Who says we want a soft Brexit? Or a hard one? The voters said we want a Brexit. The kind of Brexit wasn't specified. The Government agreed to do what the voters said. So any kind of Brexit qualifies. What's to complain about?
And if we didn't want borders - proper ones where people can be stopped and turned back - why did we vote for Brexit? Proper borders, properly controlled by ourselves as a sovereign and independent state, is surely the essence of Brexit. So surely we have to restore a hard border at our borders, which obviously means in Ireland, as in Gibraltar and other points of contact with the rest of the world.
What's the problem?
Migration control doesn't occur at the border.
You can buy a ticket today to go to any of the USA, Canada or Australia without a visa. Good luck getting a job or permanent property without one though.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Under such circumstances the reasonable British response should be to say that the Irish can argue it with the EU but we are going for the sort of border that suits up. Who knows, the way Irish politics is going we may well be back with a more sensible government in Dublin in the new year.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
Then t
So we ignore the so called democratic mandate. The evidence is now appearing that the election was rigged by the Russians and their puppets in the Leave campaign so that the UK would suffer long term damage. It won't take too much effort on behalf of a government showing what the Security Services have and the Electoral Commission throwing out a few lawsuits to provide them with enough to be able to show the public were deceived. If need be you rerun the referendum, only this time you provide fully costed options for, say, Remain, EEA or Leave. After all "you can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but not all of the people all of the time".
As for the Irish issue, its not trade that is most important to us, it is security. The various agreements that ended the troubles were based on there not being a border. Reinstate the border and, some say, the troubles will return. It isn't worth waiting for another Londonderry bombing to find out whether that is true.
Yokel put it well when he described Putin as a chancer, nothing more.
He's not Bloefeld. Nor is Russia anything like as powerful as the USSR in Stalin's time, when it had agents everywhere and had penetrated most Western agencies.
Yes, he might run troll-farms on Facebook and Twitter. Yes, he might have a few hackers. Yes, he might have even conceivably funnelled tens of thousands via Aaron Banks via an intermediary, somehow.
But, he did not control Gove, Boris, Cummings, Baker or Stuart. Nor did he devise the strategy, attend the debates, produce or deliver the leaflets, or hold public meetings, or brainwash people via a raygun.
It's as ludicrous as suggesting that he actively had Craig Oliver under his spell, to deliberately run such a crap and ineffective Remain campaign.
But if his machinations were enough to get 2% of the population to swing from Remain to Leave...
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
The position that the EU have adopted on Ireland makes no sense whatsoever. How can we possibly resolve what our border with Ireland is going to be until we know what our relationship with the EU is going to be?
At one time I thought this could be used as a backdoor way of discussing the nature of that relationship going forward but we now have the truly absurd position that they are threatening not to discuss that relationship until we agree the border arrangements with an EU member state.
What we are saying is that we want a free trade deal with the EU with minimal disruption at the borders of the Customs Union. It is the EU who is trying to say that we can't have a FTA without freedom of movement because these things are supposedly indivisible (not sure how Canada feels about that).
If we get what we want the Irish border should be a minor inconvenience. If the EU hold to their position (which of course they are entitled to do, however, irrational) then it will be much more of a problem for both sides of the border. These issues are resolvable but only if there is rapid negotiation on the practicalities and details now. The idea that Ireland may seek to prevent those discussions is just bonkers.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but I am really struggling to understand how preventing detailed talks about our future relationship with the EU is in their interests at all. It just isn't and it is pretty obvious their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
I cannot imagine why this line of thinking would rile the Irish in any way at all. The Brits know what is best for the Irish, but the Irish are just too pig-headed to see it. That should work as a negotiating tactic. The fact that it isn't is all the Irish's fault.
We tear up our membership card, and are then aghast that the remaining members don't give us what we want. Awesome!
Ireland's attitude is about as smart as a toddler saying they'll hold their breath until they get what they want.
The Irish know that there is only one country that does worse out of a No Deal Brexit than they do.
Good luck trying to get any kind of meaningful post-Brexit US support for the UK if we are seen to have bullied Ireland over the border. The Irish American lobby is kind of strong.
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Most working age voters voted remain, didn't they?
Who says we want a soft Brexit? Or a hard one? The voters said we want a Brexit. The kind of Brexit wasn't specified. The Government agreed to do what the voters said. So any kind of Brexit qualifies. What's to complain about?
And if we didn't want borders - proper ones where people can be stopped and turned back - why did we vote for Brexit? Proper borders, properly controlled by ourselves as a sovereign and independent state, is surely the essence of Brexit. So surely we have to restore a hard border at our borders, which obviously means in Ireland, as in Gibraltar and other points of contact with the rest of the world.
What's the problem?
Migration control doesn't occur at the border.
You can buy a ticket today to go to any of the USA, Canada or Australia without a visa. Good luck getting a job or permanent property without one though.
Well, not just at the border, obviously, but it sure as hell helps to have a one - a proper one - if you want to control immigration.
I recall being asked questions at the US border last time I travelled through. In fact purely by chance I was stopped and questioned close to the Canadian border last time I was there as I was driving in Upper New York State.
Obviously a physical border where pople are stopped and can be turned back is an important part of a sovereign state's right of self-determination and self control.
I don't see what the argument is about. Give the electors what they voted for for - borders which we can control. Doesn't matter what the Irish think.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Under such circumstances the reasonable British response should be to say that the Irish can argue it with the EU but we are going for the sort of border that suits up. Who knows, the way Irish politics is going we may well be back with a more sensible government in Dublin in the new year.
The UK has not shown how an electronic border would work.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain remain part of the European Union or leave the European Union". That's all. Not migration or the NHS or the EEA or the CU. The EU and only the EU. The EU is a legally specific entity so were it not for people conflating it with all these other things it would be extremely simple.
Which is why the solution to Brexit is simple - Brexit. We leave the EU. What people voted for thus satisfying democracy. We don't leave the EEA or CU so that our economy continues to function. We end Freedom of Movement by imposing already available EU rules that mandate migrants to have a job or be removed.
We could do these things. But that cretin May and her band of dipshits have declared honouring the referendum to not be honouring the referendum.
EU freedom of movement rules do not mandate migrants to have a job or be removed. They give migrants freedom of movement for 3 months and they may not even have a job offer in those 3 months, before they must get a job.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
On the Irish question: the border arrangement is contingent upon the trade/customs position. Varadkar refusing to talk about the latter makes sorting out the former impossible.
Morning, Mr.D. I think "impossible" rather overstates the case. There are a limited number of possible trade/customs positions, and talking about different contingencies is not beyond the wit of even our negotiators.
Though, of course, the Irish stance doesn't make progress particularly easy.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Under such circumstances the reasonable British response should be to say that the Irish can argue it with the EU but we are going for the sort of border that suits up. Who knows, the way Irish politics is going we may well be back with a more sensible government in Dublin in the new year.
The UK has not shown how an electronic border would work.
They were working on that with the Irish until the Dublin administration decided it was apparently philosophically beyond the Pale.
The position that the EU have adopted on Ireland makes no sense whatsoever. How can we possibly resolve what our border with Ireland is going to be until we know what our relationship with the EU is going to be?
At one time I thought this could be used as a backdoor way of discussing the nature of that relationship going forward but we now have the truly absurd position that they are threatening not to discuss that relationship until we agree the border arrangements with an EU member state.
What we are saying is that we want a free trade deal with the EU with minimal disruption at the borders of the Customs Union. It is the EU who is trying to say that we can't have a FTA without freedom of movement because cticalities and details now. The idea that Ireland may seek to prevent those discussions is just bonkers.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but I am really struggling to understand how preventing detailed talks about our future relationship with the EU is in their interests at all. It just isn't and it is pretty obvious their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
I cannot imagine why this line of thinking would rile the Irish in any way at all. The Brits know what is best for the Irish, but the Irish are just too pig-headed to see it. That should work as a negotiating tactic. The fact that it isn't is all the Irish's fault.
We tear up our membership card, and are then aghast that the remaining members don't give us what we want. Awesome!
Ireland's attitude is about as smart as a toddler saying they'll hold their breath until they get what they want.
The Irish know that there is only one country that does worse out of a No Deal Brexit than they do.
Good luck trying to get any kind of meaningful post-Brexit US support for the UK if we are seen to have bullied Ireland over the border. The Irish American lobby is kind of strong.
We are not bullying Ireland over the border we want to sort it out through the FTA.
President Trump is half Scottish not half Irish and supported Brexit even before the UK voted for it.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain remain part of the European Union or leave the European Union". That's all. Not migration or the NHS or the EEA or the CU. The EU and only the EU. The EU is a legally specific entity so were it not for people conflating it with all these other things it would be extremely simple.
Which is why the solution to Brexit is simple - Brexit. We leave the EU. What people voted for thus satisfying democracy. We don't leave the EEA or CU so that our economy continues to function. We end Freedom of Movement by imposing already available EU rules that mandate migrants to have a job or be removed.
We could do these things. But that cretin May and her band of dipshits have declared honouring the referendum to not be honouring the referendum.
EU freedom of movement rules do not mandate migrants to have a job or be removed. They give migrants freedom of movement for 3 months and they may not even have a job offer in those 3 months, before they must get a job.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
Don’t understand this argument at all about transitional controls. They would have long since expired by 2016.
The Conservative Party does stand a few candidates in Northern Ireland but I cannot think of one seat in Northern Ireland where the DUP's main rivals for a seat are the Tories rather than SF, the SDLP or the UUP.
Indeed in 2010 the Tories and UUP stood on a joint ticket in Northern Ireland.
Tying oneself up to the UUP is a bit of a red rag to some at least DUP-ers. As I understand it, Protestant politics in N Ireland have more than a whiff of the Judean Peoples Front (et al) about them.
That was when the UUP actually had MPs rather than all Unionist MPs being DUP MPs
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Most working age voters voted remain, didn't they?
Most working class voters voted Leave, most middle class voters voted Remain.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The unacceptable.
Under such circumstances the reasonable British response should be to say that the Irish can argue it with the EU but we are going for the sort of border that suits up. Who knows, the way Irish politics is going we may well be back with a more sensible government in Dublin in the new year.
The UK has not shown how an electronic border would work.
They were working on that with the Irish until the Dublin administration decided it was apparently philosophically beyond the Pale.
I am not sure that is the case. Do you have any links?
The position that the EU have adopted on Ireland makes no sense whatsoever. How can we possibly resolve what our border with Ireland is going to be until we know what our relationship with the EU is going to be?
At one time I thought this could be used as a backdoor way of discussing the nature of that relationship going forward but we now have the truly absurd position that they are threatening not to discuss that relationship until we agree the border arrangements with an EU member state.
What we are saying is that we want a free trade deal with the EU with minimal disruption at the borders of the Customs Union. It is the EU who is trying to say that we can't have a FTA without freedom of movement because cticalities and details now. The idea that Ireland may seek to prevent those discussions is just bonkers.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but I am really struggling to understand how preventing detailed talks about our future relationship with the EU is in their interests at all. It just isn't and it is pretty obvious their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
I cannot imagine why this line of thinking would rile the Irish in any way at all. The Brits know what is best for the Irish, but the Irish are just too pig-headed to see it. That should work as a negotiating tactic. The fact that it isn't is all the Irish's fault.
We tear up our membership card, and are then aghast that the remaining members don't give us what we want. Awesome!
Ireland's attitude is about as smart as a toddler saying they'll hold their breath until they get what they want.
The Irish know that there is only one country that does worse out of a No Deal Brexit than they do.
Good luck trying to get any kind of meaningful post-Brexit US support for the UK if we are seen to have bullied Ireland over the border. The Irish American lobby is kind of strong.
We are not bullying Ireland over the border we want to sort it out through the FTA.
President Trump is half Scottish not half Irish and supported Brexit even before the UK voted for it.
Congress has to ratify any trade deal Trump agrees.
Varadkar is doing what we could be doing but aren't - looking after number one. FF would do it just as much as FG.
We can threaten to do trade deals now with the rest of the world. If the EU fine us, so what? Tell them where to go. France would. No point being nice to them on the off-chance they'll look kindly on us - they won't. We're not returning in the near future, so let's look after number one.
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Most working age voters voted remain, didn't they?
Most working class voters voted Leave, most middle class voters voted Remain.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain uring the referendum.
EU freedom of movement rules do not mandate migrants to have a job or be removed. They give migrants freedom of movement for 3 months and they may not even have a job offer in those 3 months, before they must get a job.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
Don’t understand this argument at all about transitional controls. They would have long since expired by 2016.
Germany for example imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe for the full 7 years it could from 2004 until they expired in 2011. Thus Germany has had no real issue with Eastern European migration unlike the UK, the main immigration issue in Germany is refugees from the Middle East let in by Merkel.
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Most working age voters voted remain, didn't they?
Most working class voters voted Leave, most middle class voters voted Remain.
I am not sure why Brexit has to be structured to assuage a specific grouping within the Leave demographic. Surely we should be looking for the best Brexit for the majority, not a minority. Can you tell me why working class Leave voters are a special case?
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Most working age voters voted remain, didn't they?
Most working class voters voted Leave, most middle class voters voted Remain.
Working class is not the same as working
The term the 'working man' is generally a term used to refer to a skilled working class male
Varadkar is doing what we could be doing but aren't - looking after number one. FF would do it just as much as FG.
We can threaten to do trade deals now with the rest of the world. If the EU fine us, so what? Tell them where to go. France would. No point being nice to them on the off-chance they'll look kindly on us - they won't. We're not returning in the near future, so let's look after number one.
Who is going to do a trade deal with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised?
I wonder what’s in it for Varadkar? Yes, he’s got a minoirity govenment but everything was working OK until Kenny had to go. If he’s picking a fight..... and worse, tearing up what was already done is it ‘just’ to dish the opposition? Or wave a flag to be rallied round?
Varadkar upped the ante, but I don't think any Irish person involved in Brexit thought it was going OK. Kenny certainly didn't.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 saying UK Govt approach could be made to work - technical solutions where they can be made to work and a blind eye where the minor areas where they can't......
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Most working age voters voted remain, didn't they?
Most working class voters voted Leave, most middle class voters voted Remain.
Working class is not the same as working
The term the 'working man' is generally a term used to refer to a skilled working class male
Isn’t it usually C2DE? And what about females anyway?
The position that the EU have adopted on Ireland makes no sense whatsoever. How can we possibly resolve what our border with Ireland is going to be until we know what our relationship with the EU is going to be?
At one time I thought this could be used as a backdoor way of discussing the nature of that relationship going forward but we now have the truly absurd position that they are threatening not to discuss that is just bonkers.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but I am really struggling to understand how preventing detailed talks about our future relationship with the EU is in their interests at all. It just isn't and it is pretty obvious their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
I cannot imagine why this line of thinking would rile the Irish in any way at all. The Brits know what is best for the Irish, but the Irish are just too pig-headed to see it. That should work as a negotiating tactic. The fact that it isn't is all the Irish's fault.
We tear up our membership card, and are then aghast that the remaining members don't give us what we want. Awesome!
Ireland's attitude is about as smart as a toddler saying they'll hold their breath until they get what they want.
The Irish know that there is only one country that does worse out of a No Deal Brexit than they do.
Good luck trying to get any kind of meaningful post-Brexit US support for the UK if we are seen to have bullied Ireland over the border. The Irish American lobby is kind of strong.
We are not bullying Ireland over the border we want to sort it out through the FTA.
President Trump is half Scottish not half Irish and supported Brexit even before the UK voted for it.
Congress has to ratify any trade deal Trump agrees.
None of which has any direct connection to US interference in UK Irish negotiations over the border in UK EU FTA talks
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain uring the referendum.
EU freedom of movement rules do not mandate migrants to have a job or be removed. They give migrants freedom of movement for 3 months and they may not even have a job offer in those 3 months, before they must get a job.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
Don’t understand this argument at all about transitional controls. They would have long since expired by 2016.
Germany for example imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe for the full 7 years it could from 2004 until they expired in 2011. Thus Germany has had no real issue with Eastern European migration unlike the UK, the main immigration issue in Germany is refugees from the Middle East let in by Merkel.
I see no reason why the second sentence follows from the first. There could be any number of reasons for the lower Eastern European immigration to Germany - eg speaking English. And as you concede, the controls expired 6 years ago anyway.
The position that the EU have adopted on Ireland makes no sense whatsoever. How can we possibly resolve what our border with Ireland is going to be until we know what our relationship with the EU is going to be?
At one time I thought this could be used as a backdoor way of discussing the nature of that relationship going forward but we now have the truly that they arereatening not to discuss that relationshipnts with an EU member state.
What we are saying is that we want a free trade deal with the EU with minimal disruption at the borders of the Customs Union. It is the EU who is trying to say that we can't have a FTA without freedom of movement because these things are supposedly indivisible (not sure how Canada feels about that).
If we get what we want the Irish border should be a minor inconvenience. If the EU hold to their position (which of course they are entitled to do, however, irrational) then it will be much more of a problem for both sides of the border. These issues are resolvable but only if there is rapid negotiation on the practicalities and details now. The idea that Ireland may seek to prevent those discussions is just bonkers.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
Our government has rejected Soft Brexit and wants Hard Brexit. The Irish want Soft Brexit and HATE Hard Brexit. Each side can prevent the other getting the deal they want, in which case they get No Deal, which is a lot like Hard Brexit, but worse.
It's a classic prisoner's dilemma.
Rubbish. We want a soft Brexit. If we didn't May wouldn't have doubled the money on offer. But we may end up with a hard Brexit if we don't get on with it.
Who says we want a soft Brexit? Or a hard one? The voters said we want a Brexit. The kind of Brexit wasn't specified. The Government agreed to do what the voters said. So any kind of Brexit qualifies. What's to complain about?
And if we didn't want borders - proper ones where people can be stopped and turned back - why did we vote for Brexit? Proper borders, properly controlled by ourselves as a sovereign and independent state, is surely the essence of Brexit. So surely we have to restore a hard border at our borders, which obviously means in Ireland, as in Gibraltar and other points of contact with the rest of the world.
40 years ago the Mad Monk led the crusade to convert the Conservative Party to a Neo-Liberal Radical party. Because it made a lot of people well off it survived the transition.
40 years later we have BoJo Davis Fox and the Moggmeister successfully turning the Conservative Party into Anarchists. Forget your rules man, we don't obey your rules we do what we want. The Man is a Pig and needs to be smashed. Our way or the highway, we want to be at the top table but fuck your rules pig we do what we want. We want to take back control man, of our borders. A hard border? No man, not for us, just for you. Trade? WTO all the way. Problems? Just waive them through that's taking back control. WTO won't let us waive some through and not others? Fuck your rules man, we're the man now. Anarchy!!!!
Unlike the experiment with Monetarism, the experiment with Anarchy isn't backed by the man. The Tories patrons are well aware of the hideous damage this will bring and are against. All the business and lobby groups that were their friends are against. And as the jobs disappear the working man will be against as well. Bye bye Tories - will you doggedly insist a vote for Labour would destroy the economy even as you bring it to ruin discovering that The Man (EU, WTO) actually does have rules?
No. The government is taking us out of the single market entirely in accordance with the Leave vote, one of the 2 key reasons for a Leave vote being to end free movement and regain sovereignty and also aiming for a FTA with the EU.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Most working age voters voted remain, didn't they?
Most working class voters voted Leave, most middle class voters voted Remain.
Working class is not the same as working
The term the 'working man' is generally a term used to refer to a skilled working class male
Isn’t it usually C2DE? And what about females anyway?
C2DE voters were of course strong Leave voters, both male and female
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
As things stand we're heading toward a hard Border, a nasty economic shock for the Republic, direct rule in NI, civil disobedience towards Border infrastructure then a Border Poll. A border poll which unification will lose but by a previously unthinkable #indyref margin not 80/20 as previously. But the No majority will be based on declining demographics with a sense nationalists just have to wait. All of which will drain UK political and physical capital for years to come.
If Varadkar can see all that and is trying to prevent it good luck to him. And if we're stupid enough to drive NI off a cliff can we blame Irish nationalists for preparing to harvest what we sow ?
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for dum.
EU freedom of movement rules do not mandate migrants to have a job or be removed. They give migrants freedom of movement for 3 months and they may not even have a job offer in those 3 months, before they must get a job.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
Don’t understand this argument at all about transitional controls. They would have long since expired by 2016.
Germany for example imposed transition controls on free movement from Eastern Europe for the full 7 years it could from 2004 until they expired in 2011. Thus Germany has had no real issue with Eastern European migration unlike the UK, the main immigration issue in Germany is refugees from the Middle East let in by Merkel.
I see no reason why the second sentence follows from the first. There could be any number of reasons for the lower Eastern European immigration to Germany - eg speaking English. And as you concede, the controls expired 6 years ago anyway.
English is not the main language in any Eastern European nation and Germany is geographically closer. Transition controls were key.
The position that the EU have adopted on Ireland makes no sense whatsoever. How can we possibly resolve what our border with Ireland is going to be until we know what our relationship with the EU is going to be?
At one time I thought this could be used as a backdoor way of discussing the nature of that relationship going forward but we now have the truly absurd position that they are threatening not to discuss that is just bonkers.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but I am really struggling to understand how preventing detailed talks about our future relationship with the EU is in their interests at all. It just isn't and it is pretty obvious their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
I cannot imagine why this line of thinking would rile the Irish in any way at all. The Brits know what is best for the Irish, but the Irish are just too pig-headed to see it. That should work as a negotiating tactic. The fact that it isn't is all the Irish's fault.
We tear up our membership card, and are then aghast that the remaining members don't give us what we want. Awesome!
Ireland's attitude is about as smart as a toddler saying they'll hold their breath until they get what they want.
The Irish know that there is only one country that does worse out of a No Deal Brexit than they do.
Good luck trying to get any kind of meaningful post-Brexit US support for the UK if we are seen to have bullied Ireland over the border. The Irish American lobby is kind of strong.
We are not bullying Ireland over the border we want to sort it out through the FTA.
President Trump is half Scottish not half Irish and supported Brexit even before the UK voted for it.
Congress has to ratify any trade deal Trump agrees.
None of which has any direct connection to US interference in UK Irish negotiations over the border in UK EU FTA talks
Oh God, Hoey now pushing the 'wouldn't be surprised if ROI wants to join the Yookay in leaving the EU' line, though the customary Brexiteer red mist seemed to have descended by then.
On Ireland, Britain is entitled to interpret the referendum decision as a mandate to restrict freedom of movement and reimpose immigration controls. The EU in turn is entitled to insist that is inconsistent with Single Market membership. The Republic of Ireland is in turn entitled to press that both positions be reconciled with the Good Friday Agreement and their strong wish for no hard border with Northern Ireland.
For some reason, Leavers don't seem to get past the first of these three.
1. Agree 2. Most leavers have accepted that FoM is part of the SM I believe? It's ususally the anti-Brexit camp that is pushing the SM case 3. I don't think anyone has argued that Ireland isn't entitled to push for this. Criticism has focused on the fact they are playing politics with peace and that their tactics seem odd
The Leaver position on 3 can usually on close examination be seen to be "how dare they?". I think the Republic of Ireland will probably cave eventually but I'm not certain they will and their position is considerably more logical than the British position which can be fairly transcribed as "we don't want to think about this".
Ando the Irish position is "we don't want a border so we'll stop the talks as a result of which there's going to be a hard border". You couldn't make it up. B-)
For the Irish, No deal really is better than a bad deal. It's a fairly simple concept.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
Our government has rejected Soft Brexit and wants Hard Brexit. The Irish want Soft Brexit and HATE Hard Brexit. Each side can prevent the other getting the deal they want, in which case they get No Deal, which is a lot like Hard Brexit, but worse.
It's a classic prisoner's dilemma.
Rubbish. We want a soft Brexit. If we didn't May wouldn't have doubled the money on offer. But we may end up with a hard Brexit if we don't get on with it.
Who says we want a soft Brexit? Or a hard one? The voters said we want a Brexit. The kind of Brexit wasn't specified. The Government agreed to do what the voters said. So any kind of Brexit qualifies. What's to complain about?
And if we didn't want borders - proper ones where people can be stopped and turned back - why did we vote for Brexit? Proper borders, properly controlled by ourselves as a sovereign and independent state, is surely the essence of Brexit. So surely we have to restore a hard border at our borders, which obviously means in Ireland, as in Gibraltar and other points of contact with the rest of the world.
What's the problem?
Yep.
But no-one at all is suggesting an end to the Common Travel Area between the UK and RoI. Any land border between the two countries will be purely a goods border with no passport checks required.
As things stand we're heading toward a hard Border, a nasty economic shock for the Republic, direct rule in NI, civil disobedience towards Border infrastructure then a Border Poll. A border poll which unification will lose but by a previously unthinkable #indyref margin not 80/20 as previously. But the No majority will be based on declining demographics with a sense nationalists just have to wait. All of which will drain UK political and physical capital for years to come.
If Varadkar can see all that and is trying to prevent it good luck to him. And if we're stupid enough to drive NI off a cliff can we blame Irish nationalists for preparing to harvest what we sow ?
No we are heading for a FTA which will include discussion of the Irish border and any special circumstances for it.
We are also not heading for any border poll as long as the DUP wins most seats at Stormont in Northern Ireland (assuming it eventually resumes its functions).
As things stand we're heading toward a hard Border, a nasty economic shock for the Republic, direct rule in NI, civil disobedience towards Border infrastructure then a Border Poll. A border poll which unification will lose but by a previously unthinkable #indyref margin not 80/20 as previously. But the No majority will be based on declining demographics with a sense nationalists just have to wait. All of which will drain UK political and physical capital for years to come.
If Varadkar can see all that and is trying to prevent it good luck to him. And if we're stupid enough to drive NI off a cliff can we blame Irish nationalists for preparing to harvest what we sow ?
No we are heading for a FTA which will include discussion of the Irish border and any special circumstances for it.
We are also not heading for any border poll as long as the DUP wins most seats at Stormont in Northern Ireland (assuming it eventually resumes its functions).
We're only heading to an FTA if the Irish agree to it.
As things stand we're heading toward a hard Border, a nasty economic shock for the Republic, direct rule in NI, civil disobedience towards Border infrastructure then a Border Poll. A border poll which unification will lose but by a previously unthinkable #indyref margin not 80/20 as previously. But the No majority will be based on declining demographics with a sense nationalists just have to wait. All of which will drain UK political and physical capital for years to come.
If Varadkar can see all that and is trying to prevent it good luck to him. And if we're stupid enough to drive NI off a cliff can we blame Irish nationalists for preparing to harvest what we sow ?
No we are heading for a FTA which will include discussion of the Irish border and any special circumstances for it.
We are also not heading for any border poll as long as the DUP wins most seats at Stormont in Northern Ireland (assuming it eventually resumes its functions).
We're only heading to an FTA if the Irish agree to it.
Which will be decided over the course of lengthy negotiations which begin next month
I’m quite aware that English is not the national language of Romania and Poland thank you. But English is easily the most popular 2nd language in these counties, especially amongst the under 40s. If you are looking to move abroad for work you are likely to choose somewhere where you speak the language.
I just don’t think these transitional controls would have had anywhere near the effect you think they would have - at best they would have delayed the “problem” of the surge in immigration to 2011 instead of 2004. It would still have been presented as an issue in the referendum.
I love the idea that Britain can proceed on a non-economic basis but when others do they're irrational or bonkers.
We proceed in what the majority thinks to be in our best interests. Ireland should do the same but their Taoiseach is having a go at the Brits to bolster his weak position. That may be in his personal interests but it is not in Ireland's.
Our government has rejected Soft Brexit and wants Hard Brexit. The Irish want Soft Brexit and HATE Hard Brexit. Each side can prevent the other getting the deal they want, in which case they get No Deal, which is a lot like Hard Brexit, but worse.
It's a classic prisoner's dilemma.
Rubbish. We want a soft Brexit. If we didn't May wouldn't have doubled the money on offer. But we may end up with a hard Brexit if we don't get on with it.
Who says we want a soft Brexit? Or a hard one? The voters said we want a Brexit. The kind of Brexit wasn't specified. The Government agreed to do what the voters said. So any kind of Brexit qualifies. What's to complain about?
And if we didn't want borders - proper ones where people can be stopped and turned back - why did we vote for Brexit? Proper borders, properly controlled by ourselves as a sovereign and independent state, is surely the essence of Brexit. So surely we have to restore a hard border at our borders, which obviously means in Ireland, as in Gibraltar and other points of contact with the rest of the world.
What's the problem?
Yep.
But no-one at all is suggesting an end to the Common Travel Area between the UK and RoI. Any land border between the two countries will be purely a goods border with no passport checks required.
"Who is going to do a trade deal with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised?"
We can start negotiating now. It will save time later and it's a reminder to the EU that they aren't the only game in town. There's no point lying down if the EU want to be awkward. That's the way the encourage them.
I know a few Euro-fanatics want us to take a beating just to make a point, but come on ...You're not amongst them.
Oh God, Hoey now pushing the 'wouldn't be surprised if ROI wants to join the Yookay in leaving the EU' line, though the customary Brexit red mist seemed too have descended by then.
Yep, this is the Brexiteer fantasy: the Irish leave the EU and join the UK in a Council of the Isles, or something similar. Coincidentally, the Council will have its HQ in London and the British monarch will be at its head. That idea should go down a treat in Dublin!!!
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
Then t
So we
As for the Irish issue, its not trade that is most important to us, it is security. The various agreements that ended the troubles were based on there not being a border. Reinstate the border and, some say, the troubles will return. It isn't worth waiting for another Londonderry bombing to find out whether that is true.
Yokel put it well when he described Putin as a chancer, nothing more.
He's not Bloefeld. Nor is Russia anything like as powerful as the USSR in Stalin's time, when it had agents everywhere and had penetrated most Western agencies.
Yes, he might run troll-farms on Facebook and Twitter. Yes, he might have a few hackers. Yes, he might have even conceivably funnelled tens of thousands via Aaron Banks via an intermediary, somehow.
But, he did not control Gove, Boris, Cummings, Baker or Stuart. Nor did he devise the strategy, attend the debates, produce or deliver the leaflets, or hold public meetings, or brainwash people via a raygun.
It's as ludicrous as suggesting that he actively had Craig Oliver under his spell, to deliberately run such a crap and ineffective Remain campaign.
But if his machinations were enough to get 2% of the population to swing from Remain to Leave...
Trouble with that is the vote was so close that lots of things affected it.
The tragedy of Jo Cox might have caused a late swing of 2% from Leave to Remain, as Matthew Goodwin has argued, and would otherwise have won 54/46.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border). http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/eservices/overview-sommaire-eng.html
"Who is going to do a trade deal with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised?"
We can start negotiating now. It will save time later and it's a reminder to the EU that they aren't the only game in town. There's no point lying down if the EU want to be awkward. That's the way the encourage them.
I know a few Euro-fanatics want us to take a beating just to make a point, but come on ...You're not amongst them.
There is nothing to talk about until the UK's relationship with the EU is finalised. Clearly, a No Deal UK is a very different prospect to one that has an FTA, for example.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
I am not sure that is the case. Do you have any links?
Enda Kenny, Taoiseach until June, had implicitly accepted that a border would be necessary, and had begun preparations, along with the British, to minimise disruption. Quiet contacts had been taking place between officials north and south of the border. As the new Fine Gael government team led by Leo Varadkar has found its feet all of that has begun to change.
First the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, said that no border is acceptable. Another government spokesman said that no technological solutions could make a border acceptable. Then in Brussels last week, Leo Varadkar said that the border was Britain’s not Ireland’s problem and that Irish work on technological solutions would cease. Most strikingly he also said that the border should be moved to the Irish Sea.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
I’m quite aware that English is not the national language of Romania and Poland thank you. But English is easily the most popular 2nd language in these counties, especially amongst the under 40s. If you are looking to move abroad for work you are likely to choose somewhere where you speak the language.
I just don’t think these transitional controls would have had anywhere near the effect you think they would have - at best they would have delayed the “problem” of the surge in immigration to 2011 instead of 2004. It would still have been presented as an issue in the referendum.
The whole point of transition controls is they control who you let into the country regardless of the demand from Eastern European countries rather than the free movement free for all Blair effectively allowed in 2004.
You are wrong, the lack of transition controls on Eastern European migration from 2004 was the key reason Leave got over 50%, with them Leave would have been closer to 40 than 50% if their had been as much demand for an EU referendum at all.
There would have been no surge in 2011 as there was not in Germany as Eastern European nations would have been in the EU for 7 years already and their migration patterns established and controlled.
Even if they do, which I doubt, it would only take one veto. The EU is obdurate and has vast problems with producing any consensus, and has no particular interest in looking for a consensus. Democracy it aint.
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain remain part of the European Union or leave the European Union". That's all. Not migration or the NHS or the EEA or the CU. The EU and only the EU. The EU is a legally specific entity so were it not for people conflating it with all these other things it would be extremely simple.
Which is why the solution to Brexit is simple - Brexit. We leave the EU. What people voted for thus satisfying democracy. We don't leave the EEA or CU so that our economy continues to function. We end Freedom of Movement by imposing already available EU rules that mandate migrants to have a job or be removed.
We could do these things. But that cretin May and her band of dipshits have declared honouring the referendum to not be honouring the referendum.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
It was working on solutions with the Irish - but Varadkar cancelled it......
The UK has not shown how an electronic border would work.
There was an unpublished report by the Irish Revenue that spells out the explosion of red tape following the UK exit from the EU customs union.
"While some form of common travel area may exist post-Brexit, a completely open border is not possible from a customs perspective...It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EI/UK land frontier."
It then describes the border posts that would have to be set up.
Apparently the ploughs for the national ploughing competition would need temporary import licences.
The politics of the report being leaked was the opposition accusing Fine Gael of not being open about the border and selling Ireland out.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
We were talking to the Irish about it (in private, as these important things should be done rather than through the media). They got a new government and called the whole thing off and said it’s up to the British to say how the RoI and EU will police their own border.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
The Irish government have previously dismissed the US-Canada border as too 'hard' a border.
They want either no border, or an Irish sea border that eventually leads to unification. And the reality from yesterdays poll is that a plurality of NI voters agree with that.
I’m quite aware that English is not the national language of Romania and Poland thank you. But English is easily the most popular 2nd language in these counties, especially amongst the under 40s. If you are looking to move abroad for work you are likely to choose somewhere where you speak the language.
I just don’t think these transitional controls would have had anywhere near the effect you think they would have - at best they would have delayed the “problem” of the surge in immigration to 2011 instead of 2004. It would still have been presented as an issue in the referendum.
The whole point of transition controls is they control who you let into the country regardless of the demand from Eastern European countries rather than the free movement free for all Blair effectively allowed in 2004.
You are wrong, the lack of transition controls on Eastern European migration from 2004 was the key reason Leave got over 50%, with them Leave would have been closer to 40 than 50% if their had been as much demand for an EU referendum at all.
There would have been no surge in 2011 as there was not in Germany as Eastern European nations would have been in the EU for 7 years already and their migration patterns established and controlled.
As I keep pointing out, your use of Germany as a comparator is specious. Completely different lanagauge, culture and - most importantly of all - economy.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
It was working on solutions with the Irish - but Varadkar cancelled it......
I have heard this a couple of times, do you have a link to more info? It's genuinely news to me so I'd be interested to learn more as I'm surprised the UK government has failed to make this clear.
I have heard this a couple of times, do you have a link to more info? It's genuinely news to me so I'd be interested to learn more as I'm surprised the UK government has failed to make this clear.
Posted upthread.
Ruth Dudley Edwards also remarked on this in the FT a couple of days ago.
The previous Taoiseach, the 66-year-old Enda Kenny, was less clever and articulate than his successor, but he was experienced and wily, as well as accommodating, and was given to defusing rather than exacerbating tension. With Anglo-Irish relations better than they had ever been, Brexit came as a shock to the Irish government, but Mr Kenny set out to be constructive by initiating work on electronic border technology that Mr Varadkar then cancelled.
Mr Varadkar seems not to have done much homework on either Northern Ireland or Brexit, and he is lumbered with a foreign minister, Simon Coveney, who lost to him in the election for the leadership of the Fine Gael party, which governs with the aid of a handful of independents and a confidence-and-supply arrangement with Fianna Fáil.
For reasons to do with Ireland’s complex electoral system of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies, Mr Coveney keeps a nervous eye on the competition and courts the green vote, which has caused him to push a nationalist agenda and make bellicose statements about Brexit that Mr Varadkar began to echo.
Even if they do, which I doubt, it would only take one veto. The EU is obdurate and has vast problems with producing any consensus, and has no particular interest in looking for a consensus. Democracy it aint.
They are desperate for a deal. They need us more than we need them.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
We were talking to the Irish about it (in private, as these important things should be done rather than through the media). They got a new government and called the whole thing off and said it’s up to the British to say how the RoI and EU will police their own border.
Talking to them is not the same as working with them. We are talking to them now.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain uring the referendum.
EU freedom of movement rules do not mandate migrants to have a job or be removed. They give migrants freedom of movement for 3 months and they may not even have a job offer in those 3 months, before they must get a job.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
Don’t understand this argument at all about transitional controls. They would have long since expired by 2016.
. Thus Germany has had no real issue with Eastern European migration unlike the UK,
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
The interesting point surely is that a change of government in Dublin has radically changed what the Irish apparently perceive as bring in their own best interests. Under the previous administration the electronic border was apparently the answer to the issues and now suddenly it is unacceptable.
Bertie Aherne just on R4 just saying it could be made to work too.....
It already works for a large portion of the world’s longest land border, between the USA and Canada. Goods manifests are entered electronically in advance, local police and customs on both sides use intelligence and systems to target vehicles for checks on the road (not at the border).
Then why doesn't the UK actively propose that solution?
We were talking to the Irish about it (in private, as these important things should be done rather than through the media). They got a new government and called the whole thing off and said it’s up to the British to say how the RoI and EU will police their own border.
So secret were these discussions that they were in the press in July of last year?
I have heard this a couple of times, do you have a link to more info? It's genuinely news to me so I'd be interested to learn more as I'm surprised the UK government has failed to make this clear.
Posted upthread.
Ruth Dudley Edwards also remarked on this in the FT a couple of days ago.
The previous Taoiseach, the 66-year-old Enda Kenny, was less clever and articulate than his successor, but he was experienced and wily, as well as accommodating, and was given to defusing rather than exacerbating tension. With Anglo-Irish relations better than they had ever been, Brexit came as a shock to the Irish government, but Mr Kenny set out to be constructive by initiating work on electronic border technology that Mr Varadkar then cancelled.
Mr Varadkar seems not to have done much homework on either Northern Ireland or Brexit, and he is lumbered with a foreign minister, Simon Coveney, who lost to him in the election for the leadership of the Fine Gael party, which governs with the aid of a handful of independents and a confidence-and-supply arrangement with Fianna Fáil.
For reasons to do with Ireland’s complex electoral system of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies, Mr Coveney keeps a nervous eye on the competition and courts the green vote, which has caused him to push a nationalist agenda and make bellicose statements about Brexit that Mr Varadkar began to echo.
That does not look like evidence the Irish were working with the British on a solution. It looks like a writer claiming a politician she does not like did something she did not like. There must be more than that.
As things stand we're heading toward a hard Border, a nasty economic shock for the Republic, direct rule in NI, civil disobedience towards Border infrastructure then a Border Poll. A border poll which unification will lose but by a previously unthinkable #indyref margin not 80/20 as previously. But the No majority will be based on declining demographics with a sense nationalists just have to wait. All of which will drain UK political and physical capital for years to come.
If Varadkar can see all that and is trying to prevent it good luck to him. And if we're stupid enough to drive NI off a cliff can we blame Irish nationalists for preparing to harvest what we sow ?
The real problem for Brexiteers might actually turn out to be apathy amongst the general population towards Brexit. There are a large number of protestants in northern ireland who have already taken Irish passports. They just want to get on with their lives.
Can't we just try and focus on controlling immigration and regaining sovereignty? That is what people voted for. The obsession with trade has led to a dangerous diplomatic row with Ireland and has delayed moving Brexit forward. As far as I can see, it would be solved by staying in the customs union.
I have heard this a couple of times, do you have a link to more info? It's genuinely news to me so I'd be interested to learn more as I'm surprised the UK government has failed to make this clear.
Posted upthread.
Ruth Dudley Edwards also remarked on this in the FT a couple of days ago.
The previous Taoiseach, the 66-year-old Enda Kenny, was less clever and articulate than his successor, but he was experienced and wily, as well as accommodating, and was given to defusing rather than exacerbating tension. With Anglo-Irish relations better than they had ever been, Brexit came as a shock to the Irish government, but Mr Kenny set out to be constructive by initiating work on electronic border technology that Mr Varadkar then cancelled.
Mr Varadkar seems not to have done much homework on either Northern Ireland or Brexit, and he is lumbered with a foreign minister, Simon Coveney, who lost to him in the election for the leadership of the Fine Gael party, which governs with the aid of a handful of independents and a confidence-and-supply arrangement with Fianna Fáil.
For reasons to do with Ireland’s complex electoral system of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies, Mr Coveney keeps a nervous eye on the competition and courts the green vote, which has caused him to push a nationalist agenda and make bellicose statements about Brexit that Mr Varadkar began to echo.
That does not look like evidence the Irish were working with the British on a solution. It looks like a writer claiming a politician she does not like did something she did not like. There must be more than that.
See upthread. Maybe its two writers who don't like a politician?
Will you only accept evidence from writers who do like Varadkar?
I have heard this a couple of times, do you have a link to more info? It's genuinely news to me so I'd be interested to learn more as I'm surprised the UK government has failed to make this clear.
Posted upthread.
Ruth Dudley Edwards also remarked on this in the FT a couple of days ago.
The previous Taoiseach, the 66-year-old Enda Kenny, was less clever and articulate than his successor, but he was experienced and wily, as well as accommodating, and was given to defusing rather than exacerbating tension. With Anglo-Irish relations better than they had ever been, Brexit came as a shock to the Irish government, but Mr Kenny set out to be constructive by initiating work on electronic border technology that Mr Varadkar then cancelled.
Mr Varadkar seems not to have done much homework on either Northern Ireland or Brexit, and he is lumbered with a foreign minister, Simon Coveney, who lost to him in the election for the leadership of the Fine Gael party, which governs with the aid of a handful of independents and a confidence-and-supply arrangement with Fianna Fáil.
For reasons to do with Ireland’s complex electoral system of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies, Mr Coveney keeps a nervous eye on the competition and courts the green vote, which has caused him to push a nationalist agenda and make bellicose statements about Brexit that Mr Varadkar began to echo.
That does not look like evidence the Irish were working with the British on a solution. It looks like a writer claiming a politician she does not like did something she did not like. There must be more than that.
Dublin had seemed open to this idea. Former taoiseach Enda Kenny indulged the concept and the Revenue Commissioners had revealed preliminary work on the project, for both soft and hard Brexits. In a worst-case scenario, Ireland’s top customs official said documents would need to be checked for between 6%-8% of cross-border freight but only a “tiny number” of lorries would be physically inspected, as everything else could be done electronically or via glorified toll booths.
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain remain part of the European Union or leave the European Union". That's all. Not migration or the NHS or the EEA or the CU. The EU and only the EU. The EU is a legally specific entity so were it not for people conflating it with all these other things it would be extremely simple.
Which is why the solution to Brexit is simple - Brexit. We leave the EU. What people voted for thus satisfying democracy. We don't leave the EEA or CU so that our economy continues to function. We end Freedom of Movement by imposing already available EU rules that mandate migrants to have a job or be removed.
We could do these things. But that cretin May and her band of dipshits have declared honouring the referendum to not be honouring the referendum.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
At a price of ignoring the democratic mandate of 17.5 million Brits?
Personally I’d rather not see Nigel Farage holding the balance of power in the next Parliament.
They've voted for a fantasy. Thats like saying "the British peope voted for the moon on a stick and by golly that's what they have to have because Democracy". But just you can't have the moon on a stick you cant have either the fantasy island deal in our interest only or have hard Brexit WTO where we waive WTO rules only for Europe work either.
But in reality the fantasy is what people like you insist they voted for. "Should Britain uring the referendum.
EU freedom of movement rules do not mandate migrants to have a job or be removed. They give migrants freedom of movement for 3 months and they may not even have a job offer in those 3 months, before they must get a job.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
Don’t understand this argument at all about transitional controls. They would have long since expired by 2016.
. Thus Germany has had no real issue with Eastern European migration unlike the UK,
The EU is a massive bureaucracy, and this is one of my reasons for voting Leave. We have our own incompetent bureaucrats, we don't need to import them to govern us.
It moves slowly, if at all. The more powerful nations dominate, the smaller nations will stay as long as they see economic advantage. Trying to negotiate with them is a recipe for frustration. Think of the US having to negotiate with all fifty odd states needing to accept it.
The national governments can shift things but they change on a regular basis. The only viable future is one country of Europe, but progress to that eventual aim is glacial especially when you have to lie about it.
If you don't like the eventual destination, best leave the ship to wallow and take to the lifeboats in case it settles on the sandbank.
I’m quite aware that English is not the national language of Romania and Poland thank you. But English is easily the most popular 2nd language in these counties, especially amongst the under 40s. If you are looking to move abroad for work you are likely to choose somewhere where you speak the language.
I just don’t think these transitional controls would have had anywhere near the effect you think they would have - at best they would have delayed the “problem” of the surge in immigration to 2011 instead of 2004. It would still have been presented as an issue in the referendum.
The whole point of transition controls is they control who you let into the country regardless of the demand from Eastern European countries rather than the free movement free for all Blair effectively allowed in 2004.
You are wrong, the lack of transition controls on Eastern European migration from 2004 was the key reason Leave got over 50%, with them Leave would have been closer to 40 than 50% if their had been as much demand for an EU referendum at all.
There would have been no surge in 2011 as there was not in Germany as Eastern European nations would have been in the EU for 7 years already and their migration patterns established and controlled.
As I keep pointing out, your use of Germany as a comparator is specious. Completely different lanagauge, culture and - most importantly of all - economy.
Germany is the biggest economy in Europe we are second biggest, none of which in any way affects the key point we should have imposed transition controls as Germany did in 2004 on migration from the new accession countries
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
Your snide retort assumes that the Irish position is "best for Ireland". Most people involved have known from the start that simplistic positioning will not deliver the best for either. A point you are usually keen to lay at the Brexiteers door....
Oh God, Hoey now pushing the 'wouldn't be surprised if ROI wants to join the Yookay in leaving the EU' line, though the customary Brexit red mist seemed too have descended by then.
Yep, this is the Brexiteer fantasy: the Irish leave the EU and join the UK in a Council of the Isles, or something similar. Coincidentally, the Council will have its HQ in London and the British monarch will be at its head. That idea should go down a treat in Dublin!!!
I do agree with you on this. No matter how bad the EU gets with regard to Ireland they will never (with due apologies and caveats for using that word) choose to leave in favour of a closer relationship with the UK. They would rightly fear being overwhelmed in such a bilateral partnership.
It was working on solutions with the Irish - but Varadkar cancelled it......
He's taking back control and putting borders ahead of economics, who does he think he is? Michael Gove?
it's certainly novel
for the best part of the last 100 years the Irish govt has sought to get rid of the border
Vote DUP, vote Varadkar
The border has gone to all intents and purposes. Brexit reintroduces it.
usual view of the Brexit prism
it's Varadkar insisting the border goes back
as Ive said before stirring up the Nordies is a really stupid idea
So, how do you avoid a border when the UK is leaving the Customs Union and Single Market? Just saying there will not be one really doesn't cut the mustard. You have to explain how.
@Sandpit So in short your questions are " Why is the Irish government acting in it's own long term interests rather than making Brexit easier for the British government ? " and " Why are the Irish using their moment of maximum leverage in the talks structure to pursue those self interests rather than ballsing up like we are ? ".
I confess I'm stumped on both counts.
No, my question is why are the Irish government not working to effect a mutually beneficial “win-win” outcome to the trade talks, that both protects their largest trade routes and negates the need to do anything with the border?
The "win-win" outcome is cancelling Brexit.
Cancelling Brexit a win-win? Only if you want to unleash a shit-storm from the voters, who will (rightly) assume that our current crop of politicians are not up to the job of following one instruction: get us out of the EU that these politicians so carefully tried to enmesh us within such that Brexit was impossible.
I really don't think that you would like the look of a post Brexit-walkaway House of Commons, following the election that would occur in short order and where one issue would dominate the campaign.
The "win-win' referred specifically to the Irish border issue. I don't doubt there would be problems on the mainland if Brexit were cancelled.
It wouldn't be Brexit cancelled. It would be Brexit delayed. And Brexit regardless. Those who DO end up taking us out won't give a fig for what Ireland wants. Nor Brussels.
We had an ongoing dialogue with Ireland between grown-ups, trying to resolve what all the grown-ups know to be a very knotty issue. Then Ireland goes and gets Kevin the Teenager....
Yep, it is outrageous that the Irish dare do what they feel is best for Ireland and refuse to take the words of Boris Johnson, David Davis, Liam Fox et al at face value.
Your snide retort assumes that the Irish position is "best for Ireland". Most people involved have known from the start that simplistic positioning will not deliver the best for either. A point you are usually keen to lay at the Brexiteers door....
It's just a matter of fact that the claims made by the likes of Johnson, Fox and Davis about Brexit have turned out to be almost entirely wrong. It is not unreasonable for the Irish to factor that into their positioning.
It was working on solutions with the Irish - but Varadkar cancelled it......
He's taking back control and putting borders ahead of economics, who does he think he is? Michael Gove?
it's certainly novel
for the best part of the last 100 years the Irish govt has sought to get rid of the border
Vote DUP, vote Varadkar
The border has gone to all intents and purposes. Brexit reintroduces it.
usual view of the Brexit prism
it's Varadkar insisting the border goes back
as Ive said before stirring up the Nordies is a really stupid idea
So, how do you avoid a border when the UK is leaving the Customs Union and Single Market? Just saying there will not be one really doesn't cut the mustard. You have to explain how.
And it remains shocking that none of the leading Leavers were forced to spell out how they intended to resolve problems like this before the vote.
Mr. B2, both sides of the campaign were absolutely atrocious. It's an interesting counterfactual to consider, how things would have gone if both campaigns had been intelligent rather than bullshit.
I have heard this a couple of times, do you have a link to more info? It's genuinely news to me so I'd be interested to learn more as I'm surprised the UK government has failed to make this clear.
Posted upthread.
Ruth Dudley Edwards also remarked on this in the FT a couple of days ago.
The previous Taoiseach, the 66-year-old Enda Kenny, was less clever and articulate than his successor, but he was experienced and wily, as well as accommodating, and was given to defusing rather than exacerbating tension. With Anglo-Irish relations better than they had ever been, Brexit came as a shock to the Irish government, but Mr Kenny set out to be constructive by initiating work on electronic border technology that Mr Varadkar then cancelled.
Mr Varadkar seems not to have done much homework on either Northern Ireland or Brexit, and he is lumbered with a foreign minister, Simon Coveney, who lost to him in the election for the leadership of the Fine Gael party, which governs with the aid of a handful of independents and a confidence-and-supply arrangement with Fianna Fáil.
For reasons to do with Ireland’s complex electoral system of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies, Mr Coveney keeps a nervous eye on the competition and courts the green vote, which has caused him to push a nationalist agenda and make bellicose statements about Brexit that Mr Varadkar began to echo.
That does not look like evidence the Irish were working with the British on a solution. It looks like a writer claiming a politician she does not like did something she did not like. There must be more than that.
Dublin had seemed open to this idea. Former taoiseach Enda Kenny indulged the concept and the Revenue Commissioners had revealed preliminary work on the project, for both soft and hard Brexits. In a worst-case scenario, Ireland’s top customs official said documents would need to be checked for between 6%-8% of cross-border freight but only a “tiny number” of lorries would be physically inspected, as everything else could be done electronically or via glorified toll booths.
Oh God, Hoey now pushing the 'wouldn't be surprised if ROI wants to join the Yookay in leaving the EU' line, though the customary Brexiteer red mist seemed to have descended by then.
Oh God, Hoey now pushing the 'wouldn't be surprised if ROI wants to join the Yookay in leaving the EU' line, though the customary Brexiteer red mist seemed to have descended by then.
Mr. B2, both sides of the campaign were absolutely atrocious. It's an interesting counterfactual to consider, how things would have gone if both campaigns had been intelligent rather than bullshit.
Both sides of the campaign continue to be atrocious
It's just a matter of fact that the claims made by the likes of Johnson, Fox and Davis about Brexit have turned out to be almost entirely wrong. It is not unreasonable for the Irish to factor that into their positioning.
I still don't see how cutting off your nose to spite Johnson, Fox and Davies is in anyone's interest. The only people who can win from that are Johnson, Fox and Davies, who can turn round and say "See, we told you. The EU in a nutshell. No interest in finding solutions...."
The Irish border needs creative thinking for a positive resolution. It's the Irish that have closed that down. Let's hope wiser counsel prevails and they return to the task, now out of the glare of the spotlight.
It was working on solutions with the Irish - but Varadkar cancelled it......
I have heard this a couple of times, do you have a link to more info? It's genuinely news to me so I'd be interested to learn more as I'm surprised the UK government has failed to make this clear.
F1: Alonso down to the perhaps still overpriced odds of 13 on Betfair Sportsbook. If you backed at the 20 or so I mentioned on the Exchange, should soon be hedgeable if you want to go for safety first. The back value there is currently 12.5.
If the Renault engine is good enough, which is a big if, he should be around 4 or 5. If it isn't, he has no chance.
It was working on solutions with the Irish - but Varadkar cancelled it......
He's taking back control and putting borders ahead of economics, who does he think he is? Michael Gove?
it's certainly novel
for the best part of the last 100 years the Irish govt has sought to get rid of the border
Vote DUP, vote Varadkar
The border has gone to all intents and purposes. Brexit reintroduces it.
usual view of the Brexit prism
it's Varadkar insisting the border goes back
as Ive said before stirring up the Nordies is a really stupid idea
So, how do you avoid a border when the UK is leaving the Customs Union and Single Market? Just saying there will not be one really doesn't cut the mustard. You have to explain how.
you do what was suggested
an electronic border for goods and a migration border between Ireland and Britain
Comments
Under such circumstances the reasonable British response should be to say that the Irish can argue it with the EU but we are going for the sort of border that suits up. Who knows, the way Irish politics is going we may well be back with a more sensible government in Dublin in the new year.
There is nothing remotely anarchic about that, indeed the working man would see leaving free movement in place as a betrayal of their Leave vote.
Good luck trying to get any kind of meaningful post-Brexit US support for the UK if we are seen to have bullied Ireland over the border. The Irish American lobby is kind of strong.
I recall being asked questions at the US border last time I travelled through. In fact purely by chance I was stopped and questioned close to the Canadian border last time I was there as I was driving in Upper New York State.
Obviously a physical border where pople are stopped and can be turned back is an important part of a sovereign state's right of self-determination and self control.
I don't see what the argument is about. Give the electors what they voted for for - borders which we can control. Doesn't matter what the Irish think.
Of course had Blair actually imposed the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries most EU nations imposed in 2004 most of the concerns about free movement would have been avoided. So it is Blair's fault not May's free movement has been such an issue of concern.
I think "impossible" rather overstates the case.
There are a limited number of possible trade/customs positions, and talking about different contingencies is not beyond the wit of even our negotiators.
Though, of course, the Irish stance doesn't make progress particularly easy.
President Trump is half Scottish not half Irish and supported Brexit even before the UK voted for it.
We can threaten to do trade deals now with the rest of the world. If the EU fine us, so what? Tell them where to go. France would. No point being nice to them on the off-chance they'll look kindly on us - they won't. We're not returning in the near future, so let's look after number one.
If Varadkar can see all that and is trying to prevent it good luck to him. And if we're stupid enough to drive NI off a cliff can we blame Irish nationalists for preparing to harvest what we sow ?
Any land border between the two countries will be purely a goods border with no passport checks required.
We are also not heading for any border poll as long as the DUP wins most seats at Stormont in Northern Ireland (assuming it eventually resumes its functions).
I’m quite aware that English is not the national language of Romania and Poland thank you. But English is easily the most popular 2nd language in these counties, especially amongst the under 40s. If you are looking to move abroad for work you are likely to choose somewhere where you speak the language.
I just don’t think these transitional controls would have had anywhere near the effect you think they would have - at best they would have delayed the “problem” of the surge in immigration to 2011 instead of 2004. It would still have been presented as an issue in the referendum.
"Who is going to do a trade deal with the UK until our relationship with the EU is finalised?"
We can start negotiating now. It will save time later and it's a reminder to the EU that they aren't the only game in town. There's no point lying down if the EU want to be awkward. That's the way the encourage them.
I know a few Euro-fanatics want us to take a beating just to make a point, but come on ...You're not amongst them.
The tragedy of Jo Cox might have caused a late swing of 2% from Leave to Remain, as Matthew Goodwin has argued, and would otherwise have won 54/46.
http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/eservices/overview-sommaire-eng.html
First the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney, said that no border is acceptable. Another government spokesman said that no technological solutions could make a border acceptable. Then in Brussels last week, Leo Varadkar said that the border was Britain’s not Ireland’s problem and that Irish work on technological solutions would cease. Most strikingly he also said that the border should be moved to the Irish Sea.
https://policyexchange.org.uk/irish-border-and-brexit/
You are wrong, the lack of transition controls on Eastern European migration from 2004 was the key reason Leave got over 50%, with them Leave would have been closer to 40 than 50% if their had been as much demand for an EU referendum at all.
There would have been no surge in 2011 as there was not in Germany as Eastern European nations would have been in the EU for 7 years already and their migration patterns established and controlled.
Do the EU want a deal?
Even if they do, which I doubt, it would only take one veto. The EU is obdurate and has vast problems with producing any consensus, and has no particular interest in looking for a consensus. Democracy it aint.
"While some form of common travel area may exist post-Brexit, a completely open border is not possible from a customs perspective...It is probably somewhat naive to believe that a new and entirely unique arrangement can be negotiated and applied to the EI/UK land frontier."
It then describes the border posts that would have to be set up.
Apparently the ploughs for the national ploughing competition would need temporary import licences.
The politics of the report being leaked was the opposition accusing Fine Gael of not being open about the border and selling Ireland out.
https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1008/910662-brexit-customs/
They want either no border, or an Irish sea border that eventually leads to unification. And the reality from yesterdays poll is that a plurality of NI voters agree with that.
for the best part of the last 100 years the Irish govt has sought to get rid of the border
Vote DUP, vote Varadkar
Ruth Dudley Edwards also remarked on this in the FT a couple of days ago.
The previous Taoiseach, the 66-year-old Enda Kenny, was less clever and articulate than his successor, but he was experienced and wily, as well as accommodating, and was given to defusing rather than exacerbating tension. With Anglo-Irish relations better than they had ever been, Brexit came as a shock to the Irish government, but Mr Kenny set out to be constructive by initiating work on electronic border technology that Mr Varadkar then cancelled.
Mr Varadkar seems not to have done much homework on either Northern Ireland or Brexit, and he is lumbered with a foreign minister, Simon Coveney, who lost to him in the election for the leadership of the Fine Gael party, which governs with the aid of a handful of independents and a confidence-and-supply arrangement with Fianna Fáil.
For reasons to do with Ireland’s complex electoral system of proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies, Mr Coveney keeps a nervous eye on the competition and courts the green vote, which has caused him to push a nationalist agenda and make bellicose statements about Brexit that Mr Varadkar began to echo.
https://www.ft.com/content/eabdd85c-d12b-11e7-b781-794ce08b24dc
'Who would have thought Theresa May is a bigger threat to peace in Northern Ireland than Jeremy Corbyn'
https://twitter.com/DouglasCarswell/status/935072339561238528?s=17
Can't we just try and focus on controlling immigration and regaining sovereignty? That is what people voted for. The obsession with trade has led to a dangerous diplomatic row with Ireland and has delayed moving Brexit forward. As far as I can see, it would be solved by staying in the customs union.
Will you only accept evidence from writers who do like Varadkar?
who would have thought a gay indian would have the paddies dusting down the semtex ?
Dublin had seemed open to this idea. Former taoiseach Enda Kenny indulged the concept and the Revenue Commissioners had revealed preliminary work on the project, for both soft and hard Brexits. In a worst-case scenario, Ireland’s top customs official said documents would need to be checked for between 6%-8% of cross-border freight but only a “tiny number” of lorries would be physically inspected, as everything else could be done electronically or via glorified toll booths.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-eu-already-has-the-technology-to-enforce-an-electronic-border-h80nkfr22
usual view of the Brexit prism
it's Varadkar insisting the border goes back
as Ive said before stirring up the Nordies is a really stupid idea
The EU is a massive bureaucracy, and this is one of my reasons for voting Leave. We have our own incompetent bureaucrats, we don't need to import them to govern us.
It moves slowly, if at all. The more powerful nations dominate, the smaller nations will stay as long as they see economic advantage. Trying to negotiate with them is a recipe for frustration. Think of the US having to negotiate with all fifty odd states needing to accept it.
The national governments can shift things but they change on a regular basis. The only viable future is one country of Europe, but progress to that eventual aim is glacial especially when you have to lie about it.
If you don't like the eventual destination, best leave the ship to wallow and take to the lifeboats in case it settles on the sandbank.
Just proves Dave was right, Brexit would undo the peace we've all known,
gay, foreign, posh he's your ideal of a brexiter's bugbear
he could fund a bus by himself
Roger Hollis, Arthur Wynn, Seumas Milne, now Boris and Gove, why does Oxford University produce so many pro Russian traitors?
The Irish border needs creative thinking for a positive resolution. It's the Irish that have closed that down. Let's hope wiser counsel prevails and they return to the task, now out of the glare of the spotlight.
The Irish have to decide whether to make the best of a bad job. At the moment they are holding out for something better.
If the Renault engine is good enough, which is a big if, he should be around 4 or 5. If it isn't, he has no chance.
I guess that makes TSE a pound shop Douglas Carswell?
an electronic border for goods and a migration border between Ireland and Britain
most of the NI population will support this
https://sluggerotoole.com/2017/11/26/exclusive-poll-unionist-supporters-content-with-east-west-post-brexit-border-controls/