You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
That's a chilling post, Charles.
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
What are the proposed pension liabilities as a percentage of what we currently pay? Will we get some back in the taxes that the UK pensioners pay, or are they tax-free?
In the end, it is either No Deal, or the EU Deal. On current news, it looks like the latter. They seem to have had their way on every issue. It doesn't bode well for our negotiators on the EU27 trade deal, or on any other trade deals. Freedom of Movement will be the ultimate concession, soft Brexit wrapped up in Hard wrapping paper, and garnished with a British Sausage.
If only we were members of a continent wide union that had such negotiating power...
What are the proposed pension liabilities as a percentage of what we currently pay? Will we get some back in the taxes that the UK pensioners pay, or are they tax-free?
That’s a good question about UK income tax payable on EU pensions. EU salaries pay their own income tax (at a derisory rate) back to the EU and are exempt from local income taxes.
We should make sure that we get 40% of Kinnock’s and Mandleson’s pensions back!
"He found that by entering the username "root", leaving the password field blank, and hitting "enter" a few times, he would be granted unrestricted access to the target machine."
Easy: don't use Apple. You're paying a premium for something that's frequently no better than the competition, and getting locked into a waled garden as well.
More like you are paying an Apple premium for something that probably is better than the competition. The number of professionals using Macbooks is very high, based on my observations of London coffee shops, and they can't all be wrong. Lenovo (formerly IBM) Thinkpads are probably next in.
In a corporate environment when you either get an Apple Mac or a cheap as chips Windows laptop with a rubbish screen and made of plastic.
No brainer, Apple every time.
Ah, someone else's money.
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
I'm amazed by how much money companies throw away buying Apple kit.
Let me take this down to the basics: what matters about tech is what it allows you to do. A premium is only worth it if it allows you to perform your tasks that much more efficiently. There are a fair few cases (or were) where Apple kit allows you to work better, but most of the time it is just a PITA.
Q1: Mr Speaker, the salacious rumours scurry around Whitehall. Cabinets, laptops and servers are searched and examined. Emails are scoured over for the revealing files.
But perhaps the Honourable Gentlement knows the answer.
Where are those Brexit Impact Assessments?
Q2: After the PM's humiliating acceptance of a 50bn Brexit bill, has she fled to Jordan? Isn't she a picture of embarassment?
I ask the Deputy Prime Minister since he is the expert on embarassing pictures...
Others will do better I am sure
Jezza will go with austerity and the downbeat economic projections in last weeks budget.
Tornberry may well be wittier if she gets the gig.
So, in theory, a simple 1% annual tax on the value of all homes would eliminate the deficit. A 25% one-off charge on all homeowners would pay off the entire national debt.
1% PA might be reasonable (IT'd lower my current house tax compared to council). But 25%... Good Lord - noone in my small town/village has £25 -> £75,000 free !
So, in theory, a simple 1% annual tax on the value of all homes would eliminate the deficit. A 25% one-off charge on all homeowners would pay off the entire national debt.
You don’t seem to like anyone who owns a home?
If the 1% tax replaced council tax it wouldn’t change much for most and would act as a useful check on house price inflation
It would also eliminate stamp duty and make houses cheaper. I've been a fan for a while (even though it would force me to sell my house)
If you would have to sell your house isn't that quite a good clue that everyone else would? Either that or your house price:income ratio is exceptionally high, which is unlikely assuming you have a job (because the average is skewed, for all levels of house price, by people who don't). What effect do you think this would have on house prices, mortgagees and the economy in general?
Q1: Mr Speaker, the salacious rumours scurry around Whitehall. Cabinets, laptops and servers are searched and examined. Emails are scoured over for the revealing files.
But perhaps the Honourable Gentlement knows the answer.
Where are those Brexit Impact Assessments?
Q2: After the PM's humiliating acceptance of a 50bn Brexit bill, has she fled to Jordan? Isn't she a picture of embarassment?
I ask the Deputy Prime Minister since he is the expert on embarassing pictures...
Others will do better I am sure
Jezza will go with austerity and the downbeat economic projections in last weeks budget.
Tornberry may well be wittier if she gets the gig.
It is Lady Nugee asking the questions.
'Does the right honourable gentleman know the difference between a hand and a tablecloth?'
"He found that by entering the username "root", leaving the password field blank, and hitting "enter" a few times, he would be granted unrestricted access to the target machine."
Easy: don't use Apple. You're paying a premium for something that's frequently no better than the competition, and getting locked into a waled garden as well.
More like you are paying an Apple premium for something that probably is better than the competition. The number of professionals using Macbooks is very high, based on my observations of London coffee shops, and they can't all be wrong. Lenovo (formerly IBM) Thinkpads are probably next in.
In a corporate environment when you either get an Apple Mac or a cheap as chips Windows laptop with a rubbish screen and made of plastic.
No brainer, Apple every time.
Ah, someone else's money.
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
I'm amazed by how much money companies throw away buying Apple kit.
Let me take this down to the basics: what matters about tech is what it allows you to do. A premium is only worth it if it allows you to perform your tasks that much more efficiently. There are a fair few cases (or were) where Apple kit allows you to work better, but most of the time it is just a PITA.
Employing expensive staff and then tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine is a false economy. When the only choice is between a cheap laptop and a mac, you have to choose the latter.
If Time Magazine picks a person I would go for Emmanuel Macron. He managed to beat both the main party candidates to become the youngest President of France and have liberals worldwide a much needes boost after Brexit and Trump. With Merkel and May now relatively weak he is also effectively the most powerful man in Europe at the moment.
Though if they go for a group or collective it is hard to see past #MeToo
"He found that by entering the username "root", leaving the password field blank, and hitting "enter" a few times, he would be granted unrestricted access to the target machine."
Easy: don't use Apple. You're paying a premium for something that's frequently no better than the competition, and getting locked into a waled garden as well.
More like you are paying an Apple premium for something that probably is better than the competition. The number of professionals using Macbooks is very high, based on my observations of London coffee shops, and they can't all be wrong. Lenovo (formerly IBM) Thinkpads are probably next in.
In a corporate environment when you either get an Apple Mac or a cheap as chips Windows laptop with a rubbish screen and made of plastic.
No brainer, Apple every time.
Ah, someone else's money.
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
I'm amazed by how much money companies throw away buying Apple kit.
Let me take this down to the basics: what matters about tech is what it allows you to do. A premium is only worth it if it allows you to perform your tasks that much more efficiently. There are a fair few cases (or were) where Apple kit allows you to work better, but most of the time it is just a PITA.
Sadly a lot of companies take that attitude though. The choice is between a $500 Windows box or a $1000 Mac.
If speccing a machine for a power user (developer, designer etc) or senior manager I always speak to them and find out what they want. Companies are fools if their trying to save a few hundred bucks on hardware results in their expensive new hire not being as productive as they otherwise could be. It’s amazing the difference a second screen or an upgraded graphics card can make.
In the end, it is either No Deal, or the EU Deal. On current news, it looks like the latter. They seem to have had their way on every issue. It doesn't bode well for our negotiators on the EU27 trade deal, or on any other trade deals. Freedom of Movement will be the ultimate concession, soft Brexit wrapped up in Hard wrapping paper, and garnished with a British Sausage.
If only we were members of a continent wide union that had such negotiating power...
No freedom of movement will not be a concession, that would require staying in the single market.
The other concessions are to get a FTA as we are leaving the single market
Are you serious? It will be 80% of the population unhappy. Nobody is going to support this unless she can demonstrate that she has received something in return.
Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. So there will be a trade off.
No, the payment will become binding in the article 50 treaty, but the delivery of the FTA will not be binding (it is not possible for the EU to agree an FTA in this treaty).
If the UK had an agreement that it would be linked, they would be busy leaking it. The entire basis of the EUs negotiation has been to separate the issues so that we are fully committed to the Brexit bill regardless of the outcome.
"the payment will become binding in the article 50 treaty"
That doesn't even make sense.
Let me explain. The UK and the EU will enter into an article 50 treaty. This will be an international treaty and thus binding on the UK and enforceable in UK Courts.
The EU cannot, by law, include an FTA in the article 50 treaty. It will have to be agreed and ratified afterwards. They can include a 'heads of agreement' but it cannot bind the EU because the EU do not have the legal power to enter into an FTA in this way. Barnier has been clear about this.
The reason for all of this charade is that the EU have demanded that payment of the Brexit Bill has to be unconditional. The UK will agree to pay it in the article 50 treaty and that is the end of the story. The EU will not, on the other hand, be bound to deliver the FTA. If the FTA was not ratified, the UK would have no grounds for refusing to pay the Brexit bill UNLESS it said so in the treaty. It will not - this link has been refused by the EU and the UK appears to have capitulated.
Once the treaty is signed, the EU can spend the next five years backtracking and picking holes in the FTA and there is nothing that the UK can do about it.
Can we walk away before the article 50 treaty is signed? In theory yes, but in practice the EU plan will be to play for time and then at the cliff edge force us to accept a crap non-binding FTA heads of agreement because the alternative is hard Brexit with no deal and no time to prepare.
It was ESSENTIAL that the UK made the EU compromise on the linkage as it was the only leverage that we had. We have been sold out. We would be much better walking away now than taking this deal.
No we won't a FTA is what most people want and particularly British manufacturing exporters
I would give it to twitter for reducing the political classes and everybody else, but esp the POTUS, to complete abject infantile wankerdom and probably facilitating ww3.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
There is something a bit weird about this case. Anyone who has lived continuously in the UK for 20 years, whether lawfully or not, is entitled to indefinite leave to remain on application. The relevant regulation is paragraph 277ADE(1) (iii) of the Immigration rules. She clearly has not made such an application but can now do so.
From speaking to friends doing immigration work the usual problem is vouching the presence but if she has NI records as claimed by the Guardian that should not be a problem.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
There is something a bit weird about this case. Anyone who has lived continuously in the UK for 20 years, whether lawfully or not, is entitled to indefinite leave to remain on application. The relevant regulation is paragraph 277ADE(1) (iii) of the Immigration rules. She clearly has not made such an application but can now do so.
You never get the full story at first - remember the British Singaporean grandmother who had spent all her married life a couple of years in Britain?
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
That's a chilling post, Charles.
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
I suppose there could be school records somewhere.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
That's a chilling post, Charles.
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
Surely the point is we have to have rules equally applied to decide whether someone is a citizen ( or has other rights to stay)?
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
There is something a bit weird about this case. Anyone who has lived continuously in the UK for 20 years, whether lawfully or not, is entitled to indefinite leave to remain on application. The relevant regulation is paragraph 277ADE(1) (iii) of the Immigration rules. She clearly has not made such an application but can now do so.
You never get the full story at first - remember the British Singaporean grandmother who had spent all her married life a couple of years in Britain?
Yes but this woman is said not to have a passport which would have made trips abroad somewhat tricky. The point is any 20 years would do provided its continuous. Why they are trying to find school records is beyond me.
So, in theory, a simple 1% annual tax on the value of all homes would eliminate the deficit. A 25% one-off charge on all homeowners would pay off the entire national debt.
You don’t seem to like anyone who owns a home?
If the 1% tax replaced council tax it wouldn’t change much for most and would act as a useful check on house price inflation
It would also eliminate stamp duty and make houses cheaper. I've been a fan for a while (even though it would force me to sell my house)
Thats a fecking crazy idea. Id have to pay more than 5 figures a year to the fecking govt. No thank you. I'd have to sell too. Its an unworkable tax, loads of large houses would either remain empty or be knocked down .. bonkers
It works well in the US. Large houses would fall in price until they found a buyer. You Replace council tax, stamp duty, etc
I am surprised Theresa May is not on the list for undertaking to pay the biggest ever reparations by a sovereign state.
Didn’t want to be the guy to bring it back to Brexit - but since you have...
I am fascinated to see how leavers react.
Some thought this likely I accept but I think many really thought, including a few on this site, we wouldn’t pay anything/owe anything... and the public. Will they just shrug and say it’s billions either way?
Labour are not well placed to take advantage (they would surely do the same) - but I suspect when they are criticised for overspending - they will fall back on a line of “- 50bn for Brexit and you’re lecturing us on the magic money tree!”
Also - a Priti Patel led rebellion? I doubt she has the support, but she will look stupid if she doesn’t criticise given her recent comments?
Theresa May has less guts than Guy Fawkes after his execution. I see she is buggering off to Jordan today leaving Damian Green to take the flak at PMQs while he is under a cloud about allegations of potentially using extreme pornography.
And yet some folks still think Damien Green is going to resign....
@BethRigby: This v interesting from Remainer MP. Says colleagues “won’t want to rock the boat for fear of how unstable it is. But it’s a serious blow to DD’s credibility and respect” #Brexitbill
Time should find and reward Trumps most effective critic. John McCain? Failing that Obama.
Time is supposed to reward people who made the biggest difference to the world that year, past winners have included Pope Francis, American Presidents, Merkel, Hitler and Stalin, Mark Zuckerberg, Deng Xiaoping, Winston Churchill etc. Making John McCain winner because he took a few potshots at Trump is absurd. Obama won it in 2008 anyway (as did Trump last year). It is hard to see past Macron for me and of course he presented himself as the leader of the anti Trump movement in the West before building a working relationship with the President later on.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
That's a chilling post, Charles.
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
Surely the point is we have to have rules equally applied to decide whether someone is a citizen ( or has other rights to stay)?
The point is that she is not and never has been a citizen. But she does have the right to apply for indefinite leave to remain. Or even citizenship in due course.
"He found that by entering the username "root", leaving the password field blank, and hitting "enter" a few times, he would be granted unrestricted access to the target machine."
Easy: don't use Apple. You're paying a premium for something that's frequently no better than the competition, and getting locked into a waled garden as well.
More like you are paying an Apple premium for something that probably is better than the competition. The number of professionals using Macbooks is very high, based on my observations of London coffee shops, and they can't all be wrong. Lenovo (formerly IBM) Thinkpads are probably next in.
In a corporate environment when you either get an Apple Mac or a cheap as chips Windows laptop with a rubbish screen and made of plastic.
No brainer, Apple every time.
Ah, someone else's money.
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
I'm amazed by how much money companies throw away buying Apple kit.
Let me take this down to the basics: what matters about tech is what it allows you to do. A premium is only worth it if it allows you to perform your tasks that much more efficiently. There are a fair few cases (or were) where Apple kit allows you to work better, but most of the time it is just a PITA.
Employing expensive staff and then tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine is a false economy. When the only choice is between a cheap laptop and a mac, you have to choose the latter.
"tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine"
The point is that it should not be a choice between a cheap laptop and a mac, but instead have a budget for a machine and pick the one that allows you to do the job best (taking into account the IT department's capabilities as well - Apples and PCs sometimes don't get on, mainly thanks to Apple).
If your company pays more for Macs and less for PCs, I'd strongly suggest the company's IT department (or more) is poorly run.
@BethRigby: This v interesting from Remainer MP. Says colleagues “won’t want to rock the boat for fear of how unstable it is. But it’s a serious blow to DD’s credibility and respect” #Brexitbill
Wait, David Davis had credibility and respect? #Shocked
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
No. Basically everything works now, and if a rogue programmer ported windows 10 to apple and installed it on your machine but just left a couple of appley bits in the UI, you wouldn't notice. It's like buying a Golf vs an equivalent spec Astra, they are both superb bits of engineering, and the reason to go for the Golf is purely that you don't have to drive around with a bag over your head so no one recognises you.
@BethRigby: This v interesting from Remainer MP. Says colleagues “won’t want to rock the boat for fear of how unstable it is. But it’s a serious blow to DD’s credibility and respect” #Brexitbill
Very brave these MPs now - they all seem to talk to Beth Rigby, but never on the record.
Q1: Mr Speaker, the salacious rumours scurry around Whitehall. Cabinets, laptops and servers are searched and examined. Emails are scoured over for the revealing files.
But perhaps the Honourable Gentlement knows the answer.
Where are those Brexit Impact Assessments?
Q2: After the PM's humiliating acceptance of a 50bn Brexit bill, has she fled to Jordan? Isn't she a picture of embarassment?
I ask the Deputy Prime Minister since he is the expert on embarassing pictures...
Others will do better I am sure
Jezza will go with austerity and the downbeat economic projections in last weeks budget.
Tornberry may well be wittier if she gets the gig.
It is Lady Nugee asking the questions.
'Does the right honourable gentleman know the difference between a hand and a tablecloth?'
Maybe, with all the jingoism about the Royal Wedding, she will just wrap herself in the flag?
@BethRigby: This v interesting from Remainer MP. Says colleagues “won’t want to rock the boat for fear of how unstable it is. But it’s a serious blow to DD’s credibility and respect” #Brexitbill
I see Scott is on overtime mode in his search for negatives about the hints of a deal - I'd seriously fear for his health if this really is a breakthrough.
Easy: don't use Apple. You're paying a premium for something that's frequently no better than the competition, and getting locked into a waled garden as well.
More like you are paying an Apple premium for something that probably is better than the competition. The number of professionals using Macbooks is very high, based on my observations of London coffee shops, and they can't all be wrong. Lenovo (formerly IBM) Thinkpads are probably next in.
In a corporate environment when you either get an Apple Mac or a cheap as chips Windows laptop with a rubbish screen and made of plastic.
No brainer, Apple every time.
Ah, someone else's money.
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
I'm amazed by how much money companies throw away buying Apple kit.
Let me take this down to the basics: what matters about tech is what it allows you to do. A premium is only worth it if it allows you to perform your tasks that much more efficiently. There are a fair few cases (or were) where Apple kit allows you to work better, but most of the time it is just a PITA.
Employing expensive staff and then tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine is a false economy. When the only choice is between a cheap laptop and a mac, you have to choose the latter.
"tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine"
The point is that it should not be a choice between a cheap laptop and a mac, but instead have a budget for a machine and pick the one that allows you to do the job best (taking into account the IT department's capabilities as well - Apples and PCs sometimes don't get on, mainly thanks to Apple).
If your company pays more for Macs and less for PCs, I'd strongly suggest the company's IT department (or more) is poorly run.
It’s usually the bean counters making stupid decisions like that though. They see that laptops are $300 in random big box store in the mall, and don’t understand why they should pay any more than that for office laptops. The IT mgr is the one pulling his hair out at having to support these cheap pieces of crap.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
There is something a bit weird about this case. Anyone who has lived continuously in the UK for 20 years, whether lawfully or not, is entitled to indefinite leave to remain on application. The relevant regulation is paragraph 277ADE(1) (iii) of the Immigration rules. She clearly has not made such an application but can now do so.
You never get the full story at first - remember the British Singaporean grandmother who had spent all her married life a couple of years in Britain?
Yes but this woman is said not to have a passport which would have made trips abroad somewhat tricky. The point is any 20 years would do provided its continuous. Why they are trying to find school records is beyond me.
It does appear she's been poorly advised (if at all...)
So, in theory, a simple 1% annual tax on the value of all homes would eliminate the deficit. A 25% one-off charge on all homeowners would pay off the entire national debt.
You don’t seem to like anyone who owns a home?
If the 1% tax replaced council tax it wouldn’t change much for most and would act as a useful check on house price inflation
It would also eliminate stamp duty and make houses cheaper. I've been a fan for a while (even though it would force me to sell my house)
Thats a fecking crazy idea. Id have to pay more than 5 figures a year to the fecking govt. No thank you. I'd have to sell too. Its an unworkable tax, loads of large houses would either remain empty or be knocked down .. bonkers
I have no philosophical problem with paying more tax as long as I believe it'll be well spent. The country's economic model could be altered to make people pay more, but also benefit from that spending.
However that caveat is the killer. I *may* be able to be persuaded that a Conservative government might introduce such a tax and spend well. But a Corbynite one? No way.
Others may differ, but I'm far from the only person who doesn't instinctively dislike taxes, but doesn't trust the government to spend it wisely.
@mrjamesob: We’re paying tens of billions of pounds to leave the world’s largest free trade area while surrendering all of our ability to define its rights & regulations. All so that we can hopefully start negotiating an inferior arrangement with the world’s largest free trade area.
@BethRigby: This v interesting from Remainer MP. Says colleagues “won’t want to rock the boat for fear of how unstable it is. But it’s a serious blow to DD’s credibility and respect” #Brexitbill
I see Scott is on overtime mode in his search for negatives about the hints of a deal - I'd seriously fear for his health if this really is a breakthrough.
The Remainers are going completely bonkers at Dan Hannan’s recently resurfaced article showing a positive vision for a successful Britain outside the EU. It’s literally their worst nightmare.
"He found that by entering the username "root", leaving the password field blank, and hitting "enter" a few times, he would be granted unrestricted access to the target machine."
Easy: don't use Apple. You're paying a premium for something that's frequently no better than the competition, and getting locked into a waled garden as well.
More like you are paying an Apple premium for something that probably is better than the competition. The number of professionals using Macbooks is very high, based on my observations of London coffee shops, and they can't all be wrong. Lenovo (formerly IBM) Thinkpads are probably next in.
In a corporate environment when you either get an Apple Mac or a cheap as chips Windows laptop with a rubbish screen and made of plastic.
No brainer, Apple every time.
Ah, someone else's money.
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
snip
Employing expensive staff and then tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine is a false economy. When the only choice is between a cheap laptop and a mac, you have to choose the latter.
"tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine"
The point is that it should not be a choice between a cheap laptop and a mac, but instead have a budget for a machine and pick the one that allows you to do the job best (taking into account the IT department's capabilities as well - Apples and PCs sometimes don't get on, mainly thanks to Apple).
If your company pays more for Macs and less for PCs, I'd strongly suggest the company's IT department (or more) is poorly run.
As I understand it, the bug is only in High Sierra, the new OS. Many owners of existing kit will not have upgraded yet.
I haven't. I always wait a while. Maybe its my computer science background.
So, in theory, a simple 1% annual tax on the value of all homes would eliminate the deficit. A 25% one-off charge on all homeowners would pay off the entire national debt.
You don’t seem to like anyone who owns a home?
If the 1% tax replaced council tax it wouldn’t change much for most and would act as a useful check on house price inflation
It would also eliminate stamp duty and make houses cheaper. I've been a fan for a while (even though it would force me to sell my house)
Thats a fecking crazy idea. Id have to pay more than 5 figures a year to the fecking govt. No thank you. I'd have to sell too. Its an unworkable tax, loads of large houses would either remain empty or be knocked down .. bonkers
It works well in the US. Large houses would fall in price until they found a buyer. You Replace council tax, stamp duty, etc
Be that as it may to go from where we are to there suddenly ( without other taxes dropping?) would be a huge shock to the whole economy as everything has to find a new price equilibrium. Who would buy a house at all until you knew what the new value would stabilise at?
There would have to be complex exceptions otherwise you’ll get “Jeremy Corbyn’s heartless tax throws 90 year old frail widow onto the streets because it’s not her fault she moved to the family home she shared with her war hero husband (sadly departed), in 1965 when it was only worth two groats. Oh and her disabled cat Tibbles will starve too” stories. And joking darkly aside many will be true, and I’m sure the Jezziah’s halo will slip.
The Remainers are going completely bonkers at Dan Hannan’s recently resurfaced article showing a positive vision for a successful Britain outside the EU. It’s literally their worst nightmare.
It’s usually the bean counters making stupid decisions like that though. They see that laptops are $300 in random big box store in the mall, and don’t understand why they should pay any more than that for office laptops. The IT mgr is the one pulling his hair out at having to support these cheap pieces of crap.
+1
Although in one case I know personally, it was because the head of IT was a massive Apple fan. He wanted the latest kit, and so would encourage people to get it for work, as then he'd need one to 'test' it on the network.
Shop-bought Windows PCs would be much better if they didn't come preloaded with all sorts of cr@p. In one case (HP) I couldn't actually remove it all from a new PC, and had to reinstall the OS fresh. IMO this extra unwanted crud is a significant cause of system instabilities and slow-downs on PCs: my anecdotal evidence is that PCs without it are more stable and faster.
A good IT department should be reinstalling the OS on any new kit, Windows, Apple or Linux (in the unusual case that it was supplied with Linux.)
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
And Apple machines never crash?
Nope, I tell you what I really love about Apple.
Large excel and word files don't buckle under the strain and crash like they did when we used windows machines.
Really? Because the largest excel and word files are tiny compared to run of the mill sized photos and music. The bible is 4 mb, which is about a 4 minute mp3 (and the mp3 is 10x that before compression).
"He found that by entering the username "root", leaving the password field blank, and hitting "enter" a few times, he would be granted unrestricted access to the target machine."
Easy: don't use Apple. You're paying a premium for something that's frequently no better than the competition, and getting locked into a waled garden as well.
More like you are paying an Apple premium for something that probably is better than the competition. The number of professionals using Macbooks is very high, based on my observations of London coffee shops, and they can't all be wrong. Lenovo (formerly IBM) Thinkpads are probably next in.
In a corporate environment when you either get an Apple Mac or a cheap as chips Windows laptop with a rubbish screen and made of plastic.
No brainer, Apple every time.
Ah, someone else's money.
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
snip
Employing expensive staff and then tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine is a false economy. When the only choice is between a cheap laptop and a mac, you have to choose the latter.
"tieing the up in knots on a cheap machine"
The point is that it should not be a choice between a cheap laptop and a mac, but instead have a budget for a machine and pick the one that allows you to do the job best (taking into account the IT department's capabilities as well - Apples and PCs sometimes don't get on, mainly thanks to Apple).
If your company pays more for Macs and less for PCs, I'd strongly suggest the company's IT department (or more) is poorly run.
As I understand it, the bug is only in High Sierra, the new OS. Many owners of existing kit will not have upgraded yet.
I haven't. I always wait a while. Maybe its my computer science background.
Correct, and sensible strategy. Especially with an upgrade like High Sierra that’s got some serious under the hood changes like a new file system.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
That's a chilling post, Charles.
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
Surely the point is we have to have rules equally applied to decide whether someone is a citizen ( or has other rights to stay)?
The point is that she is not and never has been a citizen. But she does have the right to apply for indefinite leave to remain. Or even citizenship in due course.
Fair enough. If she can prove she’s playing by the rules, no problem (sounds like she’ll be able to from what you are saying). If not, it’s not fair on those who do.
It’s usually the bean counters making stupid decisions like that though. They see that laptops are $300 in random big box store in the mall, and don’t understand why they should pay any more than that for office laptops. The IT mgr is the one pulling his hair out at having to support these cheap pieces of crap.
+1
Although in one case I know personally, it was because the head of IT was a massive Apple fan. He wanted the latest kit, and so would encourage people to get it for work, as then he'd need one to 'test' it on the network.
Shop-bought Windows PCs would be much better if they didn't come preloaded with all sorts of cr@p. In one case (HP) I couldn't actually remove it all from a new PC, and had to reinstall the OS fresh. IMO this extra unwanted crud is a significant cause of system instabilities and slow-downs on PCs: my anecdotal evidence is that PCs without it are more stable and faster.
A good IT department should be reinstalling the OS on any new kit, Windows, Apple or Linux (in the unusual case that it was supplied with Linux.)
Indeed a clean install is not complicated to do and anyone with half a brain in IT should be able to do it.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
That's a chilling post, Charles.
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
If she is required to provide evidence she is required to provide evidence. That's just the way that processes have to work
The Remainers are going completely bonkers at Dan Hannan’s recently resurfaced article showing a positive vision for a successful Britain outside the EU. It’s literally their worst nightmare.
Have you read it?
It's sublime
Indeed I have. Fantastic and inspiring positive vision for the future, in sharp contrast to the constant negativity from those who think we’ll become a diminishing vassal state without the overarching control of J-C Drunker and the ECJ.
As the only person to have won in consecuitive years was Richard Nixon in 1971 and 1972 (the second shares with Henry Kissinger) for Trump to win again this year should be about 50/1 rather than 3/1.
It’s usually the bean counters making stupid decisions like that though. They see that laptops are $300 in random big box store in the mall, and don’t understand why they should pay any more than that for office laptops. The IT mgr is the one pulling his hair out at having to support these cheap pieces of crap.
+1
Although in one case I know personally, it was because the head of IT was a massive Apple fan. He wanted the latest kit, and so would encourage people to get it for work, as then he'd need one to 'test' it on the network.
Shop-bought Windows PCs would be much better if they didn't come preloaded with all sorts of cr@p. In one case (HP) I couldn't actually remove it all from a new PC, and had to reinstall the OS fresh. IMO this extra unwanted crud is a significant cause of system instabilities and slow-downs on PCs: my anecdotal evidence is that PCs without it are more stable and faster.
A good IT department should be reinstalling the OS on any new kit, Windows, Apple or Linux (in the unusual case that it was supplied with Linux.)
@BethRigby: This v interesting from Remainer MP. Says colleagues “won’t want to rock the boat for fear of how unstable it is. But it’s a serious blow to DD’s credibility and respect” #Brexitbill
I see Scott is on overtime mode in his search for negatives about the hints of a deal - I'd seriously fear for his health if this really is a breakthrough.
The Remainers are going completely bonkers at Dan Hannan’s recently resurfaced article showing a positive vision for a successful Britain outside the EU. It’s literally their worst nightmare.
It’s more that the predictions it makes are completely wrong. The bit about a quick and highly advantageous trade deal is a pearler. Can’t think why he deleted it :-D
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
And Apple machines never crash?
Nope, I tell you what I really love about Apple.
Large excel and word files don't buckle under the strain and crash like they did when we used windows machines.
Really? Because the largest excel and word files are tiny compared to run of the mill sized photos and music. The bible is 4 mb, which is about a 4 minute mp3 (and the mp3 is 10x that before compression).
I regularly use excel files that has multiple tabs that use rows 1,048,576 and XFD columns.
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
And Apple machines never crash?
Nope, I tell you what I really love about Apple.
Large excel and word files don't buckle under the strain and crash like they did when we used windows machines.
Okay, you're living in a world where Apple machines never crash.
Such delusion makes serious conversations rather difficult.
To be fair, this is exactly why I use apple, too.
When I was in consulting the 50mb 80 tab models would go like a dream.
Don't know about Apple and 50mb Excel, but Apple OS no longer runs for weeks on end without a restart. Stuff starts to go wrong, for me anyway, after a two or three days. Safari in particular is a buggy piece of s/w, which I have stopped using.
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
No. Basically everything works now, and if a rogue programmer ported windows 10 to apple and installed it on your machine but just left a couple of appley bits in the UI, you wouldn't notice.
I must confess I was pleasantly surprised by Windows 10 - after horrendous bloat Microsoft finally came up with an OS that didn't consume half your hard drive and was quick & easy-ish to use. I even got it to run pretty well on a decade old notebook which had been struggling on XP.....
No we are moving onto trade talks by the end of the year, despite endless diehard Remainer whinging we were crashing out without a deal
Will the government cave on the Irish border issue, too? Let’s hope so. It’s such a shame all this wasn’t sorted months ago. The Tory loons have caused huge damage.
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
And Apple machines never crash?
Nope, I tell you what I really love about Apple.
Large excel and word files don't buckle under the strain and crash like they did when we used windows machines.
Okay, you're living in a world where Apple machines never crash.
Such delusion makes serious conversations rather difficult.
To be fair, this is exactly why I use apple, too.
When I was in consulting the 50mb 80 tab models would go like a dream.
Don't know about Apple and 50mb Excel, but Apple OS no longer runs for weeks on end without a restart. Stuff starts to go wrong, for me anyway, after a two or three days. Safari in particular is a buggy piece of s/w, which I have stopped using.
New Firefox browser is very good, I’ve got a couple of hundred tabs open with no problems. Also make sure to install AdBlockPlus addon (and add PB as an exception of course )
The Remainers are going completely bonkers at Dan Hannan’s recently resurfaced article showing a positive vision for a successful Britain outside the EU. It’s literally their worst nightmare.
Have you read it?
It's sublime
It is. Far more accurate than projections of destitution and despair that were shared by Remainiacs.
No we are moving onto trade talks by the end of the year, despite endless diehard Remainer whinging we were crashing out without a deal
Not necessarily. The Irish could still veto it. And I think that this is a real possibility if the EU strategy is to try to force another vote in the UK. Certainly I have heard some German commentators openly push this line. Pull the govt to the edge, humiliate them, run down the clock some more, then still don't agree, make it their fault, more young voters added to ER - and we'll turn the result over out of fear. And then we will never be asked again, and no other country will ever dare to ask.
No we are moving onto trade talks by the end of the year, despite endless diehard Remainer whinging we were crashing out without a deal
Will the government cave on the Irish border issue, too? Let’s hope so. It’s such a shame all this wasn’t sorted months ago. The Tory loons have caused huge damage.
Mr. Richard, yes. The political consensus that it's virtuous to spend taxpayers' money making the political class feel good about themselves.
We should be using that aid budget more intelligently, such as investing in Zimbabwe. Recent news report said many mineral deposits were on land owned by people too poor to mine it. Investing in such provides local jobs, taxes for the state, and profit for us as well. It's the definition of benevolent self-interest.
No we are moving onto trade talks by the end of the year, despite endless diehard Remainer whinging we were crashing out without a deal
Will the government cave on the Irish border issue, too? Let’s hope so. It’s such a shame all this wasn’t sorted months ago. The Tory loons have caused huge damage.
You've previously said that we should have immediately agreed to £60bn.
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
And Apple machines never crash?
Nope, I tell you what I really love about Apple.
Large excel and word files don't buckle under the strain and crash like they did when we used windows machines.
Really? Because the largest excel and word files are tiny compared to run of the mill sized photos and music. The bible is 4 mb, which is about a 4 minute mp3 (and the mp3 is 10x that before compression).
I regularly use excel files that has multiple tabs that use rows 1,048,576 and XFD columns.
They take up a lot of space.
Is it not more about computational memory that disk space exactly?
So, in theory, a simple 1% annual tax on the value of all homes would eliminate the deficit. A 25% one-off charge on all homeowners would pay off the entire national debt.
You don’t seem to like anyone who owns a home?
If the 1% tax replaced council tax it wouldn’t change much for most and would act as a useful check on house price inflation
It would also eliminate stamp duty and make houses cheaper. I've been a fan for a while (even though it would force me to sell my house)
If you would have to sell your house isn't that quite a good clue that everyone else would? Either that or your house price:income ratio is exceptionally high, which is unlikely assuming you have a job (because the average is skewed, for all levels of house price, by people who don't). What effect do you think this would have on house prices, mortgagees and the economy in general?
My mortgage is high in absolute terms but low as a percentage of asset value (I've traded the property market well over the last 20 years).
House prices will fall. Mortgages will reduce (it will be deducted from salary before looking at affordability) but the ratio will move in the right direction
The key for me is replacing other taxes - I've posted over the years but (from memory) you could reduce council tax by 50%, eliminate stamp duty, cut employer NICs, and have around gbp25bn to reduce the deficit.
No we are moving onto trade talks by the end of the year, despite endless diehard Remainer whinging we were crashing out without a deal
Will the government cave on the Irish border issue, too? Let’s hope so. It’s such a shame all this wasn’t sorted months ago. The Tory loons have caused huge damage.
You've previously said that we should have immediately agreed to £60bn.
Do Windows laptops still get the blue screen of death?
And Apple machines never crash?
Nope, I tell you what I really love about Apple.
Large excel and word files don't buckle under the strain and crash like they did when we used windows machines.
Really? Because the largest excel and word files are tiny compared to run of the mill sized photos and music. The bible is 4 mb, which is about a 4 minute mp3 (and the mp3 is 10x that before compression).
I regularly use excel files that has multiple tabs that use rows 1,048,576 and XFD columns.
They take up a lot of space.
Is it not more about computational memory that disk space exactly?
I thought that too, but the work Windows laptop was highly specced and the files still froze/crash regularly.
I think Windows really don't do the multi-tasking very well.
You never get a complete set of facts from a newspaper
But it appears that she says she arrive before the immigration rules but can't provide (or hasn't to date been able to provide) documentary evidence that she arrived in 68, just that she was in a children's home in the 70s.
Bureaucracies being what they are they need to be consistent (otherwise it's unfair to people who don't have access to the Guardian). So if she provides the evidence and she can stay. The doesn't and she is - by definition - deemed an illegal immigrant.
I'm sure that the Hone Iffice could have been more sympathetic as to how they applied the rules, but their job is to apply the rules.
That's a chilling post, Charles.
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
Surely the point is we have to have rules equally applied to decide whether someone is a citizen ( or has other rights to stay)?
The point is that she is not and never has been a citizen. But she does have the right to apply for indefinite leave to remain. Or even citizenship in due course.
'Rules are rules'. Its pretty much the same story whenever this comes up, most recently when discussing EU migrants. However, the plight of non EU migrants are far, far worse.
Deferring to the supremacy of rules is fine until you yourself on the wrong side of the rules. But the fact of the matter is people who are white and respectable always have ways and means of getting around a rule based system, through money and influence. This is as true for immigration, as it is for anything else.
It is white privilege and it is the same story over and over again. The most basic test of a civilised society is surely that these helpless people have legal representation and a fair crack of the whip at proving their case under the laws as they stand. However, if someone has lived here for fifty years, raised a family here, then to my mind there is no concievable reason why they shouldn't be regarded as citizens.
Of course the EU have the negotiating advantage, but I don't think your strategy of agreeing to whatever the EU suggest without even reading their demands would give us a better result.
Comments
A respectable country doesn't treat its own citizens like this.
https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/935670859997564928
If only we were members of a continent wide union that had such negotiating power...
We should make sure that we get 40% of Kinnock’s and Mandleson’s pensions back!
Besides, it seems you're not being given a fair comparison. Instead of a 'cheap as chips' Windows machine, hold out for an excellent Windows machine of the same value as the Apple machine. If they're not willing to do that, ask them why.
I'm amazed by how much money companies throw away buying Apple kit.
Let me take this down to the basics: what matters about tech is what it allows you to do. A premium is only worth it if it allows you to perform your tasks that much more efficiently. There are a fair few cases (or were) where Apple kit allows you to work better, but most of the time it is just a PITA.
Tornberry may well be wittier if she gets the gig.
'Does the right honourable gentleman know the difference between a hand and a tablecloth?'
Though if they go for a group or collective it is hard to see past #MeToo
If speccing a machine for a power user (developer, designer etc) or senior manager I always speak to them and find out what they want. Companies are fools if their trying to save a few hundred bucks on hardware results in their expensive new hire not being as productive as they otherwise could be. It’s amazing the difference a second screen or an upgraded graphics card can make.
The other concessions are to get a FTA as we are leaving the single market
No offence to any local enthusiasts.
From speaking to friends doing immigration work the usual problem is vouching the presence but if she has NI records as claimed by the Guardian that should not be a problem.
One of the reasons I won't leave my current job is that we use Macbooks not Windows machines.
They have a multilingual black crash screen instead.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Panic10.6.png
Large excel and word files don't buckle under the strain and crash like they did when we used windows machines.
The point is that it should not be a choice between a cheap laptop and a mac, but instead have a budget for a machine and pick the one that allows you to do the job best (taking into account the IT department's capabilities as well - Apples and PCs sometimes don't get on, mainly thanks to Apple).
If your company pays more for Macs and less for PCs, I'd strongly suggest the company's IT department (or more) is poorly run.
Kinder, fairer politics.
Ah....
McDonnell is their poster boy.
However that caveat is the killer. I *may* be able to be persuaded that a Conservative government might introduce such a tax and spend well. But a Corbynite one? No way.
Others may differ, but I'm far from the only person who doesn't instinctively dislike taxes, but doesn't trust the government to spend it wisely.
@mrjamesob: We’re paying tens of billions of pounds to leave the world’s largest free trade area while surrendering all of our ability to define its rights & regulations.
All so that we can hopefully start negotiating an inferior arrangement with the world’s largest free trade area.
I haven't. I always wait a while. Maybe its my computer science background.
There would have to be complex exceptions otherwise you’ll get “Jeremy Corbyn’s heartless tax throws 90 year old frail widow onto the streets because it’s not her fault she moved to the family home she shared with her war hero husband (sadly departed), in 1965 when it was only worth two groats. Oh and her disabled cat Tibbles will starve too” stories. And joking darkly aside many will be true, and I’m sure the Jezziah’s halo will slip.
It's sublime
Although in one case I know personally, it was because the head of IT was a massive Apple fan. He wanted the latest kit, and so would encourage people to get it for work, as then he'd need one to 'test' it on the network.
Shop-bought Windows PCs would be much better if they didn't come preloaded with all sorts of cr@p. In one case (HP) I couldn't actually remove it all from a new PC, and had to reinstall the OS fresh. IMO this extra unwanted crud is a significant cause of system instabilities and slow-downs on PCs: my anecdotal evidence is that PCs without it are more stable and faster.
A good IT department should be reinstalling the OS on any new kit, Windows, Apple or Linux (in the unusual case that it was supplied with Linux.)
Such delusion makes serious conversations rather difficult.
https://www.channel4.com/news/tulip-siddiq-mp-and-niece-of-bangladesh-pm-asked-to-help-free-barrister-abducted-by-men-apparently-linked-to-government
When I was in consulting the 50mb 80 tab models would go like a dream.
In the US, Lenovo machines are imaged, with SEP and SCCM installed for complete control.
In the Far East, they bought a bunch of laptops with Windows Home Edition installed...
They take up a lot of space.
https://twitter.com/BeardedGenius/status/935630445739413504
https://twitter.com/daveydurbs/status/935796269225791488
We should be using that aid budget more intelligently, such as investing in Zimbabwe. Recent news report said many mineral deposits were on land owned by people too poor to mine it. Investing in such provides local jobs, taxes for the state, and profit for us as well. It's the definition of benevolent self-interest.
House prices will fall. Mortgages will reduce (it will be deducted from salary before looking at affordability) but the ratio will move in the right direction
The key for me is replacing other taxes - I've posted over the years but (from memory) you could reduce council tax by 50%, eliminate stamp duty, cut employer NICs, and have around gbp25bn to reduce the deficit.
I think Windows really don't do the multi-tasking very well.
Deferring to the supremacy of rules is fine until you yourself on the wrong side of the rules. But the fact of the matter is people who are white and respectable always have ways and means of getting around a rule based system, through money and influence. This is as true for immigration, as it is for anything else.
It is white privilege and it is the same story over and over again. The most basic test of a civilised society is surely that these helpless people have legal representation and a fair crack of the whip at proving their case under the laws as they stand. However, if someone has lived here for fifty years, raised a family here, then to my mind there is no concievable reason why they shouldn't be regarded as citizens.
EU: £60bn
SO: Done
EU £65bn
SO: Done
EU: £70bn
SO: Done
EU: £80bn
SO: Done
EU: £100bn
SO: Done