Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
Renting is just about on a par with London, according my little mite who is out there.
The one thing I would say about it is there are a lot more homeless to be seen on the streets compared to London (as an example). That did surprise me.
To@cyclefree also Not that surprising when one considers it. Vancouver is the only city in Canada one could survive outside. It is warmer than London year round. This draws in the homeless nationwide. Secondly, it attracts naive kids from tiny, very remote communities looking for employment and adventure. With prohibitive housing costs, it is easy to see how it can go wrong.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
I wrote this piece last year, partly in jest, but one of my Leave supporting friends is convinced that it is going to come true in the hardest of hard Brexits.
The Brexiteers, Juncker’s fifth columnists?
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
Afraid I think this is a rather naive fantasy. While it is inevitable the government of the day will get some of the blame, people tend to double down on their opinions rather than change them and I can easily envisage a scenario where the EU gets the blame for shafting us, refusing to compromise, etc. Facts are not important, only perception counts. And our buck-passing politicians will do all they can to shift the blame for a bad Brexit onto the EU. This would certainly be the BoJo strategy.
More a fear than a fantasy - I've always been of the opinion that the Eurozone was a mistake and avoiding joining it was the best decision made in Downing Street for years. While people do double down on their opinions, they can still end up changing them, and when they do, they often swing hard from one extreme to the other. It's related to the halo effect that implies things are either wholly good or wholly bad - if they are pressed sufficiently to change from "it's bad" to "it's good", going nuanced on that scale is often rare.
I think you are right here, while people often double down on a "bad" idea rather than admit a mistake (should Brexit turn out to be one), if public opinion does swing against Brexit it will likely do so in a violent and angry way - less a case of the "guilty men" and more a Ceausescu, Mussolini or Gadaffi (without the physical violence, one hopes). But it certainly would see the current lot run out of town with pitchforks.
For me the question in that scenario is what other collateral damage comes from the violent swing of the pendulum. What else is discredited along with Brexit? The expenses scandal had far reaching effects in terms of loss of confidence in democracy, not just in that particuar intake of politicians, and I think that is still being felt to this day.
"Brexit hasn't worked! Stuff the Tories - it's time for full on socialism!" may very well end up being the case.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
I wrote this piece last year, partly in jest, but one of my Leave supporting friends is convinced that it is going to come true in the hardest of hard Brexits.
The Brexiteers, Juncker’s fifth columnists?
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
That would at least be a sustainable position - the half in half out that we had wasn't. There are only two intellectually sound positions in the long term. In the EZ or out of the EU (including the SM in the longer term). I would have a favoured a transition with SM/Norway as the staging post.
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
You will have to get used to every sign being in French as well as English - even outside the Francophone areas. Even in the middle of the Rockies all the road signs were bilingual.
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
Is TM Canadian too
Or just trying to Klingon
She’s a Vulcan. Unemotional and cold, in public at least.
Spock: Really, Doctor. You must learn to govern your passions. They will be your undoing. Logic suggests... Bones: Logic? My god, the man's talking about logic! We're talking about universal armageddon! You green-blooded, inhuman...!
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
Funny when someone writes something that proves they actually have no idea what they are talking about.
Yes I am looking at you TSE.
If you actually knew anything about either Peter or Richard North you would know they are absolutely not advocating a cliff edge or hard Brexit. They are both in favour of the EFTA/EEA model with a Liechtenstein option to control immigration. It is as far away from hard Brexit as you can get. Which you would know if you had done than just read a tweet.
Like I said it is him dealing with the best of a bad lot. He has spent years arguing for a Norway option and is only settling for Hard Brexit now because it is still better than staying in. Of course he is right about that although perhaps wrong that it is now the only option. The North boys were never known for their ability to get on with anyone else so some of this is sour grapes.
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
You will have to get used to every sign being in French as well as English - even outside the Francophone areas. Even in the middle of the Rockies all the road signs were bilingual.
Train station signs in India are usually trilingual: English, Hindi and the local state language.
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
You will have to get used to every sign being in French as well as English - even outside the Francophone areas. Even in the middle of the Rockies all the road signs were bilingual.
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
You will have to get used to every sign being in French as well as English - even outside the Francophone areas. Even in the middle of the Rockies all the road signs were bilingual.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Here we go. Why the British Centre has collapsed. How do you sell ' Austerity ' when a Magic Money Tree exists for this sort of nonsense ? Even if winter flu is worse than expected let alone a genuine NHS crisis happens this can be referenced. It can be referenced against any unmet public spending need anywhere let alone hard Remain areas.
Afraid I think this is a rather naive fantasy. While it is inevitable the government of the day will get some of the blame, people tend to double down on their opinions rather than change them and I can easily envisage a scenario where the EU gets the blame for shafting us, refusing to compromise, etc. Facts are not important, only perception counts. And our buck-passing politicians will do all they can to shift the blame for a bad Brexit onto the EU. This would certainly be the BoJo strategy.
More a fear than a fantasy - I've always been of the opinion that the Eurozone was a mistake and avoiding joining it was the best decision made in Downing Street for years. While people do double down on their opinions, they can still end up changing them, and when they do, they often swing hard from one extreme to the other. It's related to the halo effect that implies things are either wholly good or wholly bad - if they are pressed sufficiently to change from "it's bad" to "it's good", going nuanced on that scale is often rare.
I think you are right here, while people often double down on a "bad" idea rather than admit a mistake (should Brexit turn out to be one), if public opinion does swing against Brexit it will likely do so in a violent and angry way - less a case of the "guilty men" and more a Ceausescu, Mussolini or Gadaffi (without the physical violence, one hopes). But it certainly would see the current lot run out of town with pitchforks.
For me the question in that scenario is what other collateral damage comes from the violent swing of the pendulum. What else is discredited along with Brexit? The expenses scandal had far reaching effects in terms of loss of confidence in democracy, not just in that particuar intake of politicians, and I think that is still being felt to this day.
"Brexit hasn't worked! Stuff the Tories - it's time for full on socialism!" may very well end up being the case.
And, unfortunately, the option of emigrating isn't open to me as it is others. Not only would I not like to abandon my country (I did serve it for 17 years in the Armed Forces, after all), with my son being so severely autistic, a move such as that, involving the support systems of an entire other country, would be multiply difficult - if another country would accept the "burden" to their state that he embodies.
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
You will have to get used to every sign being in French as well as English - even outside the Francophone areas. Even in the middle of the Rockies all the road signs were bilingual.
I think history will be kind to Cameron and Osborne. The government they led was decent, and a well managed coalition arrangement. It didn't get to grips with some major things it said it would, to be sure, and as for Brexit, well at worst they proved inadequate to the task at hand.
I agree about Osborne - his opposition to holding the referendum has already been proved prescient though his vendetta against May seems rather childish at times. But Cameron will be eternally tarred with the Brexit brush. In the (very unlikely) event that it is a roaring success he will get the credit. But in the (much more likely) event that it is a humiliating disaster the lion's share of the blame will - deservedly - fall on him.
That's bonkers, given that he was almost single-handedly working his socks off for Remain, whilst Labour stood aside and did nothing.
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
Is TM Canadian too
Or just trying to Klingon
She’s a Vulcan. Unemotional and cold, in public at least.
Are you suggesting that Andrea Leadsom was right - Britain needs a mother?
That’s how bad Mrs May has performed that I do wonder if it might have been for the best if Mrs Leadsom had won.
She wouldn’t have treated our EU citizens so callously.
As I said yesterday. The problem is you have a Remainer in charge. I am not saying she is ideologically committed to seeing Brexit fail, just that as a Remainer she does not understand what drove people to vote Brexit and has wrongly seized upon immigration as the be all and end all. It is a reflection of her own biases and lack of understanding. I think she also feels she has to be the toughest Brexiteer around for fear of being accused of selling out.
This is before we even get to her basic inability to organise a piss up in a brewery and her total lack of anything apparently approaching human emotion.
I think you are right here, while people often double down on a "bad" idea rather than admit a mistake (should Brexit turn out to be one), if public opinion does swing against Brexit it will likely do so in a violent and angry way - less a case of the "guilty men" and more a Ceausescu, Mussolini or Gadaffi (without the physical violence, one hopes). But it certainly would see the current lot run out of town with pitchforks.
I think the effect could first be felt within Conservative circles. Ambitious young politicians who found themselves spouting lies that were fed to them by more experienced Eurosceptic politicians will be furious when they realise that supporting Brexit has led not to serving in a Boris/Gove cabinet, but instead to premature career suicide. They will need to find a way to save themselves, and the most obvious answer is to disown the ringleaders.
The problem is you have a Remainer in charge. I am not saying she is ideologically committed to seeing Brexit fail, just that as a Remainer she does not understand what drove people to vote Brexit and has wrongly seized upon immigration as the be all and end all.
No, the problem is Brexit can't be delivered by anyone.
If she focused on "sovereignty" the immigrationists would bring her down
Brexit is a disaster. May can't fix that. Nobody could
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
Is TM Canadian too
Or just trying to Klingon
She’s a Vulcan. Unemotional and cold, in public at least.
Are you suggesting that Andrea Leadsom was right - Britain needs a mother?
That’s how bad Mrs May has performed that I do wonder if it might have been for the best if Mrs Leadsom had won.
She wouldn’t have treated our EU citizens so callously.
I thought Theresa May wanted a deal on citizens rights separate from anything else but the EU said we couldn't talk about it?
It was a fairly transparent tactic to anchor the negotiations around a cut off date for free movement of people. The fact that the real talks have been taking so long illustrates that her offer wasn't comprehensive enough to deal with all the associated issues (even setting aside the question of jurisdiction).
I think history will be kind to Cameron and Osborne. The government they led was decent, and a well managed coalition arrangement. It didn't get to grips with some major things it said it would, to be sure, and as for Brexit, well at worst they proved inadequate to the task at hand.
I agree about Osborne - his opposition to holding the referendum has already been proved prescient though his vendetta against May seems rather childish at times. But Cameron will be eternally tarred with the Brexit brush. In the (very unlikely) event that it is a roaring success he will get the credit. But in the (much more likely) event that it is a humiliating disaster the lion's share of the blame will - deservedly - fall on him.
That's bonkers, given that he was almost single-handedly working his socks off for Remain, whilst Labour stood aside and did nothing.
He will be blamed for allowing the referendum to happen and then losing it. Labour may be also-rans in the blame stakes, but Cameron's hand was on the tiller when the ship went down.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
There was a huge influx of Hong Kong Chinese people pre- and around-1997 and I'm sure the demand from there is constant and keeps prices high.
Yep quite probably. I Love Vancouver. The most cosmopolitan city I have ever visited and one that seems entirely at ease with itself (if not a bit fed up about housing costs)
You should have heard the south Asian tax driver taking me to the airport talking about female Chinese women drivers!
The problem is you have a Remainer in charge. I am not saying she is ideologically committed to seeing Brexit fail, just that as a Remainer she does not understand what drove people to vote Brexit and has wrongly seized upon immigration as the be all and end all.
No, the problem is Brexit can't be delivered by anyone.
If she focused on "sovereignty" the immigrationists would bring her down
Brexit is a disaster. May can't fix that. Nobody could
He will be blamed for allowing the referendum to happen and then losing it. Labour may be also-rans in the blame stakes, but Cameron's hand was on the tiller when the ship went down.
That's like blaming Churchill for Attlee's Indian partition disaster, on the basis that he lost the 1945 election.
I think you are right here, while people often double down on a "bad" idea rather than admit a mistake (should Brexit turn out to be one), if public opinion does swing against Brexit it will likely do so in a violent and angry way - less a case of the "guilty men" and more a Ceausescu, Mussolini or Gadaffi (without the physical violence, one hopes). But it certainly would see the current lot run out of town with pitchforks.
I think the effect could first be felt within Conservative circles. Ambitious young politicians who found themselves spouting lies that were fed to them by more experienced Eurosceptic politicians will be furious when they realise that supporting Brexit has led not to serving in a Boris/Gove cabinet, but instead to premature career suicide. They will need to find a way to save themselves, and the most obvious answer is to disown the ringleaders.
I am used to, though not comfortable with, the uncompromisingly snobbish Remainer view that the vast majority of Leave voters are moronic untermenschen unable to form their own judgment on anything, and therefore infinitely susceptible to being "fed lies", but I hadn't seen the principle extended to MPs. Do you really think there are MPs as thick as that?
I think you are right here, while people often double down on a "bad" idea rather than admit a mistake (should Brexit turn out to be one), if public opinion does swing against Brexit it will likely do so in a violent and angry way - less a case of the "guilty men" and more a Ceausescu, Mussolini or Gadaffi (without the physical violence, one hopes). But it certainly would see the current lot run out of town with pitchforks.
I think the effect could first be felt within Conservative circles. Ambitious young politicians who found themselves spouting lies that were fed to them by more experienced Eurosceptic politicians will be furious when they realise that supporting Brexit has led not to serving in a Boris/Gove cabinet, but instead to premature career suicide. They will need to find a way to save themselves, and the most obvious answer is to disown the ringleaders.
I am used to, though not comfortable with, the uncompromisingly snobbish Remainer view that the vast majority of Leave voters are moronic untermenschen unable to form their own judgment on anything, and therefore infinitely susceptible to being "fed lies", but I hadn't seen the principle extended to MPs. Do you really think there are MPs as thick as that?
I've yet to hear an explaination of how all this doesn't end with the savvy third of consumers who currently fix paying more to compensate for the two thirds who don't fix paying less. But doubtless the government will be happy to cross that bridge when it comes to it if it means
There isn't an explanation, because that is precisely the idea: to prevent the elderly, the vulnerable and the non-savvy from subsisiding the often better-off savvy consumers. Presumably you support that.
It's what I'd file under " interesting " rather than say I supported it. But in terms of the politics which is why we are all here.. #1 Will the factors that lead the savvy third to switch and fix mean they are also more likely to register and vote ? #2 Will they notice they are now paying more because the government decided to penalize their savvyness ? #3 Will the unsavvy two thirds notice what's happened and reward a conservative government to compensate for any back lash amongst the savvy ?
Those aren't rhetorical questions. I don't know. Though by sense is it's all a bit can kicking. Giving in to the sense that something must be done and that what that something is is less important than that it is done.
Anyway as a small g Green I find the fixation on end price a distraction. The best way to cut fuel bills is lower consumption. We've parsecs to go insulation and efficiency. Though that is a harder narrative to sell than clobbering the Big 6.
That’s already underway. Domestic energy consumption has been trending down for ten years or so, despite increasing population.
And despite a dramatic increase in the number of electric cars.
What's amazing, though, is that we're only about 40% of the way through the benefits of the move towards more efficient domestic appliances, better insulation, and LED lighting. And there's another wave coming as people swap out old air conditioners (in commercial and industrial) for modern ones.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
There was a huge influx of Hong Kong Chinese people pre- and around-1997 and I'm sure the demand from there is constant and keeps prices high.
Yep quite probably. I Love Vancouver. The most cosmopolitan city I have ever visited and one that seems entirely at ease with itself (if not a bit fed up about housing costs)
You should have heard the south Asian tax driver taking me to the airport talking about female Chinese women drivers!
The Chinese are fiercely competitive. They also believe everything is mandated by fate. That's a fatal combination as far as driving standards are concerned.
I think history will be kind to Cameron and Osborne. The government they led was decent, and a well managed coalition arrangement. It didn't get to grips with some major things it said it would, to be sure, and as for Brexit, well at worst they proved inadequate to the task at hand.
I agree about Osborne - his opposition to holding the referendum has already been proved prescient though his vendetta against May seems rather childish at times. But Cameron will be eternally tarred with the Brexit brush. In the (very unlikely) event that it is a roaring success he will get the credit. But in the (much more likely) event that it is a humiliating disaster the lion's share of the blame will - deservedly - fall on him.
That's bonkers, given that he was almost single-handedly working his socks off for Remain, whilst Labour stood aside and did nothing.
He will be blamed for allowing the referendum to happen and then losing it. Labour may be also-rans in the blame stakes, but Cameron's hand was on the tiller when the ship went down.
"He is intelligent, but not experienced. His pattern indicates two-dimensional thinking."
I think you are right here, while people often double down on a "bad" idea rather than admit a mistake (should Brexit turn out to be one), if public opinion does swing against Brexit it will likely do so in a violent and angry way - less a case of the "guilty men" and more a Ceausescu, Mussolini or Gadaffi (without the physical violence, one hopes). But it certainly would see the current lot run out of town with pitchforks.
I think the effect could first be felt within Conservative circles. Ambitious young politicians who found themselves spouting lies that were fed to them by more experienced Eurosceptic politicians will be furious when they realise that supporting Brexit has led not to serving in a Boris/Gove cabinet, but instead to premature career suicide. They will need to find a way to save themselves, and the most obvious answer is to disown the ringleaders.
I am used to, though not comfortable with, the uncompromisingly snobbish Remainer view that the vast majority of Leave voters are moronic untermenschen unable to form their own judgment on anything, and therefore infinitely susceptible to being "fed lies", but I hadn't seen the principle extended to MPs. Do you really think there are MPs as thick as that?
I cite Owen Paterson downthread as an example.
Yeah mad as a meat axe, obv, but off his own bat - no suggestion that a big boy persuaded him of the eurosceptic case and ran away.
Vancouver or Toronto? I'd like to live in one of those.
Vancouver is the 3rd most expensive city in the world to buy a house apparently (well according to all the Vancouver people we met when we were there in August). Average house price of a detached house in the Greater Vancouver area (which is large) is $1.8 million Canadian - about £1.2 million.
There was a huge influx of Hong Kong Chinese people pre- and around-1997 and I'm sure the demand from there is constant and keeps prices high.
Yep quite probably. I Love Vancouver. The most cosmopolitan city I have ever visited and one that seems entirely at ease with itself (if not a bit fed up about housing costs)
You should have heard the south Asian tax driver taking me to the airport talking about female Chinese women drivers!
The Chinese are fiercely competitive. They also believe everything is mandated by fate. That's a fatal combination as far as driving standards are concerned.
His basic complaint was that they drive slowly in the middle of the road and then turn off without indicating - but in rather florid language. The main road south from the centre and over the river has a massive accident rate - but it falls dramatically once the Chinese residential district is passed.
My current next Conservative leader betting is as follows. I'm green on everyone except Philip Hammond and Jacob Rees-Mogg, who are both big reds. I win big with Michael Gove, Jeremy Hunt and Damian Green. My next best is Amber Rudd.
I could really do with Jeremy Corbyn not being next Prime Minister as well.
My current next Conservative leader betting is as follows. I'm green on everyone except Philip Hammond and Jacob Rees-Mogg, who are both big reds. I win big with Michael Gove, Jeremy Hunt and Damian Green. My next best is Amber Rudd.
I could really do with Jeremy Corbyn not being next Prime Minister as well.
I'm in a similar position, except I've got a big fat huge red against Boris, which was profitable last time.
Still think Amber Rudd's majority is going to stop her becoming PM/Leader.
I think history will be kind to Cameron and Osborne. The government they led was decent, and a well managed coalition arrangement. It didn't get to grips with some major things it said it would, to be sure, and as for Brexit, well at worst they proved inadequate to the task at hand.
I agree about Osborne - his opposition to holding the referendum has already been proved prescient though his vendetta against May seems rather childish at times. But Cameron will be eternally tarred with the Brexit brush. In the (very unlikely) event that it is a roaring success he will get the credit. But in the (much more likely) event that it is a humiliating disaster the lion's share of the blame will - deservedly - fall on him.
That's bonkers, given that he was almost single-handedly working his socks off for Remain, whilst Labour stood aside and did nothing.
Such absolute rubbish. Corbyn was absolutely correct to remain aloof from the official Remain campaign, because it was shite, it seemed expressly designed to drive the working-class to a Leave vote. Corbyn did eleven huge rallies across the country in the run-up to the referendum, on top of his articles and media appearances.
65% of Labour voters went Remain. The Lib Dems only got 68% of their voters to go Remain. To be 3% behind the party most wedded to the EU on getting your voters out for Remain was a massive achievement. Many of those who ended up going for Leave will have been those who voted Labour in the 2015 general election, but UKIP in 2014 when they topped the European Parliament election.
My current next Conservative leader betting is as follows. I'm green on everyone except Philip Hammond and Jacob Rees-Mogg, who are both big reds. I win big with Michael Gove, Jeremy Hunt and Damian Green. My next best is Amber Rudd.
I could really do with Jeremy Corbyn not being next Prime Minister as well.
My current next Conservative leader betting is as follows. I'm green on everyone except Philip Hammond and Jacob Rees-Mogg, who are both big reds. I win big with Michael Gove, Jeremy Hunt and Damian Green. My next best is Amber Rudd.
I could really do with Jeremy Corbyn not being next Prime Minister as well.
JICWNBNPM
I don't mind him being Prime Minister eventually (well I do, but not for present purposes). But I particularly don't want him to be next Prime Minister.
Weird to see May offer a Brexit blank cheque. Surely there has to be a price beyond which Brexit is too expensive.
That's the stupid thing. The no deal that's better than a bad deal is staying in the EU. The other no deal is just shooting ourselves in the foot.
Staying in the EU is far and away the worst deal.
BATNA - the best alternative to negotiated agreement is a thing in negotiations. If we strip out the ideology of Brexit and just stick with negotiating tactics and strategy, staying put and being uncooperative works best because you lock in your current benefits. Voiding your benefits and then refusing to negotiate them back in again is stupid. The problem is the government is more concerned to haggle with Leavers than the EU.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Aren't you worried about the Brexit zombie apocalypse?
Weird to see May offer a Brexit blank cheque. Surely there has to be a price beyond which Brexit is too expensive.
That's the stupid thing. The no deal that's better than a bad deal is staying in the EU. The other no deal is just shooting ourselves in the foot.
Staying in the EU is far and away the worst deal.
BATNA - the best alternative to negotiated agreement is a thing in negotiations. If we strip out the ideology of Brexit and just stick with negotiating tactics and strategy, staying put and being uncooperative works best because you lock in your current benefits. Voiding your benefits and then refusing to negotiate them back in again is stupid. The problem is the government is more concerned to haggle with Leavers than the EU.
What you fail to realise is that we will eventually have to leave the EU no matter what. 27 other countries are not going to put up with us stopping what they want and we are never going to accept their direction of travel. Even if you Remainers win this battle (which you won't) we will be back in the same position in a few years and next time it will be even worse.
You have had 40 years to sell the EU as a project to the British public and you have failed. If we do end up being forced to remain there is only one way public opinion is going to go. And there will be plenty of us making sure that is the case.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Aren't you worried about the Brexit zombie apocalypse?
Even if you Remainers win this battle (which you won't) we will be back in the same position in a few years and next time it will be even worse.
You really are in complete denial. Do you think there will be any appetite to repeat this farce again while anyone who experienced it is still living?
If you think there is any appetite for your federal Europe then you are the one in denial. As I say you have had 40 years to sell it to the public and have failed completely and utterly.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Aren't you worried about the Brexit zombie apocalypse?
I'm coming to a view that Gove would be a good unity contender - maybe the 2017/18 Michael Howard.
Gove has the most abysmal poll ratings of the lot, the Tories may as well hand the election to Corbyn on a plate if they make him leader. Boris as PM and Gove as Chancellor would be far better, Gove could be Osborne to Boris' Cameron
Mr. Johnno, indeed. UK politicians played down the level of integration but now it transpires the tentacles have a rather tight grip.
Without consulting the electorate we've been bound ever closer to the EU, and now it's difficult to leave. That's not a minor point, though I doubt it'll be raised much by the media.
Edited extra bit: Mr. Eagles, the EU will only integrate more on the economic side, exacerbating tensions between conformity/harmonisation and the preferences of each individual nation state.
That always was the strategic choice. To be part of a country call the EU, or to be the UK.
We could have walked out into the EEA with a minimum of disruption, though. For all the cries about "We want a multi-speed Europe" and the EU saying "No multi-speed Europe", we already have a three-speed Europe.
EEA -- EU -- Eurozone
If we just wanted a Common Market situation with no need for ever-greater union, there's always the EEA, but that's off the table under May and the Conservatives.
The EEA for now means full free movement, not realiatic given reducing immigration was such a key part of the Leave victory.
EEA in a decade is more realistic
We haven't even used the controls available under "free movement"; suddenly applying them would look like we were doing something new on immigration and would have been fully compatible with EEA membership (fully compatible with retained EU membership for that matter, but that's by-the-by)
It was Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 which was the real problem not failing to use the minor controls on free movement permitted within the EEA
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Aren't you worried about the Brexit zombie apocalypse?
I admit, that one does worry me. I need to find a bolt-hole on an offshore island.
Weird to see May offer a Brexit blank cheque. Surely there has to be a price beyond which Brexit is too expensive.
That's the stupid thing. The no deal that's better than a bad deal is staying in the EU. The other no deal is just shooting ourselves in the foot.
Staying in the EU is far and away the worst deal.
BATNA - the best alternative to negotiated agreement is a thing in negotiations. If we strip out the ideology of Brexit and just stick with negotiating tactics and strategy, staying put and being uncooperative works best because you lock in your current benefits. Voiding your benefits and then refusing to negotiate them back in again is stupid. The problem is the government is more concerned to haggle with Leavers than the EU.
Yes, but if the alternative is the extinguishing of independent British democracy, the ability to meaningfully fire those who rule us, just about any alternative is better.
I am frankly aghast at the depth to which we have been entangled without ever having voted so to do ( I ignore witterings about ”it was known in 1973 Ted Heath told us” I was not even ten and nobody bothered asking me since. Anyway it’s as plain as a pikestaff we are now dealing with a different animal).
It could have been easy, but the EU are determined to play silly buggers pour desencourager les autres, so hard it might be. So be it. If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine. The alternative is a bureaucracy with democratic window dressing.
Even if you Remainers win this battle (which you won't) we will be back in the same position in a few years and next time it will be even worse.
You really are in complete denial. Do you think there will be any appetite to repeat this farce again while anyone who experienced it is still living?
This is precisely why we're going to have to leave, the bridges to Remaining are all burnt now.
There is no appetite either in this country or on the continent for us to stay in the EU anymore. We voted Out, the rest of the EU have accepted that and expect us to Leave.
It is only you in "complete denial" that expects the farce of our membership to continue after this.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
I wrote this piece last year, partly in jest, but one of my Leave supporting friends is convinced that it is going to come true in the hardest of hard Brexits.
The Brexiteers, Juncker’s fifth columnists?
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
Weird to see May offer a Brexit blank cheque. Surely there has to be a price beyond which Brexit is too expensive.
That's the stupid thing. The no deal that's better than a bad deal is staying in the EU. The other no deal is just shooting ourselves in the foot.
Staying in the EU is far and away the worst deal.
BATNA - the best alternative to negotiated agreement is a thing in negotiations. If we strip out the ideology of Brexit and just stick with negotiating tactics and strategy, staying put and being uncooperative works best because you lock in your current benefits. Voiding your benefits and then refusing to negotiate them back in again is stupid. The problem is the government is more concerned to haggle with Leavers than the EU.
What you fail to realise is that we will eventually have to leave the EU no matter what. 27 other countries are not going to put up with us stopping what they want and we are never going to accept their direction of travel. Even if you Remainers win this battle (which you won't) we will be back in the same position in a few years and next time it will be even worse.
You have had 40 years to sell the EU as a project to the British public and you have failed. If we do end up being forced to remain there is only one way public opinion is going to go. And there will be plenty of us making sure that is the case.
Look, I am not suggesting hardball is the way to do this kind of negotiation. It probably isn't. But if you are going hardball, you refuse to trigger Article 50 and you also refuse to agree budgets, throw spanners into works and generally piss everyone off until you get your way. Threatening not to negotiate after we have left just bemuses our partners. In that case we might as well pay the €60 billion and be done with it. Neither our government nor Leavers generally are serious about Brexit.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Canadians are a fine people, they were there with us on D-Day.
They are near perfect, they'd be perfect if they crushed their Francophile citizens.
You will have to get used to every sign being in French as well as English - even outside the Francophone areas. Even in the middle of the Rockies all the road signs were bilingual.
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Yes, but if the alternative is the extinguishing of independent British democracy, the ability to meaningfully fire those who rule us, just about any alternative is better.
I am frankly aghast at the depth to which we have been entangled without ever having voted so to do ( I ignore witterings about ”it was known in 1973 Ted Heath told us” I was not even ten and nobody bothered asking me since. Anyway it’s as plain as a pikestaff we are now dealing with a different animal).
It could have been easy, but the EU are determined to play silly buggers pour desencourager les autres, so hard it might be. So be it. If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine. The alternative is a bureaucracy with democratic window dressing.
I am about 70% confident that we will end up as a Norway style client of the EU, where we keep part of our benefits, pay for them as now, are bound by the rules, but no longer have the influence we had as participating members. It might be billed as a temporary arrangement, but it won't be. It isn't a good arrangement, but it is the probable one, on the assumption that the absence of a settlement would drive a push to get something sorted. Any such arrangement will be on the EU's terms and if the choice is Norway or full membership and slinking back to full membership would be embarrassing.
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
You can elect MEPs with the power to sack her and veto any deals she negotiates, and a national government which defines her negotiating mandates. At least parliament has a mandated role in trade deals, which the UK government wants to deny us post-Brexit.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.
With ever closer union I don't see any democratic process having the power and support to provide the widely different people's disparate needs.
The greater the harmonising movement the more autocratic the government. Every motion has one that is equal and opposite.
I'm reading Varoufakis's 2016 book on the EU. He doesn't think we're heading for a US of E, more for a bust-up as it lacks the democracy of the US of A. He recommends we stay in to help improve it ... thinks France and Germany have retained far too much power which was a flaw in the original CSC/EEC setup.
I am about 70% confident that we will end up as a Norway style client of the EU, where we keep part of our benefits, pay for them as now, are bound by the rules, but no longer have the influence we had as participating members.
Has your confidence level for that outcome gone up or down and what do the remaining 30% possibilities look like?
Comments
Not that surprising when one considers it. Vancouver is the only city in Canada one could survive outside. It is warmer than London year round. This draws in the homeless nationwide.
Secondly, it attracts naive kids from tiny, very remote communities looking for employment and adventure. With prohibitive housing costs, it is easy to see how it can go wrong.
The Brexiteers, Juncker’s fifth columnists?
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-brexiteers-junckers-fifth-columnists/
Or just trying to Klingon
For me the question in that scenario is what other collateral damage comes from the violent swing of the pendulum. What else is discredited along with Brexit? The expenses scandal had far reaching effects in terms of loss of confidence in democracy, not just in that particuar intake of politicians, and I think that is still being felt to this day.
"Brexit hasn't worked! Stuff the Tories - it's time for full on socialism!" may very well end up being the case.
Theresa: Permission to speak freely, sir?
TSE: Granted.
Theresa: I do not believe this was a fair test of my Prime Ministerial abilities.
TSE: And why not?
Theresa: Because... there was no way to win.
TSE: A no-win situation is a possibility every PM may face. Has that never occurred to you?
Theresa: No, sir, it has not.
TSE: And how we deal with Brexit is at least as important as how we deal with life, wouldn't you say?
Theresa: As I indicated, Admiral, that thought had not occurred to me.
TSE: Well, now you have something new to think about. Carry on.
Bones: Logic? My god, the man's talking about logic! We're talking about universal armageddon! You green-blooded, inhuman...!
She wouldn’t have treated our EU citizens so callously.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/11/may-says-departments-will-be-told-how-brexit-250m-can-be-spent
She would have surely used Beam me Cough up Cough Scotty last week
Or maybe thats where the backdrop went
This is before we even get to her basic inability to organise a piss up in a brewery and her total lack of anything apparently approaching human emotion.
If she focused on "sovereignty" the immigrationists would bring her down
Brexit is a disaster. May can't fix that. Nobody could
What's amazing, though, is that we're only about 40% of the way through the benefits of the move towards more efficient domestic appliances, better insulation, and LED lighting. And there's another wave coming as people swap out old air conditioners (in commercial and industrial) for modern ones.
60% of those transitioned to UC in rent arrears
Great for Tories on BBC 6 O Clock news
Its fookin catching
Of course most on UC are in work
La poll tax de nos jours
Salmonella Free Eggs are now available
Well done TM
Perhaps this would be a good time for a Runny Egg and Soldiers snap GE
Not a BR EGGS IT in site
I could really do with Jeremy Corbyn not being next Prime Minister as well.
Still think Amber Rudd's majority is going to stop her becoming PM/Leader.
Edit - Also make lots on Sir Micky F.
65% of Labour voters went Remain. The Lib Dems only got 68% of their voters to go Remain. To be 3% behind the party most wedded to the EU on getting your voters out for Remain was a massive achievement. Many of those who ended up going for Leave will have been those who voted Labour in the 2015 general election, but UKIP in 2014 when they topped the European Parliament election.
The big movement was in Tory voters and members.
From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/politics-blog/11674871/Only-15-per-cent-of-Conservative-party-members-would-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html
To having 60%+ of Tory voters go for Leave, and probably a majority of members.
Cameron dropped the ball, not Corbyn.
You have had 40 years to sell the EU as a project to the British public and you have failed. If we do end up being forced to remain there is only one way public opinion is going to go. And there will be plenty of us making sure that is the case.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2017/09/08/11-of-the-country-are-prepared-for-the-zombie-apocalypse/
The EU will be begging us to leave.
I am frankly aghast at the depth to which we have been entangled without ever having voted so to do ( I ignore witterings about ”it was known in 1973 Ted Heath told us” I was not even ten and nobody bothered asking me since. Anyway it’s as plain as a pikestaff we are now dealing with a different animal).
It could have been easy, but the EU are determined to play silly buggers pour desencourager les autres, so hard it might be. So be it. If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine. The alternative is a bureaucracy with democratic window dressing.
No longer will you lose all your benefits from a few extra hours a week work
Osborne should have given it more funding to avoid the initial teething problems but the principle remains sound
There is no appetite either in this country or on the continent for us to stay in the EU anymore. We voted Out, the rest of the EU have accepted that and expect us to Leave.
It is only you in "complete denial" that expects the farce of our membership to continue after this.
The greater the harmonising movement the more autocratic the government. Every motion has one that is equal and opposite.
You can't pass laws in the UK parliament that binds the EU to a certain position, and expect an agreement.
But they know that.
Of course we have to be able to take everything off the table if the EU continue to negotiate in bad faith.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.