BBC: Britain to lose seat on International Court of Justice for the first time since it was set up in 1946.
Another Brexit dividend...
Was that really Brexit related? Sounds as though India's candidate had the backing of a big majority in the general assembly.
I am confused as to why Britain should have a permanent member of the court anyway? The court has 15 members. Why is it that Britain should automatically be one of them continuously. As an example, Germany, Canada and Spain do not currently have seats. Nor do any of the Scandinavian countries. I don't see why there should be any assumption that certain countries should always have a seat.
I don't think it was ever a permanent seat, which just goes to show the strength of the UK judiciary.
Or the weakness of that of other countries.
In short, the UK's Greenwood was 9-5 up against India's Bhandari in the UN Security Council votes and about 120-70 down in the General Assembly. You need to win both and the UK was on the verge of trying to use the joint conference dispute mechanism, which would have swung it against Bhandari. But that mechanism is controversial, and might not even be lawful, and the UK pulled Greenwood's candidacy when it became clear that goose was cooked and stalemates would sour relations.
France, Sweden and Italy were, according to leaks, behind Greenwood. Fat use this EU membership is.
Far be it from me to defend the EU but in this case I really don't think it should or would have been here or there.
Kirsty Young, presenting the programme on Elizabeth and Philip’s 70th wedding anniversary, has a fat arse which is done no favours by the over-tight red dress she’s chosen.
And she’s wearing opaque tights with patent shoes. I ask you!
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
It's been a delicate dance that in fairness they have managed to pull off with reasonable success.
Now, perhaps they really are still less Brexity than the Tories, but there's still several options for people who want very little Brexitness*
*when ID cards are introduced, this will be one of the key measures recorded.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
+1
Happy for the UK to settle its liabilities with the EU when it leaves, but having a foreign government have jurisdiction within the UK is a bridge too far.
I would prefer for common sense to prevail and UK law to be sovereign within the UK, but if that is not possible then if EU citizens want to be governed by the ECJ, they should be given a choice: take British citizenship in order to remain in the UK, or move to an EU country where they can continue living under EU law.
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
We do the same with The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council with twelve independent nations.
I don't think the UK attached any conditionality on that. The other countries are free to cut their ties with that court at any time.
IIRC there is a condition that if any appeal is rejected it must not result in the death penalty for the appellant.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
It's been a delicate dance that in fairness they have managed to pull off with reasonable success.
Now, perhaps they really are still less Brexity than the Tories, but there's still several options for people who want very little Brexitness*
*when ID cards are introduced, this will be one of the key measures recorded.
As noted by Dead Ringers, Labour’s policy on Brexit can be likened to Schodinger’s Cat theory. Just as the cat is both dead and alive, Labour are both anti-Hard Brexit and for a Hard Brexit. This isn’t likely to change.
Re ID cards, I have my doubts the Tories will actually get to introduce that policy in full when it’s all said and done.
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
Probably the best pompous sanctimony in the world...
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
It's been a delicate dance that in fairness they have managed to pull off with reasonable success.
Now, perhaps they really are still less Brexity than the Tories, but there's still several options for people who want very little Brexitness*
*when ID cards are introduced, this will be one of the key measures recorded.
As noted by Dead Ringers, Labour’s policy on Brexit can be likened to Schodinger’s Cat theory. Just as the cat is both dead and alive, Labour are both anti-Hard Brexit and for a Hard Brexit. This isn’t likely to change.
Re ID cards, I have my doubts the Tories will actually get to introduce that policy in full when it’s all said and done.
I certainly hope not, but it seems to rear its head repeatedly.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
"And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?"
Bring it on! Let people choose for themselves if they wish to reatin their EU citizenship!
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
Oh do let me have my fun Ben. Uniondivvie is one of those sad cases on here that just loves to pop up with snide comments but then gets all huffy when someone takes him down a peg or two. And it really is fun to see him thrashing about with righteous indignation.
So the calendar is important Steve Baker suggesting spending during the campaign
Yes, thank you, I can read. Just because one is within the letter of the law and the other isn't, doesn't mean that the £9m spent days before the campaign began, using the official branding of Her Majesty's Government, wasn't deeply unfair. Remain did all they could to tie the leave campaign's hands behind their backs before the campaign even began. The result? 52/48
What someone said earlier, pretty much. No side came out of this well. The Remain campaign was rubbish and I felt ashamed and humilliated to be part of it. It was about the worst political campaign of my lifetime, only surpassed by strong and stable the following year.
Strong and stable was awful but it did at least scrape most seats in the Commons, Remain actually lost
Remain lost because it was headed by a set of leading Tories, who were not like by anybody (except Mr Eagles). It was an incompetent campaign, because they paid no heed to anybody else; and ran it on traditional Tory fear-campaign lines. There was also a lot of manipulation and skulduggery going on.
So Remain deserved to lose - but not in terms of the outcome we are getting. And Leave did not deserve to win either.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
+1
Happy for the UK to settle its liabilities with the EU when it leaves, but having a foreign government have jurisdiction within the UK is a bridge too far.
I would prefer for common sense to prevail and UK law to be sovereign within the UK, but if that is not possible then if EU citizens want to be governed by the ECJ, they should be given a choice: take British citizenship in order to remain in the UK, or move to an EU country where they can continue living under EU law.
At the end of the day money is just money. €10bn here or there is not a big deal in the long run. But if the government is truly going to accept this, I will have lost faith in them negotiating this deal. May should leave if she is so weak she accepts this to appease the Barniers and Soubrys of this world.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
We do the same with The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council with twelve independent nations.
I don't think the UK attached any conditionality on that. The other countries are free to cut their ties with that court at any time.
IIRC there is a condition that if any appeal is rejected it must not result in the death penalty for the appellant.
But they could leave without consequence if they objected to that?
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
I agree we need rights for UK citizens respected in the EU but I expect that will ultimately be the case. If British citizens want to take out EU citizenship that is up to them.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers behind them in current polls, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
Paging Surbiton, seems Jezza is not as 'born again Europhile' as you were suggesting at the weekend!
Jezza now a not-so-closeted Leaver.
Surprising that its a surprise to some. I still reckon he spoilt his Referendum vote by putting a cross against both.
I agree, I highly doubt Corbyn actually voted Remain even if he did not vote Leave either so he can technically say he did not vote for Brexit himself.
You are changing your tune. Even yesterday you were insisting that he was a Brexiter.
Kirsty Young, presenting the programme on Elizabeth and Philip’s 70th wedding anniversary, has a fat arse which is done no favours by the over-tight red dress she’s chosen.
And she’s wearing opaque tights with patent shoes. I ask you!
I blame Brexit.........
Strange world isn't it... If I as a bloke said that (not that I'd be so rude) I'd rightly be accused of objectifying women.
I didn't see the programme (no interest in the royals) but give Kirsty a break - what she looks like should be irrelevant.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
+1
Happy for the UK to settle its liabilities with the EU when it leaves, but having a foreign government have jurisdiction within the UK is a bridge too far.
I would prefer for common sense to prevail and UK law to be sovereign within the UK, but if that is not possible then if EU citizens want to be governed by the ECJ, they should be given a choice: take British citizenship in order to remain in the UK, or move to an EU country where they can continue living under EU law.
At the end of the day money is just money. €10bn here or there is not a big deal in the long run. But if the government is truly going to accept this, I will have lost faith in them negotiating this deal. May should leave if she is so weak she accepts this to appease the Barniers and Soubrys of this world.
Indeed. I don't like to use the word "betrayal" as it is so loaded and emotionally charged, but when I put my X in the "leave the EU" box, I rather assumed this would mean leaving the EU. If the ECJ are still able to overrule the British courts, I struggle to think of a more appropriate word.
10 billion or 100 billion, fine, so long as every last penny is costed. But European courts still overruling British ones? That is a betrayal of everything I voted for. And I will make that clear at the ballot box next time around.
So the calendar is important Steve Baker suggesting spending during the campaign
Yes, thank you, I can read. Just because one is within the letter of the law and the other isn't, doesn't mean that the £9m spent days before the campaign began, using the official branding of Her Majesty's Government, wasn't deeply unfair. Remain did all they could to tie the leave campaign's hands behind their backs before the campaign even began. The result? 52/48
What someone said earlier, pretty much. No side came out of this well. The Remain campaign was rubbish and I felt ashamed and humilliated to be part of it. It was about the worst political campaign of my lifetime, only surpassed by strong and stable the following year.
Strong and stable was awful but it did at least scrape most seats in the Commons, Remain actually lost
Remain lost because it was headed by a set of leading Tories, who were not like by anybody (except Mr Eagles). It was an incompetent campaign, because they paid no heed to anybody else; and ran it on traditional Tory fear-campaign lines. There was also a lot of manipulation and skulduggery going on.
So Remain deserved to lose - but not in terms of the outcome we are getting. And Leave did not deserve to win either.
So remind me, what did the LibDems do in the war, daddy?
Your party were also a prominent part of the shit-fest that was the Remain campaign.
Lucy Powell showing why she is no long Shadow Education Secretary.
Lucy Powell's blatant plan of positioning herself for the post-Corbyn world is rather painful to watch. Just out campaigning for colleagues, in a purely selfless manner...
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
Oh do let me have my fun Ben. Uniondivvie is one of those sad cases on here that just loves to pop up with snide comments but then gets all huffy when someone takes him down a peg or two. And it really is fun to see him thrashing about with righteous indignation.
Yeah fair enough, it's all part of the cut and thrust of PB. But the apparent lack of self-awareness in your response made me laugh!
So the calendar is important Steve Baker suggesting spending during the campaign
Yes, thank you, I can read. Just because one is within the letter of the law and the other isn't, doesn't mean that the £9m spent days before the campaign began, using the official branding of Her Majesty's Government, wasn't deeply unfair. Remain did all they could to tie the leave campaign's hands behind their backs before the campaign even began. The result? 52/48
What someone said earlier, pretty much. No side came out of this well. The Remain campaign was rubbish and I felt ashamed and humilliated to be part of it. It was about the worst political campaign of my lifetime, only surpassed by strong and stable the following year.
Strong and stable was awful but it did at least scrape most seats in the Commons, Remain actually lost
Remain lost because it was headed by a set of leading Tories, who were not like by anybody (except Mr Eagles). It was an incompetent campaign, because they paid no heed to anybody else; and ran it on traditional Tory fear-campaign lines. There was also a lot of manipulation and skulduggery going on.
So Remain deserved to lose - but not in terms of the outcome we are getting. And Leave did not deserve to win either.
So remind me, what did the LibDems do in the war, daddy?
Your party were also a prominent part of the shit-fest that was the Remain campaign.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
I agree we need rights for UK citizens respected in the EU but I expect that will ultimately be the case. If British citizens want to take out EU citizenship that is up to them.
So after voting for Brexit we could end up with ECJ sovereignty over tens of millions of British citizens? The government deserves to lose to Jeremy Corbyn if they agree to that.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
Oh do let me have my fun Ben. Uniondivvie is one of those sad cases on here that just loves to pop up with snide comments but then gets all huffy when someone takes him down a peg or two. And it really is fun to see him thrashing about with righteous indignation.
Yeah fair enough, it's all part of the cut and thrust of PB. But the apparent lack of self-awareness in your response made me laugh!
Kirsty Young, presenting the programme on Elizabeth and Philip’s 70th wedding anniversary, has a fat arse which is done no favours by the over-tight red dress she’s chosen.
And she’s wearing opaque tights with patent shoes. I ask you!
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
Oh do let me have my fun Ben. Uniondivvie is one of those sad cases on here that just loves to pop up with snide comments but then gets all huffy when someone takes him down a peg or two. And it really is fun to see him thrashing about with righteous indignation.
Yeah fair enough, it's all part of the cut and thrust of PB. But the apparent lack of self-awareness in your response made me laugh!
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
I agree we need rights for UK citizens respected in the EU but I expect that will ultimately be the case. If British citizens want to take out EU citizenship that is up to them.
So after voting for Brexit we could end up with ECJ sovereignty over tens of millions of British citizens? The government deserves to lose to Jeremy Corbyn if they agree to that.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs. In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this. Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
And people who care about the long-term economic stability and success of our country ought to be with the Lib Dems too.
We need the opinion polls to shift, and very strongly. Then the Labour leadership will shift too (maybe). And then the subjugated Conservatives will see the light too, and change track.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs. In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this. Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
And people who care about the long-term economic stability and success of our country ought to be with the Lib Dems too.
Many things ought to be, sadly.
Personally I think a strong third party is important*, so I hope they can recover, but the best opportunity in recent times proved a false dawn.
*The SNP are strong, but if they ever succeed they are removed from the equation, so I mean a strong third party in an all Britain context.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs. In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this. Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
And people who care about the long-term economic stability and success of our country ought to be with the Lib Dems too.
We need the opinion polls to shift, and very strongly. Then the Labour leadership will shift too (maybe). And then the subjugated Conservatives will see the light too, and change track.
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
+1
Happy for the UK to settle its liabilities with the EU when it leaves, but having a foreign government have jurisdiction within the UK is a bridge too far.
I would prefer for common sense to prevail and UK law to be sovereign within the UK, but if that is not possible then if EU citizens want to be governed by the ECJ, they should be given a choice: take British citizenship in order to remain in the UK, or move to an EU country where they can continue living under EU law.
At the end of the day money is just money. €10bn here or there is not a big deal in the long run. But if the government is truly going to accept this, I will have lost faith in them negotiating this deal. May should leave if she is so weak she accepts this to appease the Barniers and Soubrys of this world.
Indeed. I don't like to use the word "betrayal" as it is so loaded and emotionally charged, but when I put my X in the "leave the EU" box, I rather assumed this would mean leaving the EU. If the ECJ are still able to overrule the British courts, I struggle to think of a more appropriate word.
10 billion or 100 billion, fine, so long as every last penny is costed. But European courts still overruling British ones? That is a betrayal of everything I voted for. And I will make that clear at the ballot box next time around.
Presumably you would say the same about the European Court of Human Rights, which IIRC has nothing to do with the EU and wil be entirely unaffected by Brexit?
I'm by no means an ardent Brexiteer, but the ECJ having powers over UK residents with no reciprocity of a UK court having the same over Brits in the EU would be an outrage. I think the government would lose the faith of many people who are still sympathetic to them if they did that.
They are still ending free movement and leaving the single market and ending ECJ jurisdiction in most other areas. Though it may lose a few Tories to UKIP it may win back a few Remainers as well
Any deal should be reciprocal. Anything that isn't makes the UK clearly subservient to the EU. And what is to stop the EU giving out citizenship to British nationals so they can enforce their jurisdiction more widely?
I'm on record as saying the UK should be willing to pay more cash so I'm not a hardliner here, but this is a bridge too far.
I agree we need rights for UK citizens respected in the EU but I expect that will ultimately be the case. If British citizens want to take out EU citizenship that is up to them.
So after voting for Brexit we could end up with ECJ sovereignty over tens of millions of British citizens? The government deserves to lose to Jeremy Corbyn if they agree to that.
Only during a transition period for those who do not live on the continent. We will also still leave the EU and end free movement and replace it with a points system.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
About 20% of the electorate are 'hard-core Remainers' with the LDs still only on about 6 or 7% most of them are still voting Labour.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs. In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this. Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
And people who care about the long-term economic stability and success of our country ought to be with the Lib Dems too.
We need the opinion polls to shift, and very strongly. Then the Labour leadership will shift too (maybe). And then the subjugated Conservatives will see the light too, and change track.
Keeping stability when stability means stagnant productivity and wages, falling home ownership, a trillion quid borrowed in a decade and the largest current account deficit on record is not a good idea.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs. In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this. Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
And people who care about the long-term economic stability and success of our country ought to be with the Lib Dems too.
We need the opinion polls to shift, and very strongly. Then the Labour leadership will shift too (maybe). And then the subjugated Conservatives will see the light too, and change track.
Keeping stability when stability means stagnant productivity and wages, falling home ownership, a trillion quid borrowed in a decade and the largest current account deficit on record is not a good idea.
Which is why Corbynism appeals. That much is clear from the Labour documentary.
Much as I am pleased about it, I must admit I am also very surprised. I genuinely thought Corbyn had seen the way things were going in his party and would have voted for the amendment.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
A commitment to a second referendum allows the cat to be in both states at once, at least for a while.
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
Oh do let me have my fun Ben. Uniondivvie is one of those sad cases on here that just loves to pop up with snide comments but then gets all huffy when someone takes him down a peg or two. And it really is fun to see him thrashing about with righteous indignation.
Yeah fair enough, it's all part of the cut and thrust of PB. But the apparent lack of self-awareness in your response made me laugh!
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Kirsty Young, presenting the programme on Elizabeth and Philip’s 70th wedding anniversary, has a fat arse which is done no favours by the over-tight red dress she’s chosen.
And she’s wearing opaque tights with patent shoes. I ask you!
I blame Brexit.........
Strange world isn't it... If I as a bloke said that (not that I'd be so rude) I'd rightly be accused of objectifying women.
I didn't see the programme (no interest in the royals) but give Kirsty a break - what she looks like should be irrelevant.
Nowadays so many of us watch on devices that stretch the picture to fit the screen, or the graphics format we have selected.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs. In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this. Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
And people who care about the long-term economic stability and success of our country ought to be with the Lib Dems too.
We need the opinion polls to shift, and very strongly. Then the Labour leadership will shift too (maybe). And then the subjugated Conservatives will see the light too, and change track.
Keeping stability when stability means stagnant productivity and wages, falling home ownership, a trillion quid borrowed in a decade and the largest current account deficit on record is not a good idea.
That depends - it makes taking a risk more likely to be worth it to improve, but that 'stability' will still be looked back on fondly if the risk doesn't pay off, and in fact it would have been a good idea.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everythingthat is bad would have been different.
I agree -- that is why I said Corbyn could pull the same trick off again in 2022.
My point is that he won’t be able to pull the trick off if the Government falls because of Brexit. Then the cat is dead. Or alive.
It seems to me it is best for Corbyn if he never has to open the box.
But, it is not best for Remainers. They need Corbyn to open the box.
I just loved the clip of his wife telling him off for promising interviews after his count was to be announced. Wonder who wears the trousers in the family home in Switzerland?
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
A post Brexit election may be a re-joining on if one of the major party's decides to bite the bullet
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
Yep, there is a delicious irony: the Tories caused this; they will need to fix it or, more likely, take the blame.
Which would be fine and dandy, were it not for the fact that they are screwing the country in the meantime
I just loved the clip of his wife telling him off for promising interviews after his count was to be announced. Wonder who wears the trousers in the family home in Switzerland?
Switzerland .... you mean he doesn’t really live in a damp terraced house in Aberavon.
At the end of the day money is just money. €10bn here or there is not a big deal in the long run. But if the government is truly going to accept this, I will have lost faith in them negotiating this deal. May should leave if she is so weak she accepts this to appease the Barniers and Soubrys of this world.
Indeed. I don't like to use the word "betrayal" as it is so loaded and emotionally charged, but when I put my X in the "leave the EU" box, I rather assumed this would mean leaving the EU. If the ECJ are still able to overrule the British courts, I struggle to think of a more appropriate word.
10 billion or 100 billion, fine, so long as every last penny is costed. But European courts still overruling British ones? That is a betrayal of everything I voted for. And I will make that clear at the ballot box next time around.
Presumably you would say the same about the European Court of Human Rights, which IIRC has nothing to do with the EU and wil be entirely unaffected by Brexit?
The ECHR has nothing to do with the EU, as you rightly point out, and therefore when I voted last year I wasn't voting against it.
However if a separate referendum was held to leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR, I would. Its role in preventing us from deporting Abu Hamza was just one example of why I think it is utterly wrong. I'm sure there are many others. The utter nonsense about the way the "right to a family life" is interpreted and so on.
The British legal system is quite robust enough without needing it. This could be backed up by a written bill of rights passed by Parliament and endorsed by the people via the ballot box.
I really hope not. Why should EU citizens have more rights than UK ones?
Ardent Brexiteer alert.
Um No. Just someone who believes in everyone being equal before the law. Obviously a concept that is alien to you - along with basic principles of democracy from what I have seen.
Good of you to jump in. We've obviously reached the Tyndall shed, fractious insults from now on I guess.
You make stupid comments and you get shot down for them. Not sure what you have to moan about.
In case you missed it I have posted throughout the day. If people make sensible comments, even if I don't agree with them then they get polite answers. If they behave like idiots they deserve all they get.
You can thank me later.
Aggressive & pompous sanctimony plus fractious insults, my cup runneth over!
I know it is not necessarily your fault that you are both rather dumb and consistently wrong in just about everything you write. But I do see it as a public service to point out your idiocy. Plus I get a great deal of satisfaction from it. It is akin to swatting flies.
Haha Richard, your response comes across as the very definition of pompous sanctimony - I think Uniondivvie nailed it!
Oh do let me have my fun Ben. Uniondivvie is one of those sad cases on here that just loves to pop up with snide comments but then gets all huffy when someone takes him down a peg or two. And it really is fun to see him thrashing about with righteous indignation.
Yeah fair enough, it's all part of the cut and thrust of PB. But the apparent lack of self-awareness in your response made me laugh!
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
Yep, there is a delicious irony: the Tories caused this; they will need to fix it or, more likely, take the blame.
Which would be fine and dandy, were it not for the fact that they are screwing the country in the meantime
Some may point to labours policies that led to rise a huge rise in anti-eu sentiment.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
Kirsty Young, presenting the programme on Elizabeth and Philip’s 70th wedding anniversary, has a fat arse which is done no favours by the over-tight red dress she’s chosen.
And she’s wearing opaque tights with patent shoes. I ask you!
I blame Brexit.........
Strange world isn't it... If I as a bloke said that (not that I'd be so rude) I'd rightly be accused of objectifying women.
I didn't see the programme (no interest in the royals) but give Kirsty a break - what she looks like should be irrelevant.
No objectifying going on. Merely commenting on what someone is wearing. She’s quite attractive and has a lovely voice. But like many of us she is broad beamed round her hips and does not have slender legs. A tight fitting dress does not suit her. And if you’re appearing on television you ought to choose something that makes you look elegant not something that draws attention to your worst features.
I would be - and often am - equally blunt about badly dressed men. Put it down to the Italian in me. My Italian family would never have dreamt of going out, even if only to the grocery to buy some spinach, without being properly dressed. One should try not to be an eyesore in public.
It is not hard to be well dressed and elegant. A full length mirror often helps.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
Perhaps, though some hardcore Remainers may drift to the LDs.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
Yep, there is a delicious irony: the Tories caused this; they will need to fix it or, more likely, take the blame.
Which would be fine and dandy, were it not for the fact that they are screwing the country in the meantime
Ben - how did the Tories cause this - 52% voted to leave, so they are carrying out a democratic mandate
But asked whether she would wait [to trigger Article 50] until after the German elections in September 2017, as George Osborne has suggested, to avoid inconveniencing Berlin she said: “We will decide when to do it when we think it is right for the United Kingdom.” ... Many Tory MPs want May to call an early general election to put Labour out of business for a generation, but she disagrees: “I think it’s right that the next general election is in 2020. This isn’t about political games, it’s about what is right for the country. I think an early general election would introduce a note of instability for people.”
But asked whether she would wait until after the German elections in September 2017, as George Osborne has suggested, to avoid inconveniencing Berlin she said: “We will decide when to do it when we think it is right for the United Kingdom.” ... Many Tory MPs want May to call an early general election to put Labour out of business for a generation, but she disagrees: “I think it’s right that the next general election is in 2020. This isn’t about political games, it’s about what is right for the country. I think an early general election would introduce a note of instability for people.”
Yes, her change of mind on that always rang hollow.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
Yep, there is a delicious irony: the Tories caused this; they will need to fix it or, more likely, take the blame.
Which would be fine and dandy, were it not for the fact that they are screwing the country in the meantime
Some may point to labours policies that led to rise a huge rise in anti-eu sentiment.
To be honest Francis, I have learnt by now that it is always Labour's fault no matter what...
Appeasement Suez crisis 3-day week 3 million unemployed Black Monday Black Wednesday Brexit
Yes, I know the Tories were in power at these times but it couldn't possibly be their fault, oh no. How silly of me to think it for a moment!
But asked whether she would wait until after the German elections in September 2017, as George Osborne has suggested, to avoid inconveniencing Berlin she said: “We will decide when to do it when we think it is right for the United Kingdom.” ... Many Tory MPs want May to call an early general election to put Labour out of business for a generation, but she disagrees: “I think it’s right that the next general election is in 2020. This isn’t about political games, it’s about what is right for the country. I think an early general election would introduce a note of instability for people.”
Yes, her change of mind on that always rang hollow.
It's interesting that her change of mind on the second point came after she kept to her plan on the first.
My hunch is that she realised she'd made a mistake in triggering Article 50 the moment the EU published their negotiating guidelines, and then became reckless and decided to go for an election thinking a big majority would somehow change things.
To be honest Francis, I have learnt by now that it is always Labour's fault no matter what...
Appeasement Suez crisis 3-day week 3 million unemployed Black Monday Black Wednesday Brexit
Yes, I know the Tories were in power at these times but it couldn't possibly be their fault, oh no. How silly of me to think it for a moment!
You don't think that Labour's open door migration policy had any effect on people feelings about the EU / Brexit? If we trace the history of how we got here, we saw a massive increase in UKIP, which ultimately forced a referendum.
But asked whether she would wait [to trigger Article 50] until after the German elections in September 2017, as George Osborne has suggested, to avoid inconveniencing Berlin she said: “We will decide when to do it when we think it is right for the United Kingdom.” ... Many Tory MPs want May to call an early general election to put Labour out of business for a generation, but she disagrees: “I think it’s right that the next general election is in 2020. This isn’t about political games, it’s about what is right for the country. I think an early general election would introduce a note of instability for people.”
George Osborne was right and Theresa May was wrong.
What will TM do when the EU says 40bln isn't enough and they want 60bln?
#GetTheresaOut
Shit negotiating. You make the EU decide - £40m (but that gets us XYZ) - or no pounds no pence and WTO terms. Which do you want, guys? Let us know by the weekend......
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
We have no idea what Brexit Corbyn will pursue because he indicates both ways. I get the impression though that Corbyn doesn’t care much about Brexit, which is why he can do this.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
No, Labour still has well over 50% of Remainers, there is potential for the LDs to make some progress with them at Labour's expense.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
You said ‘hard-core’ Remainers, not Remainers generally. A hardcore Remainer is of the ‘stop Brexit’ variety; not all Remainers think this way - indeed IIRC most are resigned to Brexit happening.
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
It is proead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
Yep, there is a delicious irony: the Tories caused this; they will need to fix it or, more likely, take the blame.
Which would be fine and dandy, were it not for the fact that they are screwing the country in the meantime
Some may point to labours policies that led to rise a huge rise in anti-eu sentiment.
To be honest Francis, I have learnt by now that it is always Labour's fault no matter what...
Appeasement Suez crisis 3-day week 3 million unemployed Black Monday Black Wednesday Brexit
Yes, I know the Tories were in power at these times but it couldn't possibly be their fault, oh no. How silly of me to think it for a moment!
If the Tories deserve more blame for offering the vote, and the cackhanded way in handling it since, fine, but they cannot be blamed for the whole of it or way the public voted, as Tories, UKIP, Labour, even LD and others voted for Brexit.
The way Brexit has been managed has to primarily fall on the Tories, but Brexit itself you have to blame the public for the outcome, and it isn't ridiculous to ascribe some of the reasoning on things that happened before the Tories were in power (even if it would be ridiculous to suggest it all fell on things that happened before the Tories). But people don't like to be seen to blame the public.
But asked whether she would wait until after the German elections in September 2017, as George Osborne has suggested, to avoid inconveniencing Berlin she said: “We will decide when to do it when we think it is right for the United Kingdom.” ... Many Tory MPs want May to call an early general election to put Labour out of business for a generation, but she disagrees: “I think it’s right that the next general election is in 2020. This isn’t about political games, it’s about what is right for the country. I think an early general election would introduce a note of instability for people.”
Yes, her change of mind on that always rang hollow.
It's interesting that her change of mind on the second point came after she kept to her plan on the first.
My hunch is that she realised she'd made a mistake in triggering Article 50 the moment the EU published their negotiating guidelines, and then became reckless and decided to go for an election thinking a big majority would somehow change things.
It was so odd - when A50 was triggered so many of us assumed therefore an early GE had definitively been ruled out because it would eat into the negotiating time and butt up against German elections and so on, IIRC when there was news of a big announcement some even speculated it was a royal death kind of situation.
If the Tories deserve more blame for offering the vote, and the cackhanded way in handling it since, fine, but they cannot be blamed for the whole of it or way the public voted, as Tories, UKIP, Labour, even LD and others voted for Brexit.
The way Brexit has been managed has to primarily fall on the Tories, but Brexit itself you have to blame the public for the outcome, and it isn't ridiculous to ascribe some of the reasoning on things that happened before the Tories were in power (even if it would be ridiculous to suggest it all fell on things that happened before the Tories). But people don't like to be seen to blame the public.
Tories / Cameron big fault wasn't offering the vote, we had got to stage with Lisbon Treaty etc where a vote was going to have to come. It just wasn't possible for politicians to keep ignoring the fact the EU was a very different beast to the thing we joined and people deserved a say on if we should continue being part of the project..
It was the absolute piss poor deal he got, which was so bad he didn't mention it after about a week and had to result to project fear. Although, I also blame the EU as well.
A sensible bit of comprise and we could have avoided all of this.
And yet, Labour will be still be seen among many as the ‘anti-Brexit’ party, while keeping a hold of Labour Leavers because of things like this. Hilarious.
It is probably true that Corbyn doesn’t greatly care about Brexit, and can benefit from an ambiguous position at the moment. And maybe he can do that in 2022.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
If an election happens after Brexit, the box is never opened.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
Yep, there is a delicious irony: the Tories caused this; they will need to fix it or, more likely, take the blame.
Which would be fine and dandy, were it not for the fact that they are screwing the country in the meantime
Ben - how did the Tories cause this - 52% voted to leave, so they are carrying out a democratic mandate
Simple my friend: 1. By commiting to an ill-thought out referendum with no clear definition of what Leave might mean (from staying in the single market /customs union through to hard brexit); 2. By not having any sensible majority criteria (I agree 52%-48% is a majority but if it had been the other way round would Leave have shut up?. What if it had been 50.1 to 49.9? And what about the fact that only 38% of the electorate actually felt strongly enough to vote Leave? 3. By having absolutely no plan for a Leave vote. And... 4. By squabbling like schoolchildren over how to manage Brexit.
Meanwhile there is no active government of the things that this country really needs to address (public services, productivity, infrastructure, social care, housing, etc. etc). All totally avoidable.
What will TM do when the EU says 40bln isn't enough and they want 60bln?
#GetTheresaOut
Shit negotiating. You make the EU decide - £40m (but that gets us XYZ) - or no pounds no pence and WTO terms. Which do you want, guys? Let us know by the weekend......
I just loved the clip of his wife telling him off for promising interviews after his count was to be announced. Wonder who wears the trousers in the family home in Switzerland?
Switzerland .... you mean he doesn’t really live in a damp terraced house in Aberavon.
ROFL! Got given a lot of interesting information about the Cardiff Taffia at the previous leadership elections, most of which can't be used for obvious legal reasons... Owen Smith and the help his Da' gave him in getting into the BBC and his subsequent political career, or anything about the rigging of votes at CLP's. It's a pity that all the information was lost when I had to reformat my hard drive....
Comments
And she’s wearing opaque tights with patent shoes. I ask you!
I blame Brexit.........
Now, perhaps they really are still less Brexity than the Tories, but there's still several options for people who want very little Brexitness*
*when ID cards are introduced, this will be one of the key measures recorded.
Happy for the UK to settle its liabilities with the EU when it leaves, but having a foreign government have jurisdiction within the UK is a bridge too far.
I would prefer for common sense to prevail and UK law to be sovereign within the UK, but if that is not possible then if EU citizens want to be governed by the ECJ, they should be given a choice: take British citizenship in order to remain in the UK, or move to an EU country where they can continue living under EU law.
Re ID cards, I have my doubts the Tories will actually get to introduce that policy in full when it’s all said and done.
In government though it confirms Corbyn will not be pursuing a so-called 'soft Brexit' in the long term if he does ultimately become PM which is good news for Brexiteers.
Bring it on! Let people choose for themselves if they wish to reatin their EU citizenship!
So Remain deserved to lose - but not in terms of the outcome we are getting. And Leave did not deserve to win either.
Hardcore Remainers are already with the LDs.
Corbyn is not reversing Brexit and not even committed to a permanent soft Brexit, that much is clear.
I didn't see the programme (no interest in the royals) but give Kirsty a break - what she looks like should be irrelevant.
10 billion or 100 billion, fine, so long as every last penny is costed. But European courts still overruling British ones? That is a betrayal of everything I voted for. And I will make that clear at the ballot box next time around.
Your party were also a prominent part of the shit-fest that was the Remain campaign.
After Corbyn and McDonnell voting with David Davis to support leaving the single market and customs union consensus in labour may be a big problem
We knew that Corbyn wasn’t going to reverse Brexit. Re a soft Brexit, that’s why I said Labour indicate both ways.
We need the opinion polls to shift, and very strongly. Then the Labour leadership will shift too (maybe). And then the subjugated Conservatives will see the light too, and change track.
Personally I think a strong third party is important*, so I hope they can recover, but the best opportunity in recent times proved a false dawn.
*The SNP are strong, but if they ever succeed they are removed from the equation, so I mean a strong third party in an all Britain context.
However, the most likely the reason for the Government to fall before 2022 is Brexit.
Either Corbyn (plus allies) take over, in which case he will have to implement a Brexit policy.
Or there will be an election. A Brexit election, in which the top priority will be to figure out what to do about Brexit. Corbyn will have to say what he plans to do,
Schrodinger’s cat is only dead and alive if the box is not opened. Once the box is opened, the wave function collapses, and the cat is alive.
Or dead.
Everything that is bad would have been different.
http://www.wahlrecht.de/umfragen/
My point is that he won’t be able to pull the trick off if the Government falls because of Brexit. Then the cat is dead. Or alive.
It seems to me it is best for Corbyn if he never has to open the box.
But, it is not best for Remainers. They need Corbyn to open the box.
Which would be fine and dandy, were it not for the fact that they are screwing the country in the meantime
I think they have borrowed it from us nowadays to be fair.
However if a separate referendum was held to leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR, I would. Its role in preventing us from deporting Abu Hamza was just one example of why I think it is utterly wrong. I'm sure there are many others. The utter nonsense about the way the "right to a family life" is interpreted and so on.
The British legal system is quite robust enough without needing it. This could be backed up by a written bill of rights passed by Parliament and endorsed by the people via the ballot box.
I would be - and often am - equally blunt about badly dressed men. Put it down to the Italian in me. My Italian family would never have dreamt of going out, even if only to the grocery to buy some spinach, without being properly dressed. One should try not to be an eyesore in public.
It is not hard to be well dressed and elegant. A full length mirror often helps.
But asked whether she would wait [to trigger Article 50] until after the German elections in September 2017, as George Osborne has suggested, to avoid inconveniencing Berlin she said: “We will decide when to do it when we think it is right for the United Kingdom.”
...
Many Tory MPs want May to call an early general election to put Labour out of business for a generation, but she disagrees: “I think it’s right that the next general election is in 2020. This isn’t about political games, it’s about what is right for the country. I think an early general election would introduce a note of instability for people.”
Interesting take on housing. The situation in complex, of course. The FT has a decent, nuanced piece here;
https://www.google.co.uk/search?dcr=0&source=hp&ei=3VoTWqSjHsTUsAeSiZPoDw&q=https://www.ft.com/content/20b3046c-cab2-11e7-ab18-7a9fb7d6163e
My take on it: There aren't any simple, pain free solutions. I recon we're basically going Japanese in the long term.
Appeasement
Suez crisis
3-day week
3 million unemployed
Black Monday
Black Wednesday
Brexit
Yes, I know the Tories were in power at these times but it couldn't possibly be their fault, oh no. How silly of me to think it for a moment!
#GetTheresaOut
My hunch is that she realised she'd made a mistake in triggering Article 50 the moment the EU published their negotiating guidelines, and then became reckless and decided to go for an election thinking a big majority would somehow change things.
COLOUR ME STUNNED.
The way Brexit has been managed has to primarily fall on the Tories, but Brexit itself you have to blame the public for the outcome, and it isn't ridiculous to ascribe some of the reasoning on things that happened before the Tories were in power (even if it would be ridiculous to suggest it all fell on things that happened before the Tories). But people don't like to be seen to blame the public.
https://twitter.com/afneil/status/932742227218059265
It was the absolute piss poor deal he got, which was so bad he didn't mention it after about a week and had to result to project fear. Although, I also blame the EU as well.
A sensible bit of comprise and we could have avoided all of this.
1. By commiting to an ill-thought out referendum with no clear definition of what Leave might mean (from staying in the single market /customs union through to hard brexit);
2. By not having any sensible majority criteria (I agree 52%-48% is a majority but if it had been the other way round would Leave have shut up?. What if it had been 50.1 to 49.9? And what about the fact that only 38% of the electorate actually felt strongly enough to vote Leave?
3. By having absolutely no plan for a Leave vote. And...
4. By squabbling like schoolchildren over how to manage Brexit.
Meanwhile there is no active government of the things that this country really needs to address (public services, productivity, infrastructure, social care, housing, etc. etc). All totally avoidable.