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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » TMay’s plan to enshrine the Brexit date in law looks set to fa

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  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,891

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Anyone else you’d like to chuck out against their will? Liverpool maybe - awfully expensive to subsidise we’d be better shut of it. E Anglia - Brexit central, got to go? How about Sheffield? That’s a good one. We could wall it off and give it to Ireland, sod ‘em. Teach them right for voting for Clegg.
  • stevef said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    A general election is fought on many issues not just one. A general election is won on far less than 50% of the vote let alone the 52% achieved by Leave.

    If the will of the British people is ignored, I fear that many people would conclude that democracy is being ignored and would turn to "other means"
    Parliament is sovereign, why don't you believe in Parliamentary sovereignty?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    Think of it being similar to the Anglo-Irish agreement that Mrs Thatcher did.

    She was bold then.
    A slight difference between an inter governmental conference and the confirmation of no change in the status of NI without the support of a majority of the people of NI and handing over NI to the Republic
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,207
    edited November 2017
    Scott_P said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    It will split families, couples, friends, colleagues. I think regardless of the result, we would then have to live with US-style hyper-partisanship as a permanent feature of our politics.

    That happened last time
    Can't you see how much worse it will be to go through again? At least the first time each side thought they had a fair go.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,182
    edited November 2017

    Sandpit said:

    A minimum of 190 Premier League games will be televised live in Britain from start of the 2019-20 season.

    Premier League chairmen voted unanimously for the package, with the rights set to go out to auction before Christmas.

    A new package of Saturday night games is likely to be offered to broadcasters, along with more midweek and Bank Holiday matches.

    There will be a minimum of 22 additional live games on offer.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/42022871

    They really just should stop fannying around and make all games available. The likes of Red Zone in the US for the hand egg has been a massive success.

    The 15:00 blackout is probably now redundant, so they should just embrace it and show every match live. I can walk into a bar in Dubai or Singapore on a Saturday evening, and find seven live Premier League matches on seven screens, all with the same English commentators that will be on MOTD later. Those who want to watch live will find those games streaming on the Internet easily enough.

    Messing around with the times to accommodate the TV also annoys the fans at the match, especially with midday Saturday or late Sunday kickoffs which can’t be done on public transport.

    Most annoying was they way they split the rights between Sky and BT, with every match exclusive to one or the other a consumer wanting to watch his team every week has to subscribe to both channels to watch, rather than just one as was previously the case. Splitting that way probably makes the rights more valuable to the Premier League though.

    I think in the US they still have regional blackouts for games that haven’t sold out, which must be really annoying as everyone tries to persuade friends to go to the match so everyone else can see it on TV.
    The only reason the rights are split is because of EU.

    Agree with the 3pm blackout, all it is doing is driving illegal streaming. It feels very much like the music industry / napster. What they should be doing is working out a way to provide all the coverage and a red zone style access via online, all at a reasonable monthly cost.

    The split was always going to happen. The PL makes more money that way.

    Except that isn't true. The PL fought against this ruling, as they have always had a package system. However, it was simply the highest bidder won each package, which at the time happened to be Sky. Now they have to in theory accept lower amounts to ensure that Sky doesn't win all of them.

    The reason for the increased cost of rights over the past few years isn't the EU ruling, it is that for Sky EPL is key to their business model and now BT (and if soon to be believed Amazon) have seen the value in content rights to pushing their other products.
  • welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Anyone else you’d like to chuck out against their will? Liverpool maybe - awfully expensive to subsidise we’d be better shut of it. E Anglia - Brexit central, got to go? How about Sheffield? That’s a good one. We could wall it off and give it to Ireland, sod ‘em. Teach them right for voting for Clegg.
    The UK Government has a history of chucking people out against their will for the greater good.

    Cf the people of the Chagos Islands.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 20,185

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    A pattern of ignoring the democratic will of the people TSE - at least you are consistent.
    Norn Iron voted to remain in the EU, so I'm honouring the will of the people.
    So did Liverpool - can it be given to the RoI ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,405

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You just get a kick from trolling Conservative voters.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,891

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    Yes, sadly, seriously.

    This would stir emotions like nothing else. Pandora’s box. I would fear for us.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You are an Orange Book LD ie a republican, non Unionist, anti Brexit, classically liberal, free marketeer.

    The town council seat I 'lost' was last won at the same time as the 2015 general election when the Tories won an overall majority, rather different to August 2017 and 2/3 of the district councillors in the ward I stood in were already LD.
    In fact I got a higher voteshare in August than the 2016 and 2014 Tory district council candidates did in the same ward.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,405
    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Anyone else you’d like to chuck out against their will? Liverpool maybe - awfully expensive to subsidise we’d be better shut of it. E Anglia - Brexit central, got to go? How about Sheffield? That’s a good one. We could wall it off and give it to Ireland, sod ‘em. Teach them right for voting for Clegg.
    Sheffield is a dead weight, financially speaking.
  • Sandpit said:

    A minimum of 190 Premier League games will be televised live in Britain from start of the 2019-20 season.

    Premier League chairmen voted unanimously for the package, with the rights set to go out to auction before Christmas.

    A new package of Saturday night games is likely to be offered to broadcasters, along with more midweek and Bank Holiday matches.

    There will be a minimum of 22 additional live games on offer.

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/42022871

    They really just should stop fannying around and make all games available. The likes of Red Zone in the US for the hand egg has been a massive success.

    The 15:00 blackout is probably now redundant, so they should just embrace it and show every match live. I can walk into a bar in Dubai or Singapore on a Saturday evening, and find seven live Premier League matches on seven screens, all with the same English commentators that will be on MOTD later. Those who want to watch live will find those games streaming on the Internet easily enough.

    Messing around with the times to accommodate the TV also annoys the fans at the match, especially with midday Saturday or late Sunday kickoffs which can’t be done on public transport.

    Most annoying waswas previously the case. Splitting that way probably makes the rights more valuable to the Premier League though.

    I think in the US they still have regional blackouts for games that haven’t sold out, which must be really annoying as everyone tries to persuade friends to go to the match so everyone else can see it on TV.
    The only reason the rights are split is because of EU.

    Agree with the 3pm blackout, all it is doing is driving illegal streaming. It feels very much like the music industry / napster. What they should be doing is working out a way to provide all the coverage and a red zone style access via online, all at a reasonable monthly cost.

    The split was always going to happen. The PL makes more money that way.

    Except that isn't true. The PL fought against this ruling, as they previously had a package system where simply the highest bidder won each package. Now they have to in theory accept lower amounts to ensure that Sky doesn't win all of them.

    The reason for the increased cost of rights over the past few years isn't the EU ruling, it is that for Sky EPL is key to their business model and now BT (and if soon to be believed Amazon) have seen the value in content rights to pushing their other products.

    Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

  • welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 4,466
    FFS. We have people talking about abolishing Parliament, violence on the streets and "other means."
    And I am an unpatriotic opponent of democracy if I don't cheer all this on?
    Frankly I don't give a monkey's about Brexit.
    But I do know which side I am on.
  • welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Anyone else you’d like to chuck out against their will? Liverpool maybe - awfully expensive to subsidise we’d be better shut of it. E Anglia - Brexit central, got to go? How about Sheffield? That’s a good one. We could wall it off and give it to Ireland, sod ‘em. Teach them right for voting for Clegg.
    Much simpler to just let London go independent.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,182
    edited November 2017


    Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

    Not necessarily. It could well have been the case that the competition simply drove Sky to bid higher for every package to keep the exclusive rights.

    Now Sky bid whatever it takes to keep the main packages and then BT gets the secondary stuff. And the consumer is left definitely having to subscribe to two different networks in order to get complete EPL coverage.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,492
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You are an Orange Book LD ie a republican, non Unionist, anti Brexit, classically liberal, free marketeer.

    The town council seat I 'lost' was last won at the same time as the 2015 general election when the Tories won an overall majority, rather different to August 2017 and 2/3 of the district councillors in the ward I stood in were already LD.
    In fact I got a higher voteshare in August than the 2016 and 2014 Tory district council candidates did in the same ward.
    You lost a seat to the LibDems when they were on 6% nationally that the Tories won when the LibDems were on 8%? And by a massive margin?

  • Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

    Not necessarily. It could well have been the case that the competition simply drove Sky to bid higher for every package to keep the exclusive rights.

    Well, let’s see if that happens once we’ve escaped the CJEU’s tyranny!

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,891

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Anyone else you’d like to chuck out against their will? Liverpool maybe - awfully expensive to subsidise we’d be better shut of it. E Anglia - Brexit central, got to go? How about Sheffield? That’s a good one. We could wall it off and give it to Ireland, sod ‘em. Teach them right for voting for Clegg.
    The UK Government has a history of chucking people out against their will for the greater good.

    Cf the people of the Chagos Islands.
    Ok chuck them out. And when the forces of the Irish state enter Ballymena I’m sure the welcome will be warm.

    Who are you lining up for the blue helmet UN force?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 1,459

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Perhaps we could offer them some sort of Associate Membership?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    edited November 2017
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You are an Orange Book LD ie a republican, non Unionist, anti Brexit, classically liberal, free marketeer.

    The town council seat I 'lost' was last won at the same time as the 2015 general election when the Tories won an overall majority, rather different to August 2017 and 2/3 of the district councillors in the ward I stood in were already LD.
    In fact I got a higher voteshare in August than the 2016 and 2014 Tory district council candidates did in the same ward.
    You lost a seat to the LibDems when they were on 6% nationally that the Tories won when the LibDems were on 8%?
    It was a straight LD Tory fight as Labour did not bother to put up a candidate.

    There was a Labour candidate in 2015.


  • Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

    Not necessarily. It could well have been the case that the competition simply drove Sky to bid higher for every package to keep the exclusive rights.

    Well, let’s see if that happens once we’ve escaped the CJEU’s tyranny!

    The point still stands that the EU stuck its podgy fingers into something that has made it worse not better for the consumer.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,492
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You are an Orange Book LD ie a republican, non Unionist, anti Brexit, classically liberal, free marketeer.

    The town council seat I 'lost' was last won at the same time as the 2015 general election when the Tories won an overall majority, rather different to August 2017 and 2/3 of the district councillors in the ward I stood in were already LD.
    In fact I got a higher voteshare in August than the 2016 and 2014 Tory district council candidates did in the same ward.
    You lost a seat to the LibDems when they were on 6% nationally that the Tories won when the LibDems were on 8%?
    It was a straight LD Tory fight as Labour did not bother to put up a candidate.

    There was a Labour candidate in 2015.

    It's a shame someone can't think of a voting system that allows people to express a second preference.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,587

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,405

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Anyone else you’d like to chuck out against their will? Liverpool maybe - awfully expensive to subsidise we’d be better shut of it. E Anglia - Brexit central, got to go? How about Sheffield? That’s a good one. We could wall it off and give it to Ireland, sod ‘em. Teach them right for voting for Clegg.
    The UK Government has a history of chucking people out against their will for the greater good.

    Cf the people of the Chagos Islands.
    I don't think there is the slightest doubt that the treatment of the Chagosians has been disgraceful.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 14,378
    RoyalBlue said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    If Parliament decides to cancel Brexit, the potential consequence are enormous:

    1) a Brexit Party of some description wins the next election

    2) the Tory Party splits irreversibly, letting Corbyn in with a large majority

    3) a large slice of the electorate stops voting permanently, on the basis that Benn's aphorism about elections being banned if they changed anything will have been proved right.

    We could be heading to a very dark place indeed.
    If Brexit was cancelled I'd probably go for two and three.

    I'd vote Corbyn at the next available election as the best route of destroying the establishment.

    Then I'd probably never vote in an election again.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    Not sure I subscribe to the EU approach of continuing to ask until you get the correct result. As Dimbleby himself said, "the people have spoken, we're out!"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You are an Orange Book LD ie a republican, non Unionist, anti Brexit, classically liberal, free marketeer.

    The town council seat I 'lost' was last won at the same time as the 2015 general election when the Tories won an overall majority, rather different to August 2017 and 2/3 of the district councillors in the ward I stood in were already LD.
    In fact I got a higher voteshare in August than the 2016 and 2014 Tory district council candidates did in the same ward.
    You lost a seat to the LibDems when they were on 6% nationally that the Tories won when the LibDems were on 8%?
    It was a straight LD Tory fight as Labour did not bother to put up a candidate.

    There was a Labour candidate in 2015.

    It's a shame someone can't think of a voting system that allows people to express a second preference.
    I voted for AV but that would not have helped me as Labour voters would still have voted LD second, having a Labour candidate in a LD v Tory seat only helps the Tory under FPTP
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 17,723
    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    Not sure I subscribe to the EU approach of continuing to ask until you get the correct result. As Dimbleby himself said, "the people have spoken, we're out!"
    This is true. And in 1975 they spoke and we were in.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 45,523
    RobD said:

    "the people have spoken, we're out!"

    And they can never speak again...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 17,492
    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You are an Orange Book LD ie a republican, non Unionist, anti Brexit, classically liberal, free marketeer.

    The town council seat I 'lost' was last won at the same time as the 2015 general election when the Tories won an overall majority, rather different to August 2017 and 2/3 of the district councillors in the ward I stood in were already LD.
    In fact I got a higher voteshare in August than the 2016 and 2014 Tory district council candidates did in the same ward.
    You lost a seat to the LibDems when they were on 6% nationally that the Tories won when the LibDems were on 8%?
    It was a straight LD Tory fight as Labour did not bother to put up a candidate.

    There was a Labour candidate in 2015.

    It's a shame someone can't think of a voting system that allows people to express a second preference.
    I voted for AV but that would not have helped me as Labour voters would still have voted LD second, having a Labour candidate in a LD v Tory seat only helps the Tory under FPTP
    So basically a majority of the good people of Epping don't want you, and you rely upon their votes being split to stand any chance of election?
  • welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    The people are more than welcome to speak again. Once we've left if we want to vote to rejoin then that would be something we're free to do - not seen anyone anywhere say otherwise have you?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    Not sure I subscribe to the EU approach of continuing to ask until you get the correct result. As Dimbleby himself said, "the people have spoken, we're out!"
    This is true. And in 1975 they spoke and we were in.
    That's a more respectable time frame ;)
  • welshowl said:

    Ok chuck them out. And when the forces of the Irish state enter Ballymena I’m sure the welcome will be warm.

    Who are you lining up for the blue helmet UN force?

    It won't be our problem and if the UN is needed, we won't be asked to contribute, as our presence will be inflammatory.
  • stevef said:

    So there is a 43% chance of democracy -the democratic will of the British people in the referendum -continuing to be ignored.

    The will of just over half of the British people!
    PS Where's the £350million/week?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 4,229
    edited November 2017
    Scott_P said:
    Gerald Warner - there's a blast from the past. He was a great favourite of Coldstone (remember him?) for always being frightfully rude about David Cameron.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154
    IanB2 said:


    So basically a majority of the good people of Epping don't want you, and you rely upon their votes being split to stand any chance of election?

    That's our modus operandi! :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154

    stevef said:

    So there is a 43% chance of democracy -the democratic will of the British people in the referendum -continuing to be ignored.

    The will of just over half of the British people!
    PS Where's the £350million/week?
    We've not left yet... :smiley:
  • Sean_F said:

    I don't think there is the slightest doubt that the treatment of the Chagosians has been disgraceful.

    It is indeed, and Boris Johnson and Theresa May endorsed it.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 17,723
    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    Not sure I subscribe to the EU approach of continuing to ask until you get the correct result. As Dimbleby himself said, "the people have spoken, we're out!"
    This is true. And in 1975 they spoke and we were in.
    That's a more respectable time frame ;)
    It's a wonder that we manage to get ourselves together for general elections every five years.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    Not sure I subscribe to the EU approach of continuing to ask until you get the correct result. As Dimbleby himself said, "the people have spoken, we're out!"
    This is true. And in 1975 they spoke and we were in.
    That's a more respectable time frame ;)
    It's a wonder that we manage to get ourselves together for general elections every five years.
    It's not as if we've had referendums every five years to confirm our EU membership.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 651

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    edited November 2017
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    You are an Orange Book LD ie a republican, non Unionist, anti Brexit, classically liberal, free marketeer.

    The town council seat I 'lost' was last won at the same time ard.
    You lost a seat to the LibDems when they were on 6% nationally that the Tories won when the LibDems were on 8%?
    It was a straight LD Tory fight as Labour did not bother to put up a candidate.

    There was a Labour candidate in 2015.

    It's a shame someone can't think of a voting system that allows people to express a second preference.
    I voted for AV but that would not have helped me as Labour voters would still have voted LD second, having a Labour candidate in a LD v Tory seat only helps the Tory under FPTP
    So basically a majority of the good people of Epping don't want you, and you rely upon their votes being split to stand any chance of election?
    This was only 1 ward in Epping which leans LD, had the other been included as well which is pretty safe Tory and has 3 Tory District councillors and 6 Tory town councillors I probably would have won.

    That is how we won the Epping and Theydon Bois county division in May.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,405

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    The people are more than welcome to speak again. Once we've left if we want to vote to rejoin then that would be something we're free to do - not seen anyone anywhere say otherwise have you?
    The view that seems implicit in argument for a second referendum is that votes in favour of the EU are binding, whereas votes against the EU are not.

    That's why I argued back in the day that the Lib Dems' offer in 2005 to hold a vote on EU membership was not made in good faith. Had the vote been for Leave, the Lib Dems would immediately have sought to reverse it.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 17,723
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Sensible Tories, not fucking idiots, have to deal with the fact that the Cons have retoxified themselves and allowed themselves to be taken over by the forces of bonkersness.

    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
  • London is probably heading for some sort of autonomy within a federal UK.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,074

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not possible

    One Nation Tories are pretty interventionist - the believe in market failure and the need to intervene. That's completely counter to the principals of the Radicals

    I suspect you are a radical with a social conscience.

    (For the record, I'm a Liberal Unionist. Tory Happy Families is a fun game)
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,587
    edited November 2017

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    The people are more than welcome to speak again. Once we've left if we want to vote to rejoin then that would be something we're free to do - not seen anyone anywhere say otherwise have you?
    Does anyone still believe that the voters are going to get the country they voted for at the referendum? With the exact same benefits of EU membership but none of the costs? An extra £350m per week for the NHS?

    If this can be delivered then there is no case for a second referendum.

    But even leavers now admit that it cannot be delivered.

    In which case the voters may wish to change their minds.

    No harm in asking.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Just give him a few more nudges, he is nearly there
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,074

    stevef said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    A general election is fought on many issues not just one. A general election is won on far less than 50% of the vote let alone the 52% achieved by Leave.

    If the will of the British people is ignored, I fear that many people would conclude that democracy is being ignored and would turn to "other means"
    Parliament is sovereign, why don't you believe in Parliamentary sovereignty?
    Bollocks.

    The Crown-in-Parliament is Sovereign

    That is entirely different to Parliament being Sovereign

    And I though you were a lawyer?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 27,405
    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Sensible Tories, not fucking idiots, have to deal with the fact that the Cons have retoxified themselves and allowed themselves to be taken over by the forces of bonkersness.

    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
    "The forces of bonkersness" as you call them, are the vast majority of the people who vote Conservative in this country.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    The people are more than welcome to speak again. Once we've left if we want to vote to rejoin then that would be something we're free to do - not seen anyone anywhere say otherwise have you?
    Does anyone still believe that the voters are going to get the country they voted for at the referendum? With the exact same benefits of EU membership but none of the costs? An extra £350m per week for the NHS?

    If this can be delivered then there is no case for a second referendum.

    But even leavers now admit that it cannot be delivered.

    In which case the voters can be forgiven for changing their minds.
    Obviously they weren't expecting the exact same benefits of EU membership. Free movement will be gone, for starters.
  • Sean_F said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    The people are more than welcome to speak again. Once we've left if we want to vote to rejoin then that would be something we're free to do - not seen anyone anywhere say otherwise have you?
    The view that seems implicit in argument for a second referendum is that votes in favour of the EU are binding, whereas votes against the EU are not.

    That's why I argued back in the day that the Lib Dems' offer in 2005 to hold a vote on EU membership was not made in good faith. Had the vote been for Leave, the Lib Dems would immediately have sought to reverse it.

    You may well be right, but that was 12 years and several elections and changes of leader ago, so who really cares?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Sensible Tories, not fucking idiots, have to deal with the fact that the Cons have retoxified themselves and allowed themselves to be taken over by the forces of bonkersness.

    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
    Given 80% of the 42% who voted Tory in June now back Leave you may be waiting some time.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,287
    We need an opinion poll finding out how many Brexit voters would be willing to die or be imprisoned for their cause.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,074
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Nah - just HYUFD. And, despite his certainty, he's wrong more often that he's right

    May be you should join the Tories?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 17,723
    edited November 2017
    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Sensible Tories, not fucking idiots, have to deal with the fact that the Cons have retoxified themselves and allowed themselves to be taken over by the forces of bonkersness.

    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
    "The forces of bonkersness" as you call them, are the vast majority of the people who vote Conservative in this country.
    Maybe, maybe not, don't you come over all "this is how everyone votes and why" also. We've enough of those on here as it is.

    I know plenty and I mean plenty of Cons who are horrified and disappointed at recent turn of events (was called a Nazi on the doorstep in June by a Cons voter).

    But then if you're right, I and others will have to do some serious soul-searching. I suspect it will be a case of weighing up the least worst option and currently, the Cons for all their ills are the least worst.
  • kjh said:

    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)

    The Tories I respect on here like JohnO say I'm a true Tory, HYUFD is like a Jihadi convert, he's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and Mayism.

    I'm a strong believer in Thatcherite economics, that alone excludes me from the Lib Dems.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in building multi-national organisations like NATO and the EU for defence and free trade. Free trade leads to freer people and less wars. Countries that send goods, services, and people across their borders are less likely to send tanks and armies across those borders.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in an egalitarian state and that no job should be excluded to people based on their background, that's why I believe in abolishing the monarchy and having an elected Head of State.

    Is why like Mrs Thatcher I support the closure/merger of grammar schools and not opening new ones, but focusing on Gove's academies.

    Like for most of Mrs Thatcher's life, I'm in favour of social liberalism, that's why she backed Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality in the 1960s, and why one her earliest acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    For me it is the Tory party or no one else.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 651
    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Nah - just HYUFD. And, despite his certainty, he's wrong more often that he's right

    May be you should join the Tories?
    uummmhhh - No.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 74,735
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not possible

    One Nation Tories are pretty interventionist - the believe in market failure and the need to intervene. That's completely counter to the principals of the Radicals

    I suspect you are a radical with a social conscience.

    (For the record, I'm a Liberal Unionist. Tory Happy Families is a fun game)
    Yeah that's probably true, my free market principles would have let the banks fail in 2008.

    But my compassionate side knew that would screw up the lives of innocent people and companies.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 17,723

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not possible

    One Nation Tories are pretty interventionist - the believe in market failure and the need to intervene. That's completely counter to the principals of the Radicals

    I suspect you are a radical with a social conscience.

    (For the record, I'm a Liberal Unionist. Tory Happy Families is a fun game)
    Yeah that's probably true, my free market principles would have let the banks fails in 2008.

    But my compassionate side knew that would screw up the lives of innocent people and companies.
    There's free market theory (let them fail) and free market practice (inflicting damage on many, many people).

    In the end we, as Conservatives, have a responsibility to the people. As it was, it wasn't a bad outcome - shareholders wiped out, depositors protected.

    Of course no Conservative would have started from there, pre-crisis (Lab's tripartite system).
  • An eighth woman has come forward with claims that former US president George HW Bush groped her.

    An interpreter, whom the BBC has agreed not to name because of the sensitive nature of her job, claims Mr Bush touched her inappropriately in 2004.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41987895
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 23,074
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Sensible Tories, not fucking idiots, have to deal with the fact that the Cons have retoxified themselves and allowed themselves to be taken over by the forces of bonkersness.

    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
    "The forces of bonkersness" as you call them, are the vast majority of the people who vote Conservative in this country.
    Maybe, maybe not, don't you come over all "this is how everyone votes and why" also. We've enough of those on here as it is.

    I know plenty and I mean plenty of Cons who are horrified and disappointed at recent turn of events (was called a Nazi on the doorstep in June by a Cons voter).

    But then if you're right, I and others will have to do some serious soul-searching. I suspect it will be a case of weighing up the least worst option and currently, the Cons for all their ills are the least worst.
    The current tenants are pretty awful, but that doesn't mean you trash the freehold
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,587
    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    The people are more than welcome to speak again. Once we've left if we want to vote to rejoin then that would be something we're free to do - not seen anyone anywhere say otherwise have you?
    Does anyone still believe that the voters are going to get the country they voted for at the referendum? With the exact same benefits of EU membership but none of the costs? An extra £350m per week for the NHS?

    If this can be delivered then there is no case for a second referendum.

    But even leavers now admit that it cannot be delivered.

    In which case the voters can be forgiven for changing their minds.
    Obviously they weren't expecting the exact same benefits of EU membership. Free movement will be gone, for starters.
    Do you believe that the promises made by the leave campaign are deliverable?

    Have our cake and eat it?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Nah - just HYUFD. And, despite his certainty, he's wrong more often that he's right

    May be you should join the Tories?
    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,287
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Gihome on a good night yes
    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    )
    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
    "The forces of bonkersness" as you call them, are the vast majority of the people who vote Conservative in this country.
    Maybe, maybe not, don't you come over all "this is how everyone votes and why" also. We've enough of those on here as it is.

    I know plenty and I mean plenty of Cons who are horrified and disappointed at recent turn of events (was called a Nazi on the doorstep in June by a Cons voter).

    But then if you're right, I and others will have to do some serious soul-searching. I suspect it will be a case of weighing up the least worst option and currently, the Cons for all their ills are the least worst.
    The conservatives are rapidly losing their status as the sensible party that people vote for when they reach their thirties and have kids/houses. They aren't the status quo party any more.

    They are torn in two irreconcilable directions - between the liberal / wealth creating free marketeers and the pro green belt / countryside/ protectionists.

    Even if there was a consensus over Brexit, The greatest faultline is over housing. Many of the ideas expressed about increasing housbuilding and home ownership run against the material interests of its home county political base. We keep seeing this over and over again.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 651

    kjh said:

    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)

    The Tories I respect on here like JohnO say I'm a true Tory, HYUFD is like a Jihadi convert, he's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and Mayism.

    I'm a strong believer in Thatcherite economics, that alone excludes me from the Lib Dems.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in building multi-national organisations like NATO and the EU for defence and free trade. Free trade leads to freer people and less wars. Countries that send goods, services, and people across their borders are less likely to send tanks and armies across those borders.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in an egalitarian state and that no job should be excluded to people based on their background, that's why I believe in abolishing the monarchy and having an elected Head of State.

    Is why like Mrs Thatcher I support the closure/merger of grammar schools and not opening new ones, but focusing on Gove's academies.

    Like for most of Mrs Thatcher's life, I'm in favour of social liberalism, that's why she backed Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality in the 1960s, and why one her earliest acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    For me it is the Tory party or no one else.
    TSE I'm struggling to think of one thing you have said there that a LD disagrees with. If you take all the references out to Mrs Thatcher, which will colour ones view when reading it, and just read what you believe in, there is not a lot to disagree with. In fact parts of paras 4 and 6 are basically what are printed on a LD membership card as to why the LDs exist.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 25,216

    An eighth woman has come forward with claims that former US president George HW Bush groped her.

    An interpreter, whom the BBC has agreed not to name because of the sensitive nature of her job, claims Mr Bush touched her inappropriately in 2004.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41987895

    So, of the last five Presidents, we have one who was likely a rapist, and two others who are probably guilty of sexual harassment.

    Maybe that's why I never got anywhere in politics. I'm simply not enough of a sexual predator.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154

    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    The people are more than welcome to speak again. Once we've left if we want to vote to rejoin then that would be something we're free to do - not seen anyone anywhere say otherwise have you?
    Does anyone still believe that the voters are going to get the country they voted for at the referendum? With the exact same benefits of EU membership but none of the costs? An extra £350m per week for the NHS?

    If this can be delivered then there is no case for a second referendum.

    But even leavers now admit that it cannot be delivered.

    In which case the voters can be forgiven for changing their minds.
    Obviously they weren't expecting the exact same benefits of EU membership. Free movement will be gone, for starters.
    Do you believe that the promises made by the leave campaign are deliverable?

    Have our cake and eat it?
    They certainly didn't promise exactly the same benefits of EU membership.
  • HYUFD said:

    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.

    Because Brexit isn't the only fruit, there's other fundamental issues I agree with the Tory party on.

    And when the Tory party makes mistakes, I pipe up, I'm not a sycophant.

    It was people like me who pointed out all the idiocies of IDS as leader, the Parliamentary party got the message and ditched him.
  • Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not possible

    One Nation Tories are pretty interventionist - the believe in market failure and the need to intervene. That's completely counter to the principals of the Radicals

    I suspect you are a radical with a social conscience.

    (For the record, I'm a Liberal Unionist. Tory Happy Families is a fun game)
    Yeah that's probably true, my free market principles would have let the banks fail in 2008.

    But my compassionate side knew that would screw up the lives of innocent people and companies.
    I cannot recall you ever expressing very economically dry sentiments. Only yesterday you were waxing lyrical about the minimum wage.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983

    kjh said:

    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)

    The Tories I respect on here like JohnO say I'm a true Tory, HYUFD is like a Jihadi convert, he's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and Mayism.

    I'm a strong believer in Thatcherite economics, that alone excludes me from the Lib Dems.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in building multi-national organisations like NATO and the EU for defence and free trade. Free trade leads to freer people and less wars. Countries that send goods, services, and people across their borders are less likely to send tanks and armies across those borders.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in an egalitarian state and that no job should be excluded to people based on their background, that's why I believe in abolishing the monarchy and having an elected Head of State.

    Is why like Mrs Thatcher I support the closure/merger of grammar schools and not opening new ones, but focusing on Gove's academies.

    Like for most of Mrs Thatcher's life, I'm in favour of social liberalism, that's why she backed Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality in the 1960s, and why one her earliest acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    For me it is the Tory party or no one else.
    Most Orange Book LDs lean towards Thatcherism economically e.g. David Laws.

    The Liberals were the party of free trade well before the Tories were.

    Mrs Thatcher as PM stopped any more grammar school closures.

    Most Tories and LDs back keeping homosexuality legal even legal gay marriage now so there is no difference there anyway.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 17,723
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    Yo

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Sensible Tories, not fucking idiots, have to deal with the fact that the Cons have retoxified themselves and allowed themselves to be taken over by the forces of bonkersness.

    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
    "The forces of bonkersness" as you call them, are the vast majority of the people who vote Conservative in this country.
    Maybe, maybe not, don't you come over all "this is how everyone votes and why" also. We've enough of those on here as it is.

    I know plenty and I mean plenty of Cons who are horrified and disappointed at recent turn of events (was called a Nazi on the doorstep in June by a Cons voter).

    But then if you're right, I and others will have to do some serious soul-searching. I suspect it will be a case of weighing up the least worst option and currently, the Cons for all their ills are the least worst.
    The current tenants are pretty awful, but that doesn't mean you trash the freehold
    Yes you're right it's just that I am quite angry at how they have trashed the brand again.
  • kjh said:

    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)

    The Tories I respect on here like JohnO say I'm a true Tory, HYUFD is like a Jihadi convert, he's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and Mayism.

    I'm a strong believer in Thatcherite economics, that alone excludes me from the Lib Dems.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in building multi-national organisations like NATO and the EU for defence and free trade. Free trade leads to freer people and less wars. Countries that send goods, services, and people across their borders are less likely to send tanks and armies across those borders.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in an egalitarian state and that no job should be excluded to people based on their background, that's why I believe in abolishing the monarchy and having an elected Head of State.

    Is why like Mrs Thatcher I support the closure/merger of grammar schools and not opening new ones, but focusing on Gove's academies.

    Like for most of Mrs Thatcher's life, I'm in favour of social liberalism, that's why she backed Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality in the 1960s, and why one her earliest acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    For me it is the Tory party or no one else.
    I think it is very sad and very telling when people pick out particular bits of politicians lives to support their own positions when those politicians radically changed their views over their lifetime. I would not claim Thatcher was anti-EU based solely on her views post Bruges but equally it is ludicrous to claim she was pro EU based solely on her views in the 1970s and early 80s.

    I agree it is acceptable to refer to views she held all her political life but not those that changed throughout her career. It is dishonest.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.

    Because Brexit isn't the only fruit, there's other fundamental issues I agree with the Tory party on.

    And when the Tory party makes mistakes, I pipe up, I'm not a sycophant.

    It was people like me who pointed out all the idiocies of IDS as leader, the Parliamentary party got the message and ditched him.
    IDS would probably have done about the same as Howard in 2005.

    You are not even a monarchist or unionist which have been the two key Tory principles for centuries.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 651
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Nah - just HYUFD. And, despite his certainty, he's wrong more often that he's right

    May be you should join the Tories?
    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.
    Agreed. Presumably you are just assuming I am anti Brexit and a 'he'. Correct on both counts by the way.
  • TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    One in four reported to Prevent are from the extreme right. Judging by the reaction of many Leavers to even the idea of a second referendum, you can see why that might be.
    But the people have spoken. Their will must be obeyed. They must never be allowed to speak again. Democracy in action.
    Not sure I subscribe to the EU approach of continuing to ask until you get the correct result. As Dimbleby himself said, "the people have spoken, we're out!"
    This is true. And in 1975 they spoke and we were in.
    Indeed.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    When the UK government called a Referendum on membership of the EU, I wasn't entirely enthused. Referendums are not a good way of deciding such issues. If you run them on a plain majority then the chances are victories will be narrow. If you put an artificial threshold in, then the advantage to one side is obvious.

    But, once they had called it, there was only one choice for me. I had to campaign to leave, because if we did not win at this stage then full federal integration would have been a certainty. It might have taken a while, but like Lisbon, Governments when thwarted in their ability to do what they desire (the EU Constitution), will simply lie (a tidying up exercise). They only ask the public when backed into a corner on the big issues.

    The bile and hatred that is now flying around is symptomatic of the fact that the referendum itself was a bad idea. But also of the fact that for 30-40 years both main parties had not just accepted integration, but actively pursued it in the face of majority objection, especially after 1997. And often to achieve it, they dissembled. Had one party actually represented the majority of the British people on European integration 30 years ago, we would never have got to this point at all.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 2,587
    RobD said:



    They certainly didn't promise exactly the same benefits of EU membership.

    But the leave campaign did promise lots of things which cannot and will not be delivered. So there is an arguable case for the voters to be asked again.
  • I cannot recall you ever expressing very economically dry sentiments. Only yesterday you were waxing lyrical about the minimum wage.

    I've said many times that we're borrowing and that I wished Osborne had cut faster (though I acknowledge if he had cut faster he would have lost the Tories the 2015 election and risked the jobs boom)

    One of the great things about a Hard/WTO Brexit is that finally make us live within our means.

    I was raised by a mother who viewed debt as the eighth deadliest sin.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 25,216
    HYUFD said:

    Mrs Thatcher as PM stopped any more grammar school closures.

    Source?
  • kjh said:

    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)

    The Tories I respect on here like JohnO say I'm a true Tory, HYUFD is like a Jihadi convert, he's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and Mayism.

    I'm a strong believer in Thatcherite economics, that alone excludes me from the Lib Dems.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in building multi-national organisations like NATO and the EU for defence and free trade. Free trade leads to freer people and less wars. Countries that send goods, services, and people across their borders are less likely to send tanks and armies across those borders.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in an egalitarian state and that no job should be excluded to people based on their background, that's why I believe in abolishing the monarchy and having an elected Head of State.

    Is why like Mrs Thatcher I support the closure/merger of grammar schools and not opening new ones, but focusing on Gove's academies.

    Like for most of Mrs Thatcher's life, I'm in favour of social liberalism, that's why she backed Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality in the 1960s, and why one her earliest acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    For me it is the Tory party or no one else.
    I think it is very sad and very telling when people pick out particular bits of politicians lives to support their own positions when those politicians radically changed their views over their lifetime. I would not claim Thatcher was anti-EU based solely on her views post Bruges but equally it is ludicrous to claim she was pro EU based solely on her views in the 1970s and early 80s.

    I agree it is acceptable to refer to views she held all her political life but not those that changed throughout her career. It is dishonest.
    I should have been clearer, I was talking about Mrs Thatcher whilst she was PM.

    That's what formed by Toryism, how Mrs Thatcher governed (Section 28 apart)
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,602
    What an appalling thread! Bizarre personal and quite nasty attacks on HYUFD, endless insults about the intelligence of leave voters - not a shred of rational argument about anything. The site is deteriorating badly. I voted Remain but increasingly unfond of my fellow travellers.
  • Charles said:

    stevef said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:
    Well, that's not an over the top article.
    I thought we were all agreed that Brexit would be end of Western Democracy??!
    Give it time.

    I suspect if we get the worst case scenario of a Hard/WTO no deal Brexit, then the Demos might be looking for a new form of democracy as the Brexit they were promised hasn't materialised.
    The greatest danger is the total abandonment of what the people told Parliament to do ie by reversing the vote. At which point what then? We will do well, I greatly fear, to avoid violence I would suggest, as there’s no point voting is there?
    Why do Leavers jump to violence, we're a democracy, reversing Brexit at the ballot box via a general election will be no different to the voters chucking out Labour at a general election and putting the Tories in power.

    Do you think we'd have seen violence in 1983 if Michael Foot had won and implemented his manifesto commitment to take the UK out of the EC, overturning the 1975 referendum result?

    Seriously?
    A general election is fought on many issues not just one. A general election is won on far less than 50% of the vote let alone the 52% achieved by Leave.

    If the will of the British people is ignored, I fear that many people would conclude that democracy is being ignored and would turn to "other means"
    Parliament is sovereign, why don't you believe in Parliamentary sovereignty?
    Bollocks.

    The Crown-in-Parliament is Sovereign

    That is entirely different to Parliament being Sovereign

    And I though you were a lawyer?

    Another Leave lie exposed, then ;-)

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.

    Because Brexit isn't the only fruit, there's other fundamental issues I agree with the Tory party on.

    And when the Tory party makes mistakes, I pipe up, I'm not a sycophant.

    It was people like me who pointed out all the idiocies of IDS as leader, the Parliamentary party got the message and ditched him.
    IDS would probably have done about the same as Howard in 2005.

    You are not even a monarchist or unionist which have been the two key Tory principles for centuries.
    He would have done worse than Howard.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154

    RobD said:



    They certainly didn't promise exactly the same benefits of EU membership.

    But the leave campaign did promise lots of things which cannot and will not be delivered. So there is an arguable case for the voters to be asked again.
    And do you keep on asking until they vote the correct way?
  • HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)

    The Tories I respect on here like JohnO say I'm a true Tory, HYUFD is like a Jihadi convert, he's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and Mayism.

    I'm a strong believer in Thatcherite economics, that alone excludes me from the Lib Dems.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in building multi-national organisations like NATO and the EU for defence and free trade. Free trade leads to freer people and less wars. Countries that send goods, services, and people across their borders are less likely to send tanks and armies across those borders.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in an egalitarian state and that no job should be excluded to people based on their background, that's why I believe in abolishing the monarchy and having an elected Head of State.

    Is why like Mrs Thatcher I support the closure/merger of grammar schools and not opening new ones, but focusing on Gove's academies.

    Like for most of Mrs Thatcher's life, I'm in favour of social liberalism, that's why she backed Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality in the 1960s, and why one her earliest acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    For me it is the Tory party or no one else.
    Most Orange Book LDs lean towards Thatcherism economically e.g. David Laws.

    The Liberals were the party of free trade well before the Tories were.

    Mrs Thatcher as PM stopped any more grammar school closures.

    Most Tories and LDs back keeping homosexuality legal even legal gay marriage now so there is no difference there anyway.
    Why are you obsessed about driving this member of the Tory party for over 20 years out of the Tory party?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 37,154
    felix said:

    What an appalling thread! Bizarre personal and quite nasty attacks on HYUFD, endless insults about the intelligence of leave voters - not a shred of rational argument about anything. The site is deteriorating badly. I voted Remain but increasingly unfond of my fellow travellers.

    Like you, I yearn for the days of AV and Scottish Independence. :p
  • I cannot recall you ever expressing very economically dry sentiments. Only yesterday you were waxing lyrical about the minimum wage.

    I've said many times that we're borrowing and that I wished Osborne had cut faster (though I acknowledge if he had cut faster he would have lost the Tories the 2015 election and risked the jobs boom)

    One of the great things about a Hard/WTO Brexit is that finally make us live within our means.

    I was raised by a mother who viewed debt as the eighth deadliest sin.
    Well I applaud those sentiments, but as you imply, the pain has to be felt somewhere.
  • RobD said:

    felix said:

    What an appalling thread! Bizarre personal and quite nasty attacks on HYUFD, endless insults about the intelligence of leave voters - not a shred of rational argument about anything. The site is deteriorating badly. I voted Remain but increasingly unfond of my fellow travellers.

    Like you, I yearn for the days of AV and Scottish Independence. :p
    In the next week you shall see threads on both.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 6,795
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Nah - just HYUFD. And, despite his certainty, he's wrong more often that he's right

    May be you should join the Tories?
    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.
    Since when was Brexit Tory party policy (except in the narrow sense that the referendum result being what it was, it must be acted on by the government of the day) or a match for tory beliefs? I think you are a bit confused.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.

    Because Brexit isn't the only fruit, there's other fundamental issues I agree with the Tory party on.

    And when the Tory party makes mistakes, I pipe up, I'm not a sycophant.

    It was people like me who pointed out all the idiocies of IDS as leader, the Parliamentary party got the message and ditched him.
    IDS would probably have done about the same as Howard in 2005.

    You are not even a monarchist or unionist which have been the two key Tory principles for centuries.
    He would have done worse than Howard.
    His final yougov poll result had the Tories on 34%

  • Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

    Not necessarily. It could well have been the case that the competition simply drove Sky to bid higher for every package to keep the exclusive rights.

    Well, let’s see if that happens once we’ve escaped the CJEU’s tyranny!

    The point still stands that the EU stuck its podgy fingers into something that has made it worse not better for the consumer.

    Depends on what you mean by consumer. As a consumer of Tottenham Hotspur the money that the TV stations have given to football clubs means the product I am watching is far better than it used to be. And if you support City or Chelsea or any other club backed by a billionaire, you are only doing so because of the wealth and profile the PL has as a result of the blanket TV coverage it gets.

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.

    Because Brexit isn't the only fruit, there's other fundamental issues I agree with the Tory party on.

    And when the Tory party makes mistakes, I pipe up, I'm not a sycophant.

    It was people like me who pointed out all the idiocies of IDS as leader, the Parliamentary party got the message and ditched him.
    IDS would probably have done about the same as Howard in 2005.

    You are not even a monarchist or unionist which have been the two key Tory principles for centuries.
    He would have done worse than Howard.
    His final yougov poll result had the Tories on 34%
    And, swingback would have kicked in, and the Tories would have struggled to poll 30% with IDS at a general election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    felix said:

    What an appalling thread! Bizarre personal and quite nasty attacks on HYUFD, endless insults about the intelligence of leave voters - not a shred of rational argument about anything. The site is deteriorating badly. I voted Remain but increasingly unfond of my fellow travellers.

    I also voted Remain but like you am also a democrat and accept the principle and practice of the Leave vote, sadly it seems a view which some on here will do anything to oppose
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 74,735
    edited November 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Since when was Brexit Tory party policy (except in the narrow sense that the referendum result being what it was, it must be acted on by the government of the day) or a match for tory beliefs? I think you are a bit confused.

    Indeed.

    Whilst I think Brexit is going to be a disaster, I think Corbyn as Prime Minister and John McDonnell as Chancellor will be an even bigger disaster, so I'll do my best to stop the latter happening.

    My fear is that I'll get the worst of both worlds, as the former begets the latter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)

    The Tories I respect on here like JohnO say I'm a true Tory, HYUFD is like a Jihadi convert, he's strapped on the suicide belt of Brexit and Mayism.

    I'm a strong believer in Thatcherite economics, that alone excludes me from the Lib Dems.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in building multi-national organisations like NATO and the EU for defence and free trade. Free trade leads to freer people and less wars. Countries that send goods, services, and people across their borders are less likely to send tanks and armies across those borders.

    Like Mrs Thatcher I believe in an egalitarian state and that no job should be excluded to people based on their background, that's why I believe in abolishing the monarchy and having an elected Head of State.

    Is why like Mrs Thatcher I support the closure/merger of grammar schools and not opening new ones, but focusing on Gove's academies.

    Like for most of Mrs Thatcher's life, I'm in favour of social liberalism, that's why she backed Leo Abse's bill to decriminalise homosexuality in the 1960s, and why one her earliest acts as PM was to civilise the Scots and Ulster Scots by decriminalising homosexuality in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    For me it is the Tory party or no one else.
    Most Orange Book LDs lean towards Thatcherism economically e.g. David Laws.

    The Liberals were the party of free trade well before the Tories were.

    Mrs Thatcher as PM stopped any more grammar school closures.

    Most Tories and LDs back keeping homosexuality legal even legal gay marriage now so there is no difference there anyway.
    Why are you obsessed about driving this member of the Tory party for over 20 years out of the Tory party?
    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 53,983
    edited November 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    Not sure I should be stirring this pot, BUT, I'm a LD and I've got to tell you I very rarely (if ever) disagree with you TSE and I usually agree whole heartedly with you. One of us is probably supporting the wrong party and your Tory colleagues seem to think it is you. :)
    Nah - just HYUFD. And, despite his certainty, he's wrong more often that he's right

    May be you should join the Tories?
    Why would he join the Tories when he is obviously anti Brexit? Politics would be a far better place if people joined parties which actually matched their beliefs rather than constantly berating the majority of their party because they do not get their own way.
    Since when was Brexit Tory party policy (except in the narrow sense that the referendum result being what it was, it must be acted on by the government of the day) or a match for tory beliefs? I think you are a bit confused.
    Support for the monarchy and Unionism have always been Tory policies and TSE does not even support those either
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 34,182
    edited November 2017


    Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

    Not necessarily. It could well have been the case that the competition simply drove Sky to bid higher for every package to keep the exclusive rights.

    Well, let’s see if that happens once we’ve escaped the CJEU’s tyranny!

    The point still stands that the EU stuck its podgy fingers into something that has made it worse not better for the consumer.

    Depends on what you mean by consumer. As a consumer of Tottenham Hotspur the money that the TV stations have given to football clubs means the product I am watching is far better than it used to be. And if you support City or Chelsea or any other club backed by a billionaire, you are only doing so because of the wealth and profile the PL has as a result of the blanket TV coverage it gets.

    That argument has at best got bugger all to do with the EU meddling and at worst is negatively impacted because of them.

    Anyway, it is besides the main point which was being made, which is the EPL needs to get its act together going forward. These quaint ideas of 3pm blackouts are total nonsense with modern technology. Tinkering with the packages doesn't address any of this.
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