The even more terrifying thing is it's a viable electoral strategy for the tories - next time around - to consolidate the over 50 NIMBY block vote and scrape ever more pork from the millenials.
This is the nightmare scenario in a tory leadership contest which goes to a vote of the members.
Perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right, than to be responsible and wrong....
But I think we need a deal, and a deal which works and which won't negatively impact on the economy too much. If immigration isn't a deal-breaker, then i'm now in the EEA/EFTA camp.
But they are generally less keen on unknown migrants from failed or violent or very different states, especially at a time when terrorism is a threat.
But this acceptance (of free movement within the EU) was crucially dependant on being confident that other EU states would comply with the rules on migration into the EU.
Errr... surely these people were Asylum Seekers / Refugees and not migrants since they were fleeing violent conflict and persecution? In which case we should have been refusing them entry to the UK on the basis that asylum must be applied for in the first safe country and they had already crossed through Europe.
How many, really, were refugees or asylum seekers? ... Sentimentality has no place in politics. Ruthless self-interest does. We should be inviting into the country those who are an asset. We should give refuge to the most vulnerable who need it not those with the sharpest elbows. We should not be inviting in unknown strangers because we’re on some guilt trip or because we want to look good.
I am confused by your reply. I was saying that we could have turned many "migrants" back because they were not migrants. We can refuse asylum seekers trying to enter from safe countries such as France, Italy, Germany, Holland, etc. They are not EU citizens and we could have refused non-EU migrants as well.
As far as I am aware the convention that applies is a UN one, not an EU one. After Brexit nothing will change. Do you think that after Brexit the UK will suddenly "grow a pair"?
Possibly. I have always wondered about Bob Dylan myself. I can just imagine his Greatest Hits album being titled "Bob Dylan recites some lyrics" because he cannot sing for toffee.
It’s not just that he can’t sing but that listening to his voice is like listening to nails being scraped down a blackboard.
A good game to play - now that everyone’s bored of coomenting on my piece (boo, sob!) - is to list writers, singers, actors, books etc who are hugely overrated. And underrated ones, of course.
In addition to the ones already named, I’d add Bruce Springsteen, Salman Rushdie and Martin Amis (has anyone ever finished their books?) and Bill Nighy - good actor but he plays the same part over and over and his repetitive ticks mean he’s becoming a parody of himself. His agent badly needs to get him some parts that stretch him.
Joan Baez? Whatever was the fuss about? She was all the rage in the 70s and 80s.
But I think we need a deal, and a deal which works and which won't negatively impact on the economy too much. If immigration isn't a deal-breaker, then i'm now in the EEA/EFTA camp.
What about Northern Ireland?
NI is solved by us remaining in the EEA/ EFTA camp....
"But it has been one which never fully understood Britain’s different approach (history, law, view of the nation state, memory of WW2) and never really understood the need to adapt itself to make Britain more at ease within it or and indeed learn from it (aided by Britain’s begrudging approach to the whole project throughout)."
One man understood all that very well indeed: those are pretty much de Gaulle's reasons why we should never have been admitted in the first place.
But I think we need a deal, and a deal which works and which won't negatively impact on the economy too much. If immigration isn't a deal-breaker, then i'm now in the EEA/EFTA camp.
What about Northern Ireland?
NI is solved by us remaining in the EEA/ EFTA camp....
Not in a way that upholds all parts of the Good Friday Agreement or the commitments in Theresa May's Florence speech. We'd need EEA+ or EEA + NI special status.
Many have been saying this for some time, but of course the oldies always, as ever, know what is best for everyone, after all in their day {Monty Python sketch coming up}. So far, the Tories have inflicted pain on many through the mantra of "Austerity, Austerity, always Austerity" and the promise that everything will be better in 2014,15,16,17,18,19,20,25,30 to infinity and beyond... The Labour Party is the only one offering a positive vision of the future, while the Tories have lost their reputation for honesty - even if they changed the tune, no one would believe them...
Former regional president Artur Mas - who was succeeded by current leader Puigdemont, is in the same party as him (PDeCAT) and who started the separation train rolling - has come out in the Financial Times today and said Catalonia is not ready for independence. It would have been handy if he had said it before now.
The thing to remember is that the separatist alliance in Catalonia is a very broad church. The PDeCAT is a centre-right party with strong roots in the Catalan middle class and business community; the ERC claims to be a socialist party (though it has no interest in solidarity with Spain's poorest communities) and CUP is on the extreme, anarchist left. Beyond independence these parties have absolutely nothing in common and in normal circumstances would be at each others' throats.
Yesterday and today a number of big banks and businesses have started to move their HQs from Barcelona to other parts of Spain in anticipation of an independence declaration next Tuesday. Obviously, they do no want to take any risks about leaving the EU single market or over legal standing and so on. Every bank and business that does this, of course, reduces the tax income available to an independent Catalonia, as well as its credibility as a borrower; and that's before you throw in issues like legal standing. Now, none of this matters to either ERC or to CUP, but to PDeCAT and its voters it is a very big deal indeed.
The Spanish government is now passing legislation that will make it quicker and easier for companies to transfer their HQs out of Catalonia to other parts of Spain. It could just be that it has hit upon a way of fragmenting the independence coalition and of seizing the initiative. Expect independence to still be declared next week, but it will be symbolic and nothing more - it may also accelerate business and capital flight.
The Catalans are not stupid, they are deeply pragmatic. The question a lot of them will be asking themselves is this: wealthy and autonomous inside Spain; a lot poorer, a lot more isolated, but free on the outside? Given the level of self-government they already have, and what is likely to come after all this dies down, I suspect a lot will be having a rethink about the future and concluding that being on the inside might be a lot more appealing than it seemed a few days ago.
Of course, all this depends on the PP not doing something utterly stupid like sending in the troops. As this is the PP, that can never be ruled out.
But I think we need a deal, and a deal which works and which won't negatively impact on the economy too much. If immigration isn't a deal-breaker, then i'm now in the EEA/EFTA camp.
What about Northern Ireland?
NI is solved by us remaining in the EEA/ EFTA camp....
Not in a way that upholds all parts of the Good Friday Agreement or the commitments in Theresa May's Florence speech. We'd need EEA+ or EEA + NI special status.
Which parts are those? It seems ridiculous we can’t leave the EU because of then Good Friday Agreement.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Or lib dem leavers.
They were pretty invisible! Hell, even the LibDem Remainers were largely invisible.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Least of all because the leading Labour Leaver - Jeremy Corbyn - probably helped swing the vote, given how Labour working class voters turned out for Leave....
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Or lib dem leavers.
They were pretty invisible! Hell, even the LibDem Remainers were largely invisible.
I don’t really like “Imagine”. Much prefer “Here Comes the Sun”.
"Imagine" is a dreary dirge in comparison
Imagine is a dreary dirge, full stop. But then the Beatles, and Lennon, are over-rated. They had the good fortune to be the best among the first of their type (and also to split before they got tired). That novelty was critical to their reputation historically. Had someone else got there first, they wouldn't be rated half so highly.
Possibly. I have always wondered about Bob Dylan myself. I can just imagine his Greatest Hits album being titled "Bob Dylan recites some lyrics" because he cannot sing for toffee.
It’s not just that he can’t sing but that listening to his voice is like listening to nails being scraped down a blackboard.
A good game to play - now that everyone’s bored of coomenting on my piece (boo, sob!) - is to list writers, singers, actors, books etc who are hugely overrated. And underrated ones, of course.
In addition to the ones already named, I’d add Bruce Springsteen, Salman Rushdie and Martin Amis (has anyone ever finished their books?) and Bill Nighy - good actor but he plays the same part over and over and his repetitive ticks mean he’s becoming a parody of himself. His agent badly needs to get him some parts that stretch him.
Sorry, have to withdraw the PM offer - I like Dylan a great deal.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Did you believe the Tory Leavers when they said all this? Odd that you wouldn't cross check with the Labour Leavers.
On the lazy sods and hard yards issue, could you post a succinct summary of your canvassing diary from the campaign? Thanks.
The answer is to give the Catalans a legitimate referendum as per Scotland.
And see the Independence fall as it fails to get a majority
There is no other way
Back of a fag packet calculation says 90% of 38% is 34.2% of the whole so unless turnout is more than 68.4% leave wins even if all the new voters are remain. That is unlikely when you factor in the seized ballot papers and people prevented from voting.
Some leavers probably voted multiple times but post the police brutality I don't think Spain could take a win for granted.
When they can say there was good reason more could not vote and boost turnout. Though given they cannot make indy a reality really, it'll be a long weekend I guess. And now time for blade Runner. I hope it's better than the original.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Because the most prominent Tory Leavers are all in the cabinet - and one of them is leading the Brexit negotiations, claiming they are hugely complex having previously said they'd be very simple to do. The Labour Leavers are either bankbench MPs or no longer in Parliament; UKIP has disintegrated. That's why.
We can't impose a legally different space and then ask others to pretend we haven't. It's not serious.
Fair enough, but they are the ones claiming that it is a very high priority to address the issue whilst simultaneously refusing to discuss the long-term relationship which is absolutely fundamental to the issue.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
A good game to play - now that everyone’s bored of coomenting on my piece (boo, sob!) - is to list writers, singers, actors, books etc who are hugely overrated.
I don’t really like “Imagine”. Much prefer “Here Comes the Sun”.
"Imagine" is a dreary dirge in comparison
Imagine is a dreary dirge, full stop. But then the Beatles, and Lennon, are over-rated. They had the good fortune to be the best among the first of their type (and also to split before they got tired). That novelty was critical to their reputation historically. Had someone else got there first, they wouldn't be rated half so highly.
Possibly. I have always wondered about Bob Dylan myself. I can just imagine his Greatest Hits album being titled "Bob Dylan recites some lyrics" because he cannot sing for toffee.
It’s not just that he can’t sing but that listening to his voice is like listening to nails being scraped down a blackboard.
A good game to play - now that everyone’s bored of coomenting on my piece (boo, sob!) - is to list writers, singers, actors, books etc who are hugely overrated. And underrated ones, of course.
In addition to the ones already named, I’d add Bruce Springsteen, Salman Rushdie and Martin Amis (has anyone ever finished their books?) and Bill Nighy - good actor but he plays the same part over and over and his repetitive ticks mean he’s becoming a parody of himself. His agent badly needs to get him some parts that stretch him.
Sorry, have to withdraw the PM offer - I like Dylan a great deal.
He wrote a good coming of age song for Leavers.
Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth “No ECJ,” I screamed Lies that life is black and white Spoke from my skull. I dreamed Romantic facts of Brexiteers Foundationed deep, somehow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
A self-ordained professor’s tongue Too serious to fool Spouted out that sovereignty Is just parliamentary rule “Sovereignty,” I spoke the word As if a wedding vow Ah, but I was so much older then I’m younger than that now
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Because the most prominent Tory Leavers are all in the cabinet - and one of them is leading the Brexit negotiations, claiming they are hugely complex having previously said they'd be very simple to do. The Labour Leavers are either bankbench MPs or no longer in Parliament; UKIP has disintegrated. That's why.
The piece of yours which I quoted was all about your view that the promises were unrealistic. As it happens I agree with you, but it wasn't just Conservatives on that side of the debate. For that matter, the Tory Remainers were very explicit about the difficulties, but got little or no support from Labour.
Edit: Mind you, I don't think anyone, on any side of the debate, thought that the EU would try to land us with a €100bn bill for having the temerity to want to leave.
Cyclefree's article is the classic Brit Brexit opinion. We will leave the EU and the terms on which we will leave will also be decided by us.
"A wiser EU would understand that a Britain leaving in chaos will do nothing for the EU’s image or claim that it is a force for stability."
It seems that it is for a Briton to decide what is wise for the EU. Apparently, they are not capable of taking that decision themselves. If Britain does not get what it wants, as it will not, it will blame the EU for not getting what it wanted.
We forget Britain was already having the cake and eating it. It had the rebate, it had the opt-outs. No other country had those privileges as extensively as we did. We were never really a member of the EU. All we wanted was tariff free access. Now we will soon get upset if it is not served on a plate.
Maybe, we have not grown out of our post-imperial attitude. The world owes us our privileges.
Have you driven from Dublin to Belfast recently or got the train ?
There is no border control.
What's the point of Brexit, then?
I'm not sure the point of Brexit was the Irish border.
The EU seem keen on erecting a unilateral tariff blockade. Which isn't very progressive.
If the EU does not police its external border with the UK it is potentially breaching WTO rules on equal treatment. The UK may also be open to action on that basis if it does not control its land border in Northern Ireland but chooses to do so elsewhere.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Because the most prominent Tory Leavers are all in the cabinet - and one of them is leading the Brexit negotiations, claiming they are hugely complex having previously said they'd be very simple to do. The Labour Leavers are either bankbench MPs or no longer in Parliament; UKIP has disintegrated. That's why.
You're also remarkably quiet about the not insignificant matter that it was the Labour Party and particularly Blair and Brown that continued full steam ahead with the European project despite strong demonstration that it was not wanted.
Why didn't they do the hard work, researching how likely it would be that people would be attracted to Britain because of our relatively generous non contributory welfare state? Why didn't they try to grow the economy in other ways? Why did they give away part of the rebate? Why didn't they crucify the French over BSE? Why didn't they challenge the moves towards QMV.
Was it because they couldn't be arsed? Or was it because they wanted to rub Britain's nose on diversity? Well either way. This is the consequence.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Because the most prominent Tory Leavers are all in the cabinet - and one of them is leading the Brexit negotiations, claiming they are hugely complex having previously said they'd be very simple to do. The Labour Leavers are either bankbench MPs or no longer in Parliament; UKIP has disintegrated. That's why.
You're also remarkably quiet about the not insignificant matter that it was the Labour Party and particularly Blair and Brown that continued full steam ahead with the European project despite strong demonstration that it was not wanted.
Why didn't they do the hard work, researching how likely it would be that people would be attracted to Britain because of our relatively generous non contributory welfare state? Why didn't they try to grow the economy in other ways? Why did they give away part of the rebate? Why didn't they crucify the French over BSE? Why didn't they
Was it because they couldn't be arsed? Or was it because they wanted to rub Britain's nose on diversity? Well either way. This is the consequence.
You might be able to blame Blair and Brown for the Leave vote in part, but they have absolutely no responsibility for the claims and promises current Cabinet minsters made during the referendum campaign, or for the fact that such claims and promises have turned out to be completely wrong.
Have you driven from Dublin to Belfast recently or got the train ?
There is no border control.
What's the point of Brexit, then?
I'm not sure the point of Brexit was the Irish border.
The EU seem keen on erecting a unilateral tariff blockade. Which isn't very progressive.
It is the UK which is leaving the EU. If tariff free trade cannot be agreed, the logical consequence is a border for tariff. Maybe, like Norway and Sweden, where they allow cars and pedestrians full unfettered access, trucks can only use certain routes where they have to go through customs. I believe there are only 9 points between Norway and Sweden where trucks can go through.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Because the most prominent Tory Leavers are all in the cabinet - and one of them is leading the Brexit negotiations, claiming they are hugely complex having previously said they'd be very simple to do. The Labour Leavers are either bankbench MPs or no longer in Parliament; UKIP has disintegrated. That's why.
The piece of yours which I quoted was all about your view that the promises were unrealistic. As it happens I agree with you, but it wasn't just Conservatives on that side of the debate. For that matter, the Tory Remainers were very explicit about the difficulties, but got little or no support from Labour.
Edit: Mind you, I don't think anyone, on any side of the debate, thought that the EU would try to land us with a €100bn bill for having the temerity to want to leave.
That's true: we underestimated just how headbanging the EU really are!
It isn't a mandate because the overwhelming part of those opposed saw the referendum as illegitimate. It was definitely illegal.
If you are going for informal proxy votes, you need a much higher threshold than 50% support. You need to show that the substantial majority is on your side. Based on these results, it doesn't look like it.
The numbers roughly match those of the informal 2014 vote. The participation rate is about the same. That time it was a three way question. Given that, the ballots are also about the same. Opinion polls tend to show a bit less than a half to a half support independence.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Because the most prominent Tory Leavers are all in the cabinet - and one of them is leading the Brexit negotiations, claiming they are hugely complex having previously said they'd be very simple to do. The Labour Leavers are either bankbench MPs or no longer in Parliament; UKIP has disintegrated. That's why.
The piece of yours which I quoted was all about your view that the promises were unrealistic. As it happens I agree with you, but it wasn't just Conservatives on that side of the debate. For that matter, the Tory Remainers were very explicit about the difficulties, but got little or no support from Labour.
Edit: Mind you, I don't think anyone, on any side of the debate, thought that the EU would try to land us with a €100bn bill for having the temerity to want to leave.
I agree that Labour and Corbyn in particular were utterly invisible during the campaign. But the promises and claims made by current Cabinet ministers are there in black and white. They were either lying or did not know what they were talking about. I am very happy to concede that anyone else in any other party who made the same claims and promises was also lying or pig ignorant. But such people are not now in Cabinet and responsible for securing a final Brexit deal.
Catalonian banks will emerge. There will be disruption , for sure. This is not Brexit as Catalonia can have tariff free trade with the EU just like before. It won't insist on doing their own trade deals.
Catalonia has its industries. It should leave the country run by fascists.
If the EU wanted to resolve the Irish border that necessitates an agreement on trade, which they refuse to have.
Yeah, it seems absurd to want a solution to it without knowing what the future arrangement will be.
It seems like, on the part of the EU, a way of trying to hit home the realisation that leaving the single market / customs union involves the creation of a hard border.
This wasn't made clear to people at the time of the referendum.
An interesting article. But we were promised by the Tory Leavers that a Brexit deal would be the easiest thing in the world to do, that German car manufacturers would demand one, that they need us more than we need them, that we would get all the benefits of being in the single market and none of the downsides, that the Irish border was not an issue, and that sunlit uplands were but a vote away. All that before £350 million extra a week for the NHS.
The EU is what it is: a large, inflexible institution that has a certain way of doing things. The Tory Brexiteers should have known all this. They should have known that leaving was never going to be anything other than complex, just as they should have known how FTAs are done and what drives them. But they didn't. All these years railing against the EUSSR and they had absolutely no idea about how it works or how intertwined the UK is with it. That's not the EU's fault; it's the fault of the lazy sods who liked making speeches, invoking Churchill and Henry V, but could never be arsed to do the hard yards. As far as I can tell, the only Leaver who has ever done that is Richard Tyndall of this parish - and he, very wisely, backed (backs?) the EEA/EFTA option.
Odd that you mention, sneeringly, 'Tory Leavers' and 'Tory Brexiteers', and yet never get round to mentioning 'Labour Leavers' or 'Labour Brexiteers' or indeed 'UKIP Brexiteers'.
Why is that, I wonder?
Because the most prominent Tory Leavers are all in the cabinet - and one of them is leading the Brexit negotiations, claiming they are hugely complex having previously said they'd be very simple to do. The Labour Leavers are either bankbench MPs or no longer in Parliament; UKIP has disintegrated. That's why.
The piece of yours which I quoted was all about your view that the promises were unrealistic. As it happens I agree with you, but it wasn't just Conservatives on that side of the debate. For that matter, the Tory Remainers were very explicit about the difficulties, but got little or no support from Labour.
Edit: Mind you, I don't think anyone, on any side of the debate, thought that the EU would try to land us with a €100bn bill for having the temerity to want to leave.
That's true: we underestimated just how headbanging the EU really are!
Catalonian banks will emerge. There will be disruption , for sure. This is not Brexit as Catalonia can have tariff free trade with the EU just like before. It won't insist on doing their own trade deals.
Catalonia has its industries. It should leave the country run by fascists.
Catalonian banks will emerge. There will be disruption , for sure. This is not Brexit as Catalonia can have tariff free trade with the EU just like before. It won't insist on doing their own trade deals.
Catalonia has its industries. It should leave the country run by fascists.
La Caixa is a Catalan bank. Caixa is a Catalan word. Banc Sabadell, which shifted to Alicante yesterday is also a Catalan bank - Sabadell is a town just outside Barcelona. The banks HQed in Barcelona are all Catalan, they were founded there and until now had no reason to leave. And each one that shifts its HQ, along with all the businesses that do the same, means less corporation tax for an independent Catalonia.
Catalonian banks will emerge. There will be disruption , for sure. This is not Brexit as Catalonia can have tariff free trade with the EU just like before. It won't insist on doing their own trade deals.
Catalonia has its industries. It should leave the country run by fascists.
Hmm... I think you're getting a bit ahead of the actualité there. The EU countries are not going to recognise the legitimacy of the Catalonia as an independent state anytime soon. Even if some of them wanted to, Spain would veto any deal at all between the EU and Catalonia. Banks which don't have a legitimate, internationally recognised central bank behind them are not going to be able to operate. The only way there can be trade between the EU and Catalonia is under the Spanish national jurisdiction, with VAT paid to the Spanish government. And so on and so on - this is Brexit and Scottish independence on steroids with a blanket of illegality as well.
Catalonia can have tariff free trade with the EU just like before.
Really? You don’t think someone might veto their application?
As usual you jumped the gun. Who said they have to be a member ? I thought the UK wanted tariff free trade with the EU but also wanted to negotiate with other countries. Catalonia may not want that.
Leave it open on the Uk side - let the EU police the other side.
If they want to crucify ROI by closing it or inspecting every lorry then meh it's an EU issue.
Simples.
Forgive me, I have't attempted to get my head around the border issue, but....
Are you suggesting no UK border control at all?
Anyone in the EU/Ireland can walk/drive/import anything they want into NI - and then into GB?
Can't they do that now?
But we are in the EU. Isn't the whole idea of Brexit is that we are leaving the EU. Remember, you guys wanted it. So did the DUP.
Classic deflection technique there Surbiton.
The point you are wilfully ignoring is that we have an open border with Ireland now and are happy with it. Why should we be any less happy with it because we have left the EU? Absolutely nothing will have changed on the Irish side but for some reason you seem to think they will suddenly become awash with drugs, immigrants and contraband that we have to keep out. Given that Ireland is not in Schengen people cannot just walk or drive in there now, from the EU or anywhere else. Again nothing will change.
A good game to play - now that everyone’s bored of coomenting on my piece (boo, sob!) - is to list writers, singers, actors, books etc who are hugely overrated.
RADIOHEAD
God yes. Pretty hard to beat that
I liked Martin Amiss's early material. The Rachel Papers was good as was Money. He wrote some brilliant newspaper pieces. I have a book of his called The Moronic Inferno. It contains some truly exceptional pieces about crime in the US. I remember one about a child killer mystery which had the campaign refrain repeated through it "never go with strangers " and which finished , "but they do."
Catalonian banks will emerge. There will be disruption , for sure. This is not Brexit as Catalonia can have tariff free trade with the EU just like before. It won't insist on doing their own trade deals.
Catalonia has its industries. It should leave the country run by fascists.
Mrs Stodge told me when we were last in Spain a lot of the Spanish banks were basically local co-operatives and credit unions so it seems likely an independent Catalonia will have a banking system and it's a significant contributor to Spanish GDP.
I do think the actions of the Spanish Government, courts and the King have inflamed and polarised attitudes but are, if you like, the traditional response of a centralised political culture to separatist regional noises.
Earlier in the week, however, the EU made it clear an independent Catalonia would be outside the Union - perhaps we can conclude our first FTA with Barcelona.
Leave it open on the Uk side - let the EU police the other side.
If they want to crucify ROI by closing it or inspecting every lorry then meh it's an EU issue.
Simples.
Forgive me, I have't attempted to get my head around the border issue, but....
Are you suggesting no UK border control at all?
Anyone in the EU/Ireland can walk/drive/import anything they want into NI - and then into GB?
Can't they do that now?
But we are in the EU. Isn't the whole idea of Brexit is that we are leaving the EU. Remember, you guys wanted it. So did the DUP.
Classic deflection technique there Surbiton.
The point you are wilfully ignoring is that we have an open border with Ireland now and are happy with it. Why should we be any less happy with it because we have left the EU? Absolutely nothing will have changed on the Irish side but for some reason you seem to think they will suddenly become awash with drugs, immigrants and contraband that we have to keep out. Given that Ireland is not in Schengen people cannot just walk or drive in there now, from the EU or anywhere else. Again nothing will change.
The reason that we can no longer have an open border is fairly obvious. We voted to leave the EU, and to this government has decided that means leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.
If we choose to end a happy arrangement, it is not the EU's fault.
The reason that we can no longer have an open border is fairly obvious. We voted to leave the EU, and to this government has decided that means leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.
If we choose to end a happy arrangement, it is not the EU's fault.
That may be, but if what you are saying is that it's impossible to avoid border checks, then there's not a lot to discuss on the matter, and our EU friends shouldn't be pretending that it has to be sorted before other important matters can be discussed.
I don’t really like “Imagine”. Much prefer “Here Comes the Sun”.
"Imagine" is a dreary dirge in comparison
Imagine is a dreary dirge, full stop. But then the Beatles, and Lennon, are over-rated. They had the good fortune to be the best among the first of their type (and also to split before they got tired). That novelty was critical to their reputation historically. Had someone else got there first, they wouldn't be rated half so highly.
Possibly. I have always wondered about Bob Dylan myself. I can just imagine his Greatest Hits album being titled "Bob Dylan recites some lyrics" because he cannot sing for toffee.
I'm no fan of Dylan but he's a much better poet than singer. To the extent that his works need music at all, they'd be better sung by someone else.
Obviously no fan! With the exception of All Along the Watchtoower it is difficult to think of one improved by anyone else. Make you feel My Love by Adele, possibly.
The Byrds and The Flying Burrito Brothers did some good Dylan covers.
Catalonian banks will emerge. There will be disruption , for sure. This is not Brexit as Catalonia can have tariff free trade with the EU just like before. It won't insist on doing their own trade deals.
Catalonia has its industries. It should leave the country run by fascists.
Mrs Stodge told me when we were last in Spain a lot of the Spanish banks were basically local co-operatives and credit unions so it seems likely an independent Catalonia will have a banking system and it's a significant contributor to Spanish GDP.
I do think the actions of the Spanish Government, courts and the King have inflamed and polarised attitudes but are, if you like, the traditional response of a centralised political culture to separatist regional noises.
Earlier in the week, however, the EU made it clear an independent Catalonia would be outside the Union - perhaps we can conclude our first FTA with Barcelona.
But I don't think Barcelona will do a deal with us. As I said, they could do a Norway or a Switzerland, or an Iceland, Turkey. They would not want to leave the single market and customs union.
We have only talked about as if only Catalonia will suffer if Spanish banks leave. The Spanish banks will also suffer from lack of Catalonian business which local banks will take up. After all, Catalonia is the most industrialised part of Spain.
The reason that we can no longer have an open border is fairly obvious. We voted to leave the EU, and to this government has decided that means leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.
If we choose to end a happy arrangement, it is not the EU's fault.
That may be, but if what you are saying is that it's impossible to avoid border checks, then there's not a lot to discuss on the matter, and our EU friends shouldn't be pretending that it has to be sorted before other important matters can be discussed.
It's not impossible, but there needs to be a reality-based agreement. The UK has yet to make any concrete proposals. It has floated some ideas, one of which at least David Davis himself dismissed as blue sky thinking.
The reason that we can no longer have an open border is fairly obvious. We voted to leave the EU, and to this government has decided that means leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.
If we choose to end a happy arrangement, it is not the EU's fault.
That may be, but if what you are saying is that it's impossible to avoid border checks, then there's not a lot to discuss on the matter, and our EU friends shouldn't be pretending that it has to be sorted before other important matters can be discussed.
Both sides have already committed to no border infrastructure. This leaves two choices: NI stays in the customs union and GB doesn't, or the whole UK stays in the customs union.
Either the DUP or the global Brexiteers have to give way or we'll head onward towards the cliff edge with no sign of a transition deal.
Leave it open on the Uk side - let the EU police the other side.
If they want to crucify ROI by closing it or inspecting every lorry then meh it's an EU issue.
Simples.
Under WTO rules (without a FTA with the EU) we could not just have an open border with one customs area, we would have to have no checks elsewhere.
Dan Hannan may be happy, but few others methinks.
Yep, it's WTO rule number one - no discriminatory behaviour in the absence of an agreement. If the EU did not police the Irish border it would have to do the same with all its external borders. I suppose it could just shepherd all the resulting migrants to Ireland and let them cross into the UK!
Cyclefree's article is the classic Brit Brexit opinion. We will leave the EU and the terms on which we will leave will also be decided by us.
"A wiser EU would understand that a Britain leaving in chaos will do nothing for the EU’s image or claim that it is a force for stability."
It seems that it is for a Briton to decide what is wise for the EU. Apparently, they are not capable of taking that decision themselves. If Britain does not get what it wants, as it will not, it will blame the EU for not getting what it wanted.
We forget Britain was already having the cake and eating it. It had the rebate, it had the opt-outs. No other country had those privileges as extensively as we did. We were never really a member of the EU. All we wanted was tariff free access. Now we will soon get upset if it is not served on a plate.
Maybe, we have not grown out of our post-imperial attitude. The world owes us our privileges.
The rebate was not having its cake and eating it. The rebate was making sure we weren't providing all the cake for everyone else to eat. When you consider that even with the rebate we are net contributors to the tune of almost £9 billion a year that is a hell of a lot of free cake we are giving to the rest of the EU.
Nor were we the only country with opt outs - Denmark, Poland and Ireland all had formal opt outs from sections of the treaties. In addition 6 countries in addition to Poland have chosen to ignore their commitments for joining the Eurozoone and have made it clear they will not join at any time in the foreseeable future. The idea that the UK is the only one wanting exceptions from EU rules is misleading rubbish.
Leave it open on the Uk side - let the EU police the other side.
If they want to crucify ROI by closing it or inspecting every lorry then meh it's an EU issue.
Simples.
Forgive me, I have't attempted to get my head around the border issue, but....
Are you suggesting no UK border control at all?
Anyone in the EU/Ireland can walk/drive/import anything they want into NI - and then into GB?
Can't they do that now?
But we are in the EU. Isn't the whole idea of Brexit is that we are leaving the EU. Remember, you guys wanted it. So did the DUP.
Classic deflection technique there Surbiton.
The point you are wilfully ignoring is that we have an open border with Ireland now and are happy with it. Why should we be any less happy with it because we have left the EU? Absolutely nothing will have changed on the Irish side but for some reason you seem to think they will suddenly become awash with drugs, immigrants and contraband that we have to keep out. Given that Ireland is not in Schengen people cannot just walk or drive in there now, from the EU or anywhere else. Again nothing will change.
The reason that we can no longer have an open border is fairly obvious. We voted to leave the EU, and to this government has decided that means leaving the Single Market and Customs Union.
If we choose to end a happy arrangement, it is not the EU's fault.
+1
We are the ones that are leaving and for some reason the Brexit lunatics on here seem to think everyone needs to be prostrating in front of us. Why?
I don’t really like “Imagine”. Much prefer “Here Comes the Sun”.
"Imagine" is a dreary dirge in comparison
Imagine is a dreary dirge, full stop. But then the Beatles, and Lennon, are over-rated. They had the good fortune to be the best among the first of their type (and also to split before they got tired). That novelty was critical to their reputation historically. Had someone else got there first, they wouldn't be rated half so highly.
Possibly. I have always wondered about Bob Dylan myself. I can just imagine his Greatest Hits album being titled "Bob Dylan recites some lyrics" because he cannot sing for toffee.
I'm no fan of Dylan but he's a much better poet than singer. To the extent that his works need music at all, they'd be better sung by someone else.
Obviously no fan! With the exception of All Along the Watchtoower it is difficult to think of one improved by anyone else. Make you feel My Love by Adele, possibly.
The Byrds and The Flying Burrito Brothers did some good Dylan covers.
Indeed they did. There are many other decent ones, by a vast range of artists from many genres. They just don't sound "right" though, and it is difficult to say they are "better".
Cyclefree's article is the classic Brit Brexit opinion. We will leave the EU and the terms on which we will leave will also be decided by us.
"A wiser EU would understand that a Britain leaving in chaos will do nothing for the EU’s image or claim that it is a force for stability."
It seems that it is for a Briton to decide what is wise for the EU. Apparently, they are not capable of taking that decision themselves. If Britain does not get what it wants, as it will not, it will blame the EU for not getting what it wanted.
We forget Britain was already having the cake and eating it. It had the rebate, it had the opt-outs. No other country had those privileges as extensively as we did. We were never really a member of the EU. All we wanted was tariff free access. Now we will soon get upset if it is not served on a plate.
Maybe, we have not grown out of our post-imperial attitude. The world owes us our privileges.
The rebate was not having its cake and eating it. The rebate was making sure we weren't providing all the cake for everyone else to eat. When you consider that even with the rebate we are net contributors to the tune of almost £9 billion a year that is a hell of a lot of free cake we are giving to the rest of the EU.
Nor were we the only country with opt outs - Denmark, Poland and Ireland all had formal opt outs from sections of the treaties. In addition 6 countries in addition to Poland have chosen to ignore their commitments for joining the Eurozoone and have made it clear they will not join at any time in the foreseeable future. The idea that the UK is the only one wanting exceptions from EU rules is misleading rubbish.
Germany must have a terrible deal. No opt outs and the biggest contributor. Or is it not that simple?
Leave it open on the Uk side - let the EU police the other side.
If they want to crucify ROI by closing it or inspecting every lorry then meh it's an EU issue.
Simples.
Under WTO rules (without a FTA with the EU) we could not just have an open border with one customs area, we would have to have no checks elsewhere.
Dan Hannan may be happy, but few others methinks.
Are you telling me every country in the WTO has rigorous border checks ?
Under Most Favoured Nation rules they are obliged to apply the same border rules to all countries, unless there is a specific FTA.
Countries that feel aggreived can apply via the WTO resolution systems for punishment. If we have no FTA with the EU then we have to apply the same border rules with RoI as to the rest of the world.
It's not impossible, but there needs to be a reality-based agreement. The UK has yet to make any concrete proposals. It has floated some ideas, one of which at least David Davis himself dismissed as blue sky thinking.
He didn't dismiss it. He meant that it was imaginative.
However, the main point is that to get any further we need to know what the trade deal if any is going to be. For a starter, are there going to be any tariffs to pay? A rather vital question, if you are trying to agree on the scope and administrative arrangements for customs.
In the circumstances, the UK proposals were as detailed as they could be, in the absence of any progress on any trade deal.
The plain fact is that the EU's position on this is completely irrational. Whether deliberately so or not is hard to say, but it is certainly a very dangerous position from the Irish point of view.
I don’t really like “Imagine”. Much prefer “Here Comes the Sun”.
"Imagine" is a dreary dirge in comparison
Imagine is a dreary dirge, full stop. But then the Beatles, and Lennon, are over-rated. They had the good fortune to be the best among the first of their type (and also to split before they got tired). That novelty was critical to their reputation historically. Had someone else got there first, they wouldn't be rated half so highly.
Possibly. I have always wondered about Bob Dylan myself. I can just imagine his Greatest Hits album being titled "Bob Dylan recites some lyrics" because he cannot sing for toffee.
I'm no fan of Dylan but he's a much better poet than singer. To the extent that his works need music at all, they'd be better sung by someone else.
Obviously no fan! With the exception of All Along the Watchtoower it is difficult to think of one improved by anyone else. Make you feel My Love by Adele, possibly.
The Byrds and The Flying Burrito Brothers did some good Dylan covers.
Got a brilliant album of Joan Baez sings Bob Dylan. It's very good so long as the song is not too sarcastic.
Comments
This is the nightmare scenario in a tory leadership contest which goes to a vote of the members.
Perhaps it is better to be irresponsible and right, than to be responsible and wrong....
As far as I am aware the convention that applies is a UN one, not an EU one. After Brexit nothing will change. Do you think that after Brexit the UK will suddenly "grow a pair"?
Yet they all just sat there like lemons. What I would have paid to see Boris rugby tackle the guy to the ground...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4954720/Ted-Heath-s-key-accuser-paedophile.html
One man understood all that very well indeed: those are pretty much de Gaulle's reasons why we should never have been admitted in the first place.
The endgame.
https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/916272193591529473
Former regional president Artur Mas - who was succeeded by current leader Puigdemont, is in the same party as him (PDeCAT) and who started the separation train rolling - has come out in the Financial Times today and said Catalonia is not ready for independence. It would have been handy if he had said it before now.
The thing to remember is that the separatist alliance in Catalonia is a very broad church. The PDeCAT is a centre-right party with strong roots in the Catalan middle class and business community; the ERC claims to be a socialist party (though it has no interest in solidarity with Spain's poorest communities) and CUP is on the extreme, anarchist left. Beyond independence these parties have absolutely nothing in common and in normal circumstances would be at each others' throats.
Yesterday and today a number of big banks and businesses have started to move their HQs from Barcelona to other parts of Spain in anticipation of an independence declaration next Tuesday. Obviously, they do no want to take any risks about leaving the EU single market or over legal standing and so on. Every bank and business that does this, of course, reduces the tax income available to an independent Catalonia, as well as its credibility as a borrower; and that's before you throw in issues like legal standing. Now, none of this matters to either ERC or to CUP, but to PDeCAT and its voters it is a very big deal indeed.
The Spanish government is now passing legislation that will make it quicker and easier for companies to transfer their HQs out of Catalonia to other parts of Spain. It could just be that it has hit upon a way of fragmenting the independence coalition and of seizing the initiative. Expect independence to still be declared next week, but it will be symbolic and nothing more - it may also accelerate business and capital flight.
The Catalans are not stupid, they are deeply pragmatic. The question a lot of them will be asking themselves is this: wealthy and autonomous inside Spain; a lot poorer, a lot more isolated, but free on the outside? Given the level of self-government they already have, and what is likely to come after all this dies down, I suspect a lot will be having a rethink about the future and concluding that being on the inside might be a lot more appealing than it seemed a few days ago.
Of course, all this depends on the PP not doing something utterly stupid like sending in the troops. As this is the PP, that can never be ruled out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41523941
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/916341216916238337
Leave it open on the Uk side - let the EU police the other side.
If they want to crucify ROI by closing it or inspecting every lorry then meh it's an EU issue.
Simples.
7.83% are liars according to The Kinsey Report.
That's a mandate tbh.
Are you suggesting no UK border control at all?
Anyone in the EU/Ireland can walk/drive/import anything they want into NI - and then into GB?
And see the Independence fall as it fails to get a majority
There is no other way
Why is that, I wonder?
There is no border control.
On the lazy sods and hard yards issue, could you post a succinct summary of your canvassing diary from the campaign? Thanks.
Some leavers probably voted multiple times but post the police brutality I don't think Spain could take a win for granted.
"To preserve the integrity of the single market"......
Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
“No ECJ,” I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of Brexiteers
Foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now
A self-ordained professor’s tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that sovereignty
Is just parliamentary rule
“Sovereignty,” I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now
Edit: Mind you, I don't think anyone, on any side of the debate, thought that the EU would try to land us with a €100bn bill for having the temerity to want to leave.
https://twitter.com/Independent/status/916346711332749312
"A wiser EU would understand that a Britain leaving in chaos will do nothing for the EU’s image or claim that it is a force for stability."
It seems that it is for a Briton to decide what is wise for the EU. Apparently, they are not capable of taking that decision themselves. If Britain does not get what it wants, as it will not, it will blame the EU for not getting what it wanted.
We forget Britain was already having the cake and eating it. It had the rebate, it had the opt-outs. No other country had those privileges as extensively as we did. We were never really a member of the EU. All we wanted was tariff free access. Now we will soon get upset if it is not served on a plate.
Maybe, we have not grown out of our post-imperial attitude. The world owes us our privileges.
Why didn't they do the hard work, researching how likely it would be that people would be attracted to Britain because of our relatively generous non contributory welfare state? Why didn't they try to grow the economy in other ways? Why did they give away part of the rebate? Why didn't they crucify the French over BSE? Why didn't they challenge the moves towards QMV.
Was it because they couldn't be arsed? Or was it because they wanted to rub Britain's nose on diversity? Well either way. This is the consequence.
If you are going for informal proxy votes, you need a much higher threshold than 50% support. You need to show that the substantial majority is on your side. Based on these results, it doesn't look like it.
The numbers roughly match those of the informal 2014 vote. The participation rate is about the same. That time it was a three way question. Given that, the ballots are also about the same. Opinion polls tend to show a bit less than a half to a half support independence.
Catalonia has its industries. It should leave the country run by fascists.
This wasn't made clear to people at the time of the referendum.
UDI cannot work.
Dan Hannan may be happy, but few others methinks.
Why can't Catalonia do a Norway ?
The point you are wilfully ignoring is that we have an open border with Ireland now and are happy with it. Why should we be any less happy with it because we have left the EU? Absolutely nothing will have changed on the Irish side but for some reason you seem to think they will suddenly become awash with drugs, immigrants and contraband that we have to keep out. Given that Ireland is not in Schengen people cannot just walk or drive in there now, from the EU or anywhere else. Again nothing will change.
I liked Martin Amiss's early material. The Rachel Papers was good as was Money. He wrote some brilliant newspaper pieces. I have a book of his called The Moronic Inferno. It contains some truly exceptional pieces about crime in the US. I remember one about a child killer mystery which had the campaign refrain repeated through it "never go with strangers " and which finished , "but they do."
I do think the actions of the Spanish Government, courts and the King have inflamed and polarised attitudes but are, if you like, the traditional response of a centralised political culture to separatist regional noises.
Earlier in the week, however, the EU made it clear an independent Catalonia would be outside the Union - perhaps we can conclude our first FTA with Barcelona.
If we choose to end a happy arrangement, it is not the EU's fault.
https://order-order.com/2017/10/06/shapps-mitchell-plotters-dinner-scheduled-tonight/amp/
We have only talked about as if only Catalonia will suffer if Spanish banks leave. The Spanish banks will also suffer from lack of Catalonian business which local banks will take up. After all, Catalonia is the most industrialised part of Spain.
Either the DUP or the global Brexiteers have to give way or we'll head onward towards the cliff edge with no sign of a transition deal.
Nor were we the only country with opt outs - Denmark, Poland and Ireland all had formal opt outs from sections of the treaties. In addition 6 countries in addition to Poland have chosen to ignore their commitments for joining the Eurozoone and have made it clear they will not join at any time in the foreseeable future. The idea that the UK is the only one wanting exceptions from EU rules is misleading rubbish.
We are the ones that are leaving and for some reason the Brexit lunatics on here seem to think everyone needs to be prostrating in front of us. Why?
And he has not gone silent. Like me he is still pushing the EEA as the best solution.
Countries that feel aggreived can apply via the WTO resolution systems for punishment. If we have no FTA with the EU then we have to apply the same border rules with RoI as to the rest of the world.
However, the main point is that to get any further we need to know what the trade deal if any is going to be. For a starter, are there going to be any tariffs to pay? A rather vital question, if you are trying to agree on the scope and administrative arrangements for customs.
In the circumstances, the UK proposals were as detailed as they could be, in the absence of any progress on any trade deal.
The plain fact is that the EU's position on this is completely irrational. Whether deliberately so or not is hard to say, but it is certainly a very dangerous position from the Irish point of view.