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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited October 2017

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
  • NonreglaNonregla Posts: 35
    edited October 2017

    Nonregla said:

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    What's the scenario? Exit from the EU in that month is highly unlikely, so she'll fall then or what?

    Personally I doubt she'll make it to then.
    Probably late 2019 or early 2020. She is not going anywhere before then
    I wouldn't bet on a year and a half or two years of stability at the top in such volatile conditions. A peaceful announcement in 2019 of a "deal" leading to a British exit from the EU on conditions happily agreed to by nearly 30 players is extremely unlikely. And it's not even as if Britain would have any automatic "rights" under the WTO where trade with rEU was concerned. There is no fallback.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    JonathanD said:

    Reducing this to some sort of 'lol Rudd doesn't understand encryption' argument is just juvenile.

    Rudd understands enough. She wants to avoid the government mandating a backdoor, and would prefer Google, Apple, and Facebook to do the dirty work for her. So that she can say "we haven't banned anything, the service providers are merely cooperating with the security services".

    I do believe that if the companies concerned cave in to the UK government it will be very hard for them to say no to similar requests from other governments. After which we will all be a lot worse off as security of messaging services is substantially diminished.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
  • Nonregla said:

    Nonregla said:

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    What's the scenario? Exit from the EU in that month is highly unlikely, so she'll fall then or what?

    Personally I doubt she'll make it to then.
    Probably late 2019 or early 2020. She is not going anywhere before then
    I wouldn't bet on a year and half or two years of stability at the top in such volatile conditions.
    The real issue is there is no one else. Theresa, for all her faults, ( and she has many) is determined and a serious politician and it buys time for a successor to emerge. Remember Corbyn was an unknown 2 and a half years ago
  • Mortimer said:

    @DecrepitJohnL - JRM is probably May's most vocal supporter.

    He could be her Willie.

    Getting JRM into the cabinet is a must.

    You really do hate the Tory party don’t you.

    Because having sycophants around Mrs May helped in June.

    Yu may like or dislike JRM but he is no sycophant.

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    CD13 said:

    Mrs May had always been a poor speaker and interviewee. I said so on here when the fans were having orgasms about what was a mediocre performance at her first PMQs. Unfortunately, it's what politicians are judged on.

    Jezza was very poor at first, but he improved with practice, something our current PM has not done. "She ain't no politician bruv".

    Lady Nugee I put in the same bracket as George. No matter what they say, the smarminess comes across strongly.

    +1
    +2
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    Nonregla said:

    Nonregla said:

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    What's the scenario? Exit from the EU in that month is highly unlikely, so she'll fall then or what?

    Personally I doubt she'll make it to then.
    Probably late 2019 or early 2020. She is not going anywhere before then
    I wouldn't bet on a year and half or two years of stability at the top in such volatile conditions.
    No. At some point in the next year the government is going to have to decide whether to crash out of the EU without a deal or accept a "transition" arrangement on the EU's terms - ECJ, budget contributions, free movement, the whole thing, but without any say in the political structure. Either of these scenarios are likely to lead to the fall of the government.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    I see Farage is blaming the EU for Catalonia. I really can't work this out except his mental process is now so warped that everything has to be the fault of Brussels.
  • Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    eek said:

    JonathanD said:

    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    OchEye said:

    Just found this on The Reg concerning Rudd, and, like this mighty organ, it is the comments which are even more interesting : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/03/amber_rudd_still_does_not_understand_encryption/

    LOL, she really doesn’t understand encryption at all - she clearly thinks it’s something that only terrorists and criminals are using, rather than a massive enabler of online commerce and messaging. She does seem to seriously think that legislation can ban mathematics and computing power.

    Some brilliant comments under that article from the tech community, who have of course been saying the same to several Home Secretaries over the years.
    What Rudd wants is the for the service providers to "backdoor" their own apps and services, so that the government can avoid mandating a backdoor or trying to regulate encryption. Which would look bad, and ultimately be ineffective.

    The real problem is that if the likes of WhatsApp add some sort of capability to fetch retained messages from a device for the UK government, so that technically the message transport is still encrypted from end-to-end, they are likely to have to do something similar for other governments, or else. Indeed China is currently interfering with the use of WhatsApp as it shares similar views to our government about such services..

    So the end point of the government's brilliant idea is likely to be a severe weakening of the security of messaging services, with them riddled with "lawful access" capabilities for governments. Bad guys will use non-compliant apps and services, and where necessary tunnel through the compliant services. That almost certainly happens today unless the bad guys are particularly dim.
    Of course, there are no perfect solutions. Foreign governments will do what they want - we can't stop them and bad actors will implement works arounds. However, the security services view will be that implementing this will reduce their workload, speed up their reaction time and allow them to identify those people who believe their communications are dodgy enough to require some form of work around even if they can't immediately read it.



    Reducing this to some sort of 'lol Rudd doesn't understand encryption' argument is just juvenile.
    And anyone who wants to keep things private will move to another product that doesn't have a backdoor.


    Yes, and as I pointed out that will still help the intelligence agencies prioritise targets.

    Encryption has been around for millennia, so its hardly some new genie - its always been a cat and mouse game. Some of the discussion around it is however verging into US style NRA / 2nd Amendment territory.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
  • Nonregla said:

    Nonregla said:

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    What's the scenario? Exit from the EU in that month is highly unlikely, so she'll fall then or what?

    Personally I doubt she'll make it to then.
    Probably late 2019 or early 2020. She is not going anywhere before then
    I wouldn't bet on a year and half or two years of stability at the top in such volatile conditions.
    The real issue is there is no one else. Theresa, for all her faults, ( and she has many) is determined and a serious politician and it buys time for a successor to emerge. Remember Corbyn was an unknown 2 and a half years ago
    From a betting point of view, it's certainly interesting that the price of the next Tory leader being from outside the current top five is about evens.

    If Mogg gets anywhere near the job, the Protestant-Catholic faultline in Britain will open wide.
  • I see Farage is blaming the EU for Catalonia. I really can't work this out except his mental process is now so warped that everything has to be the fault of Brussels.

    He wants to the EU to be *more* involved in the internal affairs of a member state.

    He really is a hypocritical tosspot.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    JonathanD said:

    eek said:

    JonathanD said:

    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    OchEye said:

    What Rudd wants is the for the service providers to "backdoor" their own apps and services, so that the government can avoid mandating a backdoor or trying to regulate encryption. Which would look bad, and ultimately be ineffective.

    The real problem is that if the likes of WhatsApp add some sort of capability to fetch retained messages from a device for the UK government, so that technically the message transport is still encrypted from end-to-end, they are likely to have to do something similar for other governments, or else. Indeed China is currently interfering with the use of WhatsApp as it shares similar views to our government about such services..

    So the end point of the government's brilliant idea is likely to be a severe weakening of the security of messaging services, with them riddled with "lawful access" capabilities for governments. Bad guys will use non-compliant apps and services, and where necessary tunnel through the compliant services. That almost certainly happens today unless the bad guys are particularly dim.
    Of course, there are no perfect solutions. Foreign governments will do what they want - we can't stop them and bad actors will implement works arounds. However, the security services view will be that implementing this will reduce their workload, speed up their reaction time and allow them to identify those people who believe their communications are dodgy enough to require some form of work around even if they can't immediately read it.



    Reducing this to some sort of 'lol Rudd doesn't understand encryption' argument is just juvenile.
    And anyone who wants to keep things private will move to another product that doesn't have a backdoor.


    Yes, and as I pointed out that will still help the intelligence agencies prioritise targets.

    Encryption has been around for millennia, so its hardly some new genie - its always been a cat and mouse game. Some of the discussion around it is however verging into US style NRA / 2nd Amendment territory.
    What, so using Signal rather than WhatsApp will make you a target for intelligence services?

    I’d say that within a few weeks of the backdoor becoming known, half the population would have switched - these things now happen very quickly indeed.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    glw said:

    JonathanD said:

    Reducing this to some sort of 'lol Rudd doesn't understand encryption' argument is just juvenile.

    After which we will all be a lot worse off as security of messaging services is substantially diminished.
    Governments have had the legal right to intercept communications for decades. This is hardly some new horror visited upon us. You are sounding like some Yank worried about the US government prying his Ak-47 from his cold, dead hands.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    I see Farage is blaming the EU for Catalonia. I really can't work this out except his mental process is now so warped that everything has to be the fault of Brussels.

    Isn’t the opposite the case? The EU has been trying to discourage the Catalans from separating.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,545
    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    I've wondered why Stansted is the designated airport: after all, it is fairly far away from Hereford. Is it because you can reach it from the North Sea without overflying massively populated areas? But if that's the case, what about planes coming from the west?
  • I see Farage is blaming the EU for Catalonia. I really can't work this out except his mental process is now so warped that everything has to be the fault of Brussels.

    Even I do not blame the EU for Catalonia. But the Spanish government mishandled the problem and the King poured gasoline on the conflict with his arrogant and crass remarks.

    However, this could become a wider EU problem

    While on the subject of the EU, Luxembourg being fined for tax avoidance/state aid to Amazon while Juncker just continues in his inept role and autocratic role
  • glw said:

    Rudd understands enough. She wants to avoid the government mandating a backdoor, and would prefer Google, Apple, and Facebook to do the dirty work for her. So that she can say "we haven't banned anything, the service providers are merely cooperating with the security services".

    I do believe that if the companies concerned cave in to the UK government it will be very hard for them to say no to similar requests from other governments. After which we will all be a lot worse off as security of messaging services is substantially diminished.

    There is absolutely zero chance of the UK acting unilaterally on this. Any progress on dealing with the problem has to and will involve the US, and probably the EU as well.
  • Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
    But you do not answer the question. Who else during Brexit
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    edited October 2017
    Nonregla said:



    True -- though any voter with a couple of white vans out front is probably not a mere worker but a thrusting entrepreneur who ought to be of interest to the Conservative Party -- and would have been in the Thatcher/Tebbit era.

    They aren't the main contingent in the UKIP vote that went back to Labour. My impression is that many of them do vote Tory and have done for years, since, as you say, the Thatcher-Tebbit era, even if local leaders wouldn't want them coming to party dos and eating peas off their knives, etc. Look for "Help for Heroes" stickers on those vans.

    My white van owning plumber nephew-in-law does. To, I understand, the annoyance of his NHS contractor wife.

    Edit. Typing on autopilot!
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
    But you do not answer the question. Who else during Brexit
    Hammond.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    OchEye said:

    Just found this on The Reg concerning Rudd, and, like this mighty organ, it is the comments which are even more interesting : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/03/amber_rudd_still_does_not_understand_encryption/

    LOL, she really doesn’t understand encryption at all - she clearly thinks it’s something that only terrorists and criminals are using, rather than a massive enabler of online commerce and messaging. She does seem to seriously think that legislation can ban mathematics and computing power.

    Some brilliant comments under that article from the tech community, who have of course been saying the same to several Home Secretaries over the years.
    This quote, if accurate, is astonishing:
    "I do feel that there is a sea of criticism for any of us who try and legislate in new areas, who will automatically be sneered at and laughed at for not getting it right..."

    Surely 'getting it right' is a sine qua non for any legislation ?
    Or perhaps she has picked up the idea of beta testing from the tech industry...
    She’s probably planning to release beta legislation, in the same way that the software industry now thinks it’s okay to use their customers as their QA department.

    Seriously though, the HS (and the previous one, who got a promotion) just doesn't understand the issue at all. The HO really need to have a couple of IT advisors who can give them the other side of GCHQ’s and MI5’s views on encryption.
    Quite.
    I'd be the last to criticise them for lack of technical knowledge, but it's the apparent utter failure to appreciate that there are massive economic considerations which must be weighed against their security concerns that is disturbing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Mortimer said:

    @DecrepitJohnL - JRM is probably May's most vocal supporter.

    He could be her Willie.

    Getting JRM into the cabinet is a must.

    So now you want to sack Willie Whitelaw and promote JRM?

    Madness.

    :smile:
  • Has anyone seen what IDS has said about unmarried men?http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59d3b8f9e4b04b9f92054af5/amp?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

    Meanwhile, I have to say I can’t see what some are seeing in these new generation Tories in regard to the Conservative leadership: Raab, Patel, Kwarteng, Cleverly. Pretty much all of them are Brexiteers and free-marketeers at a time when Brexit isn’t popular with the under 44s and when many people are disillusioned by the current economic consensus. So far, it’s is only Davidson that I have seen really acknowledge this in some detail and actually attempt to set out a Conservative vision which while still capitalist, challenges the flaws of the current system. The other two good options (as mentioned by other PBers yesterday) for the Tories might also be Johnny Mercer and Rory Stewart.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
    That might be the case - but it has been trailed that she is planning to announce a massive council house building program today, which doesn't quite square with the idea of someone getting ready to throw in the towel.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    JonathanD said:

    Governments have had the legal right to intercept communications for decades. This is hardly some new horror visited upon us. You are sounding like some Yank worried about the US government prying his Ak-47 from his cold, dead hands.

    I wouldn't mind if I thought that the security and intelligence services were only going to target "bad guys", but that's not how they operate, they want mass surveillance capabilities. That's how we end up with internet buffers, full take intercept systems, boasts of intercepting all the phone calls in a country, and so on. It's not like any of this is a secret anymore, Snowdon's leaks confirmed things that had long been rumoured.

    Backdoors, lawful intercept, golden keys, it doesn't matter what you call them, they all weaken security, and the get abused and in some cases that abuse is by foreign powers.
  • Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
    But you do not answer the question. Who else during Brexit
    Hammond.
    Hammond has no personality and little support amongst the members.

    Theresa May is trying to balance both sides but also deliver Brexit
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587
    Talk about thought processes being very limited...
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
    But you do not answer the question. Who else during Brexit
    That is the problem we have. None of our current politicians are up to the job.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Alistair said:

    I find flag flying deeply suspicious. The only appropriate locations for flags are outside major government buildings (included in that are all embassies/consulates for ease of location for a stranded foreigner), international sporting venues on the day of a match and the type of ultra expensive hotels that the louche, blootered, super rich stay at to give them a hint at what country they just flew into.

    I think in Finland flying the national flag is actually banned apart from designated national holidays or if you have special permission.

    Nationalism for the most part just leads to war and poverty.
  • RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    edited October 2017
    Sandpit said:

    JonathanD said:

    eek said:

    JonathanD said:

    glw said:

    Sandpit said:

    OchEye said:

    What Rudd wants is the for the service providers to "backdoor" their own apps and services, so that the government can avoid mandating a backdoor or trying to regulate encryption. Which would look bad, and ultimately be ineffective.

    The real problem is that if the likes of WhatsApp add some sort of capability to fetch retained messages from a device for the UK government, so that technically the message transport is still encrypted from end-to-end, they are likely to have to do something similar for other governments, or else. Indeed China is currently interfering with the use of WhatsApp as it shares similar views to our government about such services..

    So the end point of the government's brilliant idea is likely to be a severe weakening of the security of messaging services, with them riddled with "lawful access" capabilities for governments. Bad guys will use non-compliant apps and services, and where necessary tunnel through the compliant services. That almost certainly happens today unless the bad guys are particularly dim.
    Of course, there are no perfect solutions. Foreign governments will do what they want - we can't stop them and bad actors will implement works arounds. However, the security services view will be that implementing this will reduce their workload, speed up their reaction time and allow them to identify those people who believe their communications are dodgy enough to require some form of work around even if they can't immediately read it.



    Reducing this to some sort of 'lol Rudd doesn't understand encryption' argument is just juvenile.
    And anyone who wants to keep things private will move to another product that doesn't have a backdoor.


    Yes, and as I pointed out that will still help the intelligence agencies prioritise targets.

    Encryption has been around for millennia, so its hardly some new genie - its always been a cat and mouse game. Some of the discussion around it is however verging into US style NRA / 2nd Amendment territory.
    What, so using Signal rather than WhatsApp will make you a target for intelligence services?

    I’d say that within a few weeks of the backdoor becoming known, half the population would have switched - these things now happen very quickly indeed.
    It used to be that just visiting the PGP website made you a more interesting person to the NSA.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Has anyone seen what IDS has said about unmarried men?http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59d3b8f9e4b04b9f92054af5/amp?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

    Meanwhile, I have to say I can’t see what some are seeing in these new generation Tories in regard to the Conservative leadership: Raab, Patel, Kwarteng, Cleverly. Pretty much all of them are Brexiteers and free-marketeers at a time when Brexit isn’t popular with the under 44s and when many people are disillusioned by the current economic consensus. So far, it’s is only Davidson that I have seen really acknowledge this in some detail and actually attempt to set out a Conservative vision which while still capitalist, challenges the flaws of the current system. The other two good options (as mentioned by other PBers yesterday) for the Tories might also be Johnny Mercer and Rory Stewart.

    Patel, in her latest constituency newsletter is very, very nasty about anyone who doesn’t support ‘the will of the people’ over Brexit.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited October 2017
    JonathanD said:

    The people who advise her from GCHQ will understand encryption perfectly well.

    I think rather than Rudd not understanding encryption its the Register that doesn't understand intelligence work.

    Also if you read what she says, what they want the tech community to do is a bit more subtle than a straight backdoor into the encryption.

    I've been making that point for years, but you have put it much better than I ever did. We get hundreds of posts here from people who think they understand encryption. Maybe they do, in a technical sense. The sheer arrogance of them assuming that GCHQ don't understand it rather better than them is breath-taking, but, more importantly, as you say, the technicalities of encryption aren't the whole story by any means.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    After the conference is the greatest time of danger for Mrs May. IDS was gone by the end of October.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    I've wondered why Stansted is the designated airport: after all, it is fairly far away from Hereford. Is it because you can reach it from the North Sea without overflying massively populated areas? But if that's the case, what about planes coming from the west?
    Its a big field, with remote (plane) parking areas away from people and buildings, yet close enough to other London airports that any plane coming from the east could be diverted there without having to worry about things like fuel.

    A plane coming from the west over the Atlantic would end up at Shannon or Prestwick.
  • Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
    But you do not answer the question. Who else during Brexit
    That is the problem we have. None of our current politicians are up to the job.
    Agreed and that is why replacing Theresa will not make any tangible difference to Brexit
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    JonathanD said:

    OchEye said:

    Just found this on The Reg concerning Rudd, and, like this mighty organ, it is the comments which are even more interesting : http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/03/amber_rudd_still_does_not_understand_encryption/

    The people who advise her from GCHQ will understand encryption perfectly well.

    I think rather than Rudd not understanding encryption its the Register that doesn't understand intelligence work.

    Also if you read what she says, what they want the tech community to do is a bit more subtle than a straight backdoor into the encryption.
    I think most people, techie or otherwise, understand the importance of intelligence gathering and handling by the security services in providing protection to us. The techies on the other hand are well versed in the black and white hat activities, mostly to be aware of the need to protect systems from attack by the PIA's.

    If someone comes up with a brilliant idea, another person is sure to come along and adapt it in a totally unexpected way. There is a permanent state of war in technology that those in government do not seem to be able to understand.

    And the real counter argument is quite simple, if the real bad guys, Da'esh or the kiddie fiddlers, decide that using the Internet is getting too dangerous for them, there are many different old fashioned ways of communicating, from personal couriers to the mail which were very successfully used before the Internet was invented. Single use code pads anyone?

    Even Tor, used as the gateway into the "Dark Web" was invented by the US security services to allow their agents to communicate. And didn't that work out well...
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    glw said:

    JonathanD said:

    Governments have had the legal right to intercept communications for decades. This is hardly some new horror visited upon us. You are sounding like some Yank worried about the US government prying his Ak-47 from his cold, dead hands.

    I wouldn't mind if I thought that the security and intelligence services were only going to target "bad guys", but that's not how they operate, they want mass surveillance capabilities. That's how we end up with internet buffers, full take intercept systems, boasts of intercepting all the phone calls in a country, and so on. It's not like any of this is a secret anymore, Snowdon's leaks confirmed things that had long been rumoured.

    Backdoors, lawful intercept, golden keys, it doesn't matter what you call them, they all weaken security, and the get abused and in some cases that abuse is by foreign powers.
    +1
    First they came for the terrorists and the paedophiles...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    JonathanD said:

    The people who advise her from GCHQ will understand encryption perfectly well.

    I think rather than Rudd not understanding encryption its the Register that doesn't understand intelligence work.

    Also if you read what she says, what they want the tech community to do is a bit more subtle than a straight backdoor into the encryption.

    I've been making that point for years, but you have put it much better than I ever did. We get hundreds of posts here from people who think they understand encryption. Maybe they do, in a technical sense. The sheer arrogance of them assuming that GCHQ don't understand it rather better than them is breath-taking, but, more importantly, as you say, the technicalities of encryption aren't the whole story by any means.
    Did you mean CCHQ rather than GCHQ?
    The technicalities are 'pretty much the whole story' - they can't be fudged or ignored. There could be a way of achieving her aims but it's not currently in her plans.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    I've been making that point for years, but you have put it much better than I ever did. We get hundreds of posts here from people who think they understand encryption. Maybe they do, in a technical sense. The sheer arrogance of them assuming that GCHQ don't understand it rather better than them is breath-taking, but, more importantly, as you say, the technicalities of encryption aren't the whole story by any means.

    Of course GCHQ understand it. But when GCHQ outlines the technical capabilities they would like, it gets turned by the Home Office into this meaningless "we don't want to ban encryption" drivel. No but they do want a bypass of a lawful intercept capability in the app or device, so that we can have this charade of "well the encryption hasn't been defeated or weakened".
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,587

    JonathanD said:

    The people who advise her from GCHQ will understand encryption perfectly well.

    I think rather than Rudd not understanding encryption its the Register that doesn't understand intelligence work.

    Also if you read what she says, what they want the tech community to do is a bit more subtle than a straight backdoor into the encryption.

    I've been making that point for years, but you have put it much better than I ever did. We get hundreds of posts here from people who think they understand encryption. Maybe they do, in a technical sense. The sheer arrogance of them assuming that GCHQ don't understand it rather better than them is breath-taking, but, more importantly, as you say, the technicalities of encryption aren't the whole story by any means.
    I don't think that's the case - I think rather it's that they assume GCHQ has little concern for the wider economy (and that politicians have little understanding of the technical issues).
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256


    That is the problem we have. None of our current politicians are up to the job.

    Agreed and that is why replacing Theresa will not make any tangible difference to Brexit
    My concern is that the politicians wanting to replace her are more concerned with internal party politics or self-advancement. We have started Brexit and it just seems to be happening slowly somewhere in the background, just oozing along to an inevitable WTO conclusion.

    No one seems to be in control of the process. They are all waiting for the s*** to hit the fan and trying to position themselves to benefit from the fallout.
  • The technicalities are 'pretty much the whole story' -

    Really? What qualifies you to say that?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,545
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    I've wondered why Stansted is the designated airport: after all, it is fairly far away from Hereford. Is it because you can reach it from the North Sea without overflying massively populated areas? But if that's the case, what about planes coming from the west?
    Its a big field, with remote (plane) parking areas away from people and buildings, yet close enough to other London airports that any plane coming from the east could be diverted there without having to worry about things like fuel.

    A plane coming from the west over the Atlantic would end up at Shannon or Prestwick.
    Thanks.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    What makes you think anyone else could do better on Brexit. That is the problem

    Without Brexit she would have been gone a while ago
    Her confidence is totally shattered. and her thought process is very limited.
    But you do not answer the question. Who else during Brexit
    That is the problem we have. None of our current politicians are up to the job.
    That is because the job - delivering a tolerable Brexit - is impossible. May's antics, and those of Cameron before her, have boxed the UK into a corner. Economic and political decline in the next few years are now inevitable and there is nothing any government could do to avoid that.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    They only spin it in the sim - it's highly departure resistant. I've spun a Bulldog when I was in my UAS and decided that was enough spinning for the rest of my aviation career.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724


    That is the problem we have. None of our current politicians are up to the job.

    Agreed and that is why replacing Theresa will not make any tangible difference to Brexit
    My concern is that the politicians wanting to replace her are more concerned with internal party politics or self-advancement. We have started Brexit and it just seems to be happening slowly somewhere in the background, just oozing along to an inevitable WTO conclusion.

    No one seems to be in control of the process. They are all waiting for the s*** to hit the fan and trying to position themselves to benefit from the fallout.
    +1
  • Has anyone seen what IDS has said about unmarried men?http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59d3b8f9e4b04b9f92054af5/amp?ncid=engmodushpmg00000004

    Meanwhile, I have to say I can’t see what some are seeing in these new generation Tories in regard to the Conservative leadership: Raab, Patel, Kwarteng, Cleverly. Pretty much all of them are Brexiteers and free-marketeers at a time when Brexit isn’t popular with the under 44s and when many people are disillusioned by the current economic consensus. So far, it’s is only Davidson that I have seen really acknowledge this in some detail and actually attempt to set out a Conservative vision which while still capitalist, challenges the flaws of the current system. The other two good options (as mentioned by other PBers yesterday) for the Tories might also be Johnny Mercer and Rory Stewart.

    Patel, in her latest constituency newsletter is very, very nasty about anyone who doesn’t support ‘the will of the people’ over Brexit.
    Not surprising.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    JonathanD said:

    The people who advise her from GCHQ will understand encryption perfectly well.

    I think rather than Rudd not understanding encryption its the Register that doesn't understand intelligence work.

    Also if you read what she says, what they want the tech community to do is a bit more subtle than a straight backdoor into the encryption.

    I've been making that point for years, but you have put it much better than I ever did. We get hundreds of posts here from people who think they understand encryption. Maybe they do, in a technical sense. The sheer arrogance of them assuming that GCHQ don't understand it rather better than them is breath-taking, but, more importantly, as you say, the technicalities of encryption aren't the whole story by any means.
    Oh, the CCHQ guys understand encryption very well, I know a couple of them, seriously big brains.

    Their political leaders don’t understand why they can’t just type a phone number into a computer and see everything displayed on the phone, that’s a political issue rather than a technical one.

    BUT

    Until the politicians understand the basics of the technical issues, and don’t just fire people who tell it like it is rather than what they want to hear, we will get nowhere. Apple have designed their phones such that they have no way of decrypting them, and are prepared to fight in as many courts as they need to, that they have the right to do this to protect their customers’ data.

    Snowden’s revelations were game changing, and not in a good way for the security services.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    They only spin it in the sim - it's highly departure resistant. I've spun a Bulldog when I was in my UAS and decided that was enough spinning for the rest of my aviation career.
    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)
  • Nigelb said:

    I don't think that's the case - I think rather it's that they assume GCHQ has little concern for the wider economy (and that politicians have little understanding of the technical issues).

    The first of those is definitely wrong. The outgoing director of GCHQ has made some very interesting comments of the importance of encrypted communications:

    https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/technology/former-gchq-director-robert-hannigan-encryption-cannot-legislated-away/

    Bear in mind that protecting the UK economy from cyber attacks is part of their brief.

    Politicians obviously are not experts in computing and encryption algorithms, but they don't need to be.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    LOL. Does it even let you practice spins? As I understand it, if you inadvertently spin it will put the full opposite rudder in for you, and the stick forward - all the pilot needs to decide is whether he will pull out or bang out (and to non-pilots, that isn’t an innuendo!) :D
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,883



    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)

    The best advice I ever got on spins was from my Hawk instructor: if it's still spinning at 10,000 feet get out of it and take your ground posting like a man,
  • I always thought Thornberry was much maligned over that flag business, mainly from people who'd run a mile if they had to live next door to a lager-swilling football oik. I'm mean, which of us here doesn't observe with some amused puzzlement the foibles and habits of the lower orders?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    I've wondered why Stansted is the designated airport: after all, it is fairly far away from Hereford. Is it because you can reach it from the North Sea without overflying massively populated areas? But if that's the case, what about planes coming from the west?
    Its a big field, with remote (plane) parking areas away from people and buildings, yet close enough to other London airports that any plane coming from the east could be diverted there without having to worry about things like fuel.

    A plane coming from the west over the Atlantic would end up at Shannon or Prestwick.
    Thanks.
    You’d probably enjoy this documentary on the QRA team
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hijzP1zzLI
  • Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    I always thought Thornberry was much maligned over that flag business, mainly from people who'd run a mile if they had to live next door to a lager-swilling football oik. I'm mean, which of us here doesn't observe with some amused puzzlement the foibles and habits of the lower orders?

    You are Alan Duncan and I claim my £5.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I don't think Corbyn will stand down before the election, but I agree Emily looks a very strong candidate when he does. The only Tory attack lines seem to be "Lady Nugent" (shrug), something about claiming military rank inappropriately (obscure) and her wry comment on the guy with the huge flag (get over it). She is not especially left-wing but she's from the North London core of the Corbynist movement.

    Technical speech-making note: usually it's unwise to laugh at your own jokes, but in the clip she seems to pull it off, by making herself part of the fun, like equals chuckling together in a room rather than a lofty speaker haranguing the masses.

    Wasn't a massive fan of Thornberry but seems she has become more comfortable in her leading role and now does well on TV.

    She may not be as left wing as Jeremy - but she has shown rather more sense than other Labour MPs in backing him and trying to make the best of it.

    Her past misteps are minor as you say.

    My concern would be is that she is very obviously London + middle class - and so may struggle to get traction criticising the Tories on certain topics...

    My concern regarding her too. Would be 3 successive leaders from or representing London. Not her fault, but could be described as a pattern were she to take over.
    Yes.
    I doubt it would be fatal to her chances of being a good leader/winning a GE - but it is definitely a negative.

    Corbyn has ended up giving opportunities to many Labour MPs who might otherwise have been stuck waiting for a long time - partly because others refused to serve. Some won't work out - but others might well be future stars.
  • Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    He's actually making some very good points. Family breakdown is a major social issue:

    “Cohabitation is a very different relationship from marriage,” he said. “It is inherently unstable.”

    He went on: “The answer I think is because cohabitation suits one of the partners more than the other. Almost invariably it suits the man, because they have to make good on their commitment and when that commitment is facing them they then withdraw.”


    Not much to disagree with there. Look at the number of households where the father has scarpered, leaving the mother, and society, to pick up the pieces. And on every measure, from educational attainment to mental health to physical health to financial stability to crime, children in those households are statistically much more likely to be heavily disadvantaged.

    But of course the left don't care about that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    They only spin it in the sim - it's highly departure resistant. I've spun a Bulldog when I was in my UAS and decided that was enough spinning for the rest of my aviation career.
    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)
    The Puch was horrible to spin, like the DG505 it takes a couple of turns to come out even when you’ve got the recovery spot on. K13 and G103 much better for check flights!
  • So the Vegas shooters girlfriend has been married to multiple people at once and multiple different IDs.

    The story just gets weirder and weirder....or perhaps Mrs Urquhart and my life is just really really boring.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    This may not be the best angle to take to win the youth vote...
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    What's all this about Amber Rudd's back doors?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Dura_Ace said:



    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)

    The best advice I ever got on spins was from my Hawk instructor: if it's still spinning at 10,000 feet get out of it and take your ground posting like a man,
    In gliders we practice spins from 1,000’ - the spin following a failed winch launch is what kills people. Easily dealt with if well trained though, even if you have a horrible view for a few seconds.
  • A motorbike exploded in front of the building housing Jordan's military military mission in Paris on Wednesday morning, an embassy official said,

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/04/motorbike-explodes-outside-jordans-military-attache-building/
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited October 2017
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    They only spin it in the sim - it's highly departure resistant. I've spun a Bulldog when I was in my UAS and decided that was enough spinning for the rest of my aviation career.
    Thanks for prompting my first google from PB of the day - but doesn't departure resistance mean that it is therefore a better prospect to spin?

    Signed: a recently-qualified aeronautical engineering expert.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    Any probability May will announce her resignation today? (Or set a date to leave?) Time to let some new blood take charge.

    Not a chance - she will take us to March 2019
    Unless the Tories oust her within the next few weeks she is safe till the General Election. She's a broken woman and her early departure is best for her, her party and the country.
    After the conference is the greatest time of danger for Mrs May. IDS was gone by the end of October.
    I think May is safe until the first by election that the Tories lose. Thatcher was gone within a few weeks after losing Eastbourne -which just happened to be not long after the Tory conference. Mrs May's Eastbourne could come at any time and it will be this which galvanises Tory MPs to strike. Whatever happens, I do not believe that May will fight -or wish to fight-a general election which would humiliate her,
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,545
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    I've wondered why Stansted is the designated airport: after all, it is fairly far away from Hereford. Is it because you can reach it from the North Sea without overflying massively populated areas? But if that's the case, what about planes coming from the west?
    Its a big field, with remote (plane) parking areas away from people and buildings, yet close enough to other London airports that any plane coming from the east could be diverted there without having to worry about things like fuel.

    A plane coming from the west over the Atlantic would end up at Shannon or Prestwick.
    Thanks.
    You’d probably enjoy this documentary on the QRA team
    http s://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hijzP1zzLI
    Thanks again. I'll watch that later.

    An anecdote: many moons ago I met someone who was an RAF mission planner. He'd flown all over the world with the RAF, but had never gone in the Tornado planes whose missions he was planning. Apparently people get fed up with journalists who, on a merest pretence, get to fly in the fast jets, whilst people with decades in the RAF never did.

    He bitched about this to his superior officer, and it was all arranged. He planned a sortie that was ridiculous, and the pilots, who were in on the ruse, complained. The planner stuck to his guns, and the result was the pilots said they'd fly the profile with him in it, to show him how hard it was.

    Hence he got to fly in a Tornado on a rather thrilling ride!

    On a sad note: I met him in late 2003, and he told me how I was sitting on the same sofa that two aircrew who died in the Gulf had been sitting a few months earlier. ISTR it was a friendly-fire incident.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    He's actually making some very good points. Family breakdown is a major social issue:

    “Cohabitation is a very different relationship from marriage,” he said. “It is inherently unstable.”

    He went on: “The answer I think is because cohabitation suits one of the partners more than the other. Almost invariably it suits the man, because they have to make good on their commitment and when that commitment is facing them they then withdraw.”


    Not much to disagree with there. Look at the number of households where the father has scarpered, leaving the mother, and society, to pick up the pieces. And on every measure, from educational attainment to mental health to physical health to financial stability to crime, children in those households are statistically much more likely to be heavily disadvantaged.

    But of course the left don't care about that.
    Well how about a few tax breaks for marriage then ?

    OK There is the personal allowane switcheroo, and the pension got rightly sorted. The tax system is the correct way to make these points though, not IDS ranting and raving at a Tory fringe meeting...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
    I'd agree with that almost entirely.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    I've wondered why Stansted is the designated airport: after all, it is fairly far away from Hereford. Is it because you can reach it from the North Sea without overflying massively populated areas? But if that's the case, what about planes coming from the west?
    Its a big field, with remote (plane) parking areas away from people and buildings, yet close enough to other London airports that any plane coming from the east could be diverted there without having to worry about things like fuel.

    A plane coming from the west over the Atlantic would end up at Shannon or Prestwick.
    Thanks.
    You’d probably enjoy this documentary on the QRA team
    http s://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3hijzP1zzLI
    Thanks again. I'll watch that later.

    An anecdote: many moons ago I met someone who was an RAF mission planner. He'd flown all over the world with the RAF, but had never gone in the Tornado planes whose missions he was planning. Apparently people get fed up with journalists who, on a merest pretence, get to fly in the fast jets, whilst people with decades in the RAF never did.

    He bitched about this to his superior officer, and it was all arranged. He planned a sortie that was ridiculous, and the pilots, who were in on the ruse, complained. The planner stuck to his guns, and the result was the pilots said they'd fly the profile with him in it, to show him how hard it was.

    Hence he got to fly in a Tornado on a rather thrilling ride!

    On a sad note: I met him in late 2003, and he told me how I was sitting on the same sofa that two aircrew who died in the Gulf had been sitting a few months earlier. ISTR it was a friendly-fire incident.
    I remember hearing the report of one such journalist describing a trip in a fast jet and how, beforehand at breakfast, the pilot gave him some bananas to eat. The journalist thanked him and wondered whether this was on account of its health properties, potassium, etc and the pilot said no - it's because they taste the same coming up as they do going down.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Well how about a few tax breaks for marriage then ?

    OK There is the personal allowane switcheroo, and the pension got rightly sorted. The tax system is the correct way to make these points though, not IDS ranting and raving at a Tory fringe meeting...

    Was he ranting and raving? He is certainly passionate about helping deal with the problems of those who get left behind by social changes, and to his enormous credit is one of the very few politicians who has actually taken the trouble to find out, in detail, what is going wrong and how it affects people who normally scarcely register in political debate.

    As to what the solutions are, it's certainly the case that we should at least ensure that the tax and benefits systems don't actively penalise marriage, as they did to a very large extent before the changes under Cameron. I'm not sure if further tax/benefit measures would be helpful, I suspect not.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited October 2017

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
    Why is marriage a symptom of lack of stake in society?

    Maybe when given the choice, quite a few people aren’t keen on marriage. A recent YouGov poll showed this:

    ‘For a sizeable minority of Britons, however, the ideal number of spouses is none. A quarter of women and 17% of men say that they wouldn’t want to have a husband or wife.’

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/16/almost-one-eight-men-would-polygamous-marriage/
  • kjhkjh Posts: 10,468
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)

    The best advice I ever got on spins was from my Hawk instructor: if it's still spinning at 10,000 feet get out of it and take your ground posting like a man,
    In gliders we practice spins from 1,000’ - the spin following a failed winch launch is what kills people. Easily dealt with if well trained though, even if you have a horrible view for a few seconds.
    My glider flying only lasted a month or so. I had a girlfriend with a glider and then I didn't! So my experience is very limited, but I remember on one winch launch thinking I'm getting really used to this; that was very tame, only to be told by my instructor that he would be taking over this flight. I calmly sat there not realising he was deciding whether he could make it around to land or was going to put us in a field because the launch had gone wrong. Hadn't changed gears or something, hence the gentle, but presumably very low launch. I was oblivious to it all.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    They only spin it in the sim - it's highly departure resistant. I've spun a Bulldog when I was in my UAS and decided that was enough spinning for the rest of my aviation career.
    Thanks for prompting my first google from PB of the day - but doesn't departure resistance mean that it is therefore a better prospect to spin?

    Signed: a recently-qualified aeronautical engineering expert.
    It simply means that the aircraft is more difficult to force into unstable flight. There are some aircraft that are nearly impossible to spin unless you alter the balance by over/under loading.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)

    The best advice I ever got on spins was from my Hawk instructor: if it's still spinning at 10,000 feet get out of it and take your ground posting like a man,
    In gliders we practice spins from 1,000’ - the spin following a failed winch launch is what kills people. Easily dealt with if well trained though, even if you have a horrible view for a few seconds.
    I refused an 800ft spin entry from an instructor in a glider once. Apparently things got heated enough that they overheard us from the launch point below.

    I was always glad to get above the 300ft - 400ft point on winch launches. I reserved my polebending for the final phases.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    dr_spyn said:
    So if they Exit too it will solve the Irish border problem and get the ECJ off their backs....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
    Why is marriage a symptom of lack of stake in society?

    Maybe when given the choice, quite a few people aren’t keen on marriage. A recent YouGov poll showed this:

    ‘For a sizeable minority of Britons, however, the ideal number of spouses is none. A quarter of women and 17% of men say that they wouldn’t want to have a husband or wife.’

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/16/almost-one-eight-men-would-polygamous-marriage/
    .Not wanting marriage is the lack of stake in society, but forcing it on people is just treating the symptom, not the cause.

    "A further observation is that when boys and men conclude they will not gain respect they turn to fear. That is, for many, creating fear of them in others becomes a substitute for respect. Fear feels, to them, like respect or at least is an acceptable substitute"

    From http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2015/01/the-problem-with-men-and-why-we-ignore-itthem-at-our-own-risk/#TrFzIGtMXTDIlwgP.99

    Add in the default expression of emotion in men as anger and we see the consequences in terms of societal fracture. I think this particularly so in patriarchal societies, such as amongst Muslims.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    TOPPING said:

    I remember hearing the report of one such journalist describing a trip in a fast jet and how, beforehand at breakfast, the pilot gave him some bananas to eat. The journalist thanked him and wondered whether this was on account of its health properties, potassium, etc and the pilot said no - it's because they taste the same coming up as they do going down.

    Pilot humour at its finest :)
  • Why is marriage a symptom of lack of stake in society?

    Maybe when given the choice, quite a few people aren’t keen on marriage.

    You are right, a lot of people aren't keen on marriage. That is a problem, mostly for them and their children, and ultimately for the rest of us.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    They only spin it in the sim - it's highly departure resistant. I've spun a Bulldog when I was in my UAS and decided that was enough spinning for the rest of my aviation career.
    Thanks for prompting my first google from PB of the day - but doesn't departure resistance mean that it is therefore a better prospect to spin?

    Signed: a recently-qualified aeronautical engineering expert.
    It simply means that the aircraft is more difficult to force into unstable flight. There are some aircraft that are nearly impossible to spin unless you alter the balance by over/under loading.
    tx
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Mortimer said:

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
    I'd agree with that almost entirely.
    Really? What is next? That women are holding jobs that blokes should be doing? That we should all be housewives to ensure our children are not neglected and the breadwinner comes home to a warm fire, slippers and his dinner on the table? Should we return to A-line dresses and petticoats?

    IDS might be pining for the 1950s, most of us are not.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
    Why is marriage a symptom of lack of stake in society?

    Maybe when given the choice, quite a few people aren’t keen on marriage. A recent YouGov poll showed this:

    ‘For a sizeable minority of Britons, however, the ideal number of spouses is none. A quarter of women and 17% of men say that they wouldn’t want to have a husband or wife.’

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/16/almost-one-eight-men-would-polygamous-marriage/
    .Not wanting marriage is the lack of stake in society, but forcing it on people is just treating the symptom, not the cause.

    "A further observation is that when boys and men conclude they will not gain respect they turn to fear. That is, for many, creating fear of them in others becomes a substitute for respect. Fear feels, to them, like respect or at least is an acceptable substitute"

    From http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2015/01/the-problem-with-men-and-why-we-ignore-itthem-at-our-own-risk/#TrFzIGtMXTDIlwgP.99

    Add in the default expression of emotion in men as anger and we see the consequences in terms of societal fracture. I think this particularly so in patriarchal societies, such as amongst Muslims.
    That's an interesting article.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
    Why is marriage a symptom of lack of stake in society?

    Maybe when given the choice, quite a few people aren’t keen on marriage. A recent YouGov poll showed this:

    ‘For a sizeable minority of Britons, however, the ideal number of spouses is none. A quarter of women and 17% of men say that they wouldn’t want to have a husband or wife.’

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/16/almost-one-eight-men-would-polygamous-marriage/
    Agreed. Ultimately there are stable cohabiting couples and dysfunctional marriages. There may well be a correlation between cohabitation/marriage and (dys)functionality, but I see no reason to believe there's any causation.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)

    The best advice I ever got on spins was from my Hawk instructor: if it's still spinning at 10,000 feet get out of it and take your ground posting like a man,
    In gliders we practice spins from 1,000’ - the spin following a failed winch launch is what kills people. Easily dealt with if well trained though, even if you have a horrible view for a few seconds.
    I refused an 800ft spin entry from an instructor in a glider once. Apparently things got heated enough that they overheard us from the launch point below.

    I was always glad to get above the 300ft - 400ft point on winch launches. I reserved my polebending for the final phases.
    Ha, well done. I’m sure P1 didn’t want to get killed either. 800’ doesn’t give you a lot of time or options, lots of ‘eventualities’ to consider there. Better to look out and watch the ASI during the launch, and react correctly to a failed launch in the first place.

    We’re way, way off topic for a politics blog!
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Two RAF typhoon fighter jets escort a Ryanair jet into Luton

    Stansted not Luton
    It’s always Stansted or Prestwick if there’s a ‘problem’. Airports designated for such occurrences.

    Reports of sonic booms over Norfolk and Suffolk, so whatever it is the QRA got permission to be extra ‘Q’ this morning.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41495677
    Good it was nothing serious, another practice sortie for the QRA who keep us all safe. :+1:
    I would not mind a little bunt around in a Typhoon, but no spin practice :D
    They only spin it in the sim - it's highly departure resistant. I've spun a Bulldog when I was in my UAS and decided that was enough spinning for the rest of my aviation career.
    I did a lot of glider flying at one point and spin practice was mandatory - especially in a Puchacz. Seeing nothing but the ground in front of you and approaching at 100kts was "interesting". It really made you lean back in your seat :)
    The Puch was horrible to spin, like the DG505 it takes a couple of turns to come out even when you’ve got the recovery spot on. K13 and G103 much better for check flights!
    I did quite a few in K13s, but I could never get the K21 to spin with me solo. The loading was too light. It generally just wound up in a spiral dive and I give up when the g-meter recorded 4.2g on the pullout.
  • @foxinsoxuk Agree with your last point, but I’m not sure about your point that some men not wanting marriage is symptom of a lack of stake in society. If we go by the YouGov figures there are more women out there that don’t want to get married than men!

    @Richard Nabavi Not all those who aren’t keen on marriage are those with children. Some don’t want marriage and children.

  • Really? What is next? That women are holding jobs that blokes should be doing? That we should all be housewives to ensure our children are not neglected and the breadwinner comes home to a warm fire, slippers and his dinner on the table? Should we return to A-line dresses and petticoats?

    IDS might be pining for the 1950s, most of us are not.

    Why are you inventing things which have absolutely zero to do with what IDS says?

    This is part of the underlying issue - we can't have a sensible debate on the massive problems caused by family breakdown because it's a taboo subject amongst many, for some bizarre reason.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Essexit said:

    Pong said:

    Urgh.

    This is the brexiteers binge.

    The ultimate failure of dave's detox.

    The Conservative party in its current ideological configuration cannot win another election.
    The ‘unmarried men’ are a problem message is something I always associated by and large with the American right. It would often be commentators from the American Right that I’d see saying as such (from my Twitter feed). Then again I’m not surprised that someone like IDS is agreeing with them. He’s pretty right wing, after all.
    IDS is rather like Ed Miliband in that he is far better at identifying problems than coming up with solutions.

    I am much in agreement with his analysis of young men and their alienation from society. Where he falls down is not being tough on the causes. Marriage is a symptom of lack of stake in society, not its answer.
    Why is marriage a symptom of lack of stake in society?

    Maybe when given the choice, quite a few people aren’t keen on marriage. A recent YouGov poll showed this:

    ‘For a sizeable minority of Britons, however, the ideal number of spouses is none. A quarter of women and 17% of men say that they wouldn’t want to have a husband or wife.’

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/08/16/almost-one-eight-men-would-polygamous-marriage/
    Agreed. Ultimately there are stable cohabiting couples and dysfunctional marriages. There may well be a correlation between cohabitation/marriage and (dys)functionality, but I see no reason to believe there's any causation.
    From the government’s point of view, there’s also a massive amount of benefit fraud from cohabiting couples not declaring such arrangements to the relevant authorities. The increasing casulisation of relationships only makes this worse.
  • Indeed :)

    Its good to see the human side of MPs sometimes. Who can't relate to singing Sweet Caroline after a few drinks, perfect song for a karaoke. :)
  • So how much is Mrs May going wipe off Sterling today, will she outdo her 2016 speech?
This discussion has been closed.