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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Nearly two in three voters don’t approve of the way the govern

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    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    You sound like IOS between 2010 and 2015.

    Next you'll be talking about Al Gore Rhythms
    Er... stumped on both points. Do they relate to PB before BP?
    IOS was a London Labour activist who continually boasted about Labour's 'ground game' and how it was certain to bring victory in 2015.
    Ah thanks, I suspected something along those lines.

    Well, I am sure TSE didn't make any rash predictions about the size of the Tory GE2017 majority, in the days before I joined the forum :lol:
    The weekend after she called the election I did say a 2005 style majority was more likely than a 1997/1983 style landslide

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/04/23/why-a-1997-style-landslide-or-even-a-1983-style-landslide-might-not-happen-but-maybe-a-2005-style-majority-of-66-will/

    The weekend before the result I did say Mrs May's ratings were collapsing like the French Army in any war.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/06/04/the-polling-that-should-worry-mrs-may-and-all-tories/

    And of course, my magnum opus from September 2016, which warned the Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/08/30/in-praise-of-jeremy-corbyn/

    In hindsight, the last piece is the best piece I've ever written for PB.
  • Options

    MikeL said:

    Rudd did very badly in the Frank Luntz Con leaders focus group on Sunday Politics.

    5 options were presented:

    Hammond and Rudd were eliminated first - neither considered remotely leadership potential.

    Boris came 3rd.

    Final was Davis v Rees-Mogg - which ended in a tie.

    However, Davis, R-M and Boris were all considered entirely plausible.

    Hammond and Rudd were not.

    Rudd widely considered to be a solid number 2, not a leader.

    Perhaps she's just genuinely trying to hold her seat at the next GE - given it (as Hastings) has been a bell-weather seat since 1983, I suspect she's wasting her money.
    Bellwether, actually :)
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668
    kle4 said:

    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    You sound like IOS between 2010 and 2015.

    Next you'll be talking about Al Gore Rhythms
    Er... stumped on both points. Do they relate to PB before BP?
    IOS was a London Labour activist who continually boasted about Labour's 'ground game' and how it was certain to bring victory in 2015.
    Ah thanks, I suspected something along those lines.

    Well, I am sure TSE didn't make any rash predictions about the size of the Tory GE2017 majority, in the days before I joined the forum :lol:
    Oh, so many end up looking like fools, it happens to everyone at some point, but tone when making predictions that end up being foolish makes a big difference, particularly in handing having that egg on your face afterwards.

    I have heard.
    Yes indeed - not everyone can match my high level of predictive accuracy (er, if we overlook Brexit ref, POTUS 2016 and, um, GE 2017).
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    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668

    MikeL said:

    Rudd did very badly in the Frank Luntz Con leaders focus group on Sunday Politics.

    5 options were presented:

    Hammond and Rudd were eliminated first - neither considered remotely leadership potential.

    Boris came 3rd.

    Final was Davis v Rees-Mogg - which ended in a tie.

    However, Davis, R-M and Boris were all considered entirely plausible.

    Hammond and Rudd were not.

    Rudd widely considered to be a solid number 2, not a leader.

    Perhaps she's just genuinely trying to hold her seat at the next GE - given it (as Hastings) has been a bell-weather seat since 1983, I suspect she's wasting her money.
    Bellwether, actually :)
    I stand corrected :smile:
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2017

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    What about Michael Green?
  • Options

    MP_SE2 said:

    MP_SE2 said:

    Oh god I was joking about Alex Jones.... Apparently this one is false flag by antifa!

    I'm sure MP_SE will be along shortly expressing his outrage.
    I assume you have got me mixed up with someone else as I haven't speculated as to what the killer's motives were.
    But you've been getting exercised by some on the left being complete bellends over the attack, but you're quiet on this, I wonder why.
    I don't jump to conclusions and I don't feel the need to virtue signal. If you were right I would have been posting all that crap about his partner being some deranged anti-Trump activist that was doing the rounds earlier.

    I am sure you are just tetchy, the last 12 months or so have been particularly difficult for you. No Dave... No George... No more chumocracy...
    So that's a no from you, you've been exposed for being a hypocrite.
    Why is he a hypocrite?
    Because he's only focusing on one side coming up with idiotic comments related to today's shootings.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
  • Options
    PlankPlank Posts: 71
    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one. (Apologies for quoting myself but could not edit.)
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,443
    edited October 2017
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited October 2017
    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    (Apologies for quoting myself but could not edit.)
    "Sometimes quoting oneself is the only way to quote sense".

    kle4 2017
  • Options

    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    You sound like IOS between 2010 and 2015.

    Next you'll be talking about Al Gore Rhythms
    Er... stumped on both points. Do they relate to PB before BP?
    IOS was a London Labour activist who continually boasted about Labour's 'ground game' and how it was certain to bring victory in 2015.
    Ah thanks, I suspected something along those lines.

    Well, I am sure TSE didn't make any rash predictions about the size of the Tory GE2017 majority, in the days before I joined the forum :lol:
    The weekend after she called the election I did say a 2005 style majority was more likely than a 1997/1983 style landslide

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/04/23/why-a-1997-style-landslide-or-even-a-1983-style-landslide-might-not-happen-but-maybe-a-2005-style-majority-of-66-will/

    The weekend before the result I did say Mrs May's ratings were collapsing like the French Army in any war.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/06/04/the-polling-that-should-worry-mrs-may-and-all-tories/

    And of course, my magnum opus from September 2016, which warned the Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/08/30/in-praise-of-jeremy-corbyn/

    In hindsight, the last piece is the best piece I've ever written for PB.
    Didn't you predict a 100 majority in the podcast before the election ?

    You wouldn't have been the only one - a certain ancient Jacobite for example.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    Is that based on income or wealth including housing?. I expect London heavily distorts the figures.
  • Options

    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    You sound like IOS between 2010 and 2015.

    Next you'll be talking about Al Gore Rhythms
    Er... stumped on both points. Do they relate to PB before BP?
    IOS was a London Labour activist who continually boasted about Labour's 'ground game' and how it was certain to bring victory in 2015.
    Ah thanks, I suspected something along those lines.

    Well, I am sure TSE didn't make any rash predictions about the size of the Tory GE2017 majority, in the days before I joined the forum :lol:
    The weekend after she called the election I did say a 2005 style majority was more likely than a 1997/1983 style landslide

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/04/23/why-a-1997-style-landslide-or-even-a-1983-style-landslide-might-not-happen-but-maybe-a-2005-style-majority-of-66-will/

    The weekend before the result I did say Mrs May's ratings were collapsing like the French Army in any war.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/06/04/the-polling-that-should-worry-mrs-may-and-all-tories/

    And of course, my magnum opus from September 2016, which warned the Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/08/30/in-praise-of-jeremy-corbyn/

    In hindsight, the last piece is the best piece I've ever written for PB.
    Didn't you predict a 100 majority in the podcast before the election ?

    You wouldn't have been the only one - a certain ancient Jacobite for example.
    Yup, I said 100 seat majority if campaigns don't matter once again.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    edited October 2017
    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    That doesn't surprise me, actually.

    Labour are for the metropolitan, middle classes now. The unaspirational who want publicallyfunded prizes for everyone, and especially their little Tarquins..

    My Labour voting, Welsh railway worker grandfather would be turning in his grave.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    Come on, if Rudd became PM before the next GE it would provoke the biggest parliamentary decapitation operation ever!
    Boris would be even bigger target. He has a London seat on the tube - so easy to swamp with activists - with a diminishing majority which will soon disappear due to demographic changes.

    The way things are going I wonder if the Tories will hold any seats in London in a decade outside Havering and Bromley.
  • Options
    I was so certain of a Tory Majority of 70 to 90 I went to bed with a sleeping tablet rather than face the horror of *that* campaign being endorsed by the public. It was going to be another crippling blow to my sense of Britishness and I just couldn't watch. I've watched every election night obsessively since 1983. Obsessively watching Election Nights is part of who I am. But I just couldn't face the pain. So I sent to bed with a sleeping tablet.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668
    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    That doesn't surprise me, actually.

    Labour are for the metropolitan, middle classes now. The unaspirational who want publicallyfunded prizes for everyone, and especially their little Tarquins..

    My Labour voting, Welsh railway worker grandfather would be turning in his grave.
    "...the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one."

    In income terms maybe, but not, I suspect, in wealth.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668

    I was so certain of a Tory Majority of 70 to 90 I went to bed with a sleeping tablet rather than face the horror of *that* campaign being endorsed by the public. It was going to be another crippling blow to my sense of Britishness and I just couldn't watch. I've watched every election night obsessively since 1983. Obsessively watching Election Nights is part of who I am. But I just couldn't face the pain. So I sent to bed with a sleeping tablet.

    Shame - you only needed to stay up til 10pm to see the fun begin!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.

  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,668
    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    That doesn't surprise me, actually.

    Labour are for the metropolitan, middle classes now. The unaspirational who want publicallyfunded prizes for everyone, and especially their little Tarquins..

    My Labour voting, Welsh railway worker grandfather would be turning in his grave.
    Maybe, but I bet he'd be voting for Jezza too!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    That doesn't surprise me, actually.

    Labour are for the metropolitan, middle classes now. The unaspirational who want publicallyfunded prizes for everyone, and especially their little Tarquins..

    My Labour voting, Welsh railway worker grandfather would be turning in his grave.
    Surely more to do with the Tory voters being on pensions and the Labour voters of working age?

    40% of the UK population are not Tarquins, or however your predjudice stereotypes them.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    I'd assumed a comfortable but not large Tory majority, and intended to sleep, but was rooted to the chair as the night unfolded. First time I have ever voted Tory, I cannot imagine the feeling some proper Tories must have felt.
  • Options

    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    You sound like IOS between 2010 and 2015.

    Next you'll be talking about Al Gore Rhythms
    Er... stumped on both points. Do they relate to PB before BP?
    IOS was a London Labour activist who continually boasted about Labour's 'ground game' and how it was certain to bring victory in 2015.
    Ah thanks, I suspected something along those lines.

    Well, I am sure TSE didn't make any rash predictions about the size of the Tory GE2017 majority, in the days before I joined the forum :lol:
    The weekend after she called the election I did say a 2005 style majority was more likely than a 1997/1983 style landslide

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/04/23/why-a-1997-style-landslide-or-even-a-1983-style-landslide-might-not-happen-but-maybe-a-2005-style-majority-of-66-will/

    The weekend before the result I did say Mrs May's ratings were collapsing like the French Army in any war.

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/06/04/the-polling-that-should-worry-mrs-may-and-all-tories/

    And of course, my magnum opus from September 2016, which warned the Tories not to underestimate Jeremy Corbyn

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/08/30/in-praise-of-jeremy-corbyn/

    In hindsight, the last piece is the best piece I've ever written for PB.
    Didn't you predict a 100 majority in the podcast before the election ?

    You wouldn't have been the only one - a certain ancient Jacobite for example.
    Yup, I said 100 seat majority if campaigns don't matter once again.
    The Conservative campaign succeeded in annoying former voters while Labour's succeeded in inspiring former non-voters.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    The familiar 'now is not the time for a debate...' line makes its predictable appearance in the wake of the shootings...
    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/02/white-house-trump-las-vegas-gun-debate-243371
  • Options
    PlankPlank Posts: 71
    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    It seemed to take Marr by surprise. As I remember the guy he was talking to, Phillip Blond, quoted a source for it.
  • Options

    I was so certain of a Tory Majority of 70 to 90 I went to bed with a sleeping tablet rather than face the horror of *that* campaign being endorsed by the public. It was going to be another crippling blow to my sense of Britishness and I just couldn't watch. I've watched every election night obsessively since 1983. Obsessively watching Election Nights is part of who I am. But I just couldn't face the pain. So I sent to bed with a sleeping tablet.

    Shame - you only needed to stay up til 10pm to see the fun begin!
    No. Popped my pill at 9.55pm and physically switched off all my internet capable devices. I just couldn't face the hammer blow. *That* campaign winning was just too much to face. Certainly after Indyref, EuRef and Trump. I stayed up all night for the horror of those.
  • Options

    I was so certain of a Tory Majority of 70 to 90 I went to bed with a sleeping tablet rather than face the horror of *that* campaign being endorsed by the public. It was going to be another crippling blow to my sense of Britishness and I just couldn't watch. I've watched every election night obsessively since 1983. Obsessively watching Election Nights is part of who I am. But I just couldn't face the pain. So I sent to bed with a sleeping tablet.

    Thankfully only the one.

    Though its interesting that so many non-Conservatives expected a big Conservative victory.
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    That doesn't surprise me, actually.

    Labour are for the metropolitan, middle classes now. The unaspirational who want publicallyfunded prizes for everyone, and especially their little Tarquins..

    My Labour voting, Welsh railway worker grandfather would be turning in his grave.
    Maybe, but I bet he'd be voting for Jezza too!
    Who knows. But he had a very strong work ethic. He wouldn't have liked the betrayal of workers, the poor and the aspirational to give state sponsored prizes to little middle class Tarquins like me...
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2017
    F##king hell they found 18 guns in the hotel and another 14 (or 16) at his home plus 1000s of rounds....And police think he modified some to become full-auto.

    He transported 10 suitcases of weapons and ammo into the hotel.

    That got to be a crazy amount of money he spent on all that hardware.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    I'd assumed a comfortable but not large Tory majority, and intended to sleep, but was rooted to the chair as the night unfolded. First time I have ever voted Tory, I cannot imagine the feeling some proper Tories must have felt.

    I felt crushed, despite my (well hidden) detestation of Mrs May I really wanted three things on election night.

    1) Aaron to become an MP, I’ve gotten to know him really well over last 3/4 years and he’s exactly the sort of person we need as an MP.

    2) The ending of the Corbyn experiment as the country doesn’t need that kind of socialism.

    3) A Scottish Tory surge. When the exit poll came out I thought it meant zero or one Scottish Tory MPs.
  • Options
    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    MP_SE2 said:

    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    That's what they thought in the run up to 2015. Instead her majority went up to 4,700.

    If the LibDems recover a bit, and the Conservatives don't alienate their core vote next time round, she has a good chance of repeating the trick. Still, she's certainly in danger, and that's definitely a problem for any leadership bid.
    Rudd's career history is problematic.
    Absolutely. Lynton Crosby is being very badly advised or isn't doing his own research to touch that woman given her past business career. I'll cheer so loudly when she gets beaten at the next general election. Worst moment by far of the election night when she hung on by around 350 votes, and all after asking for a recount. She clearly had no idea of election protocol.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    Interesting, thanks for sharing that.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one.
    Truly? That is an interesting fact if true.
    That doesn't surprise me, actually.

    Labour are for the metropolitan, middle classes now. The unaspirational who want publicallyfunded prizes for everyone, and especially their little Tarquins..

    My Labour voting, Welsh railway worker grandfather would be turning in his grave.
    Maybe, but I bet he'd be voting for Jezza too!
    Who knows. But he had a very strong work ethic. He wouldn't have liked the betrayal of workers, the poor and the aspirational to give state sponsored prizes to little middle class Tarquins like me...
    Tarquin Mortimer... has a ring to it.
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    hunchman said:

    MP_SE2 said:

    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    That's what they thought in the run up to 2015. Instead her majority went up to 4,700.

    If the LibDems recover a bit, and the Conservatives don't alienate their core vote next time round, she has a good chance of repeating the trick. Still, she's certainly in danger, and that's definitely a problem for any leadership bid.
    Rudd's career history is problematic.
    Absolutely. Lynton Crosby is being very badly advised or isn't doing his own research to touch that woman given her past business career. I'll cheer so loudly when she gets beaten at the next general election. Worst moment by far of the election night when she hung on by around 350 votes, and all after asking for a recount. She clearly had no idea of election protocol.
    I'm curious as to the recount story ? Was Rudd behind on the first count ?
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Vegas shootings:

    No apparent motivation, yet serious planning and effort. Contrary to popular perception, full auto weapons are not just buyable of the shelf on a walk-in basis even in the most red of red states, so the guy either is on a register or he has modded the kit. Also the rate and length of fire suggests some kind of heavy box.

    It doesn't have an obvious shape and most things like this do with 24 hours or so.
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    Y0kel said:

    Vegas shootings:

    No apparent motivation, yet serious planning and effort. Contrary to popular perception, full auto weapons are not just buyable of the shelf on a walk-in basis even in the most red of red states, so the guy either is on a register or he has modded the kit. Also the rate and length of fire suggests some kind of heavy box.

    It doesn't have an obvious shape and most things like this do with 24 hours or so.

    Sheriff speaking now suggesting modified.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    hunchman said:

    MP_SE2 said:

    Oooh, Amber Rudd hires Sir Lynton Crosby.

    https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/914965311346102272

    Rudd surely not secure enough in Hastings to launch a viable bid?
    She's hired him to help her hold Hastings and Rye.
    Haha! That's going Labour next time then, for sure!
    That's what they thought in the run up to 2015. Instead her majority went up to 4,700.

    If the LibDems recover a bit, and the Conservatives don't alienate their core vote next time round, she has a good chance of repeating the trick. Still, she's certainly in danger, and that's definitely a problem for any leadership bid.
    Rudd's career history is problematic.
    Absolutely. Lynton Crosby is being very badly advised or isn't doing his own research to touch that woman given her past business career. I'll cheer so loudly when she gets beaten at the next general election. Worst moment by far of the election night when she hung on by around 350 votes, and all after asking for a recount. She clearly had no idea of election protocol.
    I'm curious as to the recount story ? Was Rudd behind on the first count ?
    She was always ahead, but still asked for a recount. It didn't make any sense at all. I thought she'd lost after asking for a recount, as its obviously normally the candidate that is behind that requests it.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2017
    Apparently he was firing throw the hotel room door at security and police.

    They also found explosives in his car and at his home.
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    Then I spent the whole of Friday avoiding any and all media as I couldn't face the result. Everything was the same in town. Everything. I forced myself to observe how detached political obsessives are from real life. The day was like every other.

    Then finally on Saturday I forced myself to Google some of the local seat results as a start on the horror. Something was up but I still could face it. Then the full seat totals and national vote shares came up by ' accident ' on the top of one of the local BBC links. I will remember that moment till I die.
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Apparently he was firing throw the hotel room door at security and police.

    They also found explosives in his car and at his home.

    Makes a strong case to exclude plain run of the mill mental illness as sole cause if that is so.
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    Y0kel said:

    Apparently he was firing throw the hotel room door at security and police.

    They also found explosives in his car and at his home.

    Makes a strong case to exclude plain run of the mill mental illness as sole cause if that is so.
    Why do you say that?
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited October 2017

    Y0kel said:

    Apparently he was firing throw the hotel room door at security and police.

    They also found explosives in his car and at his home.

    Makes a strong case to exclude plain run of the mill mental illness as sole cause if that is so.
    Why do you say that?
    Plain mental illness leading to violence tends not to have this kind of depth and planning (or ambition). I exclude absolute psychotics as being ill. They aren't they are just plain bad.

    There is an overseas angle to this but it remains to be seen if its of significance.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2017
    Y0kel said:

    Y0kel said:

    Apparently he was firing throw the hotel room door at security and police.

    They also found explosives in his car and at his home.

    Makes a strong case to exclude plain run of the mill mental illness as sole cause if that is so.
    Why do you say that?
    Plain mental illness leading to violence tends not to have this kind of depth and planning (or ambition). I exclude absolute psychotics as being ill. They aren't they are just plain bad.

    There is an overseas angle to this but it remains to be seen if its of significance.
    Well he certainly spent a lot of time / money planning and executing. Huge arsenal of weapons, 4 days in a suite with the perfect view setting up his weapons and a platform.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Y0kel said:

    Y0kel said:

    Apparently he was firing throw the hotel room door at security and police.

    They also found explosives in his car and at his home.

    Makes a strong case to exclude plain run of the mill mental illness as sole cause if that is so.
    Why do you say that?
    Plain mental illness leading to violence tends not to have this kind of depth and planning (or ambition). I exclude absolute psychotics as being ill. They aren't they are just plain bad.

    There is an overseas angle to this but it remains to be seen if its of significance.
    Well he certainly spent a lot of time / money planning and executing. Huge arsenal of weapons, 4 days in a suite with the perfect view setting up his weapons and a platform.
    All they have to do is check when the booking was made and whether he made similar bookings with similar views before. The date of booking in particular might give an idea of where the head was at.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,288
    Plank said:

    Plank said:

    This is a sentence i never thought I would write, but "start the week" on BBC radio 4 was interesting this morning. Specifically it included a discussion between Andrew Marr and someone from the BES on voter churn around GE2017. If anyone fancies catching up on Iplayer take note the unedited morning broadcast is longer than the evening one.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b096gjjh

    Starts around 22 mins in.

    Wanted to add that the following guy in the broadcast also makes interesting points, for example the average Tory voter is now poorer than the average Labour one. (Apologies for quoting myself but could not edit.)
    On the face of it that should give Con a lot of scope for frightening people re higher Lab taxes.

    Not just income tax but maybe even more scope on inheritance tax / wealth tax etc.

    eg I have a friend, Lab supporter in his 50s - two kids - one just left uni, one still at uni. He thought Corbyn abolishing tuition fees (and maybe historic student debt) is the best thing ever.

    His Mum has passed away. His Dad is 89 - owns a house worth about £600k outright + has significant savings (I'm not sure how much - not my business).

    I (tactfully) asked him how much he thought Corbyn would cost him re his inheritance? He literally hadn't even considered it might cost him a single penny. Never occurred to him. I pointed out it might well be way, way more than the total family saving from scrapping tuition fees + student debt for his elder one (even if that happened, which seems unlikely).

    He went extremely quiet.

    It's not an easy message to get across but Con has to keep chipping away in this area.
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    I was stunned for about 10 minutes on discovering on the Saturday evening Corbyn had got 40%. I had to go and sit down quietly on a more comfortable seat just occassion picking the Tablet up to look at the scores in disbelief again. Another lifetime memory. A stable, mature, wise, cynical democracy like the UK and 40% had voted Corbyn ?

    Then I just started laughing. Uncontrollably laughing. Not a single day has passed since that Saturday where I haven't laughed out loud at one point. That wretched banshee and her excitable campaign from the lowest circle of Hell failed. I will laugh till that wretched woman is dragged from Downing Street in shame like a pound shop Cersei Lannister.

    I will regret to my dying day not voting Labour in June 2017. Me with my self absorbed liberalism, reasonableness and focus on Corbyn's here today, gone tomorrow moral repugnancy.

    *That* Conservative campaign deserved the visceral response of a grabbed kitchen knife violently stuck into the gut. And the wise old British electorate did what needed to be done. There are rules. There are limits. There are etiquettes. *That* campaign tore them up. Thank God most voters don't think like me.

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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    SeanT said:



    But EVERYONE will look shop soiled by 2022, and the next GE.

    Corbyn is 68, and will be 73 in 2022. That's really quite old, and, I reckon, way too old for the Brits to elect him as PM.

    In four more years will the Labour Conference still be singing Oooooh, Jeremy Corbyn! - call me an old cynic, but I REALLY doubt it. Corbyn is a phenomenon of political youth, he is the latest boyband in a vest, and boybands come and go.

    Unlike Corbyn, Boris has been in front line politics for a decade, his initial appeal has very much worn off, but he is still a serious politician. He is also like Churchill in terms of being in and out of favour.

    I reckon it will be Boris versus SOMEONE WE CAN'T PREDICT versus Ruth Davidson for Tory leader. Timing is all.

    And the next Labour PM will be Emily Thornberry, producing a much more centrist version of Corbynism, with Softer Brexit.

    Have you conceded you were mistaken about Khan and Uber yet? Latest London-only poll showing strong support for the decision, plus extremely high ratings for Khan, plus a continuing Labour surge.
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    I was on a train just pulling into Birmingham New Street at 10pm on election day - had the Wifi on the train just to see the Exit Poll - I was shocked to see NOM being predicted!
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    F##king hell they found 18 guns in the hotel and another 14 (or 16) at his home plus 1000s of rounds....And police think he modified some to become full-auto.

    He transported 10 suitcases of weapons and ammo into the hotel.

    That got to be a crazy amount of money he spent on all that hardware.

    I was looking up this afternoon online on a discount ammo shop in the US. A 30 round magazine of 7.62 ammo for an AR15 is $23. Bullets - and life - are unfortunately far too cheap.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2017
    Cnn reporting the gunman didn't kill himself, he charged the door and battled with the swat team, who shot him. who
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited October 2017

    F##king hell they found 18 guns in the hotel and another 14 (or 16) at his home plus 1000s of rounds....And police think he modified some to become full-auto.

    He transported 10 suitcases of weapons and ammo into the hotel.

    That got to be a crazy amount of money he spent on all that hardware.

    I was looking up this afternoon online on a discount ammo shop in the US. A 30 round magazine of 7.62 ammo for an AR15 is $23. Bullets - and life - are unfortunately far too cheap.
    You are right. Just looked and you can get a starter version of an AR15 for $500.
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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    The police by now would know if he was intoxicated in some form but they aren't releasing it.
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    Anyway it's taken nearly four months and the recent stuff from Boris but I think I'm finally at the point of understanding June's result. The stretch from the first unveiling of that f**king bus through to *that* May campaign was the mass money printing devaluing the currency. Corbyn getting 40% was the ensuing hyperinflation.

    Games have rules. If one side in a match abandon them so completely as the game breaks down. We are playing cricket but the other lot are cock fighting what do you do ? There is no point being insufferably liberal and responsible about it all. We need to pick up the card table and smash them over the head with it. What have we got to lose ? Apart from everything of course. But maybe us all losing everything is what needed to remind us why the rules existed in the first place.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    On topic, I do wonder if the numbers will switch significantly the first time something substantive is achieved (which unless one believes No deal is happening - which is a possibility - is bound to occur at some point).
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    FPT; (x2<<)

    <blockquote class="UserQuote">



    Pong said:

    Pong said:

    In Las Vegas the woman suspected accomplice is married to a prominent Trump hater apparently.

    It wouldn't be against the realms of possibility as the left have lost their minds over Trump.

    "apparently"

    Source?
    Several US news outlets have released the name of the woman.
    And the source for the "trump hater" bit?
    Her Facebook page. Although now the news reporting they may have identified the wrong woman.


    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/02/las-vegas-shooting-facebook-google-fake-news-shooter
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
    Interesting analysis.

    I found his stance on same sex marriage quite odd in the period 2012-14.

    His opposition to ssm appeared to be "I don't like how fast things are moving" which pleases nobody.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999

    Come on, if Rudd became PM before the next GE it would provoke the biggest parliamentary decapitation operation ever!
    She'd just chicken run to a safe seat made vacant by a convenient ennoblement.
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Pong said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
    Interesting analysis.

    I found his stance on same sex marriage quite odd in the period 2012-14.

    His opposition to ssm appeared to be "I don't like how fast things are moving" which pleases nobody.
    28/1/13:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/jan/28/philip-hammond-gay-marriage-incest

    8/11/13:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10435540/Legalising-same-sex-marriage-was-damaging-for-Tories-Philip-Hammond-says.html

    30/3/14:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10732827/Get-used-to-gay-marriage-Philip-Hammond-tells-Tory-critics.html

    Hammond is a bad fit for an age of conviction politicians.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    On topic.

    Interesting to compare this (volatile) polling with the (stable) leave/remain polls.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
    Just as a matter of interest, how do people benefit from their politicians having principles?

    The best people to run organisations are those without fixed beliefs, who go where the facts tell them, rather than with preconceived notions.

    I don't know whether global warming is real. I don't know what the best system of criminal justice is for minimising offending rates. I don't know what the best education system is.

    But I can devise tests and see what works.

    People crave certainty, and those that will not change their minds. Those people are disastrous leaders of organisations. Why would we expect them to make good Prime Ministers?
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    I just found this old podcast on my phone;

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07wphhk

    Is Corbynism the wake up call or the tipping point? Can the tory party offer a viable conservatism that the young can buy into? A conservatism that is actually in their interests? The future leader of the tory party (or future leader +1) will have grappled with intergenerational economics and have a politically saleable solution.

    Perhaps they need to keep their nose clean until Corbyn's had a go and their client vote are desperate? They're risking him succeeding, though.

    That's the real tory nightmare.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
    Just as a matter of interest, how do people benefit from their politicians having principles?

    The best people to run organisations are those without fixed beliefs, who go where the facts tell them, rather than with preconceived notions.

    I don't know whether global warming is real. I don't know what the best system of criminal justice is for minimising offending rates. I don't know what the best education system is.

    But I can devise tests and see what works.

    People crave certainty, and those that will not change their minds. Those people are disastrous leaders of organisations. Why would we expect them to make good Prime Ministers?
    Corruption.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,003
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting explanation for the violence of the Grenfell conflagration:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-41466281

    That's fascinating, thanks.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:



    Just as a matter of interest, how do people benefit from their politicians having principles?

    The best people to run organisations are those without fixed beliefs, who go where the facts tell them, rather than with preconceived notions.

    I don't know whether global warming is real. I don't know what the best system of criminal justice is for minimising offending rates. I don't know what the best education system is.

    But I can devise tests and see what works.

    People crave certainty, and those that will not change their minds. Those people are disastrous leaders of organisations. Why would we expect them to make good Prime Ministers?

    Robert, I don't think that having solid core principles that you defend and stoutly uphold, and following where the evidence takes you on policy are mutually exclusive. Indeed, I'd argue that all the great business leaders have and have had rock solid core values, and it is precisely this that allows them the flexibility to follow the evidence without being self-contradictory.

    I am with you on the uselessness of seeking certainty and stasis. The world is uncertain, constantly changing and mostly unpredictable, and we must adapt to this change without full knowledge.

    If you have not read it, I think you'd enjoy Leslie Valiant's Probably Approximately Correct: Nature's Algorithms for Learning and Prospering in a Complex World.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles....

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
    Just as a matter of interest, how do people benefit from their politicians having principles?

    The best people to run organisations are those without fixed beliefs, who go where the facts tell them, rather than with preconceived notions.

    I don't know whether global warming is real. I don't know what the best system of criminal justice is for minimising offending rates. I don't know what the best education system is.

    But I can devise tests and see what works.

    People crave certainty, and those that will not change their minds. Those people are disastrous leaders of organisations. Why would we expect them to make good Prime Ministers?
    This seems a rather confused way of looking at things. In my experience, the absence of principles is not at all well correlated with the capacity for empiricism.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting explanation for the violence of the Grenfell conflagration:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-41466281

    That's fascinating, thanks.
    And it seems so obvious when pointed out - while at the same time understandable that no one thought to test for this before now.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    Interesting article on the finances of Chinese universities:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/world-view/some-notes-finances-top-chinese-universities

    More evidence that this is likely the Chinese century.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting explanation for the violence of the Grenfell conflagration:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-41466281

    That's fascinating, thanks.
    And it seems so obvious when pointed out - while at the same time understandable that no one thought to test for this before now.
    Lots of caveats on jumping to conclusions etc etc. The guy's theory could be irrelevant of course.

    But - assuming for a minute that this is the missing link - I'm not sure it's understandable that it didn't show up in tests. Are we not *actual use* testing these innovative construction materials?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    You have to wonder about the 36%.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,003
    Pong said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting explanation for the violence of the Grenfell conflagration:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-41466281

    That's fascinating, thanks.
    And it seems so obvious when pointed out - while at the same time understandable that no one thought to test for this before now.
    Lots of caveats on jumping to conclusions etc etc. The guy's theory could be irrelevant of course.

    But - assuming for a minute that this is the missing link - I'm not sure it's understandable that it didn't show up in tests. Are we not *actual use* testing these innovative construction materials?
    We're seemingly doing very few relevant tests. Those who screech out for more housebuilding might want to consider that there are more problems than just numbers, and in many cases we're leaving people to live in substandard new accommodation.

    But if I've read the story correctly, it's a weathering issue. The question then becomes how long you leave it out before testing. Ideally you'd leave some on a building for a few years and then repeat tests, but it would cost a great deal to do it for all new materials, you'd get a lot of passes, and there would be questions of whether you are testing for the right thing.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting article on the finances of Chinese universities:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/world-view/some-notes-finances-top-chinese-universities

    More evidence that this is likely the Chinese century.

    Did not SeanT point out that China was massively increasing spending on research at the same time as Britain was cutting back?
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    You have to wonder about the 36%.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4OfWTWWEAA2GQj.jpg
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2017

    You have to wonder about the 36%.

    Presumably a mixture of those who know nothing, those that believe our negotiators are competent and those who quite enjoy them breaking down in chaos.

    It is a curious graph, as the numbers were similar before A50 when there were no negotiations. Indeed the main period of support was when the election was on, and little actively happening.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,003
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting article on the finances of Chinese universities:
    https://www.insidehighered.com/blogs/world-view/some-notes-finances-top-chinese-universities

    More evidence that this is likely the Chinese century.

    It is going to be increasingly difficult for China to continue its rise and maintain its current social and political structure. Graduates like to think and like to earn money; those things are not as easy in China as it might be.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Interesting nod to Corbynism in the government's response to the Monarch collapse. £60m of taxpayers money upfront to cover flights home with costs reclaimed from Credit/Debit Card companies later if possible. Doubtless the coincidence with the Tory Conference will have sharpened minds but it's an interest approach to a free market failure. Big State response to protect customers who were owed nothing under Caveat Emptor but avoiding the moral hazard of saving the Airline it's self. The briefing has started HMG refused a bridging loan.

    If they pull it off, and the early signs are it's working, kudos of sorts to the government. It's an I retesting triangulation between a PR fiasco and Corbynist Corporate Welfare.

    Nothing to see here. It's what the CAA does.
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.
    But surely that is just Shapp`s account of things. Therefore just self-promoting spin.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,718
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
    Just as a matter of interest, how do people benefit from their politicians having principles?

    The best people to run organisations are those without fixed beliefs, who go where the facts tell them, rather than with preconceived notions.

    I don't know whether global warming is real. I don't know what the best system of criminal justice is for minimising offending rates. I don't know what the best education system is.

    But I can devise tests and see what works.

    People crave certainty, and those that will not change their minds. Those people are disastrous leaders of organisations. Why would we expect them to make good Prime Ministers?
    The tests have been done for Climate Change and it is real.
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Just heard a commentator from the Spectator by way reading the tea-leaves say 'by far the biggest events in Manchester were those hosted by Ruth Davidson and Jacob Rees-Mogg'.

    I'm starting to wonder whether in the interests of the country an orderly hand over to Jeremy might be to everyone's long term advantage.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Roger said:

    Just heard a commentator from the Spectator by way reading the tea-leaves say 'by far the biggest events in Manchester were those hosted by Ruth Davidson and Jacob Rees-Mogg'.

    I'm starting to wonder whether in the interests of the country an orderly hand over to Jeremy might be to everyone's long term advantage.

    Moggmentum is a real phenomenon, but Ruth may be the next but one leader.

    I watched "Today at Conference" after Newsnight. Not much of a crowd for anyone.

    https://twitter.com/BarryGardiner/status/914947044879556608
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,240
    You know things haven't gone too well over that Catalonia referendum when you see stories like this:

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN1C61S9
    Roger said:

    Just heard a commentator from the Spectator by way reading the tea-leaves say 'by far the biggest events in Manchester were those hosted by Ruth Davidson and Jacob Rees-Mogg'.

    I'm starting to wonder whether in the interests of the country an orderly hand over to Jeremy might be to everyone's long term advantage.

    Even if the alternative is Jacob Rees-Mogg, that is still preferable to a Corbyn government. Mogg at least has a brain, some experience of work, has never been accused of supporting terrorism and has never so far as I know had to face awkward questions about his silence over child sexual abuse.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    PClipp said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.
    But surely that is just Shapp`s account of things. Therefore just self-promoting spin.
    It's a view. Are you claiming he didn't prevent Timothy getting a seat ?

    Even if he made it up entirely - which seems mildly unlikely - it would still marginally improve my respect for him.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Roger said:

    Just heard a commentator from the Spectator by way reading the tea-leaves say 'by far the biggest events in Manchester were those hosted by Ruth Davidson and Jacob Rees-Mogg'.

    I'm starting to wonder whether in the interests of the country an orderly hand over to Jeremy might be to everyone's long term advantage.

    Moggmentum is a real phenomenon, but Ruth may be the next but one leader.

    I watched "Today at Conference" after Newsnight. Not much of a crowd for anyone.

    https://twitter.com/BarryGardiner/status/914947044879556608
    Are there now not more LibDem members than Tories ?

    Another election with May as leader and the party might fold like a wet paper bag.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Nigelb said:

    PClipp said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.
    But surely that is just Shapp`s account of things. Therefore just self-promoting spin.
    It's a view. Are you claiming he didn't prevent Timothy getting a seat ?

    Even if he made it up entirely - which seems mildly unlikely - it would still marginally improve my respect for him.
    Mildly unlikely?

    Making thing up is what the disgraced internet scammer, Grant Shapps, does;

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2015/mar/16/grant-shapps-business-mp-conservative-chairman-michael-green

  • Options
    On topic - there are Brexit negotiations? From what I can see/read our team confidently go into the sessions having told the press there would be the mother of all battles and telling Johnny foreigner to spin on it, then the EU say "no seriously we aren't goi g to do that" and our team say "yeah alright then".
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    Y0kel said:

    Vegas shootings:

    No apparent motivation, yet serious planning and effort. Contrary to popular perception, full auto weapons are not just buyable of the shelf on a walk-in basis even in the most red of red states, so the guy either is on a register or he has modded the kit. Also the rate and length of fire suggests some kind of heavy box.

    It doesn't have an obvious shape and most things like this do with 24 hours or so.

    No heavy box he was changing magazines as you can hear in one of the videos.
  • Options

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    What have we done to deserve the choice of Boris or Jez ?

    The only one that looks remotely qualified to run the country from either of the big two right now is Phil Hammond.

    He seems to provoke visceral dislike from many Tories. He was being briefed against for months in the lead up to the referendum, and while such polling as exists suggests he is hardly super popular with the rank and vile, I struggle to see why the possibility provokes such animus.
    He has an annoying habit of talking sense.
    It is pretty easy to see why he is not popular - he has no principles.

    This is a guy who always portrayed himself as a eurosceptic. The moment the referendum arrived, he switched to remain because he thought they would win. When he became Chancellor, he seemed to support hard Brexit and spoke about how the UK could become a low tax haven if the EU refused to deal. Then, the moment May lost the election and 'soft Brexit' became the fashion, he suddenly changed tack again. He gives the impression of someone who has been house-trained by the Treasury.

    He will never be Tory leader - the only people who support him are those who want to reverse Brexit, which is a clear minority in the Party (eg he is only popular amongst non-Tory Remainers). If he did become leader, he would probably betray them and go for WTO if he thought it would help him.
    Just as a matter of interest, how do people benefit from their politicians having principles?

    The best people to run organisations are those without fixed beliefs, who go where the facts tell them, rather than with preconceived notions.

    I don't know whether global warming is real. I don't know what the best system of criminal justice is for minimising offending rates. I don't know what the best education system is.

    But I can devise tests and see what works.

    People crave certainty, and those that will not change their minds. Those people are disastrous leaders of organisations. Why would we expect them to make good Prime Ministers?
    The tests have been done for Climate Change and it is real.
    Indeed. There is no doubt whatsoever that anthropogenic global warming and consequent climate change is a real and significant effect. The doubt lies only in the extent to which it will impact on human life and the timescale over which this will happen.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    Pong said:

    Nigelb said:

    PClipp said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10....

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.
    But surely that is just Shapp`s account of things. Therefore just self-promoting spin.
    It's a view. Are you claiming he didn't prevent Timothy getting a seat ?

    Even if he made it up entirely - which seems mildly unlikely - it would still marginally improve my respect for him.
    Mildly unlikely?

    Making thing up is what the disgraced internet scammer, Grant Shapps, does;

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2015/mar/16/grant-shapps-business-mp-conservative-chairman-michael-green

    I'm not exactly a fan of the risible lightweight - but when even he begins to sound almost statesmanlike when contrasted with the current leader.....
  • Options
    Nigelb said:

    PClipp said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.
    But surely that is just Shapp`s account of things. Therefore just self-promoting spin.
    It's a view. Are you claiming he didn't prevent Timothy getting a seat ?

    Even if he made it up entirely - which seems mildly unlikely - it would still marginally improve my respect for him.
    I was aware of this story back in 2015 from an unimpeachable source, it backs up Mr Shapps.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Nigelb said:

    Pong said:

    Nigelb said:

    PClipp said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10....

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.
    But surely that is just Shapp`s account of things. Therefore just self-promoting spin.
    It's a view. Are you claiming he didn't prevent Timothy getting a seat ?

    Even if he made it up entirely - which seems mildly unlikely - it would still marginally improve my respect for him.
    Mildly unlikely?

    Making thing up is what the disgraced internet scammer, Grant Shapps, does;

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/shortcuts/2015/mar/16/grant-shapps-business-mp-conservative-chairman-michael-green

    I'm not exactly a fan of the risible lightweight - but when even he begins to sound almost statesmanlike when contrasted with the current leader.....
    The country's really fucked, isn't it?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    This Conference shows the price paid for having a zombie as leader. We have a number of people trying to make a splash but their efforts are all being judged in the context of a potential leadership campaign. The Tories are not going to come out of this conference with any kind of momentum or vision of where the government is going. This lack of coherence, vision and grip is not likely to improve the perception of how the Brexit negotiations are going.

    I fear the longer May remains as leader the longer this will go on. The question is whether the damage is permanent or not. I think it is going to be hard to recover.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    And by the way 15 years for looking at something on the internet? I mean, really? What are we coming too?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Nigelb said:

    PClipp said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Who does Grant Shapps tilt towards? Who are his allies?

    He has huge bad blood with Nick Timothy, so very anti-May.

    I expect him to back David Davis, although he might back any Cameroon style leader.
    Ta.

    He's sounding pretty isolated at the moment, to be honest...
    Just googled it and it is public knowledge so I'm not breaking any confidences.

    Grant Shapps was Tory chairman in 2014, Nick Timothy was on the candidates list, Nick Timothy was asked by Shapps to go campaign in the Rochester by election in 2014 to help beat the traitorous pig dog defector Mark Reckless.

    Timothy refused, and Shapps removed Timothy from the candidates list and well, this happened.

    A TOP Tory claims he became target of a vicious smear campaign after he stopped two of Theresa May’s closest aides becoming MPs.

    Former party chairman Grant Shapps says the angry pair stormed out of a meeting vowing: “You will live to regret this decision.”

    He then found himself at the centre of a wave of false and malicious rumours which began sweeping Westminster.

    Mr Shapps lifted the lid on the “destructive” forces at the heart of the PM’s team as he urged her to clean up the toxic atmosphere in Number 10.

    He told how he met a fearsome backlash after he blocked two senior advisers from running in safe Tory seats at the General Election.

    Nick Timothy and Stephen Parkinson were suspended from the party’s approved candidates list after they refused to campaign in the 2014 Rochester by-election won by Ukip.

    Mrs May, who was Home Secretary at the time, pleaded with Mr Shapps three times to overturn his decision.

    He stood firm but agreed to meet them “out of courtesy.”


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3977187/top-tory-grant-shapps-targeted-in-vicious-smear-campaign-after-stopping-two-of-theresa-mays-closest-aides-becoming-mps/
    My respect for Shapps' judgment has risen a little.
    But surely that is just Shapp`s account of things. Therefore just self-promoting spin.
    It's a view. Are you claiming he didn't prevent Timothy getting a seat ?

    Even if he made it up entirely - which seems mildly unlikely - it would still marginally improve my respect for him.
    I was aware of this story back in 2015 from an unimpeachable source, it backs up Mr Shapps.
    Interesting.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    DavidL said:

    This Conference shows the price paid for having a zombie as leader. We have a number of people trying to make a splash but their efforts are all being judged in the context of a potential leadership campaign. The Tories are not going to come out of this conference with any kind of momentum or vision of where the government is going. This lack of coherence, vision and grip is not likely to improve the perception of how the Brexit negotiations are going.

    I fear the longer May remains as leader the longer this will go on. The question is whether the damage is permanent or not. I think it is going to be hard to recover.

    Still, at this rate they'll be able to pick the next leader on a show of hands.
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