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  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    kyf_100 said:

    nielh said:

    kyf_100 said:

    viewcode said:

    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    @Mortimer I've made a modest change to my Will as well. I've switched a donation that was going to a poverty charity in the north of England to my old University. All charity is a value judgement as noone can give to everything. I'm afraid that's the effect Brexit has had on me. It's a new social reality and I'm adjusting accordingly. In case of Food Bank donations I stick my odd tin into the box for our independent Animal Shelter instead.

    I would not donate anything to racist Brexiters. I would rather donate to the third world where poor people are really poor!
    Lol

    Those poor leave labour area's are already missing your donations.
    The Labour voters voted to Remain. It is the Tories and UKiPers who voted to leave. And a few Labour voters.
    Bradford voted leave and we must have had a good number of our Asian brits voting the same way.

    It goes against everything you posted doesn't it.

    Lol
    The assumption that second- or third-generation immigrants from region X would sympathise with first-generation immigrants from region Y was widely held and entirely, spectacularly wrong. Many such people voted "Leave" on precisely that basis.
    Indeed, many of them were the first to notice declining living standards and wages as new immigrants came along and undercut them. Only when remainers start to admit that free movement was a vicious race to the bottom will they understand why so many voted as they did. Instead, a certain type of remainer is happy to cry racist while ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.
    There aren't that many remainers who fall in to the category of being uncritically supportive of free movement. Those who do tend to be a small subset of wealthy/priveleged/ lucky people who benefit from cheap and reliable labour. Not all people who voted remain, by any means.

    True enough. I was responding, as politely as possible, to the really quite extraordinary declarations of some remainers on here that they would not support people in need due to them being "racist brexiteers".
    They are still grieving. Give them time.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Because they know they're not going to be agreed.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a shambles Hunt can still say he voted remain but changed his mind to commit to the will of the people, absolving himself of any blame.

    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice were Corbyn versus, Johnson, Gove or Davis, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of them, but then in June 2016 Corbyn didn't wilfully choose to send my country in a downward spiral to economic oblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a shambles Hunt can still say he voted remain but changed his mind to commit to the will of the people, absolving himself of any blame.

    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice were Corbyn versus, Johnson, Gove or Davis, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of them, but then in June 2016 Corbyn didn't wilfully choose to send my country in a downward spiral to economic oblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who is not a Unionist or monarchist as TSE is not is not a Tory by any traditional definition of the term but a free market Liberal.

    MexicanPete is not a Tory either just because he might prefer Hunt but not Boris or Davis or Gove to Corbyn.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    Jonathan said:

    Hunt had the disadvantage of not being a buffoon.

    Only it appears that he's amenable to homeopathy.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22241-hail-jeremy-hunt-the-new-minister-for-magic/
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    I would expect that the border controls are going to be a bigger issue for the republicans, who are in a minority in northern Ireland.

    The ignorance on display about Ireland is spectacular. I admit my knowledge is limited, but it does seem quite likely that erecting a border will result in a massive fallout with the Irish republic, the end of the peace process and resumption of the troubles, and many people are happy to countenance that in order to achieve their aim of regulatory divergence with the EU, when the whole problem could be avoided by staying in the customs union.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    surbiton said:

    @Mortimer I've made a modest change to my Will as well. I've switched a donation that was going to a poverty charity in the north of England to my old University. All charity is a value judgement as noone can give to everything. I'm afraid that's the effect Brexit has had on me. It's a new social reality and I'm adjusting accordingly. In case of Food Bank donations I stick my odd tin into the box for our independent Animal Shelter instead.

    I would not donate anything to racist Brexiters. I would rather donate to the third world where poor people are really poor!
    Some strong contenders this afternoon for PB lovely bloke of the year award. I'd say you were definitely in with a shout. Personally, I'm looking for a charity which advocates the unanaesthetised vivisection of fluffy kittens with big googoo eyes, to send a message about what I think of David Davis.
    Can I suggest you all stop arguing and donate to The Fore instead?

    Progressive, cuddly, donor-friendly, charity-friendly, aiming to be national in scope*, fully diligenced and cause-blind**

    www.thefore.org

    * although, in truth, too London centric but we are working on that

    ** although a slight bias towards helping people who are excluded from mainstream society to integrate (i.e. adult literacy, recidivism, gang culture, etc). Perk of being chairman of the parent trust :smiley:
    Most importantly, where do you stand on the fluffy kitten issue? :D
    We are pro fluffy kittens
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited November 2017
    Huge numbers of empty seats in the failing nfl...
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    surbiton said:

    @Mortimer I've made a modest change to my Will as well. I've switched a donation that was going to a poverty charity in the north of England to my old University. All charity is a value judgement as noone can give to everything. I'm afraid that's the effect Brexit has had on me. It's a new social reality and I'm adjusting accordingly. In case of Food Bank donations I stick my odd tin into the box for our independent Animal Shelter instead.

    I would not donate anything to racist Brexiters. I would rather donate to the third world where poor people are really poor!
    Some strong contenders this afternoon for PB lovely bloke of the year award. I'd say you were definitely in with a shout. Personally, I'm looking for a charity which advocates the unanaesthetised vivisection of fluffy kittens with big googoo eyes, to send a message about what I think of David Davis.
    Can I suggest you all stop arguing and donate to The Fore instead?

    Progressive, cuddly, donor-friendly, charity-friendly, aiming to be national in scope*, fully diligenced and cause-blind**

    www.thefore.org

    * although, in truth, too London centric but we are working on that

    ** although a slight bias towards helping people who are excluded from mainstream society to integrate (i.e. adult literacy, recidivism, gang culture, etc). Perk of being chairman of the parent trust :smiley:
    Most importantly, where do you stand on the fluffy kitten issue? :D
    We are pro fluffy kittens

    Amateur fluffy kittens are more fun.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a shambles Hunt can still say he voted remain but changed his mind to commit to the will of the people, absolving himself of any blame.

    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice were Corbyn versus, Johnson, Gove or Davis, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of them, but then in June 2016 Corbyn didn't wilfully choose to send my country in a downward spiral to economic oblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who is not a Unionist or monarchist as TSE is not is not a Tory by any traditional definition of the term but a free market Liberal.

    MexicanPete is not a Tory either just because he might prefer Hunt but not Boris or Davis or Gove to Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    RobD said:

    Charles said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    surbiton said:

    @Mortimer I've made a modest change to my Will as well. I've switched a donation that was going to a poverty charity in the north of England to my old University. All charity is a value judgement as noone can give to everything. I'm afraid that's the effect Brexit has had on me. It's a new social reality and I'm adjusting accordingly. In case of Food Bank donations I stick my odd tin into the box for our independent Animal Shelter instead.

    I would not donate anything to racist Brexiters. I would rather donate to the third world where poor people are really poor!
    Some strong contenders this afternoon for PB lovely bloke of the year award. I'd say you were definitely in with a shout. Personally, I'm looking for a charity which advocates the unanaesthetised vivisection of fluffy kittens with big googoo eyes, to send a message about what I think of David Davis.
    Can I suggest you all stop arguing and donate to The Fore instead?

    Progressive, cuddly, donor-friendly, charity-friendly, aiming to be national in scope*, fully diligenced and cause-blind**

    www.thefore.org

    * although, in truth, too London centric but we are working on that

    ** although a slight bias towards helping people who are excluded from mainstream society to integrate (i.e. adult literacy, recidivism, gang culture, etc). Perk of being chairman of the parent trust :smiley:
    Most importantly, where do you stand on the fluffy kitten issue? :D
    We are pro fluffy kittens

    Amateur fluffy kittens are more fun.

    Not as effective in fundraising though!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a !

    Hunt will have to commit to leavingfor the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice wereoblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a shambles Hunt can still say he voted remain but changed his mind to commit to the will of the people, absolving himself of any blame.

    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice were Corbyn versus, Johnson, Gove or Davis, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of them, but then in June 2016 Corbyn didn't wilfully choose to send my country in a downward spiral to economic oblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who is not a Unionist or monarchist as TSE is not is not a Tory by any traditional definition of the term but a free market Liberal.

    MexicanPete is not a Tory either just because he might prefer Hunt but not Boris or Davis or Gove to Corbyn.
    With respect; until you're able to reconcile yourself with the dementia tax, you're not a tory either.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017
    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a shambles Hunt can still say he voted remain but changed his mind to commit to the will of the people, absolving himself of any blame.

    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice were Corbyn versus, Johnson, Gove or Davis, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of them, but then in June 2016 Corbyn didn't wilfully choose to send my country in a downward spiral to economic oblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who.
    With respect; until you're able to reconcile yourself with the dementia tax, you're not a tory either.
    The dementia tax was, of course, the very definition of a non Tory measure.

    Tories have always supported the preservation of estates and inherited wealth, unlike socialists and free market Liberals.

  • HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
  • I wonder if the ONS has adjusted for this Black Friday bollox.

    The roads were gridlocked today because of it.

    Can we have some of that austerity I keep reading about in the Guardian.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice were Corbyn versus, Johnson, Gove or Davis, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of them, but then in June 2016 Corbyn didn't wilfully choose to send my country in a downward spiral to economic oblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who.
    With respect; until you're able to reconcile yourself with the dementia tax, you're not a tory either.
    The dementia tax was, of course, the very definition of a non Tory measure.

    Tories have always supported the preservation of estates and inherited wealth, unlike socialists and free market Liberals.

    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!
  • Charles, are you behind this Big Pharma move?

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/934894765463801856
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a !

    Hunt will have to commit to leavingfor the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice wereoblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.
    You've clearly proved you are not a Tory

    A true Tory doesn't give a toss what someone believes so long as they vote Conservative!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Charles, are you behind this Big Pharma move?

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/934894765463801856

    Despite Brexit? :)
  • ' Senior Eurosceptics say Hunt is lining himself up as an alternative to Boris Johnson as the main Brexiteer candidate for prime minister after publicly switching his support from “remain” since the general election '

    Am I missing something but is there any significance in switching support to the winning side a year after the event ?

    Did Hunt do some American televangelist style renounciation and conversion ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    Like who? Name one Tory PM who has said we should give Northern Ireland to the Republic or Gibraltar to the Spanish?

    Mrs Thatcher of course fought a war to prevent the Falkland Islands being taken by Argentina.

    There is nothing to prevent you being a Tory as such if you are a free market liberal, as you are, provided you also support the monarchy and the Union and the preservation of British overseas territories, which you don't.

    Commenting on the Queen's potential political preferences is not the same as advocating the abolition of the monarchy (the Queen Mother was of course a staunch supporter of Mrs Thatcher).
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who.
    With respect; until you're able to reconcile yourself with the dementia tax, you're not a tory either.
    The dementia tax was, of course, the very definition of a non Tory measure.

    Tories have always supported the preservation of estates and inherited wealth, unlike socialists and free market Liberals.

    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!
    No that is classical liberals, Tories were traditionally the party of the landed classes and the preservation of estates, though they absorbed many free market, classical liberals, like TSE, when the Tories became the main opponents of the Labour Party rather than the main opponents of the Liberal Party.


  • RobD said:

    Charles, are you behind this Big Pharma move?

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/934894765463801856

    Despite Brexit? :)
    Despite Brexit, a tribute to George Osborne's magnificent stewardship of the economy and t'Northern Powerhouse.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited November 2017

    ' Senior Eurosceptics say Hunt is lining himself up as an alternative to Boris Johnson as the main Brexiteer candidate for prime minister after publicly switching his support from “remain” since the general election '

    Am I missing something but is there any significance in switching support to the winning side a year after the event ?

    Did Hunt do some American televangelist style renounciation and conversion ?

    http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/jeremy-hunt-hammers-arrogant-eu-commission/

    Luke 15:7
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a !

    Hunt will have to commit to leavingfor the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice wereoblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.
    You will regret spurning my vote when Alun Cairns loses the Vale of Glamorgan by a single vote on the third recount!

    Oh Jeremy Corbyn!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    Like who? Name one Tory PM who has said we should give Northern Ireland to the Republic or Gibraltar to the Spanish?

    Mrs Thatcher of course fought a war to prevent the Falkland Islands being taken by Argentina.

    There is nothing to prevent you being a Tory as such if you are a free market liberal, as you are, provided you also support the monarchy and the Union and the preservation of British overseas territories, which you don't.

    Commenting on the Queen's potential political preferences is not the same as advocating the abolition of the monarchy (the Queen Mother was of course a staunch supporter of Mrs Thatcher).
    Your original quote was 'It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.'

    I was citing Theresa May and the Chagosians.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:



    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!

    No that is classical liberals, Tories were traditionally the party of the landed classes and the preservation of estates, though they absorbed many free market, classical liberals, like TSE, when the Tories became the main opponents of the Labour Party rather than the main opponents of the Liberal Party.


    Your answer should really be that true tories don't think the state should provide social care at all - leaving it to charities / family / private provision etc.

    No dementia tax, but no state involvement in social care either - is the tory way.

    But that's not what you believe, which is why i'm questioning your tory credentials.
  • Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a !

    Hunt will have to commit to leavingfor the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice wereoblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
    No it doesn't, .
    You will regret spurning my vote when Alun Cairns loses the Vale of Glamorgan by a single vote on the third recount!

    Oh Jeremy Corbyn!
    That would only be the case if polling evidence showed Jeremy Hunt would beat Jeremy Corbyn but Boris, Davis and Gove would lose to Corbyn.

    Even then if we lost the Vale of Glamorgan because we were not led by Hunt and you voted Labour that would still not make you a Tory but a floating voter (which would be equally the case if we were led by Hunt and you voted Tory and we held the Vale of Glamorgan).
  • I think trump might have some tweets about nfl coming up.....
  • You will regret spurning my vote when Alun Cairns loses the Vale of Glamorgan by a single vote on the third recount!

    Oh Jeremy Corbyn!

    NO! You must vote for Alun Cairns, otherwise we'd be deprived of this comedy

    http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/top-welsh-politician-stood-tip-13771031
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    David Cameron of course won a majority as a Unionist and monarchist, the 2 key strands of Toryism.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited November 2017

    RobD said:

    Charles, are you behind this Big Pharma move?

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/934894765463801856

    Despite Brexit? :)
    Despite Brexit, a tribute to George Osborne's magnificent stewardship of the economy and t'Northern Powerhouse.
    Osborne, the true King of the North(ern powerhouse)
  • HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    Dave of course won a majority as a Unionist and monarchist, the 2 key strands of Toryism.
    He also won a majority by promising no more Grammar Schools. Like Thatcher, as Education/PM, he was no fan of Grammar Schools in deed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    Like who? Name one Tory PM who has said we should give Northern Ireland to the Republic or Gibraltar to the Spanish?

    Mrs Thatcher of course fought a war to prevent the Falkland Islands being taken by Argentina.

    There is nothing to prevent you being a Tory as such if you are a free market liberal, as you are, provided you also support the monarchy and the Union and the preservation of British overseas territories, which you don't.

    Commenting on the Queen's potential political preferences is not the same as advocating the abolition of the monarchy (the Queen Mother was of course a staunch supporter of Mrs Thatcher).
    Your original quote was 'It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.'

    I was citing Theresa May and the Chagosians.
    The Chagos Archipelago is still part of the British Indian Ocean territory.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles, are you behind this Big Pharma move?

    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/934894765463801856

    Not specifically,although I do spend time with UKTI on incentives for UK based R&D

    Fundamentally nations that pay for innovative drugs - like the UK - and have good science get R&D centres
  • HYUFD said:


    The Chagos Archipelago is still part of the British Indian Ocean territory.

    But the citizens aren't, they were forcibly removed.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:



    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!

    No that is classical liberals, Tories were traditionally the party of the landed classes and the preservation of estates, though they absorbed many free market, classical liberals, like TSE, when the Tories became the main opponents of the Labour Party rather than the main opponents of the Liberal Party.


    Your answer should really be that true tories don't think the state should provide social care at all - leaving it to charities / family / private provision etc.

    No dementia tax, but no state involvement in social care either - is the tory way.

    But that's not what you believe, which is why i'm questioning your tory credentials.
    I believe National Insurance should pay for most social care which is a perfectly Tory principle.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    Dave of course won a majority as a Unionist and monarchist, the 2 key strands of Toryism.
    He also won a majority by promising no more Grammar Schools. Like Thatcher, as Education/PM, he was no fan of Grammar Schools in deed.
    Grammar Schools are backed by most Tories but I would accept are not a fundamental Tory principle like support for the monarchy and Unionism.

    Thatcher in her Premiership ensured that not all the remaining grammar schools were closed so we now have more grammars open today than we did in 1979.

    Cameron to be fair to him did not pursue a campaign to close existing grammar schools either.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a !

    Hunt will have to commit to leavingfor the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice wereoblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.
    You will regret spurning my vote when Alun Cairns loses the Vale of Glamorgan by a single vote on the third recount!

    Oh Jeremy Corbyn!
    A sometime candidate for a town council doesn't speak for the party as a whole. Don't let him put you off with his rigid absolutes and false certainties
  • HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    Dave of course won a majority as a Unionist and monarchist, the 2 key strands of Toryism.
    He also won a majority by promising no more Grammar Schools. Like Thatcher, as Education/PM, he was no fan of Grammar Schools in deed.
    Of course not. Like you he believed in the best education being reserved for those who were willing to pay for it
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393
    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017

    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    Well in the case of Blairites that was debateable, as the current Labour leader would certainly claim they were more free market liberals than socialists too.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    If you can dig out my post from a few weeks ago (is there an easy way for mods to do that) I can turn it into a thread but will take a few weeks.
  • This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    Back in 2016 in Manchester there were a lot of Momentum types chanting Tony Blair was a Tory.

    If you voted Labour in 1997, 2001, or 2005, then you're not a Socialist, you're a Tory.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a !

    Hunt will have to commit to leavingfor the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice wereoblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
    No it doesn't, .
    You will regret spurning my vote when Alun Cairns loses the Vale of Glamorgan by a single vote on the third recount!

    Oh Jeremy Corbyn!
    A sometime candidate for a town council doesn't speak for the party as a whole. Don't let him put you off with his rigid absolutes and false certainties
    Plus on the District Council candidates list for 2018.

    However I never said I wanted MexicanPete not to vote Tory, that is not the same as saying he is not an ideological Tory which he clearly is not.
  • Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    If you can dig out my post from a few weeks ago (is there an easy way for mods to do that) I can turn it into a thread but will take a few weeks.
    I'll do it tomorrow evening, I'm on my mobile and it an arse to search for old comments on mobiles.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:


    The Chagos Archipelago is still part of the British Indian Ocean territory.

    But the citizens aren't, they were forcibly removed.
    Compulsory purchase is well established as a way for the government to override property rights where the national interest requires it
  • HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    Dave of course won a majority as a Unionist and monarchist, the 2 key strands of Toryism.
    He also won a majority by promising no more Grammar Schools. Like Thatcher, as Education/PM, he was no fan of Grammar Schools in deed.
    Of course not. Like you he believed in the best education being reserved for those who were willing to pay for it
    No, I want the best education for all, that's why I'm a supporter of the academies approach of Gove.

    Grammar schools help a very small minority of kids, whilst screwing the majority of kids.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    Back in 2016 in Manchester there were a lot of Momentum types chanting Tony Blair was a Tory.

    If you voted Labour in 1997, 2001, or 2005, then you're not a Socialist, you're a Tory.
    If you voted Labour in 1997, 2001 or 2005 but Tory in 2010, 2015 or 2017 then you are not a Socialist no but a swing voter.
  • Charles said:

    HYUFD said:


    The Chagos Archipelago is still part of the British Indian Ocean territory.

    But the citizens aren't, they were forcibly removed.
    Compulsory purchase is well established as a way for the government to override property rights where the national interest requires it
    Yup, that's the point I was making, the government will strip people of their rights and property in the national interest.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    Good for your Dad's family and I presume your family have always been monarchists and Unionists?

    (My grandmother campaigned for Macmillan in Bromley and I have an ancestor through my mother's family who was an MP in the 16th century).
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    Dave of course won a majority as a Unionist and monarchist, the 2 key strands of Toryism.
    He also won a majority by promising no more Grammar Schools. Like Thatcher, as Education/PM, he was no fan of Grammar Schools in deed.
    Of course not. Like you he believed in the best education being reserved for those who were willing to pay for it
    No, I want the best education for all, that's why I'm a supporter of the academies approach of Gove.

    Grammar Private schools help a very small minority of kids, whilst screwing the majority of kids.
    Corrected for you.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.

    I think I need to a thread on this for the sake of HYUFD.

    He's obsessed about throwing me out of the Tory party.

    I'm obsessed about making sure the Tories win a majority again.
    If you can dig out my post from a few weeks ago (is there an easy way for mods to do that) I can turn it into a thread but will take a few weeks.
    I'll do it tomorrow evening, I'm on my mobile and it an arse to search for old comments on mobiles.
    Thanks - given that I won't write it for a few weeks I guess I can wait 24 hours...
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    Having a browse on PB like https://78.media.tumblr.com/8bf856013c19864dcb2518fca92a845c/tumblr_ni3dw6tgLq1s2urj3o1_250.gif
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    Good for your Dad's family and I presume your family have always been monarchists and Unionists?

    (My grandmother campaigned for Macmillan in Bromley and I have an ancestor through my mother's family who was an MP in the 16th century).
    My cousin Edward (Carson) was a noted Unionist... but he rebelled against the Crown in Parliament in the name of loyalty to the Crown Outwith (bloody lawyers!)

    In terms of the monarchy we were very close to Queen Anne but rather lost interest thereafter. The problem these days is that access to the royals is very easy if you are willing to pay enough
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:



    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!

    No that is classical liberals, Tories were traditionally the party of the landed classes and the preservation of estates, though they absorbed many free market, classical liberals, like TSE, when the Tories became the main opponents of the Labour Party rather than the main opponents of the Liberal Party.


    Your answer should really be that true tories don't think the state should provide social care at all - leaving it to charities / family / private provision etc.

    No dementia tax, but no state involvement in social care either - is the tory way.

    But that's not what you believe, which is why i'm questioning your tory credentials.
    I believe National Insurance should pay for most social care which is a perfectly Tory principle.
    Believing something doesn't make the sums add up.

    As any Tory knows.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Scott_P said:
    Have the next out of the Cabinet odds shifted yet?

    I wonder who is making mischief by leaking to The Times. Another merry addition to the rich tapestry of life after Brexit.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD

    You are correct that I am not and never will be a Tory. However you have a once in a lifetime opportunity to take my vote because I find Corbyn, McDonnell and the whole Momentum bandwagon to be wholly unacceptable.

    Now someone like me might look favourably at a nice old-fashioned one-nation feudal Tory. The sort of socially liberal Tory Boris Johnson once purported to be. Despite his failings and subtle Machiavellian tendencies Hunt might fit the bill. So would Rudd for that matter.

    Johnson, Fox and Gove have proven themselves to be mealy-mouthed weasels, and floating voters from the left I suspect will find them unappealing. You need people like me to switch to avoid PM Corbyn. If I vote LD you still get Corbyn but I remain content that I didn't vote for him. Happy days!

    Davis is more interesting, now whereas I consider him to be an odious narcissistic oik, I can see others of my demeanour, particularly those with Brexit tendencies finding him appealing. I suspect however his ego and his casual campaigning style will catch him out. He is nonetheless a better bet than the other Brexit clowns mentioned earlier.

    As for JRM, as a party, you can't be serious!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns a !

    Hunt will have to commit to leavingfor the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice wereoblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who Corbyn.
    TSE is a member of the Conservative party. That makes him a Tory. You are not an Irish bandit, but I will accept you as a Tory.

    @Mexicanpete is a potential Tory voter. That's good enough for me.
    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.
    You will regret spurning my vote when Alun Cairns loses the Vale of Glamorgan by a single vote on the third recount!

    Oh Jeremy Corbyn!
    A sometime candidate for a town council doesn't speak for the party as a whole. Don't let him put you off with his rigid absolutes and false certainties
    +1
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Mortimer said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:



    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!

    No that is classical liberals, Tories were traditionally the party of the landed classes and the preservation of estates, though they absorbed many free market, classical liberals, like TSE, when the Tories became the main opponents of the Labour Party rather than the main opponents of the Liberal Party.


    Your answer should really be that true tories don't think the state should provide social care at all - leaving it to charities / family / private provision etc.

    No dementia tax, but no state involvement in social care either - is the tory way.

    But that's not what you believe, which is why i'm questioning your tory credentials.
    I believe National Insurance should pay for most social care which is a perfectly Tory principle.
    Believing something doesn't make the sums add up.

    As any Tory knows.
    As National Insurance is paid by all employees and all assets over £23k, including your main property in the case of residential care, already have to be used to pay for social care I would not be certain about that.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:



    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!

    No that is classical liberals, Tories were traditionally the party of the landed classes and the preservation of estates, though they absorbed many free market, classical liberals, like TSE, when the Tories became the main opponents of the Labour Party rather than the main opponents of the Liberal Party.


    Your answer should really be that true tories don't think the state should provide social care at all - leaving it to charities / family / private provision etc.

    No dementia tax, but no state involvement in social care either - is the tory way.

    But that's not what you believe, which is why i'm questioning your tory credentials.
    I believe National Insurance should pay for most social care which is a perfectly Tory principle.
    You believe in taxing the labour of those who don't have any assets to inherit to ensure that those with assets can pass them on to their own kids, untaxed.

    That is not conservatism. Unlike real tories, you believe in taxing labour to subsidize wealth.

    In fairness, you're not alone. Many self-identifying conservatives with wealth get confused.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    Good for your Dad's family and I presume your family have always been monarchists and Unionists?

    (My grandmother campaigned for Macmillan in Bromley and I have an ancestor through my mother's family who was an MP in the 16th century).
    My cousin Edward (Carson) was a noted Unionist... but he rebelled against the Crown in Parliament in the name of loyalty to the Crown Outwith (bloody lawyers!)

    In terms of the monarchy we were very close to Queen Anne but rather lost interest thereafter. The problem these days is that access to the royals is very easy if you are willing to pay enough
    So he was a Unionist, tick and still supported the principle of monarchy (as did your family in their closeness to Queen Anne), tick.

    Sounds like your family were proper Tories to me.


  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    Good for your Dad's family and I presume your family have always been monarchists and Unionists?

    (My grandmother campaigned for Macmillan in Bromley and I have an ancestor through my mother's family who was an MP in the 16th century).
    My cousin Edward (Carson) was a noted Unionist... but he rebelled against the Crown in Parliament in the name of loyalty to the Crown Outwith (bloody lawyers!)

    In terms of the monarchy we were very close to Queen Anne but rather lost interest thereafter. The problem these days is that access to the royals is very easy if you are willing to pay enough
    :)
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911

    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    When did the Conservatives start turning into the People's Front of Judea?

    Divided parties don't win elections.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    >
    That would only be the case if polling evidence showed Jeremy Hunt would beat Jeremy Corbyn but Boris, Davis and Gove would lose to Corbyn.

    Even then if we lost the Vale of Glamorgan because we were not led by Hunt and you voted Labour that would still not make you a Tory but a floating voter (which would be equally the case if we were led by Hunt and you voted Tory and we held the Vale of Glamorgan).

    'You are correct that I am not and never will be a Tory. However you have a once in a lifetime opportunity to take my vote because I find Corbyn, McDonnell and the whole Momentum bandwagon to be wholly unacceptable.

    Now someone like me might look favourably at a nice old-fashioned one-nation feudal Tory. The sort of socially liberal Tory Boris Johnson once purported to be. Despite his failings and subtle Machiavellian tendencies Hunt might fit the bill. So would Rudd for that matter.

    Johnson, Fox and Gove have proven themselves to be mealy-mouthed weasels, and floating voters from the left I suspect will find them unappealing. You need people like me to switch to avoid PM Corbyn. If I vote LD you still get Corbyn but I remain content that I didn't vote for him. Happy days!

    Davis is more interesting, now whereas I consider him to be an odious narcissistic oik, I can see others of my demeanour, particularly those with Brexit tendencies finding him appealing. I suspect however his ego and his casual campaigning style will catch him out. He is nonetheless a better bet than the other Brexit clowns mentioned earlier.

    As for JRM, as a party, you can't be serious!'


    If Hunt polls better against Corbyn than Boris, Fox, Gove or Davis once the leadership contest nears even I would consider him. Until then I remain to be convinced.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited November 2017
    kyf_100 said:

    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    When did the Conservatives start turning into the People's Front of Judea?

    Divided parties don't win elections.
    To be honest, there seems to be only one member of the PFJ.

    And a huge JPF that includes people with as diverse views as TSE, JRM, TM, Peter Bone and Anna Soubry.
  • kyf_100 said:

    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    When did the Conservatives start turning into the People's Front of Judea?

    Divided parties don't win elections.
    HYUFD's a one man Judean People's Front.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017
    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:



    I thought Tories were in favour of self-sufficiency rather than relying on the state... true Tories should be in favour of those who need social care in their dotage paying for it from their own estates!!

    No that is classical liberals, Tories were traditionally the party of the landed classes and the preservation of estates, though they absorbed many free market, classical liberals, like TSE, when the Tories became the main opponents of the Labour Party rather than the main opponents of the Liberal Party.


    Your answer should really be that true tories don't think the state should provide social care at all - leaving it to charities / family / private provision etc.

    No dementia tax, but no state involvement in social care either - is the tory way.

    But that's not what you believe, which is why i'm questioning your tory credentials.
    I believe National Insurance should pay for most social care which is a perfectly Tory principle.
    You believe in taxing the labour of those who don't have any assets to inherit to ensure that those with assets can pass them on to their own kids, untaxed.

    That is not conservatism. Unlike real tories, you believe in taxing labour to subsidize wealth.
    A majority of the country have some assets to inherit (60% of the country are still even home owners after all) and it is called National Insurance for a reason, it was set up precisely to ensure things like social care and welfare were insured for. It should return to those original principles. Plus of course you already have to use all of your assets over £23k, including your house in the case of residential care, to pay for social care.

    I would simply raise the amount of assets you can keep to £100k and keep your house exempt from liability for personal social care costs.

    I do not support raising taxes like income tax to pay for social care.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unitKingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    Good for your Dad's family and I presume your family have always been monarchists and Unionists?

    (My grandmother campaigned for Macmillan in Bromley and I have an ancestor through my mother's family who was an MP in the 16th century).
    My cousin Edward (Carson) was a noted Unionist... but he rebelled against the Crown in Parliament in the name of loyalty to the Crown Outwith (bloody lawyers!)

    In terms of the monarchy we were very close to Queen Anne but rather lost interest thereafter. The problem these days is that access to the royals is very easy if you are willing to pay enough
    So he was a Unionist, tick and still supported the principle of monarchy (as did your family in their closeness to Queen Anne), tick.

    Sounds like your family were proper Tories to me.


    Less of the "were" please!

    This is the first generation in over 150 years when we have no one interested in serving in a Tory Cabinet
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    kyf_100 said:

    This is an entertaining thread. Perhaps tomorrow we can have someone telling all the PB Labourites that we aren't Socialists.

    When did the Conservatives start turning into the People's Front of Judea?

    Divided parties don't win elections.
    We haven't : it's just @HYUFD !!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    My suggestion to those dissatisfied with the insufficient Conservativeness of various leading politicians/influential commentators such as TSE - would be that backing Jeremy Corbyn at the next GE would be an extremely effective way of registering your disapproval. ;)
  • @Charles

    I've found your tribes comment.

    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:

    Edit as a guide I'd say:

    Tories - George Gardiner
    Conservatives - Sir Tufton Bufton
    Constitutionalists - Bill Cash
    Whigs - Cranborne/Ancram
    Liberal Unionists - Hurd/Mayhew
    National Liberals - Heseltine, Nott
    Radicals - Thatcher

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1736815/#Comment_1736815
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unity of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    "My dad's family..." guffaw!

    You're likely to have over a 1000 ancestors in the 1690s (assuming that's an average of 10 generations back). One line might have been true Tories but other of your ancestors are just as likely to have been Whigs or even (shock-horror!) poor, ordinary, non-entities tilling the ground or tending sheep.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    SeanT said:

    FPT:

    This Irish border question has been getting worse with the new boy:

    A new cold wind has been blowing from Dublin this week on the vexed issue of the Irish land border. The previous Irish position of preparing for a technological solution to minimise border disruption has been overturned. Enda Kenny, Taoiseach until June, had implicitly accepted that a border would be necessary, and had begun preparations, along with the British, to minimise disruption. Quiet contacts had been taking place between officials north and south of the border. As the new Fine Gael government team led by Leo Varadkar has found its feet all of that has begun to change.

    First the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, said that no border is acceptable. Another government spokesman said that no technological solutions could make a border acceptable. Then in Brussels last week, Leo Varadkar said that the border was Britain’s not Ireland’s problem and that Irish work on technological solutions would cease.


    https://policyexchange.org.uk/irish-border-and-brexit/

    WAR.
    Well that escalated quickly...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,274
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    Good for your Dad's family and I presume your family have always been monarchists and Unionists?

    (My grandmother campaigned for Macmillan in Bromley and I have an ancestor through my mother's family who was an MP in the 16th century).
    My cousin Edward (Carson) was a noted Unionist... but he rebelled against the Crown in Parliament in the name of loyalty to the Crown Outwith (bloody lawyers!)

    In terms of the monarchy we were very close to Queen Anne but rather lost interest thereafter. The problem these days is that access to the royals is very easy if you are willing to pay enough
    So he was a Unionist, tick and still supported the principle of monarchy (as did your family in their closeness to Queen Anne), tick.

    Sounds like your family were proper Tories to me.


    Less of the "were" please!

    This is the first generation in over 150 years when we have no one interested in serving in a Tory Cabinet
    Good grief! How are you coping?!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    Common sense?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    rkrkrk said:

    SeanT said:

    FPT:

    This Irish border question has been getting worse with the new boy:

    A new cold wind has been blowing from Dublin this week on the vexed issue of the Irish land border. The previous Irish position of preparing for a technological solution to minimise border disruption has been overturned. Enda Kenny, Taoiseach until June, had implicitly accepted that a border would be necessary, and had begun preparations, along with the British, to minimise disruption. Quiet contacts had been taking place between officials north and south of the border. As the new Fine Gael government team led by Leo Varadkar has found its feet all of that has begun to change.

    First the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, said that no border is acceptable. Another government spokesman said that no technological solutions could make a border acceptable. Then in Brussels last week, Leo Varadkar said that the border was Britain’s not Ireland’s problem and that Irish work on technological solutions would cease.


    https://policyexchange.org.uk/irish-border-and-brexit/

    WAR.
    Well that escalated quickly...
    Wine o'clock!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited November 2017
    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    It would prove Remain was right, again.

    Brexit would lead to conflict*

    *Note David Cameron never said Brexit would lead to World War III.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    Common sense?
    Moral decency?

    That it would certainly mean the end of the government, and probably the UK?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Ireland not part of NATO though - which at least reduces the chance of occupation by the Americans.
    I suspect they’d be tempted anyway given the close relations...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    edited November 2017
    SeanT said:

    FPT:

    This Irish border question has been getting worse with the new boy:

    A new cold wind has been blowing from Dublin this week on the vexed issue of the Irish land border. The previous Irish position of preparing for a technological solution to minimise border disruption has been overturned. Enda Kenny, Taoiseach until June, had implicitly accepted that a border would be necessary, and had begun preparations, along with the British, to minimise disruption. Quiet contacts had been taking place between officials north and south of the border. As the new Fine Gael government team led by Leo Varadkar has found its feet all of that has begun to change.

    First the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, said that no border is acceptable. Another government spokesman said that no technological solutions could make a border acceptable. Then in Brussels last week, Leo Varadkar said that the border was Britain’s not Ireland’s problem and that Irish work on technological solutions would cease.


    https://policyexchange.org.uk/irish-border-and-brexit/

    WAR.
    ...huh, good God y'all
    What is it good for?
    Absolutely nothing, say it again.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    edited November 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    Common sense?
    Moral decency?

    That it would certainly mean the end of the government, and probably the UK?
    Almost certainly occupation by US troops....

    EDIT: See you had considered that. The Donald would LOVE to secure re-election by getting his parade down Whitehall...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    No it doesn't, it makes him a free market liberal who happens to think the Conservative Party is a better vehicle for his political ambitions than the Liberal Democrat Party. It does not make him a Tory given he is a republican who has no commitment to maintain the unitKingdom and its overseas territories.

    Mexicanpete is a potential swing voter, again that does not make him a Tory. Anyone who would consider voting for Corbyn over Boris, Davis or Gove as he would is clearly not a committed Tory.

    Successive Tory PMs (including the current one) and Boris have consistently endorsed or carried out actions that do not maintain the unity of the the UK's overseas territories.

    But Mrs Thatcher as Prime Minister was consistently a free market liberal, and she also enraged the Northern Ireland Unionists, they all resigned their seats to trigger by elections.

    But by your definition she's not a Tory.

    Plus pop quiz hot shot, who said this.

    '"The problem is, the Queen is the kind of woman who could vote SDP.'
    If @HYUFD is using the old definition (that roughly equates to Ultra/Ditchers in the analysis of Tory tribes) his purist party has about 6 MPs.
    No it doesn't, about 70-80% of the country are monarchists, most voters supported retaking the Falklands and even most Scots and Northern Irish vote for Unionist Parties, let alone Tory voters and Tory MPs.
    My Dad's family have been active in the Tory Party since the 1690s (we split with the Whigs over their plans for inflationary deficit financing of government expenditure).

    We've got a pretty good sense of how the Tory party works
    Good for your Dad's family and I presume your family have always been monarchists and Unionists?

    (My grandmother campaigned for Macmillan in Bromley and I have an ancestor through my mother's family who was an MP in the 16th century).
    My cousin
    So he was a Unionist, tick and still supported the principle of monarchy (as did your family in their closeness to Queen Anne), tick.

    Sounds like your family were proper Tories to me.


    Less of the "were" please!

    This is the first generation in over 150 years when we have no one interested in serving in a Tory Cabinet
    Can't afford the pay cut I presume?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    HYUFD said:

    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hunt has played a good long game. He has converted to Brexit late in the day, but has not been tainted by touching Brexit directly like others have.

    If Brexit turns into a shambles Hunt can still say he voted remain but changed his mind to commit to the will of the people, absolving himself of any blame.

    Hunt has put himself in a position where he can have his cake and eat it. Had Boris chosen this strategy he would now be unassailable. Hunt has played a blinder and 100/1 could be value bet of the millennium!

    Hunt will have to commit to leaving the single market as well as the EU and ending free movement as most Tories want, though I think a third successive Remainer leading a majority Leaver party may well be a step too far for the majority of Tories.
    Yes he can commit to all those red line issues because 'it was the will of the people'. If it goes wrong he can still say he was only supporting what the voters wanted because he is a democrat, and by the way he has it on record that he supported remain. Genius.

    I am sure blue-rinse Tories respect damascene conversions to their point of view too!

    He is easy on the ear and eye and doesn't come across as an absolute charlatan -although he may well be exactly that!
    Fine in theory for Hunt, problem is as the old saying goes 'try and please everyone, end up pleasing no one!'
    For someone not generally of the Tory persuasion I would prefer Prime Minister Hunt to PM Corbyn. If the choice were Corbyn versus, Johnson, Gove or Davis, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of them, but then in June 2016 Corbyn didn't wilfully choose to send my country in a downward spiral to economic oblivion, although he did f. all to prevent it!
    Yes but you are in the minority of likely potential Tory voters.
    You make the most incredible sweeping statements. If you don't want or need my vote, so be it! Comrade Corbyn it is then!
    @HYUFD likes to declare people non-Tories. Others are more accommodating
    Anyone who.
    With respect; until you're able to reconcile yourself with the dementia tax, you're not a tory either.
    The dementia tax was, of course, the very definition of a non Tory measure.

    Tories have always supported the preservation of estates and inherited wealth, unlike socialists and free market Liberals.

    But it was in the manifesto so, as a Tory, you must support it.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    @Charles

    I've found your tribes comment.

    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:

    Edit as a guide I'd say:

    Tories - George Gardiner
    Conservatives - Sir Tufton Bufton
    Constitutionalists - Bill Cash
    Whigs - Cranborne/Ancram
    Liberal Unionists - Hurd/Mayhew
    National Liberals - Heseltine, Nott
    Radicals - Thatcher

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1736815/#Comment_1736815

    Glad to see you have now affirmed your firm commitment to keeping Northern Ireland in the UK then
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2017
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    It would prove Remain was right, again.

    Brexit would lead to conflict*

    *Note David Cameron never said Brexit would lead to World War III.
    Who gives a scintilla of an iota of a microscopical fuck? The Irish are useless whingeing parasites, and they're due another Famine.
    Might be best not to go on a book signing to Dublin anytime soon I think.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    A hell of a lot of "lost" explosives and weapons, and a lot of experience in setting off bombs on the mainland UK. Anything else?
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    It would prove Remain was right, again.

    Brexit would lead to conflict*

    *Note David Cameron never said Brexit would lead to World War III.
    Who gives a scintilla of an iota of a microscopical fuck? The Irish are useless whingeing parasites, and they're due another Famine.
    I wondered how long it would be before someone demanded we confiscated the Irish's potatoes. Amazing that it was you!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,585
    We were all playing so nicely then SeanT woke up!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    dixiedean said:

    rkrkrk said:

    dixiedean said:

    SeanT said:

    Can someone explain to me why there is something preventing us from bombing the fuck out of these Irish c*nts, and reducing Dublin to a pile of old rancid cat food and Georgian rubble?

    Common sense?
    Moral decency?

    That it would certainly mean the end of the government, and probably the UK?
    Almost certainly occupation by US troops....

    EDIT: See you had considered that. The Donald would LOVE to secure re-election by getting his parade down Whitehall...
    Oh God yes you’re right....
    In practice I suspect the govt would fall faster than the US could mobilise...
    And from then on we would be grovelling, sending leading politicians to The Hague etc.
This discussion has been closed.