Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
They'll be seen in a worse light than that. Nobody went round the country with a bus saying "Defending the Sudetenland costs £350m a week, let's give it to Hitler instead".
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
I thought using examples of war for the EU referendum was looked negative on here.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Nah, they'll blame the politicians who got us into this mess, and who said Brexit was easy, and such stories were Project Fear Reality.
Yes, there's definitely a whiff of panic in the air. The problem is that, although it was glossed over during the referendum campaign, the Leave movement is hopelessly fragmented. Everyone has his own pet theory about the road to Brexit utopia. Now, perhaps that's harmless enough when restricted to discussion groups in dusty church halls, but it hardly amounts to a political blueprint for an issue of national importance. Hence the bickering and paralysis we now see.
Which is why IMO it would be possible to say: we're leaving and we're also going to be members of the single market and customs union.
It would upset a lot of people but probably not a majority of people.
It is precisely the other side of the no one knows what Brexit they want coin that the govt (in less useless hands, admittedly) could take the initiative.
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
I thought using examples of war for the EU referendum was looked negative on here.
Nah, plus after us Remainers were called the equivalent of Holocaust deniers, I'm being quite restrained.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Just imagine another 20 years in the EU,we would have never left with the brainwashing.
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
I thought using examples of war for the EU referendum was looked negative on here.
Nah, plus after us Remainers were called the equivalent of Holocaust deniers, I'm being quite restrained.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, if they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Just imagine another 20 years in the EU,we would have never left with the brainwashing.
No - we got half the country brainwashed early and scarpered into the wilderness with no plan.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Just imagine another 20 years in the EU,we would have never left with the brainwashing.
No - we got half the country brainwashed early and scarpered into the wilderness with no plan.
Come on bev,we joined the common market with a vote not a political union
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
I thought using examples of war for the EU referendum was looked negative on here.
Nah, plus after us Remainers were called the equivalent of Holocaust deniers, I'm being quite restrained.
So open season on war examples then -good.
As PB's leading historian, any bad war examples are likely to demolished by me, so come up with your war analogies very carefully.
Mr. Johnno, indeed. UK politicians played down the level of integration but now it transpires the tentacles have a rather tight grip.
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Just imagine another 20 years in the EU,we would have never left with the brainwashing.
No - we got half the country brainwashed early and scarpered into the wilderness with no plan.
Come on bev,we joined the common market with a vote not a political union
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Yep. It is those that have tied us so closely to the EU that have fucked us over royally. Leaving now is still far better than any of the alternatives which would have had us leaving in a few years possibly with real violence. However bad the Chicken Lickens might think this is going to be, the forced ejection later would have been far worse.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Just imagine another 20 years in the EU,we would have never left with the brainwashing.
No - we got half the country brainwashed early and scarpered into the wilderness with no plan.
Come on bev,we joined the common market with a vote not a political union
Things change, but even so, that does not excuse the oversimplification that Brexit was/is presented as, nor the complete mess that is being made of the implementation so far. Mrs May should have sat on the A50 letter until the strategy was laid out and agreed. Instead she battled everyone through multiple courts and flung it at Brussels as soon as she could.
I am only amazed that some Einstein in govt did not fly over to Brussels with the A50 letter on the morning of June 24th 2016
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Mr. Glenn, most of the country was born after the last vote, which was about the EC not the EU. We had no vote on Maastricht, or Lisbon, despite manifesto pledges on the latter. The political class signed away so much that now when they finally asked the electorate what it wants, they're having a devil of a time negotiating our departure.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
You're giving up cricket in favor[sic] of ice hockey?
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
I thought using examples of war for the EU referendum was looked negative on here.
Nah, plus after us Remainers were called the equivalent of Holocaust deniers, I'm being quite restrained.
So open season on war examples then -good.
As PB's leading historian, any bad war examples are likely to demolished by me, so come up with your war analogies very carefully.
"The Kippers collapsed at GE2017 faster than the Pakistani Army in December 1971"
Mr. Johnno, indeed. UK politicians played down the level of integration but now it transpires the tentacles have a rather tight grip.
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
We could have walked out into the EEA with a minimum of disruption, though. For all the cries about "We want a multi-speed Europe" and the EU saying "No multi-speed Europe", we already have a three-speed Europe.
EEA -- EU -- Eurozone
If we just wanted a Common Market situation with no need for ever-greater union, there's always the EEA, but that's off the table under May and the Conservatives.
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
My reasons were probably similar to Jezza's. Undemocratic, capitalist hegemony, and all that.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
Funny when someone writes something that proves they actually have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes I am looking at you TSE.
If you actually knew anything about either Peter or Richard North you would know they are absolutely not advocating a cliff edge or hard Brexit. They are both in favour of the EFTA/EEA model with a Liechtenstein option to control immigration. It is as far away from hard Brexit as you can get. Which you would know if you had done than just read a tweet.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
You're giving up cricket in favor[sic] of ice hockey?
Mr. Glenn, most of the country was born after the last vote, which was about the EC not the EU. We had no vote on Maastricht, or Lisbon, despite manifesto pledges on the latter. The political class signed away so much that now when they finally asked the electorate what it wants, they're having a devil of a time negotiating our departure.
A great point is that without Brexit we would be staring down a future of qualified majority voting, £Bns in payments, endless bizarre ECJ rulings and immigration forced on us from Brussels.
Remaining was no party - and would have meant leaving in 10 years would be even more difficult.
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
Funny when someone writes something that proves they actually have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes I am looking at you TSE.
If you actually knew anything about either Peter or Richard North you would know they are absolutely not advocating a cliff edge or hard Brexit. They are both in favour of the EFTA/EEA model with a Liechtenstein option to control immigration. It is as far away from hard Brexit as you can get. Which you would know if you had done than just read a tweet.
But having concluded that a cliff edge Brexit is the most likely realisable option, Pete North has embraced it as just what the country needs to toughen the people up, rather than revisit the false premises that made him an opponent of the EU in the first place.
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
My reasons were probably similar to Jezza's. Undemocratic, capitalist hegemony, and all that.
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
Indeed, although I'd describe it as a cancer rather than a boil. The cancer of Euroscepticism will be cut out of the body politic, and irradiated until it can never again bring us to the edge of disaster or consume the energies of the host.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
Afraid I think this is a rather naive fantasy. While it is inevitable the government of the day will get some of the blame, people tend to double down on their opinions rather than change them and I can easily envisage a scenario where the EU gets the blame for shafting us, refusing to compromise, etc. Facts are not important, only perception counts. And our buck-passing politicians will do all they can to shift the blame for a bad Brexit onto the EU. This would certainly be the BoJo strategy.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Mr. Johnno, indeed. UK politicians played down the level of integration but now it transpires the tentacles have a rather tight grip.
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
We could have walked out into the EEA with a minimum of disruption, though. For all the cries about "We want a multi-speed Europe" and the EU saying "No multi-speed Europe", we already have a three-speed Europe.
EEA -- EU -- Eurozone
If we just wanted a Common Market situation with no need for ever-greater union, there's always the EEA, but that's off the table under May and the Conservatives.
As I said yesterday, I fear the politics is such that we need a bit of the disaster to realise that.
Boris going mop in hand to the EEA' (well, EFTA but that doesn't scan so well) to be the Labour jibe for the next 50 years.
PS. Apologies if my spelling is going downhill, discovering the swipe keyboard on my phone is great, but the errors are distinctly odd.
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
Indeed, although I'd describe it as a cancer rather than a boil. The cancer of Euroscepticism will be cut out of the body politic, and irradiated until it can never again bring us to the edge of disaster or consume the energies of the host.
That is only of any use if we have Eurosensible at the same time.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
Well Justin Trudeau is more telegenic than May and Corbyn I suppose and Canada has half the population of the UK and over 30 times the landmass so they have plenty of room for you. Just take an extra large coat for the winter
I don't see how a "No Deal" Brexit would end up going to a vote.
What I suppose could happen is that Parliament could vote to revoke A. 50, in the hope that the EU would agree to such revocation, but I doubt if there would be a majority for that.
If it's 'No Deal' or 'Revoke A 50' I wouldn't at all be surprised to see 'Revoke' winning in the Commons, with Hammond and many other tories on the Revoke side.
But what are the mechanics of it actually getting to a vote? There is no further vote required for us to actually leave the EU. How does one get tabled if the Government does not support it?
Least of the Remainers worries. Put it in as an amendment on an unrelated bill if needed. That's what happened to the boundary review last time, Government (blue bit anyway) didn't like it but nothing they could do.
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Roger,what the F do you know whats going on in our poor inner cities /towns (Grimsby )I remember rightly the visit you made to Bradford was a Quick drive through .
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
The cancer of Euroscepticism will be cut out of the body politic, and irradiated until it can never again bring us to the edge of disaster or consume the energies of the host.
A thousand year glorious reign of the EU.
The Kool Aid you are on sounds terrific stuff - is it available to purchase ?
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
Yes that is very likely. In the post-war period the whole 1930s generation of politicians, including those had been popular and well-regarded in their time (such as Stanley Baldwin) were condemned for their part in preparing the ground for appeasement. The 2010s generation will certainly go the same way in the not-too-distant future. History will not be kind to either Cameron or May and it will revile Johnson.
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
The cancer of Euroscepticism will be cut out of the body politic, and irradiated until it can never again bring us to the edge of disaster or consume the energies of the host.
A thousand year glorious reign of the EU.
The Kool Aid you are on sounds terrific stuff - is it available to purchase ?
Believing that incremental evolution of the status quo is the best approach is usually regarded as conservative. It's only a kind of nationalist mania that prevents some people from contemplating doing this within the context of a European federation.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
The cancer of Euroscepticism will be cut out of the body politic, and irradiated until it can never again bring us to the edge of disaster or consume the energies of the host.
A thousand year glorious reign of the EU.
The Kool Aid you are on sounds terrific stuff - is it available to purchase ?
Contact Brexit Central. They have gallons of the stuff. In fact I think that they have the entire production plant for it
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Roger,what the F do you know whats going on in our poor inner cities /towns (Grimsby )I remember rightly the visit you made to Bradford was a Quick drive through .
I have never been to Grimsby myself, but I did drive through Runcorn last night ...
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
My reasons were probably similar to Jezza's. Undemocratic, capitalist hegemony, and all that.
It'll be interesting to see how the electorate views how tightly the political class has bound us to the EU over the decades. It makes our departure much harder, but also confirms the suspicion that we should've had a vote in the past to deny such integration.
Just imagine another 20 years in the EU,we would have never left with the brainwashing.
No - we got half the country brainwashed early and scarpered into the wilderness with no plan.
Come on bev,we joined the common market with a vote not a political union
Things change, but even so, that does not excuse the oversimplification that Brexit was/is presented as, nor the complete mess that is being made of the implementation so far. Mrs May should have sat on the A50 letter until the strategy was laid out and agreed. Instead she battled everyone through multiple courts and flung it at Brussels as soon as she could.
I am only amazed that some Einstein in govt did not fly over to Brussels with the A50 letter on the morning of June 24th 2016
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
There was a huge influx of Hong Kong Chinese people pre- and around-1997 and I'm sure the demand from there is constant and keeps prices high.
Mr. Johnno, indeed. UK politicians played down the level of integration but now it transpires the tentacles have a rather tight grip.
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
We could have walked out into the EEA with a minimum of disruption, though. For all the cries about "We want a multi-speed Europe" and the EU saying "No multi-speed Europe", we already have a three-speed Europe.
EEA -- EU -- Eurozone
If we just wanted a Common Market situation with no need for ever-greater union, there's always the EEA, but that's off the table under May and the Conservatives.
The EEA for now means full free movement, not realiatic given reducing immigration was such a key part of the Leave victory.
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
The cancer of Euroscepticism will be cut out of the body politic, and irradiated until it can never again bring us to the edge of disaster or consume the energies of the host.
A thousand year glorious reign of the EU.
The Kool Aid you are on sounds terrific stuff - is it available to purchase ?
Believing that incremental evolution of the status quo is the best approach is usually regarded as conservative. It's only a kind of nationalist mania that prevents some people from contemplating doing this within the context of a European federation.
No because they are clear that the end Is not a destination they are interested in. I still find it staggering that you don't get this. People do not want a European federation. Nothing you can do can make them change their minds on that and any time you bring up the idea it will be rejected.
That Prospect magazine has an indication of the stupidity within the Tory party from the Leavers.
Not everyone’s panicking. At a “Leave means Leave” event at the Conservative Party conference in Manchester, Owen Paterson, a prominent Eurosceptic, looked with glee over the cliff edge: “If the European Union is still messing around by Christmas,” Britain should “give notice, on 1st January, that we will be moving to WTO rules.”
This would be a catastrophic error. Paul Daly, a Fellow in Law at Cambridge, tells me that a no-deal outcome “would lead to economic chaos.” The UK “would adopt, overnight, third-country status in the eyes of the European Union.” The result would be mayhem. “Planes would not take off, nuclear fuel would not be imported and haulage traffic to the Continent would grind to a halt.”
The man who drafted Article 50, John Kerr, also told me recently that “flights in and out of continental Europe [will] stop unless we negotiate some replacement for the regime we’re members of.” It’s no exaggeration, then, to say that the new Brexit Britain that is supposed to be soaring into the skies would find itself grounded on the tarmac.
I almost think the Kent situation is being underplayed. Dover port quote queues of 17 miles, widely reported, for 2 minute per lorry delays, and then that average checks would be 5-45 minutes. Well, you do the maths. And I bet 5 minutes is with all IT systems optimal for the job. Now, I don't expect scale up to 340 miles of queues ( the lorries will simply not set off), but I could well see Operation Stack bringing the M25 to a total halt.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, of they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
I've actually begun the first step in moving to Canada in preparation for a fucked up Brexit and Corbyn as PM.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
The food is best in Quebec though.
Le Quebec est l'extreme ouest de la France. Bon cuisine!
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Why would Remain voters continue to support a party whose only substantive purpose is to implement Leave? It's a question that the Conservatives urgently need an answer to.
Labour's substantive purpose at present is not primarily Brexit so the converse question does not apply to them.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
Funny when someone writes something that proves they actually have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes I am looking at you TSE.
If you actually knew anything about either Peter or Richard North you would know they are absolutely not advocating a cliff edge or hard Brexit. They are both in favour of the EFTA/EEA model with a Liechtenstein option to control immigration. It is as far away from hard Brexit as you can get. Which you would know if you had done than just read a tweet.
But having concluded that a cliff edge Brexit is the most likely realisable option, Pete North has embraced it as just what the country needs to toughen the people up, rather than revisit the false premises that made him an opponent of the EU in the first place.
There were no false premises. And he is choosing the cliff edge as a least worst option, not advocating it and certainly not celebrating it.
The very worst option of all is yours, rejecting Brexit and returning to the EU. You really would not like the consequences of that.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
Renting is just about on a par with London, according my little mite who is out there.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
There was a huge influx of Hong Kong Chinese people pre- and around-1997 and I'm sure the demand from there is constant and keeps prices high.
Yep quite probably. I Love Vancouver. The most cosmopolitan city I have ever visited and one that seems entirely at ease with itself (if not a bit fed up about housing costs)
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Roger,what the F do you know whats going on in our poor inner cities /towns (Grimsby )I remember rightly the visit you made to Bradford was a Quick drive through .
I have never been to Grimsby myself, but I did drive through Runcorn last night ...
Do we even know if roger has ever been to Grimsby ?
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
Yes that is very likely. In the post-war period the whole 1930s generation of politicians, including those had been popular and well-regarded in their time (such as Stanley Baldwin) were condemned for their part in preparing the ground for appeasement. The 2010s generation will certainly go the same way in the not-too-distant future. History will not be kind to either Cameron or May and it will revile Johnson.
No need to wait for History, Mr Nick. The only people who now speak up for them is TSE, and he speaks up for only one of them.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
Renting is just about on a par with London, according my little mite who is out there.
The one thing I would say about it is there are a lot more homeless to be seen on the streets compared to London (as an example). That did surprise me.
Why would Remain voters continue to support a party whose only substantive purpose is to implement Leave? It's a question that the Conservatives urgently need an answer to.
Labour's substantive purpose at present is not primarily Brexit so the converse question does not apply to them.
I don't want to put words in their mouths, but if you think Corbyn will hurt you financially more than Brexit will, then that would be a logical reason to vote Conservatives.
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
I thought using examples of war for the EU referendum was looked negative on here.
Nah, plus after us Remainers were called the equivalent of Holocaust deniers, I'm being quite restrained.
Oh please, like there hasn't been shit flown about all over the place in both directions.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Putting the milk in the tea last?
No, all the milk and honey is at Calais and beyond.
Why would Remain voters continue to support a party whose only substantive purpose is to implement Leave? It's a question that the Conservatives urgently need an answer to.
Labour's substantive purpose at present is not primarily Brexit so the converse question does not apply to them.
And it is difficult to make the case that they are the party of economic competence (such that they haven't destroyed that reputation) when they are dedicating themselves to do significant damage to the UK economy.
Get out of that one, Tezza. If there was a sensible centrist party with 50% of the Cons MPs who voted remain and some mild left of centre Lab MPs who are anti-Jezzaites...I would jump to it in a heartbeat.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
The Sun will go supernova and destroy the entire solar system.
I think history will be kind to Cameron and Osborne. The government they led was decent, and a well managed coalition arrangement. It didn't get to grips with some major things it said it would, to be sure, and as for Brexit, well at worst they proved inadequate to the task at hand.
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Roger,what the F do you know whats going on in our poor inner cities /towns (Grimsby )I remember rightly the visit you made to Bradford was a Quick drive through .
I have never been to Grimsby myself, but I did drive through Runcorn last night ...
Do we even know if roger has ever been to Grimsby ?
Grimsby? Ha! I've been all the way to Cleethorpes - the station is right on the seafront!
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
I don't see what your point is: you go from those things being "predictions here" to their being what is actually happening. The fact that something has been prophesied is no guarantee that it will happen, but also no guarantee that it won't.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
The Sun will go supernova and destroy the entire solar system.
Why would Remain voters continue to support a party whose only substantive purpose is to implement Leave? It's a question that the Conservatives urgently need an answer to.
Labour's substantive purpose at present is not primarily Brexit so the converse question does not apply to them.
I don't want to put words in their mouths, but if you think Corbyn will hurt you financially more than Brexit will, then that would be a logical reason to vote Conservatives.
"We hate your guts, we're doing something you think is crazy, now vote for us because we think the other lot are even crazier than we are" is not much of a sales pitch.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
The Sun will go supernova and destroy the entire solar system.
And the black hole Sag A* will consume the galaxy
Now hang on, Bev, I think you're taking this a little too seriously
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Roger,what the F do you know whats going on in our poor inner cities /towns (Grimsby )I remember rightly the visit you made to Bradford was a Quick drive through .
I have never been to Grimsby myself, but I did drive through Runcorn last night ...
Do we even know if roger has ever been to Grimsby ?
I'm sure he has, if only to try the exceedingly good guacamole they sell in the chippies there.
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Roger,what the F do you know whats going on in our poor inner cities /towns (Grimsby )I remember rightly the visit you made to Bradford was a Quick drive through .
I have never been to Grimsby myself, but I did drive through Runcorn last night ...
Do we even know if roger has ever been to Grimsby ?
I suspect Roger has burned his passport so that he can never be deported from the Riviera
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
Afraid I think this is a rather naive fantasy. While it is inevitable the government of the day will get some of the blame, people tend to double down on their opinions rather than change them and I can easily envisage a scenario where the EU gets the blame for shafting us, refusing to compromise, etc. Facts are not important, only perception counts. And our buck-passing politicians will do all they can to shift the blame for a bad Brexit onto the EU. This would certainly be the BoJo strategy.
More a fear than a fantasy - I've always been of the opinion that the Eurozone was a mistake and avoiding joining it was the best decision made in Downing Street for years. While people do double down on their opinions, they can still end up changing them, and when they do, they often swing hard from one extreme to the other. It's related to the halo effect that implies things are either wholly good or wholly bad - if they are pressed sufficiently to change from "it's bad" to "it's good", going nuanced on that scale is often rare.
Remainers would love it if the options on the table were 'Leave with No Deal' or 'Revoke A50 and Remain'.
Some may even go so far as to sabotage the prospects of a good deal in the hope that revocation comes in to play.
As a matter of interest what were your reasons for voting 'Leave'? My mental picture of a typical Leaver is a Tory like Casino Royal who stand up in the toilet if they hear the national anthem or a Labour voter from Grimsby who doesn't like foreigners. You don't strike me as either.
Roger,what the F do you know whats going on in our poor inner cities /towns (Grimsby )I remember rightly the visit you made to Bradford was a Quick drive through .
I have never been to Grimsby myself, but I did drive through Runcorn last night ...
Do we even know if roger has ever been to Grimsby ?
I suspect Roger has burned his passport so that he can never be deported from the Riviera
Mr. Johnno, indeed. UK politicians played down the level of integration but now it transpires the tentacles have a rather tight grip.
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
We could have walked out into the EEA with a minimum of disruption, though. For all the cries about "We want a multi-speed Europe" and the EU saying "No multi-speed Europe", we already have a three-speed Europe.
EEA -- EU -- Eurozone
If we just wanted a Common Market situation with no need for ever-greater union, there's always the EEA, but that's off the table under May and the Conservatives.
The EEA for now means full free movement, not realiatic given reducing immigration was such a key part of the Leave victory.
EEA in a decade is more realistic
We haven't even used the controls available under "free movement"; suddenly applying them would look like we were doing something new on immigration and would have been fully compatible with EEA membership (fully compatible with retained EU membership for that matter, but that's by-the-by)
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
Funny when someone writes something that proves they actually have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes I am looking at you TSE.
If you actually knew anything about either Peter or Richard North you would know they are absolutely not advocating a cliff edge or hard Brexit. They are both in favour of the EFTA/EEA model with a Liechtenstein option to control immigration. It is as far away from hard Brexit as you can get. Which you would know if you had done than just read a tweet.
Yet another Brexiteer looking for someone to blame.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced he thinks he and his ilk are going to be seen in the same light as the guilty men who gave us appeasement in the 1930s which ended up screwing the country.
I thought using examples of war for the EU referendum was looked negative on here.
Nah, plus after us Remainers were called the equivalent of Holocaust deniers, I'm being quite restrained.
Oh please, like there hasn't been shit flown about all over the place in both directions.
Shush, I'm trying to win an argument on the internet and take the high ground, please don't bring reality into this.
Mr. Johnno, indeed. UK politicians played down the level of integration but now it transpires the tentacles have a rather tight grip.
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
We could have walked out into the EEA with a minimum of disruption, though. For all the cries about "We want a multi-speed Europe" and the EU saying "No multi-speed Europe", we already have a three-speed Europe.
EEA -- EU -- Eurozone
If we just wanted a Common Market situation with no need for ever-greater union, there's always the EEA, but that's off the table under May and the Conservatives.
The EEA for now means full free movement, not realiatic given reducing immigration was such a key part of the Leave victory.
EEA in a decade is more realistic
But not all immigration comes from the EU. EU immigrants are some of the most able and worthwhile there are. So it would be possible to reduce immigration by tackling non-EU immigration.
The EEA option should be on the table. I simply don't understand why it isn't.
I would also like to thank Mr Meeks for the earlier thread header. He puts the rest of us to shame, both in terms of output and content.
Re Vancouver - having just returned from there I agree that it is a most delightful city. If someone were to offer me a job there I would go like a shot. But like Mr Tyndall I was surprised to see beggars on the street.
There are lots of young British and Aussies working there in the bars and hotels and the tourism industry, using the 2 year working visa option. A wonderful country and one I look forward to visiting again. Soon.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
The Sun will go supernova and destroy the entire solar system.
And the black hole Sag A* will consume the galaxy
Now hang on, Bev, I think you're taking this a little too seriously
No Sunil, if I was taking it seriously I would be pointing that baryons (protons, neutrons, etc) are unstable and will eventually decay leaving only leptons, quarks and photons. It may take some trillions of years to get to that point but the universe will probably still be waiting on "Leave" admitting that Brexit was an error.
I think history will be kind to Cameron and Osborne. The government they led was decent, and a well managed coalition arrangement. It didn't get to grips with some major things it said it would, to be sure, and as for Brexit, well at worst they proved inadequate to the task at hand.
I agree about Osborne - his opposition to holding the referendum has already been proved prescient though his vendetta against May seems rather childish at times. But Cameron will be eternally tarred with the Brexit brush. In the (very unlikely) event that it is a roaring success he will get the credit. But in the (much more likely) event that it is a humiliating disaster the lion's share of the blame will - deservedly - fall on him.
Comments
It would upset a lot of people but probably not a majority of people.
It is precisely the other side of the no one knows what Brexit they want coin that the govt (in less useless hands, admittedly) could take the initiative.
They have 80 remote parking bays for customs checking. Dover/Channel Tunnel is expecting to see a 100 fold increase in good needing customs clearance. Tarmac, portakabins, staff, equipment and training are needed to get spaces and the ability to process at those spaces into the 10000s, perhaps Manston could be needed, if Bluewater has a single story car park, perhaps the government can requisition and close that and shut down all single storey car parked supermarkets in Kent.
The in laws are Kentish leavers, and I admit to a moment of schadenfreude that this might befall them. But then, crap, if they need to get to hospital during a hard Brexit, that would be no laughing matter.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
http://courtnewsuk.co.uk/moped-muggers-laugh-joke-get-13-years/
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
I am only amazed that some Einstein in govt did not fly over to Brussels with the A50 letter on the morning of June 24th 2016
It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be:
Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?"
... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
By that I mean they read a couple of his tweets and didn't interview him - top top journalism.
Cummings (read Gove) is indeed bashing the May/Hammond axis of inept - they are bringing their merdus touch to everything - not just Brexit.
For all the cries about "We want a multi-speed Europe" and the EU saying "No multi-speed Europe", we already have a three-speed Europe.
EEA -- EU -- Eurozone
If we just wanted a Common Market situation with no need for ever-greater union, there's always the EEA, but that's off the table under May and the Conservatives.
Yes I am looking at you TSE.
If you actually knew anything about either Peter or Richard North you would know they are absolutely not advocating a cliff edge or hard Brexit. They are both in favour of the EFTA/EEA model with a Liechtenstein option to control immigration. It is as far away from hard Brexit as you can get. Which you would know if you had done than just read a tweet.
Remaining was no party - and would have meant leaving in 10 years would be even more difficult.
We are lancing a boil - there will be puss but its in the greater good.
Boris going mop in hand to the EEA' (well, EFTA but that doesn't scan so well) to be the Labour jibe for the next 50 years.
PS. Apologies if my spelling is going downhill, discovering the swipe keyboard on my phone is great, but the errors are distinctly odd.
Dont watch if easily offended
http://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/eminem-attacks-donald-trump-scathing-11323842
The Kool Aid you are on sounds terrific stuff - is it available to purchase ?
EEA in a decade is more realistic
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Labour's substantive purpose at present is not primarily Brexit so the converse question does not apply to them.
The very worst option of all is yours, rejecting Brexit and returning to the EU. You really would not like the consequences of that.
Get out of that one, Tezza. If there was a sensible centrist party with 50% of the Cons MPs who voted remain and some mild left of centre Lab MPs who are anti-Jezzaites...I would jump to it in a heartbeat.
While people do double down on their opinions, they can still end up changing them, and when they do, they often swing hard from one extreme to the other. It's related to the halo effect that implies things are either wholly good or wholly bad - if they are pressed sufficiently to change from "it's bad" to "it's good", going nuanced on that scale is often rare.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/11/home-office-couple-living-legally-in-uk-criminals
https://twitter.com/PeteNorth303/status/917698800214593536
The EEA option should be on the table. I simply don't understand why it isn't.
I would also like to thank Mr Meeks for the earlier thread header. He puts the rest of us to shame, both in terms of output and content.
Re Vancouver - having just returned from there I agree that it is a most delightful city. If someone were to offer me a job there I would go like a shot. But like Mr Tyndall I was surprised to see beggars on the street.
There are lots of young British and Aussies working there in the bars and hotels and the tourism industry, using the 2 year working visa option. A wonderful country and one I look forward to visiting again. Soon.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.