Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
In general yes, but when luck is 'letters falling off the walk' that is out of anyone's hands, though it's her fault she's weak to the point the visual metaphor was so panicking.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The polls were wrong last time on two main points. Jezza reckoned on getting previous non voters to vote. He also concentrated on domestic bread and butter issues like austerity. This worked on a higher proportion of kippers than pundits expected. He largely ignored Brexit in an election fought on that issue.
Brexit is not making progress, storm clouds are gathering and we have an autumn budget brewing. I cannot see it getting better for May. They are selling managerialism but by a manager who no one thinks is up to the job.
The first rule of sales is to believe in the product. You cannot sell something that you believe is rubbish, and May is rubbish.
The nightmare for the Tories is an unexpected government collapse that provokes another sudden election with May in charge. That would put Jezza in no 10.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
I am a Centrist too, but I do understand the appeal of Corbyn, and were I 25 years younger I would be with them.
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
It's time for Boris and Michael Gove as Chancellor. As we are leaving come what may, they should own the entire thing and deliver on the promises they made during the referendum. The EU is desperate for a deal, it should be easy to do one with absolutely none of the downsides and all of the advantages of being in the single market, sunlit uplands await. No excuses, no hiding, no secret briefings; full responsibility.
Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
In general yes, but when luck is 'letters falling off the walk' that is out of anyone's hands, though it's her fault she's weak to the point the visual metaphor was so panicking.
Everyone gets bad luck as well as good luck.
The general assumption is that a change of leader for the Conservatives won't help them much. In the long term perhaps not but in the short term it probably would. The public are minded to give everyone a fair chance. If they choose someone who can ride that - big if - we could see expectations confounded.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The issue.
Brexit the job.
The first rule of sales is to believe in the product. You cannot sell something that you believe is rubbish, and May is rubbish.
The nightmare for the Tories is an unexpected government collapse that provokes another sudden election with May in charge. That would put Jezza in no 10.
The than 1997.
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
When did this Labour party exist, out of interest? The equivalents of Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell were accusing Clement Attlee of betrayal and demanding his resignation as soon as the 1945 general election was won. The Wilson and Callaghan governments were held in utter contempt by the Corbyn/McDonnell faction, while we all know what they thought about the Blair/Brown years.
Corbyn is not a radical. He is a reactionary conservative, albeit of the left.
I agree. His solutions - for what they are - are rooted in the 1960s and 70s. He made up his mind then and nothing will ever change it.
I reckon that will force more Leavers to wanting to oust Mrs May.
If the Leadbangers want her out, I really should be wanting her to stay.
That would be a pretty big concession, and there are enough who oppose any form of concession (they don't seem to understand what a negotiation is any more than some who argue the EU won't concede or offer anything, however slight) that yep, the trouble is back on. Maybe Boris will say he cannot remain as foreign secretary and support that, challenge on. (Recognising the tory process does not require a declared challenger, )
Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
In general yes, but when luck is 'letters falling off the walk' that is out of anyone's hands, though it's her fault she's weak to the point the visual metaphor was so panicking.
Why have letters that are able to fall off in the first place. Yes the letters falling off is not Theresa May's fault, but scrimping on the conference presentation was a choice made by the Conservative party.
Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
It's time for Boris and Michael Gove as Chancellor. As we are leaving come what may, they should own the entire thing and deliver on the promises they made during the referendum. The EU is desperate for a deal, it should be easy to do one with absolutely none of the downsides and all of the advantages of being in the single market, sunlit uplands await. No excuses, no hiding, no secret briefings; full responsibility.
I think that the only way for the Tories to get out of their current mess is to have a true beliver in Brexit in charge.
The current strategy of having Remainers implementing Leave is not working, they annoy both the continuity Remainers and also the hardcore Leavers. There is no middle ground in this Tory party, they need a leader who can get off the fence.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The issue.
Brexit the job.
The first rule of sales is to believe in the product. You cannot sell something that you believe is rubbish, and May is rubbish.
The nightmare for the Tories is an unexpected government collapse that provokes another sudden election with May in charge. That would put Jezza in no 10.
The than 1997.
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
When did this Labour party exist, out of interest? The equivalents of Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell were accusing Clement Attlee of betrayal and demanding his resignation as soon as the 1945 general election was won. The Wilson and Callaghan governments were held in utter contempt by the Corbyn/McDonnell faction, while we all know what they thought about the Blair/Brown years.
Corbyn is not a radical. He is a reactionary conservative, albeit of the left.
I agree. His solutions - for what they are - are rooted in the 1960s and 70s. He made up his mind then and nothing will ever change it.
That's always been my biggest issue with him. The moments where flexibility is shown are when I find him more reasonable, even as it undermines his legend as the man who stubbornly sticks to principle, who is different to other politicians. A vision, yes, that'd be nice, but pms do need to be flexible.
Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
In general yes, but when luck is 'letters falling off the walk' that is out of anyone's hands, though it's her fault she's weak to the point the visual metaphor was so panicking.
Why have letters that are able to fall off in the first place. Yes the letters falling off is not Theresa May's fault, but scrimping on the conference presentation was a choice made by the Conservative party.
It was bizarre. Next time paint the slogan on the wall!
I reckon that will force more Leavers to wanting to oust Mrs May.
If the Leadbangers want her out, I really should be wanting her to stay.
That would be a pretty big concession, and there are enough who oppose any form of concession (they don't seem to understand what a negotiation is any more than some who argue the EU won't concede or offer anything, however slight) that yep, the trouble is back on. Maybe Boris will say he cannot remain as foreign secretary and support that, challenge on. (Recognising the tory process does not require a declared challenger, )
The problem for Boris is that he is on the record countless times saying that EU citizens should have exactly the same rights post-Brexit as they would pre-Brexit.
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
All they'll say is that they have negotiated something with the EU to change that, knowing that in reality they can do much as they want within the EU without anything much changing.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
I think Marina Hyde got it right the other day when she said it was like watching two drunks fighting in a puddle. We have never had such a lamentably poor choice of leaders - and at the one time when the country absolutely needs competent leadership, and a clear, realistic vision for the future.
That's the problem with reducing choice and competition: when your only alternative to Theresa May is Corbyn, and the only alternative to Corbyn is Theresa May, not only does the reduced competition damage the competitors (as we know from sporting events - playing against only very poor teams or one other team makes you a poorer team yourself), but those who dislike May will subconsciously start to force themselves to like Cobryn - related to the "halo effect" (which makes us want to believe that everything is straightforwardly "good" or "bad".)
- If we don't want May, we must want Corbyn, therefore he is better than May, therefore we must make ourselves see things as good... and with sufficient confirmation bias, we can convince ourselves of anything.
It's a natural fallout of a system designed to minimize competition (to the benefit of the incumbent Big Two). It's closely related to the issues of nationalised/monopolistic industries which the Tories recognised in the Eighties - but the producer capture becomes untreatable when the producers are producing the laws around the producer capture. Monopolists remain monopolists and damage their own quality for themselves and those they "serve", and there's no way out.
Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
In general yes, but when luck is 'letters falling off the walk' that is out of anyone's hands, though it's her fault she's weak to the point the visual metaphor was so panicking.
Everyone gets bad luck as well as good luck.
The general assumption is that a change of leader for the Conservatives won't help them much. In the long term perhaps not but in the short term it probably would. The public are minded to give everyone a fair chance. If they choose someone who can ride that - big if - we could see expectations confounded.
The psychology of Luck is worth studying, and the appropriately named Dr Wiseman is a good place to start:
It is how one reacts to events that makes a person lucky, or unlucky, not whether the events happen in the first place. Luck is an attitude of mind.
This is what Napoleon meant when he wanted lucky generals. He wanted people with the flexibility to manoeuvre as events unfolded, and to create opportunities.
May is unlucky because she lacks that flexibility. It is why she is a poor negotiator too.
I reckon that will force more Leavers to wanting to oust Mrs May.
If the Leadbangers want her out, I really should be wanting her to stay.
That would be a pretty big concession, and there are enough who oppose any form of concession (they don't seem to understand what a negotiation is any more than some who argue the EU won't concede or offer anything, however slight) that yep, the trouble is back on. Maybe Boris will say he cannot remain as foreign secretary and support that, challenge on. (Recognising the tory process does not require a declared challenger, )
The problem for Boris is that he is on the record countless times saying that EU citizens should have exactly the same rights post-Brexit as they would pre-Brexit.
He'd have to be pretty shameless to change tune then
I reckon that will force more Leavers to wanting to oust Mrs May.
If the Leadbangers want her out, I really should be wanting her to stay.
That would be a pretty big concession, and there are enough who oppose any form of concession (they don't seem to understand what a negotiation is any more than some who argue the EU won't concede or offer anything, however slight) that yep, the trouble is back on. Maybe Boris will say he cannot remain as foreign secretary and support that, challenge on. (Recognising the tory process does not require a declared challenger, )
The problem for Boris is that he is on the record countless times saying that EU citizens should have exactly the same rights post-Brexit as they would pre-Brexit.
Boris has no principles and hasn't previously been unduly troubled by his previous utterances. He will be driven by tactics and self advantage, not principle.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
I think Marina Hyde got it right the other day when she said it was like watching two drunks fighting in a puddle. We have never had such a lamentably poor choice of leaders - and at the one time when the country absolutely needs competent leadership, and a clear, realistic vision for the future.
That's the problem with reducing choice and competition: when your only alternative to Theresa May is Corbyn, and the only alternative to Corbyn is Theresa May, not only does the reduced competition damage the competitors (as we know from sporting events - playing against only very poor teams or one other team makes you a poorer team yourself), but those who dislike May will subconsciously start to force themselves to like Cobryn - related to the "halo effect" (which makes us want to believe that everything is straightforwardly "good" or "bad".)
- If we don't want May, we must want Corbyn, therefore he is better than May, therefore we must make ourselves see things as good... and with sufficient confirmation bias, we can convince ourselves of anything.
It's a natural fallout of a system designed to minimize competition (to the benefit of the incumbent Big Two). It's closely related to the issues of nationalised/monopolistic industries which the Tories recognised in the Eighties - but the producer capture becomes untreatable when the producers are producing the laws around the producer capture. Monopolists remain monopolists and damage their own quality for themselves and those they "serve", and there's no way out.
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
All they'll say is that they have negotiated something with the EU to change that, knowing that in reality they can do much as they want within the EU without anything much changing.
You can’t impose capital controls (freedom of movement of capital) or give state aid (look at how Ireland and Luxembourg are being pursued by the EU) or stop companies setting up in low tax jurisdictions to sell into the UK or nationalise without compensation.
If BINO is the option chosen by Labour, they will end up disappointing many of those who think they will get rid of the neo-liberal consensus. In many ways, the EU is an expression of it. It has at times been rather more concerned with protecting the rights of bondolders than of ordinary working people losing their jobs.
Does Labour really understand what the 4 freedoms at the heart of the Single Market really mean?
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
The nightmare for the Tories is an unexpected government collapse that provokes another sudden election with May in charge. That would put Jezza in no 10.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
I am a Centrist too, but I do understand the appeal of Corbyn, and were I 25 years younger I would be with them.
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
There was a time when I too would have been with Corbyn but listening to your earlier clip at the football match where he used the words 'working class' three times all I could see was a 70's reboot.
I work with film crews who include electricians riggers carpenters set builders loaders camera assistants grips runners coffee makers etc etc. All skilled to a greater or lesser extent and none that I can think of who would like to be described as 'Working Class'.
The man's an anachronism and for someone like me who has always voted Labour (except for once when I voted Paddy after shooting his PPB) and who supports his pacifism it's given me a dilemma. I think I'll abstain.
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
In opposition Labour just needs to position itself as slightly less pro-Brexit than the Tories, in order to justify voting against whatever path the Tories take whilst keeping maximum voter support on board.
If they find themselves in government, the honeymoon period will give them lots of opportunity to change tack, once they "see the books" and hear the advice from officials.
If they are really lucky and need LibDem or SNP support, the "price" is clearly a second referendum.
The bbc online latest update on catalonia suggested there may be signs if stepping back from the brink? Wording from the Catalan government on what they plan on Tuesday is apparently vague, which might include stepping back from the brink? Someone has to
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
All they'll say is that they have negotiated something with the EU to change that, knowing that in reality they can do much as they want within the EU without anything much changing.
You can’t impose capital controls (freedom of movement of capital) or give state aid (look at how Ireland and Luxembourg are being pursued by the EU) or stop companies setting up in low tax jurisdictions to sell into the UK or nationalise without compensation.
If BINO is the option chosen by Labour, they will end up disappointing many of those who think they will get rid of the neo-liberal consensus. In many ways, the EU is an expression of it. It has at times been rather more concerned with protecting the rights of bondolders than of ordinary working people losing their jobs.
Does Labour really understand what the 4 freedoms at the heart of the Single Market really mean?
My guess is that there is a small percentage of Labour members, fewer MPs and even fewer voters who would raise hell about not smashing the neo-liberal consensus in the first term of a Labour government. They'd be looking for positive signs of movement to the left and those can easily be delivered inside the single market and customs union.
I reckon that will force more Leavers to wanting to oust Mrs May.
If the Leadbangers want her out, I really should be wanting her to stay.
That would be a pretty big concession, and there are enough who oppose any form of concession (they don't seem to understand what a negotiation is any more than some who argue the EU won't concede or offer anything, however slight) that yep, the trouble is back on. Maybe Boris will say he cannot remain as foreign secretary and support that, challenge on. (Recognising the tory process does not require a declared challenger, )
The problem for Boris is that he is on the record countless times saying that EU citizens should have exactly the same rights post-Brexit as they would pre-Brexit.
He'd have to be pretty shameless to change tune then
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
Brexit is not the same shibboleth to Labour. Corbyn and McDonnell would be willing to concede on the Single Market, in order to get enough support for the bulk of their domestic agenda. Brexit is a second order issue to them. In time they may well get frustrated by the EU, but they would leave it to the EU to pick that fight.
Theresa May has never tried to lead. On luck: Gary Player noted that the harder he practised the luckier he got. Theresa May didn't practise and so couldn't use the luck she got.
Time for someone who is willing to try.
In general yes, but when luck is 'letters falling off the walk' that is out of anyone's hands, though it's her fault she's weak to the point the visual metaphor was so panicking.
Everyone gets bad luck as well as good luck.
The general assumption is that a change of leader for the Conservatives won't help them much. In the long term perhaps not but in the short term it probably would. The public are minded to give everyone a fair chance. If they choose someone who can ride that - big if - we could see expectations confounded.
The psychology of Luck is worth studying, and the appropriately named Dr Wiseman is a good place to start:
It is how one reacts to events that makes a person lucky, or unlucky, not whether the events happen in the first place. Luck is an attitude of mind.
This is what Napoleon meant when he wanted lucky generals. He wanted people with the flexibility to manoeuvre as events unfolded, and to create opportunities.
May is unlucky because she lacks that flexibility. It is why she is a poor negotiator too.
Good and bad luck really do exist. Meticulous planning and flexibility obviously matter, but great careers have been cut short by a horse throwing a rider, or a jealous underling murdering his superior.
The EU has got what it wants, if this is the case: the UK will not be able to subsequently legislate away the rights that it guarantees to EU citizens in any deal signed with the EU.
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
Brexit is not the same shibboleth to Labour. Corbyn and McDonnell would be willing to concede on the Single Market, in order to get enough support for the bulk of their domestic agenda. Brexit is a second order issue to them. In time they may well get frustrated by the EU, but they would leave it to the EU to pick that fight.
You really do seem to have the Corbyn sickness bad; with all the zealotry of a convert....
Of course Labour are saying lots of things to lots of people in order to drag up enough support.
Some of them are outright lies, like Rayner the other day on Question Time about the numbers of poorer students at university.
On Corbyn. Official Labour Party policies are mostly of the social democratic stamp. I could support, or at least live with, the bulk of them. My worry is Jeremy Corbyn's famous lack of discipline. He seems to think his manifesto was just things to say to win the vote, rather than commitments. I also don't trust John McConnell an inch.
On the Conservative Party and Brexit, our header writer summed it up perfectly on a previous post - even if he was referring to the EU rather than the UK government and voters: a complete and perhaps willful inability to understand and accommodate the reality of Brexit. We have three relatively clear choices for Brexit, all of which are humiliating for us, in different ways:
- "WTO", which is the absence of a solution, rather than a solution. It will probably damage us quite significantly. It is Brexit failure, not Brexit success, when most Leavers and Remainers would want success. More importantly, I don't think this a sustainable option. We might crash out but we would quickly look to get back into the EU fold.
- "EEA" where we sign up to everything the EU asks of us, but retain much of the status quo. As the referendum was carried on the premise on us taking back control, a version of what we had before, that sees us with less influence over our affairs than before, doesn't compute.
- Return to full membership of the EU. The one hard fact of the referendum is that we rejected this option.
It is not surprising that Mrs May denies the reality of Brexit and rejects all these humiliating choices, although I think she does now understand the real position. What the Conservative Party needs is a leader that can convincingly declare sovereignty and sign up to the EU agenda in the form of the EEA or equivalent, to make the UK into a client of the EU, while assuring people that it is all in the name of taking control. Boris Johnson in his prime might have got away with it, but I think he's past it now. The alternative is to allow failure to happen first and then people will demand, sort this out.
"Neither immigration nor European Courts would be non negotiatable for example."
If so, will that not be seen as a defeat for the EU? People may even ask why it wasn't offered and been more acceptable if it had been offered when Cameron pretended to re-negotiate.
Hmm ... I may have answered my only question there.
I think he means for a Labour govt. not the EU - ie FOM and the ECJ pretty much stay the same as now.
The EU has got what it wants, if this is the case: the UK will not be able to subsequently legislate away the rights that it guarantees to EU citizens in any deal signed with the EU.
The UK has got what it wants as well - no direct ECJ oversight - which was a ridiculous demand.
The EU has got what it wants, if this is the case: the UK will not be able to subsequently legislate away the rights that it guarantees to EU citizens in any deal signed with the EU.
The UK has got what it wants as well - no direct ECJ oversight - which was a ridiculous demand.
It was a demand made with an end in sight. Very smart negotiating. It also sounds like we are going to end up paying a £40bn to £50bn divorce bill. Where the UK may get some payback is on the Irish border. We shall see.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
I am a Centrist too, but I do understand the appeal of Corbyn, and were I 25 years younger I would be with them.
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
Staying in SM/CU would be hugely beneficial to me, my business and my immediate family, in the short term. We're comfortably middle class. I own a business (admittedly my EU related transactions are probably less than 5%, a good amount of which is Ireland), OH is a lawyer, parents are semi-retired with pensions.
However, it will I fear do little or nothing to address the structural issues we as a country face. Nor for a large number of those who voted Leave.
And not addressing our entirely freedom of movement based growth would only be the first of those. It because that is also a cultural shibboleth (immigration) as well as an economic quandary, it will be tremendously controversial.
I voted Leave to regain sovereignty over our laws, to connect our own political system with the reality outside metropolitan areas, and to equip us as a nation for the next century. SM/CU doesn't quite cut it - perhaps it could be accompanied by tremendous renewal in the form of constitutional restructuring, reform of welfare, huge small builder deregulation, etc, but I fear vested interests (including MPs) will stymy that.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
I am a Centrist too, but I do understand the appeal of Corbyn, and were I 25 years younger I would be with them.
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
My impression was that the sides were not far apart on that issue in any case.
It may be relevant that the ECJ isn't a substitute for national courts even in the EU. The ECJ provides judgments as a service to national courts but it is up the national courts to apply and enforce that judgment. The only sanction the ECJ has, I believe, is through the EU Commission which can take out an action against national governments. It's a blunt instrument and isn't often used. So this arrangement could by quite close to the ECJ's normal modus operandi.
The EU has got what it wants, if this is the case: the UK will not be able to subsequently legislate away the rights that it guarantees to EU citizens in any deal signed with the EU.
The UK has got what it wants as well - no direct ECJ oversight - which was a ridiculous demand.
It was a demand made with an end in sight. Very smart negotiating. It also sounds like we are going to end up paying a £40bn to £50bn divorce bill. Where the UK may get some payback is on the Irish border. We shall see.
Shurely shome mishtake? William has been telling us how the Irish border is the issue that is going to end up with us joining the Euro, the EurArmy etc etc
Talks between the Labour Party and EU Brexit negotiators have intensified as fears grow on the Continent that the Conservatives may lose power to Jeremy Corbyn. Brussels has “significantly” increased back-room talks with Labour in an attempt to guarantee that promises made by the Tory negotiating team would be upheld in the event of a change of government, sources told The Daily Telegraph.
An unnamed source said: “Corbyn is beginning to be taken seriously in Brussels. People didn’t quite know what he wants or what he thinks but that is changing.”
Surely Labour are not bound by Tory promises?. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
Staying in Customs Union and Single Market, while establishing the residency of our EU migrants does work as a solution, and sorts the NI border too.
Kipper apoplexy guaranteed though.
That would suit me. But the difficulty I have with this is that both Corbyn and McDonnell have gone on record saying that they don’t want to be in the Single Market because, as Corbyn has made clear, EU rules would stop him doing a lot of things he would like to do.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
All they'll say is that they have negotiated something with the EU to change that, knowing that in reality they can do much as they want within the EU without anything much changing.
You can’t impose capital controls (freedom of movement of capital) or give state aid (look at how Ireland and Luxembourg are being pursued by the EU) or stop companies setting up in low tax jurisdictions to sell into the UK or nationalise without compensation.
If BINO is the option chosen by Labour, they will end up disappointing many of those who think they will get rid of the neo-liberal consensus. In many ways, the EU is an expression of it. It has at times been rather more concerned with protecting the rights of bondolders than of ordinary working people losing their jobs.
Does Labour really understand what the 4 freedoms at the heart of the Single Market really mean?
My guess is that there is a small percentage of Labour members, fewer MPs and even fewer voters who would raise hell about not smashing the neo-liberal consensus in the first term of a Labour government. They'd be looking for positive signs of movement to the left and those can easily be delivered inside the single market and customs union.
But the ones who do care about smashing the neo-liberal consensus are now leading the party and running its press operation.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
I think Marina Hyde got it right the other day when she said it was like watching two drunks fighting in a puddle. We have never had such a lamentably poor choice of leaders - and at the one time when the country absolutely needs competent leadership, and a clear, realistic vision for the future.
That's the problem with reducing choice and competition: when your only alternative to Theresa May is Corbyn, and the only alternative to Corbyn is Theresa May, not only does the reduced competition damage the competitors (as we know from sporting events - playing against only very poor teams or one other team makes you a poorer team yourself), but those who dislike May will subconsciously start to force themselves to like Cobryn - related to the "halo effect" (which makes us want to believe that everything is straightforwardly "good" or "bad".)
- If we don't want May, we must want Corbyn, therefore he is better than May, therefore we must make ourselves see things as good... and with sufficient confirmation bias, we can convince ourselves of anything.
It's a natural fallout of a system designed to minimize competition (to the benefit of the incumbent Big Two). It's closely related to the issues of nationalised/monopolistic industries which the Tories recognised in the Eighties - but the producer capture becomes untreatable when the producers are producing the laws around the producer capture. Monopolists remain monopolists and damage their own quality for themselves and those they "serve", and there's no way out.
Well that's depressing.
Sorry - the only way to get competition is to reduce the threshold of entry, which requires a PR-style system. But to reduce the threshold of entry exposes those in possession to risk of loss, which would be irrational (cf the confirmation bias arguments against change of those in possession).
Essentially, you can look on FPTP as The One Ring - it gives promise of complete power to those in possession, but is almost unmasterable, but it is beyond the will of any mortal to voluntarily throw it away. You pretty much have to stumble into change by chance.
A serious point. From where is the EU going to rustle up a £10b annual sum to replace our contribution? Even if we pay a lump sum settlement, it won't last forever.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
I am a Centrist too, but I do understand the appeal of Corbyn, and were I 25 years younger I would be with them.
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
Surely if a party's ideas are good they should be good to us at any age?
A serious point. From where is the EU going to rustle up a £10b annual sum to replace our contribution? Even if we pay a lump sum settlement, it won't last forever.
It's not really very much money in the context of the size of the EU's economy.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure. Thornberry is a good campaigner, but Corbyn needs to stay for longer. The rebuilding of Labour as a radical party willing to scrap the neo-liberalism that both ends of the political spectrum have turned against is not yet finished. Labour is regaining its soul at the same time as the Tories are losing their own.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
I am a Centrist too, but I do understand the appeal of Corbyn, and were I 25 years younger I would be with them.
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
Surely if a party's ideas are good they should be good to us at any age?
I simply meant that if I were on the wrong end of the economy and housing market, as most young people are, I am sure I would see things differently. When I was in my 20s, a reasonably secure career path and property ownership, even in London, were achievable goals.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
A serious point. From where is the EU going to rustle up a £10b annual sum to replace our contribution? Even if we pay a lump sum settlement, it won't last forever.
Depends on what the projected costs at present are for I suppose - incorporating new members must cost a lot, so if they are planning in the next 1 years to get a few members, maybe they'd be asked to wait a bit.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
I've heard a lot of things said by British nationalists about the French - usually similar to "they always put their own interests first" (once even as the sneerer was about to board a flight to New York) and "they smell" - but this is the first time I've heard it said that they're more mercenary and willing to sell the family silver than the Brits.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
I am a Centrist too, but I do understand the appeal of Corbyn, and were I 25 years younger I would be with them.
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
Surely if a party's ideas are good they should be good to us at any age?
As a baby boomer, house owner with a secure job, pension and no debt, I am in a position that Fox jr can only dream of.
F1: theres only been a small decline in the odds on all Mercedes' powered cars finishing in the top 10. The only one starting outside is Stroll, who qualified 18th but will likely start 14th (Perez may get a penalty but is still likely to score).
The odds have fallen from 17 to 15. To be honest, I still think that's value. It's on the Ladbrokes Exchange, under specials.
Likely going to wait awhile before finishing the pre-race ramble.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
Heck of a gamble - Labour seem to have recovered their heartlands and are untouchable in most, and if the Tories take more of the ruralthe LDs would not have much area to try to take. But it is not as though they are in superb shape I guess.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
In my view, the missed opportunity was not painting ourselves as the unashamed champion of the younger generation, which is the position the party was starting to carve out for itself in the 2000s until Clegg went haywire on tuition fees. Brexit slots happily into an intergenerational-fairness agenda alongside fairer taxes, fairer politics, and action on the housing market, etc.
Fighting the whole election on reversing Brexit and saying nothing meaningful on the rest of it was a colossal mistake, leaving us only the constituency of relatively well-off people who have done well out of so-called globalisation and internationalism (until we hit them with the mansion tax).
What that means, in effect, is that the only way that EU citizens' rights can be changed post-Brexit is for Parliament to repeal the entire framework of the new arrangement we end up having with the EU. Unless that happens, the ECJ will have significant influence over UK courts in this area, though no de jure power. That could well set a template for other areas as well. This will not please the Rees-Moggs.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
What would be a good price? I would be amused if Spain or the Argentines literally just offered a cash figure for either.
A serious point. From where is the EU going to rustle up a £10b annual sum to replace our contribution? Even if we pay a lump sum settlement, it won't last forever.
If we cover the funding gaps, that saves the EU from re-opening a settled budget negotiation, which is a painful exercise. At the next exercise it will be with whatever numbers they have.
Another point, which people are not aware of, is that the UK is unlikely to stop spending in Europe. Leaving the EU sees a collapse in our influence. The most effective way of getting some of that influence back is by buying it.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
What would be a good price? I would be amused if Spain or the Argentines literally just offered a cash figure for either.
We could do a Hong Kong and offer a 99 year leasehold on them, for a fee/annual rent.
A serious point. From where is the EU going to rustle up a £10b annual sum to replace our contribution? Even if we pay a lump sum settlement, it won't last forever.
It's not really very much money in the context of the size of the EU's economy.
It's significantly less than Germany's most recent budget surplus.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
What would be a good price? I would be amused if Spain or the Argentines literally just offered a cash figure for either.
We could swap it for Spain's North African enclaves, and just ferry the Gibs and the monkeys across the straights, so they can continue to have their all-day breakfasts in thirty-degree sunshine, and the Navy still has somewhere to refuel its ships?
I reckon that will force more Leavers to wanting to oust Mrs May.
If the Leadbangers want her out, I really should be wanting her to stay.
That would be a pretty big concession, and there are enough who oppose any form of concession (they don't seem to understand what a negotiation is any more than some who argue the EU won't concede or offer anything, however slight) that yep, the trouble is back on. Maybe Boris will say he cannot remain as foreign secretary and support that, challenge on. (Recognising the tory process does not require a declared challenger, )
The problem for Boris is that he is on the record countless times saying that EU citizens should have exactly the same rights post-Brexit as they would pre-Brexit.
He'd have to be pretty shameless to change tune then
It's a stupid thing for him to say. Let the other side speak for its interests. He should speak for Britain's.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
I've heard a lot of things said by British nationalists about the French - usually similar to "they always put their own interests first" (once even as the sneerer was about to board a flight to New York) and "they smell" - but this is the first time I've heard it said that they're more mercenary and willing to sell the family silver than the Brits.
We also handed 6 million in Hong Kong and both the Island and the peninsula which were freehold, only the New Terfitories were leased.
There is an Aghan proverb about us: "It is better to be an enemy of the British than their friend as they buy their enemies and sell their friends"
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
True, but CycleFree and I both said the English :-)
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
Surely if a party's ideas are good they should be good to us at any age?
As a baby boomer, house owner with a secure job, pension and no debt, I am in a position that Fox jr can only dream of.
Surely that should be as an upper middle class baby boomer.
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
Heck of a gamble - Labour seem to have recovered their heartlands and are untouchable in most, and if the Tories take more of the ruralthe LDs would not have much area to try to take. But it is not as though they are in superb shape I guess.
It definitely is a gamble, which is why the LDs are not taking it. But going for an internationalist ticket has a big upside, compared with seeing their remaining bastions disappear one by one.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
In my view, the missed opportunity was not painting ourselves as the unashamed champion of the younger generation, which is the position the party was starting to carve out for itself in the 2000s until Clegg went haywire on tuition fees. Brexit slots happily into an intergenerational-fairness agenda alongside fairer taxes, fairer politics, and action on the housing market, etc.
Fighting the whole election on reversing Brexit and saying nothing meaningful on the rest of it was a colossal mistake, leaving us only the constituency of relatively well-off people who have done well out of so-called globalisation and internationalism (until we hit them with the mansion tax).
Which is why Vince was such a bad choice. He was the architect of Tuition fees and apart from Brexit rejection has no other real policy.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
...
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
Surely if a party's ideas are good they should be good to us at any age?
As a baby boomer, house owner with a secure job, pension and no debt, I am in a position that Fox jr can only dream of.
Surely that should be as an upper middle class baby boomer.
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
Very true.
I have mates who live in better houses than their folks, largely because their education and employment opportunities are just so much better.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
In my view, the missed opportunity was not painting ourselves as the unashamed champion of the younger generation, which is the position the party was starting to carve out for itself in the 2000s until Clegg went haywire on tuition fees. Brexit slots happily into an intergenerational-fairness agenda alongside fairer taxes, fairer politics, and action on the housing market, etc.
Fighting the whole election on reversing Brexit and saying nothing meaningful on the rest of it was a colossal mistake, leaving us only the constituency of relatively well-off people who have done well out of so-called globalisation and internationalism (until we hit them with the mansion tax).
Which is why Vince was such a bad choice. He was the architect of Tuition fees and apart from Brexit rejection has no other real policy.
My view also, although in his defence he does see the much of the economic stuff. The best we can hope for is that he accepts he is a caretaker for Swinson or one of the other younger ones to rapidly learn up and takeover.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
In my view, the missed opportunity was not painting ourselves as the unashamed champion of the younger generation, which is the position the party was starting to carve out for itself in the 2000s until Clegg went haywire on tuition fees. Brexit slots happily into an intergenerational-fairness agenda alongside fairer taxes, fairer politics, and action on the housing market, etc.
Fighting the whole election on reversing Brexit and saying nothing meaningful on the rest of it was a colossal mistake, leaving us only the constituency of relatively well-off people who have done well out of so-called globalisation and internationalism (until we hit them with the mansion tax).
Which is why Vince was such a bad choice. He was the architect of Tuition fees and apart from Brexit rejection has no other real policy.
He's very keen on lifelong learning accounts, which I think is a very good idea with the way modern life and work are going - but I'm probably prejudiced on this, because I've waxed lyrical on the subject to most of my friends in the past and seeing someone pick up on it and run with it makes me enthusiastic.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
You can't. The Channel Islands aren't part of the UK - if anything, we own you......just ask the Duke of Normandy.....
If that's true, that means the EU have moved to the UK position, and accepted May's compromise as a way of taking this issue off the table, and moving onto the next.
That is telling, because it tells us the EU is also worried about no deal as well.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
What would be a good price? I would be amused if Spain or the Argentines literally just offered a cash figure for either.
We could do a Hong Kong and offer a 99 year leasehold on them, for a fee/annual rent.
Sounds like a pretty poor deal, since we'd then get them back in 100 years.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
Very centre.
The country.
Me here.
Surely any age?
As of.
Surely that should be as an upper middle class baby boomer.
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
I was born working class and, by your definition, am now upper middle class. That suits me. I guess the point is that the route I took was possible back in the day and many took it. It's not anymore. When I bought my first flat in London in the early 1990s it cost £60,000 - two bedrooms and a little garden, in N19. Between us, my wife and I were earning around £35,000 pa as a teacher and as a junior B2B journalist respectively. Today, the same flat would cost around £500,000 and our salaries would be around £50,000. That is the problem.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
Very centre.
The country.
Me here.
Surely any age?
As of.
Surely that should be as an upper middle class baby boomer.
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
I was born working class and, by your definition, am now upper middle class. That suits me. I guess the point is that the route I took was possible back in the day and many took it. It's not anymore. When I bought my first flat in London in the early 1990s it cost £60,000 - two bedrooms and a little garden, in N19. Between us, my wife and I were earning around £35,000 pa as a teacher and as a junior B2B journalist respectively. Today, the same flat would cost around £500,000 and our salaries would be around £50,000. That is the problem.
Indeed. My first flat was £50,000 with one bedroom on the Archway Road, not far from you. Buying in the early 1990s was actually better than the late 80s, like I did.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
You can't. The Channel Islands aren't part of the UK - if anything, we own you......just ask the Duke of Normandy.....
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
The Lib Dems, in my opinion, need to reinvent themselves as the unashamedly internationalist party. There's 30% of the electorate up for grabs. Brexit is a symptom of the issue they would fight on, not the entire issue of itself.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
In my view, the missed opportunity was not painting ourselves as the unashamed champion of the younger generation, which is the position the party was starting to carve out for itself in the 2000s until Clegg went haywire on tuition fees. Brexit slots happily into an intergenerational-fairness agenda alongside fairer taxes, fairer politics, and action on the housing market, etc.
Fighting the whole election on reversing Brexit and saying nothing meaningful on the rest of it was a colossal mistake, leaving us only the constituency of relatively well-off people who have done well out of so-called globalisation and internationalism (until we hit them with the mansion tax).
Which is why Vince was such a bad choice. He was the architect of Tuition fees and apart from Brexit rejection has no other real policy.
He's very keen on lifelong learning accounts, which I think is a very good idea with the way modern life and work are going - but I'm probably prejudiced on this, because I've waxed lyrical on the subject to most of my friends in the past and seeing someone pick up on it and run with it makes me enthusiastic.
The LibDems have tons of good policies on the detail, but never manage to find a big picture.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
What would be a good price? I would be amused if Spain or the Argentines literally just offered a cash figure for either.
We could do a Hong Kong and offer a 99 year leasehold on them, for a fee/annual rent.
Sounds like a pretty poor deal, since we'd then get them back in 100 years.
But after 99 years of Iberian rule, the people of Gibraltar might prefer Spanish rule.
They might even hold a referendum on joining Spain.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
Very centre.
The country.
Me here.
Surely any age?
As of.
Surely that should be as an upper middle class baby boomer.
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
I was born working class and, by your definition, am now upper middle class. That suits me. I guess the point is that the route I took was possible back in the day and many took it. It's not anymore. When I bought my first flat in London in the early 1990s it cost £60,000 - two bedrooms and a little garden, in N19. Between us, my wife and I were earning around £35,000 pa as a teacher and as a junior B2B journalist respectively. Today, the same flat would cost around £500,000 and our salaries would be around £50,000. That is the problem.
Indeed. My first flat was £50,000 with one bedroom on the Archway Road, not far from you. Buying in the early 1990s was actually better than the late 80s, like I did.
CycleFree wrote: "The English may have paid others to do their fighting for them, usually against the French, but they have yet to sell bits of their country off."
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
We can sell off Gibraltar to Spain, The Malvinas to the Argentinians, and the Channel Islands to the French for starters.
What would be a good price? I would be amused if Spain or the Argentines literally just offered a cash figure for either.
We could do a Hong Kong and offer a 99 year leasehold on them, for a fee/annual rent.
Sounds like a pretty poor deal, since we'd then get them back in 100 years.
But after 99 years of Iberian rule, the people of Gibraltar might prefer Spanish rule.
They might even hold a referendum on joining Spain.
Well we know how firm they are on the constitution and the law, so they would have to write in that possibility into the terms of the lease.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
Very.
Me as well. Events have painted the LDs into the corner of being the status quo party, which runs contrary to their history (well the Liberal side of it at least) and is the worst possible place to be right now. Like Fox my younger self wouldn't be here.
Surely if a party's ideas are good they should be good to us at any age?
As a baby boomer, house owner with a secure job, pension and no debt, I am in a position that Fox jr can only dream of.
Surely that should be as an upper middle class baby boomer.
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
Babyboomers also had to experience rationing, a far higher proportion of income being spent upon food and basic living costs, longer working hours, limited consumer choices, fewer leisure options, and much more hierarchy in their professional and social lives.
The question I have to those who seem to think Corbyn is the Messiah how far is he and labour ahead in the polling. The polling evidence still shows Theresa May ahead as best PM, and the polls movement is no more than MOE.
Labour and Corbyn should be out of sight and they are not. The audience in question time were far from Corbyn friendly and the various vox pops have shown considerable support for May
I have no idea how this pans out and to be honest neither has anyone else. Politics has never been so unpredictable
You contradict yourself. Counting on the polling, but saying things have never been so unpredictable.
The real nightmare for the Tories is a
Yes I would agree regarding Emily Thornberry , I was very impressed with her during the General Election campaign.
I am not so sure.
One message of the last few years is that people are willing to vote for radicals, particularly when they feel under threat.
I think you are correct Fox , just difficult for an old centrist like myself to grasp the changing reality.
Very much in the same place as you, Dr Fox. I've not been able to bring myself to cancel mine either, but frustrated at the party's seeming inability to get tractive effort through the Serengeti like spaces of the current centre.
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
Me as well.
Surely if a party's ideas are good they should be good to us at any age?
As a baby boomer, house owner with a secure job, pension and no debt, I am in a position that Fox jr can only dream of.
Surely that should be as an upper middle class baby boomer.
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
My dad was a salesman, my mum a secretary turned housewife. I went to state comprehensives.
I was handed nothing on a plate. My sole inheritance was £1000 from my grandfather.
Comments
I will keep my LD membership, and would be closest to Lamb in terms of politics of current LD MPs. I was very disappointed by the coronation of Vince as leader. He was a bad choice.
I reckon that will force more Leavers to wanting to oust Mrs May.
If the Leadbangers want her out, I really should be wanting her to stay.
The general assumption is that a change of leader for the Conservatives won't help them much. In the long term perhaps not but in the short term it probably would. The public are minded to give everyone a fair chance. If they choose someone who can ride that - big if - we could see expectations confounded.
Yes the letters falling off is not Theresa May's fault, but scrimping on the conference presentation was a choice made by the Conservative party.
https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/916580001868369920
The current strategy of having Remainers implementing Leave is not working, they annoy both the continuity Remainers and also the hardcore Leavers. There is no middle ground in this Tory party, they need a leader who can get off the fence.
So what makes you think that a Corbyn-led Labour government would lead to this soft cuddly BINO outcome?
Couldn’t happen to a nicer preening egotist.
- If we don't want May, we must want Corbyn, therefore he is better than May, therefore we must make ourselves see things as good... and with sufficient confirmation bias, we can convince ourselves of anything.
It's a natural fallout of a system designed to minimize competition (to the benefit of the incumbent Big Two). It's closely related to the issues of nationalised/monopolistic industries which the Tories recognised in the Eighties - but the producer capture becomes untreatable when the producers are producing the laws around the producer capture. Monopolists remain monopolists and damage their own quality for themselves and those they "serve", and there's no way out.
http://www.richardwiseman.com/Luck.shtml
It is how one reacts to events that makes a person lucky, or unlucky, not whether the events happen in the first place. Luck is an attitude of mind.
This is what Napoleon meant when he wanted lucky generals. He wanted people with the flexibility to manoeuvre as events unfolded, and to create opportunities.
May is unlucky because she lacks that flexibility. It is why she is a poor negotiator too.
https://twitter.com/thespainreport/status/916563563132735489
https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/916585672064012288
https://twitter.com/KeithKeith80/status/916587610923044864
https://twitter.com/CER_Grant/status/916588452556263424
If BINO is the option chosen by Labour, they will end up disappointing many of those who think they will get rid of the neo-liberal consensus. In many ways, the EU is an expression of it. It has at times been rather more concerned with protecting the rights of bondolders than of ordinary working people losing their jobs.
Does Labour really understand what the 4 freedoms at the heart of the Single Market really mean?
I work with film crews who include electricians riggers carpenters set builders loaders camera assistants grips runners coffee makers etc etc. All skilled to a greater or lesser extent and none that I can think of who would like to be described as 'Working Class'.
The man's an anachronism and for someone like me who has always voted Labour (except for once when I voted Paddy after shooting his PPB) and who supports his pacifism it's given me a dilemma. I think I'll abstain.
If they find themselves in government, the honeymoon period will give them lots of opportunity to change tack, once they "see the books" and hear the advice from officials.
If they are really lucky and need LibDem or SNP support, the "price" is clearly a second referendum.
Of course Labour are saying lots of things to lots of people in order to drag up enough support.
Some of them are outright lies, like Rayner the other day on Question Time about the numbers of poorer students at university.
On Corbyn. Official Labour Party policies are mostly of the social democratic stamp. I could support, or at least live with, the bulk of them. My worry is Jeremy Corbyn's famous lack of discipline. He seems to think his manifesto was just things to say to win the vote, rather than commitments. I also don't trust John McConnell an inch.
On the Conservative Party and Brexit, our header writer summed it up perfectly on a previous post - even if he was referring to the EU rather than the UK government and voters: a complete and perhaps willful inability to understand and accommodate the reality of Brexit. We have three relatively clear choices for Brexit, all of which are humiliating for us, in different ways:
- "WTO", which is the absence of a solution, rather than a solution. It will probably damage us quite significantly. It is Brexit failure, not Brexit success, when most Leavers and Remainers would want success. More importantly, I don't think this a sustainable option. We might crash out but we would quickly look to get back into the EU fold.
- "EEA" where we sign up to everything the EU asks of us, but retain much of the status quo. As the referendum was carried on the premise on us taking back control, a version of what we had before, that sees us with less influence over our affairs than before, doesn't compute.
- Return to full membership of the EU. The one hard fact of the referendum is that we rejected this option.
It is not surprising that Mrs May denies the reality of Brexit and rejects all these humiliating choices, although I think she does now understand the real position. What the Conservative Party needs is a leader that can convincingly declare sovereignty and sign up to the EU agenda in the form of the EEA or equivalent, to make the UK into a client of the EU, while assuring people that it is all in the name of taking control. Boris Johnson in his prime might have got away with it, but I think he's past it now. The alternative is to allow failure to happen first and then people will demand, sort this out.
https://twitter.com/ThatTimWalker/status/916595717430325248
The Tories are bereft of ideas they can sell to the country.
However, it will I fear do little or nothing to address the structural issues we as a country face. Nor for a large number of those who voted Leave.
And not addressing our entirely freedom of movement based growth would only be the first of those. It because that is also a cultural shibboleth (immigration) as well as an economic quandary, it will be tremendously controversial.
I voted Leave to regain sovereignty over our laws, to connect our own political system with the reality outside metropolitan areas, and to equip us as a nation for the next century. SM/CU doesn't quite cut it - perhaps it could be accompanied by tremendous renewal in the form of constitutional restructuring, reform of welfare, huge small builder deregulation, etc, but I fear vested interests (including MPs) will stymy that.
Essentially, you can look on FPTP as The One Ring - it gives promise of complete power to those in possession, but is almost unmasterable, but it is beyond the will of any mortal to voluntarily throw it away. You pretty much have to stumble into change by chance.
They would lose some of their remaining rural heartlands, but I think they need to go for it.
The English don't have a country they can sell off, but the British...well, what do we call what happened to Diego Garcia? And which out of Britain and France is it that allows foreign military bases on its own metropolitan territory? It's the trophy cabinet north of the Channel that has by far the most brown tongue medals. Which is why Britain wasn't allowed in the EEC after Suez.
I've heard a lot of things said by British nationalists about the French - usually similar to "they always put their own interests first" (once even as the sneerer was about to board a flight to New York) and "they smell" - but this is the first time I've heard it said that they're more mercenary and willing to sell the family silver than the Brits.
The odds have fallen from 17 to 15. To be honest, I still think that's value. It's on the Ladbrokes Exchange, under specials.
Likely going to wait awhile before finishing the pre-race ramble.
Fighting the whole election on reversing Brexit and saying nothing meaningful on the rest of it was a colossal mistake, leaving us only the constituency of relatively well-off people who have done well out of so-called globalisation and internationalism (until we hit them with the mansion tax).
Another point, which people are not aware of, is that the UK is unlikely to stop spending in Europe. Leaving the EU sees a collapse in our influence. The most effective way of getting some of that influence back is by buying it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/08/25/germany-achieves-near-record-budget-surplus-183bn/
There is an Aghan proverb about us: "It is better to be an enemy of the British than their friend as they buy their enemies and sell their friends"
While young people do have legitimate grievances, there is a tendency to compare their life chances with those of upper middle class components of older age cohorts, rather than lower middle class or working class components, most of whom never went to university, grew up in housing that was dismal by modern standards, and may have experienced unemployment.
Anyone who's upper middle class is living in clover.
I have mates who live in better houses than their folks, largely because their education and employment opportunities are just so much better.
That is telling, because it tells us the EU is also worried about no deal as well.
We should have given them away after WWII, never trusted them Channel Islanders, a bunch of Nazi collaborators.
They might even hold a referendum on joining Spain.
I was handed nothing on a plate. My sole inheritance was £1000 from my grandfather.