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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sean Fear – a great loss for the Tories and a great catch f

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited September 2013 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sean Fear – a great loss for the Tories and a great catch for UKIP

Sean’s relationship with the site is a long one. Back in 2004 he became just about the first regular Tory poster here at a time when the threads were totally dominated dominated by Labour supporters.

Read the full story here


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    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Syria Update; It is believed Arab League will release statement approving military action against Syria..done by someone else most likely but still, approving.

    According to Arab League insiders, approval will be offered amid a formulation that warns against the excessive use of force and is coupled with calls for the protection of Syria’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.
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    I have lost all respect for Cameron. The reports of expletives directed at Miliband is beneath contempt. A prime minister need calm and dignity, this man has none!
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    LBJ said that if he'd lost Walter Cronkite , he'd lost middle America. If Cameron has lost Sean Fear then he's lost the salt of the Tory earth.
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    When the referendum party lost David Bellamy, they knew the game was up.
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    Very poor from Man Utd today. They need to bring in a few players urgently, but have probably left it too late. Liverpool look solid, with Suarez still to return. They'll have a decent season, but the squad still looks a bit lightweight. Six clubs battling for the top 4 this year. No team looks a stand-out, but from the early skirmishes Chelsea and City are my favourites for 1st and 2nd.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Very poor from Man Utd today. They need to bring in a few players urgently, but have probably left it too late. Liverpool look solid, with Suarez still to return. They'll have a decent season, but the squad still looks a bit lightweight. Six clubs battling for the top 4 this year. No team looks a stand-out, but from the early skirmishes Chelsea and City are my favourites for 1st and 2nd.

    As Tim says, Spurs must have an outside chance of being top 2 this year.

    Looking forward to the 4 o'clock kick off.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Very poor from Man Utd today. They need to bring in a few players urgently, but have probably left it too late. Liverpool look solid, with Suarez still to return. They'll have a decent season, but the squad still looks a bit lightweight. Six clubs battling for the top 4 this year. No team looks a stand-out, but from the early skirmishes Chelsea and City are my favourites for 1st and 2nd.

    A weak field gives Spurs a chance.
    ...a chance to mess it up at the last and end up 5th on goal difference...
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited September 2013
    I agree that Sean's no fruitcake which makes his decision to join a party which is full of them a bit puzzling.

    I can only think he considers their right wingery as more important than their fruit cakery
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    I agree that Sean's no fruitcake which makes his decision to join a party which is full of them a bit puzzling.

    I can only think he puts their right wingery as more important than their fruit cakery

    The odd thing - if you back out the effects of Coalition - is that Cameron is more solidly right wing than a lot of Tory leaders over the years.
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    Sean- as a Conservative Party member and an unashamed Cameroon, just want to say how sorry I am about your decision as the Party needs to be a broad church to be succesful, but also to wish you all the very best for the future. Cheers.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited September 2013
    FPT:
    Charles said:
    » show previous quotes
    It's worth bearing in mind that, had the defence budget not been so massively overcommitted by the last lot (ordering toys without the money to pay for it) then the cuts wouldn't have been so deep
    ----------
    I do realise that Charles and you are right. However it does not absolve governments, both Labour and Tory of whittling away at our armed services ever since Suez and the final end of conscription. Maggie was lucky that her cuts had not been carried out by the time the Falklands episode started; the ships that were due for the scrapyard saved her bacon.

    A volunteer army of 180K, (Thats about 50K of front line fighting troops) as an absolute minimum, was supposed to be maintained for the defence of the realm. Look where we are now!
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    A very fine result by Liverpool today. Success breeds success with increasing self belief. My worry for them though would be the lack of real depth in their Squad. Perhaps any 'Pool fan on here might correct me but thats at least how i see it.
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    I obviously don't know Sean F at all, but from his postings on here, he's the type of person I could vote for. For Labour, I could vote for Southam Observer easily. For the Lib Dems, I dunno, maybe antifrank?
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Roger said:

    I agree that Sean's no fruitcake which makes his decision to join a party which is full of them a bit puzzling.

    I can only think he considers their right wingery as more important than their fruit cakery

    Are you calling me a Friutcake, Roger? Come outside and bring your second; it's pistols at dawn.
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    FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Just had a very interesting lunch with one of the UK's Chief Scientific Advisers (recently retired) and his wife. Had met him before informally but this was the first time he had really let his hair down.

    He said that he had always been Labour but would not vote for them again as he described the current shadow cabinet as "less than third class", both in quality and capability and was unable to see any rising future stars.

    His remarks also go for the other parties as he found few ministers to be top notch and their civil servants to be totally lacking vision.

    His remarks were specifically aimed at the Depts of Energy where he was aghast at the lack of a strategic plan and the seeming lack of urgency to formulate one.

    In the course of his work he had travelled widely in France, Italy, Spain and Portugal as he was interested in where and how EU money was spent. He found that in all these countries that EU rules are disregarded on how the money is spent, whilst in the UK those rules are followed over-religiously. Hence those countries have obtained a better infrastructure in many places than the UK.

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Welcome Sean Fear to the UKIP fold. I hope to see you at conference.
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    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    The risk of joining UKIP is that it does have a loony element and a number of loose cannons, but the addition and presence of people of the calibre of Sean does, in itself, diminish the risk.

    The problem with joining UKIP is that it's splitting the centre-right, and that will have electoral consequences. Sean knows this, of course, so he must think the Tory Party is beyond redemption.
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    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Stopper, Mr. Submarine and the late Mr. SBS were both excellent Lib Dem regulars.

    MIss 64, could be wrong, but I wasn't aware you ever had any respect for Cameron.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    I agree that Sean's no fruitcake which makes his decision to join a party which is full of them a bit puzzling.

    I can only think he puts their right wingery as more important than their fruit cakery

    The odd thing - if you back out the effects of Coalition - is that Cameron is more solidly right wing than a lot of Tory leaders over the years.
    hardly Charles.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited September 2013
    I think we should hear from Sean. I know he thinks Cameron a pinko and the only party to the Tories right that you can mention in polite company is UKIP.

    After Iraq several of the brightest and best on the Labour side moved to the Lib Dems or the Greens or even Respect. To the left of Blair they had a lot of choice.
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    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @MikeK

    'A volunteer army of 180K, (Thats about 50K of front line fighting troops) as an absolute minimum, was supposed to be maintained for the defence of the realm. Look where we are now!

    But using your leader's logic it could be cut even further since we will no longer be involved in any overseas interventions.
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    Sarah Sackman selected by Labour in Finchley. She beats Alon Or-bach
    www.sarahsackman.com/

    Will Straw selected in Rossendale

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Good evening, everyone.

    Mr. Stopper, Mr. Submarine and the late Mr. SBS were both excellent Lib Dem regulars.

    MIss 64, could be wrong, but I wasn't aware you ever had any respect for Cameron.

    The late Mr SBS? (assume you mean Stars By Stripz) Did I miss something? I hope not, as always very much enjoyed his posts.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Syria - part 27

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/10279018/John-Kerry-US-has-proof-that-sarin-gas-used-in-Syria.html

    John Kerry says -

    "(Assad) has now joined the list of Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein" in deploying chemical weapons against his population."

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    I agree that Sean's no fruitcake which makes his decision to join a party which is full of them a bit puzzling.

    I can only think he puts their right wingery as more important than their fruit cakery

    The odd thing - if you back out the effects of Coalition - is that Cameron is more solidly right wing than a lot of Tory leaders over the years.
    hardly Charles.
    Economicly drier, more Eurosceptic, more radical on welfare reform and education. He's more socially liberal, but I think that's in tune with the times.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    United are just completely lacking in attacking flair. Slow, ponderous, cautious. It really won't do.

    I would hope the squad will be strong enough to qualify for the CL but the title is a non starter until we get a manager who knows how to win.

    Liverpool definitely look better but they will face sterner tests. What are they going to do if Gerrard gets injured?

    Spurs have bought really well. A CL position is surely in sight. Chelsea, City, Spurs, hopefully Man U. Best we can hope for.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Fire stopper

    "For the Lib Dems, I dunno, maybe antifrank?"

    A lot of the best posters used to be Lib Dems but after the debacle of Clegg all but Mark Senior and one or two others have slunk off.



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    @TwistedFireStopper I'm not a Lib Dem, though they're currently the likeliest repository of my vote at the next election. I last voted Lib Dem in 1992, I think, though I'm a bit hazy about 2001.

    I can't ever imagine standing for a Parliamentary election for any party. Morbid curiosity might tempt me to try my luck as a local councillor.
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    Mr. Charles, no, SBS was the username. He was here when I first joined in 2007, and very sadly died of an illness. He was a much respected and well-liked chap.
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    Financier said:



    His remarks were specifically aimed at the Depts of Energy where he was aghast at the lack of a strategic plan and the seeming lack of urgency to formulate one.

    In the course of his work he had travelled widely in France, Italy, Spain and Portugal as he was interested in where and how EU money was spent. He found that in all these countries that EU rules are disregarded on how the money is spent, whilst in the UK those rules are followed over-religiously. Hence those countries have obtained a better infrastructure in many places than the UK.

    1. I think the price of gas/electricity is going to be an issue in 2015, and as the three main parties are all signed up to expensive energy, it'll be a good issue for UKIP.

    2. There was rather negative article about EU infrastructure grants the other day. (link below)

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/matspersson/100025417/the-eu-budget-is-a-disaster-that-cannot-save-greece/
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    antifrank said:

    @TwistedFireStopper I'm not a Lib Dem, though they're currently the likeliest repository of my vote at the next election. I last voted Lib Dem in 1992, I think, though I'm a bit hazy about 2001.

    I can't ever imagine standing for a Parliamentary election for any party. Morbid curiosity might tempt me to try my luck as a local councillor.

    My apologies, I wasn't sure. I nearly voted for you in Poster of the year, a while ago, but I was too lazy to hit the button. I might be misremembering, but I think you lost by one vote! I could have changed the course of PB history.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    I agree that Sean's no fruitcake which makes his decision to join a party which is full of them a bit puzzling.

    I can only think he puts their right wingery as more important than their fruit cakery

    The odd thing - if you back out the effects of Coalition - is that Cameron is more solidly right wing than a lot of Tory leaders over the years.
    hardly Charles.
    Economicly drier, more Eurosceptic, more radical on welfare reform and education. He's more socially liberal, but I think that's in tune with the times.
    Spending more than Labour, spending more on welfare than Labour and Universal Credit reduced to three postcodes in Tameside.
    Don't believe the propaganda
    In real terms, stripping out the impact of debt interest, government spending is down.

    I'm fine with Universal Credit roll out going slowly. It's a big project and it's important to take the time to get it right.

    The 5.2% increase in welfare was, in hindsight, overly generous. But (IIRC) that was the automatic rate of increase (September RPI or somesuch) and it would have taken positive action to implement a change. You can imagine the screams of anger and the attempt to use it to 'toxify' the Tory name. Completely unreasonably, but then many on the left don't care about affordability.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Charles, no, SBS was the username. He was here when I first joined in 2007, and very sadly died of an illness. He was a much respected and well-liked chap.

    Thank you
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited September 2013
    @DavidL

    "United are just completely lacking in attacking flair. Slow, ponderous, cautious. It really won't do."

    They've not had a good team for a couple of seasons. Fergie did too much shuffling leaving some of his best players-like Nani-completely bereft of confidence and a further two or three way past retirement age. Worst of all Moyes is no way up to the job and everybody knows it.

    They should have got Wenger
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited September 2013
    @Floater

    "(Assad) has now joined the list of Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein" in deploying chemical weapons against his population."

    There haven't been that many civil wars but did Hitler? And I suppose it depends what you call your own people. Israel have used them and the US have used them so probably not too smart of Kerry to bring this up.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:


    There haven't been that many civil wars but did Hitler? And I suppose it depends what you call your own people.

    I hope you are not implying that the German Jews were not true Germans?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    @Charles

    Grey Squirrels were rolled out faster than Universal Credit.

    Ain't free enterprise great ;-)
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Roger said:

    @Floater

    "(Assad) has now joined the list of Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein" in deploying chemical weapons against his population."

    There haven't been that many civil wars but did Hitler? And I suppose it depends what you call your own people. Israel have used them and the US have used them so probably not too smart of Kerry to bring this up.

    I think we all aware of what Kerry was referring to re Hitler.

    At least I hope we do.

    Can you give some detail on the Israeli use of chemical weapons?



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    First and foremost I am very glad to see Sean join UKIP. But funnily enough it is because I fear UKIP is not the party it could be or should be and that having someone like Sea involved makes it just that little bit more likely it will develop into the party I would like it to be.

    I have to admit I can't remember where Sean stands on many policies - but I do have that basic feeling of knowing that generally when I see him post on something my instinctive first reaction is that I agree with him and that he is one of the allies rather than one of the opponents. We all have differing opinions on things even when we are in the same party or at least on the same political alignment and but I don't remember seeing a Sean post that I couldn't basically agree with.

    I can't help but feel that Sean might be joining the party he would like to be rather than the party that is (if you will excuse my tortuous use of the English language).

    There are a lot of things wrong with UKIP, both organisationally and politically and I can't quite get myself away from the feeling that it is the best of a bad lot which is hardly a ringing endorsement. It is, to my mind, far too small 'c' conservative and reactionary. It could be a positive anti-statist party and certainly there is a wing that wishes it to be that way - a wing that I believe includes quite a few senior members. But it does appear to me that UKIP membership swells most when it takes a reactionary position rather than a positive reform position on things. For me as a Libertarian this is not a good thing.

    Hopefully if we get more new members of Sean's calibre and outlook this might change but I am by no means certain that this will be the case.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,109
    edited September 2013
    Roger said:


    "(Assad) has now joined the list of Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein" in deploying chemical weapons against his population."

    There haven't been that many civil wars but did Hitler? And I suppose it depends what you call your own people. Israel have used them and the US have used them so probably not too smart of Kerry to bring this up.

    I think Kerry is going down the tried and trusted route of Godwinning any middle eastern dictator that happens to be in the US gun sights. I presume he's comparing the Syria chemical attack with concentration camp gas chambers.

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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Charles

    " I hope you are not implying that the German Jews were not true Germans?"

    Of course not but if you are including executions such as that suffered by the Jews in concentration camps then you would have to include Americans executed using gas and lethal injection in their penal system.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited September 2013
    Roger said:

    @Floater

    "(Assad) has now joined the list of Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein" in deploying chemical weapons against his population."

    There haven't been that many civil wars but did Hitler? And I suppose it depends what you call your own people. Israel have used them and the US have used them so probably not too smart of Kerry to bring this up.

    You are a lying c**t Roger Israel has never used poison gass!
    You are also a lying Fascist to to read your comments on jews.
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    I agree that Sean F is a great loss to the Conservatives but I confess that I remain unconvinced that his change will last . I seem to recall a recent post of his which said he will still be voting Conservative in Luton as it is a Labour / Conservative marginal .
    SBS ( Sam ) was a tragic loss at a very young age and someone I spoke to outside of pb .
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    @Charles

    " I hope you are not implying that the German Jews were not true Germans?"

    Of course not but if you are including executions such as that suffered by the Jews in concentration camps then you would have to include Americans executed using gas and lethal injection in their penal system.

    I'm not a fan of the death penalty by any means (I've argued with SeanT about it a few times) but there is a world of difference between judicial execution after a fair trial and gassing a bunch of civilians indiscriminately.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    MikeK said:

    Roger said:

    @Floater

    "(Assad) has now joined the list of Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein" in deploying chemical weapons against his population."

    There haven't been that many civil wars but did Hitler? And I suppose it depends what you call your own people. Israel have used them and the US have used them so probably not too smart of Kerry to bring this up.

    You are a lying c**t Roger Israel has never used poison gass!
    .
    Well, I was slightly surprised to see Roger's claim.

    He does have form for getting things utterly wrong but lets see his response before we get over excited.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Roger said:

    I agree that Sean's no fruitcake which makes his decision to join a party which is full of them a bit puzzling.

    I can only think he puts their right wingery as more important than their fruit cakery

    The odd thing - if you back out the effects of Coalition - is that Cameron is more solidly right wing than a lot of Tory leaders over the years.
    hardly Charles.
    Economicly drier, more Eurosceptic, more radical on welfare reform and education. He's more socially liberal, but I think that's in tune with the times.
    Economically he's a corporatist, his radicalism is fairly limited and he's a centralist rather than passing power and responsibilities to the individual.
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    Interesting news regarding SeanF.

    As Mike indicates, he has been an outstanding Tory voice on the Site, respected by posters of all political persuasions.

    He really will be a loss to the Party, but it will cope. I just hope he has a happy and successful relationship with his new Party.

    It would be wonderful if he made it to Parliament. We'd all be better off, his constituents particularly.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    MikeK said:

    FPT:
    Charles said:
    » show previous quotes
    It's worth bearing in mind that, had the defence budget not been so massively overcommitted by the last lot (ordering toys without the money to pay for it) then the cuts wouldn't have been so deep
    ----------
    I do realise that Charles and you are right. However it does not absolve governments, both Labour and Tory of whittling away at our armed services ever since Suez and the final end of conscription. Maggie was lucky that her cuts had not been carried out by the time the Falklands episode started; the ships that were due for the scrapyard saved her bacon.

    A volunteer army of 180K, (Thats about 50K of front line fighting troops) as an absolute minimum, was supposed to be maintained for the defence of the realm. Look where we are now!

    Exactly. Intervene when your armed forces are in decent shape to intervene.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited September 2013
    ............Ed Miliband was no more in control of events last week than was Cameron. Posturing about not ruling out a military strike, he lost the opportunity to position Labour as the peace party, leaving Nigel Farage unchallenged in claiming that moral high ground for Ukip. Last week was good for Ukip; not only will Dave’s meltdown accelerate the defection of Tories to Farage, but disillusioned Liberal Democrats, who have been moving to Ukip in surprisingly, even illogically, high numbers, will also be attracted to the fourth party.

    What happened last Thursday was not a Machiavellian political ambush: it was the belated revolt of the doomed Tory Party against its destroyer. Cameron failed to secure the support of 63 Conservative MPs – in a vote on war. One in five Tory members sat this one out, 30 voted against Cameron. They included even members of the notorious “payroll vote”. That so many aspiring junior ministers should have joined the rebellion, on the eve of a reshuffle, speaks volumes. It means they recognise that after 2015 – at the latest – Cameron will no longer be in a position to extend patronage. Dave is not so much a lame-duck premier as a legless one.

    America has already absorbed the lesson: Dave has lost his party, he can deliver nothing, he is yesterday’s man. It was notable he did not call Barack Obama after his defeat. His hopes of securing even cosmetic “concessions” from the European Union to appease his MPs – though not the electorate – are sunk. He scarcely bothered to court his backbenchers: Labour had enabled him to bulldoze through homosexual marriage, which was supported only by a minority of Conservative MPs: it would do the same for him on Syria. It was not only Dave who was served notice to quit last week, but the whole “modernising” clique, the Entitled Ones, who for years have betrayed Tory principles and despised party activists as “swivel-eyed loons”.

    Read the full piece:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerald-warner-fags-revolt-makes-eton-mess-of-cameron-s-tories-1-3070062#.UiNSLcdp1Is.twitter
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    MikeK said:

    ............Ed Miliband was no more in control of events last week than was Cameron. Posturing about not ruling out a military strike, he lost the opportunity to position Labour as the peace party, leaving Nigel Farage unchallenged in claiming that moral high ground for Ukip. Last week was good for Ukip; not only will Dave’s meltdown accelerate the defection of Tories to Farage, but disillusioned Liberal Democrats, who have been moving to Ukip in surprisingly, even illogically, high numbers, will also be attracted to the fourth party.

    What happened last Thursday was not a Machiavellian political ambush: it was the belated revolt of the doomed Tory Party against its destroyer. Cameron failed to secure the support of 63 Conservative MPs – in a vote on war. One in five Tory members sat this one out, 30 voted against Cameron. They included even members of the notorious “payroll vote”. That so many aspiring junior ministers should have joined the rebellion, on the eve of a reshuffle, speaks volumes. It means they recognise that after 2015 – at the latest – Cameron will no longer be in a position to extend patronage. Dave is not so much a lame-duck premier as a legless one.

    America has already absorbed the lesson: Dave has lost his party, he can deliver nothing, he is yesterday’s man. It was notable he did not call Barack Obama after his defeat. His hopes of securing even cosmetic “concessions” from the European Union to appease his MPs – though not the electorate – are sunk. He scarcely bothered to court his backbenchers: Labour had enabled him to bulldoze through homosexual marriage, which was supported only by a minority of Conservative MPs: it would do the same for him on Syria. It was not only Dave who was served notice to quit last week, but the whole “modernising” clique, the Entitled Ones, who for years have betrayed Tory principles and despised party activists as “swivel-eyed loons”.

    Read the full piece:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerald-warner-fags-revolt-makes-eton-mess-of-cameron-s-tories-1-3070062#.UiNSLcdp1Is.twitter

    Warner is madder than Kim jong Un at a cane toad licking festival.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    I thought it was David Frost who had died, not Sean Fear.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Floater said:

    Syria - part 27

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/10279018/John-Kerry-US-has-proof-that-sarin-gas-used-in-Syria.html

    John Kerry says -

    "(Assad) has now joined the list of Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein" in deploying chemical weapons against his population."

    "the administration had learnt of the sarin use within the past 24 hours through samples of hair and blood. The samples were provided to Washington by activists in Damascus, independently of the UN investigation."

    So they didn't have any evidence before the planned attack which was called off at the last minute by Obama.

    Still, it's all good, they can show their evidence to the UNSC including who these "activists" are who supplied the hair samples.

    As an aside it looks like Kerry is leading the charge for the regime-changers with Obama holding back.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    MikeK said:



    What happened last Thursday was not a Machiavellian political ambush: it was the belated revolt of the doomed Tory Party against its destroyer. etc etc

    Read the full piece:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerald-warner-fags-revolt-makes-eton-mess-of-cameron-s-tories-1-3070062#.UiNSLcdp1Is.twitter

    1. Gerald Warner was too nutty even for the Telegraph
    2. He did speak to Obama.
    3. I suspect the result was a cock up, driven by complacency following Miliband's commitment to support him
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    MikeK said:

    ............Ed Miliband was no more in control of events last week than was Cameron. Posturing about not ruling out a military strike, he lost the opportunity to position Labour as the peace party, leaving Nigel Farage unchallenged in claiming that moral high ground for Ukip. Last week was good for Ukip; not only will Dave’s meltdown accelerate the defection of Tories to Farage, but disillusioned Liberal Democrats, who have been moving to Ukip in surprisingly, even illogically, high numbers, will also be attracted to the fourth party.

    What happened last Thursday was not a Machiavellian political ambush: it was the belated revolt of the doomed Tory Party against its destroyer. Cameron failed to secure the support of 63 Conservative MPs – in a vote on war. One in five Tory members sat this one out, 30 voted against Cameron. They included even members of the notorious “payroll vote”. That so many aspiring junior ministers should have joined the rebellion, on the eve of a reshuffle, speaks volumes. It means they recognise that after 2015 – at the latest – Cameron will no longer be in a position to extend patronage. Dave is not so much a lame-duck premier as a legless one.

    America has already absorbed the lesson: Dave has lost his party, he can deliver nothing, he is yesterday’s man. It was notable he did not call Barack Obama after his defeat. His hopes of securing even cosmetic “concessions” from the European Union to appease his MPs – though not the electorate – are sunk. He scarcely bothered to court his backbenchers: Labour had enabled him to bulldoze through homosexual marriage, which was supported only by a minority of Conservative MPs: it would do the same for him on Syria. It was not only Dave who was served notice to quit last week, but the whole “modernising” clique, the Entitled Ones, who for years have betrayed Tory principles and despised party activists as “swivel-eyed loons”.

    Read the full piece:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerald-warner-fags-revolt-makes-eton-mess-of-cameron-s-tories-1-3070062#.UiNSLcdp1Is.twitter

    The sooner Warner is put out to pasture the better.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336

    But it does appear to me that UKIP membership swells most when it takes a reactionary position rather than a positive reform position on things. For me as a Libertarian this is not a good thing.

    Hopefully if we get more new members of Sean's calibre and outlook this might change but I am by no means certain that this will be the case.

    Sean F is always worth reading and it'd be interesting to have a thread header by him on why he switched, and what he sees as the strengths and weaknesses of his new party - I'd not expect him to be shy of mentioning either.

    I think you're right that UKIP is predominantly reactionary (in the sense of longing for the good old days) rather than either libertarian or, to be fair, racist. I've seen a column by a left-wing commentator that Britain is fortunate to have a reactionary right party doing well rather than a fascist one, and I think that's broadly true. There's nothing very terrible about wanting a perceived Britain of the past to return, though we can argue about its realism or desirability. A libertarian small-government party would be an interesting addition, but I can't see one anywhere on the landscape - the Pirates perhaps come closest on the European scene. UKIP is libertarian on some issues but mainly by accident, when they grouchily reject some new-fangled restrictions: they don't seem to systematically favour less government and more individualism. Similarly their anti-immigration line seems more driven by it being seen as a major cultural change (and therefore bad) rather than a BNP-style dislike of foreigners per se. There are obviously exceptions to all these generalisations.

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    Pretty much as expected at the Emirates. Arsenal sharper and with a lot more movement. Spurs looking like a team that has not played much together. We'll be a lot better than this in a few weeks, but unfortunately the NLD has come a bit too early in the season.
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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:

    ............Ed Miliband was no more in control of events last week than was Cameron. Posturing about not ruling out a military strike, he lost the opportunity to position Labour as the peace party, leaving Nigel Farage unchallenged in claiming that moral high ground for Ukip. Last week was good for Ukip; not only will Dave’s meltdown accelerate the defection of Tories to Farage, but disillusioned Liberal Democrats, who have been moving to Ukip in surprisingly, even illogically, high numbers, will also be attracted to the fourth party.

    What happened last Thursday was not a Machiavellian political ambush: it was the belated revolt of the doomed Tory Party against its destroyer. Cameron failed to secure the support of 63 Conservative MPs – in a vote on war. One in five Tory members sat this one out, 30 voted against Cameron. They included even members of the notorious “payroll vote”. That so many aspiring junior ministers should have joined the rebellion, on the eve of a reshuffle, speaks volumes. It means they recognise that after 2015 – at the latest – Cameron will no longer be in a position to extend patronage. Dave is not so much a lame-duck premier as a legless one.

    America has already absorbed the lesson: Dave has lost his party, he can deliver nothing, he is yesterday’s man. It was notable he did not call Barack Obama after his defeat. His hopes of securing even cosmetic “concessions” from the European Union to appease his MPs – though not the electorate – are sunk. He scarcely bothered to court his backbenchers: Labour had enabled him to bulldoze through homosexual marriage, which was supported only by a minority of Conservative MPs: it would do the same for him on Syria. It was not only Dave who was served notice to quit last week, but the whole “modernising” clique, the Entitled Ones, who for years have betrayed Tory principles and despised party activists as “swivel-eyed loons”.

    Read the full piece:
    http://www.scotsman.com/news/gerald-warner-fags-revolt-makes-eton-mess-of-cameron-s-tories-1-3070062#.UiNSLcdp1Is.twitter

    Warner is madder than Kim jong Un at a cane toad licking festival.
    How do you know what a Cane Toad Licking Festival is like, unless you've been to one yourself? Brrrp brrrp!
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Alanbrooke

    "Warner is madder than Kim jong Un at a cane toad licking festival."

    LOL! But if it means what I think it means it's an understatement!

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    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited September 2013
    Revealed: Britain sold nerve gas chemicals to Syria 10 months after war began

    FURIOUS politicians have demanded Prime Minister David Cameron explain why chemical export licences were granted to firms last January – 10 months after the Syrian uprising began.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/britain-sold-nerve-gas-chemicals-2242520

    I bet Assad said he wanted the chemicals for agricultural reasons.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Andrew Roberts in his Mail on Sunday article (linked on previous thread) has provided the best commentary of the day on the HoC shambles last week:

    The Britain we must now look forward to is the one exemplified by Danny Boyle’s Olympics opening ceremony, where everything socialistic, feel-goody, hipster and ‘progressive’ was glorified, whereas the things we should really be proud about Britain for – such as her place in the front lines of the struggles against Fascism, Communism, Islamofascism and other totalitarian ideologies – were entirely ignored.

    As I recall, some of the brighter PB Tories predicted this would happen at the time of the Olympics opening ceremony.
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    perdixperdix Posts: 1,806

    I have lost all respect for Cameron. The reports of expletives directed at Miliband is beneath contempt. A prime minister need calm and dignity, this man has none!

    The expletives directed at ReD were not said by Cameron, but as they were reported are entirely appropriate.

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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Hmm.

    "Analysis by The Sunday Telegraph shows that the authorities have investigated more than 700 cases of sensitive data being obtained illegally from organisations such as mobile telephone companies, councils and the NHS in the last five years.

    The cases cover the details of hundreds of thousands of individuals, and include instances where confidential medical information was stolen from official databases. In some cases the personal information was sold on to marketing firms, providing leads for Britain’s burgeoning cold-calling industry. Many records were stolen by employees seeking a profit, while in other cases, staff used the data in personal feuds. The analysis shows the theft of data on an industrial scale, and experts say its extent highlights the weaknesses of security systems designed to protect personal information once it has been handed over to organisations in both the public and private sectors.

    ...The Sunday Telegraph, assisted by Big Brother Watch, a privacy campaign group, analysed all prosecutions brought against people for breaching section 55 of the Data Protection Act in the last five years...The analysis disclosed that prosecutors had brought charges for 714 alleged breaches of section 55 in the last five financial years... >> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/10278345/Medical-files-to-phones-personal-details-stolen-on-industrial-scale.html
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I've seen a column by a left-wing commentator that Britain is fortunate to have a reactionary right party doing well rather than a fascist one, and I think that's broadly true.

    Did he explain why he considers fascism right wing?

    Mussolini, who invented it, was a socialist.
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    UKIP is a party for people who don't feel in touch with 'the system' ie the retired (even if well off ,as a retired person, nobody listens to you or takes you seriously) , the small self- employed person (again having a sense of having to really earn a living and not being on any gravy train) and the thinking (yet often ignored -just look at the parliament make up) manual worker .
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    I think you're right that UKIP is predominantly reactionary (in the sense of longing for the good old days) rather than either libertarian or, to be fair, racist. I've seen a column by a left-wing commentator that Britain is fortunate to have a reactionary right party doing well rather than a fascist one, and I think that's broadly true. There's nothing very terrible about wanting a perceived Britain of the past to return, though we can argue about its realism or desirability.

    Funnily enough though a return to an earlier age, at least in part, would be a return to a more Libertarian era. Go back to the first half of the twentieth century when government intrusion into many areas of our daily lives was much smaller than it is today. Of course in other ways it was much more so and so there is no desire for a uniform 'turning back the clocks'. Liberalisation of drugs laws (for example) would have to be combined with the welcome removal of the anti- gay laws that we have had in the last few decades.

    But it is in the little things rather than the big headlines that things could and should be so much better. There is no reason why (as an example) I as a geologist should find it so difficult now to by Hydrochloric acid compared to 20 or 30 years ago. The same goes for many other useful chemicals. It might be a minor thing to most but for me in my job and my hobby it is a real pain. And it is funny to talk to people and find how many other unnecessary inconveniences have been imposed on them in their daily lives over the last half century or so. On their own they might be minor and something that much of the population would not even be aware of but they all add up and I suspect there are few people who do not find that there is some unnecessary governmental interference into their work or private lives they would not like to see removed.

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    UKIP is a party for people who don't feel in touch with 'the system' ie the retired (even if well off ,as a retired person, nobody listens to you or takes you seriously) , the small self- employed person (again having a sense of having to really earn a living and not being on any gravy train) and the thinking (yet often ignored -just look at the parliament make up) manual worker .

    Well as a self employed consultant I certainly fit that bill. But to be honest I also have a philosophical bent towards UKIP rather than just a personal interest.
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    Pretty much as expected at the Emirates. Arsenal sharper and with a lot more movement. Spurs looking like a team that has not played much together. We'll be a lot better than this in a few weeks, but unfortunately the NLD has come a bit too early in the season.

    Spuds replace Bale with Lamela; Tories replace Sean with Plato. There is a pleasing symmetry and I don't suppose Tottenham will be winning in 2015 either.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited September 2013

    I have lost all respect for Cameron. The reports of expletives directed at Miliband is beneath contempt. A prime minister need calm and dignity, this man has none!

    Silly old moo. Have you checked your handbag or, if it is not there, the glove pocket of the car?

    It is so easy to lose things nowadays if you are not careful.
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    On topic, I can't understand the interest in becoming a member of one political party, never mind transferring from one to another. If I want to indulge in tribalism, I have Norwich City for that.
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    I always thought John Major would make a good UKIP leader (if UKIP toned down its immigration policy) . UKIP goes for the common man who is not socialist. Plenty around and John Major got a lot of votes in 1992 from them
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    antifrank said:

    On topic, I can't understand the interest in becoming a member of one political party, never mind transferring from one to another. If I want to indulge in tribalism, I have Norwich City for that.

    It is like trying a new restaurant, antifrank.

    Something to do in one's salad days.

    When the sun is setting, most generally return to the comfort food of the nursery.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited September 2013
    @Avery

    "the things we should really be proud about Britain for – such as her place in the front lines of the struggles against Fascism, Communism, Islamofascism and other totalitarian ideologies"

    Much too negative. He'd have walk outs. People like looking forward. I was hoping that the momentum of the well received Olympic opening would consign Victorian relics like Roberts to a life outside of the public sphere
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    I always thought John Major would make a good UKIP leader (if UKIP toned down its immigration policy) . UKIP goes for the common man who is not socialist. Plenty around and John Major got a lot of votes in 1992 from them

    UKIP. The party which wants to increase spending on the armed forces by 40% in order to opt out of its international military obligations.

    That conundrum is realling tying Mike K up in knots.

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    UKIP is a party for people who don't feel in touch with 'the system' ie the retired (even if well off ,as a retired person, nobody listens to you or takes you seriously) , the small self- employed person (again having a sense of having to really earn a living and not being on any gravy train) and the thinking (yet often ignored -just look at the parliament make up) manual worker .

    It is probably fair to say that Cameroons and Blairites have little in common with their natural supporters but one crucial difference is that at least New Labour realised this and, at least in the early days, went out of its way to connect with the whole party. I genuinely think Cameron's tragedy is that he and his circle do not even realise they are out of touch with their voters -- professionals, entrepreneurs, small business owners, and along to many of those giving their time in churches and voluntary organisations.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Pretty much as expected at the Emirates. Arsenal sharper and with a lot more movement. Spurs looking like a team that has not played much together. We'll be a lot better than this in a few weeks, but unfortunately the NLD has come a bit too early in the season.

    Spuds replace Bale with Lamela; Tories replace Sean with Plato. There is a pleasing symmetry and I don't suppose Tottenham will be winning in 2015 either.
    What on Earth are you talking about? I must remember to use your name in random vain insinuations in future.
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    Mr. Charles, in addition the NSDAP stood for National Socialist Democratic Workers Party, which is hardly a rightwing sort of name.
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    AveryLP said:

    I always thought John Major would make a good UKIP leader (if UKIP toned down its immigration policy) . UKIP goes for the common man who is not socialist. Plenty around and John Major got a lot of votes in 1992 from them

    UKIP. The party which wants to increase spending on the armed forces by 40% in order to opt out of its international military obligations.

    That conundrum is realling tying Mike K up in knots.

    Not in the least. What he is expressing is a general acceptance that the UK is now woefully under-equipped and under manned to even defend its own interests let alone get involved in ill considered adventures in the Middle East separating two sides that will both hate us for it.

    It is now considered doubtful in military circles whether we could retake the Falklands or fulfil out NATO obligations should the Syrians choose to attack Turkey - something which even many of us in UKIP believe would then justify our intervention.

    So to claim that we need a larger military spend whilst at the same time believing we should not be acting as the World's deputy sheriff is entirely consistent.

    What is not consistent is the Tory line that we should be sticking our noses into every fight around the world whilst cutting our armed forces so much that we are incapable of actually doing anything other than stirring up anger against us without actually doing any good.

    I accept in part the argument that much of the dire state of our armed forces is due to previous administrations but in that case you do something to change that and until such times as you have done that you cut your cloth according to your means.
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10278424/Syria-crisis-Blair-to-blame-for-Cameron-downfall.html

    In among a load of silly stuff about how only bond villains can get hold of and use chemical weapons Gilligan makes the good point that part of the public resistance to Iraq 2 is Iraq 1 and in particular the gang of four and their dodgy dossier.

    If the political establishment want to lance that boil then considering the gang of four are too tainted to be useful to them any more they could dump a ton of official sh*te on them via Chilcot and close the chapter - justice seen to be done etc.
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    RedRag1RedRag1 Posts: 527
    edited September 2013
    On Topic - Has Sean wrote an article of why he had gone to UKIP (and I have missed it)? Or would he rather keep it to himself, not everyone obviously wants a Hodges type declaration.
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    Mr. Charles, in addition the NSDAP stood for National Socialist Democratic Workers Party, which is hardly a rightwing sort of name.

    Mr. Dancer. Be prepared to be consumed by a feral enormo-haddock. The D stood for the German word for its own country!!

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    yes John, The non- socialist working class common man will vote tory (as they did for Major in 1992 and to some extent Thatcher) but they do so knowing the tory party isn't really ideal for them. They may have found a more soulmate in UKIP .

    Cameron made a big mistake in referring to UKIP as fruitcakes - It really insulted the above type of voter imo. Major or Thatcher (whilst insulting the toffs and wets ) would never insult the common man even indirectly like Cameron did.
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    Really? Ha, I stand corrected and bethwacked. I was right about the rest of it, though, right?
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    MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    AveryLP said:

    I always thought John Major would make a good UKIP leader (if UKIP toned down its immigration policy) . UKIP goes for the common man who is not socialist. Plenty around and John Major got a lot of votes in 1992 from them

    UKIP. The party which wants to increase spending on the armed forces by 40% in order to opt out of its international military obligations.

    That conundrum is realling tying Mike K up in knots.

    Other way round. Don't intervene - especially don't get bounced into regime change based on a humanitarian case which is entirely bogus - unless your military is in good shape and if it isn't, fix your military first, think about military interventions second.
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    Sean Fear is an excellent poster, and is of course resoundingly sane. He's also confirmed he'd vote Conservative in a Con/Lab seat, thus showing that he understands, as many UKIP members don't, that ultimately an election is a choice, and the choice which will be available in a Labour-led or Conservative-led government.
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    What is not consistent is the Tory line that we should be sticking our noses into every fight around the world...

    I must have missed that bit of the Tory line. Could you provide a reference backing up that bizarre assertion?
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    Really? Ha, I stand corrected and bethwacked. I was right about the rest of it, though, right?

    You are :)
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    Plato said:

    Pretty much as expected at the Emirates. Arsenal sharper and with a lot more movement. Spurs looking like a team that has not played much together. We'll be a lot better than this in a few weeks, but unfortunately the NLD has come a bit too early in the season.

    Spuds replace Bale with Lamela; Tories replace Sean with Plato. There is a pleasing symmetry and I don't suppose Tottenham will be winning in 2015 either.
    What on Earth are you talking about? I must remember to use your name in random vain insinuations in future.
    It's a joke based on SO's unfathomable alliegance to White Hart Lane. Google the names and read the OP for more information.
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    Mr. O, well, that's something. Cheers for the correction, old bean.
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    in leading UKIP Nigel Farage has a strange advantage in that he looks (and acts) older than he is (I couldn't believe it when I looked at when he was born and found he was under 50) To a liberal democrat this is fatal but to a UKIPer it is gold dust!
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    in leading UKIP Nigel Farage has a strange advantage in that he looks (and acts) older than he is (I couldn't believe it when I looked at when he was born and found he was under 50) To a liberal democrat this is fatal but to a UKIPer it is gold dust!

    TBH, Ming looked like Jeremy Bentham when he was elected leader.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Mr Jones

    "In among a load of silly stuff about how only bond villains can get hold of and use chemical weapons Gilligan makes the good point that part of the public resistance to Iraq 2 is Iraq 1 and in particular the gang of four and their dodgy dossier."

    There's an old Spanish saying that if you sit by the river long enough the body of your enemy will come floating by. I wish Gilligan would take note. He keeps retrieving the body and then tries to drown him all over again. He's a dead parrot Gilligan. Let him go
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    JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,215

    Mr. O, well, that's something. Cheers for the correction, old bean.

    As now Father of the pbTories (most graciously bestowed by King Roger I), I dispense universal benevolence to all my flock.

    Eventually Mr. Fear will receive a plenary indulgence but not quite yet.
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    MrJones said:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10278424/Syria-crisis-Blair-to-blame-for-Cameron-downfall.html

    In among a load of silly stuff about how only bond villains can get hold of and use chemical weapons Gilligan makes the good point that part of the public resistance to Iraq 2 is Iraq 1 and in particular the gang of four and their dodgy dossier.

    If the political establishment want to lance that boil then considering the gang of four are too tainted to be useful to them any more they could dump a ton of official sh*te on them via Chilcot and close the chapter - justice seen to be done etc.

    You have to wonder what MI6 is up to when not escorting Her Majesty to major sporting events. Leaving to one side the Iraq dodgy dossier they cut and pasted from the internet, the intelligence case against Syria seems to have been based on Youtube videos, and now we are told that if Cameron had hung on for a week, they could have watched John Kerry's speech on telly to get some more evidence.
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    Mr. Charles, in addition the NSDAP stood for National Socialist Democratic Workers Party, which is hardly a rightwing sort of name.

    I'm sure it will come as a massive shock to you to be told that East Germany and North Korea were and are not democratic republics.
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    AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Roger said:

    @Avery

    "the things we should really be proud about Britain for – such as her place in the front lines of the struggles against Fascism, Communism, Islamofascism and other totalitarian ideologies"

    Much too negative. He'd have walk outs. People like looking forward. I was hoping that the momentum of the well received Olympic opening would consign Victorian relics like Roberts to a life outside of the public sphere

    Roger

    The momentum of the opening ceremony was one of the few things I thought we could have had more of.

    And my appreciation of Andrew Roberts is enhanced by a youthful appreciation of his daughter.

    I shall have no word spoken againts father or daughter.



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    Miss Plato, I was staggered to learn Ashdown is younger than Ming. 'tis most counter-intuitive.
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    JL.. Are you saying there was not a gassing of 1400 plus people last week..
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    What is not consistent is the Tory line that we should be sticking our noses into every fight around the world...

    I must have missed that bit of the Tory line. Could you provide a reference backing up that bizarre assertion?
    Yes they are very selective on which atrocity they want to interfere in , not just double standards, they have more faces than the town clock
This discussion has been closed.