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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : November 17th 2017

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  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    AndyJS said:

    Dreadlock Holiday by 10cc is on BBC4 at the moment. I wonder whether it would count as cultural appropriation these days, a bunch of white guys from Manchester singing reggae music with fake Jamaican accents.

    Never mind appropriation, the overt message that dem niggaz is all either robbers or drug dealers ought to raise a few eyebrows. Dreadful song.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    edited November 2017
    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,105
    Scott_P said:
    Does the EU really want to start a "withholding money" war.....?

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?

    How do they withhold it anyway - since we are the ones who don't pay it in the first place?

    Anyway... "Telegraph".

    Don't have a Telegraph subscription but it sounds like they're refusing to count it in the final bill which they're demanding we agree to within a fortnight or else they deny us trade talks until after March.
    So presumably they are crediting us 36bn not 20bn for the next 2 years contributions?

    Or does it only work when it is in the EU's favour?
    You answered your own question.
  • Options

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    The way the EU are behaving it could become the norm
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,603
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Chris Coleman has left his job with Wales to take over at Championship club Sunderland.

    He has?
    Sir Humphrey might say that was a courageous move...
    Or even Everton ;-)
    Touche. However, our problems pale into insignificance compared to the shambles at SAFC.
    It's bloody great. 18 months ago the Mackems were laughing at our relegation and their survival. Then we swap places and they demonstrate zero bouncebackability. Tough shit.
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    Sean_F said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dreadlock Holiday by 10cc is on BBC4 at the moment. I wonder whether it would count as cultural appropriation these days, a bunch of white guys from Manchester singing reggae music with fake Jamaican accents.

    I've never understood why "cultural appropriation" is meant to be a bad thing. Different cultures borrow from each other.

    It' s just rich left wingers finding something to whinge about.

    It's about power and control. If the left can say you are bad for doing X, and get support for it (either from the mob or your acquiescence), then they can control part of your life.

    Don’t forget anybody who goes exploring is a massive sexist racist and needs to stay in the uk and check their white privilege, according to this guardian contributor...

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/benedict-allen-explorer-racist-british-colonial
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,150

    Scott_P said:
    Does the EU really want to start a "withholding money" war.....?

    With its second largest creditor country.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    It’s a step to the right.

    Put your hands on your hips, and your knees in tight.

    Let’s do the time warp again,



    Gets coat......
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    No Hartlepool First this time.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    Indeed so.

    It explains why we voted to Leave in the first place.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    Could Hartlepool become to UKIP what Brighton is to the Greens?
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    Ishmael_Z said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dreadlock Holiday by 10cc is on BBC4 at the moment. I wonder whether it would count as cultural appropriation these days, a bunch of white guys from Manchester singing reggae music with fake Jamaican accents.

    Never mind appropriation, the overt message that dem niggaz is all either robbers or drug dealers ought to raise a few eyebrows. Dreadful song.
    Och, don't spoil it, blokey whinging about some imagined oppression is a PB Friday night fixture.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,832
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    Could Hartlepool become to UKIP what Brighton is to the Greens?
    Sure. They'd actually need to win first though. Then win again.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.
    Sounds about right.
  • Options
    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/
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    dixiedean said:

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    Could Hartlepool become to UKIP what Brighton is to the Greens?
    Sure. They'd actually need to win first though. Then win again.
    Sounds like Everton (sorry)

    And the other news tonight the Premier League are to target prime time Saturday night TV with live matches clashing with Strictly etc - could be fun
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    I'm sure describing Hartlepool as a timewarp will be an excellent way to diminish the UKIP vote there. Or perhaps not.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    edited November 2017
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    No need to panic! David Davis is in charge of negotiations, and as he so presciently said in May last year:

    "...after Brexit, the pressures on the countries that make up the EU will be different.
    Free trade with Britain is in all their interests.
    This is particularly true of the most powerful leader in Europe, Angela Merkel.
    Her economy is dependent on exports, particularly of manufacturers, and especially of cars. Britain is the second largest and fastest growing car market in Europe.
    Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Volkswagen alone are over 25% of the British market, with the UK buying one million cars from Germany every year.
    They cannot afford the threat being levelled at Britain, so called "WTO terms", because they would involve a 10% levy on all car imports.
    A German Chancellor would have to avoid this, particularly in an election year. In Europe, what a German Chancellor wants, a German Chancellor generally gets."


    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-davis/eu-referendum-brexit-economy_b_10141932.html

    They need us more than we need them Captain Mainwaring!
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
  • Options
    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.
    Sounds about right.
    I have already suggested that earlier this evening.

    Report has been released by the EU of the severe cut backs to the regions following Brexit and it is causing real anger in those regions.

    I have no idea what happens if we drop out and they get nil
  • Options
    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Ishmael_Z said:

    AndyJS said:

    Dreadlock Holiday by 10cc is on BBC4 at the moment. I wonder whether it would count as cultural appropriation these days, a bunch of white guys from Manchester singing reggae music with fake Jamaican accents.

    Never mind appropriation, the overt message that dem niggaz is all either robbers or drug dealers ought to raise a few eyebrows. Dreadful song.
    Well, I think it's a very fine song indeed.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    AndyJS said:

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    I'm sure describing Hartlepool as a timewarp will be an excellent way to diminish the UKIP vote there. Or perhaps not.
    Hahaha - do you think any potential UKIP voters pay one jot of attention to my posts?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.
    Sounds about right.
    I have already suggested that earlier this evening.

    Report has been released by the EU of the severe cut backs to the regions following Brexit and it is causing real anger in those regions.

    I have no idea what happens if we drop out and they get nil
    I am still putting my metaphorical money on a traditional last minute fudge, with everyone claiming victory of sorts. The only difficulty is working out when the 'last minute' is.
  • Options

    welshowl said:

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.
    Sounds about right.
    I have already suggested that earlier this evening.

    Report has been released by the EU of the severe cut backs to the regions following Brexit and it is causing real anger in those regions.

    I have no idea what happens if we drop out and they get nil
    I am still putting my metaphorical money on a traditional last minute fudge, with everyone claiming victory of sorts. The only difficulty is working out when the 'last minute' is.
    And me
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    No need to panic! David Davis is in charge of negotiations, and as he so presciently said in May last year:

    "...after Brexit, the pressures on the countries that make up the EU will be different.
    Free trade with Britain is in all their interests.
    This is particularly true of the most powerful leader in Europe, Angela Merkel.
    Her economy is dependent on exports, particularly of manufacturers, and especially of cars. Britain is the second largest and fastest growing car market in Europe.
    Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Volkswagen alone are over 25% of the British market, with the UK buying one million cars from Germany every year.
    They cannot afford the threat being levelled at Britain, so called "WTO terms", because they would involve a 10% levy on all car imports.
    A German Chancellor would have to avoid this, particularly in an election year. In Europe, what a German Chancellor wants, a German Chancellor generally gets."


    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-davis/eu-referendum-brexit-economy_b_10141932.html

    They need us more than we need them Captain Mainwaring!
    I don't think he was wrong. Put simply, all that has changed is that the EU have decided that they can get what they want by ganging up because they don't believe that we will walk away without a deal - so it is probably true that Merkel knows she does not want WTO but right now she thinks she will not have to. Merkel thinks she will get her money and give us a crap trade deal which gives her tariff free access to our markets but does not give us access to services.

    The way to test this is to be prepared to walk away, and in fact I think that is exactly what now needs to happen. If it was clear that we would indeed go WTO, I think they will cave. It is the remainers who have undermined our negotiating position.
  • Options

    Scott_P said:
    Does the EU really want to start a "withholding money" war.....?

    Trouble is its a dumb headline for exactly the same reason the £350 million was dumb. The 'rebate' is nothing of the sort. We do not give them the money and they do not give it back to us. The value us calculated before any monies are paid and the amount is subtracted from the money we then give to Brussels. They cannot withhold it becausee they never get it.
  • Options
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.
    Which will be painful, but we will get through.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.
    As long as the financial settlement offer is linked explicitly to the delivery and ratification of an acceptable FTA, I agree. Because this is what this is really all about.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2017
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    The main driver is the money differential is enormous these days. England players get over £20k a game, 2nd tier nations often £500-1000 per game.

    One problem is that many 2nd tier players move to NZ, Australia, England is because the amount of money they can make sets their whole extended family up for life and beyond.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725



    I am still putting my metaphorical money on a traditional last minute fudge, with everyone claiming victory of sorts. The only difficulty is working out when the 'last minute' is.

    Given how our own constitutional system is based on fudges, and the EU is famous for managing to pull out some last minute fudge, that is probably right, although a lot of people seem awfully keen on it all collapsing, for different reasons.
    Sean_F said:



    My own view is that Theresa May should make an offer of a credible financial settlement, in advance of the December Summit.

    If she is then told to sod off, then we will know that we are dealing with people who are acting in bad faith, and must spend the next 15 months preparing for no deal.

    Problem will be what is a credible settlement. Do we take on board the statements made on the subject of what is credible? That will be hard since it varies from person to person, and even the EU's position has moved.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    The main driver is the money differential is enormous these days. England players get over £20k a game, 2nd tier nations often £500-1000 per game.

    One problem is that many 2nd tier players move to NZ, Australia, England is because the amount of money they can make sets their whole extended family up for life and beyond.
    It is ridiculous that Samoa, for example, get nothing when they play at Murrayfield. South Africa are suffering too, to a lesser extent.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    Except in rugby once you’ve played for country x (past a certain age 18 or 20 depending I think) that’s it. Ditto I think in footy if you’ve played in a non friendly game, even if for a minute.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    They cannot withhold it becausee they never get it.

    I look forward to Brexiteers making that argument over the coming days...
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    The main driver is the money differential is enormous these days. England players get over £20k a game, 2nd tier nations often £500-1000 per game.

    One problem is that many 2nd tier players move to NZ, Australia, England is because the amount of money they can make sets their whole extended family up for life and beyond.
    It is ridiculous that Samoa, for example, get nothing when they play at Murrayfield. South Africa are suffering too, to a lesser extent.
    Exactly it needs tightening up.
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    welshowl said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    Except in rugby once you’ve played for country x (past a certain age 18 or 20 depending I think) that’s it. Ditto I think in footy if you’ve played in a non friendly game, even if for a minute.
    One interesting move they have made for the Rugby League WC is to allow players who aren't selected for a top tier nation, to be selected by a 2nd tier one, regardless of previous playing history (obviously given they are eligible obviously). This has allowed some minor nations to effectively recapture players who have fallen out of favour or are slightly past their peak.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955
    welshowl said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    Except in rugby once you’ve played for country x (past a certain age 18 or 20 depending I think) that’s it. Ditto I think in footy if you’ve played in a non friendly game, even if for a minute.
    Of course you are right. Nonetheless, the temptation will be, as it has been for Pacific Islanders in NZ, and Australia to a lesser extent, as well as for S Africans in Europe, to wait and see if they can qualify for, and be selected for a more lucrative nation. Revenue sharing would help with this.
    But it is galling to hear NZ whinging.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Of course it can, the internet is universally accessible now.
    A whole ton of government business can only be conducted online now including for national frontiers such as Advance Passenger Information (API).
    Last time I flew to Canada which I do regularly I was told I couldn't board the flight as they now require you to apply for Electronic Travel Authorisation (ETA) which again has to be one on their website. That is a new requirement that had not been required in the past but is now and as we were already at the airport ready to board we had to complete the form using PCs at Manchester Airport.

    It would help if the internet actually worked. It has collapsed several times this week. All right for pampered metropolilitans, of course.

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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    AndyJS said:

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    I'm sure describing Hartlepool as a timewarp will be an excellent way to diminish the UKIP vote there. Or perhaps not.
    And, who the f**k cares !
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,955

    welshowl said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    Except in rugby once you’ve played for country x (past a certain age 18 or 20 depending I think) that’s it. Ditto I think in footy if you’ve played in a non friendly game, even if for a minute.
    One interesting move they have made for the Rugby League WC is to allow players who aren't selected for a top tier nation, to be selected by a 2nd tier one, regardless of previous playing history (obviously given they are eligible obviously). This has allowed some minor nations to effectively recapture players who have fallen out of favour or are slightly past their peak.
    Indeed. And Tonga have a formidable side. Several have rejected NZ or Australia. They are a real threat to make the final. Fiji also have a decent side because of this (although Samoa have been a disappointment).
    Interestingly, RL is not really played on the Pacific Isles, but is the game of choice for Pacific immigrants to NZ.
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Looks like UKIP got the anti Labour Putting Hartlepool First vote
    surbiton said:

    AndyJS said:

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    I'm sure describing Hartlepool as a timewarp will be an excellent way to diminish the UKIP vote there. Or perhaps not.
    And, who the f**k cares !
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    Could Hartlepool become to UKIP what Brighton is to the Greens?
    Hartlepool was one of UKIP's better results this year (I think it was only behind Thurrock?), but still nothing particularly to write home about, only 11%.
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    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Is the Scottish Parliament in recess right now? How does Dugdale have the time to do I'm A Celeb....
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Freggles said:

    Looks like UKIP got the anti Labour Putting Hartlepool First vote


    surbiton said:

    AndyJS said:

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    I'm sure describing Hartlepool as a timewarp will be an excellent way to diminish the UKIP vote there. Or perhaps not.
    And, who the f**k cares !
    UKIPers can go and jump in the North Sea. The good people of Hartlepool [ there are many ] still voted Labour despite all sorts of predictions.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    Support in Northern Ireland for Irish reunification runs at 34% with 10% undecided, according to LucidTalk, up from 4% in 2013. 55% of those under 45 support Irish reunification. I guess as the Northern Irish become less religious and sectarian they identify more clearly as Irish.

    A very elegant essay by Fintan O'Toole in the Irish Times on the absurdity of reintroducing a border you have got rid of.

    I am not convinced the UK line of "it's very difficult so lets come up with a couple of platitudes and not bother to find a solution" is going to be enough.

    55% of Northern Irish want to remain in the UK on those figures, 34% to leave.

    Over 45s back staying in the UK by a comfortable majority of 60% to 29% with 10% undecided, under 45s are split almost evenly 44% to remain in the UK, 46% to join the Republic of Ireland and 9% undecided, so I don't think you got your figures quite right there.
    http://lucidtalk.co.uk/images/News/LTOct17TrackerPoll-GeneralReport.pdf
    Over 45's tend to die before under 45's. Ireland will be ONE soon!
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    kle4 said:

    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.

    No need to panic! David Davis is in charge of negotiations, and as he so presciently said in May last year:

    "...after Brexit, the pressures on the countries that make up the EU will be different.
    Free trade with Britain is in all their interests.
    This is particularly true of the most powerful leader in Europe, Angela Merkel.
    Her economy is dependent on exports, particularly of manufacturers, and especially of cars. Britain is the second largest and fastest growing car market in Europe.
    Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and Volkswagen alone are over 25% of the British market, with the UK buying one million cars from Germany every year.
    They cannot afford the threat being levelled at Britain, so called "WTO terms", because they would involve a 10% levy on all car imports.
    A German Chancellor would have to avoid this, particularly in an election year. In Europe, what a German Chancellor wants, a German Chancellor generally gets."


    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/david-davis/eu-referendum-brexit-economy_b_10141932.html

    They need us more than we need them Captain Mainwaring!
    I don't think he was wrong. Put simply, all that has changed is that the EU have decided that they can get what they want by ganging up because they don't believe that we will walk away without a deal - so it is probably true that Merkel knows she does not want WTO but right now she thinks she will not have to. Merkel thinks she will get her money and give us a crap trade deal which gives her tariff free access to our markets but does not give us access to services.

    The way to test this is to be prepared to walk away, and in fact I think that is exactly what now needs to happen. If it was clear that we would indeed go WTO, I think they will cave. It is the remainers who have undermined our negotiating position.
    Its the consequence of decades of posturing and then surrendering by British governments.

    They assume the same thing will happen this time as well.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    dixiedean said:

    welshowl said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    Except in rugby once you’ve played for country x (past a certain age 18 or 20 depending I think) that’s it. Ditto I think in footy if you’ve played in a non friendly game, even if for a minute.
    Of course you are right. Nonetheless, the temptation will be, as it has been for Pacific Islanders in NZ, and Australia to a lesser extent, as well as for S Africans in Europe, to wait and see if they can qualify for, and be selected for a more lucrative nation. Revenue sharing would help with this.
    But it is galling to hear NZ whinging.
    Agreed
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    Support in Northern Ireland for Irish reunification runs at 34% with 10% undecided, according to LucidTalk, up from 4% in 2013. 55% of those under 45 support Irish reunification. I guess as the Northern Irish become less religious and sectarian they identify more clearly as Irish.

    A very elegant essay by Fintan O'Toole in the Irish Times on the absurdity of reintroducing a border you have got rid of.

    I am not convinced the UK line of "it's very difficult so lets come up with a couple of platitudes and not bother to find a solution" is going to be enough.

    55% of Northern Irish want to remain in the UK on those figures, 34% to leave.

    Over 45s back staying in the UK by a comfortable majority of 60% to 29% with 10% undecided, under 45s are split almost evenly 44% to remain in the UK, 46% to join the Republic of Ireland and 9% undecided, so I don't think you got your figures quite right there.
    http://lucidtalk.co.uk/images/News/LTOct17TrackerPoll-GeneralReport.pdf
    Over 45's tend to die before under 45's. Ireland will be ONE soon!
    The old 'people will retain the same views as they age' gambit? I can see unification happening, but trusting that because old people tend to die more than non old people that it must happen seems unduly confident.
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    Pulpstar said:

    DVLA Thursday, ESA Friday.
    What screw up will Saturday bring ?

    Is there any part of the civil service which is competent ?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2017
    British number one Andy Murray has split with coach Ivan Lendl for a second time by "mutual agreement".

    Idiotia...
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    Could Hartlepool become to UKIP what Brighton is to the Greens?
    I'm sure it can now it's been gentrified.......

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/scenes-chaos-two-women-fight-10320490
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,917
    Danny565 said:

    On topic - a small detail in the Victoria Hartlepool vote is quite remarkable: UKIP's vote up by 13% to 36%. Are they in a bit of a time warp there?

    Could Hartlepool become to UKIP what Brighton is to the Greens?
    Hartlepool was one of UKIP's better results this year (I think it was only behind Thurrock?), but still nothing particularly to write home about, only 11%.
    Hartlepool was an excellent Labour result tbh. Great retention of the general leave vote there
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited November 2017
    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    Support in Northern Ireland for Irish reunification runs at 34% with 10% undecided, according to LucidTalk, up from 4% in 2013. 55% of those under 45 support Irish reunification. I guess as the Northern Irish become less religious and sectarian they identify more clearly as Irish.

    A very elegant essay by Fintan O'Toole in the Irish Times on the absurdity of reintroducing a border you have got rid of.

    I am not convinced the UK line of "it's very difficult so lets come up with a couple of platitudes and not bother to find a solution" is going to be enough.

    55% of Northern Irish want to remain in the UK on those figures, 34% to leave.

    Over 45s back staying in the UK by a comfortable majority of 60% to 29% with 10% undecided, under 45s are split almost evenly 44% to remain in the UK, 46% to join the Republic of Ireland and 9% undecided, so I don't think you got your figures quite right there.
    http://lucidtalk.co.uk/images/News/LTOct17TrackerPoll-GeneralReport.pdf
    Over 45's tend to die before under 45's. Ireland will be ONE soon!
    Except given UK average life expectancy is 81 it will be 2053 before almost all over 45s have died out and even then a majority of under 45s do not back joining the Republic of Ireland, in fact more want to stay in the UK or are undecided than actually want to join the Republic. A clear majority of over 45s on the other hand want to stay part of the UK.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    RobD said:
    Yes, he knows his target audience.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,264

    Report via the Express that the air traffic control at the airport the plane and helicopter took off from before their mid air collision was closed due to staff shortages.

    Sounds irrelevant - I doubt they were in controlled airspace.
    Probably - though I am no expert on the subject
    Well it's quite a few years since I was flying but IIRC outside controlled airspace Visual Flight Rules apply - it's down to the pilots not Air Traffic Control. Someone with up to date knowledge will correct me if I am wrong.

    The Telegraph coverage of this incident has been poor, and much of the information they have posted is largely irrelevant.

    As you say, they were almost certainly flying VFR and the location is west of the Luton zone in uncontrolled airspace (I recollect; I don't have my charts with me right now). Both the helicopter and plane departed from Wycombe Air Park, the plane should have departed via the circuit; I flew that way myself a few years back and recollect the airspace is tight in that area which may have led both aircraft to be in the same area, but even if talking to ATC somewhere (which would be normal, London Information the most likely) they would have been responsible for their own traffic separation on a "see and avoid" basis. If they were both talking to London Info they would probably get a warning of another aircraft in the vicinity, but it is quite possible the helicopter (on the assumption it is less likely to have been on a VFR-only routing than the Cessna) was on another frequency talking to someone else. Today's conditions were perfect for visibility and it is sad that this collision has led to such loss of life.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,331
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    I thought we were members with full rights and responsibilities until the moment we left?
    I am rapidly approaching the "go f*ck yourselves, then" stage.
    That is probably not a good attitude for either side moving forward, however it is notable to me that for all absolute scorn is poured on the UK for 'not getting' the EU mindset and politics, they don't really seem to get ours either. And before someone suggests they don't need to care about getting ours because they are so much stronger than us, clearly it would be better if they did, for one because better understanding is better for everyone, and for another because we are told they don't want no deal either, and inadvertently pushing us toward it does not help them get what they want. And no that does not mean I think they should bow to any and all of our demands.
    Do we have an agreed mindset and politics, though? Even within the Cabinet or the Parliamentary Conservative Party?
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    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,734
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,264
    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    Support in Northern Ireland for Irish reunification runs at 34% with 10% undecided, according to LucidTalk, up from 4% in 2013. 55% of those under 45 support Irish reunification. I guess as the Northern Irish become less religious and sectarian they identify more clearly as Irish.

    A very elegant essay by Fintan O'Toole in the Irish Times on the absurdity of reintroducing a border you have got rid of.

    I am not convinced the UK line of "it's very difficult so lets come up with a couple of platitudes and not bother to find a solution" is going to be enough.

    55% of Northern Irish want to remain in the UK on those figures, 34% to leave.

    Over 45s back staying in the UK by a comfortable majority of 60% to 29% with 10% undecided, under 45s are split almost evenly 44% to remain in the UK, 46% to join the Republic of Ireland and 9% undecided, so I don't think you got your figures quite right there.
    http://lucidtalk.co.uk/images/News/LTOct17TrackerPoll-GeneralReport.pdf
    Over 45's tend to die before under 45's. Ireland will be ONE soon!
    Except given UK average life expectancy is 81 it will be 2053 before almost all over 45s have died out and even then a majority of under 45s do not back joining the Republic of Ireland, in fact more want to stay in the UK or are undecided than actually want to join the Republic. A clear majority of over 45s on the other hand want to stay part of the UK.
    Isn't the issue that the nationalist community has a higher birth rate than the unionist one, and hence there is a skew in age distribution between the communities and the former is expanding at the expense of the latter? Rather than just another correlation between voting behaviour and age as in the rest of UK,
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,986
    edited November 2017
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    surbiton said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    Support in Northern Ireland for Irish reunification runs at 34% with 10% undecided, according to LucidTalk, up from 4% in 2013. 55% of those under 45 support Irish reunification. I guess as the Northern Irish become less religious and sectarian they identify more clearly as Irish.

    A very elegant essay by Fintan O'Toole in the Irish Times on the absurdity of reintroducing a border you have got rid of.

    I am not convinced the UK line of "it's very difficult so lets come up with a couple of platitudes and not bother to find a solution" is going to be enough.

    55% of Northern Irish want to remain in the UK on those figures, 34% to leave.

    Over 45s back staying in the UK by a comfortable majority of 60% to 29% with 10% undecided, under 45s are split almost evenly 44% to remain in the UK, 46% to join the Republic of Ireland and 9% undecided, so I don't think you got your figures quite right there.
    http://lucidtalk.co.uk/images/News/LTOct17TrackerPoll-GeneralReport.pdf
    Over 45's tend to die before under 45's. Ireland will be ONE soon!
    Except given UK average life expectancy is 81 it will be 2053 before almost all over 45s have died out and even then a majority of under 45s do not back joining the Republic of Ireland, in fact more want to stay in the UK or are undecided than actually want to join the Republic. A clear majority of over 45s on the other hand want to stay part of the UK.
    Isn't the issue that the nationalist community has a higher birth rate than the unionist one, and hence there is a skew in age distribution between the communities and the former is expanding at the expense of the latter? Rather than just another correlation between voting behaviour and age as in the rest of UK,
    A marginal one at most maybe but even then 15% of Catholics in NI want to stay in the UK but only 4% of Protestants in NI want to join the Republic of Ireland.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_P said:
    Does the EU really want to start a "withholding money" war.....?

    Trouble is its a dumb headline for exactly the same reason the £350 million was dumb. The 'rebate' is nothing of the sort. We do not give them the money and they do not give it back to us. The value us calculated before any monies are paid and the amount is subtracted from the money we then give to Brussels. They cannot withhold it becausee they never get it.
    I suspect it is more that they are plotting to ignore the rebate in calculating the claimed future liability the uk has
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Appears England rugby union team doesn’t have enough Southern Hemisphere born players...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2017/11/17/blacks-fury-brad-shields-turns-call-up-defects-england/

    All Blacks never been known for poaching players. Oh no.
    RU does need to sort out residency eligibility but, parental qualification exists in every sport.
    I believe they are changing the residency rules to 5 years.
    Still short. 10 is necessary to keep/make tier 2 countries competitive. But a step forward nonetheless. Football World Cup would look very different with 5 year eligibility. Messi for Spain, Aguero for England, etc,
    Errr, football residency qualification was 2 years until recently.
This discussion has been closed.