?
Today is the kind of day that reminds us there's a huge difference between an old democracy like ours and a young one like Spain's. We are immensely lucky, but should remember most countries are not like the UK.
I think to be fair that many EU countries are like ours. I really can't envisage most of the other EU countries acting in the way Spain did today. They may well quite rightly have ruled the referendum was unconstitutional and have ignored the result but sending in the civil guard to beat people up is a long way from how I think most 1st world countries would react.
It just would not have happened in most EU countries. Referenda are either illegal or regions do not have the power Catalonia does. What really aggravates the situation in Spain is that the PP has its roots in the Una Grande y Libre Spanish nationalism of Franco. Today would not have happened if PSOE had been in control.
The UK would have done the same as Spain if the secession/referendum was not agreed. The Scotland IndyRef in 2014 was agreed with Westminster in advance, so is not a comparable situation. .
So why can't Madrid agree to a Catalan Indyref in advance? Are they afraid of losing?
That is a complex question. The Spanish Government - specifically the PP are falling back on the claim that it is against the constitution but as others have pointed out it would not be beyond the wit of the Spanish Parliament to start the process of changing the constitution to allow a referendum.
But the PP have history on this. They also used the same argument to block more devolution for Catalonia through the revision of the Statute of Autonomy in 2005. The revisions, drawn up by the Catalan Government had the agreement of all the parties in the Spanish Parliament with the exception of the PP who used the constitutional court to block the changes.
So the real stumbling block is the PP - who are in effect the successors to Franco's fascists - and who will do anything to stop any further autonomy for any of Spain's regions.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or iew.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an .. referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold dependence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
What South Down will not vote for re-unification ?
Hard to say. If the inhabitants of South Down, South Armagh and the West Bank of the Foyle voted to join the Republic, and this was accepted, it would kill any chance of a majority for unification in the rest of Northern Ireland.
Foxinsox was going by a county-by-county basis. If so, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh would be the counties with Nationalist majorities.
Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.
(On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience won’t know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothi
It was the fault of everyone except Hillary Clinton.
The BBC summary of who she blames in her book does conclude with 'Hilary Clinton', although having so comprehensively blamed so many other factors, without reading it myself I cannot say how genuine her acknowledgement comes across. After all, it is an easy thing to say that something is our fault, but so often we include so many caveats that it does the lie to the admission.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience wont know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.
Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
You’re reading far too much into polling before the campaign starts. If the Democrats run the mid terms talking about transgendered bathrooms and Russian fake news, they’ll lose again. And won’t understand why. Again.
I am sorry but if Corbyn is supposed to be all set to measure the drapes in No 10 in the UK on a rather pathetic 1-5% lead over the Tories by comparison to the Democrats roughly 11%+ lead over Trump and the GOP I think we can say the Democrats are pretty set fair.
If the Democrats win it will be anti austerity, anti rich and anti globalisation, the same as Corbyn (who is just as pro transgender bathrooms as they are).
My experience of betting in the past year or so has told me not to trust polls any more! If Trump can get his business offshore repatriation fund through and start his infrastructure building, the GOP will be home and dry for the next three or four years irrespective of what the Dems do.
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
Hopefully not on Ryanair or monarch!
No - In all my Worldwide travels I have not used either. Flying BA to Term 5
Only the best for Big G
Always remember 'Maggie' putting her handkerchief over the model tail fin of a BA plane when they announced the replacement of the red white and blue tailfin. Classic Maggie
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Indeed - after surrendering, the Republicans were reportedly spat at in the street by the Dublin populace, but the moment they started getting executed, they became national heroes.
This kind of superficial prediction of the collapse of the EU does the reputation of Leavers and Brexit no favours at all. Most people here are at least capable of recognising the complexity of the situation, and that no parties in the drama are spotless in moral terms.
Its no superficial prediction with a global sovereign debt crisis around the corner. We've seen some amazing things happen over the past few years that people would have laughed at anybody for predicting them. In turbulent times like now, things that seem impossible become possible. Everyone would have laughed at the thought of Jeremy Corbyn being extremely close to power just a couple of years ago. Start to think the unthinkable. History shows all too well that empires that seemed to be on very stable foundations have suddenly collapsed from seemingly impregnable positions. The EU will be no different. In the end, everything moves and everything changes. Nobody has built an empire or a monetary system that has been good for all time. Human nature is far too volatile and prone to mood swings for that to happen. Life is changing, embrace change, get used to it. The EU is the old order. It will be ushered off the stage, and I think sooner rather than later.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or iew.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an .. referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold dependence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
What South Down will not vote for re-unification ?
Hard to say. If the inhabitants of South Down, South Armagh and the West Bank of the Foyle voted to join the Republic, and this was accepted, it would kill any chance of a majority for unification in the rest of Northern Ireland.
Foxinsox was going by a county-by-county basis. If so, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh would be the counties with Nationalist majorities.
Not necessarily majorities that would vote to join the Republic, though.
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
Hopefully not on Ryanair or monarch!
No - In all my Worldwide travels I have not used either. Flying BA to Term 5
Only the best for Big G
Always remember 'Maggie' putting her handkerchief over the model tail fin of a BA plane when they announced the replacement of the red white and blue tailfin. Classic Maggie
Some airlines paint an airliner in an old paint scheme from time to time. I wish BA would do one of their 787s in the old BOAC colours.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
@Kle4 But the question remains unanswered. What would the British government do if London or iew.
None of which is justify exactly what the Madrid government has done. I'm just asking is it really so obvious we'd handle the same situation any better ?
.
I don't think we have the concept of an .. referendum I think, legally, any old Tom, Dick or Harry can hold a referendum if they want to and can manage the logistics etc. I think the UK's position on an 'unofficial' referendum would be to say that as an unofficial referendum it holds no weight. On a different scale, Yarm recently held a referendum on whether to leave Stockton-on-Tees. The referendum was a resounding 'yes'. Nothing happened as a result.
I hold dependence then I don't see any reason why SPain or anyone else should stand in its way. A state should only exist with the consent of its people.
Very well put. What if the Nationalists in Northern Ireland organise a "referendum" [ unofficial , of course ] on Irish re-unification ? Will the police force beat up the voters violently ?
Northern Ireland is a slightly different issue, of course. It is not staying British because London is clinging on to it; most people on this side of the water don't mind one way or the other. It is staying British because there is a unionist majority in NI. I don't expect it to stay British if and when that ceases to be the case.
Though one wonders what the limit of localism should be. What if Antrim or Down voted to join RoI rather than remain with the 4 counties?
I don't think Antrim or Down would vote to join the RoI! The four counties with Nationalist majorities are Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh.
What South Down will not vote for re-unification ?
Hard to say. If the inhabitants of South Down, South Armagh and the West Bank of the Foyle voted to join the Republic, and this was accepted, it would kill any chance of a majority for unification in the rest of Northern Ireland.
Foxinsox was going by a county-by-county basis. If so, Fermanagh, Tyrone, Derry and Armagh would be the counties with Nationalist majorities.
Not necessarily majorities that would vote to join the Republic, though.
Perhaps, but they certainly don't have Unionist majorities.
Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
There was a very good piece from John Oliver on that about 3 years ago - towns of 7000 with armoured personal carriers, police in full camo and body armour, guns up with fingers on the trigger at all times during unrest, massively increased SWAT units and raids for minor matters. I'd be genuinely scared of police in the USA.
(On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience won’t know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothi
It was the fault of everyone except Hillary Clinton.
The BBC summary of who she blames in her book does conclude with 'Hilary Clinton', although having so comprehensively blamed so many other factors, without reading it myself I cannot say how genuine her acknowledgement comes across. After all, it is an easy thing to say that something is our fault, but so often we include so many caveats that it does the lie to the admission.
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
Hopefully not on Ryanair or monarch!
No - In all my Worldwide travels I have not used either. Flying BA to Term 5
Only the best for Big G
Always remember 'Maggie' putting her handkerchief over the model tail fin of a BA plane when they announced the replacement of the red white and blue tailfin. Classic Maggie
Some airlines paint an airliner in an old paint scheme from time to time. I wish BA would do one of their 787s in the old BOAC colours.
Or better still, Imperial Airways (post Brexit)
At Hatton Cross tube station (opened 1975), you can still see blue BOAC style "Speedbird" symbols on the walls.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Totally agreed SeanT. A complete gift for Puigdemont and the declaration of UDI in the coming days. All moral authority that Madrid had before today has evaporated. A truly seismic day which doesn't just have implications for Spain but that of separatist movements around Europe as a reaction to the totally failed model of a one size fits all approach that is the hallmark of the EU. After all everything is interlinked. This will embolden separatists right the way around Europe. These matters are meant to be decided at the ballot box, not by cackhanded authoritarianism from a woefully out of touch government.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
It has been quite amazing seeing who in British politics and media have sided with the Spanish Government beating it's citizens or those wishing to exercise the Universal Right to Self Determination.
You’re reading far too much into polling before the campaign starts. If the Democrats run the mid terms talking about transgendered bathrooms and Russian fake news, they’ll lose again. And won’t understand why. Again.
I am sorry but if Corbyn is stransgender bathrooms as they are).
My experience of betting in the past year or so has told me not to trust polls any more! If Trump can get his business offshore repatriation fund through and start his infrastructure building, the GOP will be home and dry for the next three or four years irrespective of what the Dems do.
No, the Democrats are rising on exactly the same anti globalisation, anti corporation, anti rich agenda as Corbyn is. Voters in the UK and USA firstly lashed out at the establishment by voting for Brexit and Trump in protest at uncontrolled immigration, now they are voting for Corbyn and Sanders/Warren in protest at what they see as uncontrolled capitalism. Remember in 2020 the Democrats just need to win Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and hold the Hillary states to win the presidency (all those 3 states voted for every Democratic candidate since 1988 pre 2016).
Now it may be that both Corbyn and Sanders/Warren lose and say Boris and Trump manage to keep up their own populist narrative but if Corbyn wins over here I would bet Sanders or Warren will almost certainly win in the USA too just as Attlee came in in the same period as FDR and Truman and Reagan was elected a year after Thatcher and Trump won 6 months after Brexit
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
Hopefully not on Ryanair or monarch!
No - In all my Worldwide travels I have not used either. Flying BA to Term 5
Only the best for Big G
Always remember 'Maggie' putting her handkerchief over the model tail fin of a BA plane when they announced the replacement of the red white and blue tailfin. Classic Maggie
Some airlines paint an airliner in an old paint scheme from time to time. I wish BA would do one of their 787s in the old BOAC colours.
Or better still, Imperial Airways (post Brexit)
At Hatton Cross tube station (opened 1975), you can still see blue BOAC style "Speedbird" symbols on the walls.
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
Hopefully not on Ryanair or monarch!
No - In all my Worldwide travels I have not used either. Flying BA to Term 5
Only the best for Big G
Always remember 'Maggie' putting her handkerchief over the model tail fin of a BA plane when they announced the replacement of the red white and blue tailfin. Classic Maggie
Some airlines paint an airliner in an old paint scheme from time to time. I wish BA would do one of their 787s in the old BOAC colours.
Or better still, Imperial Airways (post Brexit)
At Hatton Cross tube station (opened 1975), you can still see blue BOAC style "Speedbird" symbols on the walls.
Never noticed that before, very cool. BA still use “Speedbird” as their radio callsign.
The VC10 in BOAC garb was the most beautiful airliner. Even in RAF colours, I would always smile when I looked up from my college to see that graceful shape sail through the sky!
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
It has been quite amazing seeing who in British politics and media have sided with the Spanish Government beating it's citizens or those wishing to exercise the Universal Right to Self Determination.
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
It has been quite amazing seeing who in British politics and media have sided with the Spanish Government beating it's citizens or those wishing to exercise the Universal Right to Self Determination.
They landed at Goose Bay, which is about 500 miles from civilisation any way you look! Pax stayed on the dead plane for about 8 hours until a relief aircraft showed up, as there’s only a few dozen hotel rooms in the town.
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
Not sure the page is up to date though.
Why don’t we recognise Somaliland? They’d be forever grateful, and I’m not sure Somalia will start functioning any time soon.
Perhaps Rajoy should send in his stormtroopers to the Catalan parliament to stop the illegal vote on independence in a few days. After all it's been such a successful strategy today
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
Not sure the page is up to date though.
Artsakh (Nagorno Karabakh) is recognised by South Ossetia, Transnistria and Abkhazia Transnistria is recognised by South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Artsakh.
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
Not sure the page is up to date though.
Why don’t we recognise Somaliland? They’d be forever grateful, and I’m not sure Somalia will start functioning any time soon.
I don't know, apparently it is a functioning state with mostly free elections and everything, or so claims wiki (although some of the links seem pretty old). I guess everyone really really wants to see the rest of Somalia become functioning again before there's talk of parts going their own way.
What's so funny about this thread is how many Remainers are taking the side of Madrid as a proxy fight for the Brexit debate, and then hurling accusations of xenophobia and racism at the Leavers backing Catalonia.
The comment from one ultra-Remain poster on preserving the integrity of nation state was a real peach.
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
I can't tell whether you mean Catalonia is surprisingly big, or surprisingly small. Using the traditional size of Wales metric, Catalonia is approximately the size of Wales plus NI, and Spain is about twice the size of the UK.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
It has been quite amazing seeing who in British politics and media have sided with the Spanish Government beating it's citizens or those wishing to exercise the Universal Right to Self Determination.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
Yes, the militarisation of the police in the US is very disturbing. Armoured tanks with 0.50 machine guns are really not supposed to be used for civilian crowd control.
(On a side note, I was watching an old police drama from the mid 2000, Cold Case, and i will praise it to high heaven as its the first american cop procedural I've seen where the characters put their guns into locked cupboards before they enter their office, rather than most where apparently cops just sit around with guns at their hips in open plan offices the public can just walk into, and frequently grab a gun from an officer)
Yes, I remember that from John Oliver. He’s very good at drawing attention to issues such as this, where the mainstream media doesn’t go but the issue has a massive effect on a number of people. Ditto his report on civil forfeiture.
He needs to resist the urge to do trump every single week. What makes his show good is the amusing take on important stories that don’t receive a lot of coverage. If I want to listen to trump bashing I can tune into cnn.
Absolutely. The US late night comedians are all crying wolf when it comes to Trump, their audience won’t know when the big story hits because it’ll be just another anti-Trump diatribe. They even all criticised him for working with the Democrats on the budget a couple of weeks ago, he can literally do nothing right in their eyes.
Hillarious that they all interviewed Hillary a couple of weeks ago, she’s written a book called “What Happened” in which she just doubles down on the old reasons for her losing - voter suppression, racism, media, fake news, Russians. Mainly Russians. The way the Democrats are going they’ve learned precisely nothing, and are setting themselves up to lose the mid-terms and probably allowing Trump another term as President in 2020. It’s hard not to laugh. The only TV host that gets it is Bill Maher, the Democrats need to start listening to him a lot more.
It was the fault of everyone except Hillary Clinton.
I find her tin ear simply astonishing.
Does she listen to anyone who tells her hard truths?
If the Generalidad declares independence, Article 155 of the Spanish Constitution comes into play: 1. If a Self governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the above mentioned general interest. 2. With a view to implementing the measures provided for in the foregoing paragraph, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Self governing Communities.
Perhaps Rajoy should send in his stormtroopers to the Catalan parliament to stop the illegal vote on independence in a few days. After all it's been such a successful strategy today
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
I can't tell whether you mean Catalonia is surprisingly big, or surprisingly small. Using the traditional size of Wales metric, Catalonia is approximately the size of Wales plus NI, and Spain is about twice the size of the UK.
I did not realise it was so large but my only time in Barcelona was for the magical win of Man Utd in the European cup and twice with cruise ships. Indeed my flight home on 22nd Oct concludes our med cruise commencing 10 days earlier from Rome
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
It has been quite amazing seeing who in British politics and media have sided with the Spanish Government beating it's citizens or those wishing to exercise the Universal Right to Self Determination.
The Tories need to do far more than replace May with a blonde old Etonian buffoon. Johnson is the most hated Leaver politician and is likely to galvanise Remainers to vote Labour next time.
The Tories need to re-invent the entire party and turn their back on their Thatcherite past. Austerity needs to come to an end, tuition fees abolished, and a new Conservative party needs to be born.
Then the Tories will save themselves-and save Labour from the destruction that a Corbyn government would inflict upon the Labour Party.
I didn't realise that Catalonia is the size of Belgium
I know it is selfish but hope it calms down - flying out of Barcelona on the 22nd Oct
I can't tell whether you mean Catalonia is surprisingly big, or surprisingly small. Using the traditional size of Wales metric, Catalonia is approximately the size of Wales plus NI, and Spain is about twice the size of the UK.
In population terms Catalonia has a population of 7.5 million, 2 million more than Scotland and 4 million more than Wales.
Spain has a population of 46 million, 19 million fewer than the UK's 65 million
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
What's so funny about this thread is how many Remainers are taking the side of Madrid as a proxy fight for the Brexit debate, and then hurling accusations of xenophobia and racism at the Leavers backing Catalonia.
The comment from one ultra-Remain poster on preserving the integrity of nation state was a real peach.
I really don't care about the issue, but I'm certainly enjoying the spectacle of the attempt to Brexitise it.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
The Constitution’s stipulations on nationality are interesting:
1. Spanish nationality shall be acquired, retained and lost in accordance with the provisions of the law. 2. No person of Spanish birth may be deprived of his or her nationality. 3. The State may negotiate dual nationality treaties with Latin-American countries or with those which have had or which have special links with Spain. In these countries Spaniards may become naturalized without losing their nationality of origin, even if those countries do not grant a reciprocal right to their own citizens.
It’s as if we only allowed dual nationality for Commonwealth countries (or perhaps the Commonwealth Realms).
The Tories need to do far more than replace May with a blonde old Etonian buffoon. Johnson is the most hated Leaver politician and is likely to galvanise Remainers to vote Labour next time.
The Tories need to re-invent the entire party and turn their back on their Thatcherite past. Austerity needs to come to an end, tuition fees abolished, and a new Conservative party needs to be born.
Then the Tories will save themselves-and save Labour from the destruction that a Corbyn government would inflict upon the Labour Party.
As I said before if the Tories win next time and narrowly beat Corbyn they will probably lose by a landslide to a non Corbyn leader the election after and be out for a decade or more, if Corbyn wins next time especially with SNP or LD support the Tories may be back after just a term. If the Tories beat Corbyn it will be for the country's benefit rather than their own
Abolishing tuition fees would also be political suicide for the Tories requiring raising taxes on non graduate skilled working class C2 voters (who voted Tory in June) to pay off the fees of young Corbyn voting middle class students and graduates. Reduce the interest and threshold and link to the earnings premium but don't abolish. As for austerity that is being eased back on with public sector pay rises now coming through
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Very muted initial reaction on the markets to events in Catalonia today. EURUSD opened 15 pips lower currently at 1.1803. I thought there was one last high in EURUSD above 1.2079 seen earlier in September, until the great wheel turns. Provided we stay above 1.1662 then that option is still on the table into around mid-October, but the indications from what I'm seeing are that mid-October is going to be a big turning point.
Its taken capital a long while to sniff out the fact that its governments around the world that are in trouble, with the consequent huge shift in movable private assets - ie stocks, gold and until recently cryptocurrencies.
The VC10 in BOAC garb was the most beautiful airliner. Even in RAF colours, I would always smile when I looked up from my college to see that graceful shape sail through the sky!
I see your VC10 in BOAC livery (good call, btw) and raise you a BOAC Concorde. It never flew (the dates are wrong) and it wouldn't have worked because of heat absorption, but day-yum, it would have been nice to see it.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Does she listen to anyone who tells her hard truths?
I've not read the book itself, nor do I intend to do so, but I've read several long reviews of it. From the sounds of them Clinton doesn't feel she did much wrong.
That said I did wonder if part of the reason she shoulders little to none of the blame is to keep her options open for another run. If she wrote a book saying "I screwed up and I am a horrible candidate" that would end any possibility of running again, so she almost has to write an "I was robbed" book to leave that option open.
The videos on Twitter of Spanish police brutality are endless. They will not be forgotten.
A terrible, terrible mistake. Possibly up there with Great Britain's handling of the Easter Rising.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of the catalan referendum, not modern democratic nation should be treating its citizens to a beating. There has to be a reckoning for the Spanish authorities over this, and the EU needs to censure them.
It has been quite amazing seeing who in British politics and media have sided with the Spanish Government beating it's citizens or those wishing to exercise the Universal Right to Self Determination.
Yep. If Murdo provides a shred of evidence that there might be a decent human being lurking within, I'm packing in this politics lark.
Don't worry, Duncan Hothersall has had a real go at trying to get the worst possible take whilst trying to position himself as a victim so some things are still normal.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Does she listen to anyone who tells her hard truths?
I've not read the book itself, nor do I intend to do so, but I've read several long reviews of it. From the sounds of them Clinton doesn't feel she did much wrong.
That said I did wonder if part of the reason she shoulders little to none of the blame is to keep her options open for another run. If she wrote a book saying "I screwed up and I am a horrible candidate" that would end any possibility of running again, so she almost has to write an "I was robbed" book to leave that option open.
I think that answers my question.
She can divest herself of any chance of running as Presidential candidate ever again, if she has not done so already.
But, even if she didn't, at least some level of contrition or analysis would be expected. Voters wouldn't like dismissive arrogance.
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
Not sure the page is up to date though.
Who doesn't recognise China?
Various Central American republics and Pacific islands, in exchange for aid. Panama recognised the PRC earlier this year, which was a big loss for Taiwan.
What's so funny about this thread is how many Remainers are taking the side of Madrid as a proxy fight for the Brexit debate, and then hurling accusations of xenophobia and racism at the Leavers backing Catalonia.
The comment from one ultra-Remain poster on preserving the integrity of nation state was a real peach.
I did not (and do not) take the side of Spain in this matter, as I pointed out below.
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
Not sure the page is up to date though.
Who doesn't recognise China?
Those that recognise Taiwan as China, I presume.
Edit: Looks like a bunch of Pacific and Caribbean Island nations for the most part, and a smattering in south america.
Clinton isn't running again. Beat by trump, nearly beat by Saunders and physically the campaign took huge amounts out of her, and will obviously be even older next time around.
I see in wikipedia there are six UN members not recognised by at least one other UN state (South Korea, North Korea, Cyprus, China and Israel).
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
That is very, very impressive if it turns out to be true.
It is impossible to verify.
Of course you would say that after having used every argument under the sun to defend the fascists today. I see you were predicting a tiny turnout even before any announcements.
There are two intolerant, narrow-minded, parochial nationalisms facing off against each other in Catalonia. The PP government's appalling behaviour and long- term stupidity unfortunately obscures the fact that the Catalan separatist government has also done all it can to cause trouble with the rest of Spain and to discriminate against non-Catalan speakers in Catalonia. Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
She can divest herself of any chance of running as Presidential candidate ever again, if she has not done so already.
But, even if she didn't, at least some level of contrition or analysis would be expected. Voters wouldn't like dismissive arrogance.
Hillary could no more stop the dismissive arrogance than she could stop breathing. If you wanted to summarise Clinton's character in two words you could hardly do better than those.
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Tibet, I presume, Dalai Lama.
Nope, wrong continent
Western Sahara?
Can I get a hint?
It's in Europe
Is it one of the tiny countries - possibly so tiny that there is no space within its borders for its givernment to meet?
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Tibet, I presume, Dalai Lama.
Nope, wrong continent
Western Sahara?
Can I get a hint?
It's in Europe
I had nothing, so cheated with Google - Belarus? I suppose it would make sense given it is Europe's last dictatorship.
Left-wingers cheering the Catalans on are supporting people who have explicitly rejected solidarity with the poorest in Spain, while accumulating wealth as a result of being part of Spain. It all stinks to high heaven.
A bit like those ridiculous people who talk of London seceding.
57.7% turnout is amazing and how many thousands of votes have been confiscated.
This is going to run for a very long time
Wow. That's enough to say it was a proper referendum, and if they get a big YES (one presumes they will) then they have moral grounds to claim UDI.
This can end one of two ways. In violence - either low level civil insurrection, or actual civil war - or in Madrid backing down, and allowing another, legal referendum.
The stupidity is that Madrid would easily have won a vote for Spain if they'd allowed one today. After today, who knows. If I was a swing voter in Barcelona I'd now be swinging towards Indy.
Agreed. Does anyone know when the official results are expected to be announced?
If they do, the Spanish Government will move in troops and police.
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
No good options left for anyone. I do wonder why they specify 'within 72 hours'. Why not have all the pro-indy deputies prepared to vote immediately upon announcing. Heck, see if there are any anti-indys who actually will recognise the vote somehow, that'd be a coup (in the non literal sense).
If Catalonia want to declare UDI now they're going to have to be prepared to defend it by force.
I think there may soon be a Catalan government in exile for even greater force is applied.
Can you name me the longest-serving currently existing government in exile?
Tibet, I presume, Dalai Lama.
Nope, wrong continent
Western Sahara?
Can I get a hint?
It's in Europe
Is it one of the tiny countries - possibly so tiny that there is no space within its borders for its givernment to meet?
Not that tiny at all, in fact, but it is landlocked
Comments
https://twitter.com/emergenciescat/status/914584719060275200
But the PP have history on this. They also used the same argument to block more devolution for Catalonia through the revision of the Statute of Autonomy in 2005. The revisions, drawn up by the Catalan Government had the agreement of all the parties in the Spanish Parliament with the exception of the PP who used the constitutional court to block the changes.
So the real stumbling block is the PP - who are in effect the successors to Franco's fascists - and who will do anything to stop any further autonomy for any of Spain's regions.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-41244474
Its no superficial prediction with a global sovereign debt crisis around the corner. We've seen some amazing things happen over the past few years that people would have laughed at anybody for predicting them. In turbulent times like now, things that seem impossible become possible. Everyone would have laughed at the thought of Jeremy Corbyn being extremely close to power just a couple of years ago. Start to think the unthinkable. History shows all too well that empires that seemed to be on very stable foundations have suddenly collapsed from seemingly impregnable positions. The EU will be no different. In the end, everything moves and everything changes. Nobody has built an empire or a monetary system that has been good for all time. Human nature is far too volatile and prone to mood swings for that to happen. Life is changing, embrace change, get used to it. The EU is the old order. It will be ushered off the stage, and I think sooner rather than later.
Or better still, Imperial Airways (post Brexit)
Tis a big unsettler of Turkey though, and will take a lot of oilwealth from Iraq, stirring trouble there.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=trsfoQlM0ts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatton_Cross_tube_station#/media/File:Hatton_Cross_stn_westbound_look_east.JPG
Turnout will be very interesting!
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/01/engine-breaks-up-on-air-france-a380-forcing-emergency-landing-in-canada
https://twitter.com/KennyFarq/status/914535274197192705
https://twitter.com/josepgoded/status/914590756744105985
Now it may be that both Corbyn and Sanders/Warren lose and say Boris and Trump manage to keep up their own populist narrative but if Corbyn wins over here I would bet Sanders or Warren will almost certainly win in the USA too just as Attlee came in in the same period as FDR and Truman and Reagan was elected a year after Thatcher and Trump won 6 months after Brexit
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/914499284703367168
Seven non-UN members recognised by at least one UN member state (Palestine, Kosovo, Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic - Western Sahara, Taiwan, South Ossetia, Northern Cyprus and Abkhazia
Two non-UN members recognised by at least one other non-UN member (presumably each other - Artsakh, Transnistria)
And poor poor Somaliland is not recognised by anybody.
Not sure the page is up to date though.
http://news.sky.com/story/catalonia-independence-vote-spanish-foreign-minister-says-police-violence-not-extraordinary-11063534
As a "newly independent state", how do the Catalan Government propose to stop them?
Transnistria is recognised by South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Artsakh.
The comment from one ultra-Remain poster on preserving the integrity of nation state was a real peach.
https://twitter.com/Carlaw4Eastwood/status/914513548402941952
See, what an amazing day this is.
Does she listen to anyone who tells her hard truths?
1. If a Self governing Community does not fulfil the obligations imposed upon it by the Constitution or other laws, or acts in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the general interest of Spain, the Government, after having lodged a complaint with the President of the Self governing Community and failed to receive satisfaction therefore, may, following approval granted by the overall majority of the Senate, take all measures necessary to compel the Community to meet said obligations, or to protect the above mentioned general interest.
2. With a view to implementing the measures provided for in the foregoing paragraph, the Government may issue instructions to all the authorities of the Self governing Communities.
“
If Murdo provides a shred of evidence that there might be a decent human being lurking within, I'm packing in this politics lark.
Johnson is the most hated Leaver politician and is likely to galvanise Remainers to vote Labour next time.
The Tories need to re-invent the entire party and turn their back on their Thatcherite past. Austerity needs to come to an end, tuition fees abolished, and a new Conservative party needs to be born.
Then the Tories will save themselves-and save Labour from the destruction that a Corbyn government would inflict upon the Labour Party.
Spain has a population of 46 million, 19 million fewer than the UK's 65 million
The boy's uncle believes his nephew was targeted by a rival religious sect after confronting a gang at the mosque a few hours before.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4938138/Boy-stabbed-near-Birmingham-mosque-Syed-Hassan-Abbas.html
1. Spanish nationality shall be acquired, retained and lost in accordance with the provisions of the law.
2. No person of Spanish birth may be deprived of his or her nationality.
3. The State may negotiate dual nationality treaties with Latin-American countries or with those which have had or which have special links with Spain. In these countries Spaniards may become naturalized without losing their nationality of origin, even if those countries do not grant a reciprocal right to their own citizens.
It’s as if we only allowed dual nationality for Commonwealth countries (or perhaps the Commonwealth Realms).
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/914555643226476545
Abolishing tuition fees would also be political suicide for the Tories requiring raising taxes on non graduate skilled working class C2 voters (who voted Tory in June) to pay off the fees of young Corbyn voting middle class students and graduates. Reduce the interest and threshold and link to the earnings premium but don't abolish. As for austerity that is being eased back on with public sector pay rises now coming through
This is going to run for a very long time
Its taken capital a long while to sniff out the fact that its governments around the world that are in trouble, with the consequent huge shift in movable private assets - ie stocks, gold and until recently cryptocurrencies.
That said I did wonder if part of the reason she shoulders little to none of the blame is to keep her options open for another run. If she wrote a book saying "I screwed up and I am a horrible candidate" that would end any possibility of running again, so she almost has to write an "I was robbed" book to leave that option open.
Can I get a hint?
She can divest herself of any chance of running as Presidential candidate ever again, if she has not done so already.
But, even if she didn't, at least some level of contrition or analysis would be expected. Voters wouldn't like dismissive arrogance.
Edit: Looks like a bunch of Pacific and Caribbean Island nations for the most part, and a smattering in south america.
Africa (2 States)
Burkina Faso (1961–1973, 1994)
Swaziland (1968)
Europe (1 State)
Holy See (1942)
Oceania (6 States)
Kiribati (2003)
Marshall Islands (1998)
Nauru (1980–2002, 2005)
Palau (1999)
Solomon Islands (1983)
Tuvalu (1979)
Caribbean (5 States)
Dominican Republic (1957)
Haiti (1956)
Saint Kitts and Nevis (1983)
Saint Lucia (1984–1997, 2007)
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (1981)
Central America (5 States)
Belize (1989)
El Salvador (1961)
Guatemala (1933)[49]
Honduras (1941)
Nicaragua (1962–1985, 1990)
South America (1 State)
Paraguay (1957)
A Greater Manchester Police spokesman said the force does not believe there was a racial motive to the attack.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-manchester-41390061
#clue