This would be the same Blair who is the only Labour leader ever to have won 3 successive general elections, 2 of which by landslides? This would also be the same Corbyn who lost the 2017 general election even if he did a bit better than he was expected to?
Corbyn is going to go down in history as the worst Labour leader of all time-and this will be true, even in the unlikely event of him forming a minority government after the next election. He is so extreme, and so inept and so incompetent and so ideologically inflexible that a few months of him would be quite enough to send the voters fleeing to the Tories for a generation.
To be fair to Corbyn he is a better Labour leader than Ed Miliband, Brown, Foot, Callaghan and Gaitskill and most of the pre WW2 leaders were but he is a worse leader thsn Attlee, Wilson, Blair and maybe even Kinnock were.
We all remember the EdStone...and for that Miliband junior must rank as the most appalling leader of Labour in memory.
Callaghan is a bit too young for me, though I did meet him once, and I think he wasn't really given much of a chance to show his true self
In my lifetime I think Foot was worst (though I was too young to really remember him) with Ed Miliband secomd worst.
Callaghan was unlucky to take over when the unions were really flexing their muscles and to be fair to him he did try and take sensible decisions on the public finances.
It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest.
It took Thatcher to control the unions after Wilson, Heath and Callaghan all failed to do so
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.
But pure liberals (like pure free marketeers and pure socialists) are not common in the general electorate. People have become much more socially liberal on sexual matters, but they're often quite interventionist in economics and un-liberal on crime.
But I'm not sure that the labels take us far any more. People are mostly quite conflicted themselves.
The voters are however allowed to be conflicted; it's politicians who are supposed to offer coherent and consistent ideological platforms. Otherwise it's just one set of confused managers compared to another.
That's interesting but is it true? I think a little doubt and flexibility in politicians is a good thing in our uncertain world, because it's not obvious that any of our ideologies work quite as we'd like. That doesn't mean that they should be confused managers, but a lot of political decisions are more"what works?" rather than "what does our ideology say?" I think we badly need a period of adjustment in a socialist direction, so I like the Corbyn project and I trust him to try to deliver it - but I'd prefer him to concede that not everything will be easy, and some flexibility in practice will be needed.
I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.
But pure liberals (like pure free marketeers and pure socialists) are not common in the general electorate. People have become much more socially liberal on sexual matters, but they're often quite interventionist in economics and un-liberal on crime.
But I'm not sure that the labels take us far any more. People are mostly quite conflicted themselves.
The voters are however allowed to be conflicted; it's politicians who are supposed to offer coherent and consistent ideological platforms. Otherwise it's just one set of confused managers compared to another.
I don't think parties need to be consistent ideologically. All parties are coalitions of interests, and few of us, including politicians, are a perfect match.
I am very dry on financial matters, though very liberal on social values. I support the welfare state, but think nationalisation obselete. I favour participation in pan national organisations working towards peaceful co-operation. I am really in the mainstream of European Social Democracy. There are MPs in each party that I would vote for, and in each there are others that are anathema to me.
Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.
Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.
Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
Rentoul once claimed that his epiphany with Blair came during with the Iraq invasion: he hadn't much liked Tony until that point, but that made him realize what a brave, astute and principled statesman Tony really was.
It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest. ******
It took Thatcher to control the unions after Wilson, Heath and Callaghan all failed to do so ******
Mr. Felix, I've been pondering your Cameron comment. It's an interesting one to consider, both generally (ie a centrist sort of chap who performs well in front of the cameras) and specifically (being PM, he has baggage, including with the referendum).
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.
But pure liberals (like pure free marketeers and pure socialists) are not common in the general electorate. People have become much more socially liberal on sexual matters, but they're often quite interventionist in economics and un-liberal on crime.
But I'm not sure that the labels take us far any more. People are mostly quite conflicted themselves.
The voters are however allowed to be conflicted; it's politicians who are supposed to offer coherent and consistent ideological platforms. Otherwise it's just one set of confused managers compared to another.
That's interesting but is it true? I think a little doubt and flexibility in politicians is a good thing in our uncertain world, because it's not obvious that any of our ideologies work quite as we'd like. That doesn't mean that they should be confused managers, but a lot of political decisions are more"what works?" rather than "what does our ideology say?" I think we badly need a period of adjustment in a socialist direction, so I like the Corbyn project and I trust him to try to deliver it - but I'd prefer him to concede that not everything will be easy, and some flexibility in practice will be needed.
Yes, no problem with that, Nick. Although politics in practice doesn't tend to favour the doubtful!
The point I was trying to make is that a political platform ought to hang together and be based on some sort of coherent world view, and not just be a random collection of policies. Of course within this there will be individuals with particular nuances or disagreements reflecting their background and experiences.
Going forward I think the Conservatives are going to struggle the most, as making Brexit work, particularly for those that supported it, directs towards a level of economic intervention with which they have traditionally been unfamiliar, at least since the 1960s.
It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest. ******
It took Thatcher to control the unions after Wilson, Heath and Callaghan all failed to do so ******
Callaghan had no time for this, being much closer to the unions than either Castle or Wilson. When he took over in 1976, he sacked her.
Yes - that is true and Callaghan did in the end get his comeuppance!
Though perhaps we threw out the baby with the bathwater.
No one likes strikes, but trade unionism greatly helped ordinary working people across developed countries counter exploitative employers.
The unions greatly improved the lot of workers in areas from improved pay, safety at work, holidays, sick leave and stability of employment.
There was some very poor industrial relations in Britain in the Seventies, particularly from politically driven trade unionists such as Red Robbo or Scargill, but management was often as unreasonable.
I think the decline of living standard of British workers lagging the decline of union membership by a decade or so is related. I also think that stronger unions are the answer to many of the abuses of the gig economy.
Dr. Foxinsox, the gig economy is a conundrum indeed.
Whilst I think that report earlier this year calling for an end to hard currency was (in that regard) demented, the line about a third employment category alongside employed and self-employed could be a sensible approach.
For all the criticism, much of it justified, the gig economy does enable flexible working and adaptive business.
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
So was I unaware of it. That's an incredible figure.
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
So was I unaware of it. That's an incredible figure.
Who was doing the bombing? Or was it a mixture?
Terrorism has increased across Western Europe, post 2010, but is still well below 1970's levels.
Dr. Foxinsox, the gig economy is a conundrum indeed.
Whilst I think that report earlier this year calling for an end to hard currency was (in that regard) demented, the line about a third employment category alongside employed and self-employed could be a sensible approach.
For all the criticism, much of it justified, the gig economy does enable flexible working and adaptive business.
Yrs, and Mrs Fox enjoys a ZHC as she can be very flexible over childcare and also elderly parents. It works well for us as she is always in demand as a Theatre Nurse, and we have my salary to smooth things.
Not everyone on a ZHC is so well suited and many are exploited. A union that was a counterweight to such employers could well be the advocate that they need.
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
So was I unaware of it. That's an incredible figure.
The most common seems to have been someone I've never heard of called the Earth Liberation Front, who apparently tried to set fire to car dealers outlets etc. Nobody got killed, which may be why media coverage was so limited that we hadn't heard of it.
I too agree that the fault-lines of politics are shifting, particularly the decline in class as a driver of behaviour. But the small-letter liberal v conservative dimension remains as alive as ever, and it is becoming harder to see Labour being an effective champion for liberal values given how conflicted it is by its traditions and base.
But pure liberals (like pure free marketeers and pure socialists) are not common in the general electorate. People have become much more socially liberal on sexual matters, but they're often quite interventionist in economics and un-liberal on crime.
But I'm not sure that the labels take us far any more. People are mostly quite conflicted themselves.
The voters are however allowed to be conflicted; it's politicians who are supposed to offer coherent and consistent ideological platforms. Otherwise it's just one set of confused managers compared to another.
That's interesting but is it true? I think a little doubt and flexibility in politicians is a good thing in our uncertain world, because it's not obvious that any of our ideologies work quite as we'd like. That doesn't mean that they should be confused managers, but a lot of political decisions are more"what works?" rather than "what does our ideology say?" I think we badly need a period of adjustment in a socialist direction, so I like the Corbyn project and I trust him to try to deliver it - but I'd prefer him to concede that not everything will be easy, and some flexibility in practice will be needed.
Yes, no problem with that, Nick. Although politics in practice doesn't tend to favour the doubtful!
The point I was trying to make is that a political platform ought to hang together and be based on some sort of coherent world view, and not just be a random collection of policies. Of course within this there will be individuals with particular nuances or disagreements reflecting their background and experiences.
Going forward I think the Conservatives are going to struggle the most, as making Brexit work, particularly for those that supported it, directs towards a level of economic intervention with which they have traditionally been unfamiliar, at least since the 1960s.
IMHO, polling suggests that the Leave camp and the Remain camp each have coherent world outlook. But, it doesn't quite match the division between Conservative and Labour.
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
So was I unaware of it. That's an incredible figure.
The most common seems to have been someone I've never heard of called the Earth Liberation Front, who apparently tried to set fire to car dealers outlets etc. Nobody got killed, which may be why media coverage was so limited that we hadn't heard of it.
Thank you. A most intriguing article that lays things out very clearly.
I suppose we're all in the habit of thinking of terrrorism as bombs going off or more recently truck attacks - or at least, I have been. To my shame, it never occurred to me that the shooting of abortion doctors is a form of terrorism even though once stated it is blindingly obvious.
It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest. ******
It took Thatcher to control the unions after Wilson, Heath and Callaghan all failed to do so ******
Callaghan had no time for this, being much closer to the unions than either Castle or Wilson. When he took over in 1976, he sacked her.
Yes - that is true and Callaghan did in the end get his comeuppance!
Though perhaps we threw out the baby with the bathwater.
No one likes strikes, but trade unionism greatly helped ordinary working people across developed countries counter exploitative employers.
The unions greatly improved the lot of workers in areas from improved pay, safety at work, holidays, sick leave and stability of employment.
There was some very poor industrial relations in Britain in the Seventies, particularly from politically driven trade unionists such as Red Robbo or Scargill, but management was often as unreasonable.
I think the decline of living standard of British workers lagging the decline of union membership by a decade or so is related. I also think that stronger unions are the answer to many of the abuses of the gig economy.
Had Wilson not noticed his declining memory and resigned in 1976, Thatcher's 1979 majority could have been ~0. This assumes that he and Castle had continued their work and forced the unions to moderate their behaviour.
Another Lib-Lab pact in 1979? If there had been, I don't think the UK would have got into a Falklands war. (Ridley had been close to signing a sale & leaseback document before things went wrong so I assume Labour would have done the same rather sooner, given the legal advice that the UK didn't really have a good title.)
With Thatcher's policy of 'eliminating the enemy', the unions really got their comeuppance. But the rail unions kept their bargaining power and today train drivers earn more than bus drivers who actually have to steer the vehicle around bends, LOL. Something between that and the minimum wage would be seen as fair for many jobs.
Everything is brutally polarised in politics right now and not just in this country. The chasm between the two seems to be growing wider and it is alarming. We are not in the 1930s but there are some increasingly uncomfortable parallels with the years from 1900 to 1914.
It is rather a myth that the unions were running amok in the Callaghan years. Until the Ford Motor strike in Autumn 1978 which was then followed by the Winter of Discontent in January & February 1979 the industrial scene had been largely peaceful since Wilson returned to office in March 1974. The way the Callaghan Government ended has coloured perceptions of that period as a whole. The Heath Government of the early to mid 70s and the earlier Wilson Government in the late 60s saw much more industrial unrest. ******
It took Thatcher to control the unions after Wilson, Heath and Callaghan all failed to do so ******
Callaghan had no time for this, being much closer to the unions than either Castle or Wilson. When he took over in 1976, he sacked her.
Yes - that is true and Callaghan did in the end get his comeuppance!
Though perhaps we threw out the baby with the bathwater.
No one likes strikes, but trade unionism greatly helped ordinary working people across developed countries counter exploitative employers.
The unions greatly
Had Wilson not noticed his declining memory and resigned in 1976, Thatcher's 1979 majority could have been ~0. This assumes that he and Castle had continued their work and forced the unions to moderate their behaviour.
Another Lib-Lab pact in 1979? If there had been, I don't think the UK would have got into a Falklands war. (Ridley had been close to signing a sale & leaseback document before things went wrong so I assume Labour would have done the same rather sooner, given the legal advice that the UK didn't really have a good title.)
With Thatcher's policy of 'eliminating the enemy', the unions really got their comeuppance. But the rail unions kept their bargaining power and today train drivers earn more than bus drivers who actually have to steer the vehicle around bends, LOL. Something between that and the minimum wage would be seen as fair for many jobs.
May clearly blew it by calling an early election this year, but arguably Callaghan made a similarly poor decision by not calling an October election in 1978.
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
May clearly blew it by calling an early election this year, but arguably Callaghan made a similarly poor decision by not calling an October election in 1978.
I don't think the decision to call an election was necessarily unsound in itself. It was logical in the circumstances although even at the time I was not happy that it had been called (if you say you support fixed term parliaments, do not then renege to take advantage of the polls. It looks bad).
The dreadful campaign she ran, on the other hand...
May clearly blew it by calling an early election this year, but arguably Callaghan made a similarly poor decision by not calling an October election in 1978.
I don't think the decision to call an election was necessarily unsound in itself. It was logical in the circumstances although even at the time I was not happy that it had been called (if you say you support fixed term parliaments, do not then renege to take advantage of the polls. It looks bad).
The dreadful campaign she ran, on the other hand...
The very act of calling the election tarnished May's image with a population still getting to grips with her. But what they thought they knew about her was that she was straight-talking - and if she said she wouldn't hold an election, then she wouldn't.
Sadly, the Tory Party election machine had also bought into it. It was caught utterly unprepared.
May clearly blew it by calling an early election this year, but arguably Callaghan made a similarly poor decision by not calling an October election in 1978.
I don't think the decision to call an election was necessarily unsound in itself. It was logical in the circumstances although even at the time I was not happy that it had been called (if you say you support fixed term parliaments, do not then renege to take advantage of the polls. It looks bad).
The dreadful campaign she ran, on the other hand...
The very act of calling the election tarnished May's image with a population still getting to grips with her. But what they thought they knew about her was that she was straight-talking - and if she said she wouldn't hold an election, then she wouldn't.
Sadly, the Tory Party election machine had also bought into it. It was caught utterly unprepared.
Tories underestimated the edge Cameron gave them. They missed his disarming persona and plumped for someone a bit rubbish and policies to rally the Labour troops
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
I agree, it was astonishing.
Leicester vs Burnley was fun, Great goalkeeping there too, by Burnley. Pope, I think.
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
So was I unaware of it. That's an incredible figure.
Who was doing the bombing? Or was it a mixture?
I think it was a wide mixture. There were plenty of far left or radical groups like the Weather Underground and the Symbionese Liberation Army of Patty Hurst fame. Then there were the various Independence movements, most notably the Puerto Rican Separatists. There was the Jewish Defence League which bombed targets it considered anti-Semitic. There were also lots of individuals out to attack the Government or big business including environmental groups, general anti-government types and those opposed to various big businesses.
Nor were these just minor attacks. If you look at the lists there are regularly people killed, the worst being the 1975 attack at La Guardia which killed 11 and which was never solved.
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
So was I unaware of it. That's an incredible figure.
The most common seems to have been someone I've never heard of called the Earth Liberation Front, who apparently tried to set fire to car dealers outlets etc. Nobody got killed, which may be why media coverage was so limited that we hadn't heard of it.
Thank you. A most intriguing article that lays things out very clearly.
I suppose we're all in the habit of thinking of terrrorism as bombs going off or more recently truck attacks - or at least, I have been. To my shame, it never occurred to me that the shooting of abortion doctors is a form of terrorism even though once stated it is blindingly obvious.
The 2500 I quoted were all specifically bomb attacks.
I would suppose that the question of voting Conservative or Labour didn't actually ask if the questionees were going to vote.... My feeling of Tory MP's and supporters are that they are loyal to the country, and to those who are effective in doing so, unfortunately.......
Mr. Felix, I've been pondering your Cameron comment. It's an interesting one to consider, both generally (ie a centrist sort of chap who performs well in front of the cameras) and specifically (being PM, he has baggage, including with the referendum).
Undoubtedly, he'd be miles better than May.
Yes I doubt he'd want to but he is head and shoulders above anyone in any party of the current lot.
I would suppose that the question of voting Conservative or Labour didn't actually ask if the questionees were going to vote.... My feeling of Tory MP's and supporters are that they are loyal to the country, and to those who are effective in doing so, unfortunately.......
Where as the Labour Party has around 500,000 members ready and primed for a snap GE, with funds ready and this time, available to walk the streets, knock the doors, push pamphlets and fliers through letter boxes, run call centres, use social media platforms...
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
David de Gea is the best goalkeeper I have ever seen in the flesh. Just wish we hadn't given United a two goal lead.
“The special powers which citizens confer on police officers are inseparable from the obligations of special trust placed in police officers to enable them to do their duty,”
“That trust requires every police officer to respect and keep confidential information which they obtain in the course of their duties and which is irrelevant to their inquiries and discloses no criminal conduct.
“The obligation of confidentiality, and the duty not to break trust, is an enduring one. It does not end when a police officer retires.”
A very damning report issued regarding the performance of the Electoral Registration Office at Newcastle under Lyme at the 2017 General Election. Whilst the election apparently cannot be rerun, would not the individual voters deprived of their right to vote have grounds for litigation against the Local Authority?
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
What does a goalkeeper have to do to get the Man of the Match award ?
It's always 'brave' to appoint a supporter of another party as an advisor, as Labour too found during its term of office. But you can't fault his critique that, despite her various speeches about unfairness and the JAMs, May has singularly failed to come up with an agenda to tackle the problem.
You also can't fault the paper for balance, with the first sentence of each article plunging each respective major party into apparent crisis.
The point is that there was little industrial conflict over the period March 74 to Autumn 78 - with the exception of a Firemans' strike during the 77/78 Winter.
Excuse me kind of taking this off topic but the mention of the strife of the 1970s reminded me of an amazing comment made on the Sky Arts series 'The Seventies' a few nights ago.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
So was I unaware of it. That's an incredible figure.
Who was doing the bombing? Or was it a mixture?
I think it was a wide mixture. There were plenty of far left or radical groups like the Weather Underground and the Symbionese Liberation Army of Patty Hurst fame. Then there were the various Independence movements, most notably the Puerto Rican Separatists. There was the Jewish Defence League which bombed targets it considered anti-Semitic. There were also lots of individuals out to attack the Government or big business including environmental groups, general anti-government types and those opposed to various big businesses.
Nor were these just minor attacks. If you look at the lists there are regularly people killed, the worst being the 1975 attack at La Guardia which killed 11 and which was never solved.
And in Europe we had the Red Brigades, Baader Meinhof, ETA and, of course, the PIRA. Terrorist outrages were much more common and more serious than in recent years - several prominent German and Italian business leaders were killed by Baader Meinhof and the Red Brigades, the Prime Minister of Spain was assassinated by ETA in 1973 and the PIRA assassinated a number of prominent figures including Lord Mountbatten , Airey Neave MP and the British Ambassador to Ireland, Christopher Ewart Biggs. In the early 1960s the French President, De Gaulle, narrowly escaped a similar fate by an earlier terrorist group, the OAS. It was a much more violent age.
Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.
Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.
Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
I had no idea he was now a Conservative. I thought he was a Labour supporter on the right of the party. Well that totally changes how I see some of his tweets now!
I thought he was always a conservative. His only dalliance with Labour was when he was worshiping the Blair God.
May clearly blew it by calling an early election this year, but arguably Callaghan made a similarly poor decision by not calling an October election in 1978.
I don't think the decision to call an election was necessarily unsound in itself. It was logical in the circumstances although even at the time I was not happy that it had been called (if you say you support fixed term parliaments, do not then renege to take advantage of the polls. It looks bad).
The dreadful campaign she ran, on the other hand...
The very act of calling the election tarnished May's image with a population still getting to grips with her. But what they thought they knew about her was that she was straight-talking - and if she said she wouldn't hold an election, then she wouldn't.
Sadly, the Tory Party election machine had also bought into it. It was caught utterly unprepared.
Tories underestimated the edge Cameron gave them. They missed his disarming persona and plumped for someone a bit rubbish and policies to rally the Labour troops
Not with all polls, Survation's final poll had the Tories just 1% ahead and Yougov's final poll had a 7% Tory lead. All polls had the Tories lead slashed after May's dementia tax own goal, unlikely to be repeated next time and others overcorrected for Labour after undercorrecting for them in 2015 and are back to more raw data polling.
Disagree that Labour didn’t try to win over Tory voters under Ed Miliband - at one point he was flirting with that Blue Labour strategy especially the parts on immigration and welfare reform, and certainly Labour tried to talk ‘tough’ on immigration and welfare in a bid to win over Conservative voters. The reality is, triangulation in this political climate is no longer effective. You cannot outflank the Tories nor UKIP on issues such as immigration and welfare. Also, for all the talk of winning over swing voters, Corbyn actually won marginals despite being more left wing than Ed Miliband, so they did gain some swing voters.
To be more precise, Corbyn brought on many non-voters and some Tories were put off by May.
Disagree that Labour didn’t try to win over Tory voters under Ed Miliband - at one point he was flirting with that Blue Labour strategy especially the parts on immigration and welfare reform, and certainly Labour tried to talk ‘tough’ on immigration and welfare in a bid to win over Conservative voters. The reality is, triangulation in this political climate is no longer effective. You cannot outflank the Tories nor UKIP on issues such as immigration and welfare. Also, for all the talk of winning over swing voters, Corbyn actually won marginals despite being more left wing than Ed Miliband, so they did gain some swing voters.
To be more precise, Corbyn brought on many non-voters and some Tories were put off by May.
I would suppose that the question of voting Conservative or Labour didn't actually ask if the questionees were going to vote.... My feeling of Tory MP's and supporters are that they are loyal to the country, and to those who are effective in doing so, unfortunately.......
Where as the Labour Party has around 500,000 members ready and primed for a snap GE, with funds ready and this time, available to walk the streets, knock the doors, push pamphlets and fliers through letter boxes, run call centres, use social media platforms...
The Labour Party had all that in June too and still failed to win
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
What does a goalkeeper have to do to get the Man of the Match award ?
The MOM to Linguard was surreal. According to reports De Gea made 33 saves
Presumably John Rentoul and his friend don’t realise that post-Iraq world, his idea of the Labour Party has gradually lost credibility, which is a reason why we have Corbynism in the first place. Blair is one of the most reviled politicians in this country. IIRC even when Corbyn was at his most unpopular he was still more popular than Blair. Yet he really thinks the problem was only Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.
Like plato used to do here, Rentoul has played the "former Labour voter" to the point that he should really give it a rest. As I understand it, he's a Conservative and has been for some time. No reason why he shouldn't be, but it makes him less than useful as a guide to Labour, in the same way as you wouldn't look to Polly Toynbee to advise on Conservative direction.
Like you, I think the tide ha moved away from the type of Labour politics that he and Tony Blair espoused. Many people on all sides of politics haven't really noticed that the greeat ideological battles of the 20th century have disappeared. They think that nothing in politics demonstrably works for them, though they draw different conclusions from that.
I had no idea he was now a Conservative. I thought he was a Labour supporter on the right of the party. Well that totally changes how I see some of his tweets now!
I thought he was always a conservative. His only dalliance with Labour was when he was worshiping the Blair God.
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
What does a goalkeeper have to do to get the Man of the Match award ?
The MOM to Linguard was surreal. According to reports De Gea made 33 saves
Giving it to de Gea would have meant acknowledging that Arsenal played quite well!
Disagree that Labour didn’t try to win over Tory voters under Ed Miliband - at one point he was flirting with that Blue Labour strategy especially the parts on immigration and welfare reform, and certainly Labour tried to talk ‘tough’ on immigration and welfare in a bid to win over Conservative voters. The reality is, triangulation in this political climate is no longer effective. You cannot outflank the Tories nor UKIP on issues such as immigration and welfare. Also, for all the talk of winning over swing voters, Corbyn actually won marginals despite being more left wing than Ed Miliband, so they did gain some swing voters.
To be more precise, Corbyn brought on many non-voters and some Tories were put off by May.
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
What does a goalkeeper have to do to get the Man of the Match award ?
The MOM to Linguard was surreal. According to reports De Gea made 33 saves
Giving it to de Gea would have meant acknowledging that Arsenal played quite well!
Arsenal played very well and must be very frustrated with their defence
Disagree that Labour didn’t try to win over Tory voters under Ed Miliband - at one point he was flirting with that Blue Labour strategy especially the parts on immigration and welfare reform, and certainly Labour tried to talk ‘tough’ on immigration and welfare in a bid to win over Conservative voters. The reality is, triangulation in this political climate is no longer effective. You cannot outflank the Tories nor UKIP on issues such as immigration and welfare. Also, for all the talk of winning over swing voters, Corbyn actually won marginals despite being more left wing than Ed Miliband, so they did gain some swing voters.
To be more precise, Corbyn brought on many non-voters and some Tories were put off by May.
Didn't May get more votes than Corbyn?
Did I say she didn't ? For someone with a PhD, you can be dumb.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Data protection laws perhaps?
I have not read any such suggestion anywhere. Not even Tory newspapers. They are calling for current police officers to do something, otherwise, legislation will have to be passed.
All because of some porno in a House of Commons laptop.
I know it is off topic but the Arsenal v Utd match at the Emirates tonight was one of the most amazing matches I can recall. And as for David de Gea he was in the supernatural class with Utd winning 3 -1
What does a goalkeeper have to do to get the Man of the Match award ?
The MOM to Linguard was surreal. According to reports De Gea made 33 saves
Giving it to de Gea would have meant acknowledging that Arsenal played quite well!
Arsenal played very well and must be very frustrated with their defence
They've been behaving themselves recently.
The issue is more mental than anything else. It was obvious after a couple of minutes that United were pushing up the pitch and pressing. Arsenal aren't very good at analysing the situation and saying "okay, we're just going to sit tight for 20 minutes and not do anything stupid." Sometimes I get the feeling that they think they have to try to win the game in the first 20 minutes.
I wonder what Sunil will come up with now. HYUFD, the resident Tory, now that Fitalass does not contribute much will have something to say about Survation's suitability.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Data protection laws perhaps?
I have not read any such suggestion anywhere. Not even Tory newspapers. They are calling for current police officers to do something, otherwise, legislation will have to be passed.
All because of some porno in a House of Commons laptop.
I though Dominic Grieve made that point on Newsnight either yesterday or the day before.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Not a good look for the Police
Nor is looking at porn on a work computer , that would break any internet usage policies in any public sector organisation.
Though even that Survation poll would see Labour just short of an overall majority and another hung Parliament with Labour on 316 seats and the Tories on 262 seats and the LDs on 14 seats.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Not a good look for the Police
Nor is looking at porn on a work computer , that would break any internet usage policies in any public sector organisation.
Yeah, but a far worse look for the police if it looks as though they are seeking to undermine a cabinet minister by releasing information that isn't supposed to be in the public domain.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Not a good look for the Police
Nor is looking at porn on a work computer , that would break any internet usage policies in any public sector organisation.
I sacked a Salesperson for having porn in a company mobile phone because it was against our company policy. He didn't even protest.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Not a good look for the Police
Nor is looking at porn on a work computer , that would break any internet usage policies in any public sector organisation.
Yeah, but a far worse look for the police if it looks as though they are seeking to undermine a cabinet minister by releasing information that isn't supposed to be in the public domain.
One rule for ordinary Joe and another for MPs then , anyone in the public sector would be suspended pending an investigation.
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Not a good look for the Police
Nor is looking at porn on a work computer , that would break any internet usage policies in any public sector organisation.
Two things
1) he denies it and unless it is proven he should not resign over it
2) He has much more of a problem with the harrasment allegations
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Not a good look for the Police
Nor is looking at porn on a work computer , that would break any internet usage policies in any public sector organisation.
Yeah, but a far worse look for the police if it looks as though they are seeking to undermine a cabinet minister by releasing information that isn't supposed to be in the public domain.
One rule for ordinary Joe and another for MPs then , anyone in the public sector would be suspended pending an investigation.
I suspect any self employed person could watch porn on their work computer all day without having any repercussions (apart from obviously not getting any work done).
Has any ex-police officer actually broken the law over alleged "legal" pornography in Green House of Commons laptop ?
Seems the Police themselves are attacking the motives and they have breached their Police code. One thing that seems certain Green will not resign over this but it will depend on whether he has breached the Minsterial code on the other matter of harrasement.
Not a good look for the Police
Nor is looking at porn on a work computer , that would break any internet usage policies in any public sector organisation.
I sacked a Salesperson for having porn in a company mobile phone because it was against our company policy. He didn't even protest.
Comments
I am very dry on financial matters, though very liberal on social values. I support the welfare state, but think nationalisation obselete. I favour participation in pan national organisations working towards peaceful co-operation. I am really in the mainstream of European Social Democracy. There are MPs in each party that I would vote for, and in each there are others that are anathema to me.
James Kirkup"
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/12/come-back-david-cameron/
Undoubtedly, he'd be miles better than May.
They said that in one year (I believe it was 1972) there were over 1,000 terrorist bombings in the US. They were talking about how common they were to the extent that they basically stopped being news. (Looking it up I see there were over 2500 terrorist bombings in 18 months in 1971/72 averaging out at 5 a day.)
I must admit I was completely unaware of this and it seems a stunning figure in the context of today's preoccupation with terrorism.
The point I was trying to make is that a political platform ought to hang together and be based on some sort of coherent world view, and not just be a random collection of policies. Of course within this there will be individuals with particular nuances or disagreements reflecting their background and experiences.
Going forward I think the Conservatives are going to struggle the most, as making Brexit work, particularly for those that supported it, directs towards a level of economic intervention with which they have traditionally been unfamiliar, at least since the 1960s.
No one likes strikes, but trade unionism greatly helped ordinary working people across developed countries counter exploitative employers.
The unions greatly improved the lot of workers in areas from improved pay, safety at work, holidays, sick leave and stability of employment.
There was some very poor industrial relations in Britain in the Seventies, particularly from politically driven trade unionists such as Red Robbo or Scargill, but management was often as unreasonable.
I think the decline of living standard of British workers lagging the decline of union membership by a decade or so is related. I also think that stronger unions are the answer to many of the abuses of the gig economy.
Whilst I think that report earlier this year calling for an end to hard currency was (in that regard) demented, the line about a third employment category alongside employed and self-employed could be a sensible approach.
For all the criticism, much of it justified, the gig economy does enable flexible working and adaptive business.
Who was doing the bombing? Or was it a mixture?
But in general, people are more worried about being victims of crime than being victims of police misconduct.
https://twitter.com/benjaminwittes/status/937022847242915840?s=17
Not everyone on a ZHC is so well suited and many are exploited. A union that was a counterweight to such employers could well be the advocate that they need.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/09/11/nine-facts-about-terrorism-in-the-united-states-since-911/?utm_term=.04e569ddd2af
The most common seems to have been someone I've never heard of called the Earth Liberation Front, who apparently tried to set fire to car dealers outlets etc. Nobody got killed, which may be why media coverage was so limited that we hadn't heard of it.
If so ....
https://www.tesla.com/roadster/
The current world's fastest car - Koenigsegg has a max of ~ 1500 nm of torque.
This will have 10,000 !
Game changer.
I suppose we're all in the habit of thinking of terrrorism as bombs going off or more recently truck attacks - or at least, I have been. To my shame, it never occurred to me that the shooting of abortion doctors is a form of terrorism even though once stated it is blindingly obvious.
That is all.
Another Lib-Lab pact in 1979? If there had been, I don't think the UK would have got into a Falklands war. (Ridley had been close to signing a sale & leaseback document before things went wrong so I assume Labour would have done the same rather sooner, given the legal advice that the UK didn't really have a good title.)
With Thatcher's policy of 'eliminating the enemy', the unions really got their comeuppance. But the rail unions kept their bargaining power and today train drivers earn more than bus drivers who actually have to steer the vehicle around bends, LOL. Something between that and the minimum wage would be seen as fair for many jobs.
The government holds up for a while
Even the Tories in 1992 managed 7 months or so
The dreadful campaign she ran, on the other hand...
and if she said she wouldn't hold an election, then she wouldn't.
Sadly, the Tory Party election machine had also bought into it. It was caught utterly unprepared.
Leicester vs Burnley was fun, Great goalkeeping there too, by Burnley. Pope, I think.
Nor were these just minor attacks. If you look at the lists there are regularly people killed, the worst being the 1975 attack at La Guardia which killed 11 and which was never solved.
What has he said?
“The special powers which citizens confer on police officers are inseparable from the obligations of special trust placed in police officers to enable them to do their duty,”
“That trust requires every police officer to respect and keep confidential information which they obtain in the course of their duties and which is irrelevant to their inquiries and discloses no criminal conduct.
“The obligation of confidentiality, and the duty not to break trust, is an enduring one. It does not end when a police officer retires.”
You also can't fault the paper for balance, with the first sentence of each article plunging each respective major party into apparent crisis.
He told Glastonbury.
Not a good look for the Police
LAB 45% CON 37% LD 6%
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5139817/Pollster-Jeremy-Corbyns-Labour-eight-point-lead.html
All because of some porno in a House of Commons laptop.
The issue is more mental than anything else. It was obvious after a couple of minutes that United were pushing up the pitch and pressing. Arsenal aren't very good at analysing the situation and saying "okay, we're just going to sit tight for 20 minutes and not do anything stupid." Sometimes I get the feeling that they think they have to try to win the game in the first 20 minutes.
1) he denies it and unless it is proven he should not resign over it
2) He has much more of a problem with the harrasment allegations