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24

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    It’s simple really. We control immigration

    This doesn't look much like control to me

    Britain must accept more immigrants if it wants a free trade deal
    A free trade deal with the EU will require compliance with many EU rules too:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/933953638824841216

    The problem that we have is that beggar's cannot be choosers. For each trade negotiation we are in a weak negotiating position, like an addict needing a fix.
    The prize is there for May's government in that if they can knuckle down until after Brexit then they will have survived the greatest onslaught in the media including significant help from inside their own country via useful idiots in many a year.

    Once Brexit is done don't be surprised if the anit-May media blitz slithers off into the night and the uplands will be a lot more sunlit.
    As they are for Corbyn?

    I do think Labour are kidding themselves about an easy win next time. As long as Corbyn and McDonnell are significant players I really think they will struggle to breach 280.

    But equally to say the government will get through Brexit and then things will improve is to focus on one thing. Grenfell is not linked to Brexit but there are very awkward questions for all parties - especially the government- as to why sprinklers were not installed, and May is being evasive on that. The economy is due a downturn. There is the serious threat of war in the Far East.

    I can foresee many ways the government can go tits up. What I struggle to see is Labour replacing them unless something career-ending happens to those two who are wrecking it. Which is a bit of a nightmare scenario really.
    I don't think anyone on the Labour side is predicting an easy win, indeed Momentum seem to have taken to the cult of shoe leather more than an LD Focus team.

    It may seem difficult to find Lab gains, but that was near universal opinion here in May 2017, and many were predicting massive losses (Bolsover hubris!).

    Labour is certainly back in the game and has its mojo back.
    That people were wrong before doesn't 'certainly' mean labour have their mojo back and will improve on their position again. I think they will, but there's nothing certain about an advance in position, even if there is in morale, u-turning anti Corbynites and other party supporters backing them.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    I'd imagine psychologists will shortly devise a specific term for this sort of bizarre self loathing phenomenon that seems to have struck down the luvvie sector of late.

    https://twitter.com/chrisdeerin/status/933967626388287488


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Latest Irish poll

    Fine Gail 34
    Fianna Fail 31
    Sinn Fein 14
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Irish_general_election#Opinion_polls
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations! a beautiful day for it.
    Indeed. Just the sort of crisp, clear late autumn day I love.

    I've always preferred autumn to summer. Maybe that is a bit weird?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr Meeks,

    "You can tell it's pantomime season. Bang on cue, pantomime demons are being conjured up."

    Be fair, the EU can be its own worst enemy at times. Juncker and Barnier?
  • HYUFD said:

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Many congratulations Mr and Mrs Borough!
    :lol:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Heh - I've been with my other half for about eight years now, we're engaged but all focus is on trying to move house right now !

    Congratulations, enjoy your big day. :)
  • Rest assured that the marriage vows include a clause about still being allowed the odd political flutter or two...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    Scott_P said:

    It’s simple really. We control immigration

    This doesn't look much like control to me

    Britain must accept more immigrants if it wants a free trade deal
    A free trade deal with the EU will require compliance with many EU rules too:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/933953638824841216

    The problem that we have is that beggar's cannot be choosers. For each trade negotiation we are in a weak negotiating position, like an addict needing a fix.
    The prize is there for May's government in that if they can knuckle down until after Brexit then they will have survived the greatest onslaught in the media including significant help from inside their own country via useful idiots in many a year.

    Once Brexit is done don't be surprised if the anit-May media blitz slithers off into the night and the uplands will be a lot more sunlit.
    As they are for Corbyn?

    I do think Labour are kidding themselves about an easy win next time. As long as Corbyn and McDonnell are significant players I really think they will struggle to breach 280.

    But equally to say the government will get through Brexit and then things will improve is to focus on one thing. Grenfell is not linked to Brexit but there are very awkward questions for all parties - especially the government- as to why sprinklers were not installed, and May is being evasive on that. The economy is due a downturn. There is the serious threat of war in the Far East.

    I can foresee many ways the government can go tits up. What I struggle to see is Labour replacing them unless something career-ending happens to those two who are wrecking it. Which is a bit of a nightmare scenario really.
    Don't think we can say this far out. I think Jezza is an extremely marmite leader, and if normal political gravity was in operation then he will lose. But, the voters are in a volatile mood, and it is possible that a generational sea change is happening and Jezza will be swept to power with a ticket to change everything.
    If the average age of becoming a home owner continues to rise almost as fast as people are getting older, it's only a matter of time.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    edited November 2017

    DavidL said:

    Astonishing the government have managed to maintain that record given the position they were left in in 2010. And the increases in 2000-2006 created much of the structural deficit we are still trying to fix to this day. Grossly irresponsible and incompetent. Brown in a nutshell.
    That's tosh - the financial crisis followed by GO's failed austerity experiment and the consequent decade of poor growth has led to our current debt predicament.

    Good to see that the Tories are quietly sweeping their neo-liberal ideological approach under the carpet and (whisper it quietly) returning to Keynesian common-sense.
    "returning to Keynesian common-sense"

    Well, up to a point Lord Cropper. Keynes would have said spending should have been done during the worst of the downturn, not ten years later.

    Any spending that Hammond is doing as been entirely forced on him by Jezza's unexpected success campaigning against austerity.
    Yes - both good points. If only someone had pointed out the idiocy of GO's policies in 2010, eh!?

    Anyway - many congratulations on your wedding day!
  • DavidL said:

    Astonishing the government have managed to maintain that record given the position they were left in in 2010. And the increases in 2000-2006 created much of the structural deficit we are still trying to fix to this day. Grossly irresponsible and incompetent. Brown in a nutshell.
    That's tosh - the financial crisis followed by GO's failed austerity experiment and the consequent decade of poor growth has led to our current debt predicament.

    Good to see that the Tories are quietly sweeping their neo-liberal ideological approach under the carpet and (whisper it quietly) returning to Keynesian common-sense.
    "returning to Keynesian common-sense"

    Well, up to a point Lord Cropper. Keynes would have said spending should have been done during the worst of the downturn, not ten years later.

    Any spending that Hammond is doing as been entirely forced on him by Jezza's unexpected success campaigning against austerity.
    Yes - both good points. If only someone had pointed out the idiocy of GO's policies in 2010, eh!?

    Take a bow, Ed Balls. He was right.

    Much good it has done him or his good lady wife.
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
  • Mr. Borough (and Mrs Borough-to-be), congratulations :)
  • Pulpstar said:

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Heh - I've been with my other half for about eight years now, we're engaged but all focus is on trying to move house right now !

    Congratulations, enjoy your big day. :)
    Thanks and good luck when you do tie the knot. Best to move first. Too many life changing events at once is too stressful imho.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Rest assured that the marriage vows include a clause about still being allowed the odd political flutter or two...

    Two conditions attached to those I find...

    Provided you win
    All big winnings WILL be taxed :D
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    DavidL said:

    Astonishing the government have managed to maintain that record given the position they were left in in 2010. And the increases in 2000-2006 created much of the structural deficit we are still trying to fix to this day. Grossly irresponsible and incompetent. Brown in a nutshell.
    That's tosh - the financial crisis followed by GO's failed austerity experiment and the consequent decade of poor growth has led to our current debt predicament.

    Good to see that the Tories are quietly sweeping their neo-liberal ideological approach under the carpet and (whisper it quietly) returning to Keynesian common-sense.
    "returning to Keynesian common-sense"

    Well, up to a point Lord Cropper. Keynes would have said spending should have been done during the worst of the downturn, not ten years later.

    Any spending that Hammond is doing as been entirely forced on him by Jezza's unexpected success campaigning against austerity.
    Yes - both good points. If only someone had pointed out the idiocy of GO's policies in 2010, eh!?

    Take a bow, Ed Balls. He was right.

    Much good it has done him or his good lady wife.
    What Ed Balls proposed, in overall spending terms, is pretty much what actually happened under the coalition. Whether he was right is another matter entirely.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations :blush:
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    :lol: I have no idea what he has up his sleeve (worryingly).

    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Rest assured that the marriage vows include a clause about still being allowed the odd political flutter or two...

    Two conditions attached to those I find...

    Provided you win
    All big winnings WILL be taxed :D
    Certainly the latter. I am expected to take the soon-to-be Mrs Borough out for dinner if there are any decent political bet wins.

    So, come on Hunt, get yourself elected as leader asap and we can have a luxury weekend away!!
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
    Not all the Best Men who use it survive.......
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Many congratulations. All the very best to both of you on your 'so special day'
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
    Not all the Best Men who use it survive.......
    :lol: x 2
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    And how lucky rottenborough is to have found such a beautiful and intelligent wife, and how lucky Mrs Borough is to have gained a lovely bunch of flowers.
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Many congratulations. All the very best to both of you on your 'so special day'
    Cheers.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Many congratulations. All the very best to both of you on your 'so special day'
    Cheers.
    I take it that the Boroughs will be having a coalition arrangement* and that FPTP triumphs.

    *the devil is in the manifesto detail as I recall...

  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Many congratulations. All the very best to both of you on your 'so special day'
    Cheers.
    I take it that the Boroughs will be having a coalition arrangement* and that FPTP triumphs.

    *the devil is in the manifesto detail as I recall...

    AV is being used.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Congratulations to Mr Borough and the soon-to-be Mrs Borough.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Many congratulations!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    edited November 2017
    The other old joke is about the husband using four-letter words..... cook, wash, dust
  • My favourite old wedding joke is about the significance of the ceremony for the bride. First she walks up the aisle. Then she stands at the altar. Finally everyone sings a hymn. Thus producing the bride's mantra: "aisle, altar, hymn".
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    My favourite old wedding joke is about the significance of the ceremony for the bride. First she walks up the aisle. Then she stands at the altar. Finally everyone sings a hymn. Thus producing the bride's mantra: "aisle, altar, hymn".

    That's really very good.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Every best wish to you both. (The Good Lady Wifi and myself tied the knot after being together for 19 years. The best things are not rushed into....)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    Over the last few years, I've seen a few loads like this travelling along the A428 from St Neots towards Cambridge. I'd always wondered what they were doing:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-suffolk-42099175/how-to-move-a-giant-2m-yacht-across-dry-land
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
    Not all the Best Men who use it survive.......
    The, er, bravest Best Man speech I heard of started in silence. The best man took a plate, and put it in front of the Bride. He then put a piece of lettuce on the plate. He then stood back and watched the Bride for a bit, all the while in silence.

    He opened with "I just wondered whether she ate like one as well...."
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
    Not all the Best Men who use it survive.......
    The, er, bravest Best Man speech I heard of started in silence. The best man took a plate, and put it in front of the Bride. He then put a piece of lettuce on the plate. He then stood back and watched the Bride for a bit, all the while in silence.

    He opened with "I just wondered whether she ate like one as well...."
    I told a variant of that joke at my brother's wedding, except without a prop. Halfway through, one of the bride's uncles - a rather sombre, religious man - said: "You're not going to say that one, are you?"

    When I saw him a few years later, the first thing he said to me was: "I did not approve of your speech, young man."
  • CD13 said:

    Inability to control your own borders is the definition of a vassal country. I'm sure not even the most fanatical Remainer would suggest this.

    Where does that definition come from? Thinking about the history of countries, most of them have land borders, and I'd be surprised if many of them had the practical ability to stop people crossing them for much of that time, at least in peacetime.
  • Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585
  • That aneaemic growth in actual and projected health spending shrinks further once you factor in the rapid and consistent 0.8% growth per annum in the UK's population in recent years. The net per capita growth is negligible.

    As a consequence, comparative international studies of UK health spending show it once again falling as a share of GDP, in contrast to the trend in almost all other advanced nations.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    DCMS should just use the submissions for a UK-wide 2023 Cities of Culture instead.
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
    Not all the Best Men who use it survive.......
    The, er, bravest Best Man speech I heard of started in silence. The best man took a plate, and put it in front of the Bride. He then put a piece of lettuce on the plate. He then stood back and watched the Bride for a bit, all the while in silence.

    He opened with "I just wondered whether she ate like one as well...."
    Blimey. Brave Minister, brave...
  • Mr. Divvie, read a tweet from the official Leeds campaign the other day that they'd been in contact with both DCMS and the EU over the matter, and that they had no reason not to push ahead with the October submission (as did the other four cities).

    The EU could've made the situation clear long ago. Waiting until after submissions were made was, to use internet parlance, a dick move.

    F1: not much action on track because it's a lot hotter than qualifying or the race will be.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    That aneaemic growth in actual and projected health spending shrinks further once you factor in the rapid and consistent 0.8% growth per annum in the UK's population in recent years. The net per capita growth is negligible.

    As a consequence, comparative international studies of UK health spending show it once again falling as a share of GDP, in contrast to the trend in almost all other advanced nations.

    The real increase in spend per capita would be a more useful chart.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited November 2017

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    DCMS should just use the submissions for a UK-wide 2023 Cities of Culture instead.
    You're not of the view (vigorously expressed on here) that these things are puffed up, costly luvvie fests then? Or is that just the ones from which the UK is excluded?
  • I was once Best Man. I had quizzed the Groom on various anecdotes and old family stories to tell.

    The best one, and my planned pièce de résistance, was long and fairly intricate, and involved a pair of underpants, the wife's grandmother, the wrong bedroom and the groom.

    Minutes before I stood up, I learnt that the grandmother had died suddenly only a few days before and so I had to scribble out a whole chunk of the speech and then make some filler up as I stood up.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    This is a good piece showing how, recent growth aside, the Eurozone is still fundamentally flawed.

    https://www.cfr.org/blog/eurozones-fiscal-version-impossible-trinity
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    DCMS should just use the submissions for a UK-wide 2023 Cities of Culture instead.
    You're not of the view (vigorously expressed on here) that these things are puffed up, costly luvvie fests then? Or is that just the ones from which the UK is excluded?
    I had just asssumed that there was independent analysis showing the cost-benefit was inevitably in favour of undertaking such puffed up, costly luvvie fests....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    All the very best. Have a great day and don't hit the photographer when he says just one more. He's only doing his job. Really.
  • Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Sure. If there's one thing that this government has done, it's to give the impression of a boundless faith in in the generosity & good faith of the EU. Bit dumb to ignore the advice of 'UK officials' mind.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    Off-topic:

    Over the last few years, I've seen a few loads like this travelling along the A428 from St Neots towards Cambridge. I'd always wondered what they were doing:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-suffolk-42099175/how-to-move-a-giant-2m-yacht-across-dry-land

    Leaving out Noah, I’ve often wondered why yacht builders set up shop miles from the sea.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    I was once Best Man. I had quizzed the Groom on various anecdotes and old family stories to tell.

    The best one, and my planned pièce de résistance, was long and fairly intricate, and involved a pair of underpants, the wife's grandmother, the wrong bedroom and the groom.

    Minutes before I stood up, I learnt that the grandmother had died suddenly only a few days before and so I had to scribble out a whole chunk of the speech and then make some filler up as I stood up.

    Probably a lucky escape - no-one ever thanks a Best Man for a long speech! Short is best for third place, given that the first two speakers frequently waffle on...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited November 2017

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Unless you are sneaking a peak at this during the vows (not untypical PB behaviour I'm sure) I have probably missed you but: congrats!!
  • Dr. Foxinsox, the EU isn't European culture. It's a political institution.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
    Not all the Best Men who use it survive.......
    The, er, bravest Best Man speech I heard of started in silence. The best man took a plate, and put it in front of the Bride. He then put a piece of lettuce on the plate. He then stood back and watched the Bride for a bit, all the while in silence.

    He opened with "I just wondered whether she ate like one as well...."
    I told a variant of that joke at my brother's wedding, except without a prop. Halfway through, one of the bride's uncles - a rather sombre, religious man - said: "You're not going to say that one, are you?"

    When I saw him a few years later, the first thing he said to me was: "I did not approve of your speech, young man."
    When a friend of mine married a German in a lovely little town in Schwelsig Holstein he opened with:

    "Welcome to this delightful wedding in Germany, formerly Denmark...."

    It went downhill from there.
  • IanB2 said:

    I was once Best Man. I had quizzed the Groom on various anecdotes and old family stories to tell.

    The best one, and my planned pièce de résistance, was long and fairly intricate, and involved a pair of underpants, the wife's grandmother, the wrong bedroom and the groom.

    Minutes before I stood up, I learnt that the grandmother had died suddenly only a few days before and so I had to scribble out a whole chunk of the speech and then make some filler up as I stood up.

    Probably a lucky escape - no-one ever thanks a Best Man for a long speech! Short is best for third place, given that the first two speakers frequently waffle on...
    When it comes to public speaking, short is always best.

    I had to stand up at my birthday lunch on Sunday and give a thank you speech. I clocked in at 52 seconds. No one has said to me since that they wanted me to carry on speaking for longer.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Although I am curious how the GDR managed to be part of a successful bid in 1988.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited November 2017
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.

    Or in terms of Heisenberg, we know Turkey is joining but we are unable to ascertain the speed at which it is moving towards the destination.
  • F1: Andrew Benson, BBC F1 chap, reckons Williams will sign Kubica.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Off-topic:

    Over the last few years, I've seen a few loads like this travelling along the A428 from St Neots towards Cambridge. I'd always wondered what they were doing:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-suffolk-42099175/how-to-move-a-giant-2m-yacht-across-dry-land

    Leaving out Noah, I’ve often wondered why yacht builders set up shop miles from the sea.
    Well, Sunseeker are in a very good position to make their massive boats in Poole Harbour. And I assume these are coming from Fairline. Oundle is on the navigable Nene, so small boats could be got out that way. I suppose there's so much potential profit in the bigger boats that it's worth them going for that market as well - though their financial problems show that it might not be that good a choice ...

    Also, access to calm waters probably helps commissioning a great deal, so you'd base it on inland waters or a harbour rather than directly into the sea.

    ISTR a story about an Italian shipyard that made a couple of vessels for their navy. It was a bigger award than they'd ever got before, and they worked hard on the boats. When it came time for delivery, they realised that there was a bridge downstream they couldn't get through. The vessels ended up being scrapped, as the locals would not let the bridge be demolished.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    The lengths to which the Great Turkey Accession Swindle was taken were awesome.
  • MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Looks like Mugabe is set to stay in Zimbabwe, will that "Any Other" bet pay out, or does it not count as "exile"?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    The lengths to which the Great Turkey Accession Swindle was taken were awesome.
    And you guys are supposed to be the cream of the internet chatroom contributors. Turkey was quietly wending its way towards an ultimate goal of EU membership. There were and are many hurdles to overcome, as described very eloquently by @JosiasJessop yesterday.

    Are they on their way? Yes. Are they "joining"? No. Is a Turkey that has conformed with all the required measures so as to be able to be considered for membership a welcome addition to the EU? Depends on whether you see the EU solely in terms of the number of foreigners that could come over here and not take our jobs.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
    Turkey's status was a bit of politics of convenience for the EU then ? I voted remain but I think Max has called this one right.
  • Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
    Turkey's status was a bit of politics of convenience for the EU then ? I voted remain but I think Max has called this one right.
    Turkey is not joining the EU. It's simply untrue to suggest otherwise.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations. Hope the day goes well, and best wishes for both of you for the future, too.
    Thank you all.

    We've been together twenty years. Marriage been talked about off and on for many years, but the day has finally come.
    Congratulations! I do hope your best man has got all the old jokes! (Marriage isn't a word, its a sentence. Why do brides wear white? To match the other domestic appliances....and so on....)
    I've not actually heard the 'Why do brides wear white?' one before.
    Not all the Best Men who use it survive.......
    The, er, bravest Best Man speech I heard of started in silence. The best man took a plate, and put it in front of the Bride. He then put a piece of lettuce on the plate. He then stood back and watched the Bride for a bit, all the while in silence.

    He opened with "I just wondered whether she ate like one as well...."
    I told a variant of that joke at my brother's wedding, except without a prop. Halfway through, one of the bride's uncles - a rather sombre, religious man - said: "You're not going to say that one, are you?"

    When I saw him a few years later, the first thing he said to me was: "I did not approve of your speech, young man."
    When a friend of mine married a German in a lovely little town in Schwelsig Holstein he opened with:

    "Welcome to this delightful wedding in Germany, formerly Denmark...."

    It went downhill from there.
    Last family wedding I went to the bride’s father had died earlier in the year, so her mother gave her away and made the ‘bride’s father’ speech. Went very well; however I’m not sure what was said because the groom was Irish and a lot of his family had come over for the celebrations. This meant quite a lot of drink was taken before the ‘breakfast' as well as during. Not at all sure about after!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkrey is applying, but many hurdles of reform before joining actually occurs. As progress is stalled or going into reverse on many of these, membership is a distant possibility.

    It really isn't that complicated to understand!
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    TOPPING said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    The lengths to which the Great Turkey Accession Swindle was taken were awesome.
    And you guys are supposed to be the cream of the internet chatroom contributors. Turkey was quietly wending its way towards an ultimate goal of EU membership. There were and are many hurdles to overcome, as described very eloquently by @JosiasJessop yesterday.

    Are they on their way? Yes. Are they "joining"? No. Is a Turkey that has conformed with all the required measures so as to be able to be considered for membership a welcome addition to the EU? Depends on whether you see the EU solely in terms of the number of foreigners that could come over here and not take our jobs.
    There is enough doubt for an interesting conversation along the lines of "it all depends what you mean by 'joining' ", but not for the playground wails of PANTS ON FIRE which the subject provokes in some contributors. Merkel and Verhofstadt, both of whom strike me as reasonable adults, have said sadly but firmly that Turkey's hope of joining were extinguished by the Erdogan crackdown. No adult commentator that I have seen has said in response to their words, But of course it was never going to happen anyway because of something Chirac said in 2004. That is a mere fantasy.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Pulpstar said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
    Turkey's status was a bit of politics of convenience for the EU then ? I voted remain but I think Max has called this one right.
    It was a convenience for both sides. Turkey's location in the world was important historically, and it is important today. A westwards-looking, modern Turkey is in the EU (and our) interests. A Turkey looking east and going backwards is not. Therefore offering them the future opportunity to join in return for becoming more 'westernised' is sensible.

    From Turkey's perspective, there was a sizeable proportion of people who wanted EU membership (though that has changed). Talking helps trade, and gives them an important voice and lever over the EU. Even better, it gives them the opportunity to play off any potential suitors.

    The reality is that Turkey made virtually no movement to meeting the requirements to join the EU: but the act of talking was good for both sides. They were not joining; they were negotiating the first steps (and were failing to take even those steps). But the talks were useful to everyone.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
    I think the issue is that we either accept the EU's statements at face value - "Turkey is a candidate to join the EU", the government's statement at face value "We will do everything in our power to help Turkey join the EU", or we make up our own minds based on what we think is within the realm of possibility.

    I'm with you on this, I don't think Turkey was ever joining the EU, especially after Erdogan became a quasi-dictator. However, all of the official literature and official stances of the EU and our government made it clear that Turkey was a candidate for joining. A political campaign should base it's own views on the official stance of the government and EU, on that basis I don't see why Leave were wrong to campaign on that point. Both the government and EU could, and should, have seen it coming and suspended Turkey's candidature well in advance of the referendum, they did a few months later anyway so clearly it wasn't a huge issue.

    The fault lies with the Remain side and the EU for not clarifying their position on Turkey well in advance of the referendum, especially since Turkish membership had already caused the Dutch rejection of the EU Constitution.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dr. Foxinsox, the EU isn't European culture. It's a political institution.

    Culture is political, because everything involving people is political.

    We have decided not to participate in the EU cultural programme, so it is bizzare that thesbids were thought worthwhile.
  • Dr. Foxinsox, culture can be political, but that doesn't mean all culture is political.

    The EU trying to make itself synonymous with Europe is clearly political bullshit.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
    I think the issue is that we either accept the EU's statements at face value - "Turkey is a candidate to join the EU", the government's statement at face value "We will do everything in our power to help Turkey join the EU", or we make up our own minds based on what we think is within the realm of possibility.

    I'm with you on this, I don't think Turkey was ever joining the EU, especially after Erdogan became a quasi-dictator. However, all of the official literature and official stances of the EU and our government made it clear that Turkey was a candidate for joining. A political campaign should base it's own views on the official stance of the government and EU, on that basis I don't see why Leave were wrong to campaign on that point. Both the government and EU could, and should, have seen it coming and suspended Turkey's candidature well in advance of the referendum, they did a few months later anyway so clearly it wasn't a huge issue.

    The fault lies with the Remain side and the EU for not clarifying their position on Turkey well in advance of the referendum, especially since Turkish membership had already caused the Dutch rejection of the EU Constitution.
    Last para; down to Cameron again!
  • A small piece of personal news. I shall only be posting for the next hour or so, as later today:

    I get married!!!

    There is to be a Mrs Borough!

    Congratulations to you both!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    edited November 2017

    Dr. Foxinsox, the EU isn't European culture. It's a political institution.

    Culture is political, because everything involving people is political.

    We have decided not to participate in the EU cultural programme, so it is bizzare that thesbids were thought worthwhile.
    Probably being done by Remainers, who couldn't get their head round the notion that we would ACTUALLY BE LEAVING.....
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
    I think the issue is that we either accept the EU's statements at face value - "Turkey is a candidate to join the EU", the government's statement at face value "We will do everything in our power to help Turkey join the EU", or we make up our own minds based on what we think is within the realm of possibility.

    I'm with you on this, I don't think Turkey was ever joining the EU, especially after Erdogan became a quasi-dictator. However, all of the official literature and official stances of the EU and our government made it clear that Turkey was a candidate for joining. A political campaign should base it's own views on the official stance of the government and EU, on that basis I don't see why Leave were wrong to campaign on that point. Both the government and EU could, and should, have seen it coming and suspended Turkey's candidature well in advance of the referendum, they did a few months later anyway so clearly it wasn't a huge issue.

    The fault lies with the Remain side and the EU for not clarifying their position on Turkey well in advance of the referendum, especially since Turkish membership had already caused the Dutch rejection of the EU Constitution.
    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    TOPPING said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Entry is open to EEA/EFTA countries, and those applying for EU membership.

    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    The lengths to which the Great Turkey Accession Swindle was taken were awesome.
    And you guys are supposed to be the cream of the internet chatroom contributors. Turkey was quietly wending its way towards an ultimate goal of EU membership. There were and are many hurdles to overcome, as described very eloquently by @JosiasJessop yesterday.

    Are they on their way? Yes. Are they "joining"? No. Is a Turkey that has conformed with all the required measures so as to be able to be considered for membership a welcome addition to the EU? Depends on whether you see the EU solely in terms of the number of foreigners that could come over here and not take our jobs.
    There is enough doubt for an interesting conversation along the lines of "it all depends what you mean by 'joining' ", but not for the playground wails of PANTS ON FIRE which the subject provokes in some contributors. Merkel and Verhofstadt, both of whom strike me as reasonable adults, have said sadly but firmly that Turkey's hope of joining were extinguished by the Erdogan crackdown. No adult commentator that I have seen has said in response to their words, But of course it was never going to happen anyway because of something Chirac said in 2004. That is a mere fantasy.
    You have been pointed to multiple links showing that long before the Erdogan crackdown Turkey's chances of joining the EU were seen as remote. Stop lying.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Let's hope some of that £350m a week can be used to compensate out of pocket councils.

    https://twitter.com/mattholehouse/status/933803971394883585

    Presumably they looked at Reykjavik (winner in 2000), Stavangar (winner in 2008) and Istambul (winner in 2010), and presumed the EU wouldn't be so nakedly childish as to exclude Britain just out of Anglophobic spite.
    Brexit means Brexit. We have decided to cut oirselves off from mainstream European culture.
    But Turkey isn't going to join the EU. I have been told in no uncertain terms by Remainers that it was a lie that Turkey was in the queue.
    Turkey is Schrödinger's candidate, it is simultaneously joining and never joining the EU.
    This isn't complicated for anyone who has two brain cells to rub together (which I appreciate are system requirements that are problematic for many Leavers). Turkey is an accession candidate country for the EU and has been since 1999. In reality, it is not and never was going to join the EU in the foreseeable future. A bald statement that "Turkey is joining the EU" was therefore a straight lie, because it isn't.
    I think the issue is that we either accept the EU's statements at face value - "Turkey is a candidate to join the EU", the government's statement at face value "We will do everything in our power to help Turkey join the EU", or we make up our own minds based on what we think is within the realm of possibility.

    I'm with you on this, I don't think Turkey was ever joining the EU, especially after Erdogan became a quasi-dictator. However, all of the official literature and official stances of the EU and our government made it clear that Turkey was a candidate for joining. A political campaign should base it's own views on the official stance of the government and EU, on that basis I don't see why Leave were wrong to campaign on that point. Both the government and EU could, and should, have seen it coming and suspended Turkey's candidature well in advance of the referendum, they did a few months later anyway so clearly it wasn't a huge issue.

    The fault lies with the Remain side and the EU for not clarifying their position on Turkey well in advance of the referendum, especially since Turkish membership had already caused the Dutch rejection of the EU Constitution.
    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.
    To be fair, Mr M, there are faults on both sides here.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    Dr. Foxinsox, the EU isn't European culture. It's a political institution.

    Culture is political, because everything involving people is political.

    We have decided not to participate in the EU cultural programme, so it is bizzare that thesbids were thought worthwhile.
    Probably being done by Remainers, who couldn't get their head round the notion that we would ACTUALLY BE LEAVING.....
    Can't get their heads round the notion we'd actually be leaving you say?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/12/boris-johnson-raises-concerns-as-government-considers-abandoning/

    12 November 2016 • 9:30pm

    Boris Johnson fears Britain’s post-Brexit reputation will be damaged by a cabinet colleague’s proposal to withdraw from a major European competition, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt.

    The Foreign Secretary has written to Karen Bradley, the Culture Secretary, over suggestions that the UK should abandon its obligation to host the 2023 European Capital of Culture.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    MaxPB said:

    I think the issue is that we either accept the EU's statements at face value - "Turkey is a candidate to join the EU", the government's statement at face value "We will do everything in our power to help Turkey join the EU", or we make up our own minds based on what we think is within the realm of possibility.

    I'm with you on this, I don't think Turkey was ever joining the EU, especially after Erdogan became a quasi-dictator. However, all of the official literature and official stances of the EU and our government made it clear that Turkey was a candidate for joining. A political campaign should base it's own views on the official stance of the government and EU, on that basis I don't see why Leave were wrong to campaign on that point. Both the government and EU could, and should, have seen it coming and suspended Turkey's candidature well in advance of the referendum, they did a few months later anyway so clearly it wasn't a huge issue.

    The fault lies with the Remain side and the EU for not clarifying their position on Turkey well in advance of the referendum, especially since Turkish membership had already caused the Dutch rejection of the EU Constitution.

    If I am a candidate for a job, it does not mean I am joining the company. It means that I may join in the future, subject to interviews, agreed terms etc.

    'Turkey is joining' gives the impression that everything was agreed and it was happening. It was not. I'd have no problem with : "Turkey may join in the future" or "Turkey is negotiating to join."

    The EU's position on Turkey at the time was well known and understood: they could join in the future if they met all the AC and survived a vote of other EU members. People lie and/or deliberately misunderstand it for their own ends.
  • MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    Of course it was a lie. Turkey is not joining the EU. Black is not white.

    More importantly is the reason why the lie was being told. It was told to frighten people that millions of Muslims were about to descend on Britain. It was a lie told to stir up xenophobia.

    It was a lie that all Leave campaigners were complicit in. British politics is profoundly damaged as a result for many years to come.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    Of course it was a lie. Turkey is not joining the EU. Black is not white.

    More importantly is the reason why the lie was being told. It was told to frighten people that millions of Muslims were about to descend on Britain. It was a lie told to stir up xenophobia.

    It was a lie that all Leave campaigners were complicit in. British politics is profoundly damaged as a result for many years to come.
    Answer the question please - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?

    It's a very simple yes/no one. I'm sure you won't struggle and go off topic.
  • MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    Of course it was a lie. Turkey is not joining the EU. Black is not white.

    More importantly is the reason why the lie was being told. It was told to frighten people that millions of Muslims were about to descend on Britain. It was a lie told to stir up xenophobia.

    It was a lie that all Leave campaigners were complicit in. British politics is profoundly damaged as a result for many years to come.
    Answer the question please - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?

    It's a very simple yes/no one. I'm sure you won't struggle and go off topic.
    I note that you are no longer pretending that it was either true or not xenophobic. There's nothing more that needs saying.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited November 2017
    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    The EU, and indeed most of us non-foreigner-hating types, are in favour of Turkey joining the EU. I personally can't wait until they join. If you ask me, I would be happy for Saudi Arabia to join.

    However...

    Any country eligible to join will need to fulfil certain criteria which means that in Turkey's case it will be a completely different Turkey joining to the one that exists today. And we all hope that eventually it will get there.

    Short of you having too much time on your hands pursuing this rather trivial point, I have no idea why you continue posting about it.
  • Is Brexit red mist clouding the Remainiac Alastair Campbell’s judgement? Tony Blair’s aggressive former spin doctor went a bit Ukip at the Labour Leaver Gisela Stuart before the pair appeared on BBC One’s Sunday Politics. “When are you going to stop fucking up my country?” growled raging Ali. “It’s my country, too,” shot back the upset German-born Stuart, the Birmingham Edgbaston MP for two decades until quitting last June.

    Campbell’s second verbal punch – “You’ve got another country to go to” – was so below the belt that, aimed by a Brextremist at a Stayer, might have had the snarling rottie denouncing xenophobia. Stuart has lived in Britain since 1974. Standing for Labour with the surname of her Bavarian parents, Gschaider, she was unsuccessful in the 1994 European elections. Three years later, under the Stuart name of her first husband, she won Edgbaston in Labour’s 1997 landslide. She never expected a loyalty test from a Labour Remainiac.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2017/11/commons-confidential-how-pestminster-lives
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    Of course it was a lie. Turkey is not joining the EU. Black is not white.

    More importantly is the reason why the lie was being told. It was told to frighten people that millions of Muslims were about to descend on Britain. It was a lie told to stir up xenophobia.

    It was a lie that all Leave campaigners were complicit in. British politics is profoundly damaged as a result for many years to come.
    Answer the question please - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?

    It's a very simple yes/no one. I'm sure you won't struggle and go off topic.
    I'll answer yes.

    But the question is irrelevant. I'd probably be in favour of a Russia that met the AC and was seen as being an acceptable member by the other members (i.e. passing the vote) joining the EU.

    But that does not mean Russia is joining. In fact, a Russia that met the criteria and was voted in would be a very different beast from the state it is today.

    'Being in favour of them joining' does not equal 'they are joining', unless you are saying Cameron had some strange sort of power over the rest of the EU. ;)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    edited November 2017
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    Of course it was a lie. Turkey is not joining the EU. Black is not white.

    More importantly is the reason why the lie was being told. It was told to frighten people that millions of Muslims were about to descend on Britain. It was a lie told to stir up xenophobia.

    It was a lie that all Leave campaigners were complicit in. British politics is profoundly damaged as a result for many years to come.
    Answer the question please - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?

    It's a very simple yes/no one. I'm sure you won't struggle and go off topic.
    The UK's official position is that it would like to see Turkey to join the EU.

    Vote Leave's official position (and now the UK's official position) is that it would like the UK to be an open, dynamic, successful country outside the EU.

    Official positions don't make dreams come true.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    If I am a candidate for a job, it does not mean I am joining the company. It means that I may join in the future, subject to interviews, agreed terms etc.

    'Turkey is joining' gives the impression that everything was agreed and it was happening. It was not. I'd have no problem with : "Turkey may join in the future" or "Turkey is negotiating to join."

    The EU's position on Turkey at the time was well known and understood: they could join in the future if they met all the AC and survived a vote of other EU members. People lie and/or deliberately misunderstand it for their own ends.

    Having seen the effect of Turkey's candidature on the Dutch referendum, why then, did the EU not get its house in order? Especially given how much more important our Leave/Remain referendum was than the Dutch constitution one.

    As I said, either we accept that the EU and our government were in favour of Turkish membership during the referendum campaign or we don't and say "yeah, well it's just politics innit". An official campaign is will within its rights to accept the official stance of the government and EU at face value. Especially after the government declined to say whether it would use its veto in the face of so much opposition to Turkey's membership. If was "just politics" then Dave could have said, "I've seen the scale of opposition to Turkey's membership among the British people over the last few days, so I will happily put their membership to a referendum". Job done. But he didn't. The EU could have brought forwards their suspension of Turkey's candidature by a few months. Job done. But they didn't.

    You can dance around on the head of a pin as much as you like, but the fact remains that during the campaign both our government and the EU were in favour of Turkey joining the EU.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited November 2017
    Looking at the Graun, the headline is TMay reiterating her revised EU divorce bill offer. It mentions the EU's apparent EUR60bn but doesn't actually say how much our revised offer is.

    Anyone any ideas?

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/24/theresa-may-brussels-brexit-divorce-bill-offer-summit
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    Of course it was a lie. Turkey is not joining the EU. Black is not white.

    More importantly is the reason why the lie was being told. It was told to frighten people that millions of Muslims were about to descend on Britain. It was a lie told to stir up xenophobia.

    It was a lie that all Leave campaigners were complicit in. British politics is profoundly damaged as a result for many years to come.
    Answer the question please - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?

    It's a very simple yes/no one. I'm sure you won't struggle and go off topic.
    I note that you are no longer pretending that it was either true or not xenophobic. There's nothing more that needs saying.
    I know it wasn't true. I admitted as much earlier. You still haven't answered the question. I think that tells me all I need to know.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    Of course it was a lie. Turkey is not joining the EU. Black is not white.

    More importantly is the reason why the lie was being told. It was told to frighten people that millions of Muslims were about to descend on Britain. It was a lie told to stir up xenophobia.

    It was a lie that all Leave campaigners were complicit in. British politics is profoundly damaged as a result for many years to come.
    Answer the question please - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?

    It's a very simple yes/no one. I'm sure you won't struggle and go off topic.
    I'll answer yes.

    But the question is irrelevant. I'd probably be in favour of a Russia that met the AC and was seen as being an acceptable member by the other members (i.e. passing the vote) joining the EU.

    But that does not mean Russia is joining. In fact, a Russia that met the criteria and was voted in would be a very different beast from the state it is today.

    'Being in favour of them joining' does not equal 'they are joining', unless you are saying Cameron had some strange sort of power over the rest of the EU. ;)
    Agreed. It was a very misleading claim made during the referendum, with implications for imminence that were not warranted and I said so at the time too so wasn't happy, before Mr Meeks tiresomely says again everyone was 'happy' about it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    The fault lies with those happy to spread xenophobic lies. They will poison British politics for many years to come.

    It is not a lie though, not officially. Until you accept that fact, a literal fact, that both the EU and our government were officially in favour of Turkey joining the EU, then a discussion with you on this subject is not worth having.

    I'll ask you a simple yes or no question - was the official stance of the EU and our government in favour of Turkey joining the EU during the referendum campaign?
    The EU, and indeed most of us non-foreigner-hating types, are in favour of Turkey joining the EU. I personally can't wait until they join. If you ask me, I would be happy for Saudi Arabia to join.

    However...

    Any country eligible to join will need to fulfil certain criteria which means that in Turkey's case it will be a completely different Turkey joining to the one that exists today. And we all hope that eventually it will get there.

    Short of you having too much time on your hands pursuing this rather trivial point, I have no idea why you continue posting about it.
    Too much time on my hands, I'm off sick!
  • Mr. Max, I hope your pestilence abates promptly.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    If I am a candidate for a job, it does not mean I am joining the company. It means that I may join in the future, subject to interviews, agreed terms etc.

    'Turkey is joining' gives the impression that everything was agreed and it was happening. It was not. I'd have no problem with : "Turkey may join in the future" or "Turkey is negotiating to join."

    The EU's position on Turkey at the time was well known and understood: they could join in the future if they met all the AC and survived a vote of other EU members. People lie and/or deliberately misunderstand it for their own ends.

    You can dance around on the head of a pin as much as you like, but the fact remains that during the campaign both our government and the EU were in favour of Turkey joining the EU.
    SO WHAT? They are in favour of Turkey joining. Why shouldn't they be? I am in favour of Turkey joining. I am also in favour of Hamilton Academicals winning the Champions League.

    Being in favour of something doesn't mean it is going to happen. How many people have to tell you this before it sinks in?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    edited November 2017
    MaxPB said:

    If I am a candidate for a job, it does not mean I am joining the company. It means that I may join in the future, subject to interviews, agreed terms etc.

    'Turkey is joining' gives the impression that everything was agreed and it was happening. It was not. I'd have no problem with : "Turkey may join in the future" or "Turkey is negotiating to join."

    The EU's position on Turkey at the time was well known and understood: they could join in the future if they met all the AC and survived a vote of other EU members. People lie and/or deliberately misunderstand it for their own ends.

    Having seen the effect of Turkey's candidature on the Dutch referendum, why then, did the EU not get its house in order? Especially given how much more important our Leave/Remain referendum was than the Dutch constitution one.

    As I said, either we accept that the EU and our government were in favour of Turkish membership during the referendum campaign or we don't and say "yeah, well it's just politics innit". An official campaign is will within its rights to accept the official stance of the government and EU at face value. Especially after the government declined to say whether it would use its veto in the face of so much opposition to Turkey's membership. If was "just politics" then Dave could have said, "I've seen the scale of opposition to Turkey's membership among the British people over the last few days, so I will happily put their membership to a referendum". Job done. But he didn't. The EU could have brought forwards their suspension of Turkey's candidature by a few months. Job done. But they didn't.

    You can dance around on the head of a pin as much as you like, but the fact remains that during the campaign both our government and the EU were in favour of Turkey joining the EU.
    You're the one dancing around on the head of a pin. 'being in favour of joining' is not the same as 'they are joining'.

    Hope you feel better soon.
This discussion has been closed.