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  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    One drink is too many, and a thousand are never enough.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    edited October 2017
    On topic, looks like the Brexit bill is being held up

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/918580733375066114
  • Anna said:

    surbiton said:

    Anna:

    If you want to end up in a WTO tribunal and then lose, of course, you can. The basic WTO rule is that you cannot discriminate between countries unless you have a Trade agreement. Therefore, the Irish Republic and, say, Belgium or any other EU country has to be treated in the same way - FTA or no FTA.

    I would be treating every country the same way though - if you bring your goods in by land follow set of rules X, if by air or by sea follow set of rules Y.
    Doesn't work as a fudge. The EU acts as a single entity in the WTO so does not just share a land border with the UK.

    If the EU did that then they would need to treat goods from the UK the same as goods from Turkey, Russia etc.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Emma Thompson is now claiming that she suffered similar abuse to that alleged against Weinstein from “many other” men in the film industry. Is she going to name them, one wonders?

    As you might expect, popbitch this week is indispensable reading on this subject:

    https://twitter.com/popbitch/status/918559118557933573

    I found much of this shocking.
    Pobitch not a publication I’d ever heard of TBH. I shall read later.

    Mind you, the Bar when I was a young lawyer had plenty of practitioners who thought female pupils were for the taking. Oily gits. Still, for many of them it was probably the only way they’d have got any sex at all.
    That last sentence made me feel a bit queasy tbh; doesn't sound like much of a silver lining for that particular cloud :disappointed:
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Emma Thompson is now claiming that she suffered similar abuse to that alleged against Weinstein from “many other” men in the film industry. Is she going to name them, one wonders?

    There's a film where she's doing it to Stephen Fry, in character, from the early 90s I think.

    "Peter's Friends"?

    But, it was a comedy. Apparently.
    It’s all very well coming out now about Weinstein and expressing solidarity with victims and all the rest of it. But if others have behaved equally badly why doesn’t she and all the others have the balls to name names?

    That would do more to help than all this wailing about their suffering. Point fingers and say what happened, who dit it and why they didn’t speak up. Otherwise it’s a lot of emoting and scapegoating one man for the ills of an industry and absolutely nothing will be different in future.
    As I said on here the other night, at my wife's law firm, her managing partner is exhibiting some of these behaviours right now.

    He gets very drunk, sleazy and brags about all the women he's shagged. And sometimes names names.

    Everyone either ignores him, or giggles at it, or they act nervously at the time, but shocked about it later, whilst they whisper and share their best stories and anecdotes with one other.
  • Danny565 said:

    Stephen Bush‏Verified account @stephenkb 2h2 hours ago
    More
    More chance of "more money, ECJ supreme, no FOM" than "magic customs union with no border anywhere on or around island of Ireland" & yet...

    Well, it's an idea, I suppose. Has he attempted to quantify how much more money would be required for our EU friends to abandon one of their sacred principles? Should DD look to Decline and Fall for an indication that an extra 33% should do it?

    'Blasphemy it would be to play the songs of Sion while the lady at a cigarette smokes whatever. Men of Harlech is good music look you.'

    'This is most unfortunate. I can hardly ask Mrs Beste-Chetwynde to stop smoking. Frankly I regard this as impertinence.'

    'But no man can you ask against his Maker to blaspheme whatever unless him to pay more you were. Three pounds for the music is good and one for blasphemy look you.'

    Dr Fagan gave him another pound. The stationmaster retired, and in a few minutes the silver band began a singularly emotional rendering of In Thy courts no more are needed Sun by day and Moon by night.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @SamCoatesTimes: Empire 2.0 sails back into view with a vengeance https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/918578270471274496
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited October 2017
    [snip]
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Evening to one and all.

    I am, possibly, being a bit thick here but why can’t we stay in the Single Market, Customs Union with FoM and reduce non-EU immigration?

    If what people care about is reducing immigration and having control over it, why not take steps to reduce that over which we indisputably do have control? And parts of which, frankly, create more problems for the country than allowing all of Spain’s nurses to move here.

    Sure - we lose the ability to have our own trade deals but in the real world (a) how important is that to voters and (b) we will be the weaker party so that freedom is probably more apparent than real.

    Sure - we will still face ECJ jurisdiction but any agreement we have with anyone is going to need some final court of adjudication. The ECJ is not notably so much worse than any other possible court.

    I simply do not understand why the government does not put forward a proposal that would go some way to reconciling those who voted Remain, would put our relations with the EU on a better footing (they are not going to go away, after all) and would not cause unnecessary and potentially very serious economic disruption.

    It would also have the benefit of giving us time to think about what our European strategy should be over the long-term and does not burn our bridges with the EU should changes happen within it that might make us want to reconsider.

    Well, I do - the government has painted itself into a corner and is scared of the hard Brexiteers. But surely there are the votes in the Commons for such an outcome?

    Or am I being thick / naive / a dreamer / insanely optimistic?

    If immigration is the issue this makes perfect sense. However, if sovereignty is the issue it doesn't. This is why we have hard-core Brexiteers explaining that when all the Eastern European nurses return home to Poland after Brexit, we can make up the shortfall by inviting our friends from the Indian Subcontinent to fill the vacancies.
    Freedom of movement is racist against citizens of non-EU nations.


    You’ve said this before. And, sorry, don’t mean to be rude but it’s absolute bollocks.
    I think Sunil might be reacting against the meme spread about before the vote that not all racists were Leavers, but everyone who was a racist voted Leave.

    Which was also bollocks.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    edited October 2017

    On topic, looks like the Brexit bill is being held up

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/918580733375066114

    Isn't it the Tory Remainers that the Torygraph is accusing?

    Edit, your edit beat me to it!
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Scott_P - have a look at this - http://navaltoday.com/2017/10/03/indonesian-navy-receives-new-sail-training-ship/ . We ought to make good things again.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Anna said:

    Am I the only one that doesn't get why does the Irish border need to be a problem? Deal or no deal, there is nothing to force the UK to put up any hard infrastructure, is there? The Irish government, I believe, also opposes a hard border? Any posts that did go up would likely to get vandalised in short order, so what would be the point?

    On customs, one viable solution is to just not even try to collect customs for goods landed in NI. Unless your end customer is in Northern Ireland.

    Against WTO rules apparently.
    WTO just says you have to have the same rules, not how you enforce them in any particular location
    I suspect, and I could be wrong, that a deliberate policy of not enforcing tariffs on goods from a certain country would allow other countries to bring a case at the WTO that they were being discriminated against relative to Ireland.

    The other issue, of course, is that a deliberate policy of non-enforcement would create some (errr) interesting cross border businesses.
    We rely on individuals arriving at airports to self-sort into nothing to declare and the red channel. How about an honour system for goods crossing the Irish border? ;)
    That is, after all, how it works between the EU and Switzerland, Norway, etc.

    The "problem" with the Irish border question is not, to my mind, about trade. It is about whether it acceptable to have a border over which one can cross without a passport or any other documentation. From a technical perspective, it is of course, possible. The Common Travel Area includes countries in and out of the EU, just as Schengen includes some EU countries, and some non-EU ones, and even countries that are not in the EEA.

    But is it politically acceptable in the UK to have an open border?

    My view is that it's fine. Others may have a different opinion.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2017

    Danny565 said:

    Stephen Bush‏Verified account @stephenkb 2h2 hours ago
    More
    More chance of "more money, ECJ supreme, no FOM" than "magic customs union with no border anywhere on or around island of Ireland" & yet...

    Well, it's an idea, I suppose. Has he attempted to quantify how much more money would be required for our EU friends to abandon one of their sacred principles? Should DD look to Decline and Fall for an indication that an extra 33% should do it?
    You and others keep saying this, but no border with Ireland after Brexit would also mean the EU abandoning one of their sacred principles, yet the whole of the government's negotiating strategy hinges on the idea the EU will give way on that one. You can't simultaneously criticise Stephen Bush's idea for supposedly being fantasy, yet also say the government's strategy is feasible and realistic, when both rely on the EU ripping up their "rules" in some way.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Empire 2.0 sails back into view with a vengeance https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/918578270471274496

    FFS!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Evening to one and all.

    I am, possibly, being a bit thick here but why can’t we stay in the Single Market, Customs Union with FoM and reduce non-EU immigration?

    If what people care about is reducing immigration and having control over it, why not take steps to reduce that over which we indisputably do have control? And parts of which, frankly, create more problems for the country than allowing all of Spain’s nurses to move here.

    Sure - we lose the ability to have our own trade deals but in the real world (a) how important is that to voters and (b) we will be the weaker party so that freedom is probably more apparent than real.

    Sure - we will still face ECJ jurisdiction but any agreement we have with anyone is going to need some final court of adjudication. The ECJ is not notably so much worse than any other possible court.

    I simply do not understand why the government does not put forward a proposal that would go some way to reconciling those who voted Remain, would put our relations with the EU on a better footing (they are not going to go away, after all) and would not cause unnecessary and potentially very serious economic disruption.

    It would also have the benefit of giving us time to think about what our European strategy should be over the long-term and does not burn our bridges with the EU should changes happen within it that might make us want to reconsider.

    Well, I do - the government has painted itself into a corner and is scared of the hard Brexiteers. But surely there are the votes in the Commons for such an outcome?

    Or am I being thick / naive / a dreamer / insanely optimistic?

    If immigration is the issue this makes perfect sense. However, if sovereignty is the issue it doesn't. This is why we have hard-core Brexiteers explaining that when all the Eastern European nurses return home to Poland after Brexit, we can make up the shortfall by inviting our friends from the Indian Subcontinent to fill the vacancies.
    Freedom of movement is racist against citizens of non-EU nations.


    You’ve said this before. And, sorry, don’t mean to be rude but it’s absolute bollocks.
    How is it not discriminatory to tell a skilled worker from another continent that they can't come while anyone unskilled or unemployed from our own continent can? It is by definition discrimination.
    All choice is by definition discrimination. That does not make it racism.

    There are good reasons why a country might choose to prioritise citizens from its close neighbours over those from far away countries.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    I've never understood why much smaller countries like Canada and Australia can make these decisions, and we can't.

    @Casino


    Jesus mate that is such small picture stuff in the great scheme of things. You are talking hundreds of people....and don't forget the EU suffers a shed load of our British villains who deal in drugs, money laundering and whatnot that they cannot deport...

    It is like saying I don't like Man City because they play in blue....

    But if you are anal, you are anal I guess....
  • tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Emma Thompson is now claiming that she suffered similar abuse to that alleged against Weinstein from “many other” men in the film industry. Is she going to name them, one wonders?

    There's a film where she's doing it to Stephen Fry, in character, from the early 90s I think.

    "Peter's Friends"?

    But, it was a comedy. Apparently.
    It’s all very well coming out now about Weinstein and expressing solidarity with victims and all the rest of it. But if others have behaved equally badly why doesn’t she and all the others have the balls to name names?

    That would do more to help than all this wailing about their suffering. Point fingers and say what happened, who dit it and why they didn’t speak up. Otherwise it’s a lot of emoting and scapegoating one man for the ills of an industry and absolutely nothing will be different in future.
    Piers was scathing about Meryl Streep along these lines (her leaping to her feet to applaud Roman Polanski's Oscar for The Pianist).

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4969866/PIERS-MORGAN-Hollywood-s-hypocritical-horror-Harvey.html
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
    You could import cheaper food by being outside the customs union.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Evening to one and all.

    I am, possibly, being a bit thick here but why can’t we stay in the Single Market, Customs Union with FoM and reduce non-EU immigration?

    If what people care about is reducing immigration and having control over it, why not take steps to reduce that over which we indisputably do have control? And parts of which, frankly, create more problems for the country than allowing all of Spain’s nurses to move here.

    Sure - we lose the ability to have our own trade deals but in the real world (a) how important is that to voters and (b) we will be the weaker party so that freedom is probably more apparent than real.

    Sure - we will still face ECJ jurisdiction but any agreement we have with anyone is going to need some final court of adjudication. The ECJ is not notably so much worse than any other possible court.

    I simply do not understand why the government does not put forward a proposal that would go some way to reconciling those who voted Remain, would put our relations with the EU on a better footing (they are not going to go away, after all) and would not cause unnecessary and potentially very serious economic disruption.

    It would also have the benefit of giving us time to think about what our European strategy should be over the long-term and does not burn our bridges with the EU should changes happen within it that might make us want to reconsider.

    Well, I do - the government has painted itself into a corner and is scared of the hard Brexiteers. But surely there are the votes in the Commons for such an outcome?

    Or am I being thick / naive / a dreamer / insanely optimistic?

    If immigration is the issue this makes perfect sense. However, if sovereignty is the issue it doesn't. This is why we have hard-core Brexiteers explaining that when all the Eastern European nurses return home to Poland after Brexit, we can make up the shortfall by inviting our friends from the Indian Subcontinent to fill the vacancies.
    Freedom of movement is racist against citizens of non-EU nations.


    You’ve said this before. And, sorry, don’t mean to be rude but it’s absolute bollocks.
    Do Indians have freedom of movement? Chinese? Those two nations are like one-third of all humanity.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,780
    PAW said:

    rcs1000 - Less than 100 EU students have repaid their student loans - I have read here.

    Ummm: do you mean fully repaid them? If so, why would that surprise you?

    What proportion of Brits have fully repaid them after five years? 1%? 0.1%? 0.01%?

    But, yes, enforcement is a problem. But not - one would have thought - an insurmountable one.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Stephen Bush‏Verified account @stephenkb 2h2 hours ago
    More
    More chance of "more money, ECJ supreme, no FOM" than "magic customs union with no border anywhere on or around island of Ireland" & yet...

    Well, it's an idea, I suppose. Has he attempted to quantify how much more money would be required for our EU friends to abandon one of their sacred principles? Should DD look to Decline and Fall for an indication that an extra 33% should do it?
    You and others keep saying this, but no border with Ireland after Brexit would also mean the EU abandoning one of their sacred principles, yet the whole of the government's negotiating strategy hinges on the idea the EU will give way on that one. You can't simultaneously criticise Stephen Bush's idea for supposedly being fantasy, yet also say the government's strategy is feasible and realistic, when both rely on the EU ripping up their "rules" in some way.
    You don't need them to abandon their principles for that, an FTA would cover it.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    You’ve said this before. And, sorry, don’t mean to be rude but it’s absolute bollocks.

    How is it not discriminatory to tell a skilled worker from another continent that they can't come while anyone unskilled or unemployed from our own continent can? It is by definition discrimination.
    All choice is by definition discrimination. That does not make it racism.

    There are good reasons why a country might choose to prioritise citizens from its close neighbours over those from far away countries.
    Define close neighbours.

    I fail to see how Bulgaria is a closer neighbour culturally than America, Australia, Canada or New Zealand.
    I fail to see how it is geographically a closer neighbour than Serbia.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    OchEye said:

    One thing I am beginning to get a little worried about, is that over the past few days I've become increasingly aware on social media and on phone ins on the radio, an increasing number of people starting to talk about ditching the monarchy. OK, there's always one or two going off on a wee rant, and everyone tut tuts or has a giggle at them, but not now. There seems to be a mood change, and our political class are missing it.

    Nothing will happen while HMQ is alive.

    But King Charles and Queen Camilla could bring the whole show down...
  • PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    edited October 2017
    tyson said:


    I've never understood why much smaller countries like Canada and Australia can make these decisions, and we can't.


    @Casino


    Jesus mate that is such small picture stuff in the great scheme of things. You are talking hundreds of people....and don't forget the EU suffers a shed load of our British villains who deal in drugs, money laundering and whatnot that they cannot deport...

    It is like saying I don't like Man City because they play in blue....

    But if you are anal, you are anal I guess....
    Err... ok. I'm anal.

    Good wine tonight?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
  • I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Fun night of Remain and Leave bitterness, recrimination and anger on here again I see... ;)

    And @Tyson I hope you didn't make too much of a nuisance of yourself while that poor bloke was trying to have a quiet drink in the pub...
  • GIN1138 said:

    OchEye said:

    One thing I am beginning to get a little worried about, is that over the past few days I've become increasingly aware on social media and on phone ins on the radio, an increasing number of people starting to talk about ditching the monarchy. OK, there's always one or two going off on a wee rant, and everyone tut tuts or has a giggle at them, but not now. There seems to be a mood change, and our political class are missing it.

    Nothing will happen while HMQ is alive.

    But King Charles and Queen Camilla could bring the whole show down...
    Good. About time too.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Danny565 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    " Brexit elite " is a terrific phrase. We see it on here hour after hour, day after day, week after week. The tiny number of right wing, globalising, deregulating, Atlanticists who've driven Brexit for 25 years. They care as much about the views of most Leave voters as I do. The proles have served their purpose in June 2016 and Brexit can now be safely refined in terms of their own obsessions. If that leaves most Leave voters worse off and not a penny extra for the NHS it's a price worth paying. When even a fiscally dry and socially conservative figure like Phillip Hammond is portrayed as a eurofederalist you know how extreme the people you are dealing with really are.

    It may be a terrific phrase but it's bollocks. Do you want to name a couple of these people so we can see what you are on about, or are they Dr Evil sort of types who live in secret hideaways under tropical islands, out of the public gaze?
    Daniel Hannan.

    Daniel Hannan? If I had wanted a neoliberal version of the Cheshire Cat if I would have bloody asked for one.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    I knew that was coming at me.....I think the EU and Parliament live quite well together...This Brexit person couldn't name one policy area that could improve my life if we left the EU. Not one.

    But my life and that of the people I care for has taken a taken a remarkable downturn for the worse as a direct consequence of Brexit. I can hear the claps from the Brexit ideological fuckwits on this site...but at the end of the day you lot too are only going to get poorer, and the lives of the people that you care for will get worse. Brexit is sending an icy wind across Oxford and the prosperous, income generating parts of the country. It's going to catch you up.


  • I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    "Only The Sith REMOANERs deal in absolutes. I will do what I must!"
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2017

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    MTimT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Emma Thompson is now claiming that she suffered similar abuse to that alleged against Weinstein from “many other” men in the film industry. Is she going to name them, one wonders?

    There's a film where she's doing it to Stephen Fry, in character, from the early 90s I think.

    "Peter's Friends"?

    But, it was a comedy. Apparently.
    It’s all very well coming out now about Weinstein and expressing solidarity with victims and all the rest of it. But if others have behaved equally badly why doesn’t she and all the others have the balls to name names?

    That would do more to help than all this wailing about their suffering. Point fingers and say what happened, who dit it and why they didn’t speak up. Otherwise it’s a lot of emoting and scapegoating one man for the ills of an industry and absolutely nothing will be different in future.
    Piers was scathing about Meryl Streep along these lines (her leaping to her feet to applaud Roman Polanski's Oscar for The Pianist).

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4969866/PIERS-MORGAN-Hollywood-s-hypocritical-horror-Harvey.html
    I find it extraordinary that anyone should leap to the defence of a man who anally raped a 13 year old girl, but that's Hollywood for you.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Your avatar does lend credibility to the meme!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
    It depends by what currency you judge your politics.

    For some, the amount of cash in the bank and pragmatics of day-to-day living is all that really matters. For others, having the right to vote to change laws and regulations, and reverse them, is what makes them feel free and empowered.

    Neither is foolish.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited October 2017

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Emma Thompson is now claiming that she suffered similar abuse to that alleged against Weinstein from “many other” men in the film industry. Is she going to name them, one wonders?

    As you might expect, popbitch this week is indispensable reading on this subject:

    https://twitter.com/popbitch/status/918559118557933573

    I found much of this shocking.

    What a charming industry the entertainment industry is...Inches for Column Inches etc etc etc.

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?

    Why not invoke Henry VIII powers and do away with Parliament??? .... oh wait.... err....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    rcs1000 said:

    MTimT said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Anna said:

    Am I the only one that doesn't get why does the Irish border need to be a problem? Deal or no deal, there is nothing to force the UK to put up any hard infrastructure, is there? The Irish government, I believe, also opposes a hard border? Any posts that did go up would likely to get vandalised in short order, so what would be the point?

    On customs, one viable solution is to just not even try to collect customs for goods landed in NI. Unless your end customer is in Northern Ireland.

    Against WTO rules apparently.
    WTO just says you have to have the same rules, not how you enforce them in any particular location
    I suspect, and I could be wrong, that a deliberate policy of not enforcing tariffs on goods from a certain country would allow other countries to bring a case at the WTO that they were being discriminated against relative to Ireland.

    The other issue, of course, is that a deliberate policy of non-enforcement would create some (errr) interesting cross border businesses.
    We rely on individuals arriving at airports to self-sort into nothing to declare and the red channel. How about an honour system for goods crossing the Irish border? ;)
    That is, after all, how it works between the EU and Switzerland, Norway, etc.

    The "problem" with the Irish border question is not, to my mind, about trade. It is about whether it acceptable to have a border over which one can cross without a passport or any other documentation. From a technical perspective, it is of course, possible. The Common Travel Area includes countries in and out of the EU, just as Schengen includes some EU countries, and some non-EU ones, and even countries that are not in the EEA.

    But is it politically acceptable in the UK to have an open border?

    My view is that it's fine. Others may have a different opinion.
    Ireland is not part of the continental European landmass. It's an island off the coast of the UK (on the wrong side) and over 300 miles away, at its nearest point, and all entrances to it have to go through a port or airport, and from there to the UK other than NI have to also proceed through a port or airport.

    I can't say an open (electronically policed) border is something I'm massively worried about.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited October 2017

    I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    Someone needs to do a 'Kinnock speech' aimed at the Eurosceptics.

    “..and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Conservative MP – a Conservative MP - demanding that his own Chancellor fiddle the forecasts to hide from economic reality."
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact your avatar is an Irish flag, and you keep talking about having made arrangements to move, despite living near Greater Manchester?
  • AnnaAnna Posts: 59
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rpjs said:

    Anna said:

    Am I the only one that doesn't get why does the Irish border need to be a problem? Deal or no deal, there is nothing to force the UK to put up any hard infrastructure, is there? The Irish government, I believe, also opposes a hard border? Any posts that did go up would likely to get vandalised in short order, so what would be the point?

    On customs, one viable solution is to just not even try to collect customs for goods landed in NI. Unless your end customer is in Northern Ireland.

    Against WTO rules apparently.
    WTO just says you have to have the same rules, not how you enforce them in any particular location
    I suspect, and I could be wrong, that a deliberate policy of not enforcing tariffs on goods from a certain country would allow other countries to bring a case at the WTO that they were being discriminated against relative to Ireland.

    The other issue, of course, is that a deliberate policy of non-enforcement would create some (errr) interesting cross border businesses.
    Option A of non-enforcement wouldn't just apply to Irish goods though it would be any goods routed across the land border. If that's considered discriminatory then - heck- say any goods landed at a NI port or NI airport are treated the same as goods coming across the land. There's still a bottleneck issue in moving goods from NI to rest of UK if the route is used for tax avoidance. The government can manage the issue by keeping NI ports the same size they are today.

    Option B of enforcement by a different process than a hard border also doesn't discriminate - the enforcement might be more effective or less effective than the process at ports and airports, depending on the size of the fines applied.

    As for "interesting" cross border businesses - big deal - we already give regions tax breaks to encourage jobs and investment with Enterprise Zones, with any luck NI would get a similar effect via different tax breaks.

    I know neither option is optimal compared to an FTA with Ireland, but both can work even without a deal from the EU. And even if smuggling/tax evasion did turn out to be a major social or economic problem - the government in Westminster or Stormont could decide at a later date to change things. It's not urgent to find the long term solution immediately when there are viable solutions sustainable in the short-medium term.
  • rcs1000 said:

    That is, after all, how it works between the EU and Switzerland, Norway, etc.

    The "problem" with the Irish border question is not, to my mind, about trade. It is about whether it acceptable to have a border over which one can cross without a passport or any other documentation. From a technical perspective, it is of course, possible. The Common Travel Area includes countries in and out of the EU, just as Schengen includes some EU countries, and some non-EU ones, and even countries that are not in the EEA.

    But is it politically acceptable in the UK to have an open border?

    My view is that it's fine. Others may have a different opinion.

    Yes if course it's OK. It's OK now, what changes? It's not as though we're going to be demanding visas for EU citizens coming here. Anyone who wants to come here, on an EU passport, can simply fily to Luton or Gatwick, or get the ferry to Dover, or get the Eurostar.

    For non-EN citizens, it's identical to the current position. As it happens, and not entirely by coincidence, the visa requirements for entering Eire are the same as our visa requirements.

    So it's entirely about trade (see my next post, which will be in response to @Danny565's point). Under no circumstances will it be necessary to check passports any more than we do now.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.

    My poor Breixt pub contact tonight bemoaned the lack of congeniality from the EU towards our democratic vote.

    How the hell could the EU give us a good deal when some, if not all EU countries, are facing populist movements? How could that work?

    The UK has to lose out as a result of the populist Brexit vote. Of course we could strike deals outside and become a global power again. There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I also note that @Beverley_C has appointed herself PB Empress of Womens’ Shoes.

    Hmm.....

    Just as well I was not on earlier as I might have had something to say about that. My shoe collection, my love of and desire for shoes ..... well, it’s incomprehensible to all the men I know.

    Still, as my Italian Mama rightly said: “One can never have too many shoes or handbags or gloves.”

    In our flat, the spare room is crammed full with pairs of my wife's shoes and handbags. I don't complain though, for fear of objections to the quantity of books that fill every other available recess in the flat.
    I am guilty on the books front as well, I’m afraid.

    Every time I ask my builder to build me more shelves he asks me why I don’t get rid of my books. Then he looks at me. Then he starts measuring up.
    My other half is threatening to introduce a "one in, one out" rule for books. We're contemplating a move and one of the bones of contention is that I want a study. Since I have a very big study in Hungary, that is apparently excessive.
    That is grounds for divorce.

    I was fortunate to grow up in a bookshop owned by my Mum. At the last count I have something over 20,000 books in my house, a situation helped by the fact my wife was also an avid reader/collector so the combined collection required a dedicated library when we moved in together.
    Is your favourite novel 'Books do Furnish a Room' ?
    :smile:

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
    Well, William Hague did get on rather well with her.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2017

    tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
    It depends by what currency you judge your politics.

    For some, the amount of cash in the bank and pragmatics of day-to-day living is all that really matters. For others, having the right to vote to change laws and regulations, and reverse them, is what makes them feel free and empowered.

    Neither is foolish.
    How do you like your passport cooked? I hope feeling empowered will keep you warm at night. Etc etc....

    It seems to me that post-EU, the situation for many people will be worse than they are under the current system. The current system is not a nightmare. There are no jackboots kicking in my door. There is a framework of laws guaranteeing my security and rights and making it easy for me to contribute to the common good. The system is not perfect, nonetheless it works.

    To ask that it all be thrown away for an abstraction is not rational.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2017
    RobD said:

    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Stephen Bush‏Verified account @stephenkb 2h2 hours ago
    More
    More chance of "more money, ECJ supreme, no FOM" than "magic customs union with no border anywhere on or around island of Ireland" & yet...

    Well, it's an idea, I suppose. Has he attempted to quantify how much more money would be required for our EU friends to abandon one of their sacred principles? Should DD look to Decline and Fall for an indication that an extra 33% should do it?
    You and others keep saying this, but no border with Ireland after Brexit would also mean the EU abandoning one of their sacred principles, yet the whole of the government's negotiating strategy hinges on the idea the EU will give way on that one. You can't simultaneously criticise Stephen Bush's idea for supposedly being fantasy, yet also say the government's strategy is feasible and realistic, when both rely on the EU ripping up their "rules" in some way.
    You don't need them to abandon their principles for that, an FTA would cover it.
    Maybe - but, for now, the EU are saying that no border with a country outside the Single Market & Customs Union is impossible, just as they say Single Market membership without freedom of movement is impossible. You can't simultaneously rule out one as "fantasy" yet also say the other is a good negotiating position, when the EU's starting position on both is identical.

    We'll never know if the EU would've agreed to Single Market minus FoM in the heat of a negotiation, because a handful of Tory politicians decided amongst themselves that it would be unacceptable even if it was available, because they personally were obsessed with striking new trade deals and leaving the ECJ - even though there's no evidence that Leave voters themselves shared those obsessions.
  • I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    Someone needs to do a 'Kinnock speech' aimed at the Eurosceptics.

    “..and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Conservative MP – a Conservative MP - demanding that his own Chancellor fiddle the forecasts to hide from economic reality."
    On the train this evening I did think of doing a thread along those lines.

    I'm thinking of Brexit doing to the Tory party what The First World War did to the Liberals.

    Short version, it made the party do things it had been historically opposed to, which saw them lose power forever.
  • tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
    It depends by what currency you judge your politics.

    For some, the amount of cash in the bank and pragmatics of day-to-day living is all that really matters. For others, having the right to vote to change laws and regulations, and reverse them, is what makes them feel free and empowered.

    Neither is foolish.
    Indeed. Qatar has a GDP per capita of almost 3 times that of the UK but I sure as hell wouldn't want to live under their particular brand of Government.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.



    It won a referendum... ;)
  • tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    I knew that was coming at me.....I think the EU and Parliament live quite well together...This Brexit person couldn't name one policy area that could improve my life if we left the EU. Not one.

    But my life and that of the people I care for has taken a taken a remarkable downturn for the worse as a direct consequence of Brexit. I can hear the claps from the Brexit ideological fuckwits on this site...but at the end of the day you lot too are only going to get poorer, and the lives of the people that you care for will get worse. Brexit is sending an icy wind across Oxford and the prosperous, income generating parts of the country. It's going to catch you up.


    As someone said earlier. Yawn.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Emma Thompson is now claiming that she suffered similar abuse to that alleged against Weinstein from “many other” men in the film industry. Is she going to name them, one wonders?

    As you might expect, popbitch this week is indispensable reading on this subject:

    https://twitter.com/popbitch/status/918559118557933573

    I found much of this shocking.

    What a charming industry the entertainment industry is...Inches for Column Inches etc etc etc.

    There is worse. The fashion industry.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I also note that @Beverley_C has appointed herself PB Empress of Womens’ Shoes.

    Hmm.....

    Just as well I was not on earlier as I might have had something to say about that. My shoe collection, my love of and desire for shoes ..... well, it’s incomprehensible to all the men I know.

    Still, as my Italian Mama rightly said: “One can never have too many shoes or handbags or gloves.”

    In our flat, the spare room is crammed full with pairs of my wife's shoes and handbags. I don't complain though, for fear of objections to the quantity of books that fill every other available recess in the flat.
    I am guilty on the books front as well, I’m afraid.

    Every time I ask my builder to build me more shelves he asks me why I don’t get rid of my books. Then he looks at me. Then he starts measuring up.
    My other half is threatening to introduce a "one in, one out" rule for books. We're contemplating a move and one of the bones of contention is that I want a study. Since I have a very big study in Hungary, that is apparently excessive.
    That is grounds for divorce.

    I was fortunate to grow up in a bookshop owned by my Mum. At the last count I have something over 20,000 books in my house, a situation helped by the fact my wife was also an avid reader/collector so the combined collection required a dedicated library when we moved in together.
    Is your favourite novel 'Books do Furnish a Room' ?
    :smile:

    Spent today in a stuffy Mayfair hotel basement room buying books from a Cheshire country house library that was formed between the seventeenth and twentieth centuries. The range was incredible: my favourite purchase was a folio of 1862 photographs by a leading Jewish preraphelite; second favourite an early English book binding with endpapers from an early John Webster work. Books are sooooo fun.
  • I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    I am hoping they get torn apart. Labour too.

    The Lib Dems are too insignificant to worry about.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    Sean_F said:

    MTimT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I see that Emma Thompson is now claiming that she suffered similar abuse to that alleged against Weinstein from “many other” men in the film industry. Is she going to name them, one wonders?

    There's a film where she's doing it to Stephen Fry, in character, from the early 90s I think.

    "Peter's Friends"?

    But, it was a comedy. Apparently.
    It’s all very well coming out now about Weinstein and expressing solidarity with victims and all the rest of it. But if others have behaved equally badly why doesn’t she and all the others have the balls to name names?

    That would do more to help than all this wailing about their suffering. Point fingers and say what happened, who dit it and why they didn’t speak up. Otherwise it’s a lot of emoting and scapegoating one man for the ills of an industry and absolutely nothing will be different in future.
    Piers was scathing about Meryl Streep along these lines (her leaping to her feet to applaud Roman Polanski's Oscar for The Pianist).

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4969866/PIERS-MORGAN-Hollywood-s-hypocritical-horror-Harvey.html
    I find it extraordinary that anyone should leap to the defence of a man who anally raped a 13 year old girl, but that's Hollywood for you.
    I find the stuff on Polanski worrying...the witness statements are horrifying.
    I think Polanski gathered sympathy because of the murder of his wife but he should never have been allowed to make a movie after his escape from justice. I would be happy to see him punished.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
    It depends by what currency you judge your politics.

    For some, the amount of cash in the bank and pragmatics of day-to-day living is all that really matters. For others, having the right to vote to change laws and regulations, and reverse them, is what makes them feel free and empowered.

    Neither is foolish.
    How do you like your passport cooked? I hope feeling empowered will keep you warm at night. Etc etc....

    It seems to me that post-EU, the situation for many people will be worse than they are under the current system. The current system is not a nightmare. There are no jackboots kicking in my door. There is a framework of laws guaranteeing my security and rights and making it easy for me to contribute to the common good. The system is not perfect, nonetheless it works.

    To ask that it all be thrown away for an abstraction is not rational.
    And the new system won't be a nightmare either. The British people aren't a bunch of thugs thirsting to bring about the Fourth Reich.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Empire 2.0 sails back into view with a vengeance https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/918578270471274496

    FFS!
    The government will be asking the military to where pith helmets next.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.

    My poor Breixt pub contact tonight bemoaned the lack of congeniality from the EU towards our democratic vote.

    How the hell could the EU give us a good deal when some, if not all EU countries, are facing populist movements? How could that work?

    The UK has to lose out as a result of the populist Brexit vote. Of course we could strike deals outside and become a global power again. There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
    TSE could arrange the latter.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,603

    I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    "Only The Sith REMOANERs deal in absolutes. I will do what I must!"
    With all due respect, WTF are you on about now? From being a relevant poster many years ago you have become this site's resident troll. You are eclipsed only by Ave it's pointless interjections (see below).
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    I am hoping they get torn apart. Labour too.

    The Lib Dems are too insignificant to worry about.
    The Lib Dems are significant in the Lords though - and they have to pass this too or defer. I can't see the LDs there backing down easily.
  • PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Why do you fly the flag of a country that restricts women's access to abortion?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact your avatar is an Irish flag, and you keep talking about having made arrangements to move, despite living near Greater Manchester?
    Your comment merely reflects the danger of assumptions.

    I have said repeatedly that I am NOT moving to Dublin
    I have said repeatedly that I have DUAL citizenship

    The tricolour merely reflects the fact that I lost my sense of national pride in being British and that is entirely down to Brexit.

    FYI - It has taken time to get things re-organised but I will have moved away from soggy, rainy old Manchester by Xmas.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    Someone needs to do a 'Kinnock speech' aimed at the Eurosceptics.

    “..and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Conservative MP – a Conservative MP - demanding that his own Chancellor fiddle the forecasts to hide from economic reality."
    On the train this evening I did think of doing a thread along those lines.

    I'm thinking of Brexit doing to the Tory party what The First World War did to the Liberals.

    Short version, it made the party do things it had been historically opposed to, which saw them lose power forever.
    Does it matter?

    If the Conservatives vanish, then right wing voters will support someone else.
  • Mortimer said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I also note that @Beverley_C has appointed herself PB Empress of Womens’ Shoes.

    Hmm.....

    Just as well I was not on earlier as I might have had something to say about that. My shoe collection, my love of and desire for shoes ..... well, it’s incomprehensible to all the men I know.

    Still, as my Italian Mama rightly said: “One can never have too many shoes or handbags or gloves.”

    In our flat, the spare room is crammed full with pairs of my wife's shoes and handbags. I don't complain though, for fear of objections to the quantity of books that fill every other available recess in the flat.
    I am guilty on the books front as well, I’m afraid.

    Every time I ask my builder to build me more shelves he asks me why I don’t get rid of my books. Then he looks at me. Then he starts measuring up.
    My other half is threatening to introduce a "one in, one out" rule for books. We're contemplating a move and one of the bones of contention is that I want a study. Since I have a very big study in Hungary, that is apparently excessive.
    That is grounds for divorce.

    I was fortunate to grow up in a bookshop owned by my Mum. At the last count I have something over 20,000 books in my house, a situation helped by the fact my wife was also an avid reader/collector so the combined collection required a dedicated library when we moved in together.
    Is your favourite novel 'Books do Furnish a Room' ?
    :smile:

    Spent today in a stuffy Mayfair hotel basement room buying books from a Cheshire country house library that was formed between the seventeenth and twentieth centuries. The range was incredible: my favourite purchase was a folio of 1862 photographs by a leading Jewish preraphelite; second favourite an early English book binding with endpapers from an early John Webster work. Books are sooooo fun.
    I forgot you were a dealer.

    I was very fortunate a few years ago that a friend of mine who is a book dealer was at the auction of some of the house clearance of Barbara Hastings Parker, second wife of the Archaeologist Max Mallowan whose first wife was Agatha Christie. He managed to buy a significant part of Mallowan's library of archaeology books which I subsequently bought from him. It included some of Mallowans notebooks from the excavations at Ninevah which we have now put online.

    Although the site needs some work you can see the collection here:

    https://sites.google.com/site/themallowanarchive/

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited October 2017

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact your avatar is an Irish flag, and you keep talking about having made arrangements to move, despite living near Greater Manchester?
    Your comment merely reflects the danger of assumptions.

    I have said repeatedly that I am NOT moving to Dublin
    I have said repeatedly that I have DUAL citizenship

    The tricolour merely reflects the fact that I lost my sense of national pride in being British and that is entirely down to Brexit.

    FYI - It has taken time to get things re-organised but I will have moved away from soggy, rainy old Manchester by Xmas.
    What's the deal with the shoes then? You can see how it could be misconstrued as symbol for leaving for Ireland.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    The current system is not a nightmare. There are no jackboots kicking in my door. There is a framework of laws guaranteeing my security and rights and making it easy for me to contribute to the common good. The system is not perfect, nonetheless it works.

    To ask that it all be thrown away for an abstraction is not rational.

    Who on earth is asking for all that to be thrown out? We are simply leaving the EU, not throwing out the framework of laws that guarantee rights and security - which, BTW, pre-date the EU by centuries.

    For instance, habeas corpus = 1166, The Assize of Clarendon
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited October 2017
    Danny565 said:

    You and others keep saying this, but no border with Ireland after Brexit would also mean the EU abandoning one of their sacred principles, yet the whole of the government's negotiating strategy hinges on the idea the EU will give way on that one. You can't simultaneously criticise Stephen Bush's idea for supposedly being fantasy, yet also say the government's strategy is feasible and realistic, when both rely on the EU ripping up their "rules" in some way.

    I keep saying it because it is true. Stephen Bush's idea is a non-starter.

    Now, you are arguing a different point, which is that the UK government's position also doesn't work, because it too would require the EU to rip up their rules. But this is wrong. There is absolutely nothing to stop them having special rules for local people, so that they can work and shop across the border from where they live. This already happens at, for example, the French-Swiss border. Switzerland is not in the customs union.

    As regards documentation for commercial traffic, again there is absolutely no reason why (if we have a trade agreement) you can't have a self-certification process. Again, that already exists at the Swiss-EU and Norway-Sweden borders. Commercial cargoes are not routinely checked, but you have (in theory at least) spot checks to ensure any documentation is correct. In practice, there are very few such checks.

    For the vanishingly small number of cases where there might need to be a customs inspection, this can be handled by designating a small number of crossing points where you can voluntarily make a declaration and cargoes can be inspected, or you can simply do it through paperwork. Much like the existing arrangements for declaring imports of Irish whiskey into Northern Ireland, in fact.

    Clearly, for this to work, it helps a lot if there are no tariffs and mutual recognition of standards, which is what the UK is asking for.

    The UK proposal would work perfectly well, provided we have a trade agreement with our EU friends. If they are not interested in that, well, then they might decide they need to put up customs barriers. Entirely up to them, but there is no legal reason why it wouldn't work without a physically-intrusive border.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
    It depends by what currency you judge your politics.

    For some, the amount of cash in the bank and pragmatics of day-to-day living is all that really matters. For others, having the right to vote to change laws and regulations, and reverse them, is what makes them feel free and empowered.

    Neither is foolish.
    How do you like your passport cooked? I hope feeling empowered will keep you warm at night. Etc etc....

    It seems to me that post-EU, the situation for many people will be worse than they are under the current system. The current system is not a nightmare. There are no jackboots kicking in my door. There is a framework of laws guaranteeing my security and rights and making it easy for me to contribute to the common good. The system is not perfect, nonetheless it works.

    To ask that it all be thrown away for an abstraction is not rational.
    Leaving the EU does not threaten our basic living standards.

    But, for me, the type of society we live in, the rights we enjoy, and how we're governed are all-important. As are the values we set and defend to future generations that will follow us.

    We only live for, what, perhaps 80 years on this planet, if we're lucky?

    As I get older, the more I realise that the level of cash I have sitting in my bank account, and whether it's 10% higher, or 10% lower, actually makes very little difference to my intrinsic happiness, contentment or well-being.

    The choices and freedoms and political power I enjoy do.
  • I remember pre-referendum being assured only a Leave victory would unite the Tory party.

    Asking for a friend, when's the ETA for that?

    Someone needs to do a 'Kinnock speech' aimed at the Eurosceptics.

    “..and you end in the grotesque chaos of a Conservative MP – a Conservative MP - demanding that his own Chancellor fiddle the forecasts to hide from economic reality."
    Did Kinnock a lot of good didn't it :)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    Mortimer said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I also note that @Beverley_C has appointed herself PB Empress of Womens’ Shoes.

    Hmm.....

    Just as well I was not on earlier as I might have had something to say about that. My shoe collection, my love of and desire for shoes ..... well, it’s incomprehensible to all the men I know.

    Still, as my Italian Mama rightly said: “One can never have too many shoes or handbags or gloves.”

    In our flat, the spare room is crammed full with pairs of my wife's shoes and handbags. I don't complain though, for fear of objections to the quantity of books that fill every other available recess in the flat.
    I am guilty on the books front as well, I’m afraid.

    Every time I ask my builder to build me more shelves he asks me why I don’t get rid of my books. Then he looks at me. Then he starts measuring up.
    My other half is threatening to introduce a "one in, one out" rule for books. We're contemplating a move and one of the bones of contention is that I want a study. Since I have a very big study in Hungary, that is apparently excessive.
    That is grounds for divorce.

    I was fortunate to grow up in a bookshop owned by my Mum. At the last count I have something over 20,000 books in my house, a situation helped by the fact my wife was also an avid reader/collector so the combined collection required a dedicated library when we moved in together.
    Is your favourite novel 'Books do Furnish a Room' ?
    :smile:

    Spent today in a stuffy Mayfair hotel basement room buying books from a Cheshire country house library that was formed between the seventeenth and twentieth centuries. The range was incredible: my favourite purchase was a folio of 1862 photographs by a leading Jewish preraphelite; second favourite an early English book binding with endpapers from an early John Webster work. Books are sooooo fun.
    Is that for work ?
    In any case, enviable.... particularly as photography is another passion.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    MTimT said:

    The current system is not a nightmare. There are no jackboots kicking in my door. There is a framework of laws guaranteeing my security and rights and making it easy for me to contribute to the common good. The system is not perfect, nonetheless it works.

    To ask that it all be thrown away for an abstraction is not rational.

    Who on earth is asking for all that to be thrown out? We are simply leaving the EU, not throwing out the framework of laws that guarantee rights and security - which, BTW, pre-date the EU by centuries.

    For instance, habeas corpus = 1166, The Assize of Clarendon
    What are you blithering on about? We all know human rights/the rule of law were implemented by the EU.

    :D
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    @SamCoatesTimes: Empire 2.0 sails back into view with a vengeance https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/918578270471274496

    History repeats, first as tragedy, then as farce.

    I am sure Charles will very much enjoy having his yacht paid for.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact your avatar is an Irish flag, and you keep talking about having made arrangements to move, despite living near Greater Manchester?
    Your comment merely reflects the danger of assumptions.

    I have said repeatedly that I am NOT moving to Dublin
    I have said repeatedly that I have DUAL citizenship

    The tricolour merely reflects the fact that I lost my sense of national pride in being British and that is entirely down to Brexit.

    FYI - It has taken time to get things re-organised but I will have moved away from soggy, rainy old Manchester by Xmas.
    That's like saying I lost my sense of national pride because Labour won a majority.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Why do you fly the flag of a country that restricts women's access to abortion?
    I fly the flag of a country that has made huge social strides in my lifetime and looks like it will be making more. Ireland has gone from a totally parochial backwater to a far more modern outlook. Brexit-UK seems to be going the other way.
  • AnnaAnna Posts: 59

    Anna said:

    surbiton said:

    Anna:

    If you want to end up in a WTO tribunal and then lose, of course, you can. The basic WTO rule is that you cannot discriminate between countries unless you have a Trade agreement. Therefore, the Irish Republic and, say, Belgium or any other EU country has to be treated in the same way - FTA or no FTA.

    I would be treating every country the same way though - if you bring your goods in by land follow set of rules X, if by air or by sea follow set of rules Y.
    Doesn't work as a fudge. The EU acts as a single entity in the WTO so does not just share a land border with the UK.

    If the EU did that then they would need to treat goods from the UK the same as goods from Turkey, Russia etc.
    Fair point - but this sounds like the EU's problem to me, not ours.

    If the EU or the Irish government try to set up infrastructure on the Irish border to go beyond the "lightly controlled" status today, then good luck to them. Personally I wouldn't expect any permanent physical infrastructure on that border to last 5 minutes, which coincidentally would also be the survival time I'd expect for any government that used violence to protect such infrastructure.

    If anything this sounds like a compelling reason for why the EU need a FTA with us...
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    https://moneyish.com/ish/the-most-worthless-graduate-degree-in-america-is/?link=TD_nypost_articles.7c7e0f416376f79f&utm_source=nypost_articles.7c7e0f416376f79f&utm_campaign=circular&utm_medium=MONEY - I think the Student Loan Company has to know the current salary for every ex student and the course they took, both the couse and the institution - why can we not publish these sort of statistics here? It would be interesting to see if Bournemouth University can justify its Vice Chancellor's salary.
  • tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.

    My poor Breixt pub contact tonight bemoaned the lack of congeniality from the EU towards our democratic vote.

    How the hell could the EU give us a good deal when some, if not all EU countries, are facing populist movements? How could that work?

    The UK has to lose out as a result of the populist Brexit vote. Of course we could strike deals outside and become a global power again. There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
    By 'populism' do you mean 'democracy'?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Do you think that might have anything to do with the fact your avatar is an Irish flag, and you keep talking about having made arrangements to move, despite living near Greater Manchester?
    Your comment merely reflects the danger of assumptions.

    I have said repeatedly that I am NOT moving to Dublin
    I have said repeatedly that I have DUAL citizenship

    The tricolour merely reflects the fact that I lost my sense of national pride in being British and that is entirely down to Brexit.

    FYI - It has taken time to get things re-organised but I will have moved away from soggy, rainy old Manchester by Xmas.
    I merely pointed out why people might still be confused by your intentions.

    I'm not clear where you're planning to move away to by Christmas, as it happens, not that it's any of my business.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Who specifically would you reduce?

    Should a skilled Canadian teacher be told they can't come over to make room for free movement from Europe? How do you justify it?
    The skilled Canadian teacher has no right to come to Britain. We can choose to invite them over or make it easy for them to come. Or not, as the case may be.

    FoM can be justified on the basis that:-

    1. We along with our neighbours have made a conscious decision to make it easier for Europeans to live and move freely among European countries because we are neighbours and because it is one way of creating a friendly Europe rather than the Europe which existed for too much of the 20th century.

    2. European immigrants are some of the most productive immigrants there are and, on the whole, tend not to bring with them the problems associated with immigrants from faraway places and very different cultures.

    Appreciate that this is not an issue with Canadians on the whole but FoM does not stop them coming. It just means that they have no automatic right to come and may have to take their place in a queue.

    There are issues with FoM. I have outlined some of them in my thread headers. I think the belief in unlimited immigration as an unqualified good is a shibboleth which does not really stand up to close scrutiny. But, really, the most problematic issues we have associated with immigration do not come from having too many Polish plumbers, Portuguese nurses and Latvian IT specialists coming here.

    So if immigration is an issue we need to address - and it is - we should focus on what we can already control. So reintroduce the primary purpose rule to stop young British girls of Pakistani origin being married to cousins from Pakistan. Refuse to accept as asylum seekers and deport those who have arrived here after travelling through any number of safe countries. Take effective steps to deport those who arrive here illegally. Adopt something like the Swiss system re benefits to stop those coming here just for benefits

    I accept that I am probably a minority on this. But migration from EU countries is not really the biggest problem - let alone the biggest immigration problem - we have. And yet it seems to be determining our European strategy. It is both peculiar and short-sighted. And if controlling it means that we end up letting in more people from countries / groups which are associated with problems of integration etc, well that would be bloody daft, no?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Nigelb said:

    Mortimer said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I also note that @Beverley_C has appointed herself PB Empress of Womens’ Shoes.

    Hmm.....

    Just as well I was not on earlier as I might have had something to say about that. My shoe collection, my love of and desire for shoes ..... well, it’s incomprehensible to all the men I know.

    Still, as my Italian Mama rightly said: “One can never have too many shoes or handbags or gloves.”

    In our flat, the spare room is crammed full with pairs of my wife's shoes and handbags. I don't complain though, for fear of objections to the quantity of books that fill every other available recess in the flat.
    I am guilty on the books front as well, I’m afraid.

    Every time I ask my builder to build me more shelves he asks me why I don’t get rid of my books. Then he looks at me. Then he starts measuring up.
    My other half is threatening to introduce a "one in, one out" rule for books. We're contemplating a move and one of the bones of contention is that I want a study. Since I have a very big study in Hungary, that is apparently excessive.
    That is grounds for divorce.

    I was fortunate to grow up in a bookshop owned by my Mum. At the last count I have something over 20,000 books in my house, a situation helped by the fact my wife was also an avid reader/collector so the combined collection required a dedicated library when we moved in together.
    Is your favourite novel 'Books do Furnish a Room' ?
    :smile:

    Spent today in a stuffy Mayfair hotel basement room buying books from a Cheshire country house library that was formed between the seventeenth and twentieth centuries. The range was incredible: my favourite purchase was a folio of 1862 photographs by a leading Jewish preraphelite; second favourite an early English book binding with endpapers from an early John Webster work. Books are sooooo fun.
    Is that for work ?
    In any case, enviable.... particularly as photography is another passion.
    I am very lucky. My first job became my hobby and I turned it into a business that supports me and several employees. Ain't Britain fantastic?

  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.

    My poor Breixt pub contact tonight bemoaned the lack of congeniality from the EU towards our democratic vote.

    How the hell could the EU give us a good deal when some, if not all EU countries, are facing populist movements? How could that work?

    The UK has to lose out as a result of the populist Brexit vote. Of course we could strike deals outside and become a global power again. There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
    TSE could arrange the latter.
    Ha....But....could he throw in Jenny Agutter (as she looked in American Werewolf et al...) too for a foursome? Or Jessica Lange from the Postman Always Rings Twice perhaps? Or Britt Eckland from the Wicker Man. Those three contributed to a particularly messy adolescence for me......
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Why do you fly the flag of a country that restricts women's access to abortion?
    I fly the flag of a country that has made huge social strides in my lifetime and looks like it will be making more. Ireland has gone from a totally parochial backwater to a far more modern outlook. Brexit-UK seems to be going the other way.
    Except, there is no evidence the UK is going the other way - just windy rhetoric.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289
    Scott_P said:
    Does it name any of the 'business chiefs' calling for Hammond to be sacked?
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.

    My poor Breixt pub contact tonight bemoaned the lack of congeniality from the EU towards our democratic vote.

    How the hell could the EU give us a good deal when some, if not all EU countries, are facing populist movements? How could that work?

    The UK has to lose out as a result of the populist Brexit vote. Of course we could strike deals outside and become a global power again. There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
    TSE could arrange the latter.
    Ha....But....could he throw in Jenny Agutter (as she looked in American Werewolf et al...) too for a foursome? Or Jessica Lange from the Postman Always Rings Twice perhaps? Or Britt Eckland from the Wicker Man. Those three contributed to a particularly messy adolescence for me......
    You missed out Susan George from Straw Dogs timeframe.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Mortimer said:

    Spent today in a stuffy Mayfair hotel basement room buying books from a Cheshire country house library that was formed between the seventeenth and twentieth centuries. The range was incredible: my favourite purchase was a folio of 1862 photographs by a leading Jewish preraphelite; second favourite an early English book binding with endpapers from an early John Webster work. Books are sooooo fun.

    Not books, but....

    I have a lithographed star map drawn by dutch astronomer Otto Boeddicker for the Earls of Rosse at their castle in Birr, Co. Offaly. The 7th Earl found a dozen of them when having the castle refurbished and sold me one for £5 (this was decades ago).

    They are about A2 in size and still in the original folio, but I have no idea if they have any value or not. Apparently they never got past the proof runs (1890ish) because photography came along and rendered them obsolete after Boeddicker had spent 10 years drawing them by hand.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.

    My poor Breixt pub contact tonight bemoaned the lack of congeniality from the EU towards our democratic vote.

    How the hell could the EU give us a good deal when some, if not all EU countries, are facing populist movements? How could that work?

    The UK has to lose out as a result of the populist Brexit vote. Of course we could strike deals outside and become a global power again. There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
    By 'populism' do you mean 'democracy'?
    Probably....the prospect of illiterate nincompoops deciding my future fills me with dread...

    I think the Chinese Communist Party, providing they get to grips with wiping out elephants, tigers, climate change and whotnot, have it about right.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    I never would have guessed Beverley_C was Mancunian...
  • PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Why do you fly the flag of a country that restricts women's access to abortion?
    I fly the flag of a country that has made huge social strides in my lifetime and looks like it will be making more. Ireland has gone from a totally parochial backwater to a far more modern outlook. Brexit-UK seems to be going the other way.
    I must have missed the bit where Theresa May banned abortion...
  • PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Why do you fly the flag of a country that restricts women's access to abortion?
    I fly the flag of a country that has made huge social strides in my lifetime and looks like it will be making more. Ireland has gone from a totally parochial backwater to a far more modern outlook. Brexit-UK seems to be going the other way.
    No it really isn't.
  • Does it name any of the 'business chiefs' calling for Hammond to be sacked?

    LOL! For every 'business chief' wanting him sacked, there will be 100 who would be absolutely horrified.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2017

    PAW said:

    Beverley_C - I have an idea that moving to the Irish Republic (I think you intend to) will not be the best way of avoiding brexit blues.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/thousands-attend-dublin-abortion-rights-protest-1.3239832
    PAW - Glad to see that the "Bev is going to Ireland" meme is still going round and round PB after repeated denials on my part.

    Keep up the good work Sunil

    (BTW Abortion is not Brexit - my cure for the Brexit blues is entirely different)
    Why do you fly the flag of a country that restricts women's access to abortion?
    I fly the flag of a country that has made huge social strides in my lifetime and looks like it will be making more. Ireland has gone from a totally parochial backwater to a far more modern outlook. Brexit-UK seems to be going the other way.
    Except, there is no evidence the UK is going the other way - just windy rhetoric.
    OK.

    I have choices and I am exercising them. I am actually acting on my views about how Brexit will turn out, not just expressing opinions.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    tyson said:

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.

    I made a post the other day along those lines. I asked what difference "sovereignty" will make to the household bills, food on the table or other practical day-to-day things. Like the thread header recently, I cannot eat a blue passport.

    I got no responses for the very obvious reason that "sovereignty" is Fool's Gold at best ...
    It depends by what currency you judge your politics.

    For some, the amount of cash in the bank and pragmatics of day-to-day living is all that really matters. For others, having the right to vote to change laws and regulations, and reverse them, is what makes them feel free and empowered.

    Neither is foolish.
    How do you like your passport cooked? I hope feeling empowered will keep you warm at night. Etc etc....

    It seems to me that post-EU, the situation for many people will be worse than they are under the current system. The current system is not a nightmare. There are no jackboots kicking in my door. There is a framework of laws guaranteeing my security and rights and making it easy for me to contribute to the common good. The system is not perfect, nonetheless it works.

    To ask that it all be thrown away for an abstraction is not rational.
    Leaving the EU does not threaten our basic living standards.

    But, for me, the type of society we live in, the rights we enjoy, and how we're governed are all-important. As are the values we set and defend to future generations that will follow us.

    We only live for, what, perhaps 80 years on this planet, if we're lucky?

    As I get older, the more I realise that the level of cash I have sitting in my bank account, and whether it's 10% higher, or 10% lower, actually makes very little difference to my intrinsic happiness, contentment or well-being.

    The choices and freedoms and political power I enjoy do.

    My realization in the last decade has been that most 'assets' are in fact liabilities. Once body, shelter and security are taken care of, happiness has bugger all to do with cash or shiny cars.
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    edited October 2017
    MTimT said:

    tyson said:

    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    tyson said:

    Funnily enough I had the misfortune to sit next to a full on Brexit (really quite famous after I wikied him) Peer historian at my local....in Oxford this very evening.

    The only argument he was able to give about Brexit was Parliamentary sovereignty.

    I tried to explain to him as amicably as possible that Brexit has already cost me where I live, thousands upon thousands of squidlies, caused my wife and her family undue anxiety and the rest....

    and for what. For fucking Parliamentary sovereignty over the spectre of EU regulation..he couldn't even give me one example where Parliamentary sovereignty would make one iota of a smidgen of a bit of interest in my life. Not one. Not one repeat. Not one. Do I need to repeat that again.


    So my conclusion...you Brexiteers who quote Parliamentary sovereignty are a bunch of nihilistic, destructive, ideological numpties.

    The rest of the Brexit voters who don't give a shit about Parliament are just simply racist and narrow minded, or illiterate. Take your pick where you stand.

    I care about Parliamentary sovereignty.

    If you don't would you be happy to abolish Parliament altogether and appoint Theresa May for life as dictatorial Lord Protector?
    Not Theresa May, but he feels love and loyalty towards Jean Claude Juncker.
    Demonising the EU will get you nowhere.

    My poor Breixt pub contact tonight bemoaned the lack of congeniality from the EU towards our democratic vote.

    How the hell could the EU give us a good deal when some, if not all EU countries, are facing populist movements? How could that work?

    The UK has to lose out as a result of the populist Brexit vote. Of course we could strike deals outside and become a global power again. There again I could have a threesome with Angelie Jolie and Cameron Diaz.
    TSE could arrange the latter.
    Ha....But....could he throw in Jenny Agutter (as she looked in American Werewolf et al...) too for a foursome? Or Jessica Lange from the Postman Always Rings Twice perhaps? Or Britt Eckland from the Wicker Man. Those three contributed to a particularly messy adolescence for me......
    You missed out Susan George from Straw Dogs timeframe.
    Yes absolutely....and perhaps Julie Christe from Don't Look Now while we are at it.... Even at a push, Babs Windosr from Carry on Camping....(at a push)

    I feel sorry for the young adolescent males of today because they will never experience that kind of eroticism that I grew up with in the 70's and 80's
This discussion has been closed.