Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
Also don't forget they lied about being a random member of the public that witnessed the incident claiming that their kid overheard it and it upset them.
Two sides to this argument, firstly, the main reason watching porn is banned on work computers is that a lot of the Web sites concerned were honey traps for viruses and other nasties, as such nearly all organisations have rules making looking at it a potentially sackable offence. (Accidently clicking on a link and finding lots of pictures flashing onto the screen happens and will lead to a "wrist slap" and a telling off to be more careful. While a consistent record over a period of time is a definite no-no and P45 time) The other side is the serving or retired Police officers disclosing information which is embarrassing to a senior member of the government. Apart from being naughty to the extent of being illegal, if the information is true, then if they don't disclose, they are accused of a cover up, if they do disclose the information, they are accused of having an agenda (shock, horror, how can anyone ever be accused of having an agenda? If it was a sackable offence, most of those in Westminster would be in prison let alone being unemployed or working as lawyers). If the Police, or more likely, a small number of officers have an "agenda" to rid the country of something that they consider a danger to their organisation or to the public /country/monarchy whatever, then that is worrying on many different levels. That sections of the media, in defense or attack on Green are keeping the story live is continuing the damage to the Tory government and incidentally, diverting attention from the increasing mess they are making of Brexit/Defence/NHS/etc./etc... As far as I concerned, and probably most of the public, looking at porn, either at work or elsewhere, is irrelevant, being caught out 10 years later, totally irrelevant, but getting the feeling of being "played" is just increasing the distrust of the administration.
Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
No, to the first question. Even the police are not claiming that although they tried to claim he had acted illegally at the time (unconvincingly given that the man who appears to have ordered the raid had himself consistently leaked government secrets in the 1980s).
No to the second question as well because we always expect MPs to be a lot of tossers. What else can you expect from a job that demands long hours, living away from home and is dominated by mass debating?
I was struck yesterday by how many journalists on twitter, and by no means the usual suspects, were focusing on the role of the police. They may have overreached themselves.
I'm pretty sure that I made this point when I was drunk last night, but heads really should be rolling at the BBC over this. They are accomplices to whatever crimes these bent cops have committed. They should have sent that interview straight to the police, and let someone else take the risk of reporting it. What they've done in spreading it around the world is an absolute disgrace.
I was struck yesterday by how many journalists on twitter, and by no means the usual suspects, were focusing on the role of the police. They may have overreached themselves.
In a way though it is progress. They're now pissing off everybody rather than just the enemies of the people who pay their wages.
Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
Equally as bad as maybe calling someone a pleb?
The kindest assumption is that that is not intended as a serious question.
Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
Equally as bad as maybe calling someone a pleb?
Calling someone a pleb is a crass stupid thing to do which reveals much about the man. Whether or not it results in further action is a political decision.
Serving police officers lying about the content of a meeting for the purposes of discrediting a public servant should be grounds for dismissal.
It is not just my opinion. Lord Normington chaired a review into the workings of the Police Federation after Plebgate and found a "worrying loss of competence". This is on the back of the Federation threatening legal action against the IPCC because they dared to investigate the three officers who lied about the meeting with Mitchell.
With plebgate, I also thought it seemed a massive media over reaction / total focus on the word pleb. Would he have been ok if he called them a dick, what about tw@t or wanker? And I am sure the police get called far worse every day.
The story for me was him not adhering to the rules, not what word he used.
We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly.
....Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need
Two sides to this argument, firstly, the main reason watching porn is banned on work computers is that a lot of the Web sites concerned were honey traps for viruses and other nasties, as such nearly all organisations have rules making looking at it a potentially sackable offence. (Accidently clicking on a link and finding lots of pictures flashing onto the screen happens and will lead to a "wrist slap" and a telling off to be more careful. While a consistent record over a period of time is a definite no-no and P45 time) The other side is the serving or retired Police officers disclosing information which is embarrassing to a senior member of the government. Apart from being naughty to the extent of being illegal, if the information is true, then if they don't disclose, they are accused of a cover up, if they do disclose the information, they are accused of having an agenda (shock, horror, how can anyone ever be accused of having an agenda? If it was a sackable offence, most of those in Westminster would be in prison let alone being unemployed or working as lawyers). If the Police, or more likely, a small number of officers have an "agenda" to rid the country of something that they consider a danger to their organisation or to the public /country/monarchy whatever, then that is worrying on many different levels. That sections of the media, in defense or attack on Green are keeping the story live is continuing the damage to the Tory government and incidentally, diverting attention from the increasing mess they are making of Brexit/Defence/NHS/etc./etc... As far as I concerned, and probably most of the public, looking at porn, either at work or elsewhere, is irrelevant, being caught out 10 years later, totally irrelevant, but getting the feeling of being "played" is just increasing the distrust of the administration.
There were some fairly startling stats released the other day about the number of times per day HoC computers are prevented by the firewall from accessing porn. The stats were accompanied by the old favourite "it was a popup opened by another site", ignoring the points that all browsers efficiently block popups these days, and that a site you look at which tries to open porny popups is probably not Gardener's World Online in the first place. Anyway if it was me I'd fire the IT department if a virus got into the system from a porn site, and mildly reprimand the pornseeker.
Serving officers lying about a meeting with an MP and only being caught out because he recorded the meeting should have resulted in dismissals and prosecutions. That they did not is equally as bad as the original crime.
Equally as bad as maybe calling someone a pleb?
Calling someone a pleb is a crass stupid thing to do which reveals much about the man. Whether or not it results in further action is a political decision.
Serving police officers lying about the content of a meeting for the purposes of discrediting a public servant should be grounds for dismissal.
It is not just my opinion. Lord Normington chaired a review into the workings of the Police Federation after Plebgate and found a "worrying loss of competence". This is on the back of the Federation threatening legal action against the IPCC because they dared to investigate the three officers who lied about the meeting with Mitchell.
Precisely. I don't think maybe crass and stupid is "equally as bad" as bent cops dishonestly conspiring against an elected politician.
I'm pretty sure that I made this point when I was drunk last night, but heads really should be rolling at the BBC over this. They are accomplices to whatever crimes these bent cops have committed. They should have sent that interview straight to the police, and let someone else take the risk of reporting it. What they've done in spreading it around the world is an absolute disgrace.
Two sides to this argument, firstly, the main reason watching porn is banned on work computers is that a lot of the Web sites concerned were honey traps for viruses and other nasties, as such nearly all organisations have rules making looking at it a potentially sackable offence. (Accidently clicking on a link and finding lots of pictures flashing onto the screen happens and will lead to a "wrist slap" and a telling off to be more careful. While a consistent record over a period of time is a definite no-no and P45 time)
Another side of this argument is that a lot of completely legal websites of jokes and videos a decade ago, were full of pop ups for porn sites. Remember that a decade ago YouTube and Facebook were very new. Without proper analysis of the computer and network it’s not possible to determine whether the porn was something that someone intended to view or if it popped up inadvertently.
It’s way out of order for retired policemen to have kept their notes and then come out a decade later to say they found stuff that was embarrassing but not illegal.
Today, I would have hoped that HoC computers would have anti-virus, anti-malware and adblockers installed as standard....But I bet they don't.
A lot of this stuff is now handled at the firewall level, and modern computers and browsers are much better at dealing with Internet crap than they used to be, for example with the security screen that comes up when one tries to install software. Adblockers should be standard everywhere, adverts are the biggest source of malware - but they’re not.
Incidentally the film 'Battle of the Sexes' about the tennis match between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs is surprisingly watchable.
A very well written script by Simon Beaufoy (from Yorkshire!) and brilliantlly acted it turned out to be everything I wasn't expecting. Apart from too much focus on Billie Jean's lesbianism it was a wonderful critique of early feminism, gender equality, American consumerism, gambling and an interesting history of 70's tennis.
Today, I would have hoped that HoC computers would have anti-virus, anti-malware and adblockers installed as standard....But I bet they don't.
A lot of this stuff is now handled at the firewall level, and modern computers and browsers are much better at dealing with Internet crap than they used to be, for example with the security screen that comes up when one tries to install software. Adblockers should be standard everywhere, adverts are the biggest source of malware - but they’re not.
I have recently gone to using the brave browser on mobile, where Adblock extensions are not available.
Very good. The standout statistic there is Mercedes having 39 race finishes from 40 entries. Every one of the 39 in the points, with Bottas’ engine failure in Spain the only failure to finish of the whole season.
Force India were almost as reliable, their 4th place finish in the contructors’ championship came from that rather than outright pace.
It’s way out of order for retired policemen to have kept their notes and then come out a decade later to say they found stuff that was embarrassing but not illegal.
Whatever the ins and outs of whatever they did or did not find on Green's computer, it would appear to me that actually what the ex-police officers have done here is illegal. If they have retained records not germane to the initial investigation, and then made them public, that appears prima facie to be a double breach of the data protection act.
Has Green committed a crime or has his standards fallen below what we might expect of an MP.?
We want our MPs to be monks and saints, but also to live in the real world.
The real world? Porn on a work computer? No.
It’s not for serving or ex police to resolve that is the key. Green actling like a cock or on his cock at work is not for them to police. If he’s done it it should have been looked into at the time and his constituents could make a judgement if they still wanted this guy to serve them. Taking police notes and settling scores to punish him is not on. It is not their job, and that people should wank at work, or misuse an official laptop, does not change that.
Anger at them does not mean what he did is right, if it’s true, but it is irrelevant to justifying their actions.
The idea that we know the full story is absurd. It gets messy when two part of establishment tear into one another. The best thing to do is watch, learn and try to fathom out the murky backstory.
No white hats and black hats here.
Nah. We'd hear a very different story from you if this was a Labour MP involved.
You have your partisan blinkers on: your worst trait.
And that's from someone who actually quite likes you.
We are in a climate where putting your arm around someone's shoulder twenty years ago or asking someone out for a drink with a twinkle in your eye is now so heinous an offense that I believe the policemen actually believed exposing Damien Green was a public service.
Until we reset our values and stop this guilty until proved innoceent in anything relating to inter personal relationships episodes like Damien Green will happen repeatedly.
....Or perhaps this'll be the turning point we desperately need
a site you look at which tries to open porny popups is probably not Gardener's World Online in the first place.
Does nobody on here ever try to access live sports streaming on line? (when they don't have Sky/BTSport etc etc). Virtually impossible to go looking for it without risking opening up unrelated popups.
Incidentally the film 'Battle of the Sexes' about the tennis match between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs is surprisingly watchable.
A very well written script by Simon Beaufoy (from Yorkshire!) and brilliantlly acted it turned out to be everything I wasn't expecting. Apart from too much focus on Billie Jean's lesbianism it was a wonderful critique of early feminism, gender equality, American consumerism, gambling and an interesting history of 70's tennis.
Looking forward to that. Really enjoyed "I, Tonya" too about skater Tonya Harding. You think that these clowns she was surrounded by must be cartoons - until over the credits, you see actual footage of them - and have to shake your head. The amount of casual violence she endured is quite shocking, as is the way that she got marked down on her performances just for coming from the wrong side of the tracks. An especially fine turn as her mother by Allison Janney (aka The West Wing's CJ).
Although Death of Stalin is head and shoulders above anything else this year - so far.
I'm pretty sure that I made this point when I was drunk last night, but heads really should be rolling at the BBC over this. They are accomplices to whatever crimes these bent cops have committed. They should have sent that interview straight to the police, and let someone else take the risk of reporting it. What they've done in spreading it around the world is an absolute disgrace.
I hope you support the prosecution of all those involved with the stolen data of the Paradise Papers and with the parliamentary expenses scandal too. Stolen information is stolen information.
a site you look at which tries to open porny popups is probably not Gardener's World Online in the first place.
Does nobody on here ever try to access live sports streaming on line? (when they don't have Sky/BTSport etc etc). Virtually impossible to go looking for it without risking opening up unrelated popups.
Yes, requires good calibration of your adblocker for both black and white lists, and careful closing of frames and pop ups in the right order to avoid the spam.
I find the behaviour of the retired policeman in the Green quite extraordinary. Keeping a police notebook is a disgrace. This was not his personal property but police property, potentially containing relevant evidence. The fact that it has been taken means that its probative evidence is nil. The chain of evidence has been broken. No-one can have any confidence that what is written in it was written at the time, was accurate and has not been tampered with.
Second, investigating what is on a computer, who accessed it and whem requires a very accurate and forensically tight investigation in order to maintain the integrity of the evidence. It is not a simple matter of opening a computer and rooting round to have a look. The mere act of doing that, if not done properly, with an audit trail of what is done, risks destroying evidence, such as the metadata contained on the computer itself.
The likelihood of this being done, given that the focus of the original investigation was not pornography, is not high.
So the information being put out in the public domain risks damaging Green’s character with no real possibility of the allegations being proved or disproved. It is quite disgraceful for the police to leak details of an investigation and the justification that this is to protect or defend a senior officer really does not stack up. There was no public interest in revealing the information in the first place.
It does seem to me that the target here may not be Green himself but his close ally, Mrs May, who was not seen as the police’s friend and spoke some hard truths to them. Attacking one of her few allies, especially at a time when she is perceived as weak, might be one way of getting their revenge.
Very poor and very worrying behaviour by some in the police.
The interview with senior Manchester policeman on Radio 4 this morning shows that senior policemen, some of them, do get this.
I'm pretty sure that I made this point when I was drunk last night, but heads really should be rolling at the BBC over this. They are accomplices to whatever crimes these bent cops have committed. They should have sent that interview straight to the police, and let someone else take the risk of reporting it. What they've done in spreading it around the world is an absolute disgrace.
I hope you support the prosecution of all those involved with the stolen data of the Paradise Papers and with the parliamentary expenses scandal too. Stolen information is stolen information.
And there’s a massive difference between what is in the public interest, and what the public might find interesting.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
The Times has been ridiculously partisan on this matter. No objectivity on display whatsoever.
There’s a group of people who clearly want Green out, in order to destabilise the government.
I’d take a good guess that ‘friends’ of a certain newspaper editor former politician might have something to do with it, or possibly ‘friends’ of a former DPP who knows the case well and now has a somewhat more political job...
I'm pretty sure that I made this point when I was drunk last night, but heads really should be rolling at the BBC over this. They are accomplices to whatever crimes these bent cops have committed. They should have sent that interview straight to the police, and let someone else take the risk of reporting it. What they've done in spreading it around the world is an absolute disgrace.
I hope you support the prosecution of all those involved with the stolen data of the Paradise Papers and with the parliamentary expenses scandal too. Stolen information is stolen information.
And there’s a massive difference between what is in the public interest, and what the public might find interesting.
Though this did come to attention because the Deputy PM is being investigated for posssible inappropriate sexual behaviour. Public Interest is a reasonable defence.
There’s a group of people who clearly want Green out, in order to destabilise the government.
I’d take a good guess that ‘friends’ of a certain newspaper editor former politician might have something to do with it, or possibly ‘friends’ of a former DPP who knows the case well and now has a somewhat more political job...
And the reality is here's yesterday's articles in The Standard about Green.
Damian Green and Scotland Yard faced questions today after a retired detective claimed he found “thousands” of pornographic images on the Cabinet minister’s computer.
The allegation heaped further pressure on Theresa May’s embattled deputy. However, it also left Scotland Yard in the spotlight about its handling of personal data obtained in investigations.
Lord Carlile, the former watchdog over anti-terror laws, called on Met chief Cressida Dick to exert her “authority” and take control of the force’s handling of the controversy.
He told the Standard it was “unacceptable” for former officers to dredge up old evidence to embarrass people. Ex-Cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell said it was an attempt to “blacken” Mr Green’s name.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
And the argument that we need have no standards because it's "their business" and they are subject to election is absurd - particularly given our voting system with so many MPs well sheltered from normal electoral pressure.
On the question of dishonesty, you cannot say that: trying to assess whether there was pornography on a computer, when it was downloaded or whether it was viewed and by whom is not an easy task. For instance, if say Mr Green was speaking Parliamentary debates at the time when the computer shows images being viewed then who was viewing them? Someone else who had access? Very very difficult to determine this at the time let alone a decade later. Could there have been a virus?
It is simply not possible to say with any certainty whether or not Mr Green was lying when he made his original statement. Look at that statement and you will see how both his statement and the police’s original revelations could be consistent with each other. And why were those original revelations made? No conceivable public interest in doing so. There was no suggestion of a breach of any law. And yet this Mr Lewis is now claiming that he is a whistleblower and entitled to breach confidentiality on the basis of Green’s dishonesty when that has never been established in the first place and when the public interet defence is thin at best. Furthermore, how much credit should one give to Mr Lewis’s claims when he has admitted taking potentially relevant evidence without authority and not complying with instructions?
Second, the police investigate breaches of the criminal law. Disciplinary matters are not for them. Nor standards of moral decency. It is not that there should be no standards but that it is not the job of the police to establish or monitor them let alone use them as a sword to defend a colleague.
Mr Herdson is suggesting that it is OK for a cabinet minister to lie if the subject of the lie got into the public domain inappropriately. Sorry, but no. A lie is a lie, and if a cabinet minister is found to have been lying then they have to go.
While I agree that the ex-rozzers have a case to answer over this, I do not like the way that Tories are trying to use this to deflect from the actions of Green.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It seems to me that dealing with this as "Breaches of Data Protection" is a little cotton-batting. Surely we are into Malicious Communucations if not Misconduct in a Public Office - though that would be a tricky argument to make.
It seems to me that dealing with this as "Breaches of Data Protection" is a little cotton-batting. Surely we are into Malicious Communucations if not Misconduct in a Public Office - though that would be a tricky argument to make.
At the present time only Green is in a public office, so surely the last one falls regarding the police officers?
The allegations against Green are in many ways a separate issue. Indeed as Sandy notes, one of the things these officers have done is deflect attention away from them.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
I concur with your view Nigelb. As David says, under these circumstances it isn't a sackable offence. Nor, in this case, do I think it appropriate for ex-Policemen to comment on what was found at that time. It does have the feel of Plebgate to it. Green shouldn't have done what is alleged on a work's computer but I'm afraid it reinforces my opinion of most politicians as individuals who are out of touch with the real world and I'll leave it at that.
In the real world, virtually everyone lies about sex and virtually everyone watches porn. And I wouldn't believe those that said they didn't.
Next.
Ahem....You might want to qualify that “virtually everyone” by saying “ virtually every male”......
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It sounds like you're enjoying this. Sad..
No, but while the ex police have acted badly, so has Green. No one is going to come out of this looking good. I am not calling for any sackings or resignations. I am happy for the Cabinet office to investigate.
I am increasingly concerned that sensible Tories are joining in attacks on the institutions of democracy, including not only the police, but also the judicary, parliament, and even professions like my own, and Civil Service, but also the teachers and universities. Formerly these were only under attack from the Trotskyite left.
It doesn't bode well for the stability of our democratic infrastructure.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
On his work computer? I disagree, he might well have to resign if the complaint is proved.
But, we have a separate issue here: (1) it was obtained by the police under highly dubious circumstances (2) it was not reported to the Parlaimentary authorities at the time (probably correctly as it happens given the circumstances) (3) it is now being used in a way that appears unlawful to damage him over an unrelated matter in such a way that it could appear to be motivated by malice.
You don't have to be an anarchist or a Tory to say the way the police have behaved absolutely stinks.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It sounds like you're enjoying this. Sad..
No, but while the ex police have acted badly, so has Green. No one is going to come out of this looking good. I am not calling for any sackings or resignations. I am haply for the Cabinet office to investigate.
I am increasingly concerned that sensible Tories are joining in attacks on the institutions of democracy, including not only the police, but also the judicary, parliament, and even professions like my own, and Civil Service, but also the teachers and universities. Formerly thesewere only under attack from the Trotskyite left.
It doesn't bode well for the stability of our democratic infrastructure.
You've no idea how Green has behaved. It's quite possible he has been set up.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
There are lots of legal things which are totally inappropriate at work. The fact that this is the houses of parliament and not B&Q should be irrelevant.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It sounds like you're enjoying this. Sad..
No, but while the ex police have acted badly, so has Green. No one is going to come out of this looking good. I am not calling for any sackings or resignations. I am haply for the Cabinet office to investigate.
I am increasingly concerned that sensible Tories are joining in attacks on the institutions of democracy, including not only the police, but also the judicary, parliament, and even professions like my own, and Civil Service, but also the teachers and universities. Formerly thesewere only under attack from the Trotskyite left.
It doesn't bode well for the stability of our democratic infrastructure.
If you do not agree with these so called institutions of course they will come under attack and many will
I concur with your view Nigelb. As David says, under these circumstances it isn't a sackable offence. Nor, in this case, do I think it appropriate for ex-Policemen to comment on what was found at that time. It does have the feel of Plebgate to it. Green shouldn't have done what is alleged on a work's computer but I'm afraid it reinforces my opinion of most politicians as individuals who are out of touch with the real world and I'll leave it at that.
In the real world, virtually everyone lies about sex and virtually everyone watches porn. And I wouldn't believe those that said they didn't.
Next.
Ahem....You might want to qualify that “virtually everyone” by saying “ virtually every male”......
I do remember some TV report in which it was claimed (accurately, I suspect) that 100% of 13-15 year old boys with smart phones or internet access watched porn. The (female) presenter looked shocked and started wibbling as to whether that just referred to certain groups. She was then told no, it was all of them. My guess was that she had a teenage son.
It’s way out of order for retired policemen to have kept their notes and then come out a decade later to say they found stuff that was embarrassing but not illegal.
Whatever the ins and outs of whatever they did or did not find on Green's computer, it would appear to me that actually what the ex-police officers have done here is illegal. If they have retained records not germane to the initial investigation, and then made them public, that appears prima facie to be a double breach of the data protection act.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It sounds like you're enjoying this. Sad..
No, but while the ex police have acted badly, so has Green. No one is going to come out of this looking good. I am not calling for any sackings or resignations. I am happy for the Cabinet office to investigate.
I am increasingly concerned that sensible Tories are joining in attacks on the institutions of democracy, including not only the police, but also the judicary, parliament, and even professions like my own, and Civil Service, but also the teachers and universities. Formerly these were only under attack from the Trotskyite left.
It doesn't bode well for the stability of our democratic infrastructure.
Perhaps sensible Tories feel they're coming under attack from some of these institutions.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It sounds like you're enjoying this. Sad..
No, but while the ex police have acted badly, so has Green. No one is going to come out of this looking good. I am not calling for any sackings or resignations. I am haply for the Cabinet office to investigate.
I am increasingly concerned that sensible Tories are joining in attacks on the institutions of democracy, including not only the police, but also the judicary, parliament, and even professions like my own, and Civil Service, but also the teachers and universities. Formerly thesewere only under attack from the Trotskyite left.
It doesn't bode well for the stability of our democratic infrastructure.
You've no idea how Green has behaved. It's quite possible he has been set up.
Like I have said, I am not calling for resignation and happy for the Cabinet Office to investigate, as indeed is Mr Green.
Mr. Sandpit, thanks (been AFK, hence slow reply). The reliability stats did strike me, hence the inclusion of Perez/Ocon in the driver graph. Worth bearing in mind for next year too.
Miss Cyclefree, hmm. I do think women rather overplay their virtue in such cases. Not to mention, they're the gender supporting the sex toy industry.
Incidentally the film 'Battle of the Sexes' about the tennis match between Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs is surprisingly watchable.
A very well written script by Simon Beaufoy (from Yorkshire!) and brilliantlly acted it turned out to be everything I wasn't expecting. Apart from too much focus on Billie Jean's lesbianism it was a wonderful critique of early feminism, gender equality, American consumerism, gambling and an interesting history of 70's tennis.
Looking forward to that. Really enjoyed "I, Tonya" too about skater Tonya Harding. You think that these clowns she was surrounded by must be cartoons - until over the credits, you see actual footage of them - and have to shake your head. The amount of casual violence she endured is quite shocking, as is the way that she got marked down on her performances just for coming from the wrong side of the tracks. An especially fine turn as her mother by Allison Janney (aka The West Wing's CJ).
Although Death of Stalin is head and shoulders above anything else this year - so far.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
He won't be resigning over the porn. If he does resign it will be if he has lied about it.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
On his work computer? I disagree, he might well have to resign if the complaint is proved.
But, we have a separate issue here: (1) it was obtained by the police under highly dubious circumstances (2) it was not reported to the Parlaimentary authorities at the time (probably correctly as it happens given the circumstances) (3) it is now being used in a way that appears unlawful to damage him over an unrelated matter in such a way that it could appear to be motivated by malice.
You don't have to be an anarchist or a Tory to say the way the police have behaved absolutely stinks.
As someone pointed out upthread, the toffs are only getting a dose of what less advantaged sections of our community have experienced for years. Ask, for example, Ricky Tomlinson.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
There are lots of legal things which are totally inappropriate at work. The fact that this is the houses of parliament and not B&Q should be irrelevant.
No rational employer would be investigating an allegation that someone had looked at porn 9 years ago, especially when the allegation came from someone with a grudge.
Interesting comments from Cameron that he regrets not being able to implement his £72 000 cap on care costs for dementia so an insurance model would develop.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
On his work computer? I disagree, he might well have to resign if the complaint is proved.
But, we have a separate issue here: (1) it was obtained by the police under highly dubious circumstances (2) it was not reported to the Parlaimentary authorities at the time (probably correctly as it happens given the circumstances) (3) it is now being used in a way that appears unlawful to damage him over an unrelated matter in such a way that it could appear to be motivated by malice.
You don't have to be an anarchist or a Tory to say the way the police have behaved absolutely stinks.
As someone pointed out upthread, the toffs are only getting a dose of what less advantaged sections of our community have experienced for years. Ask, for example, Ricky Tomlinson.
Or Blair Peach. Or winston Silcott, or the Orgreave pickets...
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It sounds like you're enjoying this. Sad..
No, but while the ex police have acted badly, so has Green. No one is going to come out of this looking good. I am not calling for any sackings or resignations. I am happy for the Cabinet office to investigate.
I am increasingly concerned that sensible Tories are joining in attacks on the institutions of democracy, including not only the police, but also the judicary, parliament, and even professions like my own, and Civil Service, but also the teachers and universities. Formerly these were only under attack from the Trotskyite left.
It doesn't bode well for the stability of our democratic infrastructure.
And what rubbish about "concern" for our institutions. You're prepared to ignore the obviously disgraceful behaviour of the bent coppers because it damages the government, and increases the chances of Corbyn and no Brexit. You're making an utter arse of yourself.
Absolutely right. Damien Green is a human being like everyone else. He should not have to resign for having legal pornography on his computer. This is a politically motivated witch hunt
On his work computer? I disagree, he might well have to resign if the complaint is proved.
But, we have a separate issue here: (1) it was obtained by the police under highly dubious circumstances (2) it was not reported to the Parlaimentary authorities at the time (probably correctly as it happens given the circumstances) (3) it is now being used in a way that appears unlawful to damage him over an unrelated matter in such a way that it could appear to be motivated by malice.
You don't have to be an anarchist or a Tory to say the way the police have behaved absolutely stinks.
As someone pointed out upthread, the toffs are only getting a dose of what less advantaged sections of our community have experienced for years. Ask, for example, Ricky Tomlinson.
Or Blair Peach. Or winston Silcott, or the Orgreave pickets...
Winston Silcott has an extremely unpleasant criminal record. He is no martyr.
Time to nationalise the energy companies. Put an end to this bullsh*t.
That's what 77% of the public wants.
Come on tories. Do it.
Take back control.
If people want to nationalise energy companies they can vote for Corbyn Labour who are committed to that policy, Tories are not going to deny them a choice of energy company.
Mr Herdson is suggesting that it is OK for a cabinet minister to lie if the subject of the lie got into the public domain inappropriately. Sorry, but no. A lie is a lie, and if a cabinet minister is found to have been lying then they have to go.
While I agree that the ex-rozzers have a case to answer over this, I do not like the way that Tories are trying to use this to deflect from the actions of Green.
I do not think it is OK for a Minister to lie.
But the point is that it will not be possible to establish that Green has lied for the reasons I have put downthread. So what these two policemen are doing is impugning a man’s character with no real possibility for him to clear his name. That is quite wrong. These policemen have used material apparently obtained in the course of one investigation for another purpose wholly unconnected to the original investigation. Furthermore, they have abused their powers of seizure by using the material gained for their own, apoarently, private reasons.
These are abuses of power. And they should concern us all, whether we are trade unionists, Irishmen fitted up for crimes we did not commit, football fans or MPs. Or anyone else frankly.
A few years ago, the son of a friend of mine was picked up by the police when he was trying to commit suicide. He was later detained in a mental hospital to receive treatment. There is a record of what the police did. They are to be congratulated for the help they gave to a very troubled young man, who is now putting his life back together. Now imagine if he were to become a public figure and someone in the police sought to use this incident to discredit him years later.
We must have absolute confidence that those in authority with powers over us do not abuse those powers and do not misuse confidential and sensitive information they obtain as a result of exercising those powers. Forget data protection. This is much more serious.
Why, of all the notebooks Mr Lewis must have filled during his career, was this one the only one he kept? Why was the extensive pornography he claims he found not mentioned in his 2008 report?
Mr. Sandpit, thanks (been AFK, hence slow reply). The reliability stats did strike me, hence the inclusion of Perez/Ocon in the driver graph. Worth bearing in mind for next year too.
Miss Cyclefree, hmm. I do think women rather overplay their virtue in such cases. Not to mention, they're the gender supporting the sex toy industry.
Speak for yourself Mr D. Most pornography is not aimed at women and has a rather brutal and reductive view of what sex is like, what real women are like and what their needs and desires are. We do not exist purely so that men can show off their tackle in some narcissistic, hard, fast, big “look at me” blow out.
If men spent a bit less time looking at pornography and a bit more focusing on real women, perhaps we might not need sex toys.......
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
I remember the good old days when the plod only fitted up protesters, trade unionists, football fans, darkies and Irishmen. They shouldnt be allowed to fit up privileged white men.
It sounds like you're enjoying this. Sad..
No, but while the ex police have acted badly so has Green.
Comments
The other side is the serving or retired Police officers disclosing information which is embarrassing to a senior member of the government. Apart from being naughty to the extent of being illegal, if the information is true, then if they don't disclose, they are accused of a cover up, if they do disclose the information, they are accused of having an agenda (shock, horror, how can anyone ever be accused of having an agenda? If it was a sackable offence, most of those in Westminster would be in prison let alone being unemployed or working as lawyers).
If the Police, or more likely, a small number of officers have an "agenda" to rid the country of something that they consider a danger to their organisation or to the public /country/monarchy whatever, then that is worrying on many different levels.
That sections of the media, in defense or attack on Green are keeping the story live is continuing the damage to the Tory government and incidentally, diverting attention from the increasing mess they are making of Brexit/Defence/NHS/etc./etc...
As far as I concerned, and probably most of the public, looking at porn, either at work or elsewhere, is irrelevant, being caught out 10 years later, totally irrelevant, but getting the feeling of being "played" is just increasing the distrust of the administration.
No to the second question as well because we always expect MPs to be a lot of tossers. What else can you expect from a job that demands long hours, living away from home and is dominated by mass debating?
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/2017-post-season-review.html
Serving police officers lying about the content of a meeting for the purposes of discrediting a public servant should be grounds for dismissal.
It is not just my opinion. Lord Normington chaired a review into the workings of the Police Federation after Plebgate and found a "worrying loss of competence". This is on the back of the Federation threatening legal action against the IPCC because they dared to investigate the three officers who lied about the meeting with Mitchell.
The story for me was him not adhering to the rules, not what word he used.
It’s way out of order for retired policemen to have kept their notes and then come out a decade later to say they found stuff that was embarrassing but not illegal.
His main claim to fame appears to have been popularising mutilation as a way of dealing with rivals.
A very well written script by Simon Beaufoy (from Yorkshire!) and brilliantlly acted it turned out to be everything I wasn't expecting. Apart from too much focus on Billie Jean's lesbianism it was a wonderful critique of early feminism, gender equality, American consumerism, gambling and an interesting history of 70's tennis.
Force India were almost as reliable, their 4th place finish in the contructors’ championship came from that rather than outright pace.
You have your partisan blinkers on: your worst trait.
And that's from someone who actually quite likes you.
Does nobody on here ever try to access live sports streaming on line? (when they don't have Sky/BTSport etc etc). Virtually impossible to go looking for it without risking opening up unrelated popups.
Rugby union is the only proper, pure rugby.
No big girl's blouse fifth tackle rule in proper rugby.
Although Death of Stalin is head and shoulders above anything else this year - so far.
I find the behaviour of the retired policeman in the Green quite extraordinary. Keeping a police notebook is a disgrace. This was not his personal property but police property, potentially containing relevant evidence. The fact that it has been taken means that its probative evidence is nil. The chain of evidence has been broken. No-one can have any confidence that what is written in it was written at the time, was accurate and has not been tampered with.
Second, investigating what is on a computer, who accessed it and whem requires a very accurate and forensically tight investigation in order to maintain the integrity of the evidence. It is not a simple matter of opening a computer and rooting round to have a look. The mere act of doing that, if not done properly, with an audit trail of what is done, risks destroying evidence, such as the metadata contained on the computer itself.
The likelihood of this being done, given that the focus of the original investigation was not pornography, is not high.
So the information being put out in the public domain risks damaging Green’s character with no real possibility of the allegations being proved or disproved. It is quite disgraceful for the police to leak details of an investigation and the justification that this is to protect or defend a senior officer really does not stack up. There was no public interest in revealing the information in the first place.
It does seem to me that the target here may not be Green himself but his close ally, Mrs May, who was not seen as the police’s friend and spoke some hard truths to them. Attacking one of her few allies, especially at a time when she is perceived as weak, might be one way of getting their revenge.
Very poor and very worrying behaviour by some in the police.
The interview with senior Manchester policeman on Radio 4 this morning shows that senior policemen, some of them, do get this.
A cabinet source said: “Damian might have survived if this was dealt with immediately but the longer this is drawn out, the more there is a sense this is unsustainable. There are now so many allegations out there, it is hard to work out how they will be dealt with.”
Another Tory source said that at least one senior aide in Downing Street thought that Mr Green was likely to have to go. “There are senior figures in No 10 who think he should resign,” they said.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/cabinet-split-over-damian-green-after-police-porn-claims-h7gglljtg
https://twitter.com/SenatorMenendez/status/936739835880136705?s=17
Here's some more of the rozzer bashing articles from today
MPs attack police over computer porn leaks amid Damian Green row - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mps-attack-police-over-computer-porn-leaks-damian-green-6glqr09zt
Damian Green pornography affair reopens old Plebgate wounds for Tories - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/damian-green-pornography-affair-reopens-old-andrew-mitchell-plebgate-wounds-9nw3zwmmf
Matthew Parris - Police are waging a vendetta to destroy Green. Whether the deputy PM downloaded porn is less of a moral outrage than the sinister behaviour of former Met officers
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/police-are-waging-a-vendetta-to-destroy-green-wxr296jgd
I’d take a good guess that ‘friends’ of a certain newspaper editor former politician might have something to do with it, or possibly ‘friends’ of a former DPP who knows the case well and now has a somewhat more political job...
Ex-police officers who leaked Damian Green allegations 'breached code of conduct', former Government legal chief says - https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/expolice-officers-who-leaked-damian-green-allegations-breached-code-of-conduct-former-government-a3708476.html
Damian Green and Scotland Yard faced questions today after a retired detective claimed he found “thousands” of pornographic images on the Cabinet minister’s computer.
The allegation heaped further pressure on Theresa May’s embattled deputy. However, it also left Scotland Yard in the spotlight about its handling of personal data obtained in investigations.
Lord Carlile, the former watchdog over anti-terror laws, called on Met chief Cressida Dick to exert her “authority” and take control of the force’s handling of the controversy.
He told the Standard it was “unacceptable” for former officers to dredge up old evidence to embarrass people. Ex-Cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell said it was an attempt to “blacken” Mr Green’s name.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/tory-war-with-met-police-over-thousands-of-pornographic-images-on-computer-of-damian-green-a3707376.html
'Hounding' Damian Green over pornography allegations 'completely wrong', MP Andrew Mitchell says https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/hounding-damian-green-over-pornography-allegations-completely-wrong-mp-says-a3707061.html
It is simply not possible to say with any certainty whether or not Mr Green was lying when he made his original statement. Look at that statement and you will see how both his statement and the police’s original revelations could be consistent with each other. And why were those original revelations made? No conceivable public interest in doing so. There was no suggestion of a breach of any law. And yet this Mr Lewis is now claiming that he is a whistleblower and entitled to breach confidentiality on the basis of Green’s dishonesty when that has never been established in the first place and when the public interet defence is thin at best. Furthermore, how much credit should one give to Mr Lewis’s claims when he has admitted taking potentially relevant evidence without authority and not complying with instructions?
Second, the police investigate breaches of the criminal law. Disciplinary matters are not for them. Nor standards of moral decency. It is not that there should be no standards but that it is not the job of the police to establish or monitor them let alone use them as a sword to defend a colleague.
While I agree that the ex-rozzers have a case to answer over this, I do not like the way that Tories are trying to use this to deflect from the actions of Green.
The allegations against Green are in many ways a separate issue. Indeed as Sandy notes, one of the things these officers have done is deflect attention away from them.
I am increasingly concerned that sensible Tories are joining in attacks on the institutions of democracy, including not only the police, but also the judicary, parliament, and even professions like my own, and Civil Service, but also the teachers and universities. Formerly these were only under attack from the Trotskyite left.
It doesn't bode well for the stability of our democratic infrastructure.
But, we have a separate issue here: (1) it was obtained by the police under highly dubious circumstances (2) it was not reported to the Parlaimentary authorities at the time (probably correctly as it happens given the circumstances) (3) it is now being used in a way that appears unlawful to damage him over an unrelated matter in such a way that it could appear to be motivated by malice.
You don't have to be an anarchist or a Tory to say the way the police have behaved absolutely stinks.
Miss Cyclefree, hmm. I do think women rather overplay their virtue in such cases. Not to mention, they're the gender supporting the sex toy industry.
Cameron is now President of Alzheimer's UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42207100
https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/936864840240398337
But the point is that it will not be possible to establish that Green has lied for the reasons I have put downthread. So what these two policemen are doing is impugning a man’s character with no real possibility for him to clear his name. That is quite wrong. These policemen have used material apparently obtained in the course of one investigation for another purpose wholly unconnected to the original investigation. Furthermore, they have abused their powers of seizure by using the material gained for their own, apoarently, private reasons.
These are abuses of power. And they should concern us all, whether we are trade unionists, Irishmen fitted up for crimes we did not commit, football fans or MPs. Or anyone else frankly.
A few years ago, the son of a friend of mine was picked up by the police when he was trying to commit suicide. He was later detained in a mental hospital to receive treatment. There is a record of what the police did. They are to be congratulated for the help they gave to a very troubled young man, who is now putting his life back together. Now imagine if he were to become a public figure and someone in the police sought to use this incident to discredit him years later.
We must have absolute confidence that those in authority with powers over us do not abuse those powers and do not misuse confidential and sensitive information they obtain as a result of exercising those powers. Forget data protection. This is much more serious.
Why, of all the notebooks Mr Lewis must have filled during his career, was this one the only one he kept? Why was the extensive pornography he claims he found not mentioned in his 2008 report?
Jack be nimble Jack be quick Jack jump over the candlestick.
If men spent a bit less time looking at pornography and a bit more focusing on real women, perhaps we might not need sex toys.......