No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Maybe there could be a Catalan - UK trade deal
Good idea. Liam Fox is already a bit tied up so maybe we could send Boris to negotiate it.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Maybe there could be a Catalan - UK trade deal
Good idea. Liam Fox is already a bit tied up so maybe we could send Boris to negotiate.
I heard he's to be sent as a peace envoy to Korea.
Feel free to ignore me. I could be wrong. It could be that voters are desperate for someone to the right of Margaret Thatcher with social views anchored very firmly in the 1950s.
Nah. Even I agree with you and, his religious views apart, I do like JRM. But he shouldn't getvwithim a hundred miles of being PM.
I would still like David Davis but accept he is not likely to get the job either by choice or because he cannot enthuse the Tory party.
Otherwise I think they should be looking to bypass all of the current crop of hopefuls. They all have significant faults. Instead they should be looking to the younger generation. Someone like Mercer or Stewart could reinvigorate the party and the electorate.
Or Kwarteng,
But it has to be the Next Generation.
Liz Truss and Dominic Raab come across as the most normal yet credible leaders to me.
She's too busy in China opening new pork markets to be leader.
I'm afraid I do have to ask this, but did Gove actually say that about pig's ears? Sorry, but normally I would just ignore it, but this week seems to be a Charles Dodgson fantasy gone mad!
Yes, according to Google results for a search for pig's ear in news.
Thanks, I was actually expecting one of the PBtories at the conference to confirm it or not. It is so totally bizarre. Looks like all the Tory front runners have suddenly realised that being PM is not the best job in town for the foreseeable future.....
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Maybe there could be a Catalan - UK trade deal
My good lady would have to survive on Cava rather than prosecco, but needs must.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work?
I don't know that they do - for all their pressing ahead with the referendum was the catalyst to the recent escalation, as an outsider I'm not convinced that was entirely their endgame, given the practical concerns associated with it which can hardly have escaped them. IIRC merely calling the last unofficial plebiscite got the last Catalan president disbarred from office. With the president and so many regional MPs and officials involved in another illegal vote, this one they claimed the intention to be binding, whether the vote had indeed been stopped or not I can only assume Madrid would have seen no option than to mass bar a whole bunch of them, and presumably take direct control.
That being the case, a vote which they said could lead to a UDI was presumably also an option to try to force Madrid to concede ground, if it had gone ahead peacefully, a 'you can disbar us, but until you give us a legal vote, this will keep happening scenario' but the violent reaction has both emboldened the separatists and somewhat pushed them toward a UDI even if it had been intended only as a threat.
If they do it they seemingly have no power to enforce it, and no one of substance will recognise it, so best case scenario we're looking at a civil disobedience campaign as Madrid assumes direct control, and then eventually a new settlement to return autonomy when Madrid realises they cannot keep direct control forever like that, and the separatists, or enough of them, accept that in exchange for not continuing to claim their UDI?
Pure speculation of course. I still have difficulty believing they will UDI until they actually do it. It's probably how Charles I felt when the commissioners for the High Court of Justice met to determine his fate.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
It's not MACA you want to be worried about it's MACP.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
There must be precedent. Rhodesia for example, and Ireland within the British context.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
One of the stand out essays on the English Reformation that I read during the c.10 days I spent studying it at University was on logistics. Getting rid of the cumbersome accumulated intercessionary prayers was a big plus for English monasteries and churches.
It isn't an analogy at all - just a brief thought - but I do begin to wonder if inter-governmental rules on things like, inter alia, landing aeroplanes and clearing funds have got a bit out of hand. They threaten to stifle as much progress as they stimulate.
There must be precedent. Rhodesia for example, and Ireland within the British context.
Rhodesia had support from South Africa, and was already a pretty-much fully functioning country. In any case it was much simpler in those days, and they didn't have any equivalent of the very tight-knit integration of Catalonia within the EU.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Maybe there could be a Catalan - UK trade deal
Only after a hard Brexit March 2019, until then we will have to play by EU rules or pay significant fines. The problem that Fox has is that the EU has done trade deals with all the major trading countries and blocs which make it impossible for them to do individual deals with countries inside the European Union, which we still are.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
That seems sound - we know that, at best, around half of the Catalan population was in favour of independence prior to the weekend's events. Even if that has let to a surge of new support, or hardening of that support, are there enough of them in the right places to actually get something out of this? States can easily survive international condemnation for being heavy handed, and there may not even be all that much.
History does show us that sheer determination can sometimes be the decider, even when those people are seemingly outnumbered by their foes, but you do still need power to bear, and do the Catalan separatists have enough of it?
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
This post sounds incredibly ominous and threatening...
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
No, it will be an economic squeeze. Catalans can choose whether to be the wealthiest part of Spain or poor and isolated outside it. Some will choose the latter, of course, most won't. It will be deeply unpleasant and was wholly preventable, but both sides are led by obstinate, pig-headed nationalists, so what else do you expect?
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
One of the stand out essays on the English Reformation that I read during the c.10 days I spent studying it at University was on logistics. Getting rid of the cumbersome accumulated intercessionary prayers was a big plus for English monasteries and churches.
It isn't an analogy at all - just a brief thought - but I do begin to wonder if inter-governmental rules on things like, inter alia, landing aeroplanes and clearing funds have got a bit out of hand. They threaten to stifle as much progress as they stimulate.
Um! Having a couple of aeroplanes trying to occupy the same runway might be rather fraught, while clearing funds obviously is of interest to the different revenue services and to dissuade criminal activities. Sometimes rules and laws are just the application of common sense, like banning arsenic and white lead from being used in baking bread....
There must be precedent. Rhodesia for example, and Ireland within the British context.
Rhodesia had support from South Africa, and was already a pretty-much fully functioning country. In any case it was much simpler in those days, and they didn't have any equivalent of the very tight-knit integration of Catalonia within the EU.
Catalonia is more integrated into Spain. UDI can be declared, but cannot be implemented. And if it happens and the economy goes south, as it will, a lot of Catalans will ask themselves whether things were really that bad when they had a high level of autonomy, a resurgent language and culture, and 19% of the GDP of a G20 economy. The one way that won't happen - and I suppose you cannot rule it out completely because it's the PP we are talking about - is if there are troop deployments and more state-inflicted violence. If that does happen, the separatists will get what they want.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Maybe there could be a Catalan - UK trade deal
I know you're joking but its more likely than Spain realising its ambitions of acquiring Gibraltar.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
No, it will be an economic squeeze. Catalans can choose whether to be the wealthiest part of Spain or poor and isolated outside it. Some will choose the latter, of course, most won't. It will be deeply unpleasant and was wholly preventable, but both sides are led by obstinate, pig-headed nationalists, so what else do you expect?
The Spanish government have plans to boot the current Catalan administration into touch and administer directly.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
No, it will be an economic squeeze. Catalans can choose whether to be the wealthiest part of Spain or poor and isolated outside it. Some will choose the latter, of course, most won't. It will be deeply unpleasant and was wholly preventable, but both sides are led by obstinate, pig-headed nationalists, so what else do you expect?
The Spanish government have plans to boot the current Catalan administration into touch and administer directly.
Yep, that might happen once UDI is declared. It's detailed in Article 155 of the Spanish constitution. In the hands of PP it could turn into a complete shit-storm. Far wiser would be just to ignore UDI and let the Catalan government - an unsustainable mix of left and right - eat itself.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how do the Catalan nationalists even think UDI would work? From an international point of view it would still be part of Spain, certainly no EU country would recognise it. If the Spanish government didn't intervene, Catalonia would be left in a legal limbo with banks not clearly able to operate (would they operate under Spanish law in this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
No, it will be an economic squeeze. Catalans can choose whether to be the wealthiest part of Spain or poor and isolated outside it. Some will choose the latter, of course, most won't. It will be deeply unpleasant and was wholly preventable, but both sides are led by obstinate, pig-headed nationalists, so what else do you expect?
The Spanish government have plans to boot the current Catalan administration into touch and administer directly.
Yep, that might happen once UDI is declared. It's detailed in Article 155 of the Spanish constitution. In the hands of PP it could turn into a complete shit-storm. Far wiser would be just to ignore UDI and let the Catalan government - an unsustainable mix of left and right - eat itself.
Yes, that would be wise, and leave the substantial minority of Spanish loyalists to oppose the separtists peacefully. Force is not the way.
That seems sound - we know that, at best, around half of the Catalan population was in favour of independence prior to the weekend's events. Even if that has let to a surge of new support, or hardening of that support, are there enough of them in the right places to actually get something out of this? States can easily survive international condemnation for being heavy handed, and there may not even be all that much.
History does show us that sheer determination can sometimes be the decider, even when those people are seemingly outnumbered by their foes, but you do still need power to bear, and do the Catalan separatists have enough of it?
I watched The Butler for the first time last week. I had never heard of the Freedom Riders before, and have spent a few hours since surfing the web to fill in that shocking gap in my knowledge.
Given the high-handedness and propensity to small level violence of the Spanish state, it strikes me that the Catalans could easily adapt the passive, non-violent tactics of the Freedom Riders in order to elicit further violence from the Spanish state over a sufficiently prolonged period that even the EU won't be able to ignore it.
That does take sufficient numbers of unbelievably brave people to risk their lives (and almost certain imprisonment). At one point, Mississippi's tactic was to jail all the Freedom Riders. So the adaptation of strategy was to flood the system with Freedom Riders so the jails would fill to overflowing. At one point, there were over 450 of them in prison in Mississippi.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
What choice do they have, if Catalonia tries to declare UDI?
For that matter, how this supposedly independent country?), and airlines not able to land. Even trade in goods to across the border with the EU would be in legal and regulatory limbo.
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
No, it will be an economic squeeze. Catalans can choose whether to be the wealthiest part of Spain or poor and isolated outside it. Some will choose the latter, of course, most won't. It will be deeply unpleasant and was wholly preventable, but both sides are led by obstinate, pig-headed nationalists, so what else do you expect?
The Spanish government have plans to boot the current Catalan administration into touch and administer directly.
Yep, that might happen once UDI is declared. It's detailed in Article 155 of the Spanish constitution. In the hands of PP it could turn into a complete shit-storm. Far wiser would be just to ignore UDI and let the Catalan government - an unsustainable mix of left and right - eat itself.
Yes, that would be wise, and leave the substantial minority of Spanish loyalists to oppose the separtists peacefully. Force is not the way.
Catalans are usually thought of as deeply pragmatic and careful with money. They grew rich as a part of Spain and on the backs of poverty-stricken Spaniards who headed to Barcelona and its environs from the poorest parts of the country. They'll struggle not to be as well off as they are now. A sensible government in Madrid would realise this and act accordingly. But PP have demonstrated time and again they don't do sensible.
No one seems to have noticed the signs of Spanish government contingency plans to take direct control of the Catalonia region. When you have military units being tagged to role 'in support of the civil authorities' and military police units being readied to move to neighboring Aragon, its clear they have some sort of back pocket plan. .
Its more the fact they are reportedly prepping for a full-on intervention not some take you to court type stuff. The Spanish government are pretty confident the EU will sit tight with them.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
No, it will be an economic squeeze. Catalans can choose whether to be the wealthiest part of Spain or poor and isolated outside it. Some will choose the latter, of course, most won't. It will be deeply unpleasant and was wholly preventable, but both sides are led by obstinate, pig-headed nationalists, so what else do you expect?
The Spanish government have plans to boot the current Catalan administration into touch and administer directly.
Yep, that might happen once UDI is declared. It's detailed in Article 155 of the Spanish constitution. In the hands of PP it could turn into a complete shit-storm. Far wiser would be just to ignore UDI and let the Catalan government - an unsustainable mix of left and right - eat itself.
It is likely to be too far gone to ignore. Again, I'm not sure people get how much Madrid is willing to stake in putting this to bed and visibly putting it to bed. People seem to confuse the contingency of using the military to support the civil power with the idea of driving tanks in and using live ammunition like its Budapest or Prague...or the Baltic states for that matter.
There is a live chance that Madrid will go with a maximal approach, of such an overwhelming response without much much in the way of gradual escalating steps, to any further moves.
Does everyone on this site go to bed at midnight? Or is it my posts that are the kiss of death?
*waves*
I'm still here. (Well have just got back from Canada and have not adjusted yet to a UK time zone.)
Re the Freedom Riders, I've been watching "Eyes on the Prize" - a superb US documentary on the Civil Rights years. Just got to Episode 3. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neDpuJVc4Ko. Well worth your time.
Re Catalonia: If - God forbid - there were to be another terrorist atrocity, I wonder how welcome Rajoy and the King would be.
Does everyone on this site go to bed at midnight? Or is it my posts that are the kiss of death?
*waves*
I'm still here. (Well have just got back from Canada and have not adjusted yet to a UK time zone.)
Re the Freedom Riders, I've been watching "Eyes on the Prize" - a superb US documentary on the Civil Rights years. Just got to Episode 3. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neDpuJVc4Ko. Well worth your time.
Re Catalonia: If - God forbid - there were to be another terrorist atrocity, I wonder how welcome Rajoy and the King would be.
Cyclefree, hope the trip was fun. Thanks for the recommendation - I'll definitely look it up. I am off to watch "This Is Us" now.
Are you around in the latter part of November. I am going to be in the UK for a couple of weeks and would be great to meet up in person.
Does everyone on this site go to bed at midnight? Or is it my posts that are the kiss of death?
*waves*
I'm still here. (Well have just got back from Canada and have not adjusted yet to a UK time zone.)
Re the Freedom Riders, I've been watching "Eyes on the Prize" - a superb US documentary on the Civil Rights years. Just got to Episode 3. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neDpuJVc4Ko. Well worth your time.
Re Catalonia: If - God forbid - there were to be another terrorist atrocity, I wonder how welcome Rajoy and the King would be.
Cyclefree, hope the trip was fun. Thanks for the recommendation - I'll definitely look it up. I am off to watch "This Is Us" now.
Are you around in the latter part of November. I am going to be in the UK for a couple of weeks and would be great to meet up in person.
I certainly am. Would be great to meet up. I'll email you.
Er, has anybody mentioned the New Fresh New People's New Party which is going to sweep everything before it and rescue the nation? It has the backing of the person who came 4th in the UKIP leadership election, so it's bound to succeed:
When the Catalans realise that Barca will be thrown out of the spanish league and will be left playing noddy local teams with no route into the champions league they will change their mind. Some things are more important than polotics
How can the Tories survive more "victories" like June?
I suspect hung parliaments are a feature of our electoral landscape until things become less polarised.
Or when Dave becomes leader again.
Only Tory to win a majority in the last quarter of a century.
Except he wouldn't come back to parliament unless he could be leader, I would guess, and he couldn't be leader unless an MP, realistically.
I'd like to see a former PM serve in the cabinet of a successor - when was the last time it happened? Even if it wouldn't happen in the immediate aftermath, I'd have thought the benefit of our system would be being able to call upon the services of a former leader.
I think Douglas-Hume was Heath's Foreign Secretary?
Er, has anybody mentioned the New Fresh New People's New Party which is going to sweep everything before it and rescue the nation? It has the backing of the person who came 4th in the UKIP leadership election, so it's bound to succeed:
How did Damian Green manage to become First Secretary of State? A wetter and less encouraging blanket it would be hard to find. He looks and sounds like he is constantly apologising for his very existence.
How did Damian Green manage to become First Secretary of State? A wetter and less encouraging blanket it would be hard to find. He looks and sounds like he is constantly apologising for his very existence.
How can the Tories survive more "victories" like June?
I suspect hung parliaments are a feature of our electoral landscape until things become less polarised.
Or when Dave becomes leader again.
Only Tory to win a majority in the last quarter of a century.
Except he wouldn't come back to parliament unless he could be leader, I would guess, and he couldn't be leader unless an MP, realistically.
I'd like to see a former PM serve in the cabinet of a successor - when was the last time it happened? Even if it wouldn't happen in the immediate aftermath, I'd have thought the benefit of our system would be being able to call upon the services of a former leader.
I think Douglas-Hume was Heath's Foreign Secretary?
Indeed, and I think, happier in that job than that of PM.
So the word on the street is that the government is going to announce plans to build more council houses. I am beginning to think that we get the most left-wing policies from minority Conservative governments.
Mr. L, I believe it's because he's the new crutch/old friend for the PM. I agree entirely on his sopping wet status.
So I understand but being the last person alive who believes in her leadership should not be a sufficient qualification for such an elevated position. I fear the Tories lose votes every time he is put in front of a camera. His performance on Sky News this morning was lamentable.
I am interested to know if the opponents of the UC scheme are opposed because of the principle of UC (which seems to me a good one given the traps that existed under the previous benefits system that prevented people pursuing work) or only object because of the catastrophically bad way it is being implemented?
If the latter then it needs to be made clear to the wider public by those protesting that the issue is not the scheme itself but the failures of the Government to ensure it is properly introduced and managed.
My friend who works at a Jobcentre plus that has rolled out universal credit says her biggest issue is the single recipient of the benefits.
In the past if there were two recipients of different benefits, they would be paid individually, now it just goes to one of them as a lump sum, which causes issues, this Guardian piece gives a flavor.
Take, for example, the stipulation that the benefit must be paid to a single head of household rather than to individual claimants. While this may reduce administration efforts and complications for the DWP, whose IT systems have already been dogged by universal credit-related glitches, it is also effective in disempowering women.
Access to financial resource is, after all, a key factor in gender inequality and one that has direct implications for child poverty. With women more likely to be out of work or in low-paid employment, a 1950s-esque “head of household” model based on outdated nuclear family units is likely to see men in heterosexual partnerships taking on the breadwinner role, stripping their partners of financial independence and decision-making power.
Given that sanctions can be imposed on a whole household while payments are made to a designated recipient, women are left bearing responsibilities but with few of the rights that should reasonably go along with them. This situation is further worsened for women who find themselves in abusive relationships: by robbing women of access to financial independence and resources, the state essentially awards abusive men another means by which to trap their victims.
She also has other issues with universal credit, such as housing benefit no longer being paid directly to the landlord, and that UC is paid monthly, not fortnightly, some of the people on benefits have no concept of budgeting, fortnightly payments help with budgeting, monthly, less so.
Also, it is well documented that money paid for specific reasons (for example child benefit) gets spent on that specific reason even though money is fungible and could be spent on anything. Having a single payment for everything eliminates that nudge.
Er, has anybody mentioned the New Fresh New People's New Party which is going to sweep everything before it and rescue the nation? It has the backing of the person who came 4th in the UKIP leadership election, so it's bound to succeed:
Reading between the drips of Green's performance and the spin already given to the Beeb it looks as if Theresa is going to tell some hard truths to her party today. They are clearly not good enough, they let her down and its all their fault that the election did not go to plan. She might even acknowledge being fractionally less than perfect herself.
Asking a party to shape up when the debate is whether she should ship out would be brave. In a strictly Yes Minister sense of course.
Reading between the drips of Green's performance and the spin already given to the Beeb it looks as if Theresa is going to tell some hard truths to her party today. They are clearly not good enough, they let her down and its all their fault that the election did not go to plan. She might even acknowledge being fractionally less than perfect herself.
Asking a party to shape up when the debate is whether she should ship out would be brave. In a strictly Yes Minister sense of course.
My friend who works at a Jobcentre plus that has rolled out universal credit says her biggest issue is the single recipient of the benefits.
In the past if there were two recipients of different benefits, they would be paid individually, now it just goes to one of them as a lump sum, which causes issues, this Guardian piece gives a flavor.
Take, for example, the stipulation that the benefit must be paid to a single head of household rather than to individual claimants. While this may reduce administration efforts and complications for the DWP, whose IT systems have already been dogged by universal credit-related glitches, it is also effective in disempowering women.
Access to financial resource is, after all, a key factor in gender inequality and one that has direct implications for child poverty. With women more likely to be out of work or in low-paid employment, a 1950s-esque “head of household” model based on outdated nuclear family units is likely to see men in heterosexual partnerships taking on the breadwinner role, stripping their partners of financial independence and decision-making power.
Given that sanctions can be imposed on a whole household while payments are made to a designated recipient, women are left bearing responsibilities but with few of the rights that should reasonably go along with them. This situation is further worsened for women who find themselves in abusive relationships: by robbing women of access to financial independence and resources, the state essentially awards abusive men another means by which to trap their victims.
She also has other issues with universal credit, such as housing benefit no longer being paid directly to the landlord, and that UC is paid monthly, not fortnightly, some of the people on benefits have no concept of budgeting, fortnightly payments help with budgeting, monthly, less so.
Also, it is well documented that money paid for specific reasons (for example child benefit) gets spent on that specific reason even though money is fungible and could be spent on anything. Having a single payment for everything eliminates that nudge.
Perhaps there should be a presumption that the woman is head of household when there are dependent children?
Reading between the drips of Green's performance and the spin already given to the Beeb it looks as if Theresa is going to tell some hard truths to her party today. They are clearly not good enough, they let her down and its all their fault that the election did not go to plan. She might even acknowledge being fractionally less than perfect herself.
Asking a party to shape up when the debate is whether she should ship out would be brave. In a strictly Yes Minister sense of course.
From the Guardian:
"Johnson, whose speech won a short standing ovation from grassroots delegates but was only attended by one cabinet member, Michael Gove, mocked the buoyant mood of Labour and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn."
Is this correct? Patel and Fallon spoke immediately before Boris. Did they just leave before his speech?
Reading between the drips of Green's performance and the spin already given to the Beeb it looks as if Theresa is going to tell some hard truths to her party today. They are clearly not good enough, they let her down and its all their fault that the election did not go to plan. She might even acknowledge being fractionally less than perfect herself.
Asking a party to shape up when the debate is whether she should ship out would be brave. In a strictly Yes Minister sense of course.
"Nasty Party" speech redux?
Yes, that's what I thought. Also her speeches to the Police Federation. All her best speeches throughout her career have been when she is being rude to her audience. It might be worth reflecting on that.
Just heard an interesting piece on 'shy Tories' and 'shy Brexiteers'. Thanks to social media it seems that many under 50's are too embarrassed to admit to being Tory voters and and even more so at having voted 'Leave'. I was pleased to hear it. With very few exeptions I loathe the values of those who voted 'Leave'. Less so voting Tory. To hear they at least have an understanding that their prejudices aren't widely shared by their contempories is some relief
My friend who works at a Jobcentre plus that has rolled out universal credit says her biggest issue is the single recipient of the benefits.
In the past if there were two recipients of different benefits, they would be paid individually, now it just goes to one of them as a lump sum, which causes issues, this Guardian piece gives a flavor.
Take, for example, the stipulation that the benefit must be paid to a single head of household rather than to individual claimants. While this may reduce administration efforts and complications for the DWP, whose IT systems have already been dogged by universal credit-related glitches, it is also effective in disempowering women.
Access to financial resource is, after all, a key factor in gender inequality and one that has direct implications for child poverty. With women more likely to be out of work or in low-paid employment, a 1950s-esque “head of household” model based on outdated nuclear family units is likely to see men in heterosexual partnerships taking on the breadwinner role, stripping their partners of financial independence and decision-making power.
Given that sanctions can be imposed on a whole household while payments are made to a designated recipient, women are left bearing responsibilities but with few of the rights that should reasonably go along with them. This situation is further worsened for women who find themselves in abusive relationships: by robbing women of access to financial independence and resources, the state essentially awards abusive men another means by which to trap their victims.
She also has other issues with universal credit, such as housing benefit no longer being paid directly to the landlord, and that UC is paid monthly, not fortnightly, some of the people on benefits have no concept of budgeting, fortnightly payments help with budgeting, monthly, less so.
Also, it is well documented that money paid for specific reasons (for example child benefit) gets spent on that specific reason even though money is fungible and could be spent on anything. Having a single payment for everything eliminates that nudge.
Perhaps there should be a presumption that the woman is head of household when there are dependent children?
I believe that has long been the case for Child Benefit.
Reading between the drips of Green's performance and the spin already given to the Beeb it looks as if Theresa is going to tell some hard truths to her party today. They are clearly not good enough, they let her down and its all their fault that the election did not go to plan. She might even acknowledge being fractionally less than perfect herself.
Asking a party to shape up when the debate is whether she should ship out would be brave. In a strictly Yes Minister sense of course.
From the Guardian:
"Johnson, whose speech won a short standing ovation from grassroots delegates but was only attended by one cabinet member, Michael Gove, mocked the buoyant mood of Labour and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn."
Is this correct? Patel and Fallon spoke immediately before Boris. Did they just leave before his speech?
Not watching that closely I'm afraid. He at least had a full hall, possibly for the first time this week.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Just heard an interesting piece on 'shy Tories' and 'shy Brexiteers'. Thanks to social media it seems that many under 50's are too embarrassed to admit to being Tory voters and and even more so at having voted 'Leave'. I was pleased to hear it. With very few exeptions I loathe the values of those who voted 'Leave'. Less so voting Tory. To hear they at least have an understanding that their prejudices aren't widely shared by their contempories is some relief
Wow this is so utterly contemptible.
You're proud of the fact that you and people like you are so mean and without compassion that others have to hide what they think? I have many friends on both sides of all sorts of political divides and I would never expect them to hide that.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
Just heard an interesting piece on 'shy Tories' and 'shy Brexiteers'. Thanks to social media it seems that many under 50's are too embarrassed to admit to being Tory voters and and even more so at having voted 'Leave'. I was pleased to hear it. With very few exeptions I loathe the values of those who voted 'Leave'. Less so voting Tory. To hear they at least have an understanding that their prejudices aren't widely shared by their contempories is some relief
"it seems that many under 50's are too embarrassed to admit to being Tory voters"
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
Sounds like the Catalan government are hoping for international backing for secession, and they're not getting it. Too many of the big players in the game have got potential problems of their own. Looks like they are quite happy with the Spanish government coming down hard, or very hard on the Catalans. Personally, I think that a holiday in Barcelona is may be not a good idea for the near future..
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
You lot?
We have an astonishingly weak and incompetent PM who has shown consistently bad judgment in charge of some of the more important matters since 1975. It is hardly surprising people are casting around for an alternative both within the party and without. Its Labour's fault and the country's misfortune that they have not offered one.
Just heard an interesting piece on 'shy Tories' and 'shy Brexiteers'. Thanks to social media it seems that many under 50's are too embarrassed to admit to being Tory voters and and even more so at having voted 'Leave'. I was pleased to hear it. With very few exeptions I loathe the values of those who voted 'Leave'. Less so voting Tory. To hear they at least have an understanding that their prejudices aren't widely shared by their contempories is some relief
Wow this is so utterly contemptible.
You're proud of the fact that you and people like you are so mean and without compassion that others have to hide what they think? I have many friends on both sides of all sorts of political divides and I would never expect them to hide that.
Yep, that's the other side of the story. There's little point in trying to interact with many people on the 'net on political matters, especially when they are friends, colleagues and acquaintances.
My friend who works at a Jobcentre plus that has rolled out universal credit says her biggest issue is the single recipient of the benefits.
In the past if there were two recipients of different benefits, they would be paid individually, now it just goes to one of them as a lump sum, which causes issues, this Guardian piece gives a flavor.
Take, for example, the stipulation that the benefit must be paid to a single head of household rather than to individual claimants. While this may reduce administration efforts and complications for the DWP, whose IT systems have already been dogged by universal credit-related glitches, it is also effective in disempowering women.
Access to financial resource is, after all, a key factor in gender inequality and one that has direct implications for child poverty. With women more likely to be out of work or in low-paid employment, a 1950s-esque “head of household” model based on outdated nuclear family units is likely to see men in heterosexual partnerships taking on the breadwinner role, stripping their partners of financial independence and decision-making power.
Given that sanctions can be imposed on a whole household while payments are made to a designated recipient, women are left bearing responsibilities but with few of the rights that should reasonably go along with them. This situation is further worsened for women who find themselves in abusive relationships: by robbing women of access to financial independence and resources, the state essentially awards abusive men another means by which to trap their victims.
She also has other issues with universal credit, such as housing benefit no longer being paid directly to the landlord, and that UC is paid monthly, not fortnightly, some of the people on benefits have no concept of budgeting, fortnightly payments help with budgeting, monthly, less so.
Also, it is well documented that money paid for specific reasons (for example child benefit) gets spent on that specific reason even though money is fungible and could be spent on anything. Having a single payment for everything eliminates that nudge.
Perhaps there should be a presumption that the woman is head of household when there are dependent children?
I believe that has long been the case for Child Benefit.
Ahem. Why should there be such a presumption when increasing numbers of men are staying at home to look after children as wives work?
Sounds like the Catalan government are hoping for international backing for secession, and they're not getting it. Too many of the big players in the game have got potential problems of their own. Looks like they are quite happy with the Spanish government coming down hard, or very hard on the Catalans. Personally, I think that a holiday in Barcelona is may be not a good idea for the near future..
According to friends in Barcelona and other parts of Catalonia, unless you are actually caught up in a demo you would not know anything was going on. TV pictures and social media can - shock, horror - give a distorted view. However, should UDI happen and Madrid take direct control, things will undoubtedly escalate. The only way out of the stalemate that I can see is if there is a change in government in Madrid or Barcelona. Both are very unlikely as things stand. Stalemate suits everyone except the separatists, so clearly they will be looking for ways to provoke further Spanish state violence. Thus, the sensible thing for Madrid to do is avoid violence at all costs. But we are talking about the PP here.
Mr. Roger, it isn't a good thing for people to feel unable to be honest about voting for the party of government because they'll be lambasted as heretics on social media.
Er, has anybody mentioned the New Fresh New People's New Party which is going to sweep everything before it and rescue the nation? It has the backing of the person who came 4th in the UKIP leadership election, so it's bound to succeed:
Sounds like the Catalan government are hoping for international backing for secession, and they're not getting it. Too many of the big players in the game have got potential problems of their own. Looks like they are quite happy with the Spanish government coming down hard, or very hard on the Catalans. Personally, I think that a holiday in Barcelona is may be not a good idea for the near future..
According to friends in Barcelona and other parts of Catalonia, unless you are actually caught up in a demo you would not know anything was going on. TV pictures and social media can - shock, horror - give a distorted view. However, should UDI happen and Madrid take direct control, things will undoubtedly escalate. The only way out of the stalemate that I can see is if there is a change in government in Madrid or Barcelona. Both are very unlikely as things stand. Stalemate suits everyone except the separatists, so clearly they will be looking for ways to provoke further Spanish state violence. Thus, the sensible thing for Madrid to do is avoid violence at all costs. But we are talking about the PP here.
The PP seem to be relishing the idea of dissolving the Catalan government and putting troops on the street.
Their actions have managed to completely turn me round on the idea of Catalan independence.
Sounds like the Catalan government are hoping for international backing for secession, and they're not getting it. Too many of the big players in the game have got potential problems of their own. Looks like they are quite happy with the Spanish government coming down hard, or very hard on the Catalans. Personally, I think that a holiday in Barcelona is may be not a good idea for the near future..
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
You lot?
We have an astonishingly weak and incompetent PM who has shown consistently bad judgment in charge of some of the more important matters since 1975. It is hardly surprising people are casting around for an alternative both within the party and without. Its Labour's fault and the country's misfortune that they have not offered one.
I partly agree, certainly about May, but I don't see how its Labour's fault and this is my very point that Conservatives are incapable of addressing. If Corbyn's ideals are as bonkers as everybody knows, why is his popularity growing and why is the Conservative Party unable to explain why?
My own view is Conservatives spend all their time talking to each other without any interest in understanding how others feel. They are no longer a party with any point beyond power.
Er, has anybody mentioned the New Fresh New People's New Party which is going to sweep everything before it and rescue the nation? It has the backing of the person who came 4th in the UKIP leadership election, so it's bound to succeed:
Re the Tories: Because of Brexit they have lost their reputation as being the party of stability and common sense. They don't have a radical vision that attracts people, particularly young people, to their cause. Market economics is working against them because it has just led to concentrations of wealth amongst an ever diminishing demographic, and this was epitomised by the post 2010 era.
May tried and hopelessly failed to address these problems.
I think that they do need a Boris or a JRM. I think it is worth the roll of the dice. They need someone with vision.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
People have explained why they don't like Corbyn, they've done it to death, it just didn't sway enough people.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
People have explained why they don't like Corbyn, they've done it to death, it just didn't sway enough people.
I disagree, explaining why you don't like him (the tribalists do it all day) is one thing, explaining with clarity why his plans are bonkers is another. There is nobody, either on here or in govt that can address people and say:
"Corbyn is a well meaning man, but let me explain why his plans can't and won't work."
In the meantime the young and silly will continue to follow him and the govt will continue to look like headless chickens.
My friend who works at a Jobcentre plus that has rolled out universal credit says her biggest issue is the single recipient of the benefits.
In the past if there were two recipients of different benefits, they would be paid individually, now it just goes to one of them as a lump sum, which causes issues, this Guardian piece gives a flavor.
Take, for example, the stipulation that the benefit must be paid to a single head of household rather than to individual claimants. While this may reduce administration efforts and complications for the DWP, whose IT systems have already been dogged by universal credit-related glitches, it is also effective in disempowering women.
Given that sanctions can be imposed on a whole household while payments are made to a designated recipient, women are left bearing responsibilities but with few of the rights that should reasonably go along with them. This situation is further worsened for women who find themselves in abusive relationships: by robbing women of access to financial independence and resources, the state essentially awards abusive men another means by which to trap their victims.
She also has other issues with universal credit, such as housing benefit no longer being paid directly to the landlord, and that UC is paid monthly, not fortnightly, some of the people on benefits have no concept of budgeting, fortnightly payments help with budgeting, monthly, less so.
Also, it is well documented that money paid for specific reasons (for example child benefit) gets spent on that specific reason even though money is fungible and could be spent on anything. Having a single payment for everything eliminates that nudge.
Perhaps there should be a presumption that the woman is head of household when there are dependent children?
I believe that has long been the case for Child Benefit.
Ahem. Why should there be such a presumption when increasing numbers of men are staying at home to look after children as wives work?
Me, included (though we get few benefits).
I agree, but Child Benefit goes to the mother by default I believe. UC shifts that.
Sounds like the Catalan government are hoping for international backing for secession, and they're not getting it. Too many of the big players in the game have got potential problems of their own. Looks like they are quite happy with the Spanish government coming down hard, or very hard on the Catalans. Personally, I think that a holiday in Barcelona is may be not a good idea for the near future..
According to friends in Barcelona and other parts of Catalonia, unless you are actually caught up in a demo you would not know anything was going on. TV pictures and social media can - shock, horror - give a distorted view. However, should UDI happen and Madrid take direct control, things will undoubtedly escalate. The only way out of the stalemate that I can see is if there is a change in government in Madrid or Barcelona. Both are very unlikely as things stand. Stalemate suits everyone except the separatists, so clearly they will be looking for ways to provoke further Spanish state violence. Thus, the sensible thing for Madrid to do is avoid violence at all costs. But we are talking about the PP here.
But who will blink first? Most people, wherever, don't really care who is in government so long as the bins are emptied regularly. But, put a Spanish sense of honour into the mix and it could end up being messy, and very bloody.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
You lot?
We have an astonishingly weak and incompetent PM who has shown consistently bad judgment in charge of some of the more important matters since 1975. It is hardly surprising people are casting around for an alternative both within the party and without. Its Labour's fault and the country's misfortune that they have not offered one.
I partly agree, certainly about May, but I don't see how its Labour's fault and this is my very point that Conservatives are incapable of addressing. If Corbyn's ideals are as bonkers as everybody knows, why is his popularity growing and why is the Conservative Party unable to explain why?
My own view is Conservatives spend all their time talking to each other without any interest in understanding how others feel. They are no longer a party with any point beyond power.
Labour could never offer an alternative strategy, because there is no such thing.
Brexit is such an impossible mess that there was no possible way of Labour leading the country through the car crash created by Camerons referendum. They would have been obliterated by the tories in opposition and the right wing press and public opinion generally.
The 2017 election is strategically the perfect outcome for Labour (or at least those within the party who support the leadership) and a fatal existential blow for the conservatives.
For the country as a whole, however, it is a complete disaster. The Tories cannot deliver the Brexit they want, which ultimately creates massive uncertainty about the whole thing. There is a realistic likelihood that Corbyn will be the next prime minister.
Re the Tories: Because of Brexit they have lost their reputation as being the party of stability and common sense. They don't have a radical vision that attracts people, particularly young people, to their cause. Market economics is working against them because it has just led to concentrations of wealth amongst an ever diminishing demographic, and this was epitomised by the post 2010 era.
May tried and hopelessly failed to address these problems.
I think that they do need a Boris or a JRM. I think it is worth the roll of the dice. They need someone with vision.
Priti set out he stall, and spoke of "my leadership..." in her speech yesterday, and called for a bonfire of regulations at a fringe meeting. Sounds like on manoeuvres to me.
With BoJo lacking support amongst MP's, JRM on the backbenches and seeming not to be interested, Gove a little bit too treacherous, Fox has had his go, I can see Priti getting the right wing nomination. Not sure who would be the other option for the final two.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
You lot?
We have an astonishingly weak and incompetent PM who has shown consistently bad judgment in charge of some of the more important matters since 1975. It is hardly surprising people are casting around for an alternative both within the party and without. Its Labour's fault and the country's misfortune that they have not offered one.
I partly agree, certainly about May, but I don't see how its Labour's fault and this is my very point that Conservatives are incapable of addressing. If Corbyn's ideals are as bonkers as everybody knows, why is his popularity growing and why is the Conservative Party unable to explain why?
My own view is Conservatives spend all their time talking to each other without any interest in understanding how others feel. They are no longer a party with any point beyond power.
Labour could never offer an alternative strategy, because there is no such thing.
Brexit is such an impossible mess that there was no possible way of Labour leading the country through the car crash created by Camerons referendum. They would have been obliterated by the tories in opposition and the right wing press and public opinion generally.
The 2017 election is strategically the perfect outcome for Labour (or at least those within the party who support the leadership) and a fatal existential blow for the conservatives.
For the country as a whole, however, it is a complete disaster. The Tories cannot deliver the Brexit they want, which ultimately creates massive uncertainty about the whole thing. There is a realistic likelihood that Corbyn will be the next prime minister.
I think we're at cross purposes here. The tories can't deliver Brexit they want because they don't have a clue what they want.
Your last line is correct because of my previous statement, I've asked on here numerous times what this govt stands for, I never get an answer.
Re the Tories: Because of Brexit they have lost their reputation as being the party of stability and common sense. They don't have a radical vision that attracts people, particularly young people, to their cause. Market economics is working against them because it has just led to concentrations of wealth amongst an ever diminishing demographic, and this was epitomised by the post 2010 era.
May tried and hopelessly failed to address these problems.
I think that they do need a Boris or a JRM. I think it is worth the roll of the dice. They need someone with vision.
Priti set out he stall, and spoke of "my leadership..." in her speech yesterday, and called for a bonfire of regulations at a fringe meeting. Sounds like on manoeuvres to me.
With BoJo lacking support amongst MP's, JRM on the backbenches and seeming not to be interested, Gove a little bit too treacherous, Fox has had his go, I can see Priti getting the right wing nomination. Not sure who would be the other option for the final two.
If Patel was leader I'd consider voting tory for the first time since Michael Howard. I'd prefer JRM though.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
If that's the case why is his popularity growing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
You lot?
We have an astonishingly weak and incompetent PM who has shown consistently bad judgment in charge of some of the more important matters since 1975. It is hardly surprising people are casting around for an alternative both within the party and without. Its Labour's fault and the country's misfortune that they have not offered one.
I partly agree, certainly about May, but I don't see how its Labour's fault and this is my very point that Conservatives are incapable of addressing. If Corbyn's ideals are as bonkers as everybody knows, why is his popularity growing and why is the Conservative Party unable to explain why?
My own view is Conservatives spend all their time talking to each other without any interest in understanding how others feel. They are no longer a party with any point beyond power.
Labour could never offer an alternative strategy, because there is no such thing.
Brexit is such an impossible mess that
I think we're at cross purposes here. The tories can't deliver Brexit they want because they don't have a clue what they want.
Your last line is correct because of my previous statement, I've asked on here numerous times what this govt stands for, I never get an answer.
Ho hum.
I agree. May junking her own "winning" manifesto and adopting wholesale a large part of Labours Manifesto is a fairly unprededented admission that Labour won the arguments.
An end to the public sector pay cap No dementia tax massive council house building Action on student fees Brexit with a prolonged transition period while we figure out what we want*
So not a bad outcome for us centrists. Labour policies with a smidgen more financial sanity.
Re the Tories: Because of Brexit they have lost their reputation as being the party of stability and common sense. They don't have a radical vision that attracts people, particularly young people, to their cause. Market economics is working against them because it has just led to concentrations of wealth amongst an ever diminishing demographic, and this was epitomised by the post 2010 era.
May tried and hopelessly failed to address these problems.
I think that they do need a Boris or a JRM. I think it is worth the roll of the dice. They need someone with vision.
Priti set out he stall, and spoke of "my leadership..." in her speech yesterday, and called for a bonfire of regulations at a fringe meeting. Sounds like on manoeuvres to me.
With BoJo lacking support amongst MP's, JRM on the backbenches and seeming not to be interested, Gove a little bit too treacherous, Fox has had his go, I can see Priti getting the right wing nomination. Not sure who would be the other option for the final two.
I put a couple of quid on Priti Patel at 30/1 a few weeks ago. Also Gove.
She is pretty horrendous and momentum would have a great time with her. As far as I can work out, her only job outside of politics was working for a PR company (and was involved in some tobacco lobbying scandal), and then she wrote an economic treatise saying that British workers are lazy. So she just sounds like a bit of tool.
I read on Richard Angells facebook feed that she also went to lots of meetings in the run up to the referendum promising ethnic minorities that they could bring in their aunties and uncles after Brexit, which if substantiated could be a problem for her.
I think she would turn out to be a flake and crash and burn in the limelight, in the same way as TMay.
Who could have predicted a year ago that Corbyn would be running rings round the Conservatives?
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Oh I don't know. One led by Corbyn would be an obvious example.
.
You lot?
.
r.
Labour could never offer an alternative strategy, because there is no such thing.
Brexit is such an impossible mess that there was no possible way of Labour leading the country through the car crash created by Camerons referendum. They would have been obliterated by the tories in opposition and the right wing press and public opinion generally.
The 2017 election is strategically the perfect outcome for Labour (or at least those within the party who support the leadership) and a fatal existential blow for the conservatives.
For the country as a whole, however, it is a complete disaster. The Tories cannot deliver the Brexit they want, which ultimately creates massive uncertainty about the whole thing. There is a realistic likelihood that Corbyn will be the next prime minister.
I think we're at cross purposes here. The tories can't deliver Brexit they want because they don't have a clue what they want.
Your last line is correct because of my previous statement, I've asked on here numerous times what this govt stands for, I never get an answer.
Ho hum.
Its pretty obvious to me what the tories wanted. May wanted to face down the EU with lots of threats about security and economics and for the country to get behind her, in order to get to a situation where we benefit from the access to the single market without being burdened by its rules, without accepting free movement, without ECJ and without paying anything in to it; and at the same time being able to trade freely with the rest of the world.
The EU read that - correctly - as the UK trying to undermine its entire purpose, so we now end up with a stalemate and the EU holding all the cards, and May looking weak and pathetic and her threats sounding like a hollow joke.
Re the Tories: Because of Brexit they have lost their reputation as being the party of stability and common sense. They don't have a radical vision that attracts people, particularly young people, to their cause. Market economics is working against them because it has just led to concentrations of wealth amongst an ever diminishing demographic, and this was epitomised by the post 2010 era.
May tried and hopelessly failed to address these problems.
I think that they do need a Boris or a JRM. I think it is worth the roll of the dice. They need someone with vision.
Priti set out he stall, and spoke of "my leadership..." in her speech yesterday, and called for a bonfire of regulations at a fringe meeting. Sounds like on manoeuvres to me.
With BoJo lacking support amongst MP's, JRM on the backbenches and seeming not to be interested, Gove a little bit too treacherous, Fox has had his go, I can see Priti getting the right wing nomination. Not sure who would be the other option for the final two.
I put a couple of quid on Priti Patel at 30/1 a few weeks ago. Also Gove.
She is pretty horrendous and momentum would have a great time with her. As far as I can work out, her only job outside of politics was working for a PR company (and was involved in some tobacco lobbying scandal), and then she wrote an economic treatise saying that British workers are lazy. So she just sounds like a bit of tool.
I read on Richard Angells facebook feed that she also went to lots of meetings in the run up to the referendum promising ethnic minorities that they could bring in their aunties and uncles after Brexit, which if substantiated could be a problem for her.
I think she would turn out to be a flake and crash and burn in the limelight, in the same way as TMay.
I went to a Leave event at Leicester Masonic Hall in the Brexit campaign with Priti speaking.
It was an interesting mix in the audience of country set, a few very odd UKIPy students, and a few other interested parties. She spoke well, and was well drilled, being excellent at dodging the questions. She answered to a Sikh guy about equality vs EU migrants, but in such vague terms that it kept the anti migrant part of the audience quiet, by implying equally bad access.
I think she is too rehearsed to have made many gaffes, but I did come away with the feeling that she was ambitious enough to be deceptive. She spoke well without saying much, as she did yesterday.
The East Midlands Chamber of Commerce speaker was much more informed on the detail, a bit like @Rchard_Tyndall, right wing but well read.
Comments
That being the case, a vote which they said could lead to a UDI was presumably also an option to try to force Madrid to concede ground, if it had gone ahead peacefully, a 'you can disbar us, but until you give us a legal vote, this will keep happening scenario' but the violent reaction has both emboldened the separatists and somewhat pushed them toward a UDI even if it had been intended only as a threat.
If they do it they seemingly have no power to enforce it, and no one of substance will recognise it, so best case scenario we're looking at a civil disobedience campaign as Madrid assumes direct control, and then eventually a new settlement to return autonomy when Madrid realises they cannot keep direct control forever like that, and the separatists, or enough of them, accept that in exchange for not continuing to claim their UDI?
Pure speculation of course. I still have difficulty believing they will UDI until they actually do it. It's probably how Charles I felt when the commissioners for the High Court of Justice met to determine his fate.
If they are equivalent in Spain.
Whilst people in this country shake their heads at supposed police brutality and the PR implications, they clearly don't get how willing Madrid is to dig a trench and fight this out. Whilst all the public running had been made by Catalan separatists, it will be a different situation if it comes to a proper confrontation. Madrid is willing to take it to a fairly high limit, I'm not sure if enough of the separatists are.
https://twitter.com/Sunil_P2/status/876894066478329857
It isn't an analogy at all - just a brief thought - but I do begin to wonder if inter-governmental rules on things like, inter alia, landing aeroplanes and clearing funds have got a bit out of hand. They threaten to stifle as much progress as they stimulate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMKURiCcUNI
He's still got it...
Scrapping Trident up next!
Remember the golden rule - that which the Remainer thinks is positive for their cause, turns out to be entirel the opposite.
History does show us that sheer determination can sometimes be the decider, even when those people are seemingly outnumbered by their foes, but you do still need power to bear, and do the Catalan separatists have enough of it?
I hope he means work week - a UDI/central government takeover is no reason to work on the weekend.
https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/03/michael-gove-made-a-pigs-ear-of-it-over-eu-animal-rules-say-farmers
It seems that, like with our hipsters, tattoos can be in place of piercings.
Given the high-handedness and propensity to small level violence of the Spanish state, it strikes me that the Catalans could easily adapt the passive, non-violent tactics of the Freedom Riders in order to elicit further violence from the Spanish state over a sufficiently prolonged period that even the EU won't be able to ignore it.
That does take sufficient numbers of unbelievably brave people to risk their lives (and almost certain imprisonment). At one point, Mississippi's tactic was to jail all the Freedom Riders. So the adaptation of strategy was to flood the system with Freedom Riders so the jails would fill to overflowing. At one point, there were over 450 of them in prison in Mississippi.
I'm still here. (Well have just got back from Canada and have not adjusted yet to a UK time zone.)
Re the Freedom Riders, I've been watching "Eyes on the Prize" - a superb US documentary on the Civil Rights years. Just got to Episode 3. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=neDpuJVc4Ko. Well worth your time.
Re Catalonia: If - God forbid - there were to be another terrorist atrocity, I wonder how welcome Rajoy and the King would be.
Are you around in the latter part of November. I am going to be in the UK for a couple of weeks and would be great to meet up in person.
http://reboot2020.com/about-us.php
Cigs to be pushed to 10 euros a packet in France, demos underway
http://www.lefigaro.fr/social/2017/10/04/20011-20171004ARTFIG00036-les-buralistes-manifestent-contre-le-paquet-a-10-euros.php
F1: Kubica to test for Williams:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41483083
Mr. L, I believe it's because he's the new crutch/old friend for the PM. I agree entirely on his sopping wet status.
Asking a party to shape up when the debate is whether she should ship out would be brave. In a strictly Yes Minister sense of course.
"Johnson, whose speech won a short standing ovation from grassroots delegates but was only attended by one cabinet member, Michael Gove, mocked the buoyant mood of Labour and its leader, Jeremy Corbyn."
Is this correct? Patel and Fallon spoke immediately before Boris. Did they just leave before his speech?
I was pleased to hear it. With very few exeptions I loathe the values of those who voted 'Leave'. Less so voting Tory. To hear they at least have an understanding that their prejudices aren't widely shared by their contempories is some relief
May's response? Build more council houses, fiddle with tuition fees and scrap the public sector pay cap.
Corbyn is well and truly setting the agenda and the tories are utterly clueless how to respond. Its hilarious and pitiful in equal measure, a more insipid and useless govt is hard to imagine.
You're proud of the fact that you and people like you are so mean and without compassion that others have to hide what they think? I have many friends on both sides of all sorts of political divides and I would never expect them to hide that.
You cannot be serious - is this a new thing?
You lot really need to wake up and get out of your echo chamber, saying Corbyn is dangerous without explaining why just won't work. It should be simple but there is nobody in govt capable of doing it.
We have an astonishingly weak and incompetent PM who has shown consistently bad judgment in charge of some of the more important matters since 1975. It is hardly surprising people are casting around for an alternative both within the party and without. Its Labour's fault and the country's misfortune that they have not offered one.
Me, included (though we get few benefits).
Also this lot
Their actions have managed to completely turn me round on the idea of Catalan independence.
My own view is Conservatives spend all their time talking to each other without any interest in understanding how others feel. They are no longer a party with any point beyond power.
May tried and hopelessly failed to address these problems.
I think that they do need a Boris or a JRM. I think it is worth the roll of the dice. They need someone with vision.
"Corbyn is a well meaning man, but let me explain why his plans can't and won't work."
In the meantime the young and silly will continue to follow him and the govt will continue to look like headless chickens.
Brexit is such an impossible mess that there was no possible way of Labour leading the country through the car crash created by Camerons referendum. They would have been obliterated by the tories in opposition and the right wing press and public opinion generally.
The 2017 election is strategically the perfect outcome for Labour (or at least those within the party who support the leadership) and a fatal existential blow for the conservatives.
For the country as a whole, however, it is a complete disaster. The Tories cannot deliver the Brexit they want, which ultimately creates massive uncertainty about the whole thing. There is a realistic likelihood that Corbyn will be the next prime minister.
With BoJo lacking support amongst MP's, JRM on the backbenches and seeming not to be interested, Gove a little bit too treacherous, Fox has had his go, I can see Priti getting the right wing nomination. Not sure who would be the other option for the final two.
Your last line is correct because of my previous statement, I've asked on here numerous times what this govt stands for, I never get an answer.
Ho hum.
An end to the public sector pay cap
No dementia tax
massive council house building
Action on student fees
Brexit with a prolonged transition period while we figure out what we want*
So not a bad outcome for us centrists. Labour policies with a smidgen more financial sanity.
*not that this is on offer!
She is pretty horrendous and momentum would have a great time with her. As far as I can work out, her only job outside of politics was working for a PR company (and was involved in some tobacco lobbying scandal), and then she wrote an economic treatise saying that British workers are lazy. So she just sounds like a bit of tool.
I read on Richard Angells facebook feed that she also went to lots of meetings in the run up to the referendum promising ethnic minorities that they could bring in their aunties and uncles after Brexit, which if substantiated could be a problem for her.
I think she would turn out to be a flake and crash and burn in the limelight, in the same way as TMay.
If you consider yourself to be a centrist, whatever that is, you should be very wary of Corbyn.
I'm ambivalent about the whole thing, Corbyn and his disciples are enjoying their days in the sun but it'll end badly, it always does with socialists.
May wanted to face down the EU with lots of threats about security and economics and for the country to get behind her, in order to get to a situation where we benefit from the access to the single market without being burdened by its rules, without accepting free movement, without ECJ and without paying anything in to it; and at the same time being able to trade freely with the rest of the world.
The EU read that - correctly - as the UK trying to undermine its entire purpose, so we now end up with a stalemate and the EU holding all the cards, and May looking weak and pathetic and her threats sounding like a hollow joke.
It was an interesting mix in the audience of country set, a few very odd UKIPy students, and a few other interested parties. She spoke well, and was well drilled, being excellent at dodging the questions. She answered to a Sikh guy about equality vs EU migrants, but in such vague terms that it kept the anti migrant part of the audience quiet, by implying equally bad access.
I think she is too rehearsed to have made many gaffes, but I did come away with the feeling that she was ambitious enough to be deceptive. She spoke well without saying much, as she did yesterday.
The East Midlands Chamber of Commerce speaker was much more informed on the detail, a bit like @Rchard_Tyndall, right wing but well read.
Nonetheless, a Corbyn government would suit me better than the current shower.