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  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    kyf_100 said:

    dixiedean said:



    That's the point though isn't it? Momentum didn't HIRE anyone. Therefore they can't be poached for a higher salary.
    It was done for free.
    If you are hired by CCHQ, you work for CCHQ, and are controlled, directed and at the whim of CCHQ.
    And if CCHQ are running a crap campaign, then it doesn't matter how good you are.

    That's my point - instead of engaging a mega-expensive ad agency who probably laugh at them behind their backs, the Tories should seek out a few kids who are already sympathetic to their cause and motivated enough to create fan pages like these. Then, give them the money and technical support to produce higher quality content.

    You think the Momentum stuff is paid for by farts and thin air? They are committed volunteers, but there is money behind it.
    OK then. I agree with that. Can the top-down Conservative Party allow that though? Their record with youth sections is not great. See activ8 for the most recent example.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017
    kyf_100 said:

    dixiedean said:



    That's the point though isn't it? Momentum didn't HIRE anyone. Therefore they can't be poached for a higher salary.
    It was done for free.
    If you are hired by CCHQ, you work for CCHQ, and are controlled, directed and at the whim of CCHQ.
    And if CCHQ are running a crap campaign, then it doesn't matter how good you are.

    That's my point - instead of engaging a mega-expensive ad agency who probably laugh at them behind their backs, the Tories should seek out a few kids who are already sympathetic to their cause and motivated enough to create fan pages like these. Then, give them the money and technical support to produce higher quality content.

    You think the Momentum stuff is paid for by farts and thin air? They are committed volunteers, but there is money behind it.
    The Tories now have Activate, the centre right version of Momentum
    https://twitter.com/ActivateBritain
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited November 2017
    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    We are assured that the wise, all seeing, British public are entirely clear about their intentions, even in close results.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    We are assured that the wise, all seeing British public are entirely clear about their intentions, even in close results.
    Well that was always bollocks, and the efforts to push certain paths as the only option which truly represented the will on a very basic question was also just politics.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    Sunday paper headlines are bland - no sex or tax haven scandals

    In fact not much on the budget other than speculation

    Makes a change

    apparently spreadsheet Phil has written in the sun about the budget making the uk a good place to develop self driving vehicles...I am not sure he has thought through the message with the readership demographics.
    They were tested in Coventry yesterday. Another disappearing reasonably-paid job for those with few qualifications or skills?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
    The non-Corbynites seem a beaten lot - what might give them sufficient strength to challenge him again? (by challenge I don't necessarily mean to the extent of a leadership challenge, just to push back against his clique enough that the party has visible chaos)
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under 60.

    The point is that labour are winning the under 30's more convincingly, and, whatsmore, now they are 'woke' they are turning out to campaign to 'unseat' the tories.

    The other point, is that the conservatives are no longer the 'sensible' party that people turn to post age 30. The conservatives own the chaos they unleashed by Brexit. Denying the lower middle class their dreams of owning an audi and a detached house near a good school. All hogged by property owning retirees and their position defended by the conservative party.

    As someone who has studied socialism for many years I am unlikely to vote for the labour party in any general election , but I think I can see what is going on, and it isn't good at all for the conservatives. Denial is no good.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under 60.

    The point is that labour are winning the under 30's more convincingly, and, whatsmore, now they are 'woke' they are turning out to campaign to 'unseat' the tories.

    The other point, is that the conservatives are no longer the 'sensible' party that people turn to post age 30. The conservatives own the chaos they unleashed by Brexit. Denying the lower middle class their dreams of owning an audi and a detached house near a good school. All hogged by property owning retirees and their position defended by the conservative party.

    As someone who has studied socialism for many years I am unlikely to vote for the labour party in any general election , but I think I can see what is going on, and it isn't good at all for the conservatives. Denial is no good.


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who determine elections, even Ed Miliband won under 30s, even William Hague won over 60s.

    Of course it was 52% of the electorate who voted for Brexit when even Cameron opposed it, so your point on that is irrelevant especially given even Corbyn backs Brexit now. If anything Brexit will reduce demand for housing by reducing immigration, thus easing the pressure on supply (though it looks like Hammond is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
    The non-Corbynites seem a beaten lot - what might give them sufficient strength to challenge him again? (by challenge I don't necessarily mean to the extent of a leadership challenge, just to push back against his clique enough that the party has visible chaos)
    Jezza is safe until after the next GE, and if he wins that one then 5 more years.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
    The non-Corbynites seem a beaten lot - what might give them sufficient strength to challenge him again? (by challenge I don't necessarily mean to the extent of a leadership challenge, just to push back against his clique enough that the party has visible chaos)
    The non-Corbynites still encompass the cadre of pushy, careerist politicians - who are not going to get advancement under Corbyn/Momentum. They either have to sit in silence and wait for Brexit to break their way. Which is still highly questionable - but will see a strengthened Corbyn/Momentum if it does. Then they see Labour likely to present another election-losing Manifesto. Do they sit on their hands? I doubt it. They'll have nothing to lose by then.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
    The non-Corbynites seem a beaten lot - what might give them sufficient strength to challenge him again? (by challenge I don't necessarily mean to the extent of a leadership challenge, just to push back against his clique enough that the party has visible chaos)
    The non-Corbynites still encompass the cadre of pushy, careerist politicians - who are not going to get advancement under Corbyn/Momentum. They either have to sit in silence and wait for Brexit to break their way. Which is still highly questionable - but will see a strengthened Corbyn/Momentum if it does. Then they see Labour likely to present another election-losing Manifesto. Do they sit on their hands? I doubt it. They'll have nothing to lose by then.
    They didn't act when they thought they were going to lose big this year, why on earth would they have the courage to act when for one the climate may be even more hostile to the Tories, and so even if the manifesto is the same as this one (which did lose, even if the Tories went backwards) it may well play even better than this year?
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under 60.

    The point is that labour are winning the under 30's more convincingly, and, whatsmore, now they are 'woke' they are turning out to campaign to 'unseat' the tories.

    The other point, is that the conservatives are no longer the 'sensible' party that people turn to post age 30. The conservatives own the chaos they unleashed by Brexit. Denying the lower middle class their dreams of owning an audi and a detached house near a good school. All hogged by property owning retirees and their position defended by the conservative party.

    As someone who has studied socialism for many years I am unlikely to vote for the labour party in any general election , but I think I can see what is going on, and it isn't good at all for the conservatives. Denial is no good.


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who determine elections, even Ed Miliband won under 30s, even William Hague won over 60s.

    Of course it was 52% of the electorate who voted for Brexit when even Cameron opposed it, so your point on that is irrelevant especially given even Corbyn backs Brexit now. If anything Brexit will reduce demand for housing by reducing immigration, thus easing the pressure on supply (though it looks like Hammond is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting apathetic pensioners. That is the existential problem that you have to overcome. No good shooting me, im just the messenger. And attempts to liberalise the planning laws (in place of £££ to invest in housebuilding) to build housing in the Countryside will not change this, it will only alienate the base.
  • Former mistress of Nigel Farage reveals she was one of THREE lovers to rush to his bedside after he escaped death in horror plane crash

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5096433/Nigel-Farage-s-mistress-reveals-three-helped-crash.html

    I bet Naughty nige had some explaining to do!

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    edited November 2017
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
    The non-Corbynites seem a beaten lot - what might give them sufficient strength to challenge him again? (by challenge I don't necessarily mean to the extent of a leadership challenge, just to push back against his clique enough that the party has visible chaos)
    The non-Corbynites still encompass the cadre of pushy, careerist politicians - who are not going to get advancement under Corbyn/Momentum. They either have to sit in silence and wait for Brexit to break their way. Which is still highly questionable - but will see a strengthened Corbyn/Momentum if it does. Then they see Labour likely to present another election-losing Manifesto. Do they sit on their hands? I doubt it. They'll have nothing to lose by then.
    They didn't act when they thought they were going to lose big this year, why on earth would they have the courage to act when for one the climate may be even more hostile to the Tories, and so even if the manifesto is the same as this one (which did lose, even if the Tories went backwards) it may well play even better than this year?
    But ultimately, 2017 WAS a losing Manifesto. That same/similar Manifesto will get far more forensic examination next time. (And being cynical, some of those elements that were popular are likely to be plundered/blunted by the Tories in the meantime, leaving what's left looking even less appealing.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting apathetic pensioners. That is the existential problem that you have to overcome. No good shooting me, im just the messenger. And attempts to liberalise the planning laws (in place of £££ to invest in housebuilding) to build housing in the Countryside will not change this, it will only alienate the base.
    Where on earth did you get that from? Even a majority of Labour seats voted Leave, 10 highly motivated Labour supporting Remainers in safe Labour inner city seats are certainly not worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting pensioners in the provinces, especially when the oldest voters are not apathetic but have the highest rate of turnout.

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
    The non-Corbynites seem a beaten lot - what might give them sufficient strength to challenge him again? (by challenge I don't necessarily mean to the extent of a leadership challenge, just to push back against his clique enough that the party has visible chaos)
    The non-Corbynites still encompass the cadre of pushy, careerist politicians - who are not going to get advancement under Corbyn/Momentum. They either have to sit in silence and wait for Brexit to break their way. Which is still highly questionable - but will see a strengthened Corbyn/Momentum if it does. Then they see Labour likely to present another election-losing Manifesto. Do they sit on their hands? I doubt it. They'll have nothing to lose by then.
    They didn't act when they thought they were going to lose big this year, why on earth would they have the courage to act when for one the climate may be even more hostile to the Tories, and so even if the manifesto is the same as this one (which did lose, even if the Tories went backwards) it may well play even better than this year?
    They aren't going to act because they have been completely humiliated and beaten.
    They are now pointless, historic relics.
  • Harvey Weinstein had secret hitlist of names to quash sex scandal

    Producer hired team to investigate 91 film industry figures in attempt to stop harassment claims going public

    https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/nov/18/harvey-weinstein-secret-hitlist-sex-scandal
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting apathetic pensioners. That is the existential problem that you have to overcome. No good shooting me, im just the messenger. And attempts to liberalise the planning laws (in place of £££ to invest in housebuilding) to build housing in the Countryside will not change this, it will only alienate the base.
    Where on earth did you get that from? Even a majority of Labour seats voted Leave, 10 highly motivated Labour supporting Remainers in safe Labour inner city seats are certainly not worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting pensioners in the provinces, especially when the oldest voters are not apathetic but have the highest rate of turnout.

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing what is going on. Owen Jones is leading hundreds of Labour activists in to places like Chingford, Uxbridge on Weekend afternoons. Facebook: Momentum. Check it out.
    (Edit) no equivalent outflux of conservative retirees campaigning in labour safe seats.

    The planning question is a very interesting one. We will have to wait and see what happens in the budget. A lot of promises/noise about housebuilding but apparently no money and the word is that planning will come under focus again.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .
    Where on earth did you get that from? Even a majority of Labour seats voted Leave, 10 highly motivated Labour supporting Remainers in safe Labour inner city seats are certainly not worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting pensioners in the provinces, especially when the oldest voters are not apathetic but have the highest rate of turnout.

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing what is going on. Owen Jones is leading hundreds of Labour activists in to places like Chingford, Uxbridge on Weekend afternoons. Facebook: Momentum. Check it out.

    The planning question is a very interesting one. We will have to wait and see what happens in the budget. A lot of promises/noise about housebuilding but apparently no money and the word is that planning will come under focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of difference that is making in the current polls which are almost neck and neck. Most voters in Chingford and Uxbridge are small c suburban conservatives, they are not going to be impressed by Owen Jones and Momentum (for the record I know local Epping Forest Tories who have also been to Chingford to support IDS so it is not all one-way traffic anyway).

    On planning I expect clear announcements in the Budget.
  • I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    I still don't understand why the LDs are so low, and why their former supporters would be attracted by Corbyn and McDonnell.

    I am certain that Corbyn and more so McDonnell will not take labour to government. Indeed they are the brake holding back labour who should be out of sight in the polls
    I marvel at your certitude in the face of 'how the hell can we know?'

    Now if you had said "I am strongly of the opinion that...." I'd have said fair enough.

    :lol:
    Fair comment but nothing can convince me a hard left labour party will gain power sufficient to enact their socialist nonsense. I remember Kinnock driving them out of labour and if he rejected them how can any moderate labour supporter not see the direct threat to the UK of a marxist/ trade union cabal in no 10
    Just out of interest, what part of the Labour manifest do you think is 'socialist nonsense' or 'marxist' Big_G?
    Large scale nationalisation, unfetered spending on public sector with huge promises on pay, exchange controls, large corporate tax increases, over spending by 500 billion, unions in no 10, as a stsrter
    Sorry Big_G you've been reading too much Daily Mail...

    "Large scale nationalisation" The mainfesto proposes re-nationalising Rail, Energy, Water and Royal Mail. Half of those were in public ownership at the end of Thatcher's premiership. It's hardly large-scale compared with, say, post-war Britain.

    "unfetered spending on public sector with huge promises on pay," Labour committed to ending the public sector pay cap, nothing else. Given the Tories are looking for a face-saving way to drop the cap, it hardly counts as marxist or hard-left.

    "exchange controls" Nope, sorry, I can't see anything in there about exchange controls - you'll have to point me to it.

    "large corporate tax increases" You mean returning it to 26% which is less than it was in 2010 and less than it is in the USA, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Australia, India etc. etc.

    "over spending by 500 billion" As opposed to the £700bn the Tories have added to the national debt since 2010? Labour's manifesto was fully costed, which is more than the Tories bothered to do.

    "unions in no 10, as a stsrter" Nothing in the manifesto about this.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Agreed. They should stick to social media :lol:
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2017

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    I wouldn’t know, as I am not one of those either nor do I want to be bothered by them when there is no upcoming election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing what is going on. Owen Jones is leading hundreds of Labour activists in to places like Chingford, Uxbridge on Weekend afternoons. Facebook: Momentum. Check it out.

    The planning question is a very interesting one. We will have to wait and see what happens in the budget. A lot of promises/noise about housebuilding but apparently no money and the word is that planning will come under focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of difference that is making in the current polls which are almost neck and neck. Most voters in Chingford and Uxbridge are small c suburban conservatives, they are not going to be impressed by Owen Jones and Momentum (for the record I know local Epping Forest Tories who have also been to Chingford to support IDS so it is not all one-way traffic anyway).

    On planning I expect clear announcements in the Budget.
    Can't you see the problem. The small c conservatives are quitting London and moving to safe seats further out in Essex and Hertfordshire, amongst other places. They are being replaced by labour voters who rent and commute in to London every day. I don't know what tactics Momentum are playing, but the demographics are on their side, and they just need to get out the vote.




  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2017
    edit
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2017
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under 60.

    The point is that labour are winning the under 30's more convincingly, and, whatsmore, now they are 'woke' they are turning out to campaign to 'unseat' the tories.

    As someone who has studied socialism for many years I am unlikely to vote for the labour party in any general election , but I think I can see what is going on, and it isn't good at all for the conservatives. Denial is no good.


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who determine elections, even Ed Miliband won under 30s, even William Hague won over 60s.

    Of course it was 52% of the electorate who voted for Brexit when even Cameron opposed it, so your point on that is irrelevant especially given even Corbyn backs Brexit now. If anything Brexit will reduce demand for housing by reducing immigration, thus easing the pressure on supply (though it looks like Hammond is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting apathetic pensioners. That is the existential problem that you have to overcome. No good shooting me, im just the messenger. And attempts to liberalise the planning laws (in place of £££ to invest in housebuilding) to build housing in the Countryside will not change this, it will only alienate the base.
    Pensioners are usually the very opposite of apathetic when it comes to voting. It's true they were slightly less enthusiastic than usual at the last general election, but that may have been because they believed the mainstream media when they reported that the election was a foregone conclusion.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840



    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).


    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    Where on earth did you get that from? Even a majority of Labour seats voted Leave, 10 highly motivated Labour supporting Remainers in safe Labour inner city seats are certainly not worth more in political terms than a hundred geriatric Brexit voting pensioners in the provinces, especially when the oldest voters are not apathetic but have the highest rate of turnout.

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.

    You obviously aren't seeing what is going on. Owen Jones is leading hundreds of Labour activists in to places like Chingford, Uxbridge on Weekend afternoons. Facebook: Momentum. Check it out.

    The planning question is a very interesting one. We will have to wait and see what happens in the budget. A lot of promises/noise about housebuilding but apparently no money and the word is that planning will come under focus again.



    So what? Fat lot of difference that is making in the current polls which are almost neck and neck. Most voters in Chingford and Uxbridge are small c suburban conservatives, they are not going to be impressed by Owen Jones and Momentum (for the record I know local Epping Forest Tories who have also been to Chingford to support IDS so it is not all one-way traffic anyway).

    On planning I expect clear announcements in the Budget.

    @dixiedean

    tbf, I was very impressed with Sajid Javid's speech the other day. I do not share your unbridled confidence however in action. But I hope to be proved wrong.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    stevef said:

    kle4 said:

    Pong said:

    stevef said:

    Again just a 2 point lead for Labour (compared to the 12 points lead by Miliband).If Labour cant be way ahead now it never will be. It all points to disaster for Corbyn in 2022

    It points to another hung parliament
    When will the british public stop being so bloody confused?!
    If Miliband's 12 point lead led to a Tory majority, what does Corbyn's 2 point lead suggest will happen.?

    Not necessarily a good result, admittedly. However I am predicting the lead to rise in the face of bad news and continued Tory chaos in the coming years, and until we know who will lead them into the next GE and how, it will be even harder to predict how they will do up against Corbyn or a Corbynesque fresh face. They might perform better than Ed M, even if they never get the same lead in opposition, if they can rise in the right places.
    There's still plenty of Labour chaos in the coming years too. It is not a happy family.
    The non-Corbynites seem a beaten lot - what might give them sufficient strength to challenge him again? (by challenge I don't necessarily mean to the extent of a leadership challenge, just to push back against his clique enough that the party has visible chaos)
    The non-eir way. Which is still highly questionable - but will see a strengthened Corbyn/Momentum if it does. Then they see Labour likely to present another election-losing Manifesto. Do they sit on their hands? I doubt it. They'll have nothing to lose by then.
    They didn't act when they thought they were going to lose big this year, why on earth would they have the courage to act when for one the climate may be even more hostile to the Tories, and so even if the manifesto is the same as this one (which did lose, even if the Tories went backwards) it may well play even better than this year?
    But ultimately, 2017 WAS a losing Manifesto. That same/similar Manifesto will get far more forensic examination next time. (And being cynical, some of those elements that were popular are likely to be plundered/blunted by the Tories in the meantime, leaving what's left looking even less appealing.)
    I think you're being a bit hopeful there. Currently the Tories are still holding level, if they drop support in the face of Brexit going wrong or a recession, people will be willing to give more of a chance to Labour as the only alternative.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of announcements in the Budget.
    Can't you see the problem. The small c conservatives are quitting London and moving to safe seats further out in Essex and Hertfordshire, amongst other places. They are being replaced by labour voters who rent and commute in to London every day. I don't know what tactics Momentum are playing, but the demographics are on their side, and they just need to get out the vote.




    'Safe' seats like Braintree, Stevenage, Thurrock, Harlow, St Albans, Welwyn Hatfield, Clacton etc all won by Blair but now with Tory MPs?

    These 'Labour' voters of course still did not prevent Chingford and Uxbridge keeping Tory MPs and voting against Corbyn in June either. Momentum got out the vote in June and still lost. Until they convince enough Middle England voters Labour will not win an overall majority.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of announcements in the Budget.
    Can't you see the problem. The small c conservatives are quitting London and moving to safe seats further out in Essex and Hertfordshire, amongst other places. They are being replaced by labour voters who rent and commute in to London every day. I don't know what tactics Momentum are playing, but the demographics are on their side, and they just need to get out the vote.




    'Safe' seats like Braintree, Stevenage, Thurrock, Harlow, St Albans, Welwyn Hatfield, Clacton etc all won by Blair but now with Tory MPs?

    These 'Labour' voters of course still did not prevent Chingford and Uxbridge keeping Tory MPs and voting against Corbyn in June either. Momentum got out the vote in June and still lost. Until they convince enough Middle England voters Labour will not win an overall majority.
    Chingford is going to be Labour within 10 years if current trends continue.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    nt.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing what is going on. Owen Jones is leading hundreds of Labour activists in to places like Chingford, Uxbridge on Weekend afternoons. Facebook: Momentum. Check it out.

    The planning question is a very interesting one. We will have to wait and see what happens in the budget. A lot of promises/noise about housebuilding but apparently no money and the word is that planning will come under focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of difference that is making in the current polls which are almost neck and neck. Most voters in Chingford and Uxbridge are small c suburban conservatives, they are not going to be impressed by Owen Jones and Momentum (for the record I know local Epping Forest Tories who have also been to Chingford to support IDS so it is not all one-way traffic anyway).

    On planning I expect clear announcements in the Budget.
    Can't you see the problem. The small c conservatives are quitting London and moving to safe seats further out in Essex and Hertfordshire, amongst other places. They are being replaced by labour voters who rent and commute in to London every day. I don't know what tactics Momentum are playing, but the demographics are on their side, and they just need to get out the vote.




    Demographic change has always been with us. Time was that there were Labour seats in rural East Anglia and Scotland was majority Tory. It's a swings and roundabouts thing. There's every chance that Corbynism is just a bubble, and by 2022 there will be some new craze.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of announcements in the Budget.
    Can't you see the problem. The small c conservatives are quitting London and moving to safe seats further out in Essex and Hertfordshire, amongst other places. They are being replaced by labour voters who rent and commute in to London every day. I don't know what tactics Momentum are playing, but the demographics are on their side, and they just need to get out the vote.




    'Safe' seats like Braintree, Stevenage, Thurrock, Harlow, St Albans, Welwyn Hatfield, Clacton etc all won by Blair but now with Tory MPs?

    These 'Labour' voters of course still did not prevent Chingford and Uxbridge keeping Tory MPs and voting against Corbyn in June either. Momentum got out the vote in June and still lost. Until they convince enough Middle England voters Labour will not win an overall majority.
    PM Jezza is just another Tory campaign away. Every shot a shot in their own foot, mostly while still in their mouths...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    While I think Labour are very well placed to win next time if they play their cards right, the idea Tories campaigning must equal lost votes only works as a joke. If serious the idea that because that happened at the GE means it must happen every time because Tory campaigning loses them support is the very height of hubris. What if they campaign better, with a better leader, what if Labour's campaign is not as fresh and exciting, what if some of the things they implied do not work as well. There's any number of things that could happen.

    As a LD I'd think you'd be more concerned about where the LDs will target for effective campaigning next time if Labour campaigns will from now on always work so well and improve on next time.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of announcements in the Budget.
    Can't you



    'Safe' seats like Braintree, Stevenage, Thurrock, Harlow, St Albans, Welwyn Hatfield, Clacton etc all won by Blair but now with Tory MPs?

    These 'Labour' voters of course still did not prevent Chingford and Uxbridge keeping Tory MPs and voting against Corbyn in June either. Momentum got out the vote in June and still lost. Until they convince enough Middle England voters Labour will not win an overall majority.
    Chingford is going to be Labour within 10 years if current trends continue.
    10 years is not early enough for Corbyn, he needs it to turn Labour within 5 years to win an overall majority at the next general election.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of announcements in the Budget.
    Can't you see the problem. The small c conservatives are quitting London and moving to safe seats further out in Essex and Hertfordshire, amongst other places. They are being replaced by labour voters who rent and commute in to London every day. I don't know what tactics Momentum are playing, but the demographics are on their side, and they just need to get out the vote.




    'Safe' they convince enough Middle England voters Labour will not win an overall majority.
    PM Jezza is just another Tory campaign away. Every shot a shot in their own foot, mostly while still in their mouths...
    'PM' Jezza on current polling (even Survation) heading to be a PM with one of the weakest mandates in decades at best and still far from an overall majority.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    HYUFD said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Except even Ed Miliband won under 30s, it is under 60s Labour really need to win over not under 30s.
    Er under 30's are still under


    Yes but it is 30s to 60s who is going to push a big housebuilding agenda anyway).
    Unfortunately for the tories, ten highly motivated labour supporting remainers, are worth more .

    May is focused on building in brownfield areas, wasteland, urban areas, even gardens first rather than greenbelt and most Tory voters will still prefer that to Corbyn's building over everywhere, even if a few protest by voting LD at local elections they will still likely vote Tory at general elections.
    You obviously aren't seeing focus again.

    So what? Fat lot of announcements in the Budget.





    'Safe' seats like Braintree, Stevenage, Thurrock, Harlow, St Albans, Welwyn Hatfield, Clacton etc all won by Blair but now with Tory MPs?

    These 'Labour' voters of course still did not prevent Chingford and Uxbridge keeping Tory MPs and voting against Corbyn in June either. Momentum got out the vote in June and still lost. Until they convince enough Middle England voters Labour will not win an overall majority.
    PM Jezza is just another Tory campaign away. Every shot a shot in their own foot, mostly while still in their mouths...
    One of the biggest questions is whether a lot of Tory voters stayed at home last time because (a) they thought May was going to win easily and (b) they were unimpressed by her campaign. They won't stay at home again if so, now that it's clear that Corbyn has a real chance of becoming PM.
  • I am sure Everton or Crystal Palace are good enough for championship let alone the epl.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    AndyJS said:



    One of the biggest questions is whether a lot of Tory voters stayed at home last time because (a) they thought May was going to win easily and (b) they were unimpressed by her campaign. They won't stay at home again if so, now that it's clear that Corbyn has a real chance of becoming PM.

    Given the Tory vote was pretty darn high overall, I think banking on people who stayed home last time returning in fear of Corbyn to be highly risky.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    I am sure Everton or Crystal Palace are good enough for championship let alone the epl.

    Harsh...but maybe fair.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    One of the joys in life is seeing political parties have to reverse their arguments on things when they shift position, and pretend they aren't or ignore what their old views were. We've seen Tories have to defend policies of Ed M they derided, and if Corbyn does become PM with less than a majority I look forward to being told how a coalition or partnership deal is so reasonable and not at all grubby, because it is an anti-Tory majority
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    kle4 said:

    One of the joys in life is seeing political parties have to reverse their arguments on things when they shift position, and pretend they aren't or ignore what their old views were. We've seen Tories have to defend policies of Ed M they derided, and if Corbyn does become PM with less than a majority I look forward to being told how a coalition or partnership deal is so reasonable and not at all grubby, because it is an anti-Tory majority

    Yes, I look forward to the day Corbynistas praise an SNP and/or LD deal with a straight face having castigated the Tory-LD coalition and Tory and DUP deal.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Given the Tories do not have such a lead now, why would you assume a Labour campaign now would lead to the same kind of increase? It has far less room to rise from, unless you believe the Tories are seriously in danger of dropping below the 30% mark next time, or Labour above 50%. Nor do you explain why the Tory and Labour campaigns will have the same effect as last time, when we do not even know what the Tories at least will be offering as one certainty is it won't be the same as last time, and it is highly likely not the same leader either. So why so certain 'the Tories' will be equally inept? It cannot be based on track record, since they targeted support very well to win in 2015.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited November 2017


    One of the biggest questions is whether a lot of Tory voters stayed at home last time because (a) they thought May was going to win easily and (b) they were unimpressed by her campaign. They won't stay at home again if so, now that it's clear that Corbyn has a real chance of becoming PM.

    @dixiedean

    And equally, how many voted for Labour believing a) they couldn't win or b) to restrict the Tory majority to a reasonable level?
    We really will never know.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
    Nah, the Tories will come up with something worse next time.
  • Theresa May is keen to persuade William Hague to become her deputy fearing scandals will claim more scalps

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4945532/desperate-pm-theresa-may-hopes-to-tempt-william-hague-into-deputy-role-to-bolster-crumbling-cabinet/
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    dixiedean said:



    And equally, how many voted for Labour believing a) they couldn't win or b) to restrict the Tory majority to a reasonable level?
    We really will never know.

    Probably more than will now admit it, but many of which, if they exist, may well have been converted by the surprisingly positive result in any case so it hardly matters as they might happily vote that way next time rather than reluctantly.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
    Nah, the Tories will come up with something worse next time.
    Like what? Equally likely the focus will be far more on Corbyn and his tax raising plans.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
    Nah, the Tories will come up with something worse next time.
    Hubris.

    None of these scenarios seem to be encouraging for the LDs expand their support beyond 6-8% btw, and thus the opportunity for more than a handful of gains for a liberal party, but I guess a Corbyn premiership is the basically the same as advancing a distinct, liberal agenda.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2017

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    Give it a rest, this is getting boring now. 2015 Tory campaign was highly effective and Labour was a car crash, 2017 Tory campaign was a car crash and Labour was highly effective.

    We don't even know when the next GE will be, let alone leaders or staffing to even start to consider how good or bad the campaign could potentially be. Who knows even those Lib D...D..them ones that can all fit in a taxi to work might have got their act together.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Don't blame the advisers - if their advice is shit, it's still the fault of the person who made the decision for not spotting it, or listening to someone else.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Don't blame the advisers - if their advice is shit, it's still the fault of the person who made the decision for not spotting it, or listening to someone else.
    May has to take her share of the blame too but again that was not the fault of Tory canvassers.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Canvassing the wrong seats, on the wrong policies, with the wrong manifesto.

    Epic fail. LOL.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    I am sure Everton or Crystal Palace are good enough for championship let alone the epl.

    Man City were awsome today, they are going to win the league at a canter. Quite possibly the CL too.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Canvassing the wrong seats, on the wrong policies, with the wrong manifesto.

    Epic fail. LOL.
    The only point of calling the general election was to gain a bigger majority, so if no Labour seats had been targeted the election might as well have been abandoned from day 1.

    Next time of course the Tories will be mainly defending and focusing resources on their own seats not targeting seats with Labour majorities of 5-15,000 they have virtually no chance of winning as they were in 2017.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Canvassing the wrong seats, on the wrong policies, with the wrong manifesto.

    Epic fail. LOL.
    You really are baffling me I must say. Why this pretense that because the 2017 campaign did poorly it is an immutable law that the next one will be as well? We know perfectly well sometimes parties campaign well and sometimes they don't, pretending otherwise, that not even knowing who the leader's will be (albeit with more likelihood of knowing on the Labour side) or what they will argue for, is just plain silly.

    For one thing, are we expecting these campaigns to take place with Cable in charge of the LDs, or Swinson, or will someone else unexpectedly take the helm? What is to be their pitch (presumably not 'Corbyn is leading a terrible opposition, make the LDs the main opposition' as it was this time), and how might that affect, for instance, Labour trying to seize some marginal Tory seats in the south and midlands? Will it take votes from the Tories more and make Labour's job easier?

    No, instead let's just assume that Labour campaigns always work and Tory campaigns don't, and it will play out just like last time - so Labour to end up with well over 50% and a massive majority.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    I am sure Everton or Crystal Palace are good enough for championship let alone the epl.

    Man City were awsome today, they are going to win the league at a canter. Quite possibly the CL too.
    Indeed. Only one team taken a point from them....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Canvassing the wrong seats, on the wrong policies, with the wrong manifesto.

    Epic fail. LOL.
    You really are baffling me I must say. Why this pretense that because the 2017 campaign did poorly it is an immutable law that the next one will be as well? We know perfectly well sometimes parties campaign well and sometimes they don't, pretending otherwise, that not even knowing who the leader's will be (albeit with more likelihood of knowing on the Labour side) or what they will argue for, is just plain silly.

    For one thing, are we expecting these campaigns to take place with Cable in charge of the LDs, or Swinson, or will someone else unexpectedly take the helm? What is to be their pitch (presumably not 'Corbyn is leading a terrible opposition, make the LDs the main opposition' as it was this time), and how might that affect, for instance, Labour trying to seize some marginal Tory seats in the south and midlands? Will it take votes from the Tories more and make Labour's job easier?

    No, instead let's just assume that Labour campaigns always work and Tory campaigns don't, and it will play out just like last time - so Labour to end up with well over 50% and a massive majority.
    The Tory campaign will be worse than last time, because the party is in a worse state than last time. Incoherent and divided.

    Of course things can change. A year ago the same would have been of Labour, but definite advantage Labour this time.

    Last election I persuaded Mrs Fox and Fox jr to vote LD, but both are Labour now.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    dixiedean said:

    I am sure Everton or Crystal Palace are good enough for championship let alone the epl.

    Man City were awsome today, they are going to win the league at a canter. Quite possibly the CL too.
    Indeed. Only one team taken a point from them....
    We played a very strange formation today. Should have started Okazaki. Puel gave it a go.

    We play them again in the Cup QF. It is hard to see us getting past them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Canvassing the wrong seats, on the wrong policies, with the wrong manifesto.

    Epic fail. LOL.
    You really are baffling me I must say. Why this pretense that because the 2017 campaign did poorly it is an immutable law that the next one will be as well? We know perfectly well sometimes parties campaign well and sometimes they don't, pretending otherwise, that not even knowing who the leader's will be (albeit with more likelihood of knowing on the Labour side) or what they will argue for, is just plain silly.

    For one thing, are we expecting these campaigns to take place with Cable in charge of the LDs, or Swinson, or will someone else unexpectedly take the helm? What is to be their pitch (presumably not 'Corbyn is leading a terrible opposition, make the LDs the main opposition' as it was this time), and how might that affect, for instance, Labour trying to seize some marginal Tory seats in the south and midlands? Will it take votes from the Tories more and make Labour's job easier?

    No, instead let's just assume that Labour campaigns always work and Tory campaigns don't, and it will play out just like last time - so Labour to end up with well over 50% and a massive majority.
    The Tory campaign will be worse than last time, because the party is in a worse state than last time. Incoherent and divided.

    Of course things can change. A year ago the same would have been of Labour, but definite advantage Labour this time.

    Last election I persuaded Mrs Fox and Fox jr to vote LD, but both are Labour now.
    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    All in all was a very curious election. Large swings in different directions in different seats, Party HQ's no idea where to canvass.
    A whole string of seats falling against the tide, Mansfield, Middlesbrough S, for the Cons, but losing Stockton S. and High Peak. Canterbury, Warwick, for Labour. Even the LD's missed some targets and won some surprises.
    Not to mention Scotland.

    Given all that, it is a wonder people are so confident what will happen next time.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017

    kle4 said:



    That would depend, I think, on how many were genuinely centrist (albeit more centre left than right) and how many were mostly in it for the anti-Toryness and Lab was not the main left party previously. Half the party's support evaporated as soon as they went into coalition, so it seems fair to think much of that was the anti-Tory section, and they lost more support due to how things then developed over the next 5 years. With Labour unexpectedly doing well in 2017, there was no need for those who left to come back to the LDs.

    That about sums it up for me.

    What previously bothered me about Corbyn was his perceived ineptitude, not the marxist/Venezuela twaddle spouted by PB tories. But his performance in the GE and the quality of content in the Labour manifesto has swayed me. In fact, I still voted LD in the GE, mainly because I happened to know and like the LD candidate, but if there's an election tomorrow I'll be voting Labour.

    It amuses me how many Tories on PB and elsewhere see Corbyn as a special kind of evil, who will imperil the very survival of the country! Of course you're entitled to your opinions and I know they are often sincerely held but your blind spot with Corbyn, and more importantly the 'for the many,not the few' ethos he espouses will seriously damage the Tories future election prospects imho.
    I am certain that Corbyn and more so McDonnell will not take labour to government. Indeed they are the brake holding back labour who should be out of sight in the polls
    I marvel at your certitude in the face of 'how the hell can we know?'

    Now if you had said "I am strongly of the opinion that...." I'd have said fair enough.

    :lol:
    Fair comment but nothing can convince me a hard left labour party will gain power sufficient to enact their socialist nonsense. I remember Kinnock driving them out of labour and if he rejected them how can any moderate labour supporter not see the direct threat to the UK of a marxist/ trade union cabal in no 10
    Just out of interest, what part of the Labour manifest do you think is 'socialist nonsense' or 'marxist' Big_G?
    Large scale nationalisation, unfetered spending on public sector with huge promises on pay, exchange controls, large corporate tax increases, over spending by 500 billion, unions in no 10, as a stsrter
    There's suddenly something rather menacing about the working class?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLToN2pjik8

    Just look straight ahead, whatever you do. Don't give them any money.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    That's not an issue about campaigning.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited November 2017
    .


    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!


    @dixiedean

    I'm a leftwinger. I don't think victory is assured. The hubris is much less than many Conservatives like to think. It is confined to a few, relatively young, very idealistic, new members. They haven't had years of defeat.
    Equally, I detect amongst some on the Right, an idea that 2017 was an aberration. An accident of circumstance. never to be repeated.
    That is equally delusional.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Pong said:

    kle4 said:



    That would depend, I think, on how many were genuinely centrist (albeit more centre left than right) and how many were mostly in it for the anti-Toryness and Lab was not the main left party previously. Half the party's support evaporated as soon as they went into coalition, so it seems fair to think much of that was the anti-Tory section, and they lost more support due to how things then developed over the next 5 years. With Labour unexpectedly doing well in 2017, there was no need for those who left to come back to the LDs.

    That about sums it up for me.

    What previously bothered me about Corbyn was his perceived ineptitude, not the marxist/Venezuela twaddle spouted by PB tories. But his performance in the GE and the quality of content in the Labour manifesto has swayed me. In fact, I still voted LD in the GE, mainly because I happened to know and like the LD candidate, but if there's an election tomorrow I'll be voting Labour.

    It amuses me how many Tories on PB and elsewhere see Corbyn as a special kind of evil, who will imperil the very survival of the country! Of course you're entitled to your opinions and I know they are often sincerely held but your blind spot with Corbyn, and more importantly the 'for the many,not the few' ethos he espouses will seriously damage the Tories future election prospects imho.
    I am certain that Corbyn and more so McDonnell will not take labour to government. Indeed they are the brake holding back labour who should be out of sight in the polls
    I marvel at your certitude in the face of 'how the hell can we know?'

    Now if you had said "I am strongly of the opinion that...." I'd have said fair enough.

    :lol:
    Fair comment but nothing 10
    Just out of interest, what part of the Labour manifest do you think is 'socialist nonsense' or 'marxist' Big_G?
    Large scale nationalisation, unfetered spending on public sector with huge promises on pay, exchange controls, large corporate tax increases, over spending by 500 billion, unions in no 10, as a stsrter
    There's suddenly something rather menacing about the working class?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLToN2pjik8

    Just look straight ahead, whatever you do. Don't give them any money.
    That would probably be better applied to Remainers, a majority of working class voters voted Leave, a majority of working class voters did not vote for Corbyn.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017
    dixiedean said:

    .


    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!

    @dixiedean

    'I'm a leftwinger. I don't think victory is assured. The hubris is much less than many Conservatives like to think. It is confined to a few, relatively young, very idealistic, new members. They haven't had years of defeat.
    Equally, I detect amongst some on the Right, an idea that 2017 was an aberration. An accident of circumstance. never to be repeated.
    That is equally delusional.'

    Read twitter, many Corbyn supporters think he is the second coming and heading for an easy victory next time.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Canvassing the wrong seats, on the wrong policies, with the wrong manifesto.

    Epic fail. LOL.
    You really are baffling me I must say. Why this pretense that because the 2017 campaign did poorly it is an immutable law that the next one will be as well? We know perfectly well sometimes parties campaign well and sometimes they don't, pretending otherwise, that not even knowing who the leader's will be (albeit with more likelihood of knowing on the Labour side) or what they will argue for, is just plain silly.

    For one thing, are we expecting these campaigns to take place with Cable in charge of the LDs, or Swinson, or will someone else unexpectedly take the helm? What is to be their pitch (presumably not 'Corbyn is leading a terrible opposition, make the LDs the main opposition' as it was this time), and how might that affect, for instance, Labour trying to seize some marginal Tory seats in the south and midlands? Will it take votes from the Tories more and make Labour's job easier?

    No, instead let's just assume that Labour campaigns always work and Tory campaigns don't, and it will play out just like last time - so Labour to end up with well over 50% and a massive majority.
    The Tory campaign will be worse than last time, because the party is in a worse state than last time. Incoherent and divided.

    Of course things can change. A year ago the same would have been of Labour, but definite advantage Labour this time.

    Last election I persuaded Mrs Fox and Fox jr to vote LD, but both are Labour now.
    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!
    It is you that has the hubris, convinced that chucking a few sweeties to the kids will buy them off.

    The Tories are simply not going to be able to win on left wing populism.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    Yeah, we're really shit at campaigning. We only turned Torbay from a majority of 3,286 in 2015 to 14,283 in 2017......
    Lost a majority, along with their marbles!
    It was not Tory canvassers who lost the Tories their majority, it was Nick Timothy's suicidal manifesto
    Canvassing the wrong seats, on the wrong policies, with the wrong manifesto.

    Epic fail. LOL.
    You really are baffling me I must say. Why this pretense that because the 2017 campaign did poorly it is an immutable law that the next one will be as well? We know perfectly well sometimes parties campaign well and sometimes they don't, pretending otherwise, that not even knowing who the leader's will be (albeit with more likelihood of knowing on the Labour side) or what they will argue for, is just plain silly.

    For one thing, are we expecting these campaigns to take place with Cable in charge of the LDs, or Swinson, or will someone else unexpectedly take the helm? What is to be their pitch (presumably not 'Corbyn is leading a terrible opposition, make the LDs the main opposition' as it was this time), and how might that affect, for instance, Labour trying to seize some marginal Tory seats in the south and midlands? Will it take votes from the Tories more and make Labour's job easier?

    No, instead let's just assume that Labour campaigns always work and Tory campaigns don't, and it will play out just like last time - so Labour to end up with well over 50% and a massive majority.
    The Tory Mrs Fox and Fox jr to vote LD, but both are Labour now.
    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!
    It is you that has the hubris, convinced that chucking a few sweeties to the kids will buy them off.

    The Tories are simply not going to be able to win on left wing populism.
    When did I ever say they were? If they do win or at least get most seats it will be on tax primarily and the threat of tax rises under Labour.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,088
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
    It was changing the policy on the second day that really did for them. After weeks of campaigning on strong and stable, they trashed their brand in a moment.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
    It was changing the policy on the second day that really did for them. After weeks of campaigning on strong and stable, they trashed their brand in a moment.
    The policy was inept (apart from raising the assets you could keep to £100k) and had to be reversed, the presentation of the U-turn was bad but including people's homes in liability for personal care costs should never even have been considered.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    .


    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!

    @dixiedean

    'I'm a leftwinger. I don't think victory is assured. The hubris is much less than many Conservatives like to think. It is confined to a few, relatively young, very idealistic, new members. They haven't had years of defeat.
    Equally, I detect amongst some on the Right, an idea that 2017 was an aberration. An accident of circumstance. never to be repeated.
    That is equally delusional.'
    Read twitter, many Corbyn supporters think he is the second coming and heading for an easy victory next time.

    I agree with that. And I am not trying to convince you, of all people, of the wisdom of voting Labour.
    However, my point is that they are a small, noisy minority. Most experienced Labour members are not under any such illusions.
    Equally, there are some Conservatives who reckon no dementia tax and a doubling down on IRA/Venezuela rhetoric is a sure-fire winner.
    The next election, whenever it is, is very much up for grabs.
    And sensible people, whether Tory or Labour, realise it will be a long, hard slog.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
    It was changing the policy on the second day that really did for them. After weeks of campaigning on strong and stable, they trashed their brand in a moment.
    Yes. The u-turn.

    The main problem was the cabinet & MP's weren't prepared to go out, stand up for and explain the dementia tax and justify it with conservative principles.

    May was left out in the cold. She should have held her nerve, doubled down on the intergenerational fairness angle and detoxed herself a little with the 30's/40's. The kippers were unorganised and off the ballot paper in a large number of constituencies, anyway.

    May had no option, though. The wealthy tory client vote look to the state to subsidise them, and the party/most MP's - and most MP's in the cabinet - don't have a problem with this.

    With the dementia tax, May had broken a taboo. The client vote must be protected from austerity.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    .


    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!

    @dixiedean

    'I'm a leftwinger. I don't think victory is assured. The hubris is much less than many Conservatives like to think. It is confined to a few, relatively young, very idealistic, new members. They haven't had years of defeat.
    Equally, I detect amongst some on the Right, an idea that 2017 was an aberration. An accident of circumstance. never to be repeated.
    That is equally delusional.'
    Read twitter, many Corbyn supporters think he is the second coming and heading for an easy victory next time.
    'I agree with that. And I am not trying to convince you, of all people, of the wisdom of voting Labour.
    However, my point is that they are a small, noisy minority. Most experienced Labour members are not under any such illusions.
    Equally, there are some Conservatives who reckon no dementia tax and a doubling down on IRA/Venezuela rhetoric is a sure-fire winner.
    The next election, whenever it is, is very much up for grabs.
    And sensible people, whether Tory or Labour, realise it will be a long, hard slog.'


    I certainly agree with your last sentence, goodnight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited November 2017
    Pong said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I couldn’t think of much more annoying thing than Owen Jones mob bothering me when I am quietly going about my own business on a Saturday afternoon.

    Its called campaigning. I recommend Tories do not try it, it only loses them votes.
    What an absurd remark. I spent most weekends and evenings from April until the end of August this year campaigning for the Tories at county, general and town level, 2 of those results were unchanged but we gained the county seat.
    Torirs lost seats. Keep it up, you must be doing something right!
    Tories actually gained a net 563 councillors in May and although they lost a net 13 MPs in June they still won their second highest number of MPs in 25 years.
    Tories lost seats in parliament, a majority and a twenty point poll lead during the campaign.

    The rematch should be fun...

    Only because of May's disastrous dementia tax, that will not be repeated again.
    It was changing the policy on the second day that really did for them. After weeks of campaigning on strong and stable, they trashed their brand in a moment.
    Yes. The u-turn.

    The main problem was the cabinet & MP's weren't prepared to go out, stand up for and explain the dementia tax and justify it with conservative principles.

    May was left out in the cold. She should have held her nerve, doubled down on the intergenerational fairness angle and detoxed herself a little with the 30's/40's. The kippers were unorganised and off the ballot paper in a large number of constituencies, anyway.

    May had no option, though. The wealthy tory client vote look to the state to subsidise them, and the party/most MP's - and most MP's in the cabinet - don't have a problem with this.

    With the dementia tax, May had broken the taboo. The client vote must be protected from austerity.
    Except it was the 30s to 40s who were most turned off the Tories by the dementia tax as it would reduce their inheritance, it was that age group where there was the biggest Tory to Labour movement in the general election campaign, over 60s voted even more Tory in 2017 than they had in 2015.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    dixiedean said:

    .


    The more leftwingers think Corbyn is going to waltz to a landslide victory at the next general election the better for Tories as far as I am concerned so keep up that hubris!

    @dixiedean

    'I'm a leftwinger. I don't think victory is assured. The hubris is much less than many Conservatives like to think. It is confined to a few, relatively young, very idealistic, new members. They haven't had years of defeat.
    Equally, I detect amongst some on the Right, an idea that 2017 was an aberration. An accident of circumstance. never to be repeated.
    That is equally delusional.'
    Read twitter, many Corbyn supporters think he is the second coming and heading for an easy victory next time.
    'I agree with that. And I am not trying to convince you, of all people, of the wisdom of voting Labour.
    However, my point is that they are a small, noisy minority. Most experienced Labour members are not under any such illusions.
    Equally, there are some Conservatives who reckon no dementia tax and a doubling down on IRA/Venezuela rhetoric is a sure-fire winner.
    The next election, whenever it is, is very much up for grabs.
    And sensible people, whether Tory or Labour, realise it will be a long, hard slog.'
    I certainly agree with your last sentence, goodnight.

    And good night to you too.
  • dixiedean said:

    nielh said:

    FPT
    I suggest that you 'like' Momentum on Facebook and just watch the stuff they are coming out with.
    The videos are truly brilliant. Absolutely devastating for the tories. They have, in the space of a year or so, made all the running with the under 30's. They depict the tories as lying, greedy, hypocritical, selfish scumbags and the cause of all the nations ills. This may be unfair and untrue. But it is only what Lynton Crosby did to Ed Milliband two and a half years ago through his own mastery of conventional media and targetted adverts on Facebook.
    The world has turned upside down in the space of 24 months and it is now the tories who are in a hopeless predicament.

    Would add, though, that FB is very much an older demographic. It is not just under 30's sharing this stuff.
    The days of right-wing newspapers pumping out endless pro-Tory propaganda unchallenged is over.
    They will have to think of more creative ways of getting their message across.
    Facebook? Third least trusted source for information - only beaten by the Daily Star and The Sun?

    Looks like most of the Sundays have taken a break from U.K. politics with only the Sun flogging it’s dead horse Green story via a reported Hague angle.....
  • Nothing changes until Brexit gets some clarity.....

    Quite. The voters have given politicians their instructions and will check back later to see how well they have been carried out. Nothing much has changed since the GE - hence the stasis in the polls. Voters, quite sensibly, do not use a scanning electron microscope on politics as we do here.....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rcs1000 said:

    Can I recommend any PBers with an interest in law read the fabulous Jeremy Hutchinson's Case Histories.

    Utterly fascinating.

    Thank you.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:



    One of the biggest questions is whether a lot of Tory voters stayed at home last time because (a) they thought May was going to win easily and (b) they were unimpressed by her campaign. They won't stay at home again if so, now that it's clear that Corbyn has a real chance of becoming PM.

    Given the Tory vote was pretty darn high overall, I think banking on people who stayed home last time returning in fear of Corbyn to be highly risky.
    Maybe, but the turnout did drop slightly in some safe Tory seats which I don't think anyone would have predicted before the election.
  • Tories briefing against one another again...

    Chancellor's relationship with Prime Minister 'is at an all-time low' amid claims Theresa May is being 'poisoned' against Hammond

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5096673/Philip-Hammond-Theresa-relationship-time-low.html
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited November 2017

    Tories briefing against one another again...

    Chancellor's relationship with Prime Minister 'is at an all-time low' amid claims Theresa May is being 'poisoned' against Hammond

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5096673/Philip-Hammond-Theresa-relationship-time-low.html

    Or is that Sunday REMAINER Mail briefing against the PM?
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    I still don't understand why the LDs are so low, and why their former supporters would be attracted by Corbyn and McDonnell.

    That would depend, I think, on how many were genuinely centrist (albeit more centre left than right) and how many were mostly in it for the anti-Toryness and Lab was not the main left party previously. Half the party's support evaporated as soon as they went into coalition, so it seems fair to think much of that was the anti-Tory section, and they lost more support due to how things then developed over the next 5 years. With Labour unexpectedly doing well in 2017, there was no need for those who left to come back to the LDs.
    It amuses me how many Tories on PB and elsewhere see Corbyn as a special kind of evil, who will imperil the very survival of the country! .
    It is not particularly surprising - it's how the extremes of left and right see their opponents each time in any case - Ever heard people talk of a socialist menace, or Tory scum?

    For my part I do not think Corbyn is evil, but I do think he would be appreciably worse as a PM than, say, Ed M and Gordon Brown, who I was perfectly relaxed about winning, and I don't think being a good campaigner alters that. Of course, the Tories are hardly painting an attractive reason to vote for them now either, so I might well end up voting LD next time, assuming they actually bother to attempt to win my vote next time (in contrast to their usual efforts they made no attempt this time, focusing successfully on a nearby seat instead).
    All very fair comments. Corbyn may well be a worse PM than Ed M or Gordon B but it's the policies that attract me, and I'm not sure he could be much worse than Theresa has been as PM
    Policies require competence to implement them.
This discussion has been closed.