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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Is nationalisation really making a comeback? Don Brind doubts

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    The way Theresa May is answering her questions, it appears the government does have legal advice that it is possible for the Government to revoke Article 50
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    edited October 2017
    calum said:
    If a drop of three points is an unmitigated disaster, what would James call the SNP's performance in the last election?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,110

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    Let's see how they look in four years time, after the last Conferences before the election the following spring....
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Justine Greening MP
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    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    Yup, she should have ripped it up and said I'm going nowhere
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,988

    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    Wasn't that a reaction to the intruder/heckler? If so, and as a reaction to an unscripted event, it was quite good.
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    philiph said:

    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Theresa May says Brexit ball in EU court. Ignoring fact they whacked it back into UK court at lunchtime. Odd.

    It is called, in tennis terms, a rally.
    Balls are designed for knocking from one side to the other.
    Just worry when the Germans have rallies....
    I was just thinking it's a bit of a phoney war at present, now I'm worried
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    How does the maths work on that.

    Presumably it means Labour are doing very badly in either Tory or Labour safe seats if they are doing relatively well in their marginals?
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    Charles said:

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    How does the maths work on that.

    Presumably it means Labour are doing very badly in either Tory or Labour safe seats if they are doing relatively well in their marginals?
    I'm assuming the Tories are stacking up votes where they don't need to, a bit like Labour in 2015.
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    edited October 2017
    Dura - I think perhaps BAE could get the RN to record an Astute attack run against a Hobart destroyer or its Spanish equivalent. It would show the disadvantage of conducting ASW with a noisy design from Navantia, and make clear the benefits of the Type 26 to the Australians and the Canadians.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,553

    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    Wasn't that a reaction to the intruder/heckler? If so, and as a reaction to an unscripted event, it was quite good.
    I thought it sounded as though she wanted to replace him as leader of the opposition - which probably wasn't the intended effect.
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    Matt d'Ancona is fabulously correct.

    So the prime minister would be ill advised to draw much comfort from the decision of most senior Tories to rally round her this weekend and – at least publicly – to distance themselves from Grant Shapps, outed last week as a ringleader of the plot to depose her. Their support is entirely provisional, and in many cases spectacularly hypocritical.

    Indeed, the rubbishing of Shapps in the past few days has been pathetic. Though his chairmanship of the party between 2012 and 2015 was not without controversy, he is an able politician who knows the Tory movement inside out. The leaden-footed campaign to present him as a marginal figure is ridiculous. Like Ed Vaizey – the MP for Wantage, who has also raised doubts about May’s leadership – Shapps is treating the voters like adults by saying explicitly what everyone knows his colleagues are muttering in private.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/08/theresa-may-tory-party-ruth-davidson
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    Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    Wasn't that a reaction to the intruder/heckler? If so, and as a reaction to an unscripted event, it was quite good.
    It was illogical as presumably she wants him to keep his current job!
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    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    Wasn't that a reaction to the intruder/heckler? If so, and as a reaction to an unscripted event, it was quite good.
    Yeah, but 'I wish the leader of the opposition was fired!' implies she'd rather be facing somebody else or something. I think the kids call it a 'self-own'.
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Charles said:

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    How does the maths work on that.

    Presumably it means Labour are doing very badly in either Tory or Labour safe seats if they are doing relatively well in their marginals?
    It's of no consequence at the moment and probably will be forever more if recent history is any guide.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    Ahh what was that loud noise.

    Tory delight at being level with Comrade Corbyn

    Short lived
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    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    It wasn't the wittiest riposte in the history of politics, but it was pretty good response in the circumstances. I bet you couldn't manage anything one hundredth as good if you were suddenly presented, during a set-piece speech, by someone completely unexpected, who might have had violent intentions, and where you didn't know what the hell was going in. She probably couldn't even see what was happening very well, given that the lights would have been shining at her.

    No wonder it got a roar of approval - she deserved it on that.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    How does the maths work on that.

    Presumably it means Labour are doing very badly in either Tory or Labour safe seats if they are doing relatively well in their marginals?
    I'm assuming the Tories are stacking up votes where they don't need to, a bit like Labour in 2015.
    Nah - suspect most people like that voted Tory anyway (also high turnout seats) More likely that Labour DNV reverting to type in their safe seats. Same outcome though.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    RobD said:

    calum said:
    If a drop of three points is an unmitigated disaster, what would James call the SNP's performance in the last election?
    SCON -6% (-8 seats) / SNP +3% (+ 8 seats) !!
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,850
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    Wasn't that a reaction to the intruder/heckler? If so, and as a reaction to an unscripted event, it was quite good.
    I thought it sounded as though she wanted to replace him as leader of the opposition - which probably wasn't the intended effect.
    Labour does not want the Tories to fire May

    She is a complete dud.
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Matt d'Ancona is fabulously correct.

    So the prime minister would be ill advised to draw much comfort from the decision of most senior Tories to rally round her this weekend and – at least publicly – to distance themselves from Grant Shapps, outed last week as a ringleader of the plot to depose her. Their support is entirely provisional, and in many cases spectacularly hypocritical.

    Indeed, the rubbishing of Shapps in the past few days has been pathetic. Though his chairmanship of the party between 2012 and 2015 was not without controversy, he is an able politician who knows the Tory movement inside out. The leaden-footed campaign to present him as a marginal figure is ridiculous. Like Ed Vaizey – the MP for Wantage, who has also raised doubts about May’s leadership – Shapps is treating the voters like adults by saying explicitly what everyone knows his colleagues are muttering in private.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/08/theresa-may-tory-party-ruth-davidson

    Strange adverb that; must say something about the poster
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    KABOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM





    [well someone had to say it]
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    Are we believing ICM opinion polls now? I'm finding it hard to keep up.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Boom
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    edited October 2017
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    How does the maths work on that.

    Presumably it means Labour are doing very badly in either Tory or Labour safe seats if they are doing relatively well in their marginals?
    I'm assuming the Tories are stacking up votes where they don't need to, a bit like Labour in 2015.
    Nah - suspect most people like that voted Tory anyway (also high turnout seats) More likely that Labour DNV reverting to type in their safe seats. Same outcome though.
    The last GE was a free hit. Six or nothing but you've got to be a bit stupid to get out. Whatever, it rarely decides the game outcome.
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    GIN1138 said:

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    KABOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM





    [well someone had to say it]
    In Martin’s defence those Kabooms were warranted.

    He had the same rumours as me, and they turned out to be true.
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    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    It wasn't the wittiest riposte in the history of politics, but it was pretty good response in the circumstances. I bet you couldn't manage anything one hundredth as good if you were suddenly presented, during a set-piece speech, by someone completely unexpected, who might have had violent intentions, and where you didn't know what the hell was going in. She probably couldn't even see what was happening very well, given that the lights would have been shining at her.

    No wonder it got a roar of approval - she deserved it on that.
    It was a playground 'no, you!' response that made no sense. 'I want to give your mum a P45!'

    But it is interesting that Corbyn was so present at the Tory conference that he was the first thing she blurted out with the second she went off script. A spectre is haunting the Tory Party...
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    As an aside, I've been critical of Don's headers in the past because they were too partisan. But this was interesting. More please
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    Buy shares in Betrayal.
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    calum said:

    RobD said:

    calum said:
    If a drop of three points is an unmitigated disaster, what would James call the SNP's performance in the last election?
    SCON -6% (-8 seats) / SNP +3% (+ 8 seats) !!
    And yet another Yoon trope ('the EssEnnPee will be DESPERATE to avoid a GE!') shuffles off this mortal coil.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327

    Are we believing ICM opinion polls now? I'm finding it hard to keep up.

    Martin "Kaboom" Boon.
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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    GIN1138 said:

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    KABOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM





    [well someone had to say it]
    The election is over 4 years away
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    Buy shares in Betrayal.

    It's an extremely good example of the kind of concession to the EU - in practice trivial, but symbolic - which she could have made without political risk in return for concessions on their side, if only the electorate had given her the mandate she asked for. Now, who knows? The dangers of political chaos loom large.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,327
    Charles said:

    As an aside, I've been critical of Don's headers in the past because they were too partisan. But this was interesting. More please

    Yes, I thought so too.
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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    currystar said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    KABOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMM





    [well someone had to say it]
    The election is over 4 years away
    "probably"
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    Are we believing ICM opinion polls now? I'm finding it hard to keep up.

    Most of the opinion polls since June have pretty much the same story - Labour and Tory more or less level, Tories on course for most seats.

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    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Buy shares in Betrayal.

    It's an extremely good example of the kind of concession to the EU - in practice trivial, but symbolic - which she could have made without political risk in return for concessions on their side, if only the electorate had given her the mandate she asked for. Now, who knows? The dangers of political chaos loom large.
    I think the perception is more important than the reality - not unusual where sentiment is involved
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    Buy shares in Betrayal.

    It's an extremely good example of the kind of concession to the EU - in practice trivial, but symbolic - which she could have made without political risk in return for concessions on their side, if only the electorate had given her the mandate she asked for. Now, who knows? The dangers of political chaos loom large.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/917426589553618946

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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,980
    Mr. Observer, should we be paying attention to polls (except the exit poll)?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    Buy shares in Betrayal.

    It's an extremely good example of the kind of concession to the EU - in practice trivial, but symbolic - which she could have made without political risk in return for concessions on their side, if only the electorate had given her the mandate she asked for. Now, who knows? The dangers of political chaos loom large.
    Yeah, not sure why there's a huge fuss over an additional couple of years during the transition period. Worried about backsliding, perhaps?
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Scott_P said:
    Makes her look like Virginia Wade, a winner, shome mishtake shurely
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    The government's new paper on customs arrangements (including the 'no-deal' contingency):

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/650459/customs_bill_white_paper_web.pdf
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    Revolutions without revolutionaries are doomed to failure.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814
    Scott_P said:
    Will the Brexiteers turn now? (She already has Con Remainers gunning for her)
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    Scott_P said:
    Some of them really are bonkers. What the hell does it matter whether ECJ rules apply for another couple of years, when there's about a zillion really major issues to be addressed?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283
    RobD said:

    Buy shares in Betrayal.

    It's an extremely good example of the kind of concession to the EU - in practice trivial, but symbolic - which she could have made without political risk in return for concessions on their side, if only the electorate had given her the mandate she asked for. Now, who knows? The dangers of political chaos loom large.
    Yeah, not sure why there's a huge fuss over an additional couple of years during the transition period. Worried about backsliding, perhaps?
    They want it all sorted before events occur and we end up with a Labour government.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814

    Scott_P said:
    Some of them really are bonkers. What the hell does it matter whether ECJ rules apply for another couple of years, when there's about a zillion really major issues to be addressed?
    Scott_P said:
    Will this turn into Pull The Plug Monday? :D
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    edited October 2017
    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    The country has manoeuvred itself, with the help of the Brexiteers, into a strategic cul-de-sac with only one way out to repair the damage: embrace the EU fully and join the Euro. Otherwise we are simply opting to take early retirement as a nation.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    This was always Brexit's destination. We "Remoaners" have said so repeatedly and been lambasted for doing so.
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    TOPPING said:

    They want it all sorted before events occur and we end up with a Labour government.

    If so, they've got it completely wrong - faffing about over the ECJ will only delay getting it sorted.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @matt_dathan: Understatement of the day - Bill Cash says "further clarification may be needed" on the role of the ECJ after March 29, 2019.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Scott_P said:
    Some of them really are bonkers. What the hell does it matter whether ECJ rules apply for another couple of years, when there's about a zillion really major issues to be addressed?
    Some Leavers really do need muzzling at full moons.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited October 2017

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    The country has manoeuvred itself, with the help of the Brexiteers, into a strategic cul-de-sac with only one way out to repair the damage: embrace the EU fully and join the Euro. Otherwise we are simply opting to take early retirement as a nation.
    Buy a tank and go through the closed end.
    There is always another way.

    If full integration with the rest of the euro zone had been on the ballot paper I would probably have voted for it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Is this the starting pistol for the Mogg-Johnson-Patel 'dream team' :) ?
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    Pulpstar said:

    Is this the starting pistol for the Mogg-Johnson-Patel 'dream team' :) ?

    Stop scaring me.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    The country has manoeuvred itself, with the help of the Brexiteers, into a strategic cul-de-sac with only one way out to repair the damage: embrace the EU fully and join the Euro. Otherwise we are simply opting to take early retirement as a nation.
    Buy a tank and go through the closed end.
    There is always another way.

    If full integration with the rest of the euro zone had been on the ballot paper I would probably have voted for it.
    - Hard as nails Brexit would be a catastrophic failure
    - Soft and fluffy Brexit would turn us into the Puerto Rico of Europe

    There is no alternative now to accepting that our destiny is as at the heart of the political project. The sooner we accept it and plan for it, the better.
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    Remainers should NOT block Brexit, just let it happen, the way it is panning out, we'll be rejoining within a few years.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2017
    philiph said:

    If full integration with the rest of the euro zone had been on the ballot paper I would probably have voted for it.

    I would not have voted for that back then, but subsequent events have convinced me that UK politicians are not fit for purpose and need to be scrapped, so I would vote for it now.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917

    Pulpstar said:

    Is this the starting pistol for the Mogg-Johnson-Patel 'dream team' :) ?

    Stop scaring me.
    Don't worry, I'm sure Gove will get a great office of state too xD
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Remainers should NOT block Brexit, just let it happen, the way it is panning out, we'll be rejoining within a few years.

    Brexit is the process by which British Euroscepticism destroys itself and it should be pursued with vim and vigour.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    We need Lenin and the Bolsheviks, but we've got Kerensky, Miliukov, Prince Lvov and the rest of the lettuces from the Provisional Government.
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    RoyalBlue said:

    We need Lenin and the Bolsheviks, but we've got Kerensky, Miliukov, Prince Lvov and the rest of the lettuces from the Provisional Government.

    A Blue who wants Lenin and the Bolsheviks?

    Well, your wish might be granted, especially if the Conservative Party doesn't unite behind Theresa May.
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    RoyalBlue said:

    We need Lenin and the Bolsheviks, but we've got Kerensky, Miliukov, Prince Lvov and the rest of the lettuces from the Provisional Government.

    Indeed tovarishch, especially: https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/ichtci/
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Owen Patterson got outmanouvred by west country badgers, think T-Rex & co might be a bit tougher than our musteloid friends to deal with...
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150
    RoyalBlue said:

    We need Lenin and the Bolsheviks, but we've got Kerensky, Miliukov, Prince Lvov and the rest of the lettuces from the Provisional Government.

    Will Dave Spart and Wolfie Smith do?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,283

    TOPPING said:

    They want it all sorted before events occur and we end up with a Labour government.

    If so, they've got it completely wrong - faffing about over the ECJ will only delay getting it sorted.
    If they for example bring down Theresa over it they risk bringing about precisely the election they fear.

    That is how bonkers they are.
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    RoyalBlue said:

    We need Lenin and the Bolsheviks, but we've got Kerensky, Miliukov, Prince Lvov and the rest of the lettuces from the Provisional Government.

    For betting purposes, who is Trotsky?
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    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    The country has manoeuvred itself, with the help of the Brexiteers, into a strategic cul-de-sac with only one way out to repair the damage: embrace the EU fully and join the Euro. Otherwise we are simply opting to take early retirement as a nation.
    Buy a tank and go through the closed end.
    There is always another way.

    If full integration with the rest of the euro zone had been on the ballot paper I would probably have voted for it.
    - Hard as nails Brexit would be a catastrophic failure
    - Soft and fluffy Brexit would turn us into the Puerto Rico of Europe

    There is no alternative now to accepting that our destiny is as at the heart of the political project. The sooner we accept it and plan for it, the better.
    We already tried that under Blair. I admired him for his efforts but it didn't work out. Sometimes the right approach is the messy muddle through, as much as ideologues on both sides may hate it. For all the noise and bluster that seems to be where we're going, although the sausage making process is never pretty.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    The country has manoeuvred itself, with the help of the Brexiteers, into a strategic cul-de-sac with only one way out to repair the damage: embrace the EU fully and join the Euro. Otherwise we are simply opting to take early retirement as a nation.
    Buy a tank and go through the closed end.
    There is always another way.

    If full integration with the rest of the euro zone had been on the ballot paper I would probably have voted for it.
    - Hard as nails Brexit would be a catastrophic failure
    - Soft and fluffy Brexit would turn us into the Puerto Rico of Europe

    There is no alternative now to accepting that our destiny is as at the heart of the political project. The sooner we accept it and plan for it, the better.
    Assumption
    Assumption
    Limited thinking
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    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    They want it all sorted before events occur and we end up with a Labour government.

    If so, they've got it completely wrong - faffing about over the ECJ will only delay getting it sorted.
    If they for example bring down Theresa over it they risk bringing about precisely the election they fear.

    That is how bonkers they are.
    The most wondrous feature of their bonkersness is that, against the odds, they actually won the principal argument. Sabotaging your own success takes a very special breed of head-banger.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    Elliot said:

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    The country has manoeuvred itself, with the help of the Brexiteers, into a strategic cul-de-sac with only one way out to repair the damage: embrace the EU fully and join the Euro. Otherwise we are simply opting to take early retirement as a nation.
    Buy a tank and go through the closed end.
    There is always another way.

    If full integration with the rest of the euro zone had been on the ballot paper I would probably have voted for it.
    - Hard as nails Brexit would be a catastrophic failure
    - Soft and fluffy Brexit would turn us into the Puerto Rico of Europe

    There is no alternative now to accepting that our destiny is as at the heart of the political project. The sooner we accept it and plan for it, the better.
    We already tried that under Blair. I admired him for his efforts but it didn't work out. Sometimes the right approach is the messy muddle through, as much as ideologues on both sides may hate it. For all the noise and bluster that seems to be where we're going, although the sausage making process is never pretty.
    We didn’t try it. Blair spent his political capital on the Iraq war instead of joining the Euro.
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    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    They want it all sorted before events occur and we end up with a Labour government.

    If so, they've got it completely wrong - faffing about over the ECJ will only delay getting it sorted.
    If they for example bring down Theresa over it they risk bringing about precisely the election they fear.

    That is how bonkers they are.
    Trying to mutiny in the middle of navigating a storm is never a good idea.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The most wondrous feature of their bonkersness is that, against the odds, they actually won the principal argument. Sabotaging your own success takes a very special breed of head-banger.

    They won the vote.

    They are terrified that they did not in fact win the argument, and can't afford to have it again.
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    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    philiph said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is turning into an utter disaster. We will end up accepting the EU's ultimatum, and pay an absolute fortune in exchange for no influence. The transition will give business time to form an orderly queue to leave the UK, whilst our politicians will accept our colonial status on a permanent basis to avoid a cliff-edge in 2021.

    The country has manoeuvred itself, with the help of the Brexiteers, into a strategic cul-de-sac with only one way out to repair the damage: embrace the EU fully and join the Euro. Otherwise we are simply opting to take early retirement as a nation.
    Buy a tank and go through the closed end.
    There is always another way.

    If full integration with the rest of the euro zone had been on the ballot paper I would probably have voted for it.
    - Hard as nails Brexit would be a catastrophic failure
    - Soft and fluffy Brexit would turn us into the Puerto Rico of Europe

    There is no alternative now to accepting that our destiny is as at the heart of the political project. The sooner we accept it and plan for it, the better.
    We already tried that under Blair. I admired him for his efforts but it didn't work out. Sometimes the right approach is the messy muddle through, as much as ideologues on both sides may hate it. For all the noise and bluster that seems to be where we're going, although the sausage making process is never pretty.
    We didn’t try it. Blair spent his political capital on the Iraq war instead of joining the Euro.
    If we'd have joined the Euro, we would have been in a bad state right now and the British public would never have accepted it anyway. The question was whether we could have major influence outside the Euro. The Blair and Cameron years showed the answer was no.
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    Scott_P said:
    Some of them really are bonkers. What the hell does it matter whether ECJ rules apply for another couple of years, when there's about a zillion really major issues to be addressed?

    They are, I'm afraid, plastic patriots with absolutely no interest in what is best for the UK and its people. They want to argue about abstracts and destiny and Agincourt. It's utterly, irredeemably pathetic. If I were a Tory I would want them out of my party forthwith. As it is, I just hold them in total contempt. They will never, ever be satisfied.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @janinegibson: This is the parenting equivalent of pretending you can’t hear “can I have a biscuit?" https://twitter.com/stuartmillar159/status/917441500958642184
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Royal Mail is the "quick win" for an incoming Labour government,could be done in the first week,the others will take time.A s Mrs Thatcher rightly said the privatisation of Royal Mail was "a step too far".
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Scott_P said:
    Some of them really are bonkers. What the hell does it matter whether ECJ rules apply for another couple of years, when there's about a zillion really major issues to be addressed?

    They are, I'm afraid, plastic patriots with absolutely no interest in what is best for the UK and its people. They want to argue about abstracts and destiny and Agincourt. It's utterly, irredeemably pathetic. If I were a Tory I would want them out of my party forthwith. As it is, I just hold them in total contempt. They will never, ever be satisfied.

    What an utterly horrible post. How is name calling helpful? You're better than this.


    I think you and Casino should take a break from PB today.
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    A University of Oxford college banned Christian Union representatives from attending its freshers’ fair over concerns at the “potential for harm to freshers”.

    Balliol Christian Union (CU) was told the college’s student body, the JCR, wanted the freshers’ fair to be a “secular space”, according to Oxford’s student newspaper Cherwell.

    Eventually the CU was told that a single multi-faith stall would be allowed to display leaflets, though no representatives would be allowed to staff it, according to leaked emails seen by the paper. Balliol CU boycotted this option.

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/09/anger-as-oxford-college-bans-christian-group-from-freshers-fair?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Scott_P said:
    Some of them really are bonkers. What the hell does it matter whether ECJ rules apply for another couple of years, when there's about a zillion really major issues to be addressed?
    Looking for sanity from an ideological Brexiteer is ambitious
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Scott_P said:

    @estwebber: Corbyn says half the Conservatives want Johnson sacked and half want Hammond sacked

    Labour MP: "We want them both sacked!"

    Reminds me, did anyone else think Theresa May's 'there's somebody I'd like to give a P45 to and that's Jeremy Corbyn!' comeback was the worst thing about the whole conference palaver? It didn't make any sense and got a roar from the audience.
    It wasn't the wittiest riposte in the history of politics, but it was pretty good response in the circumstances. I bet you couldn't manage anything one hundredth as good if you were suddenly presented, during a set-piece speech, by someone completely unexpected, who might have had violent intentions, and where you didn't know what the hell was going in. She probably couldn't even see what was happening very well, given that the lights would have been shining at her.

    No wonder it got a roar of approval - she deserved it on that.
    It was a playground 'no, you!' response that made no sense. 'I want to give your mum a P45!'

    But it is interesting that Corbyn was so present at the Tory conference that he was the first thing she blurted out with the second she went off script. A spectre is haunting the Tory Party...
    I think that her "No, Jeremy Corbyn" response was actually a return to script.

    She was talking of Jezza just before the P45, and I think "No, Jeremy Corbyn" was a scripted attempt at humour mocking "Oh, Jeremy Corbyn"

    It fell flat because of the incident, but also because it doesn't work as a joke.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    They want it all sorted before events occur and we end up with a Labour government.

    If so, they've got it completely wrong - faffing about over the ECJ will only delay getting it sorted.
    If they for example bring down Theresa over it they risk bringing about precisely the election they fear.

    That is how bonkers they are.
    The most wondrous feature of their bonkersness is that, against the odds, they actually won the principal argument. Sabotaging your own success takes a very special breed of head-banger.
    We won a single battle, then handed over command to a general from the other side who has no victories to her name.

    Not having a Brexiteer as PM May prove fatal (boom boom) to Brexit.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Royal Mail is the "quick win" for an incoming Labour government,could be done in the first week,the others will take time.A s Mrs Thatcher rightly said the privatisation of Royal Mail was "a step too far".

    Yes, but it was far more relevant then. It is now left delivering advertorial junk mail.
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    Well that's the Tories fucked, brace yourselves for a Corbyn led government,

    https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/917417214743105536

    The polls aren't always right - they overstated Labour in 2015, and understated Labour in 2017.
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    Scott_P said:
    Maximum freedom in Gove's Tweet - what on earth does that mean? This is never going to end, is it?

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    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    TSE on the ICM poll: "Given the contrast between the remarkable unity and optimism at the Labour conference, and the division and mayhem at the Conservative one, these figures are surprising. But they are probably a useful reminder that most people pay little or no attention to what goes on at party conferences, and that most of what preoccupies political obsessives has minimal impact on voting intention."


    Or... they are a useful reminder that most of the Westminster village comments echoed on thread headers et al on here and elsewhere have no clue as to the thoughts and views of typical voters. :)

    I was pointing out Theresa May would be a disaster when the village thought she was Thatcher incarnate.

    Just saying.
    42% of voters clearly think you are wrong.
    I forget losing Cameron's majority constitutes a success for Mrs May.
    I'm sorry you don't like the polling but we are where we are.
    Just to be clear, you consider the general election result a success for the Tory party?
    Nope - but more people appear to support the May led Tory government than have voted Tory in recent times. Sadly you typify the hyperbolic nature of political commentary or what passes for it these days. Thankfully, the voters have got a much clearer sense of perspective. Brexit has divided the country down the middle - the polling reflects this but the commentary generally does not.
    And Theresa May is so bad, that an IRA condoning Trot has see Labour receive support not seen since Blair at his pomp.
    Theresa May's 42% is the best Tory GE vote %-age since 1987.
This discussion has been closed.